Extraterrestrial races

[Iguana]

The birth rate has dropped precipitously in developed countries.  Who's to say this trend won't continue, as our life spans and health get better and better?  And if the birth rate drops to near zero, we wouldn't need to conquer other planets.

I imagine aliens would be in much the same situation.

Harrison shows in the same book that otherwise, with an exponential population growth, a civilization would ultimately expand at the speed of light over a whole galaxy, which is an impossible situation. Colonizing other planets is therefore not the final solution to population growth.

[TylerDurden]

Yeah, this doesn’t support my argument but it doesn’t support yours any better. By the way, what is exactly your argument? That no aliens are here around? That there’s no way any ET could have ever reached Earth? I’m just asking, to make things clear.

The point is that, obviously, since we have not experienced any contact with aliens, they could not possibly have come here.

Of course, that’s what happens on our planet. That’s exactly the point discussed in the link I already gave:
[/quote] A pointless statement. There are certain general rules in Life which can't be avoided, such as natural selection. Any species that goes in for increased morality in a big way would be encouraging species suicide, and would therefore no longer exist.

[goodsamaritan]

The point is that, obviously, since we have not experienced any contact with aliens, they could not possibly have come here.

You are just expressing YOUR belief that "we" have not experienced any contact with aliens.

On the other hand "I" would accept that some of the reports about ancient aliens, past aliens, current aliens MAY be true.

[Iguana]

The point is that, obviously, since we have not experienced any contact with aliens, they could not possibly have come here.

It would be more accurate to say that you are not aware of any contact with aliens. As a matter of fact there is a enormous amount of reports from air force and commercial pilots, high grade military commanders, police officers, and all kinds of  people as well of visual, radar, photographic, traces on the ground and on the vegetation, interference with electrical and electronic systems, disabling of ICBM bases, alleged wreck of an alien craft with aliens bodies, abductions, etc*.

Therefore the questions are:

1.) Are these reports reliable and truthful or are they all lies?
2.) What are the reported objects? Are they real, solid and material things or illusions?
3.) Where do they come from? From our own planet or from somewhere else? 

Of course, there are plenty of deceitful reports. But there’s still a great number of totally confirmed cases, unexplainable by usual ways. Well, those questions are still a matter of debate. I’ve studied the subject for more than 40 years, read all the literature I found about it and finally gave up, so that I still don’t have a definitive answer.

It’s thus clear that we are facing an extraordinary mystery, on which various hypothesis have been proposed. Most are unsound as they cannot explain some of the most striking and consistently proved cases. The extraterrestrial hypothesis is the most probable.       

A pointless statement. There are certain general rules in Life which can't be avoided, such as natural selection. Any species that goes in for increased morality in a big way would be encouraging species suicide, and would therefore no longer exist.

Not necessarily once that species is sufficiently scientifically advanced and technologically powerful while in the same time adequately clever and wise to understand that the concept of plenitude is invalid…. and therefore that by destroying its environment and other species it is precisely its own survival and well being that it is jeopardized. Even we, homo sapiens-sapiens, start to clearly understand that! 

You are just expressing YOUR belief that "we" have not experienced any contact with aliens.

Exactly, that’s a belief. Some believe in ET – UFOs while some don’t believe in it. Both are believers: positive and negative believers.
 

On the other hand "I" would accept that some of the reports about ancient aliens, past aliens, current aliens MAY be true.

I hardly see any other possibility: the amount of evidences is overwhelming.

*I even got a few personal reports, including one from the son of a US Navy nuclear submarine commander, saying that his father and some of the crew saw an unmistakable UFO flying in the night sky while they where sailing on the surface somewhere between Guam and the Philippines.

[TylerDurden]

On the other hand "I" would accept that some of the reports about ancient aliens, past aliens, current aliens MAY be true.

  The current aliens apparently do bizarre things like anal probing on their "kidnapped victims" , something they would hardly need to do if they had far more advanced technology than us. Plus, like I said before, anything that  primitives like the Mayans couldn't explain they just arbitrarily ascribed to aliens or whatever. Meaningless.

[TylerDurden]

Not necessarily once that species is sufficiently scientifically advanced and technologically powerful while in the same time adequately clever and wise to understand that the concept of plenitude is invalid…. and therefore that by destroying its environment and other species it is precisely its own survival and well being that it is jeopardized. Even we, homo sapiens-sapiens, start to clearly understand that! 

The whole point is that, though humanity has dimly understood that destroying its environment is a bad thing, there are still plenty of people who still carry on destroying the environment. All the knowledge in the Universe cannot get rid of innate instincts such as survival of the fittest etc.

[Iguana]

In 99% of the cases, perhaps.

A sea turtle lays about a hundred eggs at once. From those 100 eggs, statistically only about one turtle will survive and be able to reproduce again. It could be the same for planetary civilizations, I mean 99% would finally self-destruct. We can't exclude the possibility that some non destructive ones have survived.

Did you read the page of Harrison's book I gave the link for? Did you read the Deardorff's paper I linked?

[TylerDurden]

Yes, I read them. I've come across similiar claims in the past.

[raw-al]

I have a pilot friend who watched one pull up beside him inflight, loiter for awhile then zip off at incredible speed. He's a very sensible guy with no reason to make it up. I know other guys, some airline who've seen them and no they weren't Venus. Venus is pretty easy to spot.

Another friend saw one over a lake at night. Others I know have seen them.

In a small hydroelectric power company town where I lived, the security person was making the rounds one night when he saw one loitering under the power lines (735,000 volt power lines) which span a valley. He called the Police who watched also. Then it just zipped off after awhile. Both guys are not prone to mischief.

Crop circles is another thing related to the spacecraft. These are not some work done by a couple of idiots in England with some rope and a 2x4. They have shown up on the same night in fields in Europe/Canada and other continents. The plants are actually bent in perfect arcs and not broken. They continue to grow and their crop yields are actually higher. These topics have been discussed by various authors such as Jim Marr ('Alien Agenda') and Nassim Harimein (Crossing The Event Horizon)

Jim Marrs says that regarding spaceflight, these beings have figured how to create folds in time/space to make the distances shrink.

His explanation of what they are doing here and why they haven't wiped us out makes sense. He also explains that some of our modern 'inventions' were technologies gleaned from the crashed spacecraft that were confiscated in Roswell etc. Things such as fibre optics and some of the advanced metallic composites available nowadays. There were other things, but I don't recall them off hand.

The military has a major reason for keeping these secrets for themselves, because any technologies that they can gain, are a leg up in the techno wars that are so common nowadays and all of the industrial spinoffs. Were they to admit that they have these technologies there would be a hue and cry from manufacturers and the public to be let in on them.

He mentions that there are friendly aliens and not so friendly ones.

The cow mutilations are explained also.

I had no reason to believe or disbelieve this stuff till I read Jim Marrs's book. It opened my eyes and his other book 'Ruled by Secrecy' was a fascinating read also. It made a lot of sense in explaining how secret societies over the ages have created all kinds of havoc.

I haven't personally observed anything, but the evidence is overwhelming.

It really matters not if you believe or disbelieve this, but it is interesting to understand what goes on in the world.

[Iguana]

Thanks Raw-Al. Yes, I understand that airplane pilots sometimes see UFOs but they are extremely reluctant to write a report because it would drive them into troubles, isn’t it? 

I stopped to read about UFOs about the time Jim Marrs published his book “Alien Agenda”, so I didn’t know about it.

What is the explanation of cows mutilations? I’m very suspicious of people who pretend to have all the answers. Sorry Al, but Nassim Haramein is apparently a con along with so many other charlatans pictured in this page:
http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/projet_camelot.htm
See down the page “La fondation thrive ou les foutaises toriques, avec la participation de Nassin Haramein” which could be translated into something like
"The thrive movement or the torus ring crap thing, with the participation of Nassim Haramein”
Same in English, but the page is incomplete and the part about Haramein is missing:
http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/camelot_project.htm
A thorough debunking directly in English:
http://thrivedebunked.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/who-is-nassim-haramein/

These cranks who write wacky and weird things discredit the others who are seriously and scientifically trying to comprehend the phenomenon. No wonder that the UFOs topic became a laughing stock.

[TylerDurden]

Whatever the case, crop circles have already been proven to be faked with some farmers actually showing how it was done.

[Iguana]

I'm not an expert on "crop circles", but it seems they are of two very different  kinds: the man-made ones and the ones which could  hardly have been made in a few hours by a couple of retired farmers. See those beautiful ones here (and the comments of Jean-Pierre Petit if you can read French).

http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/Crop%20Circles/Crop_Circles.htm

True, there are some man-made ones. The problem is: could they possibly be all man-made?  Whatever the case, some are really mind-boggling! 

[TylerDurden]

Humans can fool other humans in such easy ways that I  just don't believe in alien-mad crop-circles, let alone alien-autopsied cows or whatever. Much easier to believe in a simpler solution, that humans like to play pranks on each other.

[raw-al]

Thanks Raw-Al. Yes, I understand that airplane pilots sometimes see UFOs but they are extremely reluctant to write a report because it would drive them into troubles, isn’t it? 

I stopped to read about UFOs about the time Jim Marrs published his book “Alien Agenda”, so I didn’t know about it.

What is the explanation of cows mutilations? I’m very suspicious of people who pretend to have all the answers. Sorry Al, but Nassim Haramein is apparently a con along with so many other charlatans pictured in this page:
http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/projet_camelot.htm
See down the page “La fondation thrive ou les foutaises toriques, avec la participation de Nassin Haramein” which could be translated into something like
"The thrive movement or the torus ring crap thing, with the participation of Nassim Haramein”
Same in English, but the page is incomplete and the part about Haramein is missing:
http://www.jp-petit.org/nouv_f/projet_camelot/camelot_project.htm
A thorough debunking directly in English:
http://thrivedebunked.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/who-is-nassim-haramein/

These cranks who write wacky and weird things discredit the others who are seriously and scientifically trying to comprehend the phenomenon. No wonder that the UFOs topic became a laughing stock.

Iguana,
Re the airline pilots, you have to put yourself in their shoes. Why would they bother? It's basically a case of "Holy shit, look whats off the port side" "wow". If they report it everybody and their dog will make fun of them and what purpose would be served? Pilots are generally a conservative lot and fluffing the public image of their safe airline is not Kosher. It's not like all pilots get together and conspire to keep it secret. There are Youtubes with former astronauts talking about seeing them. Some former astronauts beat around the bush by saying that it is ridiculous to think we are the only ones in this universe. They usually wait till their careers are over before stepping on those landmines.

Most I've seen was a meteorite which whizzed by me in flames many years ago, probably at 9000' ASL.

Re the cow mutilations, they are real and pretty much impossible to have been done by us humans owing to the accuracy etc of the incisions. You really have to read Jim Marrs' book, because he gives a detailed history of the who, what, where, when and why.

Very briefly, the aliens are monitoring our planet and we are considered to be the babies in regards to technological development in the universe. These beings have somewhat destroyed their own planets with technology and are using earth more or less as a lifeboat. The reason that they are mutilating the cows is (roughly) that cows are a main food source for the planet from the point of view of meat and dairy and since they have some genetic kinship to us, they are like a litmus test for the state of our bodies, re ingestion of airborne pollution etc. As far as the aliens are concerned they are just carrying on studies using cows, like we carry on studies using mice and cats.

BTW in Jim Marrs book he clearly states at the beginning of a paragraph if what he says is speculation or hearsay by saying loud and clear "This is Conspiracy Theory"

Re Nassim etc and crop circles,
Nassim is a fascinating fellow. I know someone who took courses from him in Vancouver BC. His impression is like mine in that he is like Aajonus. He is brilliant but sometimes maybe too brilliant and he like to dump on the turtles he works around, so they naturally are inclined to fight back. He gets sidetracked in some wonky ideas. His theories are not mainstream in the least and those in mainstream are not likely to admit they are wrong whether they are or not.

In his 4 DVD set Crossing the Event Horizon" He talks about some fascinating theories of the universe/Big Bang/microcosm-macrocosm and his explanations are awesomely simplified. He is a born teacher.

His explanations of crop circles are not his manufacture as there are lots of books on them.

You have to see clear, up close photos of the plants that are bent in the real crop circles. They are bent very smoothly in a way that could not be done by the two jackasses in England who had their 15 minutes of fame claiming to make them. These guys would be bloody busy and capable of super-human feats of magic to be able to create a number of them in one night in England and then zip over to Canada on the same night do another, then zip down to the US on one night.

Honestly the people who believe some debunkers are what I can only describe as gullible, LOL who seem to be incapable of understanding scientific examination/inquiry. Sorry TD you really ought to do your homework on this one.

How could you make circles and various geometric shapes, with precision of less than a cm and have no tracks leading up to the areas, no footprints at the site, no damaged stalks other than a bending, which in order to duplicate in a lab, they had to bend using a very fast heating action that stopped as soon as it started, practically, so that the plant was not killed? In the lab this heating damaged the plants. Also the plants continued to grow even better after the bending, giving better than normal yields. Then there is the obvious physical effort of pushing down the plants. The huge areas that are bent would require an enormous expenditure of strength to do so smoothly and neatly. No two old goofballs are capable of that. All they are capable of being is idiots and no doubt along with the money they made from the news outlets, they made it into the history books and have a laugh along the way.

I have to catch a ferry now so I will close for now.

[TylerDurden]

Obviously, there are more than just one or two crop-circle hoaxers, no need to bring in aliens to explain a more simple solution. As regards the above, I've heard very plausible-sounding scientific gobbledygook which tried to show that the Moon Landings never happened, but further study showed that this was nonsense. Occam's Razor is the only way to look at such implausibilities.

[raw-al]

Obviously, there are more than just one or two crop-circle hoaxers, no need to bring in aliens to explain more simple solution. As regards the above, I've heard very plausible-sounding scientific gobbledygook which tried to show that the Moon Landings never happened, but further study showed that this was nonsense. Occam's Razor is the only way to look at such implausibilities.

Yes I've heard the moon landing ones and the twin towers one and my take on them is, I dunno. The aircraft crashing into the pentagon one being a hoax actually makes a huge amount of sense from what I have read.

You have to remember that there are always two possibilities in a discussion, minimum

Governments/Kings have a rich history of doing deceitful things to accomplish their own ends, such as in the case of Guy Fawkes.  It also doesn't seem to matter the philosophical bent of the government in question, the lot of them seem to do it.

Occam's Razor could be used to explain the crop circles and mutilations and pyramids construction much more elegantly, if it was an alien group who did these things for their own purposes.

It explains so many things on the planet, such as the way populations spread out on earth, hieroglyphics found in disparate parts of the world, the Egyptian Queen Neferfeti's head in the statue, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nefertiti drawings of spaceships that have been painted since antiquity. Lots of other stuff, but do yourself a favour and read Jim's book written around 1995. At the least you'll get a chuckle.

Some of the explanations for how the pyramids were built are a bit far-fetched. Each stone fits like a glove. The whole theory of them being used for burial is BS. Just to get inside these things required a massive feat of destruction, yet people continue to spout foolishness of sand traps emptying and rocks falling into place.... 

I am not a civil engineer and maybe I am gullible, but I have a hard time believing that a bunch of Jewish slaves moved rocks hundreds of miles overland and by sea for the pyramids and the other structures. Why is there no mention in Jewish literature of building the things? If they worked on them all that time, you'd think it would at least merit some mention.

One of the major obstacles in understanding history is that every war that has happened has resulted in the conquering nation destroying the previous nations libraries by fires etc. so there is very few records of the past other than hieroglyphs. One of the very few  libraries that survived all of this was one in Sumeria apparently and that was because they were written on cunieform or baked clay tablets. These were apparently translated by a school teacher and they revealed a rich history which mentioned aliens. If you read history from the ancients and substitute aliens for the words God, you have an elegant OR explanation.

I'm not saying I am right, I am saying that the jury is still out on this one. The most credible evidence points to: there's aliens in them thar hills. Maybe Obama is one... LOL Hey his head is a bit oblong.... LOL

[Iguana]

Humans can fool other humans in such easy ways that I  just don't believe in alien-mad crop-circles, let alone alien-autopsied cows or whatever. Much easier to believe in a simpler solution, that humans like to play pranks on each other.

Eh Tyler, it's not a matter of beliefs (positive or negative beliefs)! 

Obviously, there are more than just one or two crop-circle hoaxers, no need to bring in aliens to explain more simple solution. Occam's Razor is the only way to look at such implausibilities.

I wonder what is the simplest explanation to the known actual facts and I fail to see what is complex in the extraterrestrial hypothesis. On the contrary, I find that the theories made up to try to explain  all UFOs sightings and traces as being of local, non extra-terrestrial origin, are not only very complicated but also extremely implausible.

Moreover, Occam’s razor only applies when two (or more) theories equally explain all the known facts: then we choose the simplest one. But a prerequisite is that the theory must adequately explain all the known facts, otherwise the alternative theory which does it has to be chosen, even if it’s more complex.

[TylerDurden]

The trouble is that the simplest theory does indeed explain all the known facts.

Look, I've gone into this nonsense before, when reading von däniken and velikovsky. The more recent ones are just rehashing the old material one more time. It's like Stirner noted, when humans got rid of their gods, they simply replaced them with something else as their master, such as Humanity, or, as in this case, all-knowing, technologically-superior  aliens. Just get used to the fact that there are no superior beings out there so that you are unlikely to get an afterlife or ever experience a "higher purpose" or whatever. 

[Iguana]

The trouble is that the simplest theory does indeed explain all the known facts.

The simplest is the ETH ( Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis) and it’s the only one which explains all the known facts. The others can’t or are extremely complicated.

Look, I've gone into this nonsense before, when reading von däniken and velikovsky.

Ah, I also read von Däniken and I came to agree with you, he wrote a lot of nonsense. I didn’t read Velikovsky himself, but I also agree with you.

The more recent ones are just rehashing the old material one more time. It's like Stirner noted, when humans got rid of their gods, they simply replaced them with something else as their master, such as Humanity, or, as in this case, all-knowing, technologically-superior  aliens. Just get used to the fact that there are no superior beings out there so that you are unlikely to get an afterlife or ever experience a "higher purpose" or whatever. 

I’m not talking about such things, except that I don’t exclude at all the possibility that we are not the most scientifically and technologically advanced in the Galaxy. It would be very pretentious and anthropocentric to think so.

[TylerDurden]

The simplest is the ETH ( Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis) and it’s the only one which explains all the known facts. The others can’t or are extremely complicated.

  Err, no, the simplest explanation is that there are no aliens. The pyramids can easily be explained as being of human manufacture, UFOs in the sky can be ascribed to meteorological phenomena of various kinds or  drug-use or alcohol abuse  or whatever. Crop-circles and cow vivisections can be ascribed to farmers wanting some publicity, and so on.

There was an interesting claim re aliens once:-

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/are-alien-abductions-real.html

[Iguana]

Err, no, the simplest explanation is that there are no aliens.

Interesting… An even simpler explanation is that there are no other stars than our sun in the sky: the ones we see at night can be easily explained by optical illusions.

Ah, no, no, there’s even a simpler one: the solipsism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. The term comes from the Latin solus (alone) and ipse (self). As an epistemological position, solipsism holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure. The external world and other minds cannot be known, and might not exist outside the mind. As a metaphysical position, solipsism goes further to the conclusion that the world and other minds do not exist. As such it is the only epistemological position that, by its own postulate, is both irrefutable and yet indefensible in the same manner.

The pyramids can easily be explained as being of human manufacture,

Yes, sure, I agree. Raw-Al thinks they have been constructed by aliens or with alien’s technology and help. I wouldn’t say that’s impossible, but it’s quite possible (and likely) either that they have been entirely conceived and made by humans.     

UFOs in the sky can be ascribed to meteorological phenomena of various kinds or  drug-use or alcohol abuse  or whatever.

Wouldn’t it be very interesting to study these puzzling meteorological phenomena endowed with an intelligent behavior and sometimes even leaving footprints on the ground?

It’s well know that airline and air forces pilots as well as nuclear submarines commanders and guys in charge of ICBM bases are drugs and alcohol abusers, isn't it?   
 

Crop-circles and cow vivisections can be ascribed to farmers wanting some publicity, and so on.

Sure. It’s very easy to make a crop circle such as those ones. Farmers are amazing guys :





More there:
http://dailygeekshow.com/2012/12/12/les-18-plus-beaux-agroglyphes-ou-crop-circle-de-2012-en-images/
http://im-possible.info/english/art/misc/crop-circles.html

There was an interesting claim re aliens once:-
http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/are-alien-abductions-real.html

Yeah. These abductions stories are really weird and I don’t know what to think about it. The "simplest" explanation could be that the human mind is extremely complex, much more complex than anything we could ever imagine. 

[Hanna]

 From your link:
http://dailygeekshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/990iOH-with-UAV.jpg

What do these crop circles show? Is this a specimen of one of these extraterrestrial races, with the little hearts on the top of its antennae?

[Hanna]

The scientific consensus on crop circles is that most or all are constructed by human hands as a prank ... Methods of creating a crop circle are now well documented on the Internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circle#Man-made

[majormark]

I think some crop circles are man made and some are not, due to the precision and timing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI-P3qVJ2c0

Regarding "official" alien contact, according to theories - including Bashar, this will only happen if human consciousness evolves to a point where such a thing would not be detrimental to ourselves. It's more like when we discover an uncontacted tribe in the jungle. We normally don't go straight to them and show them some iPads to freak them out. In the same way, other evolved civilizations do not interfere directly on a large scale and wait for us to ease into this idea first and be somehow ready.
More on this idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4juznhkBGA

[TylerDurden]

What I find bizarre is the notion that aliens would care about us at all. I mean, if they are so far ahead of us technologically, the chances are that they view us as we do shore-slime, and probably blow up planets on a whim, like human children  squash insects.  Then there is the issue that if there is one alien species there must also be others out there, in which case why would they bother with us when they have so many other, more interesting, more advanced species to deal with than us?