Author Topic: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression  (Read 3926 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,828
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« on: March 19, 2013, 12:38:46 am »
Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression

So, this is going to be a very sour reading of what has happened in Cyprus this weekend. It will also be a very partisan one, possibly even a partial one. But if Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz were right in their insistence that it was actually the Federal Reserve that caused the Great Depression (which is something that Ben Bernanke himself has insisted that the Fed will not repeat) then one way of interpreting what has happened is that the European Central Bank has just set us all up for another Depression. The trigger is that “tax” of a little over 6% on all depositors.

This isn’t an analysis that you’ll be able to get all economists to sign up to. But the basic story told by Friedman and Schwartz in “A Monetary History of the United States” was that the 1929 crash was indeed a serious crash. But it would not have led to the Great Depression without the Federal Reserve making some serious mistakes. Two of which were to allow the intertwined collapses of both the money supply and the banking system. Given that it is the banks that create credit and thus the wider money supply they are, to a great extent, the same thing.

The actual process was the series of bank runs that happened through the early 1930s. The problem is that in a fractional reserve banking system banks are inherently unstable. The fractional refers to the fact that when you deposit $100 with one they don’t then keep that $100 in the safe. They take a guess at how much they need in the safe (OK, it’s an informed guess, but it is a guess) for when people turn up demanding their cash and the rest of it they lend out to other people. This is how companies, mortgages and business loans are financed (please, we don’t need to go into “ but loans finance deposits” and all that: it might even be true but it’s irrelevant here).

Which means that if everyone does turn up at the same time demanding their cash then the bank cannot pay out and goes bust. This is, you’ll recall, one of the major plot devices in “It’s a Wonderful Life”. Your money isn’t in the bank, it’s in the house of your neighbour down the street.

Thus banks are inherently unstable institutions. There’s even an architectural thought that the reason that bank buildings are always so imposing is to fool us about this inherent fragility.

What Friedman pointed out was that in the early 1930s many banks were indeed bust. But many more were not in fact so: they were brought down by people thinking they might be and thus turning up en masse to demand their money: a bank run. The solution to which is to have deposit insurance. The government, via the offices of the central bank, agrees to fund banks with as much cash as they need in order to be able to pay off depositors. It’s slightly more complex than that but not much. There are limits as to how much any one depositor can get back for example.

So, we had a problem, bank runs, brought on by the simple nature of fractional reserve banking. We have a solution, deposit insurance. Something which isn’t free by the way. The FDIC certainly charges the banks for it in the US and depositors pay it by getting a lower interest rate than they otherwise would.

And we pretty much didn’t have bank runs after we had deposit insurance. We certainly didn’t have retail bank runs (those much larger commercial depositors, who weren’t insured, did kill a few banks, but we didn’t see crowds of retail customers fighting for their life’s savings outside shuttered branches).

But please note the central part of Friedman’s argument. Yes, there was the crash. Yes, there would have been a deep and painful recession as a result. But the tipping of that recession into depression was a result of the cascading series of bank failures in the absence of deposit insurance: that led to the calamitous shrinking of credit and the money supply.

So let us now look at Europe and the eurozone. Certainly there’s been a crash (or even a Crash). We’ve so far avoided the depression part (although not everywhere. Greece is certainly in one, Spain possibly and looking out my window at rural Portugal I see certain signs of a reversion to a non-cash economy.) but the important question is whether we manage to continue to do so?

Clearly, there are more ways to get into a depression than just cascading bank failures. The end point of all out war is another just as an example. But, again if we buy Friedman’s explanation, we know that cascading bank failures will cause one. And the way not to have those is deposit insurance. So, what have they just done in Cyprus? They’ve removed deposit insurance. They’ve therefore just removed our defence against bank runs and thus cascading bank failures.

Yes, I do know, they’ve called it a tax: but here we’ve got to make reference to that duck thing. The difference between a 6% or more “tax” on your bank deposit and a failure of the previously agreed deposit insurance to protect your deposit is quackery enough that it’s a duck.

As I’ve said before the importance of this is moot at present. It depends on who believes what. If the citizenry believe that they don’t have deposit insurance any more (whether we call this a tax or a duck) then we will see more mass withdrawals from banks and we will see more bank failures. And cascading bank failures are exactly the thing that will tumble us into a new depression.

I had actually thought that we’d seen peak stupidity already in this euro crisis. The state guarantee by Ireland of all bonds and deposits in Irish banks. Note, they guaranteed absolutely without limit. That has oft been marked as an incredibly silly thing to do by people vastly cleverer than I am. But my worry is that this Cypriot decision is even worse. Even if this “tax” is never used again, even if it really is a one off, some significant portion of the populace simply aren’t going to trust government protestations of deposit insurance in the future. Which will, inevitably, lead to cascading bank failures.

My worry is that some future Friedman, some monetary scholar of the future, will write in her history of these times that it was this, this one action, this one moment, that was the gibbering insanity that crashed the system for a decade or more.

Yes, this is very gloomy, quite possibly much too so. But one of the strangenesses of this age is that the Federal Reserve is on record as stating that Friedman’s analysis of the early 1930s was pretty much spot on. Unfortunately, the European Central Bank is well known as never having quite bought that analysis. And they’re most certainly not acting as if they do.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/03/17/cyprus-bailout-welcome-to-another-great-depression/
Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,828
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2013, 12:40:21 am »
So it seems bank runs will happen all over the Eurozone and very very soon.  And when this happens a new depression sets in?  I wonder what tools they have to stave that off.

But how about opportunities?

How do we make money from this upcoming new misery of depression?
Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline ys

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,323
    • View Profile
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2013, 02:04:35 am »
Why is it sour to you?  Are you keeping your money in Cyprus banks?

I find it too amusing.  The bulk of the money being kept in Cyprus banks are laundered Russian money.

I don't see bankruns happening anytime soon.

If EU gets tired bailing out Cyprus, they will simply exit Euro and start printing their own currency.
Same thing with Greece.

If it spreads to Italy and Spain it'll be the end of Euro.  It would be another failed attempt to dethrone all-mighty dollar.  Dollar would be in huge demand and Fed can print another few trillion dollars without any fear of inflation.

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,828
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2013, 06:44:37 am »
Nice comment found:

we're all alive to witness the greatest time in human history. the global collapse of centralized banking. to watch people say it won't happen is hilarious. my family is a goldman sachs family. my grandfather was COO at goldman, and my uncle was chief financial operations manager. they said for years that it would eventually collapse. there was no debate about it. fiat can only go so far. to believe it won't crash is the crazy belief. there is no historical precedent of it not collapsing. so having faith in imaginary money is something economists bank on most people having for this to survive, that illusion is over. if a bank can take your money without your permission, nobody has faith.

people are still not grasping how big this is going to get. the bank run in cyprus will happen, is happening, after that italy and spain will be next, the banks will all scramble to get what they can before the runs hit full steam. banks will close, nations will halt their trading.

the united states now has around 50 trillion dollars invested in the euro. if the euro collapses 1/3 of all global worth disappears overnight. there will be nowhere to safely put money. nations will not be able to fund themselves within a week. there will be no money to pay police. food will be an issue quickly.

money won't be worthless immediately, but it will be scarce, so there is still time to get your money out. and my family is doing exactly that. feel free to disregard it all. like i said though, history is not on your side. having faith in paper IS the radical side to this situation. ron paul was right about fiat currency, just as andrew jackson was. ron paul has said multiple times he's just waiting for fiat currency to run its course because nothing can really get done until this plays out. he's right. bank runs have never been self contained, they spread faster than disease.

now that this precedent has been set, they will all follow, because why wouldn't they? they don't care about you or the law. if it makes financial sense to do it they will. if they spend $50 million in fines to make a $1 billion they will. if bank runs happen they will shut the fucking bank down and laugh at you on the street begging for "your" money. they can do this because unless you have it in your hands, it isn't your money, it's theirs, it's in their reserves.

it's no secret that there isn't actually enough money for everyone to take theirs out, it's posted directly on the reserves website, that's how fiat works. it's all imaginary, and illusion, and when that illusion gets exposed it collapses.

this has happened dozens of times in the last 2 thousand years and will happen again.
Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline zbr5

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
    • View Profile
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2013, 06:50:51 pm »
Great comment GS - where is it from?

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2013, 08:27:13 pm »
My cousin is an Ambassador in Cyprus at the moment. I'm hoping to hear from him in a few days as to the situation - thank god that he doesn't own a bank account there. Well, if only the rich are affected, who cares? It would be really stupid for the Cypriot government to target the poor indigenous folk  as well as the  overly wealthy Russian mobsters.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,828
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2013, 09:12:36 pm »
Great comment GS - where is it from?


Some anonymous coward in godlikeproductions.com

My cousin is an Ambassador in Cyprus at the moment. I'm hoping to hear from him in a few days as to the situation - thank god that he doesn't own a bank account there. Well, if only the rich are affected, who cares? It would be really stupid for the Cypriot government to target the poor indigenous folk  as well as the  overly wealthy Russian mobsters.

I'm wondering if the politicians aren't the least bit afraid of russian mafia vengeance.
Hope to hear from your ambassador cousin soon.
Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline goodsamaritan

  • Administrator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,828
  • Gender: Male
  • Geek Healer Truth Seeker Pro-Natal Pro-Life
    • View Profile
    • Filipino Services Inc.
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2013, 09:50:04 pm »
“People need to grasp that this is not about $130 billion.  The real dollar figure is orders of magnitudes larger than that number.  How much higher we’ll never know, but it is massive.  This is the Bank of Russia we are talking about here.  The Central Bank of Russia is for the people in Russia.  What the IMF went after here is the central bank of the Russian elite and former KGB, and the Russians simply will not stand still for that.”

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2013/3/19_Sinclair_-_Cyprus_Disaster_Is_Much_Bigger_Than_Being_Reported.html
Linux Geek, Web Developer, Email Provider, Businessman, Engineer, REAL Free Healer, Pro-Life, Pro-Family, Truther, Ripple-XRP Fan

I'm the network administrator.
My business: Website Dev & Hosting and Email Server Provider,
My blogs: Cure Manual, My Health Blog, Eczema Cure & Psoriasis Cure

Offline RogueFarmer

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 575
    • View Profile
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2013, 10:23:59 pm »
Thank god all my wealth has a pulse and walks around on 4 legs.

Offline ys

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,323
    • View Profile
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2013, 02:28:02 am »
Don't worry about Cyprus.

"While the bailout of Cyprus is a fascinating case study and raises interesting theoretical questions about moral hazard for policy wonks and talking heads, here is the reality: It is largely irrelevant to the global economy. Cyprus is tiny; its economy is smaller than Vermont’s. And the bailout is worth a paltry $13 billion, the equivalent of pocket lint for those in the bailout game."

"Cyprus is unique. Besides being tiny, its banking system looks different from those in most other countries. Much of the big money deposited in its banks is from foreign investors, including Russians who have long been suspected of money laundering. Those investors had fair warning that Cypriot banks were troubled. The issue has been simmering for six months. But those investors left their money in the bank, in part because they were gambling that the banks would be bailed out at no cost to them. If the current plan is approved, depositors will have lost that bet."

"There is very little chance that politicians would ever choose to use the model they developed in Cyprus in a country like Italy or Spain, where a run on the banks would have such profound implications. By the way, if you’re wondering why investors left so much money in troubled Cypriot banks, here’s a trivia question: Would you have been better off leaving your money in a bank in the United States or in Cyprus over the last five years?"


Full article http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/03/18/a-bank-levy-in-cyprus-and-why/?ref=todayspaper

Offline wodgina

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,304
  • Opportunistic Carnivore
    • View Profile
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2013, 06:12:25 pm »
Thank god all my wealth has a pulse and walks around on 4 legs.

Tell us more RF

I just don't believe you
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

Offline ys

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,323
    • View Profile
Re: Cyprus Bailout: Welcome To Another Great Depression
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2013, 03:59:22 am »
Looks like Cyprus is going to raid Russian deposits anyway. It's either this or default.  I think they should have announced default and get out of Euro.  Does not matter.  They probably are going to default anyway in a year or two.

With banking industry virtually wiped out and no ability to print money themselves Cyprus is not going to last long.  Joining Euro was a big mistake.

The whole Euro project is a big disaster.  Strong Euro is hurting Spain, Greece, and Italy badly.  It is possible they never recover and will have no choice but to abandon Euro.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 04:07:23 am by ys »

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk