Author Topic: Raw Eggs  (Read 49584 times)

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Offline raw-al

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2013, 01:53:41 am »
so you eat lake caught fish? I heard this wasnt safe.
Where did you hear that?
Cheers
Al

Offline svrn

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2013, 03:53:34 am »
a lot of people on this board say theres more parasites and stuff in lake fish. Also the lakes are supposed to be a lot more polluted.

i should i heard it not safe to eat RAW
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2013, 07:15:53 pm »
Fish from lakes and rivers haven't killed me yet after over 4 decades of occasionally eating fish from lakes and rivers (albeit mostly cooked). The rumors tend to come from fears about mercury or parasites. Most of the fish I eat are small and therefore relatively low in mercury and I'm not afraid of the parasites that are common in fish in my area.

There is also more pollution in general in lakes than rivers. The bay and river I usually fish in do have some pollution, but where I fish is not the worst parts and overall they're not that bad. A small amount of mercury or other pollution can even be hormetically beneficial, maybe especially when one has sufficient selenium and other factors to help with the detoxification process. I think Aajonus and Tyler may have written something along those lines in the past.

Plus, I've seen reasons proposed for not eating every food on the planet. I've got to eat something.

However, if you fear eating fish from lakes or rivers, then I wouldn't advise eating them, unless you think it might help you overcome the fear, as the fear itself could harm you. Hormesis reportedly works best when it is voluntary and a person feels good about doing it: http://gettingstronger.org/2011/09/voluntary-stress/
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 09:21:07 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2013, 01:07:30 am »
so am I correct in that you eat fish you caught in rivers raw and not cooked ?
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #79 on: May 20, 2013, 02:21:00 am »
Both raw and cooked.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #80 on: May 20, 2013, 07:41:05 am »
So both you and raw al eat the lake fish raw with no problems?

If so this will be great for me. I have access lots of delicious looking lake caught fish.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #81 on: May 20, 2013, 07:50:39 am »
Yup, none yet. Of course, your lake and fish are not necessarily the same.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline svrn

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #82 on: May 20, 2013, 08:02:10 am »
i have access to a lake on which no gas powered boats or vehicles of any kind are allowed. Only electric.

Would this indicate a clean lake or should I check other things?
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #83 on: May 20, 2013, 08:38:35 am »
It suggests it. If you have seen anyone fishing, that is another suggestion. You could also ask someone who knows the lake or search the Internet for info on the lake, until you feel comfortable about it.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw Eggs / Milk
« Reply #84 on: July 17, 2013, 09:26:26 pm »
Quote
Quote from: HIT_it_RAW on May 16, 2013, 10:24:12 PM
The notion that our instincts work for raw meat but not raw dairy is IMO absurd.

Well said. It is a natural raw food substance that our alliesthetic instincts should work with, if GCB is correct about food instincts.  :)

Then our alliesthetic instincts should work fine as well with grilled or heated food because there's always been sometimes food grilled on volcanic lava, by a wildfire ignited by a lightning, or heated on a rock in the sun. The fact that a little bit of milk could sometimes be found in nature doesn't mean that we are well adapted to dairy.

Another point: the alliesthetic instinct is not an “all or nothing” function. It works also to a certain extend with cooked food, mixed food, dairy. But not well enough to ensure a proper balance. 

Only the experience can tell and so far all experiments done in Switzerland and France with the best raw milk from entirely grass fed cows, goats or sheep (AFAIK none of us has ever been able to get milk from a wild animal) have been a disaster. But the person must have been eating 100% raw paleo for a sufficiently long period (at least several months, perhaps a year or two) to allow a depart of tolerance. Otherwise nothing will happen in the short term.

Sorry for the late answer, I was busy moving to Portugal.

Cheers
François
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 09:48:58 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline raw-al

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Re: Raw Eggs / Milk
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2013, 02:31:18 am »
Then our alliesthetic instincts should work fine as well with grilled or heated food because there's always been sometimes food grilled on volcanic lava, by a wildfire ignited by a lightning, or heated on a rock in the sun. The fact that a little bit of milk could sometimes be found in nature doesn't mean that we are well adapted to dairy.

Another point: the alliesthetic instinct is not an “all or nothing” function. It works also to a certain extend with cooked food, mixed food, dairy. But not well enough to ensure a proper balance. 

Only the experience can tell and so far all experiments done in Switzerland and France with the best raw milk from entirely grass fed cows, goats or sheep (AFAIK none of us has ever been able to get milk from a wild animal) have been a disaster. But the person must have been eating 100% raw paleo for a sufficiently long period (at least several months, perhaps a year or two) to allow a depart of tolerance. Otherwise nothing will happen in the short term.

Sorry for the late answer, I was busy moving to Portugal.

Cheers
François

Nothing like experience to blow away silly theories and "science experiments".

My experience and that of quite a few friends that consume raw dairy is..... no problemo. I also know some people who do have problems with it. Just like all foods.

Cooked is another topic altogether.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 06:21:09 am by Iguana »
Cheers
Al

Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw Eggs / Milk
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2013, 04:25:09 am »
I'm not speaking about "science experiments" but about experiences in real life with real persons. The "silly theory", as you call it, was devised following these experiences, to provide an explanation of what was observed in practice.

For the hundredth time, has anyone of the dairy promoters on this raw paleo forum been long enough without consuming any dairy to get out of tolerance before  reintroducing it? Otherwise, as I just wrote in my above post, no problems will show up, at least in the short term.

Cooking is not at all a completely different topic: a majority of our ancestors had been cooking since a few hundreds thousands years while dairy consumption became common even more recently. Our pre-fire-mastery ancestors didn't have milk as a regular food, if they ever had any at all. We are on a raw paleo forum and paleonutrition excludes dairy as well as cereal grains. Otherwise, you'd have to redefine what a paleo diet means.

Cheers 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 04:37:22 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline raw-al

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Re: Raw Eggs / Milk
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2013, 05:05:34 am »
For the hundredth time, has anyone of the dairy promoters on this raw paleo forum been long enough without consuming any dairy to get out of tolerance before  reintroducing it? Otherwise, as I just wrote in my above post, no problems will show up, at least in the short term.
Cheers
I recently went quite awhile off of dairy when I moved and had to reconnect with a producer. I did not experience any untoward symptoms except when I bought some pasteurized dairy PD garbage which predictably started giving me all the symptoms of lactose intolerance.

This I knew from before as I had an enlarged prostate for years (presumably from PD as it stopped being problematic when I gave up PD) which was only 'fixed' when my friend used his Rife device. It is now operating as designed.

For me the problems show up fairly fast.

I know one woman who drinks some raw dairy (milk cheese yogurt) because she is breast feeding two children and she doesn't think she has enough milk without the dairy supplement. She doesn't particularly like it and  she predictably has constant issues such as; phleghm and upper respiratory tract infections. These are issues that in Ayurveda are referred to as Kapha problems.

I have repeatedly suggested she go off of dairy or at the very least only have small amounts or have it with certain spices, which will make it more digestible, but like Kaphas everywhere,  ;D she is a wee bit stubborn. Being a mother with two babes breastfeeding gives her the right to make up her own mind.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 10:06:54 am by TylerDurden »
Cheers
Al

Offline raw-al

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Re: Raw Eggs / Milk
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2013, 05:15:27 am »
Only the experience can tell and so far all experiments done in Switzerland and France with the best raw milk from entirely grass fed cows, goats or sheep (AFAIK none of us has ever been able to get milk from a wild animal) have been a disaster.

Like all experiments there are always wild cards that are impossible to factor out completely. A better example would have been the Swiss people that Weston Price visited back about 100 years ago before the people were infested by the diets of outsiders...

Here is an excerpt from this page http://www.westonaprice.org/thumbs-up-reviews/nutrition-and-physical-degeneration about the fifth paragraph.

"The diets of the healthy "primitives" Price studied were all very different: In the Swiss village where Price began his investigations, the inhabitants lived on rich dairy products--unpasteurized milk, butter, cream and cheese--dense rye bread, meat occasionally, bone broth soups and the few vegetables they could cultivate during the short summer months. The children never brushed their teeth--in fact their teeth were covered in green slime--but Price found that only about one percent of the teeth had any decay at all. The children went barefoot in frigid streams during weather that forced Dr. Price and his wife to wear heavy wool coats; nevertheless childhood illnesses were virtually nonexistent and there had never been a single case of TB in the village."

Another interesting section
"Price took samples of native foods home with him to Cleveland and studied them in his laboratory. He found that these diets contained at least four times the minerals as the American diet of his day. Price would undoubtedly find a greater discrepancy in the 1990s due to continual depletion of our soils through industrial farming practices. What's more, among traditional populations, grains and tubers were prepared in ways that increased vitamin content and made minerals more available--soaking, fermenting, sprouting and sour leavening.
It was when Price analyzed the fat soluble vitamins that he got a real surprise. The diets of healthy native groups contained at least ten times more vitamin A and vitamin D than the American diet of his day! These vitamins are found only in animal fats--butter, lard, egg yolks, fish oils and foods with fat-rich cellular membranes like liver and other organ meats, fish eggs and shell fish.
Price describes the fat soluble vitamins as "catalysts" or "activators" upon which the assimilation of all the other nutrients depended--protein, minerals and vitamins. In other words, without the dietary factors found in animal fats, all the other nutrients largely go to waste.
In Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, Price discusses another fat soluble vitamin that was a more powerful catalyst for nutrient absorption than vitamins A and D. He called it "Activator X". All the healthy groups Price studied had the X Factor in their diets. It could be found in certain special foods which these people considered sacred--cod liver oil, fish eggs, organ meats and the deep yellow Spring and Fall butter from cows eating rapidly growing green grass. When the snows melted and the cows could go up to the rich pastures above their village, the Swiss placed a bowl of such butter on the church altar and lit a wick in it. The Masai set fire to yellow fields so that new grass could grow for their cows. Hunter-gatherers always ate the organ meats of the game they killed--often raw. Liver was held to be sacred by many African tribes. The Eskimos and many Indian tribes put a very high value on fish eggs. Activator X is now believed to be the fat-soluble vitamin K2; read Chris Masterjohn's article to see how this 60-year mystery was finally solved."

I suggest reading the full article if you have the time.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 06:21:47 am by Iguana »
Cheers
Al

Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw Eggs / Milk
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2013, 06:06:21 am »
Al, I’m Swiss myself and I spent most of my life in Lausanne, only a 100 km away from those valleys in Valais, which I know very well. An "instincto" good friend of mine is even living there. Yes, I believe those mountaineers had a healthier life than most people in the plains. Yes, raw dairy is better than pasteurized dairy. Yes, I believe children had almost no tooth decay and no TB there.

Then what? What about the health of elders, what about other diseases? What were they dying from? What would have been their health state if the had seafood, more meat and cempedaks  ;) instead of dairy? Who knows? Did Price study all that? It’s impossible to know and to check nowadays what Price said because his study of those valleys' people seems to be the only one and AFAIK is not supported by other studies or statistics.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 10:08:26 am by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline raw-al

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #90 on: July 18, 2013, 06:42:46 am »
Al, I’m Swiss myself and I spent most of my life in Lausanne, only a 100 km away from those valleys in Valais, which I know very well. An "instincto" good friend of mine is even living there. Yes, I believe those mountaineers had a healthier life than most people in the plains. Yes, raw dairy is better than pasteurized dairy. Yes, I believe children had almost no tooth decay and no TB there.

Then what? What about the health of elders, what about other diseases? What were they dying from? What would have been their health state if the had seafood, more meat and cempedaks  ;) instead of dairy? Who knows? Did Price studied all that? It’s impossible to know and to check nowadays what Price said because his study of those valleys' people seems to be the only one and AFAIK is not supported by other studies or statistics.
I don't think you can easily dismiss WP, however I am not suggesting people follow him. His observations were pretty clear and follow the same vein as other places in the world. I've been to places inside the Arctic Circle and seen the destruction of the native populations by us Honkies.

The way I see it, anybody in those communities who had problems with dairy etc simply died and so were out of the gene pool. Same is true with the Inuit etc. If you were unable to live on seal blubber you died.

Truth is none of us truly eat like the true RPDieters of yore, because as you show in your picture, we don't eat anything that our paleo ancestors ate.... Tuna is a deep sea fish, so it is no more paleo than milk..... :o

You eat a raw diet, not a raw paleo diet.
Cheers
Al

Offline raw-al

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #91 on: July 18, 2013, 06:56:32 am »
Iguana,
my paternal grandmother is from Switzerland as well as some good friends here in Canada. Sounds like an interesting and beautiful place.
Cheers
Al

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Eggs / Milk
« Reply #92 on: July 18, 2013, 07:21:10 am »
Of course the fact that milk was likely consumed during the Paleolithic and continues to be consumed by some hunter-gatherers and many pastoralist peoples today and a number of people who have shared positive raw dairy experiences in this forum and others doesn't necessarily guarantee that we are all adapted to it or any other food; nor does it guarantee that all of us are not at all adapted to it either. These are just some clues among many that I cannot ignore if I am to be honest with myself.

I was attracted to this forum in part because it did not officially promote dairy, having encountered some vocal pro-dairy zealots at another forum, but I think the anti-dairy talk from some folks goes overboard at times. I know it's well-intentioned, but it's probably counter-productive when it reaches a certain point. I can understand it to some degree, given what I've seen from overzealous dairy advocates over the years.

Based on peoples' reports I've seen and the totality of the evidence (of all types) to date, dairy of one form or another appears to be beneficial to some and not to others.

the alliesthetic instinct is not an “all or nothing” function. It works also to a certain extend with cooked food, mixed food, dairy. But not well enough to ensure a proper balance. 

Only the experience can tell and so far all experiments done in Switzerland and France with the best raw milk from entirely grass fed cows, goats or sheep (AFAIK none of us has ever been able to get milk from a wild animal) have been a disaster.
Your experience differs from many others I have seen report here and elsewhere. Some tout dairy or raw dairy or certain forms of raw dairy as a perfect miracle food and others condemn it as an evil poison. My assessment so far lies between the two extremes.

Why do you want a departure of tolerance and why is it necessary? Is departure of tolerance a guarantee of improved health in every case? I don't have good tolerance of most carby foods, but I don't dismiss all positive reports regarding fruits, roots, tubers and squashes because of this and I don't assume their positive reports are only because they didn't first achieve poor tolerance. Poor tolerance could be a sign of deficiencies in nutrients and antioxidants like minerals, glutathione, B6 and so on, allergies, gut dysbiosis, metabolic dysfunction and so on. For some of us, rather than just coddle our dysfunctions by avoiding dairy or carby foods for the rest of our lives, maybe it makes sense to try to remedy the dysfunctions that are causing the poor tolerances?

As I've discussed before, my definition of Paleo is not necessarily the staple foods that most or all people ate during the Stone Age, but the foods that each individual is best biologically/metabolically/nutritionally adapted to and that will help them meet their individual health goals. Isn't the goal for most to improve their health, performance, or well being rather than devotedly re-enact the past regardless of the consequences? The scant Stone Age (and earlier) dietary evidence we have is a clue, not a final answer.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 07:51:55 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #93 on: July 18, 2013, 08:49:14 am »
Excellent post, Phil. 

Offline raw-al

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Cheers
Al

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #95 on: July 18, 2013, 10:06:51 am »
ROFL

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #96 on: July 18, 2013, 10:10:31 am »
Truth is none of us truly eat like the true RPDieters of yore, because as you show in your picture, we don't eat anything that our paleo ancestors ate.... Tuna is a deep sea fish, so it is no more paleo than milk..... :o

You eat a raw diet, not a raw paleo diet.
Well, towards the end of the Palaeolithic era, humans did cross  to Australia and Polynesia etc. , so they likely did eat deep-sea fish then. Perhaps even before.... who knows?
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Offline raw-al

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #97 on: July 18, 2013, 01:00:56 pm »
Well, towards the end of the Palaeolithic era, humans did cross  to Australia and Polynesia etc. , so they likely did eat deep-sea fish then. Perhaps even before.... who knows?
Hmm that sounds a bit like the silly argument that people ate the milk from a female animal they killed.  ;D I mean maybe, well sort of, possibly... However thanks for the info, you have a wide knowledge base.
Cheers
Al

Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw Eggs / Milk
« Reply #98 on: July 18, 2013, 04:30:41 pm »

Why do you want a departure of tolerance and why is it necessary? Is departure of tolerance a guarantee of improved health in every case? I don't have good tolerance of most carby foods, but I don't dismiss all positive reports regarding fruits, roots, tubers and squashes because of this and I don't assume their positive reports are only because they didn't first achieve poor tolerance. Poor tolerance could be a sign of deficiencies in nutrients and antioxidants like minerals, glutathione, B6 and so on, allergies, gut dysbiosis, metabolic dysfunction and so on. For some of us, rather than just coddle our dysfunctions by avoiding dairy or carby foods for the rest of our lives, maybe it makes sense to try to remedy the dysfunctions that are causing the poor tolerances?

Thanks to finally be someone who ask it, because I was rather sure none here understand what I mean!

Well, it’s not at all what you talk about, which is a completely opposite thing. What I talk about is the immune system tolerance (dysfunction) induced by a constant and repetitive exposure to something noxious. For example, by regularly smoking or drinking booze, people become able to do it without any apparent negative effect because their body finally stopped to try to expel a  poison to which it is constantly exposed, their immune system being overwhelmed and thus stopping to operate against that particular nuisance. A slow, gradual poisoning takes place then and the final result shows up several years or decades latter. 

The same happen with cooked food and dairy. As long as you regularly consume it, no detoxination happen.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Raw Eggs
« Reply #99 on: July 18, 2013, 05:11:18 pm »
>> The same happen with cooked food and dairy. As long as you regularly consume it, no detoxination happen.

Sounds good!
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