Author Topic: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis  (Read 9549 times)

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Offline Nicola

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Offline Guittarman03

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2009, 07:22:46 am »
Good article.  Thanks for posting.
When you consume an organism it loses individuality, but its biological life never ends.  Digestion is merely a transfer of its life to mine.

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2009, 11:36:26 pm »
Thanks, Nicola.

This helps.

Offline TheWayCreatesTheWarrior

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2009, 01:06:29 am »

do you have a link to what hes written on omega-3 supplementation?
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Offline TheWayCreatesTheWarrior

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2009, 01:23:14 am »
"Biochemically, ketones are the #1 preferred fuel of
the following organs: the skeletal muscles, the heart, and the liver"


why is it that i feel sore longer after exercise if i dont consume many carbs?
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Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2009, 04:22:37 am »
Maybe because your body isn't hooked up to use the ketones because you're full of the enzymes for using carbs. I've been led to believe reading about ketone adaptation that you have to stop eating carbs for a while to entice your body into producing more of the ketone using enzymes, at which point you can take full advantage of that fuel supply but less so of carbs.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2009, 05:39:11 pm »
Wonderful find Nicola!  Thank you.
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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2009, 09:56:17 pm »
Peskin has done some brilliant and most useful work, too bad that he is pushing seed oil.

Back to the quest for grassfed organic fat. Has anyone solved that puzzle?

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2009, 10:25:39 pm »
Peskin has done some brilliant and most useful work, too bad that he is pushing seed oil.

Back to the quest for grassfed organic fat. Has anyone solved that puzzle?

Do you mean finding it? You can get it on the cheap from grass fed farms.

William

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2009, 05:18:39 am »
Do you mean finding it? You can get it on the cheap from grass fed farms.

In my area, they are slaughtered at no more than 30 months. No hide fat, only that around the kidneys, and that isn't nearly enough.

If there's lots of fat, either it is from an old animal (and farmers cannot afford to keep them around) or your source is lying and it's finished on grain.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2009, 06:52:37 am »
Well I buy from Slankers and they're very serious about their grass fed claims. How could an animal survive without any hide fat? Seems kind of strange to me, ox and bison are cold weather animals.

William

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2009, 08:28:27 am »
Oxen are like teenagers, skinny 'til their old enough.

On the rawpaleodiet list I asked an experienced cattleman, he says they must be about 3 years old before there is enough fat.
Complicating is the suspicion that butchers hoard good beef fat.

Slankers is probably big enough to afford to have the older animals.

Satya

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 11:35:03 am »
Well I buy from Slankers and they're very serious about their grass fed claims. How could an animal survive without any hide fat? Seems kind of strange to me, ox and bison are cold weather animals.

Slankers sells some of their meat from 3rd parties.  Do you know for sure that all of the meat they sell is 100% grass fed?  I am in Texas, and I have been into grassfed meat for over 5 years.  I have spoken to local traditional farmers who have been approached by Slankers to sell their meat, and apparently, there are not many questions asked about how the 3rd party meat is raised.  Talk about a loophole!  It's easy to claim that you are raising all of your animals 100% grassfed; but if you are selling from others, then what does that mean?  I don't know.  I have never purchased from nor recommended Slankers first hand, as I have a better, smaller, local supplier.  Ask the right questions from your farmers and support the ones whom you can trust.

William

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2009, 12:18:33 pm »
http://www.brianpeskin.com/reports/Ketosis.pdf

Not as good as it looked at first.
I did some sniffing around the various pages, and it's like this: Long time ago, there were snake oils salesmen. People got wise to them, no more snake oil. Now they sell seed oil.
Peskin is pushing seed oil.

There is still value in his work, where he describes the composition and function of cell walls, and these are supported only by fats that contain the correct ratio of omega 6 to omega 3, and he warns against fish oils, rightly.
We already know this, as this is the ratio in the fat of grassfed organic beef. (so hard to find)

Offline TheWayCreatesTheWarrior

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2009, 08:58:45 pm »
Maybe because your body isn't hooked up to use the ketones because you're full of the enzymes for using carbs. I've been led to believe reading about ketone adaptation that you have to stop eating carbs for a while to entice your body into producing more of the ketone using enzymes, at which point you can take full advantage of that fuel supply but less so of carbs.

Kyle, have you spent any periods at almost zero carbs and been able to recover effectively from your MMA training?
There can be no mercy in the heart, of the heart, of the Wolf.

Satya

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2009, 12:26:18 am »
Ask the right questions from your farmers and support the ones whom you can trust.

And in the spirit of asking the right questions, let me share the questionnaire I ask every farmer to fill out before I will list them on my local Texas farms list.  I don't think I address 3rd party farm sources.  I forget.  But this document has no copyright.  It may be changed and used as anyone sees fit.

It's unfortunate but true that some farmers are more into the extra money they can get from the "natural," "organic," or "grassfed" labels than they are about actually using traditional techniques to raise animals.  So it is really vital to talk with your food producer and have a level of trust with them, whoever they are.

Oh, and really, water sources should be a concern as well, especially for big land animals that come from TX.  Our water can contain high levels of both naturally occurring fluorine and selenium, depending on the location.  The soil can also be high in selenium, but this is variable.  So you may want to ask if any filtration device is used for well water, as well water will be the most likely source.  The well water here is very good, but there has been natural gas drilling and coal production all over TX.  These processes can contaminate ground water.  In fact, I recently ordered a reverse osmosis filter to replace the carbon block I have been using.  Better safe than sorry, and I just can't afford frequent testing for all possible contaminants. 

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2009, 07:57:27 am »
Kyle, have you spent any periods at almost zero carbs and been able to recover effectively from your MMA training?

No I haven't. I haven't been able to do zero carb just as a hunger thing let alone while training hard.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2009, 07:59:41 am »
So my question is, since a good many of us (perhaps all) here believe that at some point in human history the major dietary constituents were almost entirely of animal origin (not counting dairy or eggs) and there weren't enough calories from carbs to avoid protein poisoning so it must have been fat as the energy nutrient, how does that jive with grass fed animals not storing enough fat for that very purpose?

Online TylerDurden

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2009, 09:12:15 pm »
So my question is, since a good many of us (perhaps all) here believe that at some point in human history the major dietary constituents were almost entirely of animal origin (not counting dairy or eggs) and there weren't enough calories from carbs to avoid protein poisoning so it must have been fat as the energy nutrient, how does that jive with grass fed animals not storing enough fat for that very purpose?

First of all, I'm highly sceptical of the notion that our ancestors never ate carbs. I mean they were opportunists, not interested in a "zero-carb" diet. It makes sense that they went in primarily for nutrient-denser animal foods, as herbivores and omnivores have to spend a huge amount of time on eating/searching for food if eating mostly plants. Also, I get extremely sceptical of the whole "rabbit-starvation" concept. I get the impression that lower levels of animal-fat are needed than what is recommended on zero-carb forums, in order to avoid rabbit-starvation.
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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2009, 10:10:44 pm »
First of all, I'm highly sceptical of the notion that our ancestors never ate carbs. I mean they were opportunists, not interested in a "zero-carb" diet. It makes sense that they went in primarily for nutrient-denser animal foods, as herbivores and omnivores have to spend a huge amount of time on eating/searching for food if eating mostly plants. Also, I get extremely sceptical of the whole "rabbit-starvation" concept. I get the impression that lower levels of animal-fat are needed than what is recommended on zero-carb forums, in order to avoid rabbit-starvation.

Not only that, but the fat content of a grassfed ruminant will be dependent on such factors as the types of pastures available, the age at slaughter, the breed of animal and others.  My rancher tells me grassfed meat can run the gamut of lean and tough to fatty and tender.  It is not a simple thing, and there are no hard, fast rules that "grassfed beef is always lean."  Talk to experienced cattle ranchers and you'll learn a whole lot about meat.

Satya

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2009, 04:01:09 am »
I just heard from a local rancher that the Hereford breed of cattle develops intramuscular fat naturally, and thus, can have marbling even when pastured. 

Also important to consider in the grain-fed, feedlot beef is the fact that they are given hormones and antibiotics to increase growth.  They will be bigger than the same cow raised on grass.  And after 2 years, grassfed cows will gain quite a bit of weight.  Unfortunately, most are slaughtered before age 2.

Offline wodgina

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Re: The Truth About Ketons & Ketosis
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2009, 12:25:34 pm »
First of all, I'm highly sceptical of the notion that our ancestors never ate carbs. I mean they were opportunists, not interested in a "zero-carb" diet. It makes sense that they went in primarily for nutrient-denser animal foods, as herbivores and omnivores have to spend a huge amount of time on eating/searching for food if eating mostly plants. Also, I get extremely sceptical of the whole "rabbit-starvation" concept. I get the impression that lower levels of animal-fat are needed than what is recommended on zero-carb forums, in order to avoid rabbit-starvation.

Most cooked zero carbers believe eskimoes ate steak...medium rare... :D

Most zero carbers took up the diet for weightloss and probably came from a situation where they were over eating anyway.

I'm zero carb at the moment and I tend to over eat,  I'm not over weight but I'm guessing I've lost about 2 kgs in two weeks as my work pants are falling off of me. I need to buy a new set.  Actually the boss can buy me a new set...
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