How much AGEs are we humans adapted to?

[goodsamaritan]

Of course, cooking causes toxins. But the more important question is: How much of these toxins can be handled by the human body?

This is relevant to my family.  I'm on raw paleo diet. My first born son is on raw paleo diet.  And I have 2 younger kids on cooked paleo diet... sometimes raw.  So I'd like to optimize cooking methods to less AGEs.

Any thoughts?  How much AGEs are we humans adapted to?

Some people even say that AGEs are exaggerated in its detrimental effect on humans.

[TylerDurden]

There are very, very tiny amounts in even the freshest raw foods, which the human body can deal with on a daily basis. There are larger amounts in foods from animals/plants raised on unhealthy diets/nutrients, so it is vaguely possible that meats from a wild animal or veg from a wild plant might have none. Whatever the case, the increased amounts of AGEs from boiled foods or worse cannot be dealt with by the human body.


There is no adaptation to AGEs per se. Only a gradual buildup of AGEs which slowly wears the human body down, causing increased rates of alzheimer's, arthritis etc.

[ys]

My personal opinion is we are adapted to cooked paleo food to live healthy up to 100 years easily.  My grandma lived to be 83 and all her life she consumed bread and grains, lots of dairy, and later vegetable oil.  As long as I remember her she had high blood pressure and for the last 15 years or so she was taking lots of pills.  I'm sure if she would cut out grains, oil, and pills she would easily get to 100 without high blood pressure.

[eveheart]

GS, what are you waiting for?... you know that eating cooked food is less than optimal. You know that problems will arise, sometimes sooner, sometimes later.

My mom is 88 and and was perfectly healthy until about 30 years ago. As a milk- and wheat-intolerant person who lived on cooked foods, bread and cheese, she boasts of longevity, which is seen as a sign of robust health and strong constitution, even though she has had multiple surgeries including removal of gall-bladder, uterus, a pacemaker and joint replacements, and can barely remember her own name.

It's hard to think into the future when the immediate warning signs are vague. Ignorance also plays a large part in rationalizing that everything is okay. But you have seen the future and you are not ignorant - far from it.

The question is not "How much AGEs are we humans adapted to?" but rather, "What price do I  want my family to pay when their entire system gets thrown out of whack and finally breaks down, and how hard is it to recover from even the slightest disequilibrium?"

[goodsamaritan]

GS, what are you waiting for?... you know that eating cooked food is less than optimal. You know that problems will arise, sometimes sooner, sometimes later.

It's a curious inquiry.

If you ask the cooked paleo dieters, they may say AGEs mean nothing to them.

My family is in transition now.  My first born's illness has forced him into raw paleo diet with me.  We have finally gone to cooked paleo diet with the 2 younger children.  My wife is on a somewhat cooked paleo diet, with rice at times.

[TylerDurden]

The cooked-palaeodieters simply mistakenly  view most age-related illnesses such as alzheimer's, arthritis etc. as being supposedly "normal" for them and everybody else, so they wrongly view themselves as being "healthy" merely because they are relatively immune to a very few modern diseases such as diabetes or crohn's disease.

Raw  foodists, by contrast, get an extra benefit through having fewer wrinkles(AGEs are known to cause more wrinkles and damage the collagen in skin, aging its appearance), as well as lowering their chances of alzheimer's, heart disease and a 100 other conditions simply by lowering their intake of heat-created toxins.

[Löwenherz]

Do we have ANY evidence that the high amounts of AGEs created INSIDE our body from fruit sugar / fructose (endogenous AGEs) are less harmful than exogenous AGEs from eating cooked meat?

http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/09/sugar-and-ages-fructose-is-10-times.html

"That could explain how people eating lots of fruit and no meat can still have high levels of AGEs."

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

Raw  foodists, by contrast, get an extra benefit through having fewer wrinkles(AGEs are known to cause more wrinkles and damage the collagen in skin, aging its appearance)

If they have eaten large amounts of fruit for a long time it's EXACTLY the opposite.

Fructose destroys collagen and other proteins of our body.

Long-term fruit eaters always look much older than people who have eaten rice instead of fruits.

Löwenherz

[TylerDurden]

Yes, I know there is a little propaganda claiming that people re worse affected by raw fruits than cooked meats, but it's usually focused on refined fructose which has nothing to do with natural fructose in raw fruits.

What the cooked-meat-eaters don't like to admit is that cooked animal foods also contain hefty amounts of a different type of AGEs - namely "ALEs", short for "advanced lipoxidation end products". These are created via combining fats and proteins - and then there is oxidisation of cooked animal foods/fats as well which causes further damage.


What is embarassing is that these pro-cooked-LC/pro-cooked zero-carb try to ignore the vast numbers of studies confirming that eating lots of pufa-rich plant foods is way healthier than eating lots of saturated-fat-rich cooked animal foods.

[cherimoya_kid]

If they have eaten large amounts of fruit for a long time it's EXACTLY the opposite.

Fructose destroys collagen and other proteins of our body.

Long-term fruit eaters always look much older than people who have eaten rice instead of fruits.

Löwenherz

Doug Graham looks like HELL. His hair is all gray, he's got major neck wattles, and his skin is wrinkling pretty badly.  So....yeah.  Fruitarians can say what they want. Doug Graham's appearance is proof.

[Löwenherz]

Yes, I know there is a little propaganda claiming that people re worse affected by raw fruits than cooked meats, but it's usually focused on refined fructose which has nothing to do with natural fructose in raw fruits.

The question here is: How damaging is the long-term consumption of high amounts of fruit?

From my experience I can say that it is indeed extremely unhealthy.

Löwenherz

[Iguana]

Of course, an excessive consumption of anything is extremely unhealthy!

[TylerDurden]

The question here is: How damaging is the long-term consumption of high amounts of fruit?

From my experience I can say that it is indeed extremely unhealthy.

Löwenherz

  My own experience was that a diet very high in raw fruit but with a small amount of raw animal food caused me a few, very, very minor issues re fluctuating blood-sugar levels and an increased appetite, but I was otherwise fine with it. The main issue is to eat enough animal foods to get enough of all the necessary nutrients, after that one can eat lots of raw fruit without issues(assuming one doesn't have some form of carb-intolerance gained on a SAD diet).

[goodsamaritan]

High consumption of SWEET fruit is not for me as well.
I get blood sugar crashes... it sucks when that happens.
It may happen if I eat 3 big bananas + 3 oranges.  It sucks.
But give me durian, I can eat a lot of that heavy fruit meat.

I have my own daily estimate of the ratio of fruit vs animal fat consumption via intuition.

[Löwenherz]

Iguana, GS and Tyler,

I see that we are not far away from each other. I would say: The center of our raw diet is lean protein, the rest is a balancing act between fruits and fats.

Tyler seems to focus more on fruit in recent times, whereas GS eats more animal fat and much less fruit than I thought. Iguana seems to be very flexible, by definition 'instincto'.

I myself switched between high fruit low animal fat to high animal fat low fruit back and forth literally a hundred times. I have eaten a lot of fruit for more than a decade, but in the last years I was forced to limit my intake because fruits caused massive skin and joint damage as well as other problems (which I couldn't believe in the beginning). High animal fat intake is not perfect either for me. I get body odor in warm weather, I become nervous and irritated from beef and lamb fat and digestion becomes problematic sometimes. What I noticed is that fats from grass-fed domesticated animals can cause a flare up of my old gi tract inflammations. That makes me VERY skeptical today. Wild meats never caused pain in my GI tract. Lamb seems to be the worst.

Now my main source of fat are coconuts, which seems to be perfect. And I don't eat meat from domesticated animals anymore. Wild meats are so much better. They are always lean, but together with coconuts it's no problem.

I call my new diet: Raw Paleo Tropical. 

Löwenherz

[TylerDurden]

I don't focus more on fruit, I still eat mostly raw animal foods.

[Löwenherz]

I don't focus more on fruit, I still eat mostly raw animal foods.

I got the impression because you recently mentioned that you eat just fruit on some days.

How much animal food do you eat in a typical day? How many pounds? And what are your favorites at the moment?

Löwenherz

[TylerDurden]

I eat anywhere up to half a kilo to a kilo a day of raw meat. Mostly raw wild game like wild hare or wild moufflon or wild boar.

I sometimes only eat meat or only eat fruit. It all depends on availability of sources and my inclinations. However, overall, I still eat mostly raw meats.