Author Topic: fish vs red meats  (Read 26057 times)

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CitrusHigh

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2012, 10:15:49 pm »
Oh ma gosh, it's not, but how many truly sustainable fish farms do you know of?

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2012, 04:11:18 am »
cherymoya,  I hope your view regarding seafoods safety is correct, for I like salmon.

My brother told me that his foremer boss is diagnosed with ALS (amyotrophic lateral sclerosis).  His doctor said that the cause of his ALS is that there is much mercury inside his body, presumably caused by his daily consumption of wild-caught fish, which has been his main diet for years because he is rich enough to afford it. What will you say about this?

Where are the studies showing a link between ALS and mercury?

The statement is almost too stupid to be worth responding to. There are dozens of traditional groups all over the world, from Eskimos to Pacific Islanders, who eat large amounts of seafood their whole lives.  These groups don't have endemic mercury poisoning.  By all rights, they should, since they eat WAAAY more seafood than Americans, etc.. For that that matter, the Japanese and coastal Chinese, Vietnamese, and Thai eat large amounts as well, even though they're not paleo.  Those populations are not stricken with mercury poisoning.

So, yeah.  Proof is good.  Random baseless vegan-style fear, not so much.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2012, 04:17:08 am »
I thought that statement might be misunderstood. I think it's silly to demand that people produce proof. Obviously if they believe it it's good enough for them. My suggestion for you to go do the research for yourself is because that is for you, what do we care if you don't believe it. I know you're pretty well read and probably have satisfied yourself that your practices are healthful. Likewise, so have I. Though one day I would like to be 100% raw, I'm not because I enjoy the flavors of cooked foods enough that for me it's worth it. I've already reached the level of health that prior to this diet I thought was impossible, that is, I do not get sick and my major health issues have vanished. If I can do that while still eating a significant portion of hash browns and tacos, I think I'm sitting pretty! MmmMm. When I'm ready to mostly let those things go, I will!

In any case I'm not saying you can't eat fish healthfully Cheri, I'm saying it's not sustainable any way you slice it at the current rates things are fished. It's not just about you bruva.

This isn't a dick measuring competition, and the quality of knowledge is not directly proportional to the amount of time someone's been doing something. That is a fallacious way of looking at things.

You could probably live entirely on fish still, and more or less healthfully. But guess what, if every person on earth got their couple of portions of fish per week, stocks would be depleted in no time. As it is with fish consumption increasing we're not going to be able to keep up with demand. I repeat, ease up on the fish or there probably won't be much for your grandchildren, or theirs!

I don't care about fish in 100 years.  We'll be growing fish/meat in vats for people to eat on a large scale within 15-20 years, most likely.  It can already be done now, just not cheaply. The wild populations will easily rebound, when we're all eating vat-grown fish/meat.

If you don't understand Moore's Law and it's corollaries, then please don't argue with the assertions I just made. And please, keep it respectful.  You really are speaking to someone with greater knowledge here, and this is a health board, not a "sustainable living" board.  We have members who don't give a damn about sustainability, and you need to respect that fact. I'm all for sustainability, but I'm not interested in Chicken Little "The Sky is falling!" BS, which is what you're spreading.

In other words, panic is not welcome here.  Panic is for vegans.

CitrusHigh

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2012, 09:03:53 am »
How can you separate health from sustainability? That is disconnected thinking.

And your calling me a vegan-like alarmist is a sad attempt at creating a straw man. Marlin will be virtually extinct at current fishing rates, within five(5!!!!) yrs.  That sounds like it would be a good reason to panic...at least if I were a marlin....

You would do well to come down from your pedestal. Knowledge isn't a continuum, every one has a different combination of it, everyone is both elder and student. Your cup is full, so you cannot see this.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2012, 10:27:41 am »
Hey Citrus - I once saw an interview with a woman scientist who wrote a book on what we are doing to our oceans and she said that there are certain species of fish that should never be eaten because of the massive destruction done to the ocean floor in their harvest (pretty sure shrimp was one - they just dig up the whole ecosystem getting them and destroy the habitat). She did say we should limit our choices to just a few species where there is little harm done - but now I can't remember what those species were.

Have you stumbled upon this in your research by any chance?

Oh - and I told my fish monger I would send him the link you posted to that amazing fishery/nature preserve in Spain, but I'm having trouble finding it on the board. Would you be able to find that easily?

Thanks.

CitrusHigh

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2012, 11:47:05 am »
Here is a link to that place, Veta La Palma fish farm, south spain. If you would prefer an article with more pics or different info, just search out the name with your favorite search engine. Enjoy!

http://itstheenvironmentstupid.com/?p=1120

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2012, 12:04:07 pm »
How can you separate health from sustainability? That is disconnected thinking.

And your calling me a vegan-like alarmist is a sad attempt at creating a straw man. Marlin will be virtually extinct at current fishing rates, within five(5!!!!) yrs.  That sounds like it would be a good reason to panic...at least if I were a marlin....

You would do well to come down from your pedestal. Knowledge isn't a continuum, every one has a different combination of it, everyone is both elder and student. Your cup is full, so you cannot see this.

So I think I already said this is a health forum, not a sustainability forum.  Maybe you'd feel more comfortable denouncing me from a safe distance, at a sustainability forum. 

Seriously, I don't think you're really at home here, maybe.  You're proud of the fact that you eat cooked food, you come here and criticize people...you can flame out, if you would like.  I hate to ban people, or see them flame out, but both happen.

I do need you to stop spreading the panic and dread, please. You've seen me ban others.  Don't put me in a position where I have to make a decision on whether or not to ban you, please.

CitrusHigh

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2012, 12:25:31 pm »
You have sidestepped what I said, which is a legitimate point. 

I'm have not criticized anyone, but I have criticized ideas, which I think is within board guidelines. And only when I felt it was warranted. I'm not promoting cooked food, but if the point of this board is health then I have adequately stated that my belief is, if it's not easily digestible raw, then it's not food (defined as a nourishing, life giving, non-toxic aliment) for you. That doesn't mean you can't choose to eat it!

Why are you so threatened? What cherished ideas of yours are under attack here that you have gotten defensive to the point where you'll consider banning me? Why do you need it to be ok to consume large quantities of fish?

I practice non-attachment, ban me if you like, you have a duty to if it's to everyone's benefit here.

Offline ezekiel

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2012, 12:32:41 pm »
For me personally I've gotten much more healing experiences from red meat. Just more satisfying, helps my training more too, and my body/mind feels more at peace.
But not only does red meat feel more healing, I like the taste of red meat more too, I almost despise the taste of pork (does not include wild boar), chicken, fish and other lighter meats sometimes.  This is my experience with both cooked and raw meats. The thought of eating some chicken or fish sounds kind of disgusting sometimes actually haha But red meat sounds tasty everyday, especially meat from older animals. Which is probably why I love venison. I don't like veal meat much at all.

This is just based on my personal experience on meats that are unseasoned, both cooked and raw.  Other people may be completely different. The taste of grain fed beef can be horrible too, depending on the extremes of which it was raised.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2012, 01:33:40 pm »
For me personally I've gotten much more healing experiences from red meat. Just more satisfying, helps my training more too, and my body/mind feels more at peace.
But not only does red meat feel more healing, I like the taste of red meat more too, I almost despise the taste of pork (does not include wild boar), chicken, fish and other lighter meats sometimes.  This is my experience with both cooked and raw meats. The thought of eating some chicken or fish sounds kind of disgusting sometimes actually haha But red meat sounds tasty everyday, especially meat from older animals. Which is probably why I love venison. I don't like veal meat much at all.

This is just based on my personal experience on meats that are unseasoned, both cooked and raw.  Other people may be completely different. The taste of grain fed beef can be horrible too, depending on the extremes of which it was raised.

I'm not arguing taste.  My favorite raw flesh food is probably fatty escolar (hawaiian butterfish), or fatty tuna.  However, raw fat from healthy pigs is in a very close second place (it's almost too close to call), and raw grassfed meat is a close 3rd. I can definitely see how someone could prefer meat to fish.

To CitrusHigh--If there are more important things to you than health and health research, then you shouldn't be focusing this much of your energy here.    That's the whole point of this forum.  Most of the mods here can get away with eating some cooked food from time to time without major health problems.  In fact, most of the mods do, including me.  That's not the point.  The POINT is that you can either eat a mostly-raw diet, with some cheating, and be satisfied with that...or you can keep researching.  By definition, all the mods here are researchers.  We are open to new truths.  Of all the people we've banned (who aren't just link-spamming), there's not one person who I would classify as a researcher.  You're not one either.  You are sure of yourself, and you're preaching.  That's what researchers avoid.

Believe me, I have spent lots of time thinking and caring about sustainability. If I thought that we wouldn't all be eating vat-grown meat in 20 years, I'd worry too, almost as much as you do.  However, my research indicates to me that we probably will be.  Meanwhile, I've still got some things about myself I'd like to improve, so I keep researching.  I'm also driven by simple intellectual curiosity as well.

You are not.  You are a preacher.  I appreciate your passion, and I like you as a person, but...the people who fit this forum best are researchers with burning curiosity and a desire to know. Our minds are open.  You, OTOH, seem like you want to preach. 

There are better forums for that, you can probably find some sustainability forums, or whatever topic gets you fired up.

This isn't the only forum I post in.  I'm into video gaming and IP connectivity topics, but I don't talk about those things here...nor do I talk about health on THOSE forums. It doesn't fit. Believe me, man, there are other forums.

My advice?  Please do your preaching about sustainability on forums designed for discussions about sustainability.

And I'm not worried about running out of fish.  If we do, I'll just eat more pigs and cows. They're tasty too.  Even if we run out of fish, by the time it happens, research into soil quality and grass-feeding is going to be more widely understood and accepted...which means I'll be more likely to easily find animals raised on the highest-possible quality of food. Right now, that's hard. 

Fish, OTOH, automatically have a complete and perfect diet, because the ocean is chock-full of minerals. Almost no soils are as mineral-rich as the ocean always is.  They  can be made mineral-rich, but I'm going to let everybody catch up with me on soil research, rather than exhausting myself trying to spread the truth about soil improvement, or starting my own farm.  Starting your own farm is fucking hard work.  I'm not going to fund it by myself, nor start it by myself, nor WORK it by myself. 

If you'd like to get a bunch of people together with money and strong backs, feel free.  I've got access to the best research available on how to feed soil, where to put the farm, etc..  I'm not going to bust my butt doing all that work, though. I'd have to simultaneously educate AND organize AND fund-raise. On the other hand, I can just let everybody catch up with me, and eat fish while they do.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2012, 01:58:33 pm »
Sully, I'm kinda the opposite to you in that fish tastes good and makes me feel good most of the time and red meat doesn't appeal at all most of the time. I guess that's an Instincto kind of thing.

Citrus - thanks so much for that link again. What a magnificent person and place. If only all fish were produced like that!

« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 02:03:47 pm by Dorothy »

Offline Joy2012

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2012, 02:17:55 pm »
Even if we run out of fish, by the time it happens, research into soil quality and grass-feeding is going to be more widely understood and accepted...which means I'll be more likely to easily find animals raised on the highest-possible quality of food. Right now, that's hard. 

Fish, OTOH, automatically have a complete and perfect diet, because the ocean is chock-full of minerals. Almost no soils are as mineral-rich as the ocean always is.  They  can be made mineral-rich, but I'm going to let everybody catch up with me on soil research, rather than exhausting myself trying to spread the truth about soil improvement, or starting my own farm. 

So based on your research you believe wild caught Alaskan salmon is more nutritious than grass-fed red meat?   A number of members on this forum claim that red meats have healed their bodies better than fish.

I am just interested in finding out what is best for my health, red meat or fish.   As for sustainability, I hope governments and experts will do their job in informing people and setting up regulations.

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2012, 07:09:35 am »
Sully, I'm kinda the opposite to you in that fish tastes good and makes me feel good most of the time and red meat doesn't appeal at all most of the time. I guess that's an Instincto kind of thing.

Citrus - thanks so much for that link again. What a magnificent person and place. If only all fish were produced like that!


Haha, yeah I guess we have different instincts. I must say though, as far as taste, fresh raw wild albacore tuna is pretty good to me. I only got it fresh on the west coast on a trip once. I do like picked herring a lot too. But it's seasoned and soaked/aged in vinegar.

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2012, 08:33:00 am »
Haha, yeah I guess we have different instincts. I must say though, as far as taste, fresh raw wild albacore tuna is pretty good to me. I only got it fresh on the west coast on a trip once. I do like picked herring a lot too. But it's seasoned and soaked/aged in vinegar.

I've never had pickled herring. If it's the right vinegar I bet that could be yummy - but can you buy it raw already pickled? When things are pickled 99 out 100 times they are cooked. Sounds like a good project learning how to pickle herrings raw.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2012, 11:43:49 am »
So based on your research you believe wild caught Alaskan salmon is more nutritious than grass-fed red meat?   A number of members on this forum claim that red meats have healed their bodies better than fish.

I am just interested in finding out what is best for my health, red meat or fish.   As for sustainability, I hope governments and experts will do their job in informing people and setting up regulations.

Yes, I think wild salmon is better than meat, unless the meat is from animals raised on very high-quality grass.  Raw wild salmon makes me nauseous, though, so I don't eat it.

As to which works the best for you, you'll just have to experiment.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2012, 12:09:22 pm »
Thanks.

Do you think "taste" can be the judge? If one species pleases me more in taste, could that mean that this species is probably the best for me health-wise?

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2012, 02:16:10 pm »
Thanks.

Do you think "taste" can be the judge? If one species pleases me more in taste, could that mean that this species is probably the best for me health-wise?

Generally, yes. I really enjoy fatty fish, and I know that it's also good for me.  I like non-fatty fish too, but not as much. 

However, you have to remember that people have to learn to enjoy some organs, like brain.  Other organs, like thyroid or adrenals, are easier to learn to enjoy, and you can trust your instincts on them sooner than you can with brain.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2012, 02:49:02 pm »
Thanks, cherimoya_kid.

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2012, 08:55:46 pm »
For me, white meat, especially seafood works much better than beef and other red meat, as long as it is 100% raw and 100% wild.

Beef makes me nervous, aggressive, introverted and anxious very often whereas seafood makes me calm, friendly, communicative and happy, no joke. Further more beef fat gives me body odour which is particularly nasty in warm places like Florida.

Very different effects on different people, obviously. Is Aajonus (nowadays) still the only one who has written about these different predispositions?

Löwenherz

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2012, 10:06:29 pm »
For me, white meat, especially seafood works much better than beef and other red meat, as long as it is 100% raw and 100% wild.

Beef makes me nervous, aggressive, introverted and anxious very often whereas seafood makes me calm, friendly, communicative and happy, no joke. Further more beef fat gives me body odour which is particularly nasty in warm places like Florida.

Very different effects on different people, obviously. Is Aajonus (nowadays) still the only one who has written about these different predispositions?

Löwenherz


Nice to know what's working for you. 
What I noticed is that our needs change.
I've only been on raw paleo for 4 years and I've had my binges.
There was a time when beef was my thing every day.
There was a time when it was oysters.
There was a time when it was coconuts.
There was a time when it was blue marlin fish.
There was a time when it was durian.
There was a time I craved raw starches.

This is why I keep reading the instincto teachings.  Need to listen to what we need.  Healing and eventual balance takes time.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2012, 05:18:50 am »
Nice to know what's working for you. 
What I noticed is that our needs change.
I've only been on raw paleo for 4 years and I've had my binges.
There was a time when beef was my thing every day.
There was a time when it was oysters.
There was a time when it was coconuts.
There was a time when it was blue marlin fish.
There was a time when it was durian.
There was a time I craved raw starches.

This is why I keep reading the instincto teachings.  Need to listen to what we need.  Healing and eventual balance takes time.

Yep.  Absolutely. I totally agree with this. 

Offline ezekiel

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2012, 09:09:18 am »
I've never had pickled herring. If it's the right vinegar I bet that could be yummy - but can you buy it raw already pickled? When things are pickled 99 out 100 times they are cooked. Sounds like a good project learning how to pickle herrings raw.
Yeah I think almost all or most pickled herring is pickled raw. I think it just can't be pickled if it was cooked. Unlike vegetables etc. Since cooking makes fish dry and flaky, which would be pretty nasty to pickle cooked herring haha. This is the best brand I tried so far. http://www.mabaensch.com/
they used to use beet sugar, but now they use regular sugar. Some brands use high fructos corn syrup, so be careful. The ingredients of this brand I think is Herring, Vinegar, Onions, Sugar, Salt, and maybe some other spices. So not all that bad.

Edit: "Ma Baensch uses pure liquid beet sugar. Most other herring brands use standard corn syrup." It says that on their website. Hmm, on the label I noticed a while ago it changed from beet sugar to just "sugar".
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 09:14:38 am by Sully »

Offline ezekiel

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2012, 09:11:23 am »
Generally, yes. I really enjoy fatty fish, and I know that it's also good for me.  I like non-fatty fish too, but not as much. 

However, you have to remember that people have to learn to enjoy some organs, like brain.  Other organs, like thyroid or adrenals, are easier to learn to enjoy, and you can trust your instincts on them sooner than you can with brain.
Yeah I agree with this. Also my favorite fish is pretty fatty. Raw albacore tuna. I dried it once, it was just oozing OIL! It's very delicious cool, fresh and raw.

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2012, 12:53:53 pm »
Sully - did you like that dried tuna? Oozing oil sounds yummy.  :)

Thanks so much for that link on the pickled herring. I'm going to order me some!

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Re: fish vs red meats
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2012, 01:10:11 pm »
Sully - did you like that dried tuna? Oozing oil sounds yummy.  :)

Thanks so much for that link on the pickled herring. I'm going to order me some!
Oh yeah, it was very crispy and easy to chew, amazing! Nice, I am sure you will like the herring! I think it's pretty cool they make the picked herring in the city I live in. I can just get it from the stores :) I don't recommend eating too much. But its a nice treat! I ate it often when I was a kid too

 

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