Author Topic: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo  (Read 10408 times)

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Offline Gerson

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Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« on: December 02, 2014, 02:30:35 am »
Hi everyone,

So I have been doing raw paleo for about 3 months now and although I have noticed some health benefits when I began, I now still experience constipation with sometimes alternating diarrhea days, I am never passing properly formed stools. I think I can best explain myself through a post someone else posted here last year.
The post was by Löwerhenz, named 'Massive health problems, Goodbye raw paleo!' in the Hot topics section. Not all symtoms but a lot seem to be similar and I too tend to feel bloated and have GI tract problems on the diet, I also experience nausea. Here's roughly what I eat:

Raw grass fed beef (maybe twice a week)
Fresh wild salmon (2-3 times a week)
Some other seafood like clams and mussels (about once a week)
Sometimes a little butter when I have no other good fat source (eliminating butter causes no changes)
A little fruit and sometimes some raw honey ( about 20-25% carbs, zero carb was a disaster)
Raw eggs (these cause no problems, already tried eleminating, no change, eggs actually seem to help, can't eat only eggs though...)

Unlike Löwerhenz I am willing to discuss what I can change on my diet though. I am certainly open to suggestions as I'm trying to heal, for now I will try some cooked foods like Löwerhenz did since that worked for him and my problems are pretty similar. Oh unlike the other guy though my meats and fish are generally NEVER FROZEN unless 2 times when I ate some frozen grass fed beef but that was a month ago. So what could be the problem ...



Offline ys

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2014, 02:52:38 am »
what kind of fat do you eat and how much?

Offline Gerson

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2014, 02:59:35 am »
what kind of fat do you eat and how much?
Mostly the muscle fat from the beef,  fatty fish, avocado every now and then, egg yolks,  butter occasionally, can't get hold of organs or suet yet unfortunately. Fat is around 50-60% of calories.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 03:29:55 am by Gerson »

Offline van

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2014, 03:44:51 am »
more fat is usually a good idea, when you have the appetite for it.  You really need to source out back fat or bone marrow from grass fed, so that you can offer the body  good fat, and see how much it wants.
     I do well with eating low carb vegetables like kale, radishes, leek leaves, celery, sea weeds, sun chokes,  dandelion leaves.... I eat them separately as snacks throughout the day.
   I also do much better with small meals only when hungry (and stopping before I'm full to guarantee that I always digest what I put in my mouth. ) and thus,  more frequently, as the body has no way of storing excess protein, except after converting to sugar...  I find that to be unkind to my body.   
    Don't get into a rut of eating what you think it the 'best'.  For it will change often, and you'll find yourself always a step or ten behind with your mind in determining what is best for you. 
    My experience with honey, is that it will leave you wanting more sweet foods, and cause insulin spikes as even the taste signals the body to secrete insulin.  The same happens with artificial sweeteners that have no sugar in them. 
     Look to build up and feed often your gut bacteria.    One of the reasons I eat vegetables often is to feed Often the bacteria.  To only have fiber, resistant starch, etc. once a day means that for the other twenty or so hours, those bacteria are starving and don't have much of chance to multiply and stay as a healthy colony. 

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2014, 06:36:28 am »
try 3 to 4 different brands of probiotics. including high meat - make your own.
take a probiotic, overdose 5x to 10x per day for 3 days. 
Then switch to the next brand of probiotic, overdose 5x to 10x per day for 3 days.
Keep switching until you have taken the 4 brands.

When you have made your own high meat, try that too as aajonus vonderplanitz recommended.

let us know.
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Offline Gerson

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 09:17:18 pm »
Thanks for the advice guys,

van, as for the vegetables I think I will give that a try but I don't know whether I'll be able to digest raw vegetables very well ... but it may be better than the fruit. I will also ditch the honey for a while. Yes I also think there must be something wrong with gut bacteria and i'm starting to think the general low fiber/ resistant starch intake on this low carb RP diet may be stopping me from rebuilding good gut flora as it wasn't optimal to begin with. I find it odd though that the raw fish or meat is making me bloated as it is suppoed to be easy to digest ...

Quote
try 3 to 4 different brands of probiotics. including high meat - make your own.
take a probiotic, overdose 5x to 10x per day for 3 days. 
Then switch to the next brand of probiotic, overdose 5x to 10x per day for 3 days.
Keep switching until you have taken the 4 brands.

When you have made your own high meat, try that too as aajonus vonderplanitz recommended.

let us know. 
okay thanks,  I will try that, any specific best time to take the probiotics or can I just take them with some water or meal whenever I want ?

Offline jessica

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 10:28:25 pm »
You can always learn to identify wild greens to eat as well, dandelion, mallow and chickweed are pretty easy to find and especially delicious. Depending on where you live it might be less expensive to get greens, meats and fats directly from the farm.  I agree wih everyone, more meats and fats, different carb sources (no fruits no honey) add some seaweed, and is on probiotics/make high meat.  I have even done days where all I ate was a ton of greens and yogurt help repopulate my gut.  I would encourage you to try garden of life brand probiotic called primal defense, it comes in a powdered form and is good deal $$ wise.  I took a heavy dose of it as GS suggested to get rid of an amoeba I got from dirty water a few years ago and it healed me up and kept me ot of the hospital, it's amazing stuff.

Offline van

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2014, 01:26:47 am »
Thanks for the advice guys,

van, as for the vegetables I think I will give that a try but I don't know whether I'll be able to digest raw vegetables very well ... but it may be better than the fruit. I will also ditch the honey for a while. Yes I also think there must be something wrong with gut bacteria and i'm starting to think the general low fiber/ resistant starch intake on this low carb RP diet may be stopping me from rebuilding good gut flora as it wasn't optimal to begin with. I find it odd though that the raw fish or meat is making me bloated as it is suppoed to be easy to digest ...
 okay thanks,  I will try that, any specific best time to take the probiotics or can I just take them with some water or meal whenever I want ?

you don't need to eat a ton of veggies etc..  just nibble here and there.   I imagine quite well HG peoples did this throughout the day as the moved around..

   I also have a twin gear juicer.  I am quite sold on the practice of taking the screen out of the juicer so that the ground pulp simply drops down into a bowl.  I then simply chew it as I suck out the juice and eventually spit out most of the pulp.  I think this really keeps one from over doing juice, starts the carb digestive secretions in the mouth, and allows one to really taste and find out what plants you like.   Also there is virtually no oxidation as found in juicing.  The juicer is so easy to clean too.      Lately it is my first meal, along with sun chokes, dark green leek leaves, a radish and a mixture of psyllium and primal defense.  I use one capsule to one teaspoon of psyllium and 8 ounces of water.  I make the night before and drink on half of it.  the psyllium  binds and coats the probiotics and allows it to get into the gut without being attacked by the stomach acids.   I can't imagine that someday someone won't make a product like this.  It works so well.   I thank Paleo Phil for reinvigorating my interest in gut flora.     The veggies I've mentioned don't seem to feed the bacteria that like to eat sugar.  You can experience this in your mouth as compared to eating fruit.   My experience is that any aftertaste of sugar is an indication that ( for at least my bacterial populations ) i've just fed the wrong bacterias...   For example, try eating a leek leaf and then noticing what happens in the mouth as compared to eating some apple.

Offline Gerson

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2014, 03:10:45 am »
You can always learn to identify wild greens to eat as well, dandelion, mallow and chickweed are pretty easy to find and especially delicious. Depending on where you live it might be less expensive to get greens, meats and fats directly from the farm.  I agree wih everyone, more meats and fats, different carb sources (no fruits no honey) add some seaweed, and is on probiotics/make high meat.  I have even done days where all I ate was a ton of greens and yogurt help repopulate my gut.  I would encourage you to try garden of life brand probiotic called primal defense, it comes in a powdered form and is good deal $$ wise.  I took a heavy dose of it as GS suggested to get rid of an amoeba I got from dirty water a few years ago and it healed me up and kept me ot of the hospital, it's amazing stuff.
Yes dandelion leaves I should definately be able to find, I actually used to love them when i was little a boy mixed in raw eggs, will look for some tomorrow. I have only one more day of beef left and then all I have is some frozen beef .. Then I have to wait a month for a new batch, are there any other options for fat sources ?
I have looked for the primal defense brand and all I have found is the capsule form, the powder form is indeed cheaper but I have to let it get shipped and I have had some bad experiences with the 'arrives in 2 weeks' orders. So I think I'll have to go with the capsules, so expensive.. those probiotics. If you don't recommend fruit or honey and only greens, then what can I get for carbs, because I don't tend to do good on very low carb ?

Quote
My experience is that any aftertaste of sugar is an indication that ( for at least my bacterial populations ) i've just fed the wrong bacterias...   For example, try eating a leek leaf and then noticing what happens in the mouth as compared to eating some apple.
I ate some raw vegetables today and I have to say that I did feel better and have a better taste in the mouth afterwards compared to the fruit, I think I'm gonna ditch the fruit but I don't know what I can get for carbs otherwise ? The raw vegetables still constipate me though, hopefully the probiotics will help with that.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 03:21:52 am by Gerson »

Offline Iguana

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2014, 04:11:24 am »
I don’t like to give advices, but you know, there are disagreements between us… I would say, don’t worry, eat the fruits you like! If you find unheated honey from bees never fed sugar, eat it as long as you like it. You can also get carbs from sugar cane, sweet potatoes and other tubers such as yakon, chufas (tiger nuts), chestnuts, carob or whatever tastes good to you.  :)

If you have no meat at the moment (as is often the case for me), you can rely on fish, shellfish, various nuts and coconuts, avocados, safus and perhaps durians.   

I don’t know what are these probiotics talked about, I never had any of those.  ???

Most important, forget everything you think you know about this or that food supposed to be beneficial, don’t eat according to your intellect, don’t eat too much or too often and avoid heated food as the plague!  :D
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 04:27:38 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline jessica

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2014, 04:26:03 am »
Cooked pumpkin miight be a good source of carbs for you.  I find helps loosen stools, it's actually often used for dogs and part of a canine diet(coyotes and wolves..). Although they obviously didnt cook them in the wild but probably baked by weeks of sun and broken down by enzymes, you can also eat the seeds which are known to contain zinc and other substances that are said to fight parasites.  They are also pretty inexpensive as far as vegetables go.  They are one if the only veggies I can tolerate, in season at least.  I do bad with fruits and honeys as my pancreas isn't healed up all the way and I generally deal with blood sugar issues if I imbibe in those and have also dealt plenty with the feelings of gut disbiosis from most carbs.  It's pretty low on the carb scale, especially compared to some of the sweeter squash like butter ur, acorn or kabocha.  Chestnuts might also be good to try out, they are somewhat tannic tho, I think they need to be processed a bit.  They seem like hey might be constipation unless taken with enough fat. They are in season.  You might also like things like celery, which help stimulate hcl production and digestive enzymes.  It also contains a lot of liquid and natural sodium and other minerals.  Be sure you are drinking plenty of water, hot fatty broth with seaweed is a great way to get super hydrated and not deplete your electrolytes.  Try some mushrooms too, they are full of good minerals like chromium.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 04:31:18 am by jessica »

Offline Gerson

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2014, 11:00:01 pm »
Cooked pumpkin miight be a good source of carbs for you.  I find helps loosen stools, it's actually often used for dogs and part of a canine diet(coyotes and wolves..).
Ok thanks I will give pumpkin a try, constipation and bloating actually got pretty bad the last days, it's like my bowels just won't move .. Can't figure out why for now, doing some exercise every day and drinking plenty of water. Interesting fact of the pumpkin being in a canines diet. Hopefully the cooked pumpkin won't feed the wrong bacteria.

Quote
Most important, forget everything you think you know about this or that food supposed to be beneficial, don’t eat according to your intellect, don’t eat too much or too often and avoid heated food as the plague! 

Thanks for the input, you know I'd love that, being able to forget everything and just listening to my 'instinct'. But you know those foods you mention and the way of eating etc. that's exactly how I have been starting out eating (some meat and fish plenty of fresh fruit) on raw paleo and how I've ended up asking for help here, so it seems  it is not that simple.

Offline eveheart

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2014, 01:08:22 am »
... it seems  it is not that simple.

There are many sick people who are healed by simply removing all the junk from their diet, but that doesn't mean that a pure paleolithic diet can heal every illness. My strategy has been to Incorporate what my brain "knows" from science and my body (such as blood sugar control) and what my senses "know" from taste and smell. I found a medical doctor who endorses my results with RPD and helps me when I need medical diagnostics, such as lab tests, so that I don't have to guess about everything.

I especially avoid eating "in a rut" - having the same thing all the time - so I go local and with the seasons. I used to have constipation:  seaweed, bitter vegetables chewed for their juices, and magnesium supplement works for me. I have used cooked squash for constipation before, and I think it worked very well, especially since it doesn't cause diarrhea, like some constipation remedies do for me. I quit cooked squash because it elevated my blood sugar and switched to cooked cauliflower, cabbage, or broccoli for that extra fiber boost. I avoided purging treatments, such as Epsom salts, castor oil, and herbs, because I wanted a long-term solution, not just a clean out.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline Gerson

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2014, 02:30:43 am »
My strategy has been to Incorporate what my brain "knows" from science and my body (such as blood sugar control) and what my senses "know" from taste and smell.

 I used to have constipation:  seaweed, bitter vegetables chewed for their juices, and magnesium supplement works for me. I have used cooked squash for constipation before, and I think it worked very well, especially since it doesn't cause diarrhea, like some constipation remedies do for me.
I agree that a combination is best. I will try the cooked squash, did you add fat to the squash ?

Offline eveheart

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2014, 02:46:57 am »
I will try the cooked squash, did you add fat to the squash ?

I wasn't eating raw food at the time, and I just steamed and mashed the squash. The constipation was a result of another medical treatment, and my doctor had prescribed stool softener plus senna, but I ended up with a stool texture that didn't poop out very well plus cramps. I had also tried psyllium husks, but that caused anal itching for me. That's why experimentation is good - you get information that is customized to your body. It doesn't take too long for the gut to populate itself with the right kind of bacteria for the food you are eating, so you should find out what works in a relatively short amount of time.
"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline jessica

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2014, 05:11:11 am »
Cooked squash wih poultry fat, like chicken backs and skins has been what's helped me.  I don't know if it's the type of fat that makes the stool more greasy.  The seeds also are a good source of natural magnesium which is helpful to bring moisture to the stool. 

Offline Iguana

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2014, 05:14:19 am »
Yes, it’s not easy, especially if you start practicing alone without any training by anybody experienced to guide you. There are many potential pitfalls.

Constipation is something frequently happening at the beginning and we suspect it’s due to the body expelling a lot of “garbage” since it receives now much more “suitable materials”, thus creating a kind of “traffic jam” in the intestine. In Europe we can get cassia fistula (from Orkos), which not only helps in this regard, but also apparently facilitates the drainage of toxins.

Jessica is right in pointing out that animals such as coyotes in a desert sometimes find food “cooked” by the sun. They can also find foods grilled after a wildfire or by the lava of a volcanic eruption. It doesn’t mean that overheated food is fine for health. But this fact is probably the reason why animals, humans included, have at disposal the detoxination process we call illnesses, which are adapted to occasional small amounts of overheated foods but tend to dangerously flare when cooked foods continue to be regularly eaten while the cleansing process is underway.   
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2014, 12:34:55 pm »
Is everything you eat of paleo quality?

 Shellfish from polluted waters, and Salmon from unknown sources, eggs from junk fed chickens, butter of all kinds, even sub quality commercial grass-fed beef, could be an issue.

I recommend being absolutely sure about the quality of the foods you eat, whatever you decide to do.

Also, Raw Bone marrow and organ meats can help one transition into low carb raw paleo.
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2014, 04:26:48 pm »
Is everything you eat of paleo quality?

 Shellfish from polluted waters, and Salmon from unknown sources, eggs from junk fed chickens, butter of all kinds, even sub quality commercial grass-fed beef, could be an issue.

I recommend being absolutely sure about the quality of the foods you eat, whatever you decide to do.
eo.

Yes, absolutely. I concur.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Gerson

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2014, 04:40:35 pm »
Is everything you eat of paleo quality?

 Shellfish from polluted waters, and Salmon from unknown sources, eggs from junk fed chickens, butter of all kinds, even sub quality commercial grass-fed beef, could be an issue.

I recommend being absolutely sure about the quality of the foods you eat, whatever you decide to do.

Also, Raw Bone marrow and organ meats can help one transition into low carb raw paleo.
Yes I check the quality of all the raw foods I buy. I talk to the fishmonger, actually I even walk past the fishery 2 times a year as I live only 60 miles from the sea, the fish and shellfish are excellent quality. My uncle has chickens who are outside all the time where I can get good eggs and the grass-fed beef was also from one of  my uncles cows which never gets fed grain and sleeps in wooden barns, that'd do I guess. The butter is from Ireland, called Kerrygold, but I haven't had butter for a while now, to test if it does any harm I will reintroduce it later. I have been having a really hard time finding a source of bone marrow and organ meats. I live in Belguim and grass-fed animals are not at all common in my surroundings.

Quote
Constipation is something frequently happening at the beginning and we suspect it’s due to the body expelling a lot of “garbage” since it receives now much more “suitable materials”, thus creating a kind of “traffic jam” in the intestine. In Europe we can get cassia fistula (from Orkos), which not only helps in this regard, but also apparently facilitates the drainage of toxins. 
Yes I hear this often, however I don't think that ongoing constipation is normal. Also I feel drained and have no energy because of the constipation so I don't believe I can view the constipation as a 'detox' sign.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2014, 05:37:19 pm »
My uncle has chickens who are outside all the time where I can get good eggs and the grass-fed beef was also from one of  my uncles cows which never gets fed grain and sleeps in wooden barns, that'd do I guess. The butter is from Ireland, called Kerrygold, but I haven't had butter for a while now, to test if it does any harm I will reintroduce it later. I have been having a really hard time finding a source of bone marrow and organ meats. I live in Belguim and grass-fed animals are not at all common in my surroundings.
Are you sure your uncle never gives cooked leftovers to his chicken? What’s the point of taking the risk of experimenting with butter? Isn’t it pasteurized? It may not harm you short-run and perhaps not long-run as well, but no one knows and even if raw it’s not paleo anyway, so it’s wise to apply the precautionary principle.

Quote
Yes I hear this often, however I don't think that ongoing constipation is normal. Also I feel drained and have no energy because of the constipation so I don't believe I can view the constipation as a 'detox' sign.
Of course, it’s not normal and if the outlet is blocked, the evacuation of toxins laden matters doesn’t happen, so the “detox” is blocked as well. As you are in Belgium, order some cassia from Orkos! The recommended procedure is: suck 3 to 5 disks max at first, than you can double the intake each day until reaching the instinctive stop. Take it at least half an hour before a meal or not before 2 hours after a meal.

You may also try tamarind.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 05:44:04 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Gerson

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2014, 02:21:46 am »
So this constipation I have been having lately is more severe than normal and today I've had confirmation that something's off. I have passed clay/semi-liquid pale yellow stool that's floating today... So suddenly my fat digestion is malfunctioning, which has never been a problem ? Something's really off, like I might have catched some kind of virus or something dunno, but my bowels are not moving at all anymore and that's not normal either for me. I'm also more thirsty than normal and I'm constantly burping after I eat something now. The probiotics don't seem to change anything so there must be something else that's going on, does this sound familiar to anyone ?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 02:56:56 am by Gerson »

Offline van

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2014, 02:25:39 am »
the disks iguana mentioned work for the vast majority of people.  But you need to follow his instructions.   In the meantime, ionic magnesium, around 400 mg. a day should work also. 

Offline Alive

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2014, 03:15:35 am »
I found one or two tablespoons of psyllium husk with a glass or more off water to be excellent at relieving constipation, mixing two or three tablespoons of potato starch powder with it makes an excellent environment for healthy gut bacteria to flourish. These microbes makyume substances that improve your bowel motions.
Raw leaves and other vegetables will also feed healthy microbes which will improve your bowel functions.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Not healing, health problems on raw paleo
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2014, 07:54:43 am »
Coconut cream would be something to try for better regularity and overall health and wellness, especially on a low carb diet.

Coconut cream is difficult to come by in Kentucky so instead will personally eat around 1/4 pound of coconut butter per day.

The MCTs of coconut seem to help boost fat metabolism, and the low glycemic carbs and fiber are also beneficial.
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