Author Topic: Dangers of thawing and refreezing  (Read 62785 times)

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Offline rafonly

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2009, 12:30:30 pm »

"Now on this forum the dangers of micro-organisms are generally downplayed.  Still, I would like to eat my meat with as little proliferation of micro-organisms as possible.  I am not yet convinced by the benefits of "high meat"."

for clarity:
technically speaking, not only all viruses & bacteria but also many protoctists & many fungi (such as mold & yeast, not mushrooms) are the subject of micro-biology due to their being micro-organisms

on this planet, life begins w/ the cell -- bacteria being the simplest & original, primordial cell -- not w/ atoms or molecules; viruses are not really living organisms in & of themselves since they only exist thanks to the bacteria they ride on

from my own life experience & in my current understanding, the really anti-life microorganisms for a human being, for all homo sapiens in fact, are not bacteria but fungi
please excuse me all lovers of high meat, cheese, mushrooms, wine, bread, kombucha, etc. etc.
see you guys in the next friends of bacteria club party


"time & gradient precede existence", me

Offline rafonly

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2009, 12:33:27 pm »

re. freezing, its main drawback, as i see it, is the destruction of the long-chain pufa's (aa, dha, etc.), which sit precisely in all animal cell membranes of lean muscles, adipose tissues, connective tissues, nerves, etc.

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Offline rafonly

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2009, 12:38:07 pm »

re. grain-fed ruminants,
their natural digestive system & whole body are not meant for the consumption of cereals or legumes (or chicken feathers, chewing gum, etc.)... while standing still on wet manure or cement belching away anti-environmental gases

a live fungi factory, indeed the anti-life program in its most insidious expression

"time & gradient precede existence", me

Offline RawZi

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2009, 04:54:56 pm »
    A lot of people who ignorantly either benefit from the factory farm and others that eat from it forget the reverence each and every life can have a deserves.  Yeah, I wouldn't freeze grainfed.  I wish people would stop condemning animals to eat grain.  I mean, in an emergency grain might do, but people deserve to know the truth.


I certainly believe in bacteria and viruses and know that they are the cause of some deadly diseases.  What I've come to understand is that often it is the modern processing (canning, the feeding of grain to grass eaters, etc) that create the environment for the nasties to thrive and multiply.  The every day bacteria that cause the normal decay and breakdown of dead tissue either has little effect on our health, or more often than not, are beneficial.

I was tickled when I saw AV on television on some Doctor's show.  He was championing eating meat, eggs, and other foods raw.  The doctors on the show reeled in horror and cautioned the audience about the evils of salmonella and other nasty bugs, and that anyone following AV's example could be risking their lives.  What the doctors failed to mention was that the most recent outbreak of salmonella was in peanut butter, the one before that was spinach, the one before that was strawberries.  The only E-Coli outbreaks have come from grain fed animals, most of whom where given massive doses of antibiotics in effort to control an artificially created pathogen from our modern feed lot processing.

I think I'll stick with my rotting and decaying raw grass-fed meat thank you very much.....

"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline prehistorik

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2009, 10:27:02 pm »
What about fats?  Don't fats oxidize quickly when exposed to air, and wouldn't that mean that it is healthier to eat (fatty) meat as quickly as possible, and not keep the for long periods in the fridge?
 
Lex's mentioning of sour smell also reminds me of another thing: the fact that humans have a nose. Though less sensitive than that of a dog, we use it among other things to prevent us from eating rancid food (the instinct of disgust).

Quote
"Exposure to air, storage and heating can cause oxidation of lipid and give rise to ‘stale’, ‘sulphur-rubbery’ and ‘rancid’ off-flavor development including the so-called ‘warmed-over flavor’ (see review by Byrne & Bredel, 2002). The autoxidation of lipid is the major source of warmed-over-flavor, although reactions involving proteins and heterocyclic compounds may be implicated in the loss of desirable meaty characteristics.
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0309174008001460

I noticed something while eating a tender juicy steak the other day.  That sometimes, just sometimes, if you chew slowly and thoughtfully enough, you can almost taste the cow's soul.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2009, 11:39:47 pm »
Here's what I do. I eat mostly meat and fat, occasionally organs. I keep them in the freezer. Every day I take out a couple packages of meat and let it thaw outside, and if it's time to go to bed I either leave it out of the fridge if it's still very frozen, or put it in the fridge if it's close to being thawed. I have a lot of nice glass containers with sealing plastic lids that I keep my food in. I am almost always through the amount of meat I put in the fridge in two days, same with the fat. Organs I try to eat also with a couple of days as I've noticed a couple of times their flavor gets stronger quickly (in a bad way).

The brand I use is called GlassLock.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2009, 01:46:13 am »
Thanks for the info on Glass Lock containers Kyle.  I was unaware of them.  I have just been using the cheap plastic "Glad" storage containers but would prefer glass as they are a bit more durable.  Are the plastic lids pretty robust or do you think they are a serious weak point.

Lex

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2009, 02:20:16 am »
They work very well. I have only had one problem with the lids, my one rectangular larger container, I would guess about 6 inches by 4 inches and 3 or so inches deep, the part of the lid where the plastic clasps down on the longer sides started to break. It still works, but I'm thinking if I keep locking and unlocking it the break in it will spread and eventually tear off that whole locking side. So when I use that one I just lock the two smaller sides and I think it's still a good lock. If I wanted a better seal I would use the broken one, I just try to keep from bending it back and forth as much as possible.

I have two rectangular ones the size smaller than that one, then two the next size and two the size after that, that size being a very small rectangle that fits about one meal for my cat of cut up meat. Then I have two square ones about 4 or 5 inches long at a side, and then two big circular ones about the size of a pie that hold enough meat for my cat and I for somewhere between a day and two days.

Offline Dan

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2009, 03:21:13 pm »
   I wish people didn't have an obsession with grain and there wasn't any being fed to animals.  Animals would not choose it with plenty of other foodstuff not held away from them.

This is off topic...

Most animals, given free choice, will still go to grains.  When it's grass grains (you know, plain old seeds) I don't think it's an issue.  Heck, lots of birds eat almost nothing but seeds.  But wild animals get a huge amount of easy calories from grain on the ground, and some domesticated animals, if turned loose, will kill themselves if there is enough grain.

Just saying...

Offline RawZi

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2009, 05:13:56 pm »
    True, but grain isn't piled by itself many places in nature.  Most animals will not be eating all grain, but a few individual grains that are growing on the grass they chew.  We domesticate animals, and after a while they overeat just like many people who raise them or who are confined to walled areas much time. 

    Frozen meat is mushy anyway, and not in that nice highmeat way.

  But wild animals get a huge amount of easy calories from grain on the ground, and some domesticated animals, if turned loose, will kill themselves if there is enough grain.

"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Dan

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2009, 11:43:10 pm »
I agree with you, unless you are thinking that animals ignore unnatural grain.

     We domesticate animals, and after a while they overeat just like many people who raise them or who are confined to walled areas much time. 

I live in a farming area.  Corn, wheat, and sorghum (as I guess the rest of the world calls it) is scattered liberally over nearly-bare ground.  Where it spilled, there are bucket-sized piles of it out on the ground.  Domestication has nothing to do with it.  Space has nothing to do with it.  Almost everything will eat it. 



Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2009, 01:24:46 am »
What animals eat preferentially has nothing to do with what is good for them. Look at what people eat. If you deleted my ideas of what was healthy and put a McDonald's meal in front of me along side a hunk or raw meat, what do you think I would eat?

The thing with carbs is even more distorted because we're probably (and other animals as well) programmed to really like them and consume them with relish as they only come in season once a year. This is the way fruit and nuts/seeds/grains are, all of the high carb foods have a short period where they are in season. Grass for example goes to seed only one time a year, and at this time the animals can eat grain, and then it's over and all there is is the grass for the rest of the year. Same with people, fruit and nuts and other carb heavy collectibles only come around but rarely. Agriculture allows us to have it around all the time, for ourselves and for our animals. Why would our animals behave any differently than people have? People have taken the predisposition towards these seasonal foods and turned it into a year long addiction, and when they offer seasonal foods to animals clearly the end result is the same.

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2009, 03:02:10 am »
Look at what people eat. If you deleted my ideas of what was healthy and put a McDonald's meal in front of me along side a hunk or raw meat, what do you think I would eat?

I don't know what you would eat, but I would take the hunk a raw meat any day, regardless of health ideals.  I would not touch the McDonalds.  The thought of it is repulsive, not in any way enticing.  My kids, the youngest is 15 - have NEVER eaten fast food in their entire lives!  Am I a rotten mom, or did I save them from an addiction to food additives, gluten and all that shit?  It probably helps that we don't watch TV either, and are thus not bombarded with ever-present marketing techniques. 

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2009, 04:57:34 am »
I don't know what you would eat, but I would take the hunk a raw meat any day, regardless of health ideals.  I would not touch the McDonalds.  The thought of it is repulsive, not in any way enticing.  My kids, the youngest is 15 - have NEVER eaten fast food in their entire lives!  Am I a rotten mom, or did I save them from an addiction to food additives, gluten and all that shit?  It probably helps that we don't watch TV either, and are thus not bombarded with ever-present marketing techniques. 

You're an awesome mom.

It's all the other moms and dads who need to wake up and be more skeptical and teach their kids some core values. This is the only way this country can change.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2009, 05:09:22 am »
You're an awesome mom.

It's all the other moms and dads who need to wake up and be more skeptical and teach their kids some core values. This is the only way this country can change.

I have to admit I'm impressed. I know 1 or 2 relatives' families where the mother just can't be bothered to raise their children properly, so feeds them at McDonald's most of the time, because she hates cooking and doesn't want to spend decent cash for a quality restaurant. McDonald's is poison - I remember my first and last visit there as a student, and I puked up, because the so-called meat was the most tasteless chemically-adulterated food I'd ever experienced.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2009, 05:35:54 am »
Thanks guys.  We've eaten at restaurants, but always more up scale, family-oriented places. 

I had a puke up experience too.  I was about 19, driving down the state of California, back roads, no food.  Stopped at a fast food place and I got a salad.  A salad with alcoholic fermented carrots!  It was so bad as I swallowed them before realizing, "Gee, did I just get a shot of vodka?"  Then the gag reflexes set in.  That was it for me on that kind of fare, never did that again.  And when you consider the dodgy health practices of underpaid workers, I feel much safer making my own food, thank you very much.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2009, 05:52:13 am »
I wish I could say the same, but McDonald's and other junk food doesn't make me throw up or disgust me in any way. What keeps me away is the knowledge.

Offline RawZi

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2009, 10:41:50 am »
    Thanks. 

    Well, just the fact that there are cows, I think shows that man has been husbanding animals too long.  I don't think cows are natural.  The spilled piles are likely harvested and spilled by man.  I think it would be better if no man did that.  The animals would eat other ways, and we could take care of ourselves the way they do (more or less).  For example- where I'm visiting, they give the parrots artificially colored food pellets in their cages.  Pink, red, orange, yellow, green, etc ... the parrots I think must want or need flowers, fruit, vegetables and blood, colorful things, otherwise why do people artificially color parrot food?  We intervene too much with other living beings' lives.  OK, I know I have to kill one way or another, as I do need to eat meat to be healthy, but for the rest of the animals' lives I want to live and let live, not manipulate.

    Where I used to live there were domestic (cows etc) animals, and non domesticated animals too.  Sure animals eat whatever they can, but have you tried giving white bread to cows?  Have you tried giving fresh fruit off the trees that grow by them to those same cows?  Have you tried giving them white rice?  Did they eat it?  Lets start another thread about animals eating grain. 


I agree with you, unless you are thinking that animals ignore unnatural grain.

I live in a farming area.  Corn, wheat, and sorghum (as I guess the rest of the world calls it) is scattered liberally over nearly-bare ground.  Where it spilled, there are bucket-sized piles of it out on the ground.  Domestication has nothing to do with it.  Space has nothing to do with it.  Almost everything will eat it. 
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2009, 06:12:14 pm »
Thanks guys.  We've eaten at restaurants, but always more up scale, family-oriented places. 

I had a puke up experience too.  I was about 19, driving down the state of California, back roads, no food.  Stopped at a fast food place and I got a salad.  A salad with alcoholic fermented carrots!  It was so bad as I swallowed them before realizing, "Gee, did I just get a shot of vodka?"  Then the gag reflexes set in.  That was it for me on that kind of fare, never did that again.  And when you consider the dodgy health practices of underpaid workers, I feel much safer making my own food, thank you very much.

My cousin once worked as a waitress in  fast-food joints and restaurants and said that the experience made her never want to eat out ever again. She said that the staff would adulterate the foods of annoying customers with spit and other bodily fluids, and spill the foods on the floor, putting them back on the plate etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Dan

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2009, 05:29:23 pm »
I doubt this calls for a new topic
    Thanks. 

    Well, just the fact that there are cows, I think shows that man has been husbanding animals too long.  I don't think cows are natural.  The spilled piles are likely harvested and spilled by man.  I think it would be better if no man did that.  The animals would eat other ways, and we could take care of ourselves the way they do (more or less).  For example- where I'm visiting, they give the parrots artificially colored food pellets in their cages.  Pink, red, orange, yellow, green, etc ... the parrots I think must want or need flowers, fruit, vegetables and blood, colorful things, otherwise why do people artificially color parrot food?  We intervene too much with other living beings' lives.  OK, I know I have to kill one way or another, as I do need to eat meat to be healthy, but for the rest of the animals' lives I want to live and let live, not manipulate.

 

I agree completely, except that I would only count the most modern types of cattle, which are about the equivalent of very lean pigs, or modern poultry that only survives with medication or artificial breeding.  But put those pigs and cattle in the wild, and any that survive will be barely distinguishable from their wilder relatives.


        Where I used to live there were domestic (cows etc) animals, and non domesticated animals too.  Sure animals eat whatever they can, but have you tried giving white bread to cows?  Have you tried giving fresh fruit off the trees that grow by them to those same cows?  Have you tried giving them white rice?  Did they eat it?  Lets start another thread about animals eating grain. 

I have not tried giving bread or rice to cattle, but I do know that every animal we've raised except horses will eat those.  And since horses will eat corn, oats, etc., I'd bet they would, too.  I had a calf back when who was a sickly runt, and he grew and got healthy partly with all the rotten/half-eaten tomatoes our garden could make.  Horses, cattle, goats, dogs, and cats will eat about anything we've ever grown.  I don't know all the effects of grain on cattle, but I do know that except for oats, a horse will kill itself almost immediately if it can get into unlimited grains.

I agree that domesticated grains cause problems with almost everything.  My only point was that they are unavoidable unless you can either raise animals on nothing but what their wild ancestors could have eaten, or you hunt animals so far out in the middle of nowhere that it is only worthwile if you live there.

Offline Lukthree

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2012, 10:42:07 pm »
Hello all,
 I found this post via google, it is rather informative although I have no idea regarding the source of the information. 

"Fill a quart container full of water and freeze it solid.  What will happen? Water turning into ice expands.  It will rupture the container if there is no 'give' to it.

The same happens inside a cell in a piece of meat.  When frozen, the moisture inside the cell expands and will rupture the cell wall.  When unthawed, that moisture will escape through the rupture and becomes 'juice' (purge is the correct term) in the bottom of the COV or pan or on the counter, leaking out.  We all know to put towels under a product we're thawing out to capture this runoff.  But, this purge is drawing the natural flavor, moistness and juiciness of that piece of meat out of it.  This is what freezing does to meat.

Now, there are different levels of freezing.  There's hard freezing at below zero, freezing to complete hardness all the way through, maximum expansion.  This does the most damage.  A good example of this and what effect it has is turkeys.  These are killed and hard frozen sometimes years before going to market; they have an approximate 3 yr shelf life.  You've see blow-out sales prior to holidays for 29¢ / lb birds; they're at the end of their shelf life and have to be sold or thrown out.  Now are they totally shot?  No, not at all.  But they will be dry if cooked too long as what moisture is left after thawing in each cell will evaporate quickly.  These should be cooked to no more than 155-160° maximum, not the recommended 180° on the package (anything over 135° you've killed any bacteria unless you've unthawed improperly, like on the counter until the bird is room temp - if so, throw it out!).

Then there's 'hard chill' freezing.  This is just to 32° - point of freezing.  This technically freezes the outer cells but to the least level of damage and interal cells can be at slightly higher temp but still in 'suspended animation' where bacteria will not grow.  Chicken is a good example.  Chicken cut up and pre-packaged in a packing plant (like Tyson, Pilgrim, etc.) is passed through a nitrogen 'quick chill' cooling process that puts a 'hard chill' on the product for transporting.  Held in reefers at 32° it arrives across the country in a barely hard state but bacteria growth has been minimal to none.  You can press on it and it will give even though it is hard, so it has done almost no damage to the flesh.   Laying it out in the meatcase in the morning at 38° to 40°, a quick sheen of frost shows then the packages are new and fresh and ready to sell as if the 4 day trip to the distributor and 2 day hold time until redistributed had never happened, the shelf life stamped on the package well ahead of that day's date to insure freshness.  This key procedure is what is allowing central meat processing to take over the meatcutting industry and taking individual meatcutters out of every Walmart in the country.  It's applied to beef, pork and chicken and offals, etc. - hard chilling for transport and distribution storage until delivered to the end destination.

In the case of pork, almost all is frozen and held at under 5° for 20 days (or -4° for 3 days), this is 'certified' pork.  Freezing in this manner does one thing well.  It kills the trichinosis worm that is most likely to be in pork.  However, many species of trichnae are resistant to freezing and invade game animals so freezing will not kill those, only cooking will.  Here's a chart on cooking times and temps minimum from Wikipedia

:

Larvae may be inactivated by the heating, freezing (caution), or irradiation of raw meat. Freezing may only be effective for T. spiralis, since some other species, such as T. nativa, are freeze resistant and can survive long-term freezing. [11]

Unsafe and unreliable cooking of meat includes the use of microwave ovens, curing, drying, and smoking, as these methods are difficult to standardize and control. [11]

    Cooking meat products to an internal temperature of 165 °F (74 °C) for a minimum of 15 seconds.
    Cooking pork to a minimum uniform internal temperature per USDA Title 9 section 318.10 Table below. It is prudent to use a margin of error to allow for variation in internal temperature and error in the thermometer.

 
°F    °C    Minimum Time
120    49    21 hours
122    50.0    9.5 hours
124    51.1    4.5hours
126    52.2    2 hours
128    53.4    1 hours
130    54.5    30 minutes
132    55.6    15 minutes
134    56.7    6 minutes
136    57.8    3 minutes
138    58.9    2 minutes
140    60.0    1 minute
142    61.1    1 minute
144    62.2    Instant

    Freezing pork less than 6 inches thick for 20 days at 5 °F (?15 °C) or three days at ?4 °F (?20 °C) kills larval worms.
    Cooking wild game meat thoroughly. Freezing wild game meats, unlike freezing pork products, even for long periods of time, may not effectively kill all worms. This is because the species of trichinella that typically infects wild game is more resistant to freezing than the species that infects pigs.

 

So, freezing does denegrate the meat vs. fresh, but to what extent depends on the type of freezing, the length, to what depth, and it is beneficial in the case of pork or transportation."




It seems that the rupturing of cells on frozen meat would change the terrain and allow for proliferation of pathogenic bacteria in certain situations.  Have people had success making high-meat using lightly or heavily frozen meat?

I have a vacuum sealed grass fed chuck roast that no longer seems vacuum sealed, it has been stored in my shoddy freezer for a month but who knows how old it was when it was packaged i got it from some amish girl, is there any risk of botulism in vacuum sealed meat package if it is stored to warm for too long?

Offline Polyvore

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2012, 08:34:08 am »
Does anyone try to eat frozen meat before it fully thaws? I think this might be a good idea considering the inuit can eat partially frozen foods... Of course they eat fresh when they can, but they eat frozen too (or at least they used to before the western influence) thus their jaw adaptations. You don't need jaw adaptations to eat frozen food though, right, just wait til it is soft-frozen (soft enough to cut though) and cut it into pieces?

Offline ys

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2012, 01:21:04 pm »
I think nutrient leaks are greatly exaggerated. 

I hang my frozen chunk (2-3 portions) inside the refrigerator and as it thaws very little juice leaks.  If left in the room temperature it would leak significant amount of juice.  But in the refrigerator most of the water evaporates leaving all the nutrients inside (or on the meat surface).  If the cut is fatty sometimes there are no leaks at all.  In my opinion nutrient loss is negligible.

You can also eat it when it gets a little soft.  No leaks and no nutrients lost.  I ate this way for the last 3 years.  Now I prefer to get it dried inside the refrigerator for 1-3 days.

Offline Lukthree

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Re: Dangers of thawing and refreezing
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2012, 10:23:33 pm »
Polyvore,

I don't see a problem with eating partially thawed meat other than it tastes nowhere near as good as meat that has been dried even for an hour or so at room temp.  I cut some strips of grass fed chuck roast and hung them out on a line in the brisk cold wind here in PA and after 3 hrs they had a wonderful chewy almost caramelized texture on the outside and much enhanced flavor.

What i do love though is frozen tuna steak shaved into thin slices and dipped in sesame or another kind of oil.  incredibly refreshing.

 

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