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Offline Iguana

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Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« on: December 18, 2013, 06:03:04 am »
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Doctors urge patients to 'stop wasting money' on vitamins

By Karen Kaplan

December 17, 2013, 1:12 p.m.

Looking for ways to save money in 2014? Doctors have a tip: Stop buying vitamins.

Time after time, studies have shown that vitamin and mineral supplements don’t prevent disease or death. And yet consumers keep buying them, lament the authors of an editorial published in Tuesday’s edition of the Annals of Internal Medicine.

A 2011 report from the National Center for Health Statistics estimated that 53% of American adults used some type of supplement in the years 2003 to 2006, with multivitamin/multimineral formulations being the most popular. Those pills weren’t cheap – U.S. consumers spent $28 billion on them in 2010 alone, the editorial says.

Three new studies published in the Annals of Internal Medicine add yet more data to the mountain of evidence that most people get all the vitamins and minerals they need from food:

A meta-analysis conducted for the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force found “no consistent evidence that the included supplements affected CVD (cardiovascular disease), cancer, or all-cause mortality in healthy individuals without known nutritional deficiencies. Other systematic reviews have arrived at this same conclusion.” The analysis was based on the results of 27 studies involving more than 450,000 people.

A study involving nearly 6,000 male doctors age 65 and older found that cognitive function and verbal memory were no better in the men who took a daily multivitamin than in men who took a placebo. The doctors were tracked for 12 years.

Finally, a clinical trial testing whether a multivitamin could help prevent serious heart problems – including death – in patients who already had one heart attack concluded that the supplements didn’t help.

These results were right in line with other studies that have found “no clear benefit” from taking multivitamins, antioxidants, folic acid and B vitamins, the editorial says.

And those are the good outcomes. Trials of beta-carotene, vitamin E and high doses of vitamin A linked those supplements with an increased risk of premature death.

As far as the five editorial writers are concerned, the jury is still out on only one supplement – vitamin D. Studies to assess whether extra vitamin D could prevent falls in older people have had mixed results. As researchers continue to sort this out, consumers should be aware that there’s no “solid evidence” that this vitamin will be helpful to most people.

“The message is simple: Most supplements do not prevent chronic disease or death, their use is not justified, and they should be avoided,” the five physicians write.

And just in case that message is not simple enough, the headline spells things out even more clearly – “Enough is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements.”

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamin-supplements-waste-of-money-20131217,0,3582353.story#ixzz2nluqHgGs

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 08:59:43 am »
I'm not advocating here for or against. I personally think everyone needs to make decisions for themselves on what they choose to do with their bodies. But there are a number of things wrong with that article.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-vitamin-supplements-waste-of-money-20131217,0,3582353.story#axzz2nlsW1Jhm

"A study involving nearly 6,000 male doctors age 65 and older found that cognitive function and verbal memory were no better in the men who took a daily multivitamin than in men who took a placebo. The doctors were tracked for 12 years."

Generally speaking, a multivitamin doesn't do anything for cognitive function. That sort of generalized supplementing doesn't do much good except in the case of SAD'ers who can very often not get sufficient quantities of nutrients from the processed, low nutrient foods they consume. So to say someone shouldn't take supplements because taking a multivitamin didn't increase cognitive capacity for people of an older age group is far fetched. Not just that but most multivitamins are of very poor quality.

To give an example, GNC, a leading manufacturer/distributor of vitamin supplements and health products, makes multivitamins that people (like myself) who are experienced with supplements will see aren't the best formulations. A lot of consumers purchase supplements like these without doing their homework.

http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4033434 - under supplement facts you can see what vitamins are in it.

1) It contains folic acid, which studies are showing the body isn't able to use very well. The body has to go through several conversions before it's useable for anything. A lot of people carry genetic mutations that make it especially difficult for them to make the conversions into the active form. The best forms of folate are methylfolate, and folinic acid. New studies are actually showing folic acid is bad.

2) It contains the cyanocobalamin form of B12. The active forms are methylcobalamin and 5-adenosylcobalamin. Again, the body has a hard time converting cyanocobalamin into the active forms.

3) It has magnesium oxide. That's a very poor form of magnesium

And really, the GNC multivitamin is one of the better ones. There are cheaper ones that are even worse. Those products are the ones to avoid.

However multivitamins like this (the one I use) - http://www.giprohealth.com/scdcomplete.aspx - have all the active forms of all the vitamins.

Getting back to the article.

"Finally, a clinical trial testing whether a multivitamin could help prevent serious heart problems – including death – in patients who already had one heart attack concluded that the supplements didn’t help."

Again, saying a multivitamin is going to "prevent serious heart problems - including death - in patients who already had one heart attack" is expecting a lot from a multivitamin.

"These results were right in line with other studies that have found “no clear benefit” from taking multivitamins, antioxidants, folic acid and B vitamins, the editorial says."

Figures, odds are the multivitamins , folic acid, and b complex vitamins all contained the inactive forms of the vitamins which can be bad.

In short, supplements used appropriately can help all sorts of things. The article's main take away was that you shouldn't use supplements because there's no proof taking multivitamins prevents decline in cognitive capacity or serious heart problems in people who have already had heart attacks. But it's far fetched to expect such things from taking multivitamins (especially the formulations most use without researching the right one to take).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 09:06:15 am by DaBoss88 »
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2013, 10:14:29 am »
When P5P stops working for Phil, and vitamin D stops working for me, then maybe you'll have a point, Iguana.  Until then, I'm going to stick with what's working. Certainly not all supplements are for all people.  However....

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2013, 12:54:17 pm »
cherimoya kid, how do you tell  Vit. D is working for you?

Vit. D is the only supplement I am taking since I am not a sun person.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 03:00:44 pm »
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When P5P stops working for Phil, and vitamin D stops working for me, then maybe you'll have a point, Iguana.
CK, It's not specifically my point: I quoted an article of the LA Times. My point, in any case, is that supplements are not paleo. Since they are chemically pure synthetic substances, there's no way to properly dose them according to one's current needs. They can even be noxious at low doses and they are likely to disturb the nutritional equilibrium. 

Da Boss, I wouldn't comment on this before having read the scientific studies the journalist is talking about without having  a good knowledge and understanding of the subject.

Joy, I second your question. Grain and dairy worked well for me during 23 years and coffee works fine for coffee drinkers: once again you can't tell about long term results on the base of short term results.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 03:10:46 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2013, 03:56:58 pm »
When P5P stops working for Phil, and vitamin D stops working for me, then maybe you'll have a point, Iguana.  Until then, I'm going to stick with what's working. Certainly not all supplements are for all people.  However....

And when niacin and my orthomolecular routine stop working for me.

Da Boss, I wouldn't comment on this before having read the scientific studies the journalist is talking about without having  a good knowledge and understanding of the subject.

The authors summarized the studies/articles they were referencing. They essentially said, "multivitamins didn't prevent cognitive decline in doctors over 60 years old, and multivitamins don't prevent death in people who have had heart attacks"

Here's the article titled "Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements," found @ http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789253

Here's what the study #1 had to say

Oral High-Dose Multivitamins and Minerals After Myocardial Infarction - http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789248

"Background: Whether high-dose multivitamins are effective for secondary prevention of atherosclerotic disease is unknown."

"Objective: To assess whether oral multivitamins reduce cardiovascular events and are safe."

So the purpose of that study was to find if a high dose multivitamin was beneficial for preventing a second heart attack.

Their own study claimed that they found no adverse effects from including the vitamins.

"Conclusion: High-dose oral multivitamins and multiminerals did not statistically significantly reduce cardiovascular events in patients after MI who received standard medications. However, this conclusion is tempered by the nonadherence rate."

They also say their own study may not have been that thorough from the high volume of people who gave up on the study.

"Conclusion: High-dose oral multivitamins and multiminerals did not statistically significantly reduce cardiovascular events in patients after MI who received standard medications. However, this conclusion is tempered by the nonadherence rate."

Study #2 checked how effective a multivitamin was in reducing cognitive function in people over 65, over 65 is generally where cognitive function starts to decline (sometimes sooner).

Long-Term Multivitamin Supplementation and Cognitive Function in Men - http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1789250

"Objective: To evaluate whether long-term multivitamin supplementation affects cognitive health in later life."

"Patients: 5947 male physicians aged 65 years or older."

"Conclusion: In male physicians aged 65 years or older, long-term use of a daily multivitamin did not provide cognitive benefits."

So this study was to show that cognitive function didn't improve in people over 65 by taking a multivitamin.

Study # 3 - Vitamin and Mineral Supplements in the Primary Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease and Cancer: An Updated Systematic Evidence Review for the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force - http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1767855

"Purpose: To systematically review evidence for the benefit and harms of vitamin and mineral supplements in community-dwelling, nutrient-sufficient adults for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD) and cancer."

How the study was conducted -

"Data Synthesis: Two large trials (n = 27 658) reported lower cancer incidence in men taking a multivitamin for more than 10 years (pooled unadjusted relative risk, 0.93 [95% CI, 0.87 to 0.99]). The study that included women showed no effect in that group. High-quality studies (k = 24; n = 324 653) of single and paired nutrients (such as vitamins A, C, or D; folic acid; selenium; or calcium) were scant and heterogeneous and showed no clear evidence of benefit or harm. Neither vitamin E nor ?-carotene prevented CVD or cancer, and ?-carotene increased lung cancer risk in smokers."

"Conclusion: Limited evidence supports any benefit from vitamin and mineral supplementation for the prevention of cancer or CVD. Two trials found a small, borderline-significant benefit from multivitamin supplements on cancer in men only and no effect on CVD."

Again, these doctors are basing their findings that people shouldn't use vitamin/mineral supplements based on

1) a multivitamin not preventing cancer (study #3)

2) a multivitamin not preventing second heart attacks and death in people who have already had heart attacks

3) a multivitamin not preventing cognitive decline in people over 65

Again, expecting a multivitamin to 1) prevent cancer, 2) prevent heart attacks in people who have already had heart attacks, or 3) reduce cognitive decline in people over 65 is absurd. Therefore the proof that all supplements are ineffective for all reasons is not there. All they've proved is that a multivitamin can't prevent cancer, fix heart problems post-heart attack, or improve cognitive function in old people.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

Med free since 03/21/2014

Offline Iguana

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 04:49:50 pm »
The article mentions 27 studies. What about the other 24 ?

Quote
And those are the good outcomes. Trials of beta-carotene, vitamin E and high doses of vitamin A linked those supplements with an increased risk of premature death

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Inger

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 05:05:46 pm »
I would not say supplements are always bad. But I would be very careful.......

Even vitamin D is meant to be cyclic - our body has its own cycles and things are not always the same, vit D status should vary according to the season... as also vitamin A.. and maybe many other. We know way too little at this point in science. That is why I think to get it the natural way is way way better. And the other way... is always some risk.....

I do try some supps out here and there but it is pretty half hearted as I deep in my core know only the real thing is optimal.

I do think when someone is very messed up and have not possibilities to do the real thing (back to nature) they could be of help.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 07:30:18 pm »
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We know way too little at this point in science. That is why I think to get it the natural way is way way better. And the other way... is always some risk.....

Exactly! Why would we need synthetic supplements while on a RPD? It makes no sense.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 10:32:02 pm »
In my very ill pre-rawpaleodiet days I would buy tons of supplements, costing about 300 pounds sterling a month. They were always a waste of time, other than homeopathic remedies which helped temporarily get rid of some symptoms but never actually got rid of the overall health-problems.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline papangue

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2013, 02:56:59 am »
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Exactly! Why would we need synthetic supplements while on a RPD? It makes no sense.

Daboss  needed supplement because  he relapsed when he stoped taking niacin even  in a raw paleo diet

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2013, 03:46:05 am »
The article mentions 27 studies. What about the other 24 ?

Feel free to post links to those studies, and I'll go through them and show what's wrong with each of them. However on the website they only show links to three studies, and the entire article isn't accessible unless you subscribe. Still, I'm willing to bet that all those studies were done in a similar fashion to the three I mentioned.

Giving multivitamins to people with cancer and seeing the cancer doesn't go away. Or giving someone Vitamin E by itself and nothing happening. Or giving isolated Vitamin A and seeing it had a mildly negative effect. That's the kind of science that goes in the mainstream to show that all sorts of things are a waste of money.

Like studies showing organic is no better than non organic.  - http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2012/september/organic.html

And studies showing free range eggs are the same to conventional eggs - http://www.aeb.org/food-manufacturers/all-about-egg-products/facts-about-egg-production

"The nutrient content of eggs from the same breed of hen fed the same diet is not affected by whether hens are raised free-range or in floor or  conventional operations. It is solely determined by the feed."

I wouldn't expect studies the way they're conducting them to prove anything. Taking isolated supplements without a reason wouldn't do much for illnesses. Ie. giving someone vitamin a won't prevent a heart attack. Giving someone B complex won't improve their cognitive function at 80 years old.

Feel free to post the studies, I'm more than happy to take a look at them.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 03:51:25 am by DaBoss88 »
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

Med free since 03/21/2014

Offline Iguana

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 05:16:24 am »
Our animal and hominid ancestors never ate supplements but were nevertheless more healthy than us, civilized people overloaded with synthetic vitamins, supplements and other products of the pharmaceutical / chemical  industry. Cooking destroy some vitamins, right? Then by eating a suitably varied raw diet, we get all the vitamins we need. A need of supplements means there’s something missing or wrong in our diet. Just type “natural vs synthetic vitamins” on Google and you’ll find plenty of similar explanations as the excerpts below, from the first website listed by Google - which seems to be from a vegan website, but it doesn’t matter on this point.
Quote
Almost all multivitamins are from synthetics. The same goes for fortified foods. There’s a good reason for this. Synthetic vitamins are cheaper to make and usually more stable. This means they can last on shelves for months or years, be added to foods in high doses, and create dense tablets that won’t be too big to take along with some fillers and binders. These vitamins are allowed to call themselves “natural” even when they are synthetic because they are considered virtually identical to the ones found in food.

The way these compounds are made is not remotely similar to the metabolic processes that plants and animals use. The finished product is also usually a compound not found in nature in any such form. These synthetic vitamins, according to a multitude of studies, are not as bioavailable, absorbable, or usable. These “virtually identical” vitamins are not what we find in natural foods. They are not recognizable to the body, are hard on the kidneys, and can be treated as toxins.


Vitamins should come from food sources as much as possible. If you want a multivitamin, reach for ones that use whole food sources like holy basil, guava, and other herbs, fruits, and vegetables. Synthetic vitamins are isolated or simulated nutrients that do not take into account all the countless phytonutrients that come along with them. Nature is not a select few things. We are only beginning to understand how many of the lesser known compounds in plants react with one another as we eat them, but we do know humanity has been eating whole foods for a very long time. We have evolved to recognize the whole, not individual chemicals that have been created to approximate an essential vitamin.

Avoid supplements that use words ending in -ide, acid, or that use the “dl” before the name.

Minerals are the same. They are not considered organic materials as they come initially from the earth, but plants incorporate them into their systems and combine them with organic compounds. This is how our bodies know them and incorporate them as well. Minerals are combined with proteins to form enzymes or to aid in the movement of oxygen. Get minerals from plant sources as much as possible too. Your body is begging you for the vitamins and minerals it knows.
- See more at: http://www.sunwarrior.com/news/natural-vs-synthetic-vitamins/#sthash.PjDxpkZD.dpuf
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 08:21:01 am »
You've just switched the topic from the 24 studies that went unaddressed to something else.

I'd like to point out that the website you linked - http://www.sunwarrior.com/news/natural-vs-synthetic-vitamins/#sthash.PjDxpkZD.dpuf - contains zero references when making claims like "These synthetic vitamins, according to a multitude of studies, are not as bioavailable, absorbable, or usable. These “virtually identical” vitamins are not what we find in natural foods. They are not recognizable to the body, are hard on the kidneys, and can be treated as toxins." Same applies to most websites that make claims about "natural vs synthetic vitamins." I'd like to see the multitude of studies they're referencing.

Again, I don't advocate for or against. I think people need to make decisions for themselves on how they choose to take care of their bodies.

The science saying to avoid supplements is mediocre at best. Most studies are like the 3 I discussed in my other post. There's very little to no evidence showing all vitamins/mineral supplements are bad. There are differences between certain types of vitamins/minerals and what's found in food. For example folic acid is only found in supplements/fortified foods and not at all in food. Still there are folate supplements available that contain the active forms. There are other examples, but all supplements can't be categorized together because of these few exceptions.

It's interesting that for some on this forum, when they find studies (or any info for that matter) that support their views, they immediately use it to support their view. Without looking at it objectively to see if the studies are valid, conducted in a manner that would support their conclusions, or if the authors are just making it up.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 08:52:15 am by DaBoss88 »
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

Med free since 03/21/2014

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 10:05:07 am »
quote from Joy2012
Quote
cherimoya kid, how do you tell  Vit. D is working for you?

It controls my tooth plaque, dermatitis/dandruff, tooth sensitivity, insomnia, and various other annoying little problems. When I stop taking it, those problems come back.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2013, 01:41:09 am »
CK, wouldn't it mean that you miss natural vitamin D? Don't you go enough in the sun?

Quote from: Da Boss
The science saying to avoid supplements is mediocre at best. Most studies are like the 3 I discussed in my other post. There's very little to no evidence showing all vitamins/mineral supplements are bad.

We don't need such evidence: on the contrary, it belongs to the pharmaceutical industry to prove that their products are totally safe because these substances had never been in the environment in such a form until they started to make them.

It's the same for all synthetic chemicals, be they pesticides, medicine, food additive, etc.

It's also the case of cooked foods: we don't have to prove that cooked food are noxious. It's the duty of the scientists pretending that cooked foods are safe to prove it, something which has never been done.  ;)

All this springs from the elementary precautionary principle.

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2013, 02:08:22 am »
We don't need such evidence: on the contrary, it belongs to the pharmaceutical industry to prove that their products are totally safe because these substances had never been in the environment in such a form until they started to make them.

It's the same for all synthetic chemicals, be they pesticides, medicine, food additive, etc.

It's also the case of cooked foods: we don't have to prove that cooked food are noxious. It's the duty of the scientists pretending that cooked foods are safe to prove it, something which has never been done.  ;)

All this springs from the elementary precautionary principle.

Feel free to group supplements with pharmaceutical drugs, pesticides, and cooked foods. I know your mind is made on whether or not supplements are useful.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

Med free since 03/21/2014

Offline papangue

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2013, 06:31:36 am »
Iguana if it makes no sense to take supplements on a rpd could you explain me why Daboss relapsed when he stopped niacin?  That's a very simple question but  it looks like you don't want to answer me.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2013, 07:13:56 am »
I don't know, Papangue.

There can be many reasons: improperly balanced diet,  some specific foodstuff(s) missing in the diet, habituation to the supplement, etc.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline van

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2013, 07:22:25 am »
I too have wondered if DaBoss could indeed get off supplements.  And maybe it comes from Wanting to believe that our instincts have the ability to seek out what we need.   Our mental thoughts about what we read including studies, what we think we're going to eat the next meal, and or course what we think constitutes an optimal diet plan all potentially fall outside of the circle of thoughts that we allow ourselves to be guided by.  Or another way of saying all this is; there's so much we don't know.  And, maybe knowing is not something frozen in time, it may simply evolve with every meal.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2013, 07:38:41 am »
Realistically speaking, no scientific evidence genuinely exists to show that supplements are anywhere near as good as the real thing.
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2013, 01:39:12 pm »
quote from Joy2012
It controls my tooth plaque, dermatitis/dandruff, tooth sensitivity, insomnia, and various other annoying little problems. When I stop taking it, those problems come back.

CK, thanks for reply.

Iguana and all others, I fully agree that the real thing (through diet and sun exposure) is better than supplement. However,  sun exposure causes wrinkles and ages skins; and acquiring enough Vit. D through diet alone  is mission impossible.

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2013, 01:51:14 pm »
I too have wondered if DaBoss could indeed get off supplements.  And maybe it comes from Wanting to believe that our instincts have the ability to seek out what we need.   Our mental thoughts about what we read including studies, what we think we're going to eat the next meal, and or course what we think constitutes an optimal diet plan all potentially fall outside of the circle of thoughts that we allow ourselves to be guided by.  Or another way of saying all this is; there's so much we don't know.  And, maybe knowing is not something frozen in time, it may simply evolve with every meal.

It's something a lot of members have implied, suggested, and encouraged doing. I have been there and the outcome wasn't pretty. I was low fat raw paleo when I initially discontinued my supplements and had the relapse. I was later high fat raw paleo, still without supplements, and not doing very well. It was when I later reintroduced the supplements that I really saw improvements. Supplements + RPD have lead to a greater outcome than just supplements alone with a cooked diet. A raw diet alone lead to a worse outcome than just supplements without much attention to diet. I'm not saying that's the norm, we're all different, but there's a reason Dr. Hoffer got great results treating schizophrenics with high dose niacin - because it works. Not because he had yet to discover the wonderful benefits RPD has in treating schizophrenia. RPD is not something that needs to replace my orthomolecular routine, but rather something that needs to be used with it. I've learned that from experience.

I understand a lot of people want to think diet is the cure all in every situation, but that's not the case. Even within this forum we can't reach a general consensus of what a good/optimal diet is. Some eat more plant foods, and only some animal foods. Some eat no salt, some eat a lot of salt. Some eat mainly animal foods. Some take supplements. Some think you should only eat what tastes good. Others go for what's in season. Some eat high fat, some eat less. Everyone argues for their point of view and what's currently working for them. I think it's best we all accept everyone can be doing something different, and still be getting good results. We're all different.

We don't need such evidence: on the contrary, it belongs to the pharmaceutical industry to prove that their products are totally safe because these substances had never been in the environment in such a form until they started to make them.

I'd just like to point out, you started out showing an article as strong evidence not to use supplements. After debunking those studies (the 3 I had access to). You then linked a website that provided zero references when comparing synthetic and natural vitamins, which also happened to be selling "raw" whole food vitamins. Now you're saying we don't need such evidence.

I'd also like to point out that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't manufacture vitamin supplements. In fact, pharmaceutical companies have zero interest in proving supplements efficacy or safety since they're such a competitive force in the market place.

Our animal and hominid ancestors never ate supplements but were nevertheless more healthy than us, civilized people overloaded with synthetic vitamins, supplements and other products of the pharmaceutical / chemical  industry.

We're not a whole lot like our animal and hominid ancestors, our environment is also nothing like it was in those times. Humans have likely degraded/devolved in all sorts of ways since those times. The environment today is not what it was then.

Links on the possibility of human devolution -

http://www.naturalnews.com/037942_humans_devolving_brain_function.html

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-the-human-race-evolvin

There is a lot of scientific evidence showing that humans are losing the ability to convert nutrients into the forms they need. One example is with MTHFR and having difficulty converting folate into methylfolate which has a number of implications. There are other examples to, like limited glutathione production, and improper neurotransmitter production.

I don't know, Papangue.

There can be many reasons: improperly balanced diet,  some specific foodstuff(s) missing in the diet, habituation to the supplement, etc.

I understand that a lot of people on this forum have very dogmatic views toward diet, and that for some they'll never accept that supplements could be helpful. Troll of The Dungeon (TOD) had a similar view, and that's ok.

Realistically speaking, no scientific evidence genuinely exists to show that supplements are anywhere near as good as the real thing.

There are actually quite a few studies showing that certain vitamins can be as good as the real thing, and that certain vitamins can provide real world benefits when applied properly.

Articles showing SOME vitamins to be absorbed just as well from supplements

Article comparing synthetic to natural vitamins - http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminC/vitCform.html

"Natural vs. synthetic ascorbic acid

Natural and synthetic L-ascorbic acid are chemically identical, and there are no known differences in their biological activity. The possibility that the bioavailability of L-ascorbic acid from natural sources might differ from that of synthetic ascorbic acid was investigated in at least two human studies, and no clinically significant differences were observed. A study of 12 males (6 smokers and 6 nonsmokers) found the bioavailability of synthetic ascorbic acid (powder administered in water) to be slightly superior to that of orange juice, based on blood levels of ascorbic acid, and not different based on ascorbic acid in leukocytes (white blood cells) (1). A study in 68 male nonsmokers found that ascorbic acid consumed in cooked broccoli, orange juice, orange slices, and as synthetic ascorbic acid tablets are equally bioavailable, as measured by plasma ascorbic acid levels (2, 3)."

Articles showing megadosing to have benefits

Article on niacin's ability to improve cholesterol profiles - http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/niacin/

"High cholesterol and cardiovascular disease

Pharmacologic doses of niacin, but not nicotinamide, have been known to reduce serum cholesterol since 1955 (54). Today, niacin is commonly prescribed with other lipid-lowering medications. However, one randomized, placebo-controlled, multicenter trial examined the effect of niacin acid therapy, alone, on outcomes of cardiovascular disease. Specifically, the Coronary Drug Project (CDP) followed over 8,000 men with a previous myocardial infarction (heart attack) for six years (55). Compared to the placebo group, patients who took 3 grams of niacin daily experienced an average 10% reduction in total blood cholesterol, a 26% decrease in triglycerides, a 27% reduction in recurrent nonfatal myocardial infarction, and a 26% reduction in cerebrovascular events (stroke and transient ischemic attacks). Although niacin therapy did not decrease total deaths or deaths from cardiovascular disease during the six-year study period, post-trial follow up nine years later revealed a 10% reduction in total deaths with niacin treatment. Four out of five major cardiovascular outcome trials found niacin in combination with other therapies to be of statistically significant benefit in men and women (56). Niacin therapy markedly increases HDL-cholesterol levels, decreases serum Lp(a) (lipoprotein-a) concentrations, and shifts small, dense LDL particles to large, buoyant LDL particles. All of these changes in the blood lipid profile are considered cardioprotective."

Japanese study using mega doses of Vitamin K2 to treat osteoporosis - http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminK/

"In Japan, intervention trials in hemodialysis patients and osteoporotic women using very high pharmacologic doses (45 mg/day) of menatetrenone (MK-4) have reported significant reductions in the rate of bone loss (33, 34). MK-4 is not found in significant amounts in the diet, but it can be synthesized in small amounts by humans from phylloquinone. A recent meta-analysis of seven Japanese randomized controlled trials associated menatetrenone-4 supplementation with increased BMD and reduced fracture incidence (35), but this meta-analysis did not include data from an unpublished study that reported no effect on fracture risk (36). Nevertheless, the meta-analysis reported that MK-4 supplementation lowered risk for vertebral fractures by 60%, hip fractures by 77%, and nonvertebral fractures by 81%; all associations were statistically significant. Six of the individual trials employed 45 mg of menatetrenone daily, while one trial used 15 mg of menatetrenone daily (35). The 45 mg/day dose of menatetrenone was also used in a more recent 3-year placebo-controlled intervention trial in 325 postmenopausal women. This study found that supplemental menatetrenone improved measures of bone strength compared to placebo (37). The doses used in most of the cited studies are about 500 times higher than the AI for vitamin K. Some experts are not sure whether the effects of such high doses of MK-4 represent a true vitamin K effect. "

Article confirming there are differences between SOME synthetic and natural vitamins - http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v08n03.shtml

The link shows that Vitamin C is the same, but there are some vitamins that have exceptions. Like magnesium and Vitamin E. There are other exceptions which I've mentioned, like folic acid/folate.

I'd like to point out that all of those links have the studies they base their information on referenced, and they ALL have studies done.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail.

Nocebo Effect - a detrimental effect on health produced by psychological or psychosomatic factors such as negative expectations of treatment or prognosis

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2013, 05:31:34 pm »
There is plenty of scientific evidence to show that processed supplements, such a synthetic vitamins, are nowhere near as good as the natural equivalent found in food. The ridiculous claim re vitamin C, that since they are chemically the same they must act the same on the human body, is easily disproved when one considers that natural vitamin C is bound up with coenzymes and other factors which make it quite different.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11090291

This article  points out many of the flaws in synthetic vitamins:-
http://freepdfhosting.com/c0ed925b25.pdf

http://www.naturalnews.com/040157_synthetic_vitamins_supplements_whole_food.html
"What is the point of growing up If you can't be childish sometimes..." - Tom Baker as Dr Who.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Stop taking synthetic vitamins and supplements!
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2013, 07:09:06 pm »
Thanks, Tyler.

I think there's a strong danger of overdose with synthetic vitamins (amongst other problems). That’s certainly because they are not intertwined with other substances (you mention coenzymes) to form the extremely complex organic structures embedded in a natural food. You can't eat unlimited amounts of a particular food, especially when unprocessed and unmixed, but you can easily ingest uncontrolled amounts of synthetic or pure substances such as vitamins and various supplements. 

Even small doses regularly ingested may disturb the alimentary balance.

That said, supplements may be useful to some extend in case of deficiencies of the natural substance.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

 

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