Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Raw Paleo Diet Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Joy2012 on October 24, 2012, 11:27:56 am
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It seems many people on this forum do not eat much vegetables/greens. That goes against the popular diet recommendations which do have the support of much scientific research.
Does animal food have all the nutrients that are in vegetables/greens? What about chlorophyll?
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Chlorophyll is useful to plants re photosynthesis, not useful to animals. Animal foods provide all the nutrients a human needs. It has been suggested that plant foods can provide all the nutrients one needs provided that the veg is grown using manure and isn't washed thoroughly afterwards. Not sure if that's true, however.
The main reason why we avoid most raw vegetables is that many raw vegetables often don't taste too good. Generally speaking, the ones that don't taste too good are also the ones which are highest in levels of antinutrients. Few people care to eat raw broccoli or raw kale, for example. I still eat some raw veg( a little seaweed, radishes every so often, a bunch of carrots once a year, garlic bulbs once a year, that sort of thing).
A few RVAFers do consume raw veggie-juice but many RVAFers complain that, after a time of consuming large amounts of veggie juice, one can start getting nutritional deficiencies. The idea is that juicing not only makes the nutrients in veg more bioavailable but also the antinutrients in veg. At any rate, juiced veg is a really bad idea as sweeteners such as raw cream are added to disguise the foul taste of the juice, making one drink far more than one should.
The reason why studies favour veg consumption is quite simple:- animal foods when heated/cooked produce much higher amounts of heat-created toxins, such as advanced glycation end products etc., whereas cooking plant foods produces fewer such toxins.
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Chlorophyll is useful to plants re photosynthesis, not useful to animals. Animal foods provide all the nutrients a human needs.
The proponents of green juice often glorify chlorophyll. I read somewhere that once upon a time medical doctors used chlorophyll to treat serious illnsses but later on abandoned the practice because chlorophyll loses its potency after a few hours.
Anyway, if animal foods do provide all the nutrients a human needs, I am content. Thanks.
Few people care to eat raw broccoli or raw kale, for example.
I do not care about raw vegetables in general. But I like broccoli stems (without the rough peels).
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It seems many people on this forum do not eat much vegetables/greens. That goes against the popular diet recommendations which do have the support of much scientific research.
Does animal food have all the nutrients that are in vegetables/greens? What about chlorophyll?
Probably a bit of celery and some kamote leaves tops every week.
I need vegetables, just not as much as meat and not as much as fruit. There are greens that I juice and they give me and others a great lift if we've been without vegetables for too long.
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I eat broccoli stems too and (like most instinctos) some vegetables every evening, in general after the meat or eggs or shellfish/fish. Even if tomatoes, cucumbers and red peppers are botanically fruits, they digest well with vegetables and can be considered as such. Pink sweet potatoes are tasty, for example.
Meat, fish and eggs are not always easily available in nature. In our modern world they are generally hard to find in the quality we need and are often rather expensive. I wonder how some of us can lastingly eat almost no plant food while being satisfied, keep a correct nutritional balance and... don't spend all their money on food!
At least in Europe, you would have to be rich to feed exclusively on raw animal food. Even if I had an unlimited bank account, I would be unable to do it because I need fruits, vegetables and nuts as well to be satisfied and remain in good health.
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It seems many people on this forum do not eat much vegetables/greens. That goes against the popular diet recommendations which do have the support of much scientific research.
Does animal food have all the nutrients that are in vegetables/greens? What about chlorophyll?
Joy that is a great question. IMO, I believe it's true. All necessary nutrients start with algae or grasses. In this RAW MEAT Diet, all of our nutrients are supplied by pastured raised or wild game. Vegetables and fruits were eaten in limited quantities by our ancestors. Animal protein and fat was the main source of energy and vitality (it still is). I've been eating nothing but paster feed non frozen meat for over 5 months and i'm getting stronger and stronger by the DAY! I have no desires for sugar or fruits at all! The more fat I eat, the better! This Raw Foods Animal Diet is the best diet that's out there! If you don't eat RAW Animal Protein, you're missing out. This is Raw Paleo, not RAW Vegetarian. I don't understand people that land on this site and don't consume raw meats. I think that's WEIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Meat, fish and eggs are not always easily available in nature. In our modern world they are generally hard to find in the quality we need and are often rather expensive. I wonder how some of us can lastingly eat almost no plant food while being satisfied, keep a correct nutritional balance and... don't spend all their money on food!
At least in Europe, you would have to be rich to feed exclusively on raw animal food. Even if I had an unlimited bank account, I would be unable to do it because I need fruits, vegetables and nuts as well to be satisfied and remain in good health.
I heavily disagree. I've noticed that my appetite(and therefore food-consumption) goes right up when I eat lots of raw plant foods. My food-bill goes through the roof, too. Indeed, my raw vegan/fruitarian phases, prior to this diet, led to me spending far more money on food than ever before or after(no doubt, the hunger-pangs were partly the result of cravings for missing nutrients). Basically, eating raw animal fat meant that my appetite was sated more quickly so I spent a lot less.
Lex Rooker is a case in point. He buys raw grassfed ground meat meant for pet-consumption, and so pays a pittance. Of course, the US has far bigger economies of scale, so US prices for food are way below the equivalent in Europe. Even so, I kept on finding ways round:- for example, I bought raw wild hare carcasses for 13 pounds sterling, which were WAY cheaper than raw, grassfed meats(and far superior in nutrition). I also used to buy tons of raw organ-meats because no one else wanted them, so that they were ultra-cheap. At one stage, I got away with buying raw, grassfed ox liver for 2 pounds sterling a kilo for many years.
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You're lucky to find such organs and fat, so cheap . Isn't it because Anglo-Saxons never eat organs? Here, it's very difficult to find anything like that, except when we get a road killed badger or when a friend's hunt was successful. Otherwise, we have to order from Orkos where organs are in limited supply, seldom available and very expensive. Moreover, the wild animals we get sometimes have almost no fat: only pigs have a substantial amount of fat.
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Animal foods provide all the nutrients a human needs.
Tyler, on a plant-free diet, how important are organ meats in your view or from your experience?
It has been suggested that plant foods can provide all the nutrients one needs provided that the veg is grown using manure and isn't washed thoroughly afterwards. Not sure if that's true, however.
That's part of a veganoid Wunschkonzert.
I still eat some raw veg( a little seaweed, radishes every so often, a bunch of carrots once a year, garlic bulbs once a year, that sort of thing).
And how much fruit do you eat nowadays?
Löwenherz
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I eat broccoli stems too and (like most instinctos) some vegetables every evening, in general after the meat or eggs or shellfish/fish. Even if tomatoes, cucumbers and red peppers are botanically fruits, they digest well with vegetables and can be considered as such. Pink sweet potatoes are tasty, for example.
Meat, fish and eggs are not always easily available in nature. In our modern world they are generally hard to find in the quality we need and are often rather expensive. I wonder how some of us can lastingly eat almost no plant food while being satisfied, keep a correct nutritional balance and... don't spend all their money on food!
At least in Europe, you would have to be rich to feed exclusively on raw animal food. Even if I had an unlimited bank account, I would be unable to do it because I need fruits, vegetables and nuts as well to be satisfied and remain in good health.
I still cannot understand how human beings can view raw broccoli as food. ???
Iguana, have you ever tried a plant-free diet? Or do you just BELIEVE that you need fruits, vegetables and nuts?
When I visit national parks in Europe I always see tons of animal food but no plant-food except herbs and some berries once in a year.
Löwenherz
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You're lucky to find such organs and fat for cheap. Isn't it because Anglo-Saxons never eat organs? Here, it's very difficult to find anything like that, except when we get a road killed badger or when a friend's hunt was successful.
In some parts of France you find more wild boars than in any other European country. Alsace and Lorraine for example. Just contact more hunters. Orkos is extremely overpriced.
What was the name of the American near Toulouse who sells grass-fed Salers beef? Even the leanest bull has lots of fat. Usually it's thrown away...
Löwenherz
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I think some wild edibles here and there and lots of seaweeds are all one needs. And wild berries in season for sure, but these are only in fall here. No vegetables needed. Why? They are domesticated anyway. Why would we need them? We fared well hundred of thousand years without. Same with fruit. It is mostly very different from what it once was.
In seafoods and organs are all we need. I actually believe we could live on seafood and algae only. I have not tried it but I am sure it would be great when looking at their nutrient profile. I rarely eat vegetables and greens. Nettles and some other herbs here and there, wild berries, a carrot once in the while from the garden that's it. I feel great!
Seaweeds can be harvested for free if one lives near the coast. Like fishing too, and mussel collecting.. all for free. It really is the best place to live. Near the coast. One would not have to pay anything for food. I think I need to move to such a place one day in the future..lol. I believe that is how the first human lived.. in caves on the coast line. What a beautiful life! I like the idea better too, to collect mussels and fish and not have to kill big land mammals.. still feels not too fun to me.. hmm.
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I actually believe we could live on seafood and algae only. I have not tried it but I am sure it would be great when looking at their nutrient profile.
Inger, don't we need saturated fats?
I think that it's only possible to live exclusively on food from the sea if we include sea mammals and other creatures who can supply us with more saturated fats. Some German scientists tried a mackerel zc diet. The results have been devastating after some weeks/months. Too many PUFAs, even from raw animal sources can be very problematic. Let me see if I can find these papers...
Have you heard of the super fatty candlefish? It's supposed to have a perfect fatty acid balance, much better than salmon or mackerel. Unfortunately, it's not available in Europe, as far as I know.
Löwenherz
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I'm having the same problem all over Europe these days. On the Continent, they refuse to sell raw organ-meats because it's too much hassle, and they process the wild game they have - I'm hoping to eventually convince them to sell me a whole carcass with organs inside. The UK sellers told me that they usually don't bother as they have to pay 2 vets(one appointed by the EU and one by the UK government due to excess bureaucracy) so that, since organ-meats are mostly unwanted and can only be sold cheap they just throw the stuff away.
Re LWZ:- I eat more raw fruit than I used to. Not necessary and it adds to my food-budget. I'm looking to cut back. As regards organ-meats, my current dearth thereof is annoying me a lot. I consider raw organ-meats the best nutritional food out there.
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I still cannot understand how human beings can view raw broccoli as food. ???
Iguana, have you ever tried a plant-free diet? Or do you just BELIEVE that you need fruits, vegetables and nuts?
When I visit national parks in Europe I always see tons of animal food but no plant-food except herbs and some berries once in a year.
Löwenherz
Sometimes broccoli stems (the flower has always been bitter to me) are tasty and sometimes not. Every human being has a different history, is different and has varying transient needs.
Even if I had the opportunity to try a plant-free diet for several days (which I never had, even when traveling a few times around the planet) I would not try it, just as would not try an animal food free diet. Both would require the use of conceptual intelligence and of an ideology: animals as well as our far ancestors didn’t care whether a stuff is animal or vegetal, they would not even know where’s the difference. They’ve eaten whatever tastes good enough, without categorizing anything and even most animals considered as pure carnivores eat some plant foods, sometimes in the intestines of their preys.
Categorizing, by delineating artificial limits and borders between things is perhaps one of the biggest error of modern mankind. In nature, most of the things are more or less continuous, with a gradual change.
I avoid beliefs. Perhaps I could survive for some times with animals foods only (what an artificial constraint, again!), but I would not like it and be extremely frustrated.
Our ancestor came to Europe quite recently, once they had advanced hunting weapons and about the time they mastered the fire (even if a few seem to have wandered across before using the fire), as already discussed several times. Still there must have been chestnuts, pine nuts, hazelnuts, mushrooms, various edible wild plants and roots which still exist today. There’s always a close interaction between an animal species and its environment. I think that’s called “coevolution” and it means that animals modify their environment by spreading the seeds of the plants they eat. That’s probably why wild fruits such as cempedak, rambutans and durians were found only in the jungles populated by apes such as orangutans who eat those fruits and spread their seeds.
Cheers,
François
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I've read most of the books and blogs mentioned in various places on this forum, and the research in these sources has satisfied me that my predominantly animal diet is a wise choice. Everybody has their own propaganda, but my personal experience favors a diet of animal food.
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Inger, don't we need saturated fats?
I think that it's only possible to live exclusively on food from the sea if we include sea mammals and other creatures who can supply us with more saturated fats. Some German scientists tried a mackerel zc diet. The results have been devastating after some weeks/months. Too many PUFAs, even from raw animal sources can be very problematic. Let me see if I can find these papers...
Have you heard of the super fatty candlefish? It's supposed to have a perfect fatty acid balance, much better than salmon or mackerel. Unfortunately, it's not available in Europe, as far as I know.
Löwenherz
No not heard of this fish, interesting!
You might be right about we needing some saturated fats extra I do not know really. I do eat some. I should do a test for myself for sure. But I would not eat only mackerels / fatty fish then, but lots of oysters and shellfish! And seaweeds. Now I really want to make such an experiment...!
What happened to the ones trying a mackerel-diet? Does not sound too clever to me lol They forgot the seaweeds and the other food sources from the sea, there are plenty. I do believe we need seasonal carbs too, wild berries and such but nothing cultivated. I eat nuts / Siberian Zederkernels too I love them, and mushrooms.. almost every day.I am not thinking it is a good idea to eat only one sort of food at all.
If one lives in the tropics coconuts are great too! I love them too for sure.. trying to limit them in winter though and eating raw animal fat instead.
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No not heard of this fish, intresting!
You might be right about we needing some saturated fats extra I do not know really. I do eat some. I should do a test for myself for sure.
Yes, do it! ;)
I'm eagerly awaiting your report. It's always a pleasure to learn more about real human nutrition, based on the gifts of nature.
I could never follow such a diet. After some days on seafood only I always get very strong cravings for red meat and the taste of fish becomes repulsive.
But I would not eat only mackerels / fatty fish then, but lots of oysters and shellfish! And seaweeds.
From my experience I would say that such a diet would be too high in protein and too low in fat (as long as it is carb free). And it might be difficult to meet our caloric needs.
What happend to the ones trying a mackerel-diet?
They became infertile, sperm count went down to zero, wound healing problems and other problems, can't remember exactly.
I am not thinking it is a good idea to eat only one sort of food at all.
I agree..
I would like to eat much more wild white meats, white fowl like pheasant etc., but it's becoming more and more rare, unfortunately.
Löwenherz
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Even if I had the opportunity to try a plant-free diet for several days (which I never had, even when traveling a few times around the planet) I would not try it, just as would not try an animal food free diet.
Sorry Iguana, that means that you have no personal experience, that you have never felt the (amazing) effects of a keto adaptation process und that all your thoughts and opinions about plant-free diets are pure speculation based on your beliefs and nothing else.
Both would require the use of conceptual intelligence and of an ideology:
Not at all. Such choices could be based on personal experience. For example: Health problems from fructose and digestive trouble from harsh plant fiber.
animals as well as our far ancestors didn’t care whether a stuff is animal or vegetal, they would not even know where’s the difference.
Why do "instinctos" always believe that our ancestors have been intelligent like a piece of rock?
Löwenherz
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I still cannot understand how human beings can view raw broccoli as food. ???
I love to eat a whole raw broccoli as one meal, with my bare hands - delicious :)
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Sorry Iguana, that means that you have no personal experience, that you have never felt the (amazing) effects of a keto adaptation process und that all your thoughts and opinions about plant-free diets are pure speculation based on your beliefs and nothing else.
It’s not based on any belief at all, my friend, it’s based on the fact that there’s no mammal on Earth who is able to totally exclude the ingestion of plants, even more so in reference to an trendy obscure fad about ‘keto adaptation’. It would require the knowledge of the exact limit between plants and animals, something I’m uncertain myself.
I’ve no personal interest in experimenting neither a ridiculous one-food-only diet (mackerel in your example), nor a seafood-only-diet, nor even an animal-only-diet. You’re free to experiment anything yourself, but please let me live my life in the way I like while benefiting of the sensible experiences of the successful ones I know, without having to jeopardize my own health once again.
For me the question of nutrition is pretty much solved and I’ve got other interests in life.
Not at all. Such choices could be based on personal experience. For example: Health problems from fructose and digestive trouble from harsh plant fiber.
Of course, memory, experience and training also influence our alimentary choices. But in your example, such a digestive trouble could be due to a personal abnormal condition.
Why do "instinctos" always believe that our ancestors have been intelligent like a piece of rock?
?? Why would “Instinctos” believe that? On the opposite, I think most hominids were as clever as we are and I have an immense respect for animals such as apes, monkeys, foxes, cats, whales and dolphins. They are probably much more clever than most people can imagine. Aren’t you confusing intelligence and knowledge?
Cheers
François
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It’s not based on any belief at all, my friend, it’s based on the fact that there’s no mammal on Earth who is able to totally exclude the ingestion of plants, even more so in reference to an trendy obscure fad about ‘keto adaptation’.
Iguana,
you have absolutely no experience with ketogenic diets based on animal foods. Nevertheless you categorically condemn such diets. You mentioned here and there that you believe that Lex Rooker's dietary approach is silly or absurd.
And again, your reluctant attitude is solely based on your beliefs, nothing else my friend. You don't have any valid argument. You believe that we need plant foods because most animals eat plant foods? Human beings are no apes or wolves. Or do you believe such things because your guru believes it?
Personally, I don't know for sure if it is wise to avoid all plant foods. Tyler mentioned that there are no nutrients in plants that cannot be found in animals. And he is right. I studied several nutrient databases in detail. If you eat a variety of organ meats from land mammals + seafood you definetely get ALL known nutrients in sufficient amounts, including folates. Furthermore it's a proven fact that plant fiber is not necessary for a healthy human gi tract. In many cases harsh plant fiber is even harmful. That's the reason why "normal" people cook and raw foodists most often juice such foods.
The significant therapeutic effects of ketogenic diets are well documentated, especially in the cases of cancer, epileptic children and infertility. Many detailed reports are available at several University Hospitals. It's very stupid if you believe that ketogenic diets are just a "trendy obscure fad". If you believe that you need fruits and nuts, it's fine. But don't ignore the facts. Scientific facts and even reports in this forum. Lex, Inger and many others here seem to do very well on ketogenic diets that are very low in plant foods. On the other side a huge number of raw foodists got massive health problems from high fruit sugar consumption.
Please reread my post. I think that a mackerel diet or similar mono diets are everything else than a good idea.
Löwenherz
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Have you heard of the super fatty candlefish? It's supposed to have a perfect fatty acid balance, much better than salmon or mackerel. Unfortunately, it's not available in Europe, as far as I know.
Löwenherz
Oh man, I just heard about that fish in my American Indian history class, I think the teacher said that they were so high in fat that they were mostly used as candles because they burned so easily.. hearing that, since I always crave fat in my diet, I immediately googled the fish since I had my laptop with me in class. Wikipedia says the fish is considered an endangered species, and that disappointed me because now there's no way I'd get to try eating them. :(
"On November 2008, the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) received a petition from the Cowlitz Tribe to list a distinct population segment (DPS) of eulachon from Washington, Oregon, and California, as an endangered or threatened species under the Endangered Species Act.[1] (ESA). NMFS found that this petition presented enough information to warrant conducting a status review of the species. Based on the status review NMFS proposed listing this species as threatened on March 13, 2009.[2] On March 16, 2010, NOAA announced that the aforementioned population of eulachon will be listed as threatened under the ESA, effective on May 17, 2010 (See: the Federal Register notice published on May 18, 2010, at 74 FR 3178).[3]" -from wikipedia
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Oh man, I just heard about that fish in my American Indian history class, I think the teacher said that they were so high in fat that they were mostly used as candles because they burned so easily.. hearing that, since I always crave fat in my diet, I immediately googled the fish since I had my laptop with me in class. Wikipedia says the fish is considered an endangered species, and that disappointed me because now there's no way I'd get to try eating them. :(
Oh yeah, sounds really like a "super-food". Obviously, many, too many people were under this impression.
Be glad to live in the United States. Bison-fat is the non-plus-ultra, isn't it?
Löwenherz
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Furthermore it's a proven fact that plant fiber is not necessary for a healthy human gi tract. In many cases harsh plant fiber is even harmful.
Löwenherz
Oh hey, do you happen to have any links to any information about fiber being unnecessary or harmful? I keep trying to tell people how fiber is unneeded, unnecessary, and might even be harmful, but I don't have any sort of scientific evidence to back myself up.. the only thing I've seen about it is this guy: What Is So Menacing About Fiber? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQaBG1q2oEI#ws) and he just -looks- like a quack and super fake, even I'm skeptical about what he has to say just based on how he looks and talks, even though I have the experience of me eating a very low fiber diet and yet having no problems with digestion and excretion.
Also, I've had my mom argue to me that fiber is actually good for people who eat a lot of junk (SAD diet) because it pushes all that junk they eat out of them, whereas I don't need fiber because I eat such a healthy diet that I don't need to push any junk out.. and I didn't have much of an argument against that. My grandma who tries to eat healthy also said I need fiber to push the animal fat I eat out of my intestines, but I didn't have any sort of argument against that except for "No I don't!" which isn't going to convince anyone. I need more scientific and convincing evidence to back me up on this..
Oh yeah, sounds really like a "super-food". Obviously, many, too many people were under this impression.
Be glad to live in the United States. Bison-fat is the non-plus-ultra, isn't it?
Löwenherz
what is a non-plus-ultra?
I've been eating only bison meat lately because grass-fed beef is nearly impossible to find near me, and the bison is easier to find and reliably get, but I'm pretty sure all the bison I eat is grain-fed because none of them say anywhere that they are grass-fed, but the meat is also very very lean.. I haven't been able to find any pure bison fat either. I think I just live in a bad area. :'( I also lost my job a while ago, so I can't afford to like, buy online from slankers or anything because of the high shipping cost.. I might also have to stop with my raw dairy, it's so expensive even though it's the only thing that helps my cravings for fat that isn't commercial in-organic grain-fed fat.. I really can't find any good sources of grass-fed fat other than super expensive raw dairy!
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Oh hey, do you happen to have any links to any information about fiber being unnecessary or harmful?
Wolf, a good read is the book from Wolfgang Lutz about gi tract health. But I don't know if it's available in english. Here is an interesting website about ketogenic diets and fiber:
http://www.biblelife.org/bowel.htm (http://www.biblelife.org/bowel.htm)
Why do people usually cook hard plant foods? To reduce the fiber. Eating lots of RAW vegetables is a very new fad.
Non-plus-ultra? The best of the best!
Here is a cheap and good source for 100% grass-fed beef fat (better than suet!):
http://whiteoakpastures.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=117&zenid=16e23fc8ca373274724a1f6d2852cc57 (http://whiteoakpastures.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=117&zenid=16e23fc8ca373274724a1f6d2852cc57)
3.89 USD for 2.5 lbs.
I bought several times from them. The quality is good. The farm is located in GA. Shipping should be no problem.
If you ask me, NEVER eat grain-fed meat!
Löwenherz
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I love white oaks pastures.
I visited their farm last christmas. Their ground beef was the first meet I ever ate raw.
I get pretty good suet (organic, grass fed) from a farm that ships to miami every other week.
But I'm tempted to try theirs. Its cheaper too (by 50 cents/lb)
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Oh yeah, the other problem with shipping is that I live in southern california where it's always hot all the time, and during summer, anything left on the doorstep of my house for more than like 5 minutes isn't gonna be raw anymore, lol.
It's starting to cool down finally though, if the shipping cost isn't too high I might order some fat and even meat from them, since it's less likely it'll get cooked before reaching me. Is their stuff packaged in plastic though? that's another problem, especially with heat, plastic throws my appetite off raw meats and stuff especially if they get warmed/heated in plastic.
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Iguana,
you have absolutely no experience with ketogenic diets based on animal foods. Nevertheless you categorically condemn such diets. You mentioned here and there that you believe that Lex Rooker's dietary approach is silly or absurd. And again, your reluctant attitude is solely based on your beliefs, nothing else my friend. You don't have any valid argument. You believe that we need plant foods because most animals eat plant foods? Human beings are no apes or wolves.
Oh, God! I don’t remember I ever mentioned anything publicly about Lex's approach! I never pretended neither that I have any experience about ketogenic diets: on the contrary I don’t care about it as I don’t care for any specific ideological dietary system… and I don’t condemn it. Try it if you want, I told you: you’re free to experiment whatever you want.
I don’t believe that we absolutely need plant foods and I gladly admit that it’s perhaps possible that we can live without it. I don’t know and, once again, I don’t care! I only said I would be extremely frustrated if I had to survive exclusively on animal foods.
Many thanks for your kind question below. Do you really need an answer ?
Or do you believe such things because your guru believes it?
Personally, I don't know for sure if it is wise to avoid all plant foods. Tyler mentioned that there are no nutrients in plants that cannot be found in animals. And he is right. I studied several nutrient databases in detail. If you eat a variety of organ meats from land mammals + seafood you definetely get ALL known nutrients in sufficient amounts, including folates. Furthermore it's a proven fact that plant fiber is not necessary for a healthy human gi tract. In many cases harsh plant fiber is even harmful. That's the reason why "normal" people cook and raw foodists most often juice such foods.
You might be right, especially when taking into account your first sentence of the above quote!
The significant therapeutic effects of ketogenic diets are well documentated, especially in the cases of cancer, epileptic children and infertility. Many detailed reports are available at several University Hospitals. It's very stupid if you believe that ketogenic diets are just a "trendy obscure fad". If you believe that you need fruits and nuts, it's fine. But don't ignore the facts. Scientific facts and even reports in this forum. Lex, Inger and many others here seem to do very well on ketogenic diets that are very low in plant foods. On the other side a huge number of raw foodists got massive health problems from high fruit sugar consumption.
Ok, I’m a stupid ignoramus, no problem. But, BTW… “very low on plant foods” is a little bit different than without the slightest amount of plant food at all.
Please reread my post. I think that a mackerel diet or similar mono diets are everything else than a good idea.
Did I say the contrary?
Good night,
F
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I still cannot understand how human beings can view raw broccoli as food. ???
We have varying tastes and requirements.
And the vegetable variety may be different everywhere.
Your broccoli may suck, but some broccoli sources may be amazing.
I know when I buy from various sources, my top organic farmer usually comes out with the tastiest raw vegetables vs other sources. I gladly eat his vegetables raw because... they just taste good.
I will go and taste his raw broccoli stems and get back to you guys here.
One thing our forum lacks is a lot of touch, feel, see, hear and taste and rubbing elbow to elbow so we can learn better from one another. But yeah, discussions like this are very educational.
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Your broccoli may suck, but some broccoli sources may be amazing.
One thing our forum lacks is a lot of touch, feel, see, hear and taste and rubbing elbow to elbow so we can learn better from one another. But yeah, discussions like this are very educational.
Very true ! ;)
And every broccoli is unique, different from all the other broccolis ever grown on planet Earth ;) ;D
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Isn't an all-animal-foods diet (or mostly-animal-foods diet) too acid (I am talking about pH balance)?
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I will go and taste his raw broccoli stems and get back to you guys here.
Be sure to peel off the outer rough parts of the stems. The slender stems closest to the flowering part are the most sweet and tender...I am fighting for the reputation of broccoli stems. ;)
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Isn't an all-animal-foods diet (or mostly-animal-foods diet) too acid (I am talking about pH balance)?
The acid/alkali theory is nonsense:-
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html)
And besides, raw meats are far less acidic than cooked/processed meats.
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Isn't an all-animal-foods diet (or mostly-animal-foods diet) too acid (I am talking about pH balance)?
Joy, I am also familiar with all the "healthy eating" advice, such as acid/alkaline balance, eat adequate fiber, eat low-fat, limit meat, etc. ad nauseam. I followed that advice for decades and ended up with such aches in my body that I felt like I'd rather die than live.
After 1 1/2 years on RPD, using an instinctotherapie approach that has led me to very-low-carb and high fat, I have learned that all the "healthy eating" advice is medical and political hogwash. The research and actual results that are circulating around the mainstream are not valid findings. I wish I were the kind of writer that could spell out all the scientific details that I have read, but I don't have the patience to write a good, persuasive post. Read up for yourself and you will learn what I have learned.
The comments above in this thread seems to miss the point of how to eat correctly. This is not a war between various raw-paleo styles of eating. Eat what is right for you by distancing yourself from processed foods and processed nutritional dogma. This will let your instincts lead you to the right answers for you. You don't have to learn the right way to eat from someone else and then follow that way with disregard for your results.
There is a wealth of information here for you to begin your own learning.
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You asked such a specific question Joy - if eating nothing but meat will give us all the nutrients we need.
I guess I don't look at food that way, because over the years I've seen "experts" changing what they think I "need" and discovering/creating more and more nutrients until I just gave up trying to keep up with them. I'm pretty certain that we are still at the beginning.
One might conclude that eating nothing but animals foods must have all the nutrients needed to survive since Lowen and Rex certainly haven't dropped dead from malnutrition ;) Just like with any diet there just hasn't been and won't be any good long-term studies because such studies won't make anyone any money. There are studies with diseases like cancer and epilepsy, but none with already healthy people determining the effect on general health. We don't know what will happen long-term and we most certainly don't know if such a diet will make a general population thrive. Some people seem to have gotten ill eating only meat and others have healed themselves. To me, it would be an experiment - like eating all fruit or all vegetables or all sprouts or all algae. I find it fascinating to hear what people have to say about their experiences doing such diets. I watch closely to read not only what they say about how it makes them feel, but I watch how they write and interact in general with others and watch if there are changes. It's how I determined that I would not want to try a fruitarian diet. I appreciate others doing that experiment for me.
I guess my question is why do you ask? Is there a reason why you are thinking you might want to constrict your choices? Are you trying to heal or achieve something in particular?
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.After 1 1/2 years on RPD, using an instinctotherapie approach that has led me to very-low-carb and high fat, I have learned that all the "healthy eating" advice is medical and political hogwash. The research and actual results that are circulating around the mainstream are not valid findings.
(…)
Eat what is right for you by distancing yourself from processed foods and processed nutritional dogma. This will let your instincts lead you to the right answers for you. You don't have to learn the right way to eat from someone else and then follow that way with disregard for your results.
Excellent, thanks! You plainly demonstrate that instinctotherapy doesn’t necessarily lead everyone to eat too much fruit and too little meat as some here persistently and wrongly pretend. ;)
Very good post from Dorothy, too! :)
And BTW, I had forgotten to say that I've been unable to eat the stems of the last few broccolis I bought as they tasted bitter, although produced by an "organic" farmer. My chicken and ducks apparently liked those broccolis anyway!
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Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread by sharing your knowledge and experience, with a little fun bickering.
Dorothy, I ask this question because I do not like to eat raw vegetables in general--except for broccoli stems ;) and a couple of other items. I want to know if I could stop worrying about eating my share of raw vegetables. (BTW, I love cooked vegetables. But I do not eat them anymore except when invited to friends' home-made meals.)
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Dorothy, I ask this question because I do not like to eat raw vegetables in general--except for broccoli stems ;) and a couple of other items. I want to know if I could stop worrying about eating my share of raw vegetables. (BTW, I love cooked vegetables. But I do not eat them anymore except when invited to friends' home-made meals.)
In that case Joy, I personally wouldn't try to force myself to eat anything if my body doesn't like it or isn't craving it just because someone, anyone, says it's good for me - unless doing so makes you feel really great pretty quickly or you are having some kind of illness pop up as a result of what is generally accepted to be a deficiency in a certain nutrient. If you get rickets for example.
The people that eat all meat here seem to feel really good from it and enjoy it and I feel really good from salads - unlike so many here - and I really love to eat salads and nibble from my garden.
Forcing yourself to eat vegetables seems counter-productive to me - especially raw. Some people just don't have the digestive fire to do that and feel well. Perhaps that's why you like cooked vegetables - they might be easier for you to digest. I say - trust your body. Eat what you want and what makes you feel good! Forget the experts and their vitamins. If they really knew what they were talking about we'd all be drinking Tang and feeling wonderful. ;)
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I feel really good from salads - unlike so many here - and I really love to eat salads and nibble from my garden.
Dorothy, do you like salads or do you like raw vegetables without any sauce/oil? The instincto people on this forum seem to advocate eating raw vegetables (and raw animal foods) without any sauce. That is when I find most vegetables unappetizing, except for broc. stems, lettuce hearts, baby colorful peppers, and cherry tomatoes. If we are talking about salads--vegetables with my favorite home-made sauces, that is quite another matter.
To be fair, I also cut down drastically on my animal foods consumption if I do not add any sauces. What is left is fruit...lots of fruit! Maybe this is just a transition period....
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I do like to go out to the garden and "graze", but I also love to sit down at the table to a meal with sauce! Sauces and dressings to me just make a good thing even better. :)
I know that the sauces might interfere with the body knowing how much of something to eat or when to stop - but for me the spices and sauces add so much enjoyment that I use them anyway. I'm not hard core - not by a long shot. I bet Iguana would tell you to eat only what tastes good and feels right without the sauce. It makes sense. I guess I'm just a heathen. ;)
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Ok, I’m a stupid ignoramus, no problem.
Iguana, sorry for my slightly harsh comment. But I get allergic reactions when I read ignorant words like "trendy obscure fad about keto adaptation", "a ridiculous one-food-only diet (mackerel in your example)" (which I never recommended) or instincto drivel like "categorizing by delineating artificial limits".
I have seen too many raw foodists in the last 13 years who have seriously damaged their physical and mental health by eating too much fruit sugar. Sugar nearly always tastes good to nearly everyone. Do we need sugar? No. For me, it's extremely artificial and absolutely not recommendable to eat imported overbred high sugar fruits like mangoes and durians in our north European climate zones, especially during winter times.
But I don't want to discuss the instincto ideas and practices here again. As you know I view it as completely absurd.
The question here was: Do we need plant foods to be healthy? I think another question could be even more interesting:
Ketogenic or not ketogenic?
I have seen tremendous healing effects during strict ketogenic diets based on animal foods, like many others. Even small amounts of fruit sugar terminated this healing state abruptly...
Many greetings to Southern France
Löwenherz
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And besides, raw meats are far less acidic than cooked/processed meats.
Raw meats have actually an alkaline effect on our bodies, as one german physician, Dr. med. Klaus Hoffmann found out. He recommended his patients with rheumatic diseases to eat raw meat.
Unfortunately most doctors are still unable to think beyond their more or less useless medical eduaction..
Löwenherz
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One thing our forum lacks is a lot of touch, feel, see, hear and taste and rubbing elbow to elbow so we can learn better from one another. But yeah, discussions like this are very educational.
For most people, food is always a highly emotional topic . Food seems to touch our deep interior.
You are right, a personal conversation is always much better than just words on a computer display.
We should think about a raw paleo meeting again.
Löwenherz
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Well, my own ketogenic diet experiment ultimately was a disaster. And some others here also found it to be a problem.
Any info on this Dr Klaus Hoffmann? A website or whatever? Is he a raw-meat guru like Aajonus or more like Dr Mercola? I see that he recommends Africans to eat raw fruits as they are supposedly more adapted to them, but recommends Europeans not to.
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Well, my own ketogenic diet experiment ultimately was a disaster. And some others here also found it to be a problem.
Any info on this Dr Klaus Hoffmann? A website or whatever? Is he a raw-meat guru like Aajonus or more like Dr Mercola? I see that he recommends Africans to eat raw fruits as they are supposedly more adapted to them, but recommends Europeans not to.
Ketogenic does not necessarily mean Zero Carb or animal food only..
My impression was and is that your diet is ketogenic according to the low amounts of fruits you mention in your reports. It all depends on the sugar and fat intake. High fat, very low sugar lets the liver make ketones.
BTW: My own zero carb zero plant food dietary experiments were not fully satisfying in the long-run despite some tremendous healing effects. I always got very irritable and nervous after some days or weeks. But recently I identified missing nutrients as a causative factor in my case. Folates seem to be very important. As long as I eat raw liver on a frequent basis (small amounts are sufficient) or drink dark green juices as a suboptimal source, my zero carb Lex Rooker style dietary experiments are working very well with strong benefits. Due to my taste preferences I always tend to eat too much muscle meat and not enough sea foods and organ meats. I could eat New York strip steaks every day for ever.
I have read a book from Dr Klaus Hoffmann many years ago, I can't remember the title. As fas as I know he has no website. I will try to contact him personally next week. Yesterday I read somewhere that he retired recently, unfortunately. As far as I know he never investigated the effects of ketogenic diets. I just mentionend him regarding raw meat eating.
Löwenherz
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Is he a raw-meat guru like Aajonus or more like Dr Mercola?
Not at all! He seems to be a "normal" human being, a motivated physician in private practice. We definitely need more such courageous people!
Löwenherz
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Iguana, sorry for my slightly harsh comment. But I get allergic reactions when I read ignorant words like "trendy obscure fad about keto adaptation", "a ridiculous one-food-only diet (mackerel in your example)" (which I never recommended) or instincto drivel like "categorizing by delineating artificial limits".
That’s ok ! Joy 2012 had some fun with it and we should have as well…
Probably « keto adaptation » is obscure for me because as a pre-fire hominid, I have absolutely no clue about what it is - and I don’t care.
We agree that a one-food-only diet (mackerel in your example) is ridiculous and I didn’t mean nor even think at all that you assume the opposite. I supposed that you, of course, agree it is ridiculous !
"Categorizing by delineating artificial limits" is a sentence personally self-devised by your Iguana and has nothing to do with the instincto theory (or drivel if you prefer, but I find it really strange that two persons apparently sane can diverge to the point that one finds something logical while the other finds it’s a drivel). ???
Sugar nearly always tastes good to nearly everyone. Do we need sugar? No. For me, it's extremely artificial and absolutely not recommendable to eat imported overbred high sugar fruits like mangoes and durians in our north European climate zones, especially during winter times.
Oh no ! Sugary foods don’t always taste good: the sweeter they are the more mouth burning is the “stop” ! We could move to warmer places and eat durians and mangoes along with sea turtles eggs and fresh coconuts (aren’t you a big fun of coconuts, even in our north European climate zones ?) By walking not even in straight line at 4 km/h during 5 h/day, it would take less then a year to walk 5000 km down south (depending where we start from and as long as we wouldn't have to swim across a sea, of course). Early men where nomads and so should we be. :)
Perhaps we wouldn’t need sweet foods in case we have enough other foods (and enough love !). I don’t know. Is there anyone having successfully experimented a “ketogenic diet” over several decades ? Have newborns been grownup into very healthy adults with a strict 100% ketogenic diet ? BTW, the answer to both questions is YES for the “instincto drivel”. ;)
Let’s have fun bickering gently!
François
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Well, the Inuit have.
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I think a lot of the problems people have with plant foods comes from eating low-Brix, low-nutrition fruits/veggies.
I certainly experience far better reactions to high-Brix fruit versus low-Brix.
I just tossed out about 8 oranges, because they were all 8 or 9 Brix.
Not even fit to feed to animals.
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I think a lot of the problems people have with plant foods comes from eating low-Brix, low-nutrition fruits/veggies.
I certainly experience far better reactions to high-Brix fruit versus low-Brix.
I just tossed out about 8 oranges, because they were all 8 or 9 Brix.
Not even fit to feed to animals.
Let's get this straight. All this Brix issue is, I believe, a question of making the soil nutritious enough for a plant, so that adding manure and adding minerals in the form of powders and mixing it all up with the topsoil around the plants once a year or so should do the trick? I am currently planning on adding a number of fruit-trees to a particular garden because such trees can go for long periods without watering and I can't be there very often. With the ones I've already planted, I've used some sort of high-tech nutrient-rich substance provided by the shop and watered extensively, but that's all so far. Since the soil is likely pretty bad(the garden is terraced all over, after all), I think I could do better. Can one buy powdered minerals like sodium or whatever from gardening centres?
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Yes, do it! ;)
I'm eagerly awaiting your report. It's always a pleasure to learn more about real human nutrition, based on the gifts of nature.
I could never follow such a diet. After some days on seafood only I always get very strong cravings for red meat and the taste of fish becomes repulsive.
From my experience I would say that such a diet would be too high in protein and too low in fat (as long as it is carb free). And it might be difficult to meet our caloric needs.
They became infertile, sperm count went down to zero, wound healing problems and other problems, can't remember exactly.
I agree..
I would like to eat much more wild white meats, white fowl like pheasant etc., but it's becoming more and more rare, unfortunately.
Löwenherz
The small "herrings" I eat often have around 1,8 g saturated and 6,5 g unsaturated fat / 100 g. So seafood do have some saturated fat too. But yes, quite little.. I love raw grassfed beef fat. I can eat quite a lot just plain.. soooo yummy! I don't get it always, though. I could for sure if I would bother more..lol. I think we can have whatever we want if we just want it enough and start looking!
But for other nutrients, like zink, selenium, iodine.. every so important mineral, seafood is just the best source ever. Seaweeds too. So why would one need vegetables?
I can buy wild duck here from France, BTW, prefrozen! I have not yet because quite expensive, but maybe I will try one day!
IDK, after eating so much seaweed and seafoods I have started to dream so much.. I dream every night and I remember the dreams too.. strange! But nice for sure! My sleep is amazing too.
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Can one buy powdered minerals like sodium or whatever from gardening centres?
There are soil enhancement products that contain a broad range of ionic minerals. I would use those. In the US, they are easiest to buy online. UK gardeners are more passionate than US gardeners, so you might find a good mineral supplement in your gardening centers.
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Just crush your oysters' shells into a powder and spread it on the soil.
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Just crush your oysters' shells into a powder and spread it on the soil.
Sadly, raw shellfish, where I live right now, are far too expensive. A genuine RPDer should always live by the coast.
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An idea with seaweeds. Most, except some of the softer varieties are very difficult to digest, unless prolonged cooking is used. To avoid cooking, and aid in the digestion, I take Alaria, collected by Larch in Maine, best seaweed in the US, and I take a big hand full and freeze it, even though it's already dried. That decreases almost all water content. Then I blend it in my vitamix. But first I put the blender portion and lid in the freezer, so that I cold blend it. It almost comes out like a powder. I eat two to three heaping teaspoons a day. It is wonderful with a bit of shredded coconut and coconut oil. I eat this on an empty stomach. I tend to experience and believe that it is so alkaline that it impedes digestion of raw meat, in that it can neutralize stomach acids. One can chew dried alaria for 'hours' in the mouth and still have a wad to chew. I would like to stone cold grind the blended material to make a fine powder, like the powder that sticks to the blender lid and walls. That simply melts in your mouth. I keep the blended powder in a small jar and in the fridge. I make it every three days or so. So much better tasting than Kale etc..
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I don’t know. Is there anyone having successfully experimented a “ketogenic diet” over several decades ? Have newborns been grownup into very healthy adults with a strict 100% ketogenic diet ?
François
Judging from my own experiences and the reports of countless ketogenic dieters I strongly believe that the ketogenic state is the normal operating mode of human bodies. The advantages over sugar metabolism are overwhelming. But the process of keto adaptation takes time and can be very hard. One of many really fascinating things, for example, is the lack of lactic acid in ketosis. Sporting activities become a completely new experience. Many people suffer from receding gums, caused by grains and fruits. In deep ketosis the gums grow back! Most dentists still believe that this is impossible. Most people on ketogenic diets sleep much better. Levels of concentration are higher, stable blood sugar levels, no spikes, no mood swings, much higher fertility. etc. In short, for me, we have enough evidence that a state of ketosis is very benefical for us.
And yes, there have been a lot of indigenous people over the world who "lived off the fat of the land". What a nice english phrase. Eskimos had caribou fat, some Canadians candle fish fat, Norh American Indians buffalo fat, South American Gauchos beef fat, many Africans elephant fat, Masai dairy fat, Aborigines emu fat etc. They all praised the fats. High fat, low carb means ketosis.
Löwenherz
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With the ones I've already planted, I've used some sort of high-tech nutrient-rich substance provided by the shop and watered extensively, but that's all so far.
That's completely wrong. If these trees are too weak, let them die.
Nutrient-rich substances and extensive watering in the first months makes trees addicted and weak for their whole life.
If your goal is just to harvest as much fruit as possible, it's another thing.
Löwenherz
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An idea with seaweeds. Most, except some of the softer varieties are very difficult to digest, unless prolonged cooking is used.
Do we really need seaweeds? Can't we get enough iodine from raw seafood that is easy to digest?
Somehow my body tells me that seaweed is no real food, but shrimps are perfect..
Löwenherz
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On part I'd agree. I don't care much for seafood. Except Uni, Oysters, at time, yellow tail and a few others. But still quite difficult to get fresh and acceptable. The trace mins in seaweed are by far the most balanced of any food. Land animals are only going to have what's in their grazing land. The other benefit of eating seaweed the way I discussed is the amounts of gentle fibre for the bowel. Lowenherz, knowing how you enjoy coconut, you might like to try mixing the two. Tastes like an incredible fatty seafood. I also like how seaweed is loaded with mg. Yes seafood has it also, but meats are mostly devoid. And most waters we drink are so unbalanced with too much ca. The mg. from seaweeds twice a day I believe keeps that ca. imbalance in check. Just my thoughts.
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There seem to be a lot of people on this site advocating ketosis. I tried it for over a year because of the suggestions and comments of people on this forum.
Keto has to be the worst thing along with 80/10/10 Raw Vegan that I have ever done for my health.
During keto I got all the usual negative symptoms associated with a the diet. Brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, heart palpitations, & a kidney stone. For over a year I kept at this diet because people said: it takes a week for your body to adapt, it can take 1-3 months to adapt, it could take more than a year to adapt but it's the best thing ever.
After bringing back fruit into my diet all the symptoms slowly went away.
Everyone seems to be different. Some people can handle and even benefit from some things, while others can't. This is a quote from someone advocating blood-type diets: "As a dental hygienist who's surveyed lots of patients, the connections between blood types and what works in the body is uncanny".
Not to mention your daily diet every day on raw keto can be extremely bland & monotonous; especially without any plant foods!
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My ketogenic experience was odd. Whenever I avoid plant foods for several days, I start feeling hyper-alert and very calm etc., my appetite is much less(and seems more normal). I also find I increasingly get far less stamina during exercise. After c. 3 weeks of going ketogenic, I swiftly deteriorate and get brain-fog, anxiety, heart-palpitations, and severely weakened teeth, and feel constantly massively dehydrated yet no amount of water consumption gets rid of the feeling of dehydration. Soon I have to give up and go back to raw omnivore or face imminent hospitalisation. Everyone is different, I guess. I wish I could go ketogenic permanently as it would lower the cost of my food dramatically.
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Most people on ketogenic diets sleep much better. Levels of concentration are higher, stable blood sugar levels, no spikes, no mood swings, much higher fertility. etc.
We have those results with instinctonutrition as well because standard cooked diet disturbs sleep, hampers concentration, induces nightmares and unstable blood sugar levels, reduces fertility and so on.
And yes, there have been a lot of indigenous people over the world who "lived off the fat of the land". What a nice english phrase. Eskimos had caribou fat, some Canadians candle fish fat, Norh American Indians buffalo fat, South American Gauchos beef fat, many Africans elephant fat, Masai dairy fat, Aborigines emu fat etc. They all praised the fats. High fat, low carb means ketosis.
Didn’t you write that even the slightest amount of sweet food ends ketosis? Or am I confused?
Ok, Eskimos ate a lot of blubber from sea-mammals. But that stuff is in short supply in SW France! Here we have a real hard time trying to find enough clean meat (and it’s even more difficult to obtain fatty meat), unlike what seems to be the case in Australia, US and England. Anyway, didn’t Inuits eat seaweeds and also eagerly eat greens whenever they were lucky enough to find some?
Those other indigenous people you cite eat animal fat, I easily believe you. Why wouldn’t they? (I also do, of course, but only until instinctive stop so that I don’t go beyond my digestive capacity and body needs) But it doesn’t mean they don’t (or didn’t) eat greens, nuts, fruits or honey as well, at least sometimes. Moreover, they all eat some cooked food, so we can neither take them as an example of 100% raw eaters nor match up their case with ours.
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Since we ate cooked food for decades, we'd better not to use our dejections as aLive suggests because it's loaded with noxious molecules we're still rejecting. Those abnormal molecules will eventually find their way into the plants we're bound to eat...
See Pottenger's experiments with cats.
To think Iguana that you have been eating initial foods for twenty six years and you think your crap is still toxic!
How many of these abnormal molecules have you managed to save up in your body so that you still able to excrete them after such a long time?
Do you really think that after 26 years you are a significant source of abnormal molecules compared to the exhaust from nearby traffic, sprays from fields, etc ?
Re Pottenger's experiments with cats, which showed how hazardous a 100% cooked food diet was for the health of the cats and the plants growing from their excrement, how does this apply to TylerDurdens situation where he is eating only raw food?
@TylerDurden, why wouldn't you go near fruit that had been naturally fertilised by a creature on a raw carnivorous diet? Where do you get your fruit from at the moment?
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My ketogenic experience was odd. Whenever I avoid plant foods for several days, I start feeling hyper-alert and very calm etc., my appetite is much less(and seems more normal). I also find I increasingly get far less stamina during exercise. After c. 3 weeks of going ketogenic, I swiftly deteriorate and get brain-fog, anxiety, heart-palpitations, and severely weakened teeth, and feel constantly massively dehydrated yet no amount of water consumption gets rid of the feeling of dehydration. Soon I have to give up and go back to raw omnivore or face imminent hospitalisation. Everyone is different, I guess. I wish I could go ketogenic permanently as it would lower the cost of my food dramatically.
Your description sounds like your body is going into conservation/starvation mode. Increasing alertness to help you find food, while decreasing appetite to help you last longer.
Many people suffer from receding gums, caused by grains and fruits. In deep ketosis the gums grow back! Most dentists still believe that this is impossible. Most people on ketogenic diets sleep much better. Levels of concentration are higher, stable blood sugar levels, no spikes, no mood swings, much higher fertility. etc.
I experienced the receding gums & teeth grinding and chipping when I tried 80/10/10rv. I don't need ketosis for my mouth health to return. All I need are enough animal fats. Returning to raw paleo reversed/stopped it all. It seems to be large amounts of animal fats that are important, not ketosis.
As for your statement/description of "most people" on keto diets. That only applies to people who can handle keto. People who can't, like myself, experience all those negative symptoms while ON keto; and the symptoms are absent while on a regular raw paleo diet.
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Raw omnivore, not raw carnivore... Anyway, I don't like the notion of eating traces of my own faeces, left on fruits or whatever. I get my fruit from local supermarkets. Normally, I would not be seen dead in such places, but, where I currently live, the supermarkets are "less worse" than in the UK. They sell grassfed, albeit pasteurised dairy, for example. I buy raw wild game for all my animal food, though, currently can't get raw organ-meats, which annoys me considerably.
The other garden is abroad. I only visit it occasionally, but would prefer decent fruits as the fruit over there is even more tasteless and watery than elsewhere.
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To think Iguana that you have been eating initial foods for twenty six years and you think your crap is still toxic!
How many of these abnormal molecules have you managed to save up in your body so that you still able to excrete them after such a long time?
Do you really think that after 26 years you are a significant source of abnormal molecules compared to the exhaust from nearby traffic, sprays from fields, etc ?
Re Pottenger's experiments with cats, which showed how hazardous a 100% cooked food diet was for the health of the cats and the plants growing from their excrement, how does this apply to TylerDurdens situation where he is eating only raw food?
Yes, it’ good that you bring up this important question and I was expecting such an answer!
Here’s a striking experience we had when traveling around the world with my then wife and 9 years old son. We always carried some drinking water with us and in view to use it we once kept an empty plastic gallon we had found, one in the opaque kind of plastic as used (then?) in USA. According to its label and smell it had contained orangeade. We thoroughly washed it several times, but its orangeade smell was still there. Then we immersed it several days, perhaps a week or more, in the seawater of a remote Pacific Island’s lagoon. Still the damned smell was there with no way to get rid of it, so that we had to abandon the idea of using that container…
Before to eat initial raw food only, I had eaten cooked food for 41 years. If a simple plastic thin wall can impregnably retain for so long some molecules of the juice it contained, imagine what is the situation in an extremely complex body, much more intricate than a sponge.
GCB and friends found out with their long and thorough experiments with hundreds of mice and other animals that the duration of detoxination is about the same as the duration of the previous intoxination. Of course the intensity of this detox gradually decreases with time until it becomes unnoticeable. The indicator is the smell: whenever something has a smell it’s because it releases fragrant molecules in the air. With the years of raw paleo, the bad smell of our sweating slowly decreases and the same happens to our faeces, but it seems to take longer for the last. Wild animals' faeces usually don’t stink, while the ones of humans and animals fed cooked food and garbage do seriously stink.
I bought 6 weeks old chicken (I should have bought one day old ones, but it was then impractical because I didn’t have the infrastructure for such young ones). They stunk strongly at the beginning and their stinking gradually decreased for about 6 weeks also before reaching a quite stable and barely noticeable state.
That’s it…
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Your description sounds like your body is going into conservation/starvation mode. Increasing alertness to help you find food, while decreasing appetite to help you last longer.
I experienced the receding gums & teeth grinding and chipping when I tried 80/10/10rv. I don't need ketosis for my mouth health to return. All I need are enough animal fats. Returning to raw paleo reversed/stopped it all. It seems to be large amounts of animal fats that are important, not ketosis.
As for your statement/description of "most people" on keto diets. That only applies to people who can handle keto. People who can't, like myself, experience all those negative symptoms while ON keto; and the symptoms are absent while on a regular raw paleo diet.
Great post! ;)
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Anyway, didn’t Inuits eat seaweeds and also eagerly eat greens whenever they were lucky enough to find some?
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Moreover, they all eat some cooked food, so we can neither take them as an example of 100% raw eaters nor match up their case with ours.
Iguana, ketosis is a metabolic state that is very different from "normal" sugar metabolism. It has principally nothing to do with plant free diets or debates about raw vs. cooked food. On a ketogenic high fat diet you can eat as much nuts and low sugar vegetables as you want without leaving ketosis. Even vegan diets can be ketogenic, raw or cooked. The key point here is sugar.
It seems to be your mission to tell everyone here every day that the sugar based "instincto" idea is the Holy Grail. I could talk hours about "instinctos" in Germany and how they completely ruined their physical and mental health. Emaciation, depressions, blood sugar problems, fruit sugar addictions and isolation were common. I have seen eight year old "instincto" children with a mouth full of cavities and countless other absurdities.
After many years I stopped eating fruit sugar because I noticed that it damages my body at an increasing rate. I will continue my ketogenic diet that is very similar to Lex's diet and will report about the results here from time to time. BTW: I don't eat coconuts anymore.
Most people here have never experienced the effects of a keto adaptation. Furthermore it's very difficult to get rid of our sugar addictions. That makes it even more difficult to discuss ketogenic diets.
Best wishes
Löwenherz
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After c. 3 weeks of going ketogenic, I swiftly deteriorate and get brain-fog, anxiety, heart-palpitations, and severely weakened teeth, and feel constantly massively dehydrated yet no amount of water consumption gets rid of the feeling of dehydration. Soon I have to give up and go back to raw omnivore or face imminent hospitalisation. Everyone is different, I guess. I wish I could go ketogenic permanently as it would lower the cost of my food dramatically.
Very interesting. It sounds like symptoms of a keto-acidosis, which diabetics can get.
You say that you have to go back to raw omnivore after a few weeks. Would vegetables be sufficient or do you need fruit sugar in such cases?
In my case I always get heart palpitations, a dry mouth, weakness and nervousness in the first two weeks. Thereafter these symptoms disappear, but only if I eat folate rich foods like liver on a frequent basis. Folates could be only one identified of several involved nutrients. Zero Carb diets based on muscle meats only never worked for me. They never sounded convincing to me, but I tried it out of curiosity and due to my taste preferences to steaks.
In your case, I would try to find out the underlying issues, if you are interested in a long-term ketogenic lifestyle. Measuring levels of blood sugar and ketones could be helpful..
Löwenherz
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At the time, I tried everything such as raw organ-meats of various kinds, making sure I got enough fat etc.None of that worked. I was 100% all -animal food. Unlike you, I do not find that a diet can be low carb and still be ketogenic as ketosis apparently needs c.60g a day or (much) less in order to stay activated. That means, that just one apple or avocado ruins ketosis. I can live indefinitely on a VLC/LC, non-ketogenic diet.
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Iguana, ketosis is a metabolic state that is very different from "normal" sugar metabolism. It has principally nothing to do with plant free diets or debates about raw vs. cooked food. On a ketogenic high fat diet you can eat as much nuts and low sugar vegetables as you want without leaving ketosis. Even vegan diets can be ketogenic, raw or cooked. The key point here is sugar.
So, then low sugar vegetables are ok, but…
Didn’t you write that even the slightest amount of sweet food ends ketosis? Or am I confused?
Where is the limit between low sugar and high sugar?
It seems to be your mission to tell everyone here every day that the sugar based "instincto" idea is the Holy Grail. I could talk hours about "instinctos" in Germany and how they completely ruined their physical and mental health. Emaciation, depressions, blood sugar problems, fruit sugar addictions and isolation were common. I have seen eight year old "instincto" children with a mouth full of cavities and countless other absurdities.
I’m fed up of reading such wicked gossip and erroneous assumptions. For your info, the “instincto” is not “sugar based”. All the serious “instinctos” children (that is having always various raw animal food available and eating some everyday or almost) I know have no problem whatsoever and are in perfect health. Germany seems to be a very particular country in the way “instincto” is practiced there. You must be talking about vegetarians or almost vegetarians calling themselves ”instinctos”. I’m also fed up to read rants of people believing in snake oils and scams promoted by various gurus (I’m not thinking of you here) while they seem unable to understand basic facts and rational ideas such as Eveheart explained much better than I’ve been relentlessly, but unsuccessfully, trying to do :
I have been relying on the basic fact that pre-agricultural people did not have modern diseases. With that in mind, I stick to raw paleo and have no need to search for other therapies for the symptoms I used to have. I believe that ancient man was, by default, an instinctive eater - nobody had ideas of what a person should eat.
When I first joined this forum, I was obsessed with wanting to ask what to do. Eventually, I realized that the missing evidence was my own proof of RPD. I stopped asking and paid attention to what I was doing and how well it worked.
After many years I stopped eating fruit sugar because I noticed that it damages my body at an increasing rate. I will continue my ketogenic diet that is very similar to Lex's diet and will report about the results here from time to time. BTW: I don't eat coconuts anymore.
Still go tacking in search of your way from the greatest thing on Earth to another opposed greatest thing? Ok, please let us know your results when you’ll have some years of steady experimenting consistently on the same diet, without always changing your ideas and practice. That would be fine to have at least one successful long term experience in that field, because so far Lex's one isn't really convincing according to the various health problems he honestly reported.
Most people here have never experienced the effects of a keto adaptation. Furthermore it's very difficult to get rid of our sugar addictions. That makes it even more difficult to discuss ketogenic diets.
So, you know what you got to do.
Best wishes too,
François
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To Löwenherz:
I won’t discus any longer about impressions and conjectures. It suffice to look at the actual results of the experiment: I have almost fifty years of experience on my own body, there are many who practice the instincto correctly for twenty, thirty or forty years and have no problems. Cancers appeared in small numbers and have always been linked to excessive consumption of domestic animals’ meat. All instinctos born children are in an excellent state of health and some are now healthy adults. Wait for an equivalent experience duration before judging and we'll see. All the rest is verbiage more or less disguised as scientific beliefs.
I really don’t understand from where all this nonsense on instincto children comes from. If you want an example of a child born instincto from a mother and a father who already had 10 years of instincto behind, who has never eaten cooked and still practice instinctive nutrition, here are some pictures of my youngest son taken when he was 25.
I emphasize that he has never done any particular sport or workout and that his muscles spontaneously formed, as we can see in those pictures. Another clarification: no cavities. His food: 100 % paleo organic products grown without chemicals and without heat processing, either direct or indirect (nothing hot dried, no heated compost, etc.)
I hope this will stop the stupid rumors circulating on this forum and encourage those who had supposedly seen too lean instinctos children to question what kind of instincto they practiced.
PS: The small bumps on his right arm are drops of water, not a sign of denutrition ;)
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Sounds like some lost translation between French Instinctos and German Instinctos.
Seems German Instinctos think it's all about getting lots of fruit all the time.
While USA's Eveheart's example shows her instincts leaned towards markedly less fruit and more carnivorous.
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Sounds like some lost translation between French Instinctos and German Instinctos.
Seems German Instinctos think it's all about getting lots of fruit all the time.
While USA's Eveheart's example shows her instincts leaned towards markedly less fruit and more carnivorous.
Absolutely correct. In Austria/Germany, "Instinkto" is mainly referred to as "RohKost" and is a label mainly used by those who are 100% raw vegan, with a tiny minority thereof being raw vegetarian(ie plus raw dairy and raw eggs). Iguana is more inclined to eating lots of raw meats as well given the marvellous display of mold-ridden, raw wild game in his fridge etc.
I'm very deeply grateful to the Instincto movement myself,as, while I didn't agree with the notion of a high-fruit diet(admittedly, this high-fruit notion was claimed by the anti-raw website beyondveg.com), Instincto's basic theory and guidelines helped me to escape from the Primal Diet which had only partially solved my health-problems previously.
The absurd claim re Instinkto children can only be made genuinely versus children raised on a 100% raw vegan diet as that would involve missing nutrients that young children desperately need for proper growth of brain etc. There have indeed been such cases of raw vegan couples' children needing to be taken away by social services etc. However, any child on a raw omnivorous/palaeo diet would have no such issues as they would get sufficient vitamin B12 etc.
How did GCB anyway, get his ideas originally? I mean there is a certain common-sense involved, obviously, but, maybe, he knew someone before him who had similiar ideas?
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While USA's Eveheart's example shows her instincts leaned towards markedly less fruit and more carnivorous.
My natural taste and appetite, untainted by the seductive tastes and smells of seasoned/cooked food, steers me towards the foods that heal and balance me. It has nothing to do with my country of residence.
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Löwenherz
why did you cut coconut out?
What are your fat sources now?
Do you consume any plant food at all at the moment?
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How did GCB anyway, get his ideas originally? I mean there is a certain common-sense involved, obviously, but, maybe, he knew someone before him who had similiar ideas?
Of course, he knew about the raw foodists, but at the time everyone thought that modern humans had lost their alimentary instinct. The experiments of Clara Davis were little known in continental Europe and I don’t know if he had heard about it, but I think it’s unlikely.
Clara M. Davis and the wisdom of letting children choose their own diets http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1626509/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1626509/)
Accordingly, Davis devised the experiment to let children do for themselves because she suspected that children's bodies instinctively “knew best” what the individual child should eat. Her intellectual model, a view that would later be called “the wisdom of the body,” likened a child's instinctive appetite to the way various autonomic body systems effortlessly adjust themselves to compensate for external challenges — think of sweating on a hot day, and breathing faster when you start to run.
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/tl-%27peter%27-cleave%27s-1956-instincto-like-%27natural-law%27/msg83768/#msg83768 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/tl-%27peter%27-cleave%27s-1956-instincto-like-%27natural-law%27/msg83768/#msg83768) Cleave’s work pointed out by PaleoPhil was also largely unnoticed.
GCB tells in his book http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggraw_eat1.html (http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggraw_eat1.html) that during a trip in US, he decided to eat raw for the duration of his short stay (beginning of part 1):
Perhaps you could begin by telling me how you started out on instinctotherapy?
o With a cabbage. A red cabbage, as it happened.
_Are you serious?
o Perfectly. I’m always serious.
It all started when I was on my last concert tour in the United States, in 1964. It was a two-month trip, with some 40-odd concerts in all the big towns on the East Coast. At the time, I still thought I was cut out to be a concert musician. You may know that Americans are bound by law to detail all the additives that go into their food.
Just imagine how hungry you might feel, knowing that you were purchasing daily a whole string of preservatives, flavor enhancers, coloring, emulsifiers, and fillers_all of which are well-known for their carcinogenic properties.
_Had you been ill at that point?
o I had indeed become very much alive to the problem. And so, rather than poison myself with dubious ingredients, I wisely decided to buy organically grown foods and do my own cooking in hotel rooms. I had taken along a burner to brew myself some tea, which soon proved hopeless, because the tap water was too chlorinated. At the time, it took me two to three cups of tea to be fighting fit for a concert. If I didn’t take a stimulant, I always felt stiff-jointed. At first I had imagined that I could at least cook myself some soup or some pasta, now and again, to supplement my pack-lunches. But the thing is, when I tried to plug into an American socket, I got the shock of my life from the current. I felt that to be a stroke of fate, so I decided to eat everything raw.
_Weren’t you afraid of feeling a bit weak without any hot food to sustain you? The cello is said to require a lot of stamina.
o Well, in fact, I noticed quite the reverse. Every time I had a well-cooked square meal before playing, I felt unfit, whereas when I only ate a little fruit, my playing was masterful. I usually made up for leeway on cream cakes at after-concert functions. I’d always had a sweet tooth!
I scouted out a health food store where I stocked up on quite a variety of fruit, honey in combs, avocados, a few vegetables, tomatoes, and that red cabbage of mine. I packed the whole business right next to my tailcoat, my white shirt, and my varnished shoes.
_I thought you were against mixing.
o Well, anyway, that’s how I was led to eat a 100% raw diet long enough to come to a strange conclusion: When I first tasted a leaf from my red cabbage, I found it delicious. My instant reaction was: “Those organic American red cabbages are tremendous; no need for salt, oil, and vinegar!” Only, the following day, when I tasted another leaf from the same cabbage, it had a sharp, unpleasant taste. A subsequent leaf tasted even worse. My first thought was, to account for such an abrupt change, that the poor old cabbage hadn’t put up with the trip and had gone bad on the way. Days later, I ventured a bite just to see whether it tasted any worse. And lo and behold, it tasted as good as it had on the very first day! So, I was wrong, the cabbage had obviously not rejuvenated. Clearly, the change had taken place in me and not in the cabbage.
Was my body guiding me into eating a food I needed or discarding one I didn’t; was it a kind of dietary instinct? I wrote to my wife right away, but the idea seemed far-fetched, and I forgot all about it when I returned home.
Some time later, the whole family joined by two friends (one of them I know very well) started to eat all raw. As a physicist, GCB is a very meticulous experimenter and observer (I found it out when he stayed a few months at my place). They started from scratch, questioning all the contemporary beliefs in nutrition and they set up a whole series of experiments on mice, other animals and themselves. I think one of their first findings was that our alimentary instinctive regulation works well enough with unprocessed stuff, but is severely hampered by cooked, spiced, processed and mixed stuff.
Luckily, after a while on 100% raw food, especially GCB himself started to get strong reactions when he eats something which is not ok and this helped a lot to identify the foods which should not be eaten. They came to suspect wheat as a troublesome food, and this was well confirmed with the mice experiments. At the time, they were vegetarians, because nobody around had ever thought that we could eat raw meat. I don’t know whether they ate eggs, we should ask him.
They drank milk from an organic farmer because the idea that milk isn’t a initial food had not yet emerged from anybody’s mind. But after some time, GCB started to suspect that something was wrong with that milk since every time he drank some, he had troubles. Thus, they bought a goat to have their own controlled source of perfect milk. Still it seemed to induce troubles and they also noticed that it doesn’t trigger any neat instinctive stop. Himself drank it by periods, perhaps one or two months with milk and one or two without. Then it was clear that it was milk which triggered problems, such as infections of wounds or even without apparent reasons.
It took some serious debate and thinking to find out the reason, until GCB realized that milk consumption could only have appeared after the domestication of animals, about 8000 years ago. So, they suppressed all milk from their diet and thus became vegan or almost.
Then…
That we should eat raw animal food was discovered instinctively, for fish by the eldest son of GCB who was 4 or 5 years old at the time and for meat a bit later by GCB himself: at the market and passing by the fishmonger stall, the son told his father: “dad, I wanna eat a fish, buy me a fish!”
The whole family had been eating raw for sometimes, but it had not come to their mind that we can and must eat raw fish and raw meat. So the father was rather surprised. Anyway, he bought a fish, gave it to his son who instantly gobbled it raw in front of the flabbergasted fishmonger! Sometime latter, the father passed by a butcher stall and was bewildered to be attracted by the smell of raw meat. He then introduced it raw on the family table and everyone found it appetizing.
(They started as) raw vegetarians. The first question was “No animal cook food, why are we cooking ?” And they started to eat all raw, instinctively, unmixed, unseasoned. They were still eating raw dairy (and perhaps raw eggs, but that I’m not sure), but for some periods GCB didn’t eat any dairy. When he started to have dairy again, he noticed that he got inflammations (for example around small wounds) and even that spontaneous infections appeared. He then thought that the milk they got from an organic farmer wasn't ok. So they bought a goat to have their own milk and to be sure of its quality. Still it caused inflammations and infections.
Then another question came: what’s wrong with the milk? It took him some time, some more experiments and some more thinking until he realized that no animal drinks the milk of another animal species and that that no animal drinks milk in adulthood. So, the next step was to suppress all dairy.
Having suppressed all or almost all sources of animal food, there’s no wonder it didn’t take long for raw fish and raw meat to become attractive!
All that was around 1964 – 1965. At the time, eating raw fish and raw meat was absolutely out of question for everyone in Switzerland. The fact that on the other side of the planet Pacific Islanders and Japaneses had always eaten raw fish without any problems was completely overlooked in Europe and W. A. Price work was almost unknown.
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Most interesting, thanks.
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An idea with seaweeds. Most, except some of the softer varieties are very difficult to digest, unless prolonged cooking is used. To avoid cooking, and aid in the digestion, I take Alaria, collected by Larch in Maine, best seaweed in the US, and I take a big hand full and freeze it, even though it's already dried. That decreases almost all water content. Then I blend it in my vitamix. But first I put the blender portion and lid in the freezer, so that I cold blend it. It almost comes out like a powder. I eat two to three heaping teaspoons a day. It is wonderful with a bit of shredded coconut and coconut oil. I eat this on an empty stomach. I tend to experience and believe that it is so alkaline that it impedes digestion of raw meat, in that it can neutralize stomach acids. One can chew dried alaria for 'hours' in the mouth and still have a wad to chew. I would like to stone cold grind the blended material to make a fine powder, like the powder that sticks to the blender lid and walls. That simply melts in your mouth. I keep the blended powder in a small jar and in the fridge. I make it every three days or so. So much better tasting than Kale etc..
Aren't Larch's seaweeds the bomb Van! I do almost what you do - except I don't freeze. I just put all their seaweeds that come in their awesome family pack into my blendtec. I make it once and it's been lasting forever. It's not a fine powder that comes out - but just fine for my purposes. I've been putting some in water with lemon and drinking - YUM. Is there a reason why you think you have to do it every three days instead of just making a big batch all at once like I do? I also use this as a supplement for my chickens.
I wonder what freezing does to it if anything. Does anyone have any guesses if freezing would deplete or degrade anything?
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Dorothy, hi, I don't think freezing does any real harm here, since the 90% of the water has already been removed, hence there is no cell bursting when I freeze it. This only serves to remove the rest of the water, so that it powders easier. I make it every three days since I don't want it oxidizing (even in the fridge). Blending or powderizing it exposes it to lots of oxygen. Freezing the blender jar at least keeps the temp low while blending. If I was to suggest to Larch to make this a product, which I'm considering, I would suggest that he vacuum seal or nitrogen flush small batches, and instruct buyers to store in fridge or freezer. I really think that when it gets closer to talcum powder or baby powder in consistency, that's when It's easier to digest and doesn't just pass through you. I too use to soak the whole seawead in water, and drink that, and then juice the seaweed remains, but always felt as though I was throwing too much away, as in pulp, even though it went to the ducks. They get Larch's fertilizer/animal seaweed anyway. That's when I went to powdering it and consuming the whole product. Plus as I mentioned, I think it's amazing for the bowels, and intestinal flora. And right now it's really my only vegetable source. I love the idea that it's never been hyberdized, has the perfect balance of minerals, has no antinutrients,
and tastes great. Have you tried it with shredded fresh coconut or coconut oil? I still like to eat it first thing before the first of my two main meals and an hour before my second. It curbs the appetite slightly, and satisfies, but never raises blood sugar. Any other thoughts,, let me know. Van
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Hey Van. I'll try freezing and powdering some like you suggested. My blending creates small enough chunks so that when I put it on or in my food I don't notice it at all and in the water it mostly dissolves - but it's not a fine powder so there are leftovers. Usually I would think that when you get something down to that kind of a find powder the oxidation would be more no? My tiny hunks work nicely, mostly like finely chopped, but I'm certainly open to suggestions on how to make it better.
I'm not such a big fan of coconut oil except for on my skin. I can't imagine it being that great with the ground seaweed I make, but I will definitely try it with the powder when I try that. I like the idea of taking it before meals as you said. You do seem to eat a lot of it. I've never had that much in a day. Might be an interesting experiment.
The family pack is so immense with such savings for buying in such bulk and according to Larch only is good for a year so I have no trouble with the waste as I find putting any leftovers of the soaked seaweed into my vegetable garden as just one more great reason to buy the stuff. It's simply wonderful for my garden - especially in the summer.
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They posts about fertilizing the soil have been transferred here:
How to fertilize the soil (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/how-to-fertilize-the-soil/)
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Good choice Iguana to move that sideline discussion. Thank you.
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So, then low sugar vegetables are ok, but… Where is the limit between low sugar and high sugar?
Carb intake on ketogenic diets lies usually between zero and 80 grams per day, dependant on the types of fats that are used. MCTs lead to higher ketone levels.
For your info, the “instincto” is not “sugar based”.
Defacto it is,
at least in all cases I have seen in Germany and France.
You must be talking about vegetarians or almost vegetarians calling themselves ”instinctos”.
No.
Still go tacking in search of your way from the greatest thing on Earth to another opposed greatest thing? Ok, please let us know your results when you’ll have some years of steady experimenting consistently on the same diet, without always changing your ideas and practice.
Take it easy, Iguana.
I'm on a raw low carb diet for many years.
What I'm doing is finetuning this diet between ZC and low carb. Ketosis brings some amazing benefits.
Obviously you are unable to discuss anything beside your inctincto religion which is based on nonsense and ignorance in many regards. For example, it's very naive to believe that our body shows reliable instinctive feedback signals when we eat artificial foods that have never been part of human nutrition, overbred fructose bombs like apples and pears for example. If you feel such "instinctive stop" at all you have already eaten way too much of this damaging substance. Fructose is addictive and it's 20-30 times more glycating than glucose. And it's a particularly bad idea to eat overbred, tropical high sugar fruits frequently during winter times in northern countries. This was common practice amongst "instinctos" and the primary cause of their health troubles, including massive mental problems, besides "instinctive" overconsumption of nuts and seeds. Complete ignorance of the science about fructose, glycation, w6 fats, our dietary past and ketogenic diets is another principal characteristic of the instincto drivel.
Löwenherz
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Löwenherz
why did you cut coconut out?
What are your fat sources now?
Do you consume any plant food at all at the moment?
Hi Elefant,
I have the feeling that animal fats are better on strict ketogenic diets. And I like it to eat 100% locally. Fats come mainly from beef and wild boar.
At the moment I eat no plant foods.. Organs are very important.
Löwenherz
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Personally, LWZ, I have found that the Instincto principles do actually work most of the time, PROVIDED one doesn't eat any cooked, processed foods. Consuming the latter gives unnatural cravings which can only be avoided by a seasoned person who can tell the difference between unnatural cravings and genuine desires.
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Lowenherz - in an above post you said that Instinctos suffer from "massive mental problems". That's a big accusation to make - can you back that up with proof or at least some examples - anything? Who specifically are you speaking of? If instinctos have suffered massive mental problems on the diet that is indeed important to know, but if it's innuendo or just some rumor then not too cool. I would like to know more specifically what you are referring to here please.
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Iguana, you are a nice guy. I would like to emphasize that my harsh "instincto" criticism is certainly not meant personally in any way.
BUT the word "instincto" always reminds me of the most absurd (!) scenes, regarding nutrition, lifestyle and social behaviour, I have ever seen. Really. Highlights in this regard were my visits at Montramé in France many years ago.
In my view, your "instincto" diet is working for you (if it is) because you are not eating really "instinctively". How could it ever be instinctive to wait x minutes after eating food from group A before eating food from group B? As an example from your practice. I remember very well how all "instinctos" I met tried to apply an immense number of "absolutely necessary" defacto non-instinctive "instincto"-rules like food combining, eating cassia every morning to "detox", certain times for drinking, sniffing at countless foods from countless origins at fixed (!) times during the day, forced eating of animal foods if only fruit is smelling good for x days etc. They all failed.
So, I stop talking about "instincto" now.
Löwenherz
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Lowenherz - in an above post you said that Instinctos suffer from "massive mental problems". That's a big accusation to make - can you back that up with proof or at least some examples - anything?
Of course Dorothy. But the names of the people would be of no use for you. You would have to ask them personally. All of them realized after some time that they have to drastically, non-instinctively cut back the amount of fruit sugar and seeds in their diet to avoid problems, more and more the older they became.
BTW: In Germany the "instincto" - movement is long dead. And vegan raw foodism, called "Rohkost", was never confused with "instincto" here, as Tyler thought.
Löwenherz
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Of course Dorothy. But the names of the people would be of no use for you. You would have to ask them personally. All of them realized after some time that they have to drastically, non-instinctively cut back the amount of fruit sugar and seeds in their diet to avoid problems, more and more the older they became.
BTW: In Germany the "instincto" - movement is long dead. And vegan raw foodism, called "Rohkost", was never confused with "instincto" here, as Tyler thought.
Löwenherz
Fair enough. Can I ask at least approximately how many people or percentage of the people doing instincto that you met had mental problems and of what kind? I take such claims and observations seriously as it was what I noticed about the low fat vegans in general that I had contact with that made me stop and think deeply on that approach - and then even to re-think veganism itself even though it did not seem to have the same negative effects on me. I like hearing of other people's general impressions and central nervous system health is the prime reason I have turned towards raw paleo.
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LWZ is talking nonsense. "Rohkost" is often routinely confused with "Instinkto", both online and offline. And I reckon more people are following Instincto than suggested. At least judging from past forums I've seen. Plus, food-combining is unnecessary. I've found I digest much easier if I stick to one type of food at a time. Same happens in Nature, more or less. I don't see raw omnivorous animals like bears necessarily eating raw plants immediately after a kill of wild salmon etc.
*What truly amazed me was one recent photo Iguana showed of GCB, in which GCB noticeably looked much younger than Aajonus despite being much older than him, and having had to, unfairly, suffer a prison-sentence a while back wherein, presumably, he was forced to eat cooked rubbish. To me, that's disgraceful. I mean being convicted is one thing, but being deprived of natural sunlight and reasonably good food is unbearable, to say the least.*
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What truly amazed me was one recent photo Iguana showed of GCB, in which GCB noticeably looked much younger than Aajonus despite being much older than him...
Where is the photo, please? Or just a recent photo of GCB?
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Where is the photo, please? Or just a recent photo of GCB?
Can't remember which thread. PM Iguana for the photo. It showed GCB at a dinner-table, as I recall.
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Iguana would you please post that picture here for all of us? Thanks.
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GCB at lunch time in October 2009.
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In my view, your "instincto" diet is working for you (if it is) because you are not eating really "instinctively". How could it ever be instinctive to wait x minutes after eating food from group A before eating food from group B? As an example from your practice. I remember very well how all "instinctos" I met tried to apply an immense number of "absolutely necessary" defacto non-instinctive "instincto"-rules like food combining, eating cassia every morning to "detox", certain times for drinking, sniffing at countless foods from countless origins at fixed (!) times during the day, forced eating of animal foods if only fruit is smelling good for x days etc. They all failed.
We’ve never pretended that in a modern life we can regulate everything instinctively! More often than not, you’ve got to go to work and thus have only a lunch time break, so you can’t eat whenever you want. In nature you can’t neither eat as soon as you wake up: you must first move around in search for food. Once you finally have found something edible or caught a prey, only then you can eat. Then if still hungry, you’ll have to find something else and it’s likely to require more time and effort.
You have to be somewhat crazy or at least passionate to deviate so much from the standard by eating everything raw. Hence, there are many “instinctos” who are totally crazy. Instinctive raw paleo nutrition doesn’t cure idiocy. A lot of people on so called “instincto” are stupid enough to take flexible advices aimed at beginners for absolute, fixed rules. The ordinary educational system (and religion even more so) favors beliefs in what is taught instead of urging to question everything and allways ask the how and why as GCB used to insistently plead in his seminars. Leaving a comfortable, somehow religious, system of beliefs in view to reach a scientific way of thinking is too much of a hard change for most people who are neither unable to think by themselves nor systematically use the methodical doubt as we should.
All the "absolutely necessary" defacto non-instinctive "instincto"-rules you cite are, of course, nothing more than (bendable) advices for beginners embedded in our modern world and having survived on a standard cooked diet during decades. Confusing those suggestions with absolute rules is stupid. Taking them as an intrinsic part of the theory is even more stupid.
Obviously you are unable to discuss anything beside your inctincto religion which is based on nonsense and ignorance in many regards.
Yes, we are absolutely ignorant, as our pre-fire ancestors were and as animals are! It’s a great mistake to think that mankind is largely superior to all animals and that our knowledge is comprehensive enough to allow us to know what and how much to eat of each stuff — notwithstanding how to interact with nature and the universe in general. Modern humans are awfully pretentious.
Concerning my religion, I already stated that I’m the one and only John Frum (a variant of the Cargo Cult) (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/spirituality/religion/msg47378/#msg47378.) worshiper outside the island of Tana, Vanuatu. LOL ;) ;D
For example, it's very naive to believe that our body shows reliable instinctive feedback signals when we eat artificial foods that have never been part of human nutrition, overbred fructose bombs like apples and pears for example.
Ever since the beginning of the experiment, around 1965, the question has been to determine with which foodstuffs our alimentary instinct works and how well it works. Of course, it works better with wild stuffs. Nevertheless it hasn’t been found out that apples are atom bombs. ;D
François
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Iguana, thank you for the pictures. How old was GCB in 2009? Does he have any illness?
Will you say that he eats much fruit?
GCB considers much land-animal food as not optimal, right? So does he favor more seafood than land-animal food?
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Iguana, thank you for the pictures. How old was GCB in 2009? Does he have any illness?
According to Wikipedia, he was born the on Septembre 4, 1934 at Lausanne in Switzerland (also my home town), so he is 78 years old.
In general, he eats fruits only for lunch and an animal food first at dinner. Some years ago he experimented to eat one single stuff per meal and several meals per day, but he found out better for him to eat twice a day only. Most of us do it that way but a few have it the second way, or anything in-between.
GCB considers much land-animal food as not optimal, right? So does he favor more seafood than land-animal food?
He considers some land animals food necessary, at least sometimes, and an animal stuff about everyday, be it meat and/or organs, fish, shellfish or eggs. He thinks we may tend to eat too much mammals' meat and not enough insects — as a matter of fact we most often don't eat any at all and perhaps it could be essential to have some.
AFAIK he has no illness and he is in perfect health.
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Thanks for the pictures Iguana. GCB in the pictures does put out a sense of vitality - especially for the age of 78! The interesting thing is that the lighting isn't even very good as it is lighting him from above so you can't see his eyes well. That usually makes people look worse. The picture also obviously has not been retouched with that shadow of the clothesline running through his face. ;) Looks like an authentic amateur shot taken of him having a late morning, early afternoon meal at his leisure and like he was even a little surprised. He also doesn't "appear" to be a man with "massive mental problems" - and neither do you from your writings here at the forum Iguana. Have you known GCB long Iguana? What is your impression of his mental state?
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Oh, you are a really sharp observer! I hadn’t noticed the shadow of the clothesline trough his face! The amateur who took the picture is myself… BTW I read how you observed AV was lying when he told his story of the coyotes feeding him. I had just the same feeling when reading that story.
So, the first time I saw GCB was in 1973 when he and his wife Nicole explained for the first time publicly their findings during a lecture in Lausanne. But I was young at the time and even if what was said seemed logic (though somewhat eccentric) I wasn’t ready to eat all raw. Then, in 1987 I followed some of his seminars when I decided to try the “instincto way" after reading his book. His friends Jean-Daniel and wife (living 20 km only from my place at the time) became friends of mine and through them, GCB and I knew more about each other and we became friends as well. As one of the first pioneers, JD told me a lot about how the whole thing was developed at the beginning with his close involvement.
No, GCB doesn’t have any "massive mental problems" and I hope I don’t… but Löwenherz is right to some extent: I know a few "full or half instinctos” who always had such problems (even when on cooked diet) and aren’t cured by the diet! >: I didn't like either the atmosphere at Montramé, especially after Nicole and GCB were no longer there. To get back to him, he’s a man with a strong personality, an idealist little concerned neither by practicalities in life nor by money.
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Iguana, good that we have a member here who has first-hand knowledge of GCB.
What is GCB's consumption of fat versus carbo? A good number of members here promote eating much fat. I do not find I have a big appetite for fat. In fact, since I try to go instincto (i.e., no mixing of food items and no spices), I have close to zero appetite for raw unadulterated animal fat. So I am interested in knowing GCB's idea (and your idea) on fat consumption versus carbo.
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Fair enough. Can I ask at least approximately how many people or percentage of the people doing instincto that you met had mental problems and of what kind? I take such claims and observations seriously as it was what I noticed about the low fat vegans in general that I had contact with that made me stop and think deeply on that approach - and then even to re-think veganism itself even though it did not seem to have the same negative effects on me. I like hearing of other people's general impressions and central nervous system health is the prime reason I have turned towards raw paleo.
Nearly all of them showed signs of heavy mood disorders. For example: Many felt euphoric for a short time after they ate a huge pile of (overbred) Thai durian. They called it "himmlische Phase" (a translation could be "divine pleasure"). Their guru provided them with many such curious phrases. Half a day later these people were not seldom depressed and introverted. Beside teeth problems, digestive troubles, especially with fats, were common. Aajonus Vonderplanitz has written about this problem in his two books. He observed that high amounts of fruit sugar impairs our digestion of proteins and fats. Nearly all "instinctos" I have seen were very emaciated. They felt a deep disharmony in their life and usually thought that we are actually fruit eating apes from the tropics. The "instinctos" I met in Sri Lanka all ate huge amounts of sugary fruits and got massive health problems like staph infections.
A major topic in the"instincto" movement were the sexual teaching and practice (sex with children) of their guru and some of his followers. Many were skeptical but didn't want to talk about it.
Löwenherz
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LWZ is talking nonsense. "Rohkost" is often routinely confused with "Instinkto", both online and offline.
Tyler, I don't know where you live and where you got such false impressions. In Germany, in most cases "Rohkost" stands for vegan raw foodism. In the last two decades the scene was heavily influenced by two authors, Helmut Wandmaker and Franz Konz, both vegan. Beside them, in the years 1998 - 2004 the books of Norman Walker were found in the shelves of every german bookstore. Organisations like BFG e.V. (the biggest one) are strongly and hysterically against the consumption of any animal food.
*What truly amazed me was one recent photo Iguana showed of GCB, in which GCB noticeably looked much younger than Aajonus despite being much older than him, and having had to, unfairly, suffer a prison-sentence a while back wherein, presumably, he was forced to eat cooked rubbish.
What do you mean with "unfairly"?
Löwenherz
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I like hearing of other people's general impressions and central nervous system health is the prime reason I have turned towards raw paleo.
Dorothy, if you are interested in central nervous system health the books and articles about ketogenic diets from neurofeedback specialist Nora Gedgaudas could be an very interesting read for you.
"Primal Body, Primal Mind: Beyond the Paleo Diet for Total Health and a Longer Life":
http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Body-Mind-Beyond-Health/dp/1594774137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351929676&sr=8-1&keywords=gedgaudas (http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Body-Mind-Beyond-Health/dp/1594774137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351929676&sr=8-1&keywords=gedgaudas)
Löwenherz
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Look, I have previously trawled German forums, instinkto or otherwise, where the terms "instinkto" and "rohkost" were interchangeably used. "Rohkost" doesn't even have to be 100% raw vegan, as a minority include raw eggs and raw dairy within that term.
As for "unfairly", I do not view being deprived of sunlight and good food as being part of a prison-sentence. Being locked up is one thing, but other stuff designed to kill you off at an earlier age is not acceptable.
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"Rohkost" doesn't even have to be 100% raw vegan, as a minority include raw eggs and raw dairy within that term.
That's true, of course. I said that "Rohkost" is vegan in MOST cases. The whole vegan scene thrives on newcomers.. A very unreliable business model. tsss.
As for "unfairly", I do not view being deprived of sunlight and good food as being part of a prison-sentence. Being locked up is one thing, but other stuff designed to kill you off at an earlier age is not acceptable.
OK.
Löwenherz
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@Tyler - so you don't believe this woman who says Jimmy had his hand up her dress on live TV?
Jimmy Savile molests girl live on Top Of The Pops 1976 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxy1Lyw7U20#)
Back on topic - every known human tribe that has access to vegetables/greens consumes them, it is only when the environment deprives people of plant foods that they eat exclusively animal foods (such as in ice covered regions). So why would you want to do without vegetables/greens?
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Hi all!
This is a very interesting discussion and Id like to share my view on this.
Ive tried eating all meat diets, Ive eaten high fruit, Ive eaten a mix etc etc etc.
While trying all this Ive been very observing about my emotions and the link between digestion.
For me there seems to be a very clear link between the two.
I feel like raw egg yolk raises my stomach acid which helps with cleaning out bad fats and other toxins.
But to get this out of the stomach/colon I felt that it needed some pressure (to raise body temperature) which had the effect of getting some dhiarrea and farting (in my opinion cleaning effects). Eating lots of meat gave me this pressure and in that way it speed up the cleaning process. I also felt that eating lots of meat is hard to digest and after a few days made me feel depressed. Than I added fibre from fruits (like bananas) and the meat would come out and I would feel better.
Repeating this process cleans out the body which results in very low body fat percentage and being vascular.
The leaner I get I notice that just eating raw egg yolks is very good on its own and it feels like its the best thing to just go on just these yolks. I think this is because theres no more bad fats blocking my stomach and intestines and this way the yolk can flow.
So, my believe is that a pure cholesterol diet from eggs (whether is chicken or fish or whatever) is perfect for us. But first we need to have a clean digestive system.
When thinking about how we must have gotten food thousands of years ago it makes sense since its easier to eat an egg than to hunt down an animal and cut it open etc.
Id like to point out that I do not imply to have the truth, but this is just my "weird" experience and view.
WK.
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Dorothy, if you are interested in central nervous system health the books and articles about ketogenic diets from neurofeedback specialist Nora Gedgaudas could be an very interesting read for you.
"Primal Body, Primal Mind: Beyond the Paleo Diet for Total Health and a Longer Life":
http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Body-Mind-Beyond-Health/dp/1594774137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351929676&sr=8-1&keywords=gedgaudas (http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Body-Mind-Beyond-Health/dp/1594774137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351929676&sr=8-1&keywords=gedgaudas)
Löwenherz
I'll check it out. Thanks!
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Posts related to "metasexuality" have been moved here. (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/re-can-we-do-without-vegetablesgreens/)
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Dorothy, if you are interested in central nervous system health the books and articles about ketogenic diets from neurofeedback specialist Nora Gedgaudas could be an very interesting read for you...
I second this recommendation. When someone asks for a book recommendation focused on diet, this is the book I recommend to them. More balanced than typical Paleo Diet books from Loren Cordain, less commercialized than Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint, and more current than Nourishing Traditions. We're organizing a health conference in my area in June of 2013, and Nora Gedgaudas accepted our invitation and will be speaking. Sally Fallon will be here too, as will a couple other high-profile speakers.
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I second this recommendation. When someone asks for a book recommendation focused on diet, this is the book I recommend to them. More balanced than typical Paleo Diet books from Loren Cordain, less commercialized than Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint, and more current than Nourishing Traditions. We're organizing a health conference in my area in June of 2013, and Nora Gedgaudas accepted our invitation and will be speaking. Sally Fallon will be here too, as will a couple other high-profile speakers.
Eric, where are you in the US just in case someone catches this and wants to attend?
Thanks for the book review! I read over the contents and I'm betting that most of it is old hat to me so I put a hold on a copy at my library. There are a couple of chapters, like the one on the nervous system that could hold something of interest. I was also thinking that it might be quite a good introductory book to suggest to others - but I was wondering how she approached raw versus cooked? Is it a cooked paleo kind of book or a raw paleo kind of book?
I got Nourishing Traditions out the library and copied the few things that related to raw. Perhaps worth the entire book for those few recipes and ideas but a photocopy of a few pages was really I needed.
I love libraries! :D
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I live in Burlington, VT and the workshop I'm helping to plan will be held in and around this city.
Nora Gedgaudas' book isn't strictly cooked or raw, but she puts in more than a few plugs for eating foods, including animal foods, raw.
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i agree with löwenherz about the fruit issue. during my two years on a mostly raw vegan/vegetarian diet i've eaten about 6-8 servings of fruit per day which is not much more than what many consider "healthy" and i'm sure it would have ruined my health if i hadn't switched to (raw) paleo earlier this year.
one thing i noticed was that i got a lot of moles but at the time had no idea they were a result of the sugar from fruits (the fructose content, most likely) - AGEs that are visible and which i hope will eventually fade or perhaps disappear altogether again.
during summer i've still eaten fruit, a serving of berries from my garden each day, but at the moment i don't consume any fruits, or anything sweet for that matter, and i don't feel that i need it.
nevertheless it seems that a limited amount of raw or fermented veggies is good for me. i eat about 300-400g sauerkraut every day and the occasional salad with lettuce, cucumber, 1-2 carrots, onion, feta cheese, flax oil and spices. no tomatoes or other nightshade plants, though, because of the lectins and other antinutrients.
i feel good on this diet but i don't know if i'm ever in ketosis. i don't really consume any carbs except the small amount that's left in the aforementioned veggies and perhaps in kefir but i'm probably eating too much protein for my own good (about 100-120g/day) and afaik 58% of all protein is metabolized into glucose, always, which would disrupt ketosis as surely as carbs, just a little later.
i have a request. could those of you who have found their ideal diet please describe it briefly and include their blood type? i'm type A and it's said that those with bloodtype A do best on a vegetarian diet but shouldn't consume dairy. well, that's almost vegan and that didn't work for me. i'm concerned about milk/kefir and would like to know if there are others with type A who do well with dairy in their diet or not at all. supposedly there are certain proteins in milk that are similar to bloodtype B and cause blood clotting in type A. don't know if there's any truth in this but i'm curious.
@löwenherz - do you know any sources in germany where i can buy grass-fed organ meats and glands? apart from liver i've had no luck so far.
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i don't really consume any carbs except the small amount that's left in the aforementioned veggies and perhaps in kefir but i'm probably eating too much protein for my own good (about 100-120g/day) and afaik 58% of all protein is metabolized into glucose, always, which would disrupt ketosis as surely as carbs, just a little later.
Are you saying you eat 100-120 grams of protein per day? That's like 4-5 oz of protein per day.
Does anyone else feel that's a very small amount of protein per day?
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Are you saying you eat 100-120 grams of protein per day? That's like 4-5 oz of protein per day.
Does anyone else feel that's a very small amount of protein per day?
No, that sounds like just right, and maybe a bit much if you're not so active.
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No, that sounds like just right, and maybe a bit much if you're not so active.
Is that specifically if you're LC, VLC, or ZC?
I eat 8-12 oz of meat per day, 4.5 oz of suet, and about 120 grams of carbs per day when I'm fully RPD.
Am I eating to much protein? I feel like 8 oz isn't enough, and 4 is nowhere neat enough.
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Are you saying you eat 100-120 grams of protein per day? That's like 4-5 oz of protein per day.
Does anyone else feel that's a very small amount of protein per day?
That sounds about right for an average-sized adult who isn't too active, assuming that when you say 'protein' you actually mean the wet weight of the muscle tissue, which is mostly water. Someone who is more active might eat 6-8 ounces of muscle tissue each day, but any more than that is eating excess protein that your body will turn into sugar to store, effectively turning a high-protein diet into a high-carb diet.
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8 ounces=0.22 kilos. Hmm, I've been eating way more meat a day and not had any issues. I've always suspected that the "too much protein" theory was dead-wrong.
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Protein weight does not equal meat weight, as has been mentioned. Rough estimate is that 100g muscle meat (lean portion) contains 20g protein.
A conservative estimate of protein need might be 170pound/75kg person needs around 60g protein per day. That translates to 300g/10oz of lean muscle meat. More protein might be called for in some circumstances, but wa-a-ay more protein is wasteful.
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Well, er, 200g protein or less a day is my usual then, and still hasn't harmed me.
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re my protein intake - usually i eat about 300g lean meat (beef or wild game) in the evening + 250g jogurt and during the day a liter kefir and perhaps 50g raw butter. i'd say that's approx. 75g protein from the meat and 45g protein from the dairy products - total 120g. my current weight is 70kg with about 20% body fat so lean weight 56kg which means about 56g protein/day would be ideal.
my job is mostly office work but i'm doing hit (resistance) and hiit (sprint 8 ) exercise in turns every 2-3 days, usually 20min workouts so i'm reasonably "active". despite that my metabolism is very low (i don't have hypothyroidism, low basal temp or anything) and i'm almost never hungry except maybe after a full day w/o food. i guess that's one of the few leftover benefits from my raw vegan days, i last a long time with little food.
the book "primal body, primal mind" has been recommended by several people here and i agree, it's probably the most comprehensive book about nutrition available right now. the author insists that protein intake should be moderate (like 1g/kg body weight) so as not to activate the mtor pathway, which would basically force cells to replicate instead of merely making repairs (ori hofmekler also wrote about this and explains it in interviews). since cells can't replicate indefinitely what this means is that a high protein intake shortens the lifespan of your cells and thus your body. that's probably the reason why "starvation diets" are said to expand lifespans such as when rats that were fed only 50% lived almost twice as long as those who could eat as much as they wanted.
anyway, i've just read one of peter d'adamo's bloodtype diet books and i'm going to try two things in the coming weeks. one is eliminating the dairy products and the other is eliminating the raw meat. he claims that blood type A should not eat meat and only fermented dairy products. i'm trying to find out if that's true because i need to get rid of two issues which have developed only after i started eating raw meat and drinking kefir (unfortunately i started both almost simultaneously) - a minor (but apparently increasing) case of acne and occasional lower back pain which i think comes from overtaxed kidneys. if dr. d'adamo is right and the lectins in either dairy or meat (or both) agglutinate in type A blood i should notice improvement of both conditions upon eliminating either one or the other food (or both if the kidneys and skin don't improve unless i drop both). if he's indeed right i guess i have a problem because apart from these two minor (so far) problems i feel much better, stronger and more energized than on a vegetarian diet and can't imagine going back. there has to be another way.
if any type A has had similar problems and found a solution please post it!
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here are two links to peter d'adamo's site. according to this i should be able to keep the kefir but have to elimiante the meat.
http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?212 (http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?212) (kefir - NEUTRAL)
http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?469 (http://www.dadamo.com/typebase4/depictor5.pl?469) (beef - AVOID: Secretory insufficiency. Induces dysbiosis. Increases polyamine or indican levels. Inhibits proper gastric function or blocks assimilation.)
tyler, i don't know your blood type but based on d'adamo's research and your problems with dairy i'd say you're type O. is that right?
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Adamo's blood type diet is a con:-
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/NegativeBR/d%27adamo.html (http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/NegativeBR/d%27adamo.html)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_diet#Scientific_criticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type_diet#Scientific_criticism)
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tyler, i don't know your blood type but based on d'adamo's research and your problems with dairy i'd say you're type O. is that right?
Yes, except for the fact that more people are type O than otherwise, and most people with other blood-types tend to find adamo's ideas do not work for them at all. His type O diagnosis only works because it is palaeo-oriented.
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Being a raw paleo site Bio - I think most people here would suggest getting rid of the dairy instead and increasing your raw fat and organ intake. So many people have trouble with dairy that it seems like it would be the most likely candidate for the acne. I'm gathering that your meat is all grass-fed right? I might have missed it but I didn't catch you talking about your fat and/or organ meat intake. Just that could effect how your body handles the muscle meat I would think.
The blood type diet is one I didn't try, but I can't help why you would want to try that before trying raw paleo?
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dorothy, i'm eating a primal diet right now. i started with cooked meat 5 months ago and went all raw about 6 weeks ago. the acne and back pain problems started about 2 or 3 weeks into the raw phase. during the months prior to it when i cooked the meat i didn't have these problems, most likely because most of these lectins got denatured or whatever. during that time i was already drinking raw milk, though no kefir. based on the blood type theory that should have created more problems than kefir but didn't. of course i don't want to go back and eat cooked meat but maybe i really don't digest raw meat very well.
one possibility could be that the AGEs that are formed during cooking are actually these lectins binding to glucose receptors in cells, thus getting inactivated. however, if eaten raw and there's some incompatibility with the blood type, the meat lectins would all still be there to attach to glucose receptors in the gut lining (which exist in a form that allows binding only with certain blood types such as A), destroying it, making it leaky, creating inflammation and so on, which then creates further problems elsewhere, not unlike gluten. any ideas on this?
in terms of fat i'm currently limited to butter (a no no according to the blood type diet, who would have thought?), flax oil and the little fat that's on the beef. i don't eat fatty/organ meats right now because i can't find any raw grass fed ones here in germany (hence my question to löwenherz). all i can order online is muscle meat or liver. i've asked butchers around here if they sell organs when hunters bring in their game but was told that usually they keep the organs for themselves and, if anything, sell some of the meat.
i've tried to buy indican test strips online but couldn't find any. that test would indicate if i don't digest animal proteins properly. maybe i can get some from a doctor, otherwise elimination seems to be the only way to find out what's up. i'm actually doing very well on the primal diet. i have no apparent digestive problems and my muscles keep increasing in size and strength at a nice rate but as long as these two problems (well, and dark circles under the eyes) exist there's still work to be done. i really thought raw paleo would finally be the right diet for me but it looks like i have to keep experimenting.
tyler, thanks for the links! i'm going to check them out now. i really hope you're right and he's wrong ;D
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The dark circles under the eyes and back pain in the center does point to possible kidney issues popping up. It's interesting that you ate just as much cooked meat before and didn't have the problem, but then when eating it raw did! Besides adding the kefir to your milk repertoire, was that the only change?
I'd like to point out something that I think many don't take into account. When you are starting a change in diet sometimes there can be coincidences. Some reactions can take a while to build up and if you are changing things over weeks time instead of many months or years the change in what is being eaten can be mistakenly taken as the cause when it is actually something that has been building from another source or is a coincidence or an infection or detox symptom.
So, I caution you to be careful with assumptions regarding causality when you have been experimenting for such a short time. That being said, your assumption atm is the most likely correct one because of the correspondence - but it is wise to keep an open mind and do your experimenting on yourself with the understanding that your experimentation is by it's nature flawed with only one test subject for such a short period of time.
I have assumptions that I have made regarding generally the superiority of raw foods to cooked ones from my own experiences and what I have heard reported here generally so if it were me, I think before trying cooked meat again what I would do first is just cut down the amount of meat being eaten as a whole especially when you don't have access to the amount of fats and organs that so many here have reported to be important when balancing the proteins. I know for myself that I need to eat an inordinate amount of fat to balance muscle meats and do well at all with them. If the nature of the cooked meats and how it interacts with your system works at a certain amount of meat, it does not necessarily mean that the same amount of raw meat will necessarily react in the same way and therefore it might be a question of amount or degree rather than returning to cooked. It might be better to eat just a small amount of raw meat with your limited fat and organs than to return to cooked meat.... but it is my guess, and it is certainly just a guess... that eating less raw meat, more fat with your butter (and maybe you can get some avocados etc. for more fats) might be all that is necessary and worth a shot. Since you are on the primal diet do you also drink fresh juices and eat one fruit a day? How about eggs? How do those seem to effect you?
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one possibility could be that the AGEs that are formed during cooking are actually these lectins binding to glucose receptors in cells, thus getting inactivated. however, if eaten raw and there's some incompatibility with the blood type, the meat lectins would all still be there to attach to glucose receptors in the gut lining (which exist in a form that allows binding only with certain blood types such as A), destroying it, making it leaky, creating inflammation and so on, which then creates further problems elsewhere, not unlike gluten. any ideas on this?
i've thought a bit more about the above. maybe someone can comment on this and lmk if i'm right or wrong:
- when sugar molecules bind to protein molecules in cell walls in an unwanted fashion (without the help of enzymes - called glycation) this creates AGEs
- lectins are proteins that bind to sugar molecules in cell walls (let's call it "lectination" for sake of argument), creating a similar end result - AGEs
- AGEs are formed when food is heated
- lectins are (partially or mostly) inactivated when food is heated
- so the reason for the creation of AGEs by heating food, meat in this case, is that lectins bind to sugar molecules in cell walls, since there's no actual sugar in meat (except as glycogen in muscle meat or liver but as mentioned before the end result is the same anyway)
- most, if not all, people don't experience acute reactions to heated foods, even if incompatible to their blood type
- most, if not all, people experience chronic symptoms / degeneration / inflammation after long-term exposure to foods that are incompatible to their blood type (a good example would be gluten which is more or less harmful for every human)
- many people experience more or less acute reactions if food that's incompatible to their blood type is eaten raw (some might call it allergic reactions)
- conclusion: the reason why wrong foods that are heated only create problems after long-term exposure is because most lectins are inactivated outside the body, during the heating process. that forms AGEs which are certainly harmful in excess and in the long run but prevents "lectination" in the gut
bottom line is that, unless one eats only raw foods that are compatible with one's blood type, it's better to eat incompatible foods heated, where most of the lectins are already deactivated before ingestion, instead of eating these foods raw where all the lectins are still active and create havoc with the intestinal lining. in my case (blood type A) this would explain why i react with acne and possibly kidney problems to raw meat but not to cooked meat.
case in point, doesn't aajonus eat raw honey together with raw butter or eggs or milk or something? maybe there are sugar molecules in honey to which most of the lectins in these protein foods can bind, thus getting inactivated. this would reduce the damage to the gut lining considerably.
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dorothy, thanks for your comment. i'll definitely keep an open mind but as you can see in my previous post, it could very well be the case that while raw food is indeed the most healthy, it can also be the most detrimental if one is incompatible to it. for me my explanation makes sense. i'd like to know how others think about it.
as regards the amount of raw vs cooked meat, i've considered this too because the raw meat protein would be undenatured and thus more bioavailable but i'm already consuming much less than most others here. i believe it would just reduce the negative effects but not prevent them.
as for eggs, i've tried raw eggs and had similar but even more immediate reactions to them as far as acne goes. apparently my body tries to detoxify unwanted animal protein complexes mainly via the skin, be it eggs, meat or perhaps even dairy.
i'll keep eating butter for the time being because the coconut oil experiment didn't turn out too well either, and because i can't stand the taste of avocados or olives. as far as raw food goes, i guess i'll just have to try some of the foods the blood type doctor recommends for type A, ignoring the obviously unhealthy ones such as grains or soy, and see how that works. i'd like to keep eating low carb but under these conditions and provided i stay 100% raw it will be almost impossible to not raise the amount of carbs to, imo, unhealthy levels. type B or O don't have these problems on a raw paleo or a primal diet, they can either up their dairy (B) or meat intake (O) but type A just doesn't seem to be suited to either one. i could try fish but since our oceans are deliberately being poisoned that would create other problems in the long run (mercury, radiation, bpa, xenoestrogens,...)
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bottom line is that, unless one eats only raw foods that are compatible with one's blood type
I'd just like to point out that there's not to much validity to the blood type diet, and basing your dietary views on it isn't going to do you much good.
I'd also like to point out that whether you read a diet book about the blood type diet, raw vegan, frutarian, paleo, raw paleo, or primal. They're all going to portray a convincing story that will make you want to eat THAT diet.
You're most likely experiencing problems from the dairy. Most who have problems with dairy don't have symptoms till much later. You claim it was fine when you first started. But it may be a problem now.
Consider eliminating dairy first, and seeing how you do without it. I don't think the blood type diet is vaiid, a lot of recomendations are not good ones.
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Bio - the theory you stated above is plausible as are most theories. The problem is that there have been no studies to verify it just like there are no studies on most diets. The best you can do is test it on yourself and see. I eat very little protein - I do much better on less - so not everyone here eats lots of protein. I don't know my blood type.
You could be reacting to dairy or the raw meat or a host of other things. It does seem like in your situation with your suppositions that the most direct avenue to experiment with your theories would be to go back to eating cooked meat for a period keeping everything as it is and see if all your symptoms go away.
If they do - then I will pick your brains in depth on blood types etc. ;D
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Sorry for jumping in the middle of this interesting conversation but I wanted to add few words re daily protein and meat intake.
When I read Nora's book for the first time (and I agree it is definitely the best book on the subject and the one that I usually recommend to "laymen"), I found her recommendations of protein/meat intake ridiculous - way too small. But I gave it a try to see how it would make me feel and it happened to be one of the best diet's improvements I made last years. It is definitely much better for me to eat moderate amounts of meat (~200 g ~ 7 ounces a day).
And someone asked here, what she writes on cooked vs raw meat, in her book. Well, she does write a lot about it. She just agrees that the less processed meat is, the better for us. And she praises sushi or traditional meals like raw tartare for their health benefits.
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ok, here's an update.
i stopped eating raw meat three days ago but continued with everything else (kefir, yogurt, raw butter etc.) as usual. yesterday morning my throat was clogged with mucus and hurt somewhat, which has continued through today. i'd say it's a developing cold but usually colds get worse after a day or two and include a clogged nose and perhaps a cough. i have none of these things and it doesn't seem to get worse either. my theory would be that it's a detox reaction. i believe it's not uncommon to detox in this fashion.
the acne is also getting better, no new outbreaks of any kind, skin is clearing up nicely. lower back pain has gotten better, too. i used to notice it after sitting a long time on the pc and then getting up and by now it's become much less noticable. guess it will be gone completely in another few days.
i'm currently reading one of dr. d'adamo's latest books which deals with 6 geno-types and the diets he has developed for them. for those who don't know it - there are certain genes which are expressed together, such as the yellow coat and obesity in agouti mice. it's the same with humans. for instance, the blood type, or the length of certain fingers, or other body parts, or finger prints, express together with certain aspects of metabolism. an example would be high stomach acid and blood type O or low stomach acid and blood type A. this can be expanded to the immune system, endocrine system etc. it's very interesting.
now, dr. d'adamo has identified 6 different types who all have differences in metabolism and so on which correlate to differences in appearance. i've made the test, which says i'm the "teacher" type, and what he describes as main issues for the teacher type and what these types should eat is uncannily similar to what i experienced myself.
anyway, he writes that "teacher" genotypes should avoid all kinds of red meat. my guess would be that because of the low stomach acid it's very hard to digest and the undigested protein causes problems - exactly what i experienced when i ate raw beef daily. it was much less pronounced when i ate it cooked, most likely because of what i wrote previously - the protein got denatured, formed AGEs and thus wasn't able to wreak as much havoc in my guts as in its raw form.
now, what he recommends for "teacher" types is certain kinds of fish, veggies, fruits, nuts and seeds, certain grains (except wheat), fermented dairy products and soy. i'm probably not going to try soy or grains and i know for a fact that fruits don't do me good because of bacterial overgrowth. interestingly enough, he mentioned just this as the major problem of "teacher" types, bacterial overgrowth. maybe he's not aware that bacteria or yeasts thrive on sugar, especially fructose.
well, i guess what i want to say is that if you have any kind of problem and can't figure out the reason don't dismiss the blood type or geno-type diet without trying it. i'm going to follow it for a while, with some alterations, and will post some updates in the journals occasionally.
imo, the main reason why people have so many problems when they try to eat healthy is because they think that raw foods are better. that may well be the case if you can digest them properly and you don't have any intolerances to them, but if you do, they'll do much more harm if raw compared to cooked, and the reason is lectins and similar compounds. i'd not have believed it before but even such things as dark circles under the eyes seem to be, in my case and probably that of others, a telltale sign of incompatibility to certain raw foods. they disappear if i limit raw food intake and get the bulk of my calories from cooked food. one major exception to this may be fat, simply because it doesn't contain protein which can cause trouble, but in general i'd say that "teacher" types such as myself will always have problems if too much food is eaten raw because of the low stomach acid and possibly other "disorders" that go along with it.
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@löwenherz - do you know any sources in germany where i can buy grass-fed organ meats and glands? apart from liver i've had no luck so far.
Hi,
you can find meat selling hunters on this website:
www.wild-auf-wild.de (http://www.wild-auf-wild.de)
Regarding grass fed beef and organs, look for Galloway and Highland cattle farms. These two breeds are winterproof and often 100% grass-fed:
www.highland.de (http://www.highland.de)
www.galloway-deutschland.de (http://www.galloway-deutschland.de)
Schleswig-Holstein is the grass-fed paradise in continental europe:
Look at
www.galloway.de (http://www.galloway.de)
and here are some excellent sources:
www.geniesserland-sh.de (http://www.geniesserland-sh.de)
Löwenherz
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Sorry for jumping in the middle of this interesting conversation but I wanted to add few words re daily protein and meat intake.
Hi zbr5,
what is you favourite source of fat?
Löwenherz
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Bio - you did an experiment for just ONE day and made such sweeping conclusions.
One day could just be placebo or the mucous could be other than detox. I'm going to let you give it some time and then I would very much like to hear more.
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Hi zbr5,
what is you favourite source of fat?
Löwenherz
Hi LH, my favourite fat is just meat in any form. I especially like raw salmon .
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dorothy, of course you're right. even though it was three days, not just one, it's a very short period to draw any conclusions. nevertheless i can't deny that i noticed obvious improvements, especially where the acne is concerned, a mere 2-3 days after going off the raw meat. my skin has since cleared up and the dark circles under my eyes have become much less pronounced.
during the last few days i've taken the time and looked a bit deeper into the blood-/genotype discussion and while many people and scientists have tried to debunk it their arguments don't convince me, especially in light of my own (immediate) experiences and the overwhelmingly positive reports of many others.
also, the science behind the genotype theory makes sense to me, how certain metabolic, immune or endocrine genes/conditions express themselves together with certain physical traits and blood types.
imo there's still a lot to be learned re the different types, and the recommendations of dr. d'adamo don't always make sense to me based on what i've read elsewhere. for instance, he seems to be a stout believer of the myth that saturated fat causes arteriosclerosis, and even recommends to type O (the red meat eaters) to focus on lean cuts, but from what i've learned i can't even imagine how such a thing would be possible since saturated fats basically raise hdl and the large type of ldl, while it is clearly carbs, especially fructose, that raise triglycerides, vldl and the small ldl type - and these are the threats to cardiovascular health. so there are certainly flaws in his reasoning and no doubt many of his recommendations are not based on adverse lectin reactions but his faulty beliefs regarding fats.
so anyway, i'm going to try a modified genotype diet now. it will still be low-carb, without fruit or any source of fructose, and with focus on veggies (both raw and steamed) and fish, and as for dairy products it will only include raw butter. so i'm going to drop all other dairy products as well, like some people here on the forum recommended. no more kefir, yogurt or cheese for a month or so at least. maybe i'll try to reintroduce kefir, yogurt or whey protein again at some point just to see if i get any adverse reactions but for now i'll try to limit my food choices to cooked fish, steamed broccoli or cauliflower, raw sauerkraut, raw salads (w/o tomatoes), flax oil, raw butter and perhaps the occasional walnut. no point in complicating matters with lots of different foods if 10 or 15 different varieties suffice. thanks to my exceptionally low metabolism i'm unlikely to experience any hunger or weight-loss even with such a limited fat and protein intake and almost no carbs, and if it doesn't work i'll just increase the amount of fish. i'll notice soon enough if my strength from one workout to the next no longer increases.
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I find that I do really well on large amounts of fruits and vegetables, as long as I don't combine different food types and try and keep it to large amounts of single types of fruits and veg's when I can.
I'd say I generally eat 3 or 4 servings of fruit daily, sometimes 2, rarely more than 4. Then I'd also consume something along the lines of a whole large cucumber, or two big bell peppers, or a head of greens etc for that day. I'm going to have sprouts ready to harvest pretty soon (only doing the good veg types like broccoli, garlic, cabbage) so I'll be eating a couple pounds of those per week, and damn excited about it (living, growing plant products are in my mind the healthiest thing for you, above meat).
I find that I maybe eat about a half pound of meat per day on average. Sometimes a a third of a pound, sometimes a pound. It varies.
As for nuts, I used to eat way too many (especially the cooked process ones) and still do, so I've switched over instead to sprouted almonds the last few days, which is much more satisfying (I've been having the most quality bowel movements of my life). I think I'll stick to about 50 grams of these per day while introducing a bit of other raw nuts like pecans.
I've heard people highly recommend against the eating of large quantities of nuts, but it seems very vague. Some people advocate 100 grams or more per day, others only an ounce, saying it can be really harmful to you in the long term with large amounts. But does this apply to the alkaline rich raw sprouted, LIVING almonds? It feels to me that 100 grams per day of these does me much more good than harm. A single bag of potato chips feels like it would be more of a toxic load on your body than pounds of almonds, eaten the right way.
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A single bag of potato chips feels like it would be more of a toxic load on your body than pounds of almonds, eaten the right way.
Sure, and even a single potato chip as long as you don't eat more almonds than just the amount you need at the moment! This can vary widely between zero and a ton. ;) I don't eat nuts everyday, but sometimes I eat a lot of them.
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dorothy, of course you're right. even though it was three days, not just one, it's a very short period to draw any conclusions. nevertheless i can't deny that i noticed obvious improvements, especially where the acne is concerned, a mere 2-3 days after going off the raw meat. my skin has since cleared up and the dark circles under my eyes have become much less pronounced.
I hadn't realized that you had already gone back to cooked meat when I had made the suggestion to do so. After 3 days that's some nice improvements!
Now I wish I knew my blood type. I bet that information is somewhere in my stores of papers in storage. Maybe one day I will find it.
In the meantime - is there a synopsis on-line somewhere of the ideas you have been reading about. If not, what would be the book you would suggest?
I'm wondering if I could guess my blood type just by reading what the suggestions are for the different bloodtypes and correlate that with what I know to be good for me?
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How about vitamin K?
I have been reading reports that vit K provides protection against tooth decay, and recommend eating liver.
However nutritional data . com says that greens have far more K than liver, so whats going on here?
Is it that the K is hard to extract from greens, or that gut bacteria make more K from animal products, or that animal fat is needed to store and transport K?
And then there is also the high folate content of greens.
It seems that greens are very healthy for us.
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There are different forms of vit k oddly enough. Weston A. Price was really into it thinking that it was a magical mysterious missing element.
Bleeders use greens to stop the bleeding because the vitamin k is a blood coagulator. It's pretty important in that regard too. Since I can't stand liver, maybe that's why I like greens so much?
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dorothy, the book i read recently by dr d'adamo is called "change your genetic destiny". it's better than the blood type books because it incorporates other aspects of the body (other genes) as well. you can probably make an educated guess just from the measurements you take of your body and your previous experience with certain foods, without knowing your blood type. there's certainly a lot of stuff in there i don't agree with but you don't have to take his food recommendations to heart in order to gain other useful knowledge from the book.
a brief update re the acne problem. i had a flare up again a few days ago and decided yesterday to make a liver cleanse (last one was almost a year ago i believe) in order to see if it's caused by obstructed bile ducts but that doesn't seem to be the case. all that came out so far was plenty of bright green bile, not a single stone or any kind of grit. guess my gut flora hasn't healed yet and once the undigested protein fragments, immune complexes and whatnot have all been removed the acne will vanish, too. the lower back pain is pretty much gone already.
re vitamin k - the one for blood coagulation is vitamin k1 (found in green veggies etc.), the one weston a. price called "activator x" is vitamin k2, found exclusively in animal products (such as raw butter from grass fed animals, or liver) and fermented foods such as natto (best source for it afaik). so you don't get vitamin k2 from plants unless bacteria have produced it during fermentation. it's said to be very important to deliver calcium from the blood into the bones and works in concert with vitamins d and a.
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On a ketogenic high fat diet you can eat as much nuts and low sugar vegetables as you want without leaving ketosis. Even vegan diets can be ketogenic, raw or cooked. The key point here is sugar.
This is wrong. A ketogenic diet is when you starve yourself of all carbohydrates and your body starts to create elevated levels of ketone bodies from fat to use for energy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis)
In order to get into ketosis you have to eat 0 carbs for up to a week. Then you have to keep your carbs under 20-50g per day. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gZfJejOM8fJsX1iCilmnpp1qmT_KncJwWCR4-EsaEHc/edit?pli=1 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gZfJejOM8fJsX1iCilmnpp1qmT_KncJwWCR4-EsaEHc/edit?pli=1)
It has solely to do with carbohydrates. Sugars just happen to be a carbohydrate. You said you eat lots of nuts. Look at how many carbs are in nuts: http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/carbcounts/a/Carbs-Fats-And-Calories-In-Nuts-And-Seeds.htm (http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/carbcounts/a/Carbs-Fats-And-Calories-In-Nuts-And-Seeds.htm)
It's a lot! Take peanuts for example. The more common nut. It has 4.5 carbs per ounce. 36 carbs in 1 cup. When I eat nuts I often eat 2+ cups at once. Cashews and almonds have significantly more. Then you have to calculate the carbs in everything else you eat. Most vegetables are low in carbs but they do have some that add up.
This leads me to believe that you think you're in ketosis but you actually aren't.
i have a request. could those of you who have found their ideal diet please describe it briefly and include their blood type?
My blood type is AB negative. I've tried:
Cooked vegan - lots of sweet potato, legumes, vegetables, and maybe some fruit. I felt kind of "empty" and craved meat. I felt similar emptiness and meat craving on 80/10/10rv.
80/10/10 raw vegan - eat fruit all day with 1 big vegetable meal at the end of the day.
Raw paleo ketosis - only meat fat and low carb vegetables like greens.
Raw paleo - fruit, meat, fat, vegetables, nuts. I've also tried raw dairy.
The ideal diet for me is raw paleo with no nuts or dairy and only watery fruits(ex: no bananas or dates). I eat some beef or lamb fat after eating fruit. I eat 2-3 meals of fruit & fat, 1-2 meals of meat, ~1 meal of vegetables. I eat instinctively and don't mix different types of food(except for fruit + fat together) in the same meal.
This was my experience with 80/10/10rv:
I had high hopes for this diet but it turned out to be as dangerous as it sounds. I tried the diet for about a month. I read people's reviews and warnings and did the diet perfectly - 80/10/10rv. I ate LOTS of fruit and had a huge meal of vegetables at the end of the day.
Hair loss: The first time I took a shower after starting the diet my hands were covered in hair after shampooing. It was pretty scary. The hair loss is slowing down now after stopping the diet for a few weeks.
My gums started to recede, my teeth were visibly grinding down; two of them chipped.
I think some of it has to do with the acidity that fruit leaves in your mouth. You're not supposed to brush your teeth after eating fruit because the acid temporarily softens the enamel and the toothbrush then wears it away. But if you're eating fruit all day it makes it difficult to find a time to brush, and if you don't brush then it leaves your mouth acidic the whole day(which is what I did - only brushed once a day).
I think the solution would be to eat some type of vegetable after every single meal in order to neutralize the acid, but I'm not willing to risk trying this diet again.
This was my experience with raw paleo ketosis:
Keto has to be the worst thing along with 80/10/10 Raw Vegan that I have ever done for my health.
During keto I got all the usual negative symptoms associated with a the diet. Brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, heart palpitations, & a kidney stone. For over a year I kept at this diet because people said: it takes a week for your body to adapt, it can take 1-3 months to adapt, it could take more than a year to adapt but it's the best thing ever.
After bringing back fruit into my diet all the symptoms slowly went away.
Not to mention your daily diet every day on raw keto can be extremely bland & monotonous; especially without any plant foods!
A varied diet would look something like: for breakfast you eat chicken, for lunch you eat beef, for dinner you eat seafood, for snacks you eat fat. Every single day.
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MK's experience re diet was much like mine. Agree re ketosis definition etc.
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i've thought a bit more about the above. maybe someone can comment on this and lmk if i'm right or wrong:
- when sugar molecules bind to protein molecules in cell walls in an unwanted fashion (without the help of enzymes - called glycation) this creates AGEs
- lectins are proteins that bind to sugar molecules in cell walls (let's call it "lectination" for sake of argument), creating a similar end result - AGEs
- AGEs are formed when food is heated
- lectins are (partially or mostly) inactivated when food is heated
- so the reason for the creation of AGEs by heating food, meat in this case, is that lectins bind to sugar molecules in cell walls, since there's no actual sugar in meat (except as glycogen in muscle meat or liver but as mentioned before the end result is the same anyway)
- most, if not all, people don't experience acute reactions to heated foods, even if incompatible to their blood type
- most, if not all, people experience chronic symptoms / degeneration / inflammation after long-term exposure to foods that are incompatible to their blood type (a good example would be gluten which is more or less harmful for every human)
- many people experience more or less acute reactions if food that's incompatible to their blood type is eaten raw (some might call it allergic reactions)
- conclusion: the reason why wrong foods that are heated only create problems after long-term exposure is because most lectins are inactivated outside the body, during the heating process. that forms AGEs which are certainly harmful in excess and in the long run but prevents "lectination" in the gut
bottom line is that, unless one eats only raw foods that are compatible with one's blood type, it's better to eat incompatible foods heated, where most of the lectins are already deactivated before ingestion, instead of eating these foods raw where all the lectins are still active and create havoc with the intestinal lining. in my case (blood type A) this would explain why i react with acne and possibly kidney problems to raw meat but not to cooked meat.
case in point, doesn't aajonus eat raw honey together with raw butter or eggs or milk or something? maybe there are sugar molecules in honey to which most of the lectins in these protein foods can bind, thus getting inactivated. this would reduce the damage to the gut lining considerably.
Yes, I've read a number of sources that indicate that raw food causes acute problems, and cooked/processed foods cause more chronic problems. This has been my experience as well.
For instance, Chinese Medicine doctors will say that the tongue coating changes slowly over time. This is true if you're eating a lot of cooked food. I've seen this with my own tongue. However, I've seen my tongue coating change completely within a few hours and even minutes after going raw. I've seen this happen multiple times.
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I think some of it has to do with the acidity that fruit leaves in your mouth. You're not supposed to brush your teeth after eating fruit because the acid temporarily softens the enamel and the toothbrush then wears it away. But if you're eating fruit all day it makes it difficult to find a time to brush, and if you don't brush then it leaves your mouth acidic the whole day(which is what I did - only brushed once a day).
I think the solution would be to eat some type of vegetable after every single meal in order to neutralize the acid, but I'm not willing to risk trying this diet again.
I read a book recently by Frederic Patenaude, who is a raw vegan who does 80/10/10 and says to be doing it extremely successfully based on a few changes he had to make due to a very failing of health. I found it useful for many tips, although my diet is much different than his. It was also a neat story to read about his involvement in the California raw food movement (he met many of the raw "guru's").
Among some of his suggestions were not to snack on fruit all day like most people were doing. He says you need to cram in enough fruit calories in 2 meals, and then have something like a big salad with avocado or a few nuts or something like that. The key is to eat enough fruit (and enough greens!) Most people don't, and think they do.
He claims that the benefits of this diet don't come from the raw foods. They help, but the main benefit comes from abstaining from cooked foods, and unnatural, harmful foods. I agree with many of his ideas, but I personally don't think a diet of mostly just fruit is healthy (and would be very unsatisfying). It has deficiencies unless you supplement.
Another recommendation was to brush 3 times a day, for a total of about 10 minutes, very gently. In his younger days he ended up destroying his teeth (basically 40 fillings within 5 or 6 years). Now that he does what he does, he has no problems with his teeth.
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Let's see how he does in ten years. I followed his way of eating when I was doing 80 10 10. He would also like to sell you his soap tooth paste too. Ask him if he's monitored his blood sugar throughout the day, and if he's aware of insulin resistance from continual eating of foods that spike insulin. Maybe a little biased here, but it hurt me quite a bit. Hard to notice in the beginning, for all the sugar gives one big boosts of 'energy'. And then you have to keep eating more and more. Just look at Durianrider.
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How long has Frederic Patenaude been a raw vegan with emphasis on fruits? Does he look young or old for his age?
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Let's see how he does in ten years. I followed his way of eating when I was doing 80 10 10. He would also like to sell you his soap tooth paste too. Ask him if he's monitored his blood sugar throughout the day, and if he's aware of insulin resistance from continual eating of foods that spike insulin. Maybe a little biased here, but it hurt me quite a bit. Hard to notice in the beginning, for all the sugar gives one big boosts of 'energy'. And then you have to keep eating more and more. Just look at Durianrider.
Doug Graham has already gone to hell in a handbasket. He looks like shit, and DR is on his way there as well.
There might be some tiny percentage of the population who can do a low-fat, high fruit diet for years and have no problems. Tiny is the word, though. It catches up with almost everyone eventually.
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How long has Frederic Patenaude been a raw vegan with emphasis on fruits? Does he look young or old for his age?
He started at about 18 I believe, and had always been very underweight until he made changes to the diet which a lot of the raw vegan guru's disagreed with (their advice was never working for anybody in the long term). Nowadays he's 34 I believe, and looks healthy and youthful. He's a regular weight now, and from what I've seen from him looks toned.
He's not 100% strict, preferring to eat cooked food a few times a week in the form of lightly steamed vegetables or cooked potatoes, claiming that some cooked food isn't nearly as bad as others and that to be successful in the long term you gotta give yourself some breaks like these.
I think he'll actually continue to do very well on this diet, simply because he's careful to get everything and enough of what he needs. Big green smoothies are an important and easy way he gets nutrients and calories.
Testimonials by people claiming to have adopted his techniques and tips report an 80/10/10 very much a success whereas before they only had a declining of health.
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He started at about 18 I believe, and had always been very underweight until he made changes to the diet which a lot of the raw vegan guru's disagreed with (their advice was never working for anybody in the long term). Nowadays he's 34 I believe, and looks healthy and youthful. He's a regular weight now, and from what I've seen from him looks toned.
He's not 100% strict, preferring to eat cooked food a few times a week in the form of lightly steamed vegetables or cooked potatoes, claiming that some cooked food isn't nearly as bad as others and that to be successful in the long term you gotta give yourself some breaks like these.
I think he'll actually continue to do very well on this diet, simply because he's careful to get everything and enough of what he needs. Big green smoothies are an important and easy way he gets nutrients and calories.
Testimonials by people claiming to have adopted his techniques and tips report an 80/10/10 very much a success whereas before they only had a declining of health.
Like I said, a tiny percentage of people can make it work in the long run.
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I do wish people wouldn't erroneously claim that certain diets are great just because some people on such diets live to a 100 or over. That point is irrelevant as advanced medical technology now keeps people alive for far longer, despite their many ailments, plus there is less stress in peoples' lives nowadays which is also a factor etc.
Plus, I've seen so many people end up in a very bad way due to eating cooked diets. Sure, a very few do take precautions, such as going in for caloric restriction or not heating their food too much, but even those are in an unhealthy state - it's just that they seem healthy only because their health-problems are far "less worse" than the more serious health-problems of most other cooked-food-eaters.
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He started at about 18 I believe, and had always been very underweight until he made changes to the diet which a lot of the raw vegan guru's disagreed with (their advice was never working for anybody in the long term). Nowadays he's 34 I believe, and looks healthy and youthful. He's a regular weight now, and from what I've seen from him looks toned.
He's not 100% strict, preferring to eat cooked food a few times a week in the form of lightly steamed vegetables or cooked potatoes, claiming that some cooked food isn't nearly as bad as others and that to be successful in the long term you gotta give yourself some breaks like these.
I think he'll actually continue to do very well on this diet, simply because he's careful to get everything and enough of what he needs. Big green smoothies are an important and easy way he gets nutrients and calories.
Testimonials by people claiming to have adopted his techniques and tips report an 80/10/10 very much a success whereas before they only had a declining of health.
Thanks for replying.
34 is too young to get sick for most people. People on a SAD diet can look and feel awesome at 34.
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I do wish people wouldn't erroneously claim that certain diets are great just because some people on such diets live to a 100 or over. That point is irrelevant as advanced medical technology now keeps people alive for far longer, despite their many ailments, plus there is less stress in peoples' lives nowadays which is also a factor etc.
Plus, I've seen so many people end up in a very bad way due to eating cooked diets. Sure, a very few do take precautions, such as going in for caloric restriction or not heating their food too much, but even those are in an unhealthy state - it's just that they seem healthy only because their health-problems are far "less worse" than the more serious health-problems of most other cooked-food-eaters.
It continually amazes me how unwilling people are to try a simple idea like eating all-raw.
It reduces my opinion of the human race.
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CK, you could use a dose of compassion. ;) Giving up all the cooked comfort foods is a shocking idea to many. Some people's primary pleasure in life is eating those comfort foods.
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CK, you could use a dose of compassion. ;)
I'm sure you're right, but I still reserve the right to think poorly of the human race.
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Yes, I have to say I agree. Fred is probably doing the best 80/10/10 diet that can be done, and good on him for giving other people advice on how to do it the most proper that they're able. Many raw vegan "experts" are giving such terrible advice. Fred seems to be at least on a decent track.
I'd never recommend his diet though, only the tips he provides because even on a diet thats different than his, he has good insights that can help other people. We need good, clean meat, and plenty of it. An all fruit and veg diet is not only unsatisfying, its definitely dangerous in the long term.
His wisdom appealed to me because I usually eat upwards of 2 pounds of fruit and veg a day minimum. Some days more (some days less, but not usually).
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That guy is a joke and obviously just looking to make some easy money, and I'm not sure how could anyone believe anything he says.
http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/ (http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/)
I've seen the exact same template on a bunch of similar scam web sites.
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All vegans and anyone who touts the vegan lifestyle is a joke. This guy is just the least of the jokers, I think.
The main reason I got his book was because of his story about the raw food movement, and the fact that he's a raw food advocate with some good tips.
I'm not sure how could anyone believe anything he says.
Your comment strikes me as extremely ignorant. Just because he doesn't advocate eating meat doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about produce or have any other good tips. In my opinion, produce is the most important part of a diet, for sure. Just like with anything (including the material we all subscribe to and promote) you take the good with the bad and decide for yourself what knowledge you find logical and useful to keep.
On another note, who the hell isn't looking to make easy money, if you can?
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I read a book recently by Frederic Patenaude, who is a raw vegan who does 80/10/10 and says to be doing it extremely successfully based on a few changes he had to make due to a very failing of health. I found it useful for many tips, although my diet is much different than his. It was also a neat story to read about his involvement in the California raw food movement (he met many of the raw "guru's").
Among some of his suggestions were not to snack on fruit all day like most people were doing. He says you need to cram in enough fruit calories in 2 meals, and then have something like a big salad with avocado or a few nuts or something like that. The key is to eat enough fruit (and enough greens!) Most people don't, and think they do.
He claims that the benefits of this diet don't come from the raw foods. They help, but the main benefit comes from abstaining from cooked foods, and unnatural, harmful foods. I agree with many of his ideas, but I personally don't think a diet of mostly just fruit is healthy (and would be very unsatisfying). It has deficiencies unless you supplement.
Another recommendation was to brush 3 times a day, for a total of about 10 minutes, very gently. In his younger days he ended up destroying his teeth (basically 40 fillings within 5 or 6 years). Now that he does what he does, he has no problems with his teeth.
If you have time, please share more of FP's tips on fruit and vegetables.
When I go instincto, I tend to eat much fruit. Does FP advocate sweet or sour fruit?
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On another note, who the hell isn't looking to make easy money, if you can?
I'd rather pay to someone who's genuinely into the topic and studied it seriously, not some random guy who's merely telling his experience or something he read on the internet. He's dumb enough to ignore animal foods, why would I take his advice on anything then? How do I know that whatever else he's saying is not equally flawed.
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Here's my personal opinion re: can we do without plant foods.
I personally think we can do without plant foods. How ever by design I don't think we're naturally meat only eaters.
I think we do well with some plant foods. I don't think we do well with ALL plant foods, but fruits, veggies, and possibly nuts in moderation without going over board sounds sensible.
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For those who haven't seen/heard it, Loren Cordain talks about eating an only fat and meat diet here: http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/03/24/loren-cordain-caution-on-saturated-fats-disaster-with-grains-will-be-public-after-march-25th/ (http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/03/24/loren-cordain-caution-on-saturated-fats-disaster-with-grains-will-be-public-after-march-25th/)
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Inger, don't we need saturated fats?
I think that it's only possible to live exclusively on food from the sea if we include sea mammals and other creatures who can supply us with more saturated fats. Some German scientists tried a mackerel zc diet. The results have been devastating after some weeks/months. Too many PUFAs, even from raw animal sources can be very problematic. Let me see if I can find these papers...
Have you heard of the super fatty candlefish? It's supposed to have a perfect fatty acid balance, much better than salmon or mackerel. Unfortunately, it's not available in Europe, as far as I know.
Löwenherz
Unfinished Task:
1) It seems you have not found this book. It would have been interesting to have it, as Jack kruse epi poleo diet seems to be related to it. While I followed Inger, and she followed Jack, therefore it seems to be important to me.
2) Please also make it clear if those doctors used cooked mackerel or the raw one.
Thanks & Regards
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For those who haven't seen/heard it, Loren Cordain talks about eating an only fat and meat diet here: http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/03/24/loren-cordain-caution-on-saturated-fats-disaster-with-grains-will-be-public-after-march-25th/ (http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2010/03/24/loren-cordain-caution-on-saturated-fats-disaster-with-grains-will-be-public-after-march-25th/)
Thanks, very interesting. Excerpt:
Zimmerman was a pathologist, and he was lucky enough to be in Alaska when a 400 AD, so we’re talking 1600 year old, frozen Inuit mummy was recovered. He did an autopsy on this, and he sectioned the coronary arteries. So this is 400 AD. These people had never seen white people. They had only eaten what Steve Phinney had suggested people eat–fat and protein–and significant atherosclerosis in a 53 year old Inuit woman, on pathology. That wasn’t just the only case. He then was privy to another group of frozen Eskimo bodies that were recovered in Barrow, Alaska, and these people date to about 1520 AD, so just slightly after the time Columbus had discovered America. Once again, no influence of Western civilization. So presumably, they were living at Barrow, 60 degrees north, they were eating meat and fat their entire life. They might get a little bit of berries sometime in the summer. Extensive atherosclerosis was in the older woman, who was 30. All three of them were osteoporotic. They were severely osteoporotic on that type of diet. So you can give this to people who claim that all we need to eat is meat and fat.
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I am not believing in a fat and protein diet only.
I believe we need all that grows where we live.
I eat wild edibles, berries, mushrooms.. seaweeds... the whole animal.. fish and land mammals.. I am totally not for a restricted diet! But I am totally for a local diet.
Maybe the Inuit in the study did not eat those. It is a useless case as we do not know how the individuals referred to in the study really lived. It was over 1000 years ago. We need to be always careful when referring to studies like this if that is to give us an opportunity to feast on dates in the mid of Scandinavian winter..huh! We need to use our brains and see the whole picture.
But sure it is NOT healthy to live from only fat and protein. That I am 100% sure of!
Many people get scared from such studies and then start eating fruits and carbs that are totally unnatural to their environment and seasons. Instead of checking what they might have left out. Seaweeds anyone? Awesome for bone heath! And you get them everywhere on earth close to ocean/sea. Iodine? A more effective antioxidant than vitamin C..!
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Given that atherosclerosis is heavily increased as a result of consuming heat-created toxins from cooked foods, according to many studies on advanced glycation end products, Iguana is simply showing that even eating boiled meats like the Inuit sometimes did, is ultimately harmful. Going raw, zero-carb would be fine(for some), by contrast.
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Tyler.. I still by no means believe it is too good an idea to eat only meat and fat. Even if it is raw.
Sure you can survive by it, but ideal? No. Not in my view at least.
I believe we need some greens too, like seaweeds. And wild berries and mushrooms and stuff. I do not understand why we need to limit our food into just meat and fat.. -X
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Inger - Do you think for 3-6months it is safe/good to live on various fat and various protein with small amts of sea vegetables, fresh and dried herbs, and bites of kraut? I have even over ate mushrooms - especially portabella -[.
I have stuffed myself on salad. I hope I will heal metabolically/hormonally/mentally/emotionally and find freedom from those bonds. IYO is that healthy balance for a season or 2?
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Yes Adora, I think that is perfectly fine, especially when you eat the whole animal. :)
Portabella is not growing wild is it? I usually eat only wild mushrooms.. and seasonal, in summer/ fall. The cultivated one have too little nutrition and healing properties..
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Adora, I would strongly recommend to listen to your body. If you feel worse on ketosis then don't do it.
I have tried pretty much every diet imaginable(including what you just mentioned) and the good ones always effect me positively right away, and the bad ones don't get better. Ketosis is the exception in that it has a known physical adaption period of approximately 1-2 weeks. If you're not feeling good on ketosis after 2-3 weeks, stop.
There are definitely benefits from raw fats but ketosis seems to mainly be a weight loss strategy that only a small percentage of people function well on. I do well on a high fat diet but very poorly on ketosis.
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Inger, I've never had wild mushrooms, I could look into it, AV had a bad experience, so I haven't tried to learn about them, but I like other wild edibles. In the winter I love pine needle tea, its cooked though, wild. In the spring I eat the little sprouts from the pine trees, they come when it is still cold, one of the first greens in spring. How did you learn to identify wild mushrooms?
Max - Thanks for the recommendation. I like ketosis though. I hardly had any bad days in transition. I am not losing weight , even zc. I was, but I started over eating and stopped pretty much all exercise, due to broken foot, from over training and subsequent lapse of depression. Even though I gained back lbs. I still feel physically good and my foot healed a good bit this last week, so my spirits are much higher.
The only other bad feeling was the cravings, I think it was partly BG and mood, but also the dairy, opened a gate way. It is such a pleasure to enjoy butter, cream, and cheese, but the cravings are considerably less without it just 1 day.
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You crave other stuff when eating dairy? What do you crave?
So you've already been on raw keto for a while and like it? What's your daily diet like and what do you like about ketosis?
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Inger, don't we need saturated fats?
I think that it's only possible to live exclusively on food from the sea if we include sea mammals and other creatures who can supply us with more saturated fats. Some German scientists tried a mackerel zc diet. The results have been devastating after some weeks/months. Too many PUFAs, even from raw animal sources can be very problematic. Let me see if I can find these papers...
I was reading Jack Kruse.
He advised to take extra MUFA's as added fat if one is taking Seafood.
http://www.jackkruse.com/brain-gut-6-epi-paleo-rx/ (http://www.jackkruse.com/brain-gut-6-epi-paleo-rx/)
Your thoughts please.
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Max - Thanks for the recommendation. I like ketosis though. I hardly had any bad days in transition. I am not losing weight , even zc. I was, but I started over eating and stopped pretty much all exercise, due to broken foot, from over training and subsequent lapse of depression. Even though I gained back lbs. I still feel physically good and my foot healed a good bit this last week, so my spirits are much higher.
Adora, I thought you prefer instinctive eating. Here is you post on July 28, 2012
"Joy don't give up on the instinctive approach. If you read and follow the instruction on how to listen to yourself, you might find that you don't over consume sweets at all. I was doing great with fruit and honey using instinctive. It took 2-3 days of strict attention to smell and taste, and then it got easier. I was loosing weight and eating much less sugar. GCB talks about emotional eating too.
I wasn't aware of the stop for sugar well at first. I over ate some raw sweets on the first day or 2, but I became precise quick.
I ate considerably less and lost 10lbs easy in a month. I gave into pressure and quit instinctive, but I'm going back tomorrow. You don't have to be totally insticitive forever, but it is a usefull practice, and if you follow the rules faithfully your instincts will sharpen."
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Adora, I thought you prefer instinctive eating. ...
I thought I'd chime in on this comment. I eat very low carb instinctively. There is no contradiction. It is a good choice for people who do not process well when insulin is involved, as well as for other issues. The idea behind instinctive eating is to have on hand a range of edible items. If carbs are not edible items for some reason, they are not kept on hand.
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But Eve, in most natural environments favorable to human life there are carbohydrates on hand anyway. In some cases, a few individuals may not like to eat "carby stuff" during a more or less long period, but everything changes with time.
Another point is that these distinctions between proteins, fats and carbs are modern knowledge. It would be preferable not to know about it or forget it, because such info tends to interfere with our nutritional choices.
Best wishes
François
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Inger, don't we need saturated fats?
I think that it's only possible to live exclusively on food from the sea if we include sea mammals and other creatures who can supply us with more saturated fats. Some German scientists tried a mackerel zc diet. The results have been devastating after some weeks/months. Too many PUFAs, even from raw animal sources can be very problematic. Let me see if I can find these papers...
Here is the complete related part of the article of Jack.
http://www.jackkruse.com/brain-gut-6-epi-paleo-rx/ (http://www.jackkruse.com/brain-gut-6-epi-paleo-rx/)
FATS: (in order of Optimal)
1. Spring and summer: Coconut oil, ghee, palm oil, duck fat, beef tallow, bacon fat, duck fat, pastured butter if there are no medical issue precluding its use, olive or avocado oils for salads, macadamia nut oils for mayonaise, raw cream if there are no contraindications* When you eat seafood try to use MUFA’s as the added fat.
2. Fall and Winter: ghee, pastured butter, duck fat, beef tallow, bacon fat, non hydrogenated lard, raw cream* Stick to animal fats in colder months. When you eat seafood try to use MUFA’s as the added fat.*
3. When you eat non seafood protein this is when you should add your saturated fats to your diet to the greatest degree!! Grass fed red meat and offal come packed with saturated fats by nature and fish do not, by design as well as I laid out in the webinar. When I eat non seafood protein and saturated fats, I tend to also add sea vegetables to the meal.
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Eve - I hope to get to where you are, but that is in my future. For now I weigh and measure and it is not instinctive at all. I add herbs and seasoning to feel more satisfied, I grind and warm food for ease and pleasure. I'm struggling to be free of carb cravings and over eating. That is my prime motive at this time. I am crazed/dysfunctional/broken/addicted - whatever so, right now I'm just hoping that if I eat nutritionally dense, small meals, without carbs in time I will heal.
Joy - I felt/feel connected to myself with instinctive eating, but it was too much for me. Maybe if I had a class or a coach I could have persevered. It brought to my attention more than I could handle under the stress that I don't know how to eliminate in my life presently. I had to focus in a particular way to eat according to instinctive principles and when the time is right for me I will return to it, but without carbs.
On the other hand, with my full connection in an actual meditative state, I was able to eat exactly the right amt of food including honey and sweet fruits, for my growth as a whole person (physically/ mentally/emotionally healing). I was able and it was clear, but it required honesty and focus, that meant that I couldn't be on the phone or with others, watching TV, at work, or any distraction. I think for some this is easier due to less outside distractions, and less internal noise of addiction. It was getting easier, and I think eventually it would become really instinctive to be instinctive. I believe anybody could do it and it is a powerful tool for whole self healing.
zc is more doable for me. This has been a problem all of my life, EVERYTHING pivots around carbs and overeating, I want to deal with stuff, but it is to be overwhelmed. ZC especially with measuring, will hopefully help my BG to stabilize and ease things up a bit. I also want to return to my light weight, agile form. Success in that department is motivating, and disappointment is deeply frustrating.
Max - I'm having a really tough time right now. I want to get through it and I'm hoping that if I switch things up and stay focused on success I'll out last the cravings. It worked when I was addicted to cigarettes. Sometimes, I thought the cravings would never pass. I had them for 5 years, they passed totally after about 10. I'm at least as hooked on overeating and carbs as I was on cigarettes.
I'm pretty sure I substituted eating for some of the addictive smoking behavior. So, maybe now I'll reach the core of the addiction. I avoided cigarettes and I healed that part. Avoiding the triggers it is a little easier than moderating my intake. The insidious voice of addiction has more fuel whenI moderate than when I exclude. Meat/fish/fat/ seaweed/herbs/salt aren't triggering me. I really enjoy dairy. I have no desire to stop drinking cream when my belly is full. Instead I think about adding honey and whipping them up then I think of the berries, and before I know it I'm sucking down snicker bars on the couch and can't get up because I'm so stuffed. Maybe it's because it raises my BG into the 200's immediately because injected subcutaneous insulin is much slower than gut carb absorption, IDK. Not pretty! it's the same story for cream/cheese/butter isn't as immediate but, it still sings its bitter sweet song of addiction.
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But Eve, in most natural environments favorable to human life there are carbohydrates on hand anyway. In some cases, a few individuals may not like to eat "carby stuff" during a more or less long period, but everything changes with time.
Another point is that these distinctions between proteins, fats and carbs are modern knowledge. It would be preferable not to know about it or forget it, because such info tends to interfere with our nutritional choices.
Best wishes
François
If, in a natural environment, I ate something that made me ache all over, I wouldn't continue to try it again. I do not look at a food and say, "This is a carb," and then subsequently react badly to eating it. The bad reaction precedes the conclusion that I should avoid carbs. It is the simplest form of intelligence to avoid pain. Perhaps I would not experience inflammatory food intolerance if I had been fed differently from birth, but that is not my life.
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Eve, I feel glad for you that you have found your ideal diet. I tend to eat much sweet fruit when I do instincting eating, which I know is not too good. So I am still searching for my ideal diet.
Adora, it seems you are under much stress. I pray you will sort things out before long.
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What about replacing fruits with pastries and ice-creams? ;)
True, fruits may be not too good if they are much different from the wild, natural ones. If you could find more wild fruits, you could forget everything you think you know...
Anyhow, no more than one kind of fruit and nothing else for lunch should be fine, even more so if you can avoid fruits at dinner. :)
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What about people who live in areas where there are no wild fruits, ie. the city.
Should they avoid fruits and veggies altogether since they can't get wild fruits?
And what about people who can't afford organic produce? I eat regular produce with my organic, grass fed meats and it's fine for me.
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Da Boss,
here one can buy wild frozen berries in any shop. Also dried seaweeds from health stores. Or on internet. I would say you have it almost easier in a city. But a health conscious individual will have a hard time to live in a city any way. I am so glad I do not have to. I only work there.
When wild berries are in season I guess everyone will have the opportunity to travel a bit outside the city and pick berries there.
I would absolutely choose no fruit at all over cultivated, unnatural, not in season ones..
Yeah.. I thought I could never live without my fruits too, years ago.. but then I tried it out to go totally without and it turned out to be a blessing for me! I would say, it is mostly the addiction to sweets that stays in ones way.
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But Eve, in most natural environments favorable to human life there are carbohydrates on hand anyway. In some cases, a few individuals may not like to eat "carby stuff" during a more or less long period, but everything changes with time.
Francois.. how do you know what environment is favorable to human.. it might be different than you think now.
And what does favorable mean.. what feels good short time and we think is convenient, or what is the best for our longevity and health?
To have it convenient is not often what is good for our species.
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Idk, I guess our opinions differ. I think so long as they're not GMO then they're OK. As far as I know only papaya, and I think zucchini are GMO. All the other fruits, veggies and nuts are non-GMO.
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Honestly, I don't think fruits are that bad. They've only been problematic for me when I didn't eat meat & fat as well(80/10/10rv). Eating some raw fat with or right after fruit was great for me(beef suet as the fat really improved mouth/teeth health). In other threads there are pictures of people who look healthy and not old for their age and they eat an (almost?) all fruitarian diet. But I think that extreme only works for a few people, much like ketosis.
When starting to eat instinctively I eat a lot of fruit (~3 meals fruit&fat, 1 veg, 1 meat) but then seem to eat more meat and veg when I start feeling better.
Also, from what I've read a lot of the organic vegetable and fruit buying is mostly hype. From what I've read and heard, unless you buy organic at a local farmer's market all your organic produce will have been sprayed with organic pesticides instead of non organic ones. Farmers say the organic pesticides are more destructive than the synthetic ones because they kill good insects and bugs while the synthetic ones are very specialized.
Also, only hawaiian papaya is GMO, mexican papaya is fine.
Adora how long have you been in ketosis? You basically crave sweets when you add dairy but without dairy you're fine? I remember around the time I was starting ketosis I would get intense cravings for sugar/candy and drive down to the store and buy like 15 candy bars and just chow down. I've had similar cravings for sweets(just not that intense usually) throughout my life. For me the solution was greens. If I eat enough vegetables, especially leafy greens, I don't get cravings. I haven't eaten any processed food in 3+ years. Any time I see any candy, cookies, or w/e it just doesn't appeal to me anymore.
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I fairly agree with you, Maximilian.
Francois.. how do you know what environment is favorable to human.. it might be different than you think now.
And what does favorable mean.. what feels good short time and we think is convenient, or what is the best for our longevity and health?
To have it convenient is not often what is good for our species.
Favorable means that there is water, a broad variety of food in plenty and a climate allowing us to live without fire, without technology. A hot desert such as the Death valley, high mountains like the top of Himalaya, a coral reef, an atoll without any trees, the Arctic and the Antarctic, asteroids and the moon, etc… are environments unfavorable to us.
Eliminate fire, cloths, shoes and all technology and then you would find which environment is best suitable, wouldn’t you? ;)
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lol.. Francois I am certainly not going to debate with you what place is the most favorable for human.. ;) I already know how that will end.. Ha. To be honest you said quite wisely.. maybe not exacly how me thinks but who cares. ;) But I am sure where you live there is not an abundance of fruit year around, is there? I bet only in two seasons, summer and fall? And the other half of the year one had to survive without any fruits if eating only what is natural to the environment you live in? Tell me if I am wrong.
Up here the carb season is even shorter. It is just a few months.
I never said I am against carbs! People need to read better. I said, I think it is totally unnatural to eat carbs out of context. And with that I mean what the season produces where we live at the moment. In Africa there are also dry seasons and such. But I am not thinking it is ideal to live in such warm environment at all anymore. Too hot is not healthy. On the cooler side is better. Too cold might be an issue too for sure. But who knows how well we can adapt if we tried? But almost no one tries it anymore so hard to know.
To say supermarkt fruit is good is stupid. At least the fruits I have seen where I have lived. Very occasional I found something good but it was mostly a disaster, they did not satisfied me either. In my Instincto years I lived when it came to fruits, almost only from Orkos fruits, three ripenend, organic high quality exotic fruits. I was never able to go back to supermarkt fruits. They are radiated or something me thinks because one mango never ripens but stays stone hard and gets brown instead. It is all weird. No thanks. I am for local seasonal berries and fruit (wild are optimal).
There is something else magical with eating seasonally. It is always very exiting, because you do not have everything all the time, it feels much much more blessed somehow! You truly enjoy the first ripe wild raspberries.. and throughout the season you eat and eat and eat.. it is like in heaven! :)
For Francois it might be the figs... ;)
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Maximilian.. a healthy body should have zero issues staying the winter and spring in ketosis. If you have issues, something does not work right in your body. To me it is a sign of un health. You can resolve those if you want though. But sure not if you continue to blame the ketosis for you feeling bad. Because it actually is your body not functioning properly...
I am not saying to force ketosis, it might be better to do it slowly. But I would do all I could to get the healing done if I had those issues, as it certainly tells something is amiss.
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I'm just curious. I see a lot about eating in season, but mainly with plant foods. Does the same apply to animal foods? I mean, I can't get GRASS fed beef during the winter, just hay fed. Should I avoid grass fed animals while it's winter because it's not grass fed?
Not that I'm going to. Just curious.
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Lots of animal foods are seasonal. Right now, it's crab and oyster season along the coast where I live. Some seasonal hunting is established so that the animal can raise its young, but that is a kind of seasonality. Hens don't typically lay eggs here in the winter. My climate is warm enough for grassfed beef year round, but that is not true everywhere.
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@eveheart
@Van
@Inger
New domain for me i.e. seaweeds. Please little more guidance:
1) Van & eveheart .... do you eat only ONE kind of seaweed (i.e. Alaria, which you mentioned). But in Germany, I think we don't have Alaria
2) Is Spirulina also acceptable as seaweed?
3) Inger: you must be knowing the types of seaweeds available in Germany, and from which health store they could be bought.
At moment, I have found only some seaweeds in Asian stores. But I don't know about their quality. I would prefer to buy them from health stores, where one is sure for the quality.
Also, is there possible to buy fresh seaweeds in any health store?
Do you feel difference in health benefits when you eat dried seaweeds and when you eat the fresh seaweed?
In one Asian shop, I also found frozen non dried seaweeds.
So, I am now -\ i.e. confused and undecided.
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The several seaweed varieties I get are either semi-local (Mendocino California coast) or from Korea (because I trust the Korean stores near me). I get them sun-dried from wildcrafters who don't spray the seaweeds with pesticide. See what is around you - is there clean coastline with seaweed producers? Otherwise, Maine and Mendocino, CA, are good sources, as far as I know.
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Maximilian.. a healthy body should have zero issues staying the winter and spring in ketosis. If you have issues, something does not work right in your body. To me it is a sign of un health. You can resolve those if you want though. But sure not if you continue to blame the ketosis for you feeling bad. Because it actually is your body not functioning properly...
I am not saying to force ketosis, it might be better to do it slowly. But I would do all I could to get the healing done if I had those issues, as it certainly tells something is amiss.
Well you're partially right in that I am disabled so I'm not in perfect health. It's the reason I started trying various extreme diets in the first place. However, I think I would be a perfect model for testing what is our ideal diet since the benefits and negatives of every diet are maximized to me. Just because a healthy body can handle something doesn't make it ideal. There are many people who handle the standard american diet.
Not to mention that many of the men on this forum have tried ketosis and had similar issues with it, while many of the women on here seem to do fine, if not well on ketosis.
Also, weren't you under the impression that you were in ketosis while eating large amounts of nuts which in reality have many carbs (http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/carbcounts/a/Carbs-Fats-And-Calories-In-Nuts-And-Seeds.htm)? Thus all the great benefits you were attributing to ketosis were actually due to a high fat, low carb diet which works well for most people.
Oh, my mistake, it was Löwenherz, not you. (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/can-we-do-without-vegetablesgreens/msg102244/#msg102244) But it still makes me wonder whether or not the people advocating ketosis actually know what they're talking about.
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it works for me, but it does take time for the body to switch from burning sugar to fat. Gets easier every day. Once there, you then have the ability to notice sugar in foods which before didn't seem like sugar. For example, most fruits taste very sugary, and I always thought they could never taste sweet or sugary enough. And since I don't crave them (for energy) they don't satisfy like before. The initial taste of pleasure is there, but it doesn't last for very long or many bites.
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The acid/alkali theory is nonsense:-
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html)
And besides, raw meats are far less acidic than cooked/processed meats.
From that link:
"When you take in more protein than your body needs, your body cannot store it, so the excess amino acids are converted to organic acids that would acidify your blood. But your blood never becomes acidic because as soon as the proteins are converted to organic acids, calcium leaves your bones to neutralize the acid and prevent any change in pH. Because of this, many scientists think that taking in too much protein may weaken bones to cause osteoporosis."
Surely that makes the acid/alkali theory not a load of bull? It even says in the article, "ALKALINE-ASH FOODS include fresh fruit and raw vegetables. ACID-ASH FOODS include ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS, whole grains, beans and other seeds".
Shouldn't osteoporosis on a high animal food diet be a cause for concern?
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Never heard of a carnivore suffering from osteoporosis
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lex reported that his bone density increased following his meat/organ mix (pet food) only diet.
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From that link:
"When you take in more protein than your body needs, your body cannot store it, so the excess amino acids are converted to organic acids that would acidify your blood...."
Shouldn't osteoporosis on a high animal food diet be a cause for concern?
I'm hearing a hint of the misconception that animal food diet = lots of protein. Indeed, many people do eat more muscle than they need, which could lead to the problem cited in the article, but this would be the fault of eating too much protein, not the fault of eating a lot of animal food.
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Never heard of a carnivore suffering from osteoporosis
Humans aren't carnivores, and unless you're a vet a random person not knowing about possible diseases that animals suffer from doesn't mean much.
lex reported that his bone density increased following his meat/organ mix (pet food) only diet.
Mine was low while I was on keto, but I didn't take a test before or after so I have no comparison.
My testosterone was also low when on ketosis and it's normal/high when not in ketosis.
I'm hearing a hint of the misconception that animal food diet = lots of protein. Indeed, many people do eat more muscle than they need, which could lead to the problem cited in the article, but this would be the fault of eating too much protein, not the fault of eating a lot of animal food.
Uh... what parts of animals other than suet would be low in protein? It's pretty much a given that you will be getting large amounts of protein on a high animal food diet since your two options are meat and fat...
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that's the point, eat more fat, less meat. So so easy to over eat protein (meat)
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Uh... what parts of animals other than suet would be low in protein? It's pretty much a given that you will be getting large amounts of protein on a high animal food diet since your two options are meat and fat...
Bone marrow, subcutaneous fat (not suet), intramuscular fat (not suet). One of my favorite juicy fats is the subcutaneous fat of fish like salmon and mackerel.
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If you eat fish to get the fat you're going to get a lot of protein along with it as well. Same goes for everything else you mentioned besides marrow. Maybe there are some people who don't mind eating suet multiple times a day instead of fruit, but it sure as hell isn't appealing to me. And when I tried it it didn't make me feel good at all.
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Never heard of a carnivore suffering from osteoporosis
It would be interesting to know why though.
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I'm hearing a hint of the misconception that animal food diet = lots of protein. Indeed, many people do eat more muscle than they need, which could lead to the problem cited in the article, but this would be the fault of eating too much protein, not the fault of eating a lot of animal food.
From: Cordain L, Eaton SB, Brand Miller J, Mann N, Hill K. The paradoxical nature of hunter-gatherer diets: Meat based, yet non-atherogenic. Eur J Clin Nutr 2002;56 (suppl 1):S42-S52.
"the diets of hominids living in Europe during the Paleolithic were indistinguishable from top trophic level carnivores such as arctic foxes and wolves."
I've never heard of a pack of wolves leaving a carcass with a load of meat left on it because there wasn't enough fat to go with it
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>> I've never heard of a pack of wolves leaving a carcass with a load of meat left on it because there wasn't enough fat to go with it
Some of us are into optimization of whatever humanity we have. Strength, beauty, health, longevity, fertility, overcoming disease...
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From: Cordain L, Eaton SB, Brand Miller J, Mann N, Hill K. The paradoxical nature of hunter-gatherer diets: Meat based, yet non-atherogenic. Eur J Clin Nutr 2002;56 (suppl 1):S42-S52.
"the diets of hominids living in Europe during the Paleolithic were indistinguishable from top trophic level carnivores such as arctic foxes and wolves."
I've never heard of a pack of wolves leaving a carcass with a load of meat left on it because there wasn't enough fat to go with it
They would also eat the fatty organs, brains and most of the marrow.
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Uh... what parts of animals other than suet would be low in protein? It's pretty much a given that you will be getting large amounts of protein on a high animal food diet since your two options are meat and fat...
Most of the stuff you find at the store will be low fat. Muscle meats, certain organs (liver, heart, kidney). Same thing with wild caught salmon, shrimp, etc. But I do try to moderate my protein intake and keep it under 120 grams a day. You can really go overboard on protein and carbs with a raw diet if you don't find a good source for fat.
I personally don't like suet at all. The hard, chalky texture wasn't appealing to me at all. But I found a good source of "beef fat," which isn't the fat surrounding the organs (like suet), but the fat surrounding the muscle. It's typically very soft, almost like butter. When it's not winter it's usually a cream color and some times even completely yellow. I love the stuff and eat 2.5 oz with each meal to add 500 calories from fat per meal. I also moderate my protein by only eating 5 oz per meal (always chuck roast/beef, unless it's one of my weekly salmon or shrimp meals).
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If you eat fish to get the fat you're going to get a lot of protein along with it as well. Same goes for everything else you mentioned besides marrow. Maybe there are some people who don't mind eating suet multiple times a day instead of fruit, but it sure as hell isn't appealing to me. And when I tried it it didn't make me feel good at all.
You asked about animal sources, but of course there are other sources of fats. I agree with you, in that I don't enjoy suet, either. I buy extra fat during the seasons when the non-kidney fats are yellow from the abundance of grass in the animals' diets. If someone doesn't like these fats, then they would simply eat other fats. With fats, taste is a good indicator of suitability.
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They would also eat the fatty organs, brains and most of the marrow.
Yes I know. I was taking that into account. But, for example a white tailed dear can have as little as 2% body fat by weight (including marrow and brain and all other fats). If the whole of that carcass is eaten, except for bones, hooves, antlers and hide, you would get approx. 17.5% of energy from fat and approx. 82.5% from protein.
Reference: Cordain L, Brand Miller J, Eaton SB, Mann N, Holt SHA, Speth JD. Plant to animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 2000, 71:682-92.
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Anyway, doesn't animal fat result in an acidic potential renal load?
In the article that Tyler provided a link for it says, "ACID-ASH FOODS include ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS".
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yes deer are low in fat, but look up elk, moose (especially the older ones) bison, elephants or hippos...
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Bison are lower in fat than cows. And elephants and hippos? Come on... humans don't eat those animals. Maybe at some point we may have and maybe even now in certain parts of the world but it's extremely unheard of.
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I wasn't suggesting eating hippos or elephants,,, but most likely those are the animals along with water buffaloes and other herd animals that roamed the plains of Africa that primitive hunter gathers feasted on. Yes the meat of bison is lower in fat, but if you read up on the plains indians and early settlers/bison hunters they chose the older ones, especially at end of summer where they had hundreds of pounds of fat stored on their body for the winter months ahead. Most of the mammals and animals in the North pole are also fully fat. This has been a debate for some time with Cordain and others. You can try to prove a point if you look narrow enough. However there have been large regions of the world with animals with large fat stores, and in numbers where protein excesses were most likely wasted in favor of foods people wanted.
There are only a 'few' people researching and teaching low protein, high fat diets,, Ron Rosedale being one of them. Eating a high protein diet doesn't show up as detrimental over the short term, just as eating a high fruit diet doesn't. One thinks everything is fine because it's so hard to note one's health decline since we live in our bodies day to day, and can hardly notice small declines. That's exactly what happens to heavy fruit eaters,,, they feel wonderful when first starting out; all those organic distilled waters in the fruits, so cleansing, so energizing with all the sugars fueling their bodies, and then they have to eat more and more sugar for the same effect, and then the leptin and insulin resistance builds and then a slow downward spiral begins,, with most thinking that they are in some sort of detox, where they need to fast again or they need to move to the tropics because they are now so sensitive to pollutants, that they are so spiritually sensitive that they need to protect themselves from the rest of us.
I'm suggesting something similar happens when we eat too much protein. It turns into blood sugar, we feel good, but at the expense of longevity. Rosedale says something almost unique,,, we weren't designed to live forever, just long enough to pass along our genes and teach our offspring how to survive. I believe that's where science can offer something beyond that of simply following what and how much our ancestors ate,, if that's even possible to know.
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After a few years on almost animals only and high fat and protein my enamel on my teeth is crazy strong told me my dentist. I bet my bones too because this winter I fell 3 times with my bike on plain icy roads I recognised too late.. and I got zero issues....
But I always eat wild greens in summer too. Quite a lot. I always tan when I can, too.
Radiations is a big cause of osteoporosis. And loss of magnetic field. So if you live on 10th floor in a city today..... really bad. Wireless internet everywhere, smart meters.. etc. Those really do no good for your bones. If you are concerned about your bone health, look at those first, and do lots of nude tanning, and earthing.
It is never only one thing. There might be plenty of things missing when our health suffer. We need to look at them all.
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Radiations is a big cause of osteoporosis. And loss of magnetic field. So if you live on 10th floor in a city today..... really bad.
Do you mean that living on the first floor is better for bone health?
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@Haai,
Here is one of the links Tyler gave to show that more recently scientific reviews have dis-proven the acid/alkaline ash theory. These reviews say that eating acid or alkaline forming foods have no correlation to bone health:
"Recent systematic reviews have been published which have methodically analyzed the weight of available scientific evidence, and have found no significant evidence to support the acid-ash hypothesis in regards to prevention of osteoporosis. A meta-analysis of studies on the effect of dietary phosphate intake contradicted the expected results under the acid-ash hypothesis with respect to calcium in the urine and bone metabolism. This result suggests use of this diet to prevent calcium loss from bone is not justified.[7] Other meta-analyses which have investigated the effect of total dietary acid intake have also found no evidence that acid intake increases the risk for osteoporosis as would be expected under the acid-ash hypothesis.[6][8] "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet#Scientific_evaluation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet#Scientific_evaluation)
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Do you mean that living on the first floor is better for bone health?
I think so. Not only for bone health, but for our overall health too. After what I have learned past months I would not ever move to any floor above the 1st. And certainly NOT into a city anyways. They have turned into a radiation danger zone for our health... and they continue to get worse..
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@Haai,
Here is one of the links Tyler gave to show that more recently scientific reviews have dis-proven the acid/alkaline ash theory. These reviews say that eating acid or alkaline forming foods have no correlation to bone health:
"Recent systematic reviews have been published which have methodically analyzed the weight of available scientific evidence, and have found no significant evidence to support the acid-ash hypothesis in regards to prevention of osteoporosis. A meta-analysis of studies on the effect of dietary phosphate intake contradicted the expected results under the acid-ash hypothesis with respect to calcium in the urine and bone metabolism. This result suggests use of this diet to prevent calcium loss from bone is not justified.[7] Other meta-analyses which have investigated the effect of total dietary acid intake have also found no evidence that acid intake increases the risk for osteoporosis as would be expected under the acid-ash hypothesis.[6][8] "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet#Scientific_evaluation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_diet#Scientific_evaluation)
Thanks!
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Most of the stuff you find at the store will be low fat. Muscle meats, certain organs (liver, heart, kidney). Same thing with wild caught salmon, shrimp, etc. But I do try to moderate my protein intake and keep it under 120 grams a day. You can really go overboard on protein and carbs with a raw diet if you don't find a good source for fat.
I personally don't like suet at all. The hard, chalky texture wasn't appealing to me at all. But I found a good source of "beef fat," which isn't the fat surrounding the organs (like suet), but the fat surrounding the muscle. It's typically very soft, almost like butter. When it's not winter it's usually a cream color and some times even completely yellow. I love the stuff and eat 2.5 oz with each meal to add 500 calories from fat per meal. I also moderate my protein by only eating 5 oz per meal (always chuck roast/beef, unless it's one of my weekly salmon or shrimp meals).
where do you get your fat from?
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I wasn't suggesting eating hippos or elephants,,, but most likely those are the animals along with water buffaloes and other herd animals that roamed the plains of Africa that primitive hunter gathers feasted on. Yes the meat of bison is lower in fat, but if you read up on the plains indians and early settlers/bison hunters they chose the older ones, especially at end of summer where they had hundreds of pounds of fat stored on their body for the winter months ahead. Most of the mammals and animals in the North pole are also fully fat. This has been a debate for some time with Cordain and others. You can try to prove a point if you look narrow enough. However there have been large regions of the world with animals with large fat stores, and in numbers where protein excesses were most likely wasted in favor of foods people wanted.
There are only a 'few' people researching and teaching low protein, high fat diets,, Ron Rosedale being one of them. Eating a high protein diet doesn't show up as detrimental over the short term, just as eating a high fruit diet doesn't. One thinks everything is fine because it's so hard to note one's health decline since we live in our bodies day to day, and can hardly notice small declines. That's exactly what happens to heavy fruit eaters,,, they feel wonderful when first starting out; all those organic distilled waters in the fruits, so cleansing, so energizing with all the sugars fueling their bodies, and then they have to eat more and more sugar for the same effect, and then the leptin and insulin resistance builds and then a slow downward spiral begins,, with most thinking that they are in some sort of detox, where they need to fast again or they need to move to the tropics because they are now so sensitive to pollutants, that they are so spiritually sensitive that they need to protect themselves from the rest of us.
I'm suggesting something similar happens when we eat too much protein. It turns into blood sugar, we feel good, but at the expense of longevity. Rosedale says something almost unique,,, we weren't designed to live forever, just long enough to pass along our genes and teach our offspring how to survive. I believe that's where science can offer something beyond that of simply following what and how much our ancestors ate,, if that's even possible to know.
Interesting. I guess that reinforces what I read from a book on nutrition... our genes find ways to survive (getting us addicted to the SAD, reproducing, than letting our bodies die out)
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The acid/alkali theory is nonsense:-
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html)
And besides, raw meats are far less acidic than cooked/processed meats.
Is there a better article?
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This video seems relevant for this topic--this vegetarian Shaolin monk is an interesting counterpoint to the stereotype of weak vegetarians, and regardless of one's opinion of this, it's just cool to watch:
Shaolin Monk Balances On 2 Fingers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LkhVeW7VV0#)