Author Topic: Can we do without vegetables/greens?  (Read 72551 times)

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2012, 06:37:32 pm »

tyler, i don't know your blood type but based on d'adamo's research and your problems with dairy i'd say you're type O. is that right?
Yes, except for the fact that more people are type O than otherwise, and most people with other blood-types tend to find adamo's ideas do not work for them at all. His type O diagnosis only works because it is palaeo-oriented.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #126 on: November 06, 2012, 09:46:30 pm »
Being a raw paleo site Bio - I think most people here would suggest getting rid of the dairy instead and increasing your raw fat and organ intake. So many people have trouble with dairy that it seems like it would be the most likely candidate for the acne. I'm gathering that your meat is all grass-fed right? I might have missed it but I didn't catch you talking about your fat and/or organ meat intake. Just that could effect how your body handles the muscle meat I would think.

The blood type diet is one I didn't try, but I can't help why you would want to try that before trying raw paleo? 

Offline Bio-shell Avatar

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2012, 10:41:54 pm »
dorothy, i'm eating a primal diet right now. i started with cooked meat 5 months ago and went all raw about 6 weeks ago. the acne and back pain problems started about 2 or 3 weeks into the raw phase. during the months prior to it when i cooked the meat i didn't have these problems, most likely because most of these lectins got denatured or whatever. during that time i was already drinking raw milk, though no kefir. based on the blood type theory that should have created more problems than kefir but didn't. of course i don't want to go back and eat cooked meat but maybe i really don't digest raw meat very well.

one possibility could be that the AGEs that are formed during cooking are actually these lectins binding to glucose receptors in cells, thus getting inactivated. however, if eaten raw and there's some incompatibility with the blood type, the meat lectins would all still be there to attach to glucose receptors in the gut lining (which exist in a form that allows binding only with certain blood types such as A), destroying it, making it leaky, creating inflammation and so on, which then creates further problems elsewhere, not unlike gluten. any ideas on this?

in terms of fat i'm currently limited to butter (a no no according to the blood type diet, who would have thought?), flax oil and the little fat that's on the beef. i don't eat fatty/organ meats right now because i can't find any raw grass fed ones here in germany (hence my question to löwenherz). all i can order online is muscle meat or liver. i've asked butchers around here if they sell organs when hunters bring in their game but was told that usually they keep the organs for themselves and, if anything, sell some of the meat.

i've tried to buy indican test strips online but couldn't find any. that test would indicate if i don't digest animal proteins properly. maybe i can get some from a doctor, otherwise elimination seems to be the only way to find out what's up. i'm actually doing very well on the primal diet. i have no apparent digestive problems and my muscles keep increasing in size and strength at a nice rate but as long as these two problems (well, and dark circles under the eyes) exist there's still work to be done. i really thought raw paleo would finally be the right diet for me but it looks like i have to keep experimenting.

tyler, thanks for the links! i'm going to check them out now. i really hope you're right and he's wrong  ;D

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #128 on: November 07, 2012, 12:11:58 am »
The dark circles under the eyes and back pain in the center does point to possible kidney issues popping up. It's interesting that you ate just as much cooked meat before and didn't have the problem, but then when eating it raw did! Besides adding the kefir to your milk repertoire, was that the only change?

I'd like to point out something that I think many don't take into account. When you are starting a change in diet sometimes there can be coincidences. Some reactions can take a while to build up and if you are changing things over weeks time instead of many months or years the change in what is being eaten can be mistakenly taken as the cause when it is actually something that has been building from another source or is a coincidence or an infection or detox symptom.

So, I caution you to be careful with assumptions regarding causality when you have been experimenting for such a short time. That being said, your assumption atm is the most likely correct one because of the correspondence - but it is wise to keep an open mind and do your experimenting on yourself with the understanding that your experimentation is by it's nature flawed with only one test subject for such a short period of time.

I have assumptions that I have made regarding generally the superiority of raw foods to cooked ones from my own experiences and what I have heard reported here generally so if it were me, I think before trying cooked meat again what I would do first is just cut down the amount of meat being eaten as a whole especially when you don't have access to the amount of fats and organs that so many here have reported to be important when balancing the proteins. I know for myself that I need to eat an inordinate amount of fat to balance muscle meats and do well at all with them. If the nature of the cooked meats and how it interacts with your system works at a certain amount of meat, it does not necessarily mean that the same amount of raw meat will necessarily react in the same way and therefore it might be a question of amount or degree rather than returning to cooked. It might be better to eat just a small amount of raw meat with your limited fat and organs than to return to cooked meat.... but it is my guess, and it is certainly just a guess... that eating less raw meat, more fat with your butter (and maybe you can get some avocados etc. for more fats) might be all that is necessary and worth a shot. Since you are on the primal diet do you also drink fresh juices and eat one fruit a day? How about eggs? How do those seem to effect you?

.

Offline Bio-shell Avatar

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #129 on: November 07, 2012, 12:39:26 am »
one possibility could be that the AGEs that are formed during cooking are actually these lectins binding to glucose receptors in cells, thus getting inactivated. however, if eaten raw and there's some incompatibility with the blood type, the meat lectins would all still be there to attach to glucose receptors in the gut lining (which exist in a form that allows binding only with certain blood types such as A), destroying it, making it leaky, creating inflammation and so on, which then creates further problems elsewhere, not unlike gluten. any ideas on this?

i've thought a bit more about the above. maybe someone can comment on this and lmk if i'm right or wrong:

- when sugar molecules bind to protein molecules in cell walls in an unwanted fashion (without the help of enzymes - called glycation) this creates AGEs
- lectins are proteins that bind to sugar molecules in cell walls (let's call it "lectination" for sake of argument), creating a similar end result - AGEs
- AGEs are formed when food is heated
- lectins are (partially or mostly) inactivated when food is heated
- so the reason for the creation of AGEs by heating food, meat in this case, is that lectins bind to sugar molecules in cell walls, since there's no actual sugar in meat (except as glycogen in muscle meat or liver but as mentioned before the end result is the same anyway)
- most, if not all, people don't experience acute reactions to heated foods, even if incompatible to their blood type
- most, if not all, people experience chronic symptoms / degeneration / inflammation after long-term exposure to foods that are incompatible to their blood type (a good example would be gluten which is more or less harmful for every human)
- many people experience more or less acute reactions if food that's incompatible to their blood type is eaten raw (some might call it allergic reactions)
- conclusion: the reason why wrong foods that are heated only create problems after long-term exposure is because most lectins are inactivated outside the body, during the heating process. that forms AGEs which are certainly harmful in excess and in the long run but prevents "lectination" in the gut

bottom line is that, unless one eats only raw foods that are compatible with one's blood type, it's better to eat incompatible foods heated, where most of the lectins are already deactivated before ingestion, instead of eating these foods raw where all the lectins are still active and create havoc with the intestinal lining. in my case (blood type A) this would explain why i react with acne and possibly kidney problems to raw meat but not to cooked meat.

case in point, doesn't aajonus eat raw honey together with raw butter or eggs or milk or something? maybe there are sugar molecules in honey to which most of the lectins in these protein foods can bind, thus getting inactivated. this would reduce the damage to the gut lining considerably.

Offline Bio-shell Avatar

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #130 on: November 07, 2012, 01:07:03 am »
dorothy, thanks for your comment. i'll definitely keep an open mind but as you can see in my previous post, it could very well be the case that while raw food is indeed the most healthy, it can also be the most detrimental if one is incompatible to it. for me my explanation makes sense. i'd like to know how others think about it.

as regards the amount of raw vs cooked meat, i've considered this too because the raw meat protein would be undenatured and thus more bioavailable but i'm already consuming much less than most others here. i believe it would just reduce the negative effects but not prevent them.

as for eggs, i've tried raw eggs and had similar but even more immediate reactions to them as far as acne goes. apparently my body tries to detoxify unwanted animal protein complexes mainly via the skin, be it eggs, meat or perhaps even dairy.

i'll keep eating butter for the time being because the coconut oil experiment didn't turn out too well either, and because i can't stand the taste of avocados or olives. as far as raw food goes, i guess i'll just have to try some of the foods the blood type doctor recommends for type A, ignoring the obviously unhealthy ones such as grains or soy, and see how that works. i'd like to keep eating low carb but under these conditions and provided i stay 100% raw it will be almost impossible to not raise the amount of carbs to, imo, unhealthy levels. type B or O don't have these problems on a raw paleo or a primal diet, they can either up their dairy  (B) or meat intake (O) but type A just doesn't seem to be suited to either one. i could try fish but since our oceans are deliberately being poisoned that would create other problems in the long run (mercury, radiation, bpa, xenoestrogens,...)

Offline LePatron7

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #131 on: November 07, 2012, 01:12:12 am »
bottom line is that, unless one eats only raw foods that are compatible with one's blood type

I'd just like to point out that there's not to much validity to the blood type diet, and basing your dietary views on it isn't going to do you much good.

I'd also like to point out that whether you read a diet book about the blood type diet, raw vegan, frutarian, paleo, raw paleo, or primal. They're all going to portray a convincing story that will make you want to eat THAT diet.

You're most likely experiencing problems from the dairy. Most who have problems with dairy don't have symptoms till much later. You claim it was fine when you first started. But it may be a problem now.

Consider eliminating dairy first, and seeing how you do without it. I don't think the blood type diet is vaiid, a lot of recomendations are not good ones.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #132 on: November 07, 2012, 02:37:37 am »
Bio - the theory you stated above is plausible as are most theories. The problem is that there have been no studies to verify it just like there are no studies on most diets. The best you can do is test it on yourself and see. I eat very little protein - I do much better on less - so not everyone here eats lots of protein. I don't know my blood type.

You could be reacting to dairy or the raw meat or a host of other things. It does seem like in your situation with your suppositions that the most direct avenue to experiment with your theories would be to go back to eating cooked meat for a period keeping everything as it is and see if all your symptoms go away.

If they do - then I will pick your brains in depth on blood types etc. ;D

Offline zbr5

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #133 on: November 07, 2012, 02:48:48 am »
Sorry for jumping in the middle of this interesting conversation but I wanted to add few words re daily protein and meat intake. 

When I read Nora's book for the first time (and I agree it is definitely the best book on the subject and the one that I usually recommend to "laymen"), I found her recommendations of protein/meat intake  ridiculous - way too small. But I gave it a try to see how it would make me feel and it happened to be one of the best diet's improvements I made last years. It is definitely much better for me to eat moderate amounts of meat (~200 g ~ 7 ounces a day).

And someone asked here, what she writes on cooked vs raw meat, in her book. Well, she does write a lot about it. She just agrees that the less processed meat is, the better for us. And she praises sushi or traditional meals like raw tartare for their health benefits.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 04:09:29 am by TylerDurden »

Offline Bio-shell Avatar

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #134 on: November 08, 2012, 11:36:49 pm »
ok, here's an update.

i stopped eating raw meat three days ago but continued with everything else (kefir, yogurt, raw butter etc.) as usual. yesterday morning my throat was clogged with mucus and hurt somewhat, which has continued through today. i'd say it's a developing cold but usually colds get worse after a day or two and include a clogged nose and perhaps a cough. i have none of these things and it doesn't seem to get worse either. my theory would be that it's a detox reaction. i believe it's not uncommon to detox in this fashion.

the acne is also getting better, no new outbreaks of any kind, skin is clearing up nicely. lower back pain has gotten better, too. i used to notice it after sitting a long time on the pc and then getting up and by now it's become much less noticable. guess it will be gone completely in another few days.

i'm currently reading one of dr. d'adamo's latest books which deals with 6 geno-types and the diets he has developed for them. for those who don't know it - there are certain genes which are expressed together, such as the yellow coat and obesity in agouti mice. it's the same with humans. for instance, the blood type, or the length of certain fingers, or other body parts, or finger prints, express together with certain aspects of metabolism. an example would be high stomach acid and blood type O or low stomach acid and blood type A. this can be expanded to the immune system, endocrine system etc. it's very interesting.

now, dr. d'adamo has identified 6 different types who all have differences in metabolism and so on which correlate to differences in appearance. i've made the test, which says i'm the "teacher" type, and what he describes as main issues for the teacher type and what these types should eat is uncannily similar to what i experienced myself.

anyway, he writes that "teacher" genotypes should avoid all kinds of red meat. my guess would be that because of the low stomach acid it's very hard to digest and the undigested protein causes problems - exactly what i experienced when i ate raw beef daily. it was much less pronounced when i ate it cooked, most likely because of what i wrote previously - the protein got denatured, formed AGEs and thus wasn't able to wreak as much havoc in my guts as in its raw form.

now, what he recommends for "teacher" types is certain kinds of fish, veggies, fruits, nuts and seeds, certain grains (except wheat), fermented dairy products and soy. i'm probably not going to try soy or grains and i know for a fact that fruits don't do me good because of bacterial overgrowth. interestingly enough, he mentioned just this as the major problem of "teacher" types, bacterial overgrowth. maybe he's not aware that bacteria or yeasts thrive on sugar, especially fructose.

well, i guess what i want to say is that if you have any kind of problem and can't figure out the reason don't dismiss the blood type or geno-type diet without trying it. i'm going to follow it for a while, with some alterations, and will post some updates in the journals occasionally.

imo, the main reason why people have so many problems when they try to eat healthy is because they think that raw foods are better. that may well be the case if you can digest them properly and you don't have any intolerances to them, but if you do, they'll do much more harm if raw compared to cooked, and the reason is lectins and similar compounds. i'd not have believed it before but even such things as dark circles under the eyes seem to be, in my case and probably that of others, a telltale sign of incompatibility to certain raw foods. they disappear if i limit raw food intake and get the bulk of my calories from cooked food. one major exception to this may be fat, simply because it doesn't contain protein which can cause trouble, but in general i'd say that "teacher" types such as myself will always have problems if too much food is eaten raw because of the low stomach acid and possibly other "disorders" that go along with it.

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #135 on: November 09, 2012, 12:43:17 am »
@löwenherz - do you know any sources in germany where i can buy grass-fed organ meats and glands? apart from liver i've had no luck so far.
Hi,

you can find meat selling hunters on this website:

www.wild-auf-wild.de

Regarding grass fed beef and organs, look for Galloway and Highland cattle farms. These two breeds are winterproof and often 100% grass-fed:

www.highland.de
www.galloway-deutschland.de

Schleswig-Holstein is the grass-fed paradise in continental europe:

Look at

www.galloway.de

and here are some excellent sources:

www.geniesserland-sh.de

Löwenherz

Offline Löwenherz

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #136 on: November 09, 2012, 12:49:17 am »
Sorry for jumping in the middle of this interesting conversation but I wanted to add few words re daily protein and meat intake. 

Hi zbr5,

what is you favourite source of fat?

Löwenherz

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #137 on: November 09, 2012, 05:49:57 am »
Bio - you did an experiment for just ONE day and made such sweeping conclusions.

One day could just be placebo or the mucous could be other than detox. I'm going to let you give it some time and then I would very much like to hear more. 

Offline zbr5

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #138 on: November 09, 2012, 06:25:45 am »
Hi zbr5,

what is you favourite source of fat?

Löwenherz


Hi LH, my favourite fat is just meat in any form. I especially like raw salmon .

Offline Bio-shell Avatar

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #139 on: November 10, 2012, 06:33:02 pm »
dorothy, of course you're right. even though it was three days, not just one, it's a very short period to draw any conclusions. nevertheless i can't deny that i noticed obvious improvements, especially where the acne is concerned, a mere 2-3 days after going off the raw meat. my skin has since cleared up and the dark circles under my eyes have become much less pronounced.

during the last few days i've taken the time and looked a bit deeper into the blood-/genotype discussion and while many people and scientists have tried to debunk it their arguments don't convince me, especially in light of my own (immediate) experiences and the overwhelmingly positive reports of many others.

also, the science behind the genotype theory makes sense to me, how certain metabolic, immune or endocrine genes/conditions express themselves together with certain physical traits and blood types.

imo there's still a lot to be learned re the different types, and the recommendations of dr. d'adamo don't always make sense to me based on what i've read elsewhere. for instance, he seems to be a stout believer of the myth that saturated fat causes arteriosclerosis, and even recommends to type O (the red meat eaters) to focus on lean cuts, but from what i've learned i can't even imagine how such a thing would be possible since saturated fats basically raise hdl and the large type of ldl, while it is clearly carbs, especially fructose, that raise triglycerides, vldl and the small ldl type - and these are the threats to cardiovascular health. so there are certainly flaws in his reasoning and no doubt many of his recommendations are not based on adverse lectin reactions but his faulty beliefs regarding fats.

so anyway, i'm going to try a modified genotype diet now. it will still be low-carb, without fruit or any source of fructose, and with focus on veggies (both raw and steamed) and fish, and as for dairy products it will only include raw butter. so i'm going to drop all other dairy products as well, like some people here on the forum recommended. no more kefir, yogurt or cheese for a month or so at least. maybe i'll try to reintroduce kefir, yogurt or whey protein again at some point just to see if i get any adverse reactions but for now i'll try to limit my food choices to cooked fish, steamed broccoli or cauliflower, raw sauerkraut, raw salads (w/o tomatoes), flax oil, raw butter and perhaps the occasional walnut. no point in complicating matters with lots of different foods if 10 or 15 different varieties suffice. thanks to my exceptionally low metabolism i'm unlikely to experience any hunger or weight-loss even with such a limited fat and protein intake and almost no carbs, and if it doesn't work i'll just increase the amount of fish. i'll notice soon enough if my strength from one workout to the next no longer increases.

Offline Barefoot Instincto

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #140 on: November 11, 2012, 01:34:41 am »
I find that I do really well on large amounts of fruits and vegetables, as long as I don't combine different food types and try and keep it to large amounts of single types of fruits and veg's when I can.

I'd say I generally eat 3 or 4 servings of fruit daily, sometimes 2, rarely more than 4. Then I'd also consume something along the lines of a whole large cucumber, or two big bell peppers, or a head of greens etc for that day. I'm going to have sprouts ready to harvest pretty soon (only doing the good veg types like broccoli, garlic, cabbage) so I'll be eating a couple pounds of those per week, and damn excited about it (living, growing plant products are in my mind the healthiest thing for you, above meat).

I find that I maybe eat about a half pound of meat per day on average. Sometimes a a third of a pound, sometimes a pound. It varies.

As for nuts, I used to eat way too many (especially the cooked process ones) and still do, so I've switched over instead to sprouted almonds the last few days, which is much more satisfying (I've been having the most quality bowel movements of my life). I think I'll stick to about 50 grams of these per day while introducing a bit of other raw nuts like pecans.

I've heard people highly recommend against the eating of large quantities of nuts, but it seems very vague. Some people advocate 100 grams or more per day, others only an ounce, saying it can be really harmful to you in the long term with large amounts. But does this apply to the alkaline rich raw sprouted, LIVING almonds? It feels to me that 100 grams per day of these does me much more good than harm. A single bag of potato chips feels like it would be more of a toxic load on your body than pounds of almonds, eaten the right way.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #141 on: November 11, 2012, 02:00:21 am »
A single bag of potato chips feels like it would be more of a toxic load on your body than pounds of almonds, eaten the right way.
Sure, and even a single potato chip as long as you don't eat more almonds than just the amount you need at the moment! This can vary widely between zero and a ton.  ;) I don't eat nuts everyday, but sometimes I eat a lot of them.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #142 on: November 11, 2012, 02:47:49 am »
dorothy, of course you're right. even though it was three days, not just one, it's a very short period to draw any conclusions. nevertheless i can't deny that i noticed obvious improvements, especially where the acne is concerned, a mere 2-3 days after going off the raw meat. my skin has since cleared up and the dark circles under my eyes have become much less pronounced.


I hadn't realized that you had already gone back to cooked meat when I had made the suggestion to do so. After 3 days that's some nice improvements!

Now I wish I knew my blood type. I bet that information is somewhere in my stores of papers in storage. Maybe one day I will find it.

In the meantime - is there a synopsis on-line somewhere of the ideas you have been reading about. If not, what would be the book you would suggest?

I'm wondering if I could guess my blood type just by reading what the suggestions are for the different bloodtypes and correlate that with what I know to be good for me?

Offline Alive

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #143 on: November 11, 2012, 03:48:10 am »
How about vitamin K?

I have been reading reports that vit K provides protection against tooth decay, and recommend eating liver.
However nutritional data . com says that greens have far more K  than liver, so whats going on here?

Is it that the K is hard to extract from greens, or that gut bacteria make more K from animal products, or that animal fat is needed to store and transport K?

And then there is also the high folate content of greens.

It seems that greens are very healthy for us.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #144 on: November 11, 2012, 11:56:42 am »
There are different forms of vit k oddly enough. Weston A. Price was really into it thinking that it was a magical mysterious missing element.

Bleeders use greens to stop the bleeding because the vitamin k is a blood coagulator. It's pretty important in that regard too. Since I can't stand liver, maybe that's why I like greens so much?

Offline Bio-shell Avatar

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #145 on: November 15, 2012, 10:19:10 pm »
dorothy, the book i read recently by dr d'adamo is called "change your genetic destiny". it's better than the blood type books because it incorporates other aspects of the body (other genes) as well. you can probably make an educated guess just from the measurements you take of your body and your previous experience with certain foods, without knowing your blood type. there's certainly a lot of stuff in there i don't agree with but you don't have to take his food recommendations to heart in order to gain other useful knowledge from the book.

a brief update re the acne problem. i had a flare up again a few days ago and decided yesterday to make a liver cleanse (last one was almost a year ago i believe) in order to see if it's caused by obstructed bile ducts but that doesn't seem to be the case. all that came out so far was plenty of bright green bile, not a single stone or any kind of grit. guess my gut flora hasn't healed yet and once the undigested protein fragments, immune complexes and whatnot have all been removed the acne will vanish, too. the lower back pain is pretty much gone already.

re vitamin k - the one for blood coagulation is vitamin k1 (found in green veggies etc.), the one weston a. price called "activator x" is vitamin k2, found exclusively in animal products (such as raw butter from grass fed animals, or liver) and fermented foods such as natto (best source for it afaik). so you don't get vitamin k2 from plants unless bacteria have produced it during fermentation. it's said to be very important to deliver calcium from the blood into the bones and works in concert with vitamins d and a.

Offline MaximilianKohler

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #146 on: November 17, 2012, 09:33:43 am »
On a ketogenic high fat diet you can eat as much nuts and low sugar vegetables as you want without leaving ketosis. Even vegan diets can be ketogenic, raw or cooked. The key point here is sugar.
This is wrong. A ketogenic diet is when you starve yourself of all carbohydrates and your body starts to create elevated levels of ketone bodies from fat to use for energy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis

In order to get into ketosis you have to eat 0 carbs for up to a week. Then you have to keep your carbs under 20-50g per day. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gZfJejOM8fJsX1iCilmnpp1qmT_KncJwWCR4-EsaEHc/edit?pli=1

It has solely to do with carbohydrates. Sugars just happen to be a carbohydrate.  You said you eat lots of nuts. Look at how many carbs are in nuts: http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/carbcounts/a/Carbs-Fats-And-Calories-In-Nuts-And-Seeds.htm

It's a lot! Take peanuts for example.  The more common nut. It has 4.5 carbs per ounce.  36 carbs in 1 cup. When I eat nuts I often eat 2+ cups at once.  Cashews and almonds have significantly more. Then you have to calculate the carbs in everything else you eat. Most vegetables are low in carbs but they do have some that add up.

This leads me to believe that you think you're in ketosis but you actually aren't.

i have a request. could those of you who have found their ideal diet please describe it briefly and include their blood type?
My blood type is AB negative. I've tried:
Cooked vegan - lots of sweet potato, legumes, vegetables, and maybe some fruit. I felt kind of "empty" and craved meat. I felt similar emptiness and meat craving on 80/10/10rv.
80/10/10 raw vegan - eat fruit all day with 1 big vegetable meal at the end of the day.
Raw paleo ketosis - only meat fat and low carb vegetables like greens.
Raw paleo - fruit, meat, fat, vegetables, nuts. I've also tried raw dairy.

The ideal diet for me is raw paleo with no nuts or dairy and only watery fruits(ex: no bananas or dates). I eat some beef or lamb fat after eating fruit. I eat 2-3 meals of fruit & fat, 1-2 meals of meat, ~1 meal of vegetables. I eat instinctively and don't mix different types of food(except for fruit + fat together) in the same meal.

This was my experience with 80/10/10rv:
I had high hopes for this diet but it turned out to be as dangerous as it sounds. I tried the diet for about a month. I read people's reviews and warnings and did the diet perfectly - 80/10/10rv. I ate LOTS of fruit and had a huge meal of vegetables at the end of the day.

Hair loss: The first time I took a shower after starting the diet my hands were covered in hair after shampooing. It was pretty scary. The hair loss is slowing down now after stopping the diet for a few weeks.

My gums started to recede, my teeth were visibly grinding down; two of them chipped.

I think some of it has to do with the acidity that fruit leaves in your mouth. You're not supposed to brush your teeth after eating fruit because the acid temporarily softens the enamel and the toothbrush then wears it away. But if you're eating fruit all day it makes it difficult to find a time to brush, and if you don't brush then it leaves your mouth acidic the whole day(which is what I did - only brushed once a day).
I think the solution would be to eat some type of vegetable after every single meal in order to neutralize the acid, but I'm not willing to risk trying this diet again.


This was my experience with raw paleo ketosis:

Keto has to be the worst thing along with 80/10/10 Raw Vegan that I have ever done for my health.

During keto I got all the usual negative symptoms associated with a the diet.  Brain fog, fatigue, anxiety, heart palpitations, & a kidney stone. For over a year I kept at this diet because people said: it takes a week for your body to adapt, it can take 1-3 months to adapt, it could take more than a year to adapt but it's the best thing ever.

After bringing back fruit into my diet all the symptoms slowly went away.

Not to mention your daily diet every day on raw keto can be extremely bland & monotonous; especially without any plant foods!

A varied diet would look something like: for breakfast you eat chicken, for lunch you eat beef, for dinner you eat seafood, for snacks you eat fat. Every single day.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 11:19:06 am by TylerDurden »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #147 on: November 17, 2012, 11:29:31 am »
MK's experience re diet was much like mine. Agree re ketosis definition etc.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #148 on: November 17, 2012, 10:37:14 pm »
i've thought a bit more about the above. maybe someone can comment on this and lmk if i'm right or wrong:

- when sugar molecules bind to protein molecules in cell walls in an unwanted fashion (without the help of enzymes - called glycation) this creates AGEs
- lectins are proteins that bind to sugar molecules in cell walls (let's call it "lectination" for sake of argument), creating a similar end result - AGEs
- AGEs are formed when food is heated
- lectins are (partially or mostly) inactivated when food is heated
- so the reason for the creation of AGEs by heating food, meat in this case, is that lectins bind to sugar molecules in cell walls, since there's no actual sugar in meat (except as glycogen in muscle meat or liver but as mentioned before the end result is the same anyway)
- most, if not all, people don't experience acute reactions to heated foods, even if incompatible to their blood type
- most, if not all, people experience chronic symptoms / degeneration / inflammation after long-term exposure to foods that are incompatible to their blood type (a good example would be gluten which is more or less harmful for every human)
- many people experience more or less acute reactions if food that's incompatible to their blood type is eaten raw (some might call it allergic reactions)
- conclusion: the reason why wrong foods that are heated only create problems after long-term exposure is because most lectins are inactivated outside the body, during the heating process. that forms AGEs which are certainly harmful in excess and in the long run but prevents "lectination" in the gut

bottom line is that, unless one eats only raw foods that are compatible with one's blood type, it's better to eat incompatible foods heated, where most of the lectins are already deactivated before ingestion, instead of eating these foods raw where all the lectins are still active and create havoc with the intestinal lining. in my case (blood type A) this would explain why i react with acne and possibly kidney problems to raw meat but not to cooked meat.

case in point, doesn't aajonus eat raw honey together with raw butter or eggs or milk or something? maybe there are sugar molecules in honey to which most of the lectins in these protein foods can bind, thus getting inactivated. this would reduce the damage to the gut lining considerably.

Yes, I've read a number of sources that indicate that raw food causes acute problems, and cooked/processed foods cause more chronic problems.  This has been my experience as well.

For instance, Chinese Medicine doctors will say that the tongue coating changes slowly over time.  This is true if you're eating a lot of cooked food.  I've seen this with my own tongue.  However, I've seen my tongue coating change completely within a few hours and even minutes after going raw. I've seen this happen multiple times.

Offline Barefoot Instincto

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Re: Can we do without vegetables/greens?
« Reply #149 on: November 18, 2012, 02:15:22 am »
I think some of it has to do with the acidity that fruit leaves in your mouth. You're not supposed to brush your teeth after eating fruit because the acid temporarily softens the enamel and the toothbrush then wears it away. But if you're eating fruit all day it makes it difficult to find a time to brush, and if you don't brush then it leaves your mouth acidic the whole day(which is what I did - only brushed once a day).
I think the solution would be to eat some type of vegetable after every single meal in order to neutralize the acid, but I'm not willing to risk trying this diet again.

I read a book recently by Frederic Patenaude, who is a raw vegan who does 80/10/10 and says to be doing it extremely successfully based on a few changes he had to make due to a very failing of health. I found it useful for many tips, although my diet is much different than his. It was also a neat story to read about his involvement in the California raw food movement (he met many of the raw "guru's").

Among some of his suggestions were not to snack on fruit all day like most people were doing. He says you need to cram in enough fruit calories in 2 meals, and then have something like a big salad with avocado or a few nuts or something like that. The key is to eat enough fruit (and enough greens!) Most people don't, and think they do.

He claims that the benefits of this diet don't come from the raw foods. They help, but the main benefit comes from abstaining from cooked foods, and unnatural, harmful foods. I agree with many of his ideas, but I personally don't think a diet of mostly just fruit is healthy (and would be very unsatisfying). It has deficiencies unless you supplement.

Another recommendation was to brush 3 times a day, for a total of about 10 minutes, very gently. In his younger days he ended up destroying his teeth (basically 40 fillings within 5 or 6 years). Now that he does what he does, he has no problems with his teeth.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 03:10:25 am by Barefoot Instincto »

 

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