Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum
Other Raw-Animal-Food Diets (eg:- Primal Diet/Raw Version of Weston-Price Diet etc.) => Raw Weston Price => Topic started by: Satya on August 24, 2015, 07:47:07 pm
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Hi, it's me. Been awhile. I have been off all forums for some time as I have been busy. I am eating some raw, and have been thinking lately how it always makes me feel best to eat mostly rvaf... and have visited here, but did not get off my intentions to come back until now. This is important.
A good friend of mine forwarded this apparently damning information about Green Pastures as well as WAPF's apparent desire to suppress the facts in order to not hurt the owner of Green Pastures. The article is from Dr. Kaayla Daniel, a long time WAPF contributor and (maybe former?) VP of WAPF. She had independent labs test the oil and found that the oil is not even from cod, and it only gets worse. I realize that some here would not flinch at eating rotting flesh, so maybe that part of the report won't be such a big deal. But when a product is advertised as one thing to people...well, people have the right to know what they are buying.
I guess I cannot post links since I am new. Go to drkaayladaniel dot com and find the pdf file she has on site. You may have to give first name and email to get it. It is an orange image with a fish in a bottle entitled Hook, Line and Stinker!...
I bought 2-3 bottles of this Blue Ice fclo over the years, and I never did get through half of it any one time before throwing it out. It never sat right with me as it is processed and made me feel burpy and gross for some hours afterwards. Glad I followed my gut and intuition. I know some people are force feeding this on their kids, and I know of one person who may have been adversely affected by taking it long term. Let the buyer beware.
Thanks for having me back and I shall look forward to positive contributions over time. Peace.
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Yeah I've tried different cod liver oils, and even have fed some to my children, but they never sat right with me either, and almost all the ones I have seen on the market are processed and contain preservatives( which are labeled as vitamin E) Hardly paleo....
If your into the fatty fish thing, just buy whole fish and eat the livers raw, along with everything else.
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Welcome back, Satya!
I never liked any kind of processed supplements, however raw they were claimed to be. I got a nasty reaction to some raw coconut oil, and got no benefits from Dr Ron's supposedly "raw" thyroid supplements. It is better to get hold of the genuine raw ingredient but the wholesalers make it very difficult to do so.
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Anyone selling actual healthy raw supplements would be instantly put out of business by lawsuits and regulatory compliance type schemes where they just close down their business and confiscate all their products.
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I agree that whole foods are always the best choice. I always come back to that conclusion no matter what processed food fad comes along.
The list of organ/offal foods I can get in the US just keeps decreasing. Even direct from the farm. It seems I may have to raise animals myself or hunt them to get brains, sweetbreads (thymus or pancreas), thyroid, etc. Tongue, heart, liver and kidneys are all available. Guess I should be thankful for that, anyway.
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Welcome back, Satya, and thanks for the heads up. I hadn't used any of that RFCLO for quite a while and wasn't planning on ever buying any more, but unfortunately my sister recently persuaded me to go in with her and some other folks to buy a bottle so they could all get a combined volume discount. Figures. I'll warn her.
My vitamin D level was very low on a mostly-raw VLC Paleo diet and then I got it up to within the normal range after trying a different D3 supplement and while eating more prebiotic foods and kefir, but just barely. Any suggestions on what else to do for low vitamin D? I started using a vitamin D skin cream, hoping I won't need as much oral supplementation, but I wonder if that will really be enough. Dietary resistant starch is thought to help (for ex: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25165393 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25165393)). If so, then maybe I eventually won't need to take supplements. I prefer whole foods too and would like not to have to take any oral supplements, which has always been my goal.
Disappointing that even Dr. Ron, who I learned about after he was highly touted in this forum, was hoodwinked [if K. Daniel's report is accurate]. Goes to show that one [may be] rolling the dice with even allegedly "raw" supplements like the Green Pastures products.
Organ meats have also been becoming increasingly expensive and scarce in my area too--even tongue, heart, liver and kidneys. Hardly any of decent quality left any more in any of the area markets or farmers markets, and the prices of many muscle meats, seafood, eggs and other foods have also been rising. Now the cafeteria at work is saying that there's an egg shortage and they will be less common on the menus.
For some reason, chicken meat dropped in price recently. A rare exception. Could be a fluke. I normally don't buy much in the way of chicken, but the price was hard to resist.
...I never liked any kind of processed supplements, however raw they were claimed to be. I got a nasty reaction to some raw coconut oil, and got no benefits from Dr Ron's supposedly "raw" thyroid supplements. It is better to get hold of the genuine raw ingredient but the wholesalers make it very difficult to do so.
What raw fermented CLO food were you referring to with this:
...the only so-called "supplements" I accept are raw and unprocessed, like the raw royal jelly and the raw, fermented cod liver oil. The very fact that they are not processed makes them a "food" not a "supplement".Also, technically speaking, I don't "need" them as such, I only use them, because, every now and then, I'm forced to eat/drink unpleasant non-rawpalaeo stuff and the cod liver oil makes up for that. http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg18883/#msg18883 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg18883/#msg18883)
Is there a better one than the Green Pastures Blue Ice product? The Green Pastures scandal and past honey scandals make one wonder if even "raw royal jelly" is truly raw or even royal jelly. I never noticed any clear benefit from either (though my vitamin D level wasn't tested while I was trying the RFCLO--only after--so I don't know for sure whether it had any effect on that).
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Anyone selling actual healthy raw supplements would be instantly put out of business by lawsuits and regulatory compliance type schemes where they just close down their business and confiscate all their products.
I, as well as several other people here, have has good results with certain supplements, like vitamin D and various mineral supplements like bone meal, Terramin clay, P5P, and others.
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I did indeed use the green pastures raw cod liver oil for a time before I discarded it as it was not as useful as I had thought.
I once tried an authentic raw royal jelly, bought in the UK, that had to be stored in the fridge and eaten soonest. It tasted horrible(I am sure that if it had been processed even slightly, it would have tasted nice) and did not seem to have much of an effect. Ever since then, I have grave doubts about superfoods and only care if the food I eat is raw and from a wild animal of some sort.
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I, as well as several other people here, have has good results with certain supplements, like vitamin D and various mineral supplements like bone meal, Terramin clay, P5P, and others.
What do you use for vitamin D? Do you use the clay internally, externally, or both?
I have had good results with external clays and had pretty good results with P5P, though it became less of a factor over time, which seems to happen with so many therapeutics. I still use it, but less frequently, which was my goal anyway, and maybe I just need it less.
A D3 supplement did apparently raise my vit D levels, but I'm concerned about the reported risks of oral vitamin D, although the doses I take are considered safe.
I did indeed use the green pastures raw cod liver oil for a time before I discarded it as it was not as useful as I had thought.
I once tried an authentic raw royal jelly, bought in the UK, that had to be stored in the fridge and eaten soonest. It tasted horrible(I am sure that if it had been processed even slightly, it would have tasted nice) and did not seem to have much of an effect. Ever since then, I have grave doubts about superfoods and only care if the food I eat is raw and from a wild animal of some sort.
Check, I probably either forgot or missed your update on that because I don't read all the threads.
I think you were one of the folks that interested me in Dr. Ron's, as you seemed to have high standards, though I haven't bought anything in a while now. What's your opinion of his operation now?
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Here's Green Pastures' response to Dr. Kaayla Daniel's critique:
http://www.greenpasture.org/fermented-cod-liver-oil-butter-oil-vitamin-d-vitamin-a/response-to-questions-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil (http://www.greenpasture.org/fermented-cod-liver-oil-butter-oil-vitamin-d-vitamin-a/response-to-questions-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil)
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theres a huge discussion on wapf here in town about rancid fats now. i just want to tell them all to just eat raw and aged animal foods and dont worry about it, its all those other ferments and beans adn grains and additions to the diet that are causing disbiosis in the guts leading to inflammation...it might actually go over well here, i got one guy eating on raw and aged meats, hes like 60 and a wood worker and also hosts a local television show that promotes ethics in politics(LOL! at the thought) through activism and also consciousness involving the environment and health issues, maybe i can raise a stink about raw meats and health be the next sabertooth....:)
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What do you use for vitamin D? Do you use the clay internally, externally, or both?
I have had good results with external clays and had pretty good results with P5P, though it became less of a factor over time, which seems to happen with so many therapeutics. I still use it, but less frequently, which was my goal anyway, and maybe I just need it less.
A D3 supplement did apparently raise my vit D levels, but I'm concerned about the reported risks of oral vitamin D, although the doses I take are considered safe.
Check, I probably either forgot or missed your update on that because I don't read all the threads.
I think you were one of the folks that interested me in Dr. Ron's, as you seemed to have high standards, though I haven't bought anything in a while now. What's your opinion of his operation now?
I use the Now brand vitamin D, and I use the Terramin clay internally.
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For the record, I think their products helped with my boy's recovery 3 years ago.
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I think you were one of the folks that interested me in Dr. Ron's, as you seemed to have high standards, though I haven't bought anything in a while now. What's your opinion of his operation now?
He had a cheapish operation in that postal delivery to the US mainland was very cheap but he arrogantly insisted on sending everything international by the most expensive option possible and I was also hit by import taxes as the UK government became ever more vigilant. One of the things that the UK government has always been worried about is that, technically speaking, UK goods have about the same price in pounds sterling as the equivalent US goods have, so that it makes more sense for UK customers to buy from the US, but UK customs deliberately watch out and tax any incoming goods. US companies really ought to send their products internationally in anonymous brown paper parcels as though sending them to a friend.
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I, as well as several other people here, have has good results with certain supplements, like vitamin D and various mineral supplements like bone meal, Terramin clay, P5P, and others.
Clay is not a supplement, it's a substance found in it's original form and not something minimally present in a natural substance and then extracted through heat and solvents, like the others.
Maybe the beneficial results you attribute to supplements was just the toxicity from them stopping your body from being able to detoxify.
I used to take a lot of vitamin C supplements, and it would all but stop me from having the very lasting colds and flus I was used to. However, those colds and flus were a way for my body to get rid of toxins. So now, after taking it for 7 years, and only having stopped for the last 8 months, I have a lot of catchup to do. I not only have all the toxins that I wasn't able to eliminate through regular colds and flus, but I also have to deal with the toxicity from the vitamin C itself, plus the stuff it came with in it's various forms (talc, sodium bicarbonate, sugar, and several others.
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EPA and DHA are polyunsaturated oils, and these types of oils are highly unstable and go rancid in the presence of heat, light and oxygen. (Inuit buried fish and they had natural refrigeration.) I think in the case of fish oils, it is far better to get them fresh from the sea and eat the product whole with all the other goodies that come from the unadulterated food. Damaged EPA and DHA are not very good for the human brain. Even Weston Price knew about the rancidity problem. From his book, chapter 16 on the journey to forever site:
When fish oils including cod liver oils are given in too large doses to some patients they experience quite definite symptoms of depression. The available evidence indicates that fish oils that have been exposed to the air may develop toxic substances.
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Also that overdosing with cod liver oil and other fish oils can be definitely detrimental. When packages of cod liver oil are purchased from the trade the material should be received in full containers not exposed to air and when opened should be transferred to small units so it is not progressively oxidized during the period of its use.
Interesting that the Green Pasture rebuttal has in it a new two year shelf life. Of course, that would have to be for the unopened product, because as a liquid, polyunsaturated oils go bad fast when opened. And a rat assay for vitamin D testing? I have been out of the loop, but that seems a pretty indirect way to measure things.
Price did use the cod liver oil for people with serious problems. It was not an everyday dose thing for all people, which is what the WAPF has been pushing. I am a former chapter leader, and I have seen first hand the kind of play on Price's work that goes on there over the course of some years. For Dr. Daniel, who is the current VP of WAPF, to come out against these types of practices, well, I think there must be something to it, as she has nothing to gain from this...that I can tell. This is very similar to what made me cut ties with them years ago. Sally Fallon Morrell knew a ranch was using orange sludge from the FL juice industry in "grassfed" ruminant products, but she left the ranch on their site as a traditional ranch that sold grassfed foods. Her biases overshadow the professionalism that they need to exhibit, imho.
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Clay is not a supplement, it's a substance found in it's original form and not something minimally present in a natural substance and then extracted through heat and solvents, like the others.
Maybe the beneficial results you attribute to supplements was just the toxicity from them stopping your body from being able to detoxify.
I used to take a lot of vitamin C supplements, and it would all but stop me from having the very lasting colds and flus I was used to. However, those colds and flus were a way for my body to get rid of toxins. So now, after taking it for 7 years, and only having stopped for the last 8 months, I have a lot of catchup to do. I not only have all the toxins that I wasn't able to eliminate through regular colds and flus, but I also have to deal with the toxicity from the vitamin C itself, plus the stuff it came with in it's various forms (talc, sodium bicarbonate, sugar, and several others.
I agree that clay is food. I haven't eaten it much, but I use it topically for skin. Is there a good brand? And for that matter, is there a good alternative brand to Green Pasture FCLO for people who feel the need to supplement with it? I know some brands put synthetic vitamins in. Price Pottenger has a clo history, fwiw.
blog.ppnf.org/cod-liver-oil-a-historical-perspective/
Vitamin C does indeed kill viruses. And yes, the body can fight off viruses. But what about something like ebola? And also, what about the fact that most plants and animals can synthesize vitamin c themselves. Only a few mammals have lost that evolutionary advantage, and we happen to be among them. So I tend to think that might be one where supplements might come in handy. Rosehips are really high in vit c, so it's not like commercial pills are the only choice. Might be important for more carnivorous eaters. They often say other predators don't need plants, but those other predators also synthesize it themselves, unlike us.
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Satya, what if anything do you suggest for people with vitamin D levels well below the normal range for whom available sunlight and whole seafood is insufficient? What's your opinion on the new topical vitamin D products that claim to be safer than oral supplements? I didn't "feel a need" to take vitamin D, but my healthcare provider did when she saw my lab report. ;D Thanks in advance.
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Satya, what if anything do you suggest for people with vitamin D levels well below the normal range for whom available sunlight and whole seafood is insufficient? What's your opinion on the new topical vitamin D products that claim to be safer than oral supplements? I didn't "feel a need" to take vitamin D, but my healthcare provider did when she saw my lab report. ;D Thanks in advance.
Hi Phil. First off, as you may remember, I try to avoid making specific recommendations to people about specific things unless they are under my care and it is within my scope of practice. Also, I think we all have different values and comfort levels about what we put into or onto our bodies, and that makes these forums so full of debate and opportunity for learning new perspectives. That said, I have a very good local friend who has been into traditional foods for several years and is a nutritional therapist. I will see her this week and will ask her about what she recommends, as she is able to do this sort of research and stays on top of these things more than I can right now. She is the one who told me about GP FCLO, and she is very strict about what she eats and takes.
One thing I will note is the idea that available sunlight is insufficient for you. This is true for the months of Nov-Feb above 37° N or about May-Aug below 37° S lat. Now, it is true that a 70 year old will have the ability to produce only ~25% of the sunlight as a 20 yo (all other things such as skin tone, location etc being equal). But that ability may still be more than sufficient if you get your ass outside in the middle of the day ~10am-3pm (of course, I don't think you are 70 yo yet either). I do believe that you reside above 40 degrees N latitude, so now is the time to make that appointment with the sun a regular "supplement" to your life. Marine life is also a good source of vitamin d, as you mention. I realize it is easier to pop a pill. And it may even be necessary in some cases to do so to get levels up. I know nothing about the topical supplements of vitamin d, as I have had a busy summer training clients (sometimes in the middle of the day outside when it is an athlete). But really, how much of an effort have you made to try and get sun, which is probably by far the best source available*? How many other good effects does direct sunlight have on us of which we are still unaware?
Anyway, I will get back with you on a recommendation by the weekend. And all facts posted here from this link, which I may not be able to post in its entirety as I am still only a forager here.
* ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/6/1678S.full
Men and women in bathing suits who were exposed to a 1-MED dose of UVB radiation exhibited increases in blood concentrations of vitamin D that were equivalent to those observed with doses of 10 000-20 000 IU of vitamin D (2, 22, 26). Therefore, 1 MED is equivalent to ?10-50 times the recommended adequate intakes, which are 200, 400, and 600 IU for children and adults <50 y, 51-70 y, and ?71 y of age, respectively (2, 22, 26, 27). Studies reported that exposure of ?20% of the body's surface to either direct sunlight or tanning bed radiation was effective in increasing blood concentrations of vitamin D3 and 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 [25(OH)D3] among both young adults and older adults (28–33). Indeed, Chuck et al (33) suggested that the use of UVB lamps in nursing homes in Great Britain was the most effective means of maintaining blood concentrations of 25(OH)D. There appears to be a benefit of higher blood concentrations of 25(OH)D for bone health, because the bone density of teenagers and adults was directly related to their 25(OH)D concentrations (30, 32–35). We found that tanners in Boston had 25(OH)D concentrations (?100 nmol/L) that were >150% higher than those of nontanners (?40 nmol/L) at the end of the winter. Furthermore, the average bone density of the tanners was greater than that of the nontanners (32).
PS. I do not like the idea of tanning beds and would not use them. Maybe it's easy for me to say that at 32° N
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This is an interesting ordeal. I'm a current WAPF chapter leader, and received an email from the foundation yesterday about this exploding controversy. Not surprisingly, the foundation has come out strongly in favor of their long-time position that CLO is good and Green Pastures makes a good product. I suspect there's a sponsorship on the line and the need to maintain that sponsorship is driving WAPF's decisions. I just downloaded KDaniel's report and will read it through if I have time. I find the fact that she wrote the report compelling, as she co-authored Nourishing Broths with Sally just last year so for her to come out against Green Pastures like this will probably hurt her relationship with her co-author and with the foundation more generally. Folks can read a response to allegations against Green Pasture products in this press release from earlier this year: Concerns About Fermented Cod Liver Oil (http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/concerns-about-fermented-cod-liver-oil/). I haven't bought or used Green Pasture products in years, and have no particular desire to.
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Thanks for your insight, Eric. I bet you are right about a sponsorship.
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I agree that clay is food. I haven't eaten it much, but I use it topically for skin. Is there a good brand?
AV swore by terramin clay, because it doesn't come from volcanic activity (and so doesn't have many toxic metals), and because it's sun-dried (and so isn't heated to the point where most of it's uses are gone). If I was going to try one, it'd be that one. It's really expensive tho. Especially if you use it copiously for baths as well as eating, as he recommends. In any case, I remain unconvinced. AV says plants eat rock, we don't eat rock, and then says go eat clay. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I don't know. I do know that herbivores in the wild will eat it to neutralize poisons in the leafy greens and other vegetation they eat. So I'm not opposed to it, and I can see how it could make sense in our toxic environment.
I haven't tried it because it's pretty much impossible to get it where I live, since all imports are basically illegal. I have to find the right guy who will get it for me for bribes, it'd cost like 3 times what it already costs which is really high, and I'm never sure I'll get it. Also I'm worried about them doing all kinds of radioactive scans during shipping to make sure there's no weapons or anything inside. And they may refuse to let it through even with bribes if they don't know what it is and it could be drugs.
Vitamin C does indeed kill viruses. And yes, the body can fight off viruses. But what about something like ebola? And also, what about the fact that most plants and animals can synthesize vitamin c themselves. Only a few mammals have lost that evolutionary advantage, and we happen to be among them. So I tend to think that might be one where supplements might come in handy. Rosehips are really high in vit c, so it's not like commercial pills are the only choice. Might be important for more carnivorous eaters. They often say other predators don't need plants, but those other predators also synthesize it themselves, unlike us.
As per AV's views, I don't believe viruses are a problem. They're not alive, and he believed that our body actually creates them at will in order to detoxify something that cannot be detoxified in any other way. And so if vitamin C destroys them, it's impairing a cleansing process of the body and only making us more unhealthy. Also, I don't think vitamin C supplementation has anything to do with the vitamin C in a natural plant food. And there's been studies that show that people who eat more meat require less vitamin C. I would guess that's only more so for those of us who eat meat in it's natural form.
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Thanks Satya and Eric. Good to have two knowledgeable and bright people looking into the topic.
I hear you, Satya. I won’t blame you if I try something you write positively about and it doesn’t work for me. I’ll take responsibility for my own actions. I know, that’s pretty rare nowadays. :)
I work in a windowless office near the highest latitudes of the USA and my PA said that almost none of her patients have the minimum recommended vitamin D without supplementation. I read somewhere that during much of the winter season that sunlight doesn’t do diddly up here for vit D. So I don’t think sunlight alone is going to do the trick for me. I think many people would love to be able to get all the vitamin D they need from sunlight and unprocessed whole foods, but it’s not that easy in the modern northern world. I don’t know anyone who takes vitamin D supplements just because they want to be reductionist. ;)
Coincidentally, I have indeed been getting more sun recently. The weather cooperated pretty nicely this summer. I’m also curious to put my skin to the test and see how easily I burn. Years ago I burned extremely easily, so that anything more than a half hour in strong sun was risky. My skin has been increasingly less prone to burning since then and heals more quickly. Red clay is supposed to help, so I’ve been curious to see how well I do since I’ve been following Ingrid’s wonderful tip to use red clay (can’t thank her enough for that). So far, so good. I still quickly lose what little color I get, though. Ugh.
The amount of supplementing I did was actually well below what the PA recommended, and I nonetheless was able to nearly double my level and reach the bottom of the normal range, so maybe the alleged vit D benefit from prebiotic and probiotic foods is working some for me. Too soon to tell and too many confounding variables, though, and I wasn't yet up to what are considered really good levels on my last test. I doubt it's a good idea to push it to 70-100 via supplements like some people do, but I suspect that around 30 is still too low, especially given the autoimmunity in my personal and family history.
I’ve also read that one doesn’t need as much vit D once the levels get up above a certain point. I’m hoping that’s true too.
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Also, I don't think vitamin C supplementation has anything to do with the vitamin C in a natural plant food. And there's been studies that show that people who eat more meat require less vitamin C. I would guess that's only more so for those of us who eat meat in it's natural form.
I had read that too, that if you don't eat a lot of carbs, vitamin c is not as necessary. However, that was not my personal experience. I think my requirements remained the same, but I got less shunning most plant foods. I ended up getting more viruses in winter months after about 2 years on mostly meat (and a good portion of that raw, although I did eat bone broths and some cooked meat). Then when I increased the plant foods back, also supplementing with c sometimes in winters, I had no recurrence of the viruses. But that is me, and I think things vary between people.
I do think that herbs are underestimated as a source for vitamins and minerals. They are really strongly flavored, thus tend to be used in smaller amounts. But they can add quite a bit of nutrition, and might be a good option for people eating mostly meats. Dill on raw fish, parsley and such in meats.
I’ve also read that one doesn’t need as much vit D once the levels get up above a certain point. I’m hoping that’s true too.
That would make sense since we store vitamin D. So if you are able to get levels up from dosing in sun and with other sources, you may be fine come winter. Then go back out in spring. It's worked for centuries before industrialization.
Have not heard about the red clay. Interesting.
And thank you for thinking for yourself, Phil. 8)
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My NTP, GAPS friend recommends Apex Energetics K87 Liqua-D™ (http://www.apexenergetics.com/products/k87) as it is made with MCT oil as a carrier and is thus less prone to rancidity. They have some formulas in CLO too. She recommends waiting until decently cool weather to order...probably more of a concern here in Texas.
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theres a huge discussion on wapf here in town about rancid fats now. i just want to tell them all to just eat raw and aged animal foods and dont worry about it, its all those other ferments and beans adn grains and additions to the diet that are causing disbiosis in the guts leading to inflammation.
Jessica, I have been doing better with veggies but want to ferment them. Obviously meat is unrivaled but I feel like sauerkraut is less inflammatory than raw cabbage..
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Frozen Norwegian mackerel is abundant at Asian markets here in Midwest.
I think it is way better than anything bottled.
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My NTP, GAPS friend recommends Apex Energetics K87 Liqua-D™ (http://www.apexenergetics.com/products/k87) as it is made with MCT oil as a carrier and is thus less prone to rancidity. They have some formulas in CLO too. She recommends waiting until decently cool weather to order...probably more of a concern here in Texas.
Thanks Satya! I love your desire to share and help others the best you can.
Here are a couple more responses that have come out. I'm not necessarily endorsing these. I don't know enough to take a position and in general I prefer sharing info and letting folks decide for themselves.
Chris Masterjohn: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2015/08/weighing-in-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil.html (http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2015/08/weighing-in-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil.html)
Questions and Answers About Fermented Cod Liver Oil (FCLO)
Posted on August 28, 2015 by Sally Fallon Morell
http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/questions-and-answers-about-fermented-cod-liver-oil-fclo (http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/questions-and-answers-about-fermented-cod-liver-oil-fclo)
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Not sure how all of this is going to shake out. The WAPF comments, which I received from Sally the day they were released on the website, acknowledges receiving over $20K from Green Pastures. They claim that the money is such a small portion of their budget that it doesn't matter, but if that's true then why take it in the first place? I'm not in a good position to comment on the validity of Daniel's report, but I suspect it's going to hurt Green Pastures whether it's true or not at this point.
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Vegetable fats in cod liver oil aren't going to impress the WAP followers, for sure. He better have a good explanation, or it's going to be a hard candy Christmas at his house this year.
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Chris Masterjohn: http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2015/08/weighing-in-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil.html (http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2015/08/weighing-in-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil.html)
Thanks, Phil. I was on the Native Nutrition yahoo group with Chris from 2004-I dunno when I left. But when I get a chance to read this blog post, I will report back, because it seems he is making reference to that group, whose posts anyone can read, iirc.
On a quick skim, I do see a conflict of interest, which these folks will try and distance themselves from. But I don't think so. When there's money involved, it clouds clear thinking. That is why serious journals require a conflict of interest disclosure for studies in the first place. It's unethical to take money from a manufacturer and then claim that their product is great based on the "science." Last I recall, the WAPF was trying to establish a lab to test these things themselves in an unbiased way. Now it appears the hand is in the cookie jar. But again, this is based on skimming, so I will go read before I comment more.
Vegetable fats in cod liver oil aren't going to impress the WAP followers, for sure. He better have a good explanation, or it's going to be a hard candy Christmas at his house this year.
;) The damage is done, I agree.
And don't most traditional cultures eat liver as fresh and raw as possible?
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I don't know if liver is always eaten fresh or not. I've fermented it, and found it to be OK, as long as it stays wet with its blood.
What was your username on the Native Nutrition group? I was cherimoya kid there too, but I left in 2007 due to ridiculous bias against raw food.
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And don't most traditional cultures eat liver as fresh and raw as possible?
Often fresh and raw, yes, and the Eskimos reportedly also ate fermented cod livers:
> Tomcod liver (Uukkat tinuich) is "excellent ... in the fall when the tomcod "are eating well."
tinaulik: cooled cooked tomcode livers plus berries mashed together. The liver is cooled before mashing so as not to lose the precious liver oil.
> traditionally, during periods of food shortage, every drop of this [tomcod] liver oil was saved because it is exceptionally high in the fat-soluable vitamins A, E, and especially D, which are stored in the body and are crucial for maintaining good health through the long winter. The old Ieupiat didn’t name the vitamins but they knew intuitively that fish livers were important for health.
Anore Jones, Iqaluich Nigiñaqtuat, Fish That We Eat http://alaska.fws.gov/asm/pdf/fisheries/reports/02-023final.pdf (http://alaska.fws.gov/asm/pdf/fisheries/reports/02-023final.pdf)
Of course, that doesn't guarantee it's healthy, but it does call into question the notion that it's lethal or extremely toxic in whatever doses they allegedly ate them, and whether the Green Pastures products are really of the same or better quality is of course a question.
The Eskimos also reportedly ate stink (fish) heads, stink (walrus) flipper, "fermented" seal oil (meaning the non-oil parts are consumed by microbes, leaving the concentrated oil) and other fermented sea foods. Of course, most moderners are greatly put off by these traditional foods and consider them "rotten"/"spoiled", so it's not likely to persuade any significant number of them. The coastal Chukchi also eat at least fermented walrus.
Maybe it will turn out that these Arctic/Sub-Arctic foods are only beneficial in super-cold temperatures and when strong sunlight is scarce or something.
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Phil, I definitely find I can eat a lot more of the high fish in cold weather. It doesn't attract me nearly as much in summer heat.
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Thanks, Phil. I was on the Native Nutrition yahoo group with Chris from 2004-I dunno when I left.
Looks like it's nearly dead, unfortunately.
One good thing about the controversy is that Chris finally got around to addressing more fully the issue of the vit. D in CLO and fatty fish in general being not the highly-touted D3, but he apparently thinks it's good anyway. Will need to read up more on that when I get a chance.
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Even good groups like that one eventually die off. This one has definitely seen a downturn.
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I wonder if it was the NSA surveillance in the US that made many forums die down. Seems to have coincided with that. I figure they know who I am so why worry?
Native Nutrition also had a spinoff group called NT politics, where things that got too heated were discussed. Fun times.
I think this is just another example of a long line of examples where WAPF has let personal biases cloud the science and also exactly what Price found. They stray from his recommendations, and he never recommended all people take clo. Breastfeeding not being encouraged because SFM couldn't breastfeed, sourdough being ok for celiacs, pushing dairy as essential for all when only 2 of 12 tribes were shown to have consumed any dairy (which I bitched about here (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/raw-weston-price/only-2-of-12-tribes-consumed-any-dairy/) years ago, btw) and other examples over the years made me give up on them.
I think this whole stinky mess will not bode well for them or GP. People are lining up, and the ones that are supporting WAPF appear to be doing so out of loyalty to authority figures within the organization and not because GP has demonstrated that they offer a good product. How many people are just going to quietly discontinue rather than make a fuss? I know people who are very long term supporters who are cancelling plans to go to WAPF annual conference over this. I mean, why won't GP at least divulge their source for the livers? Don't most of us in traditional foods circles want to know the source of our foods? Don't we try and get local foods, wild instead of farmed marine foods, etc?
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I agree with you Satya, I think this controversy will hurt both WAPF and Green Pastures. I will probably send out my local chapter's monthly email update this week, and will include links to Daniels' report as well as Masterjohn's and Sally's rebuttals. I half expect to get an irate email from Sally for even acknowledging Daniels' report.
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I just don't think people in our industry should be slinging shit at each other. I feel WAPF has been guilty of this as well.
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What 'industry' are you talking about RF?
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My NTP, GAPS friend recommends Apex Energetics K87 Liqua-D™ (http://www.apexenergetics.com/products/k87) as it is made with MCT oil as a carrier and is thus less prone to rancidity. They have some formulas in CLO too. She recommends waiting until decently cool weather to order...probably more of a concern here in Texas.
That product is much like the one I was using, which also contains MCT oil, before my sister got me to buy another bottle of RFCLO. There was criticism in this forum of MCT and conventional CLO products because they are heated and refined. I think it was said that this makes them more toxic and less like a real natural whole food. It was folks in this forum that got me interested in trying RFCLO to begin with.
There seems to be a growing shift to using topical vitamin D in the ancestral community, though it's an even newer and thus less tried product. It's plausible that it would be safer and more like getting D from sunlight, but who knows.
This controversy should give a boost to Ray Peat and Peatarians, as they have long argued against CLO, fish oil, fatty fish and PUFAs in general.
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All this stuff is nonsense. Avoid Peat-inspired grainfed meats, avoid all processed foods, however "raw" they claim to be.
Hmm, I once tried the only genuine "raw" royal jelly in the UK that I could ever find. The stuff tasted disgusting like a sting in the mouth, which I found very encouraging, and the producers admitted that they could only sell small amounts at a time, with it being recommended to immediately store in the fridge after delivery to my door, and eaten soonest.It was bloody expensive and did not seem to have an immediate effect, thus justifying my scepticism as regards raw "superfoods".
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For those who are interested, David Gumpert has posted a series of well-done blog entries about this controversy over the past few weeks. They are:
- Simmering cod liver oil imbroglio heats up for WAPF conference (http://davidgumpert.com/2014/10) (October 2014)
- Major falling out at WAPF over 'fermented' cod liver oil (http://davidgumpert.com/major-falling-out-at-wapf-over-fermented-cod-liver-oil) (August 22, 2015)
- Cod liver oil recriminations escalate (http://davidgumpert.com/cod-liver-oil-recriminations-escalate) (August 25, 2015)
- Playing with fire: Why WAPF's cod liver oil wounds won't heal soon (http://davidgumpert.com/playing-with-fire-why-wapfs-cod-liver-oil-wounds-wont-heal-soon) (August 30, 2015)
- Straight poop on cod liver oil dosage (ready to be confused?) (http://davidgumpert.com/straight-poop-on-cod-liver-oil-dosage-ready-to-be-confused) (September 3, 2015)
- What would Dr. Price do about FCLO mess? (http://davidgumpert.com/what-would-dr-price-do-about-the-fclo-mess) (September 8, 2015)
- As dissension mounts, WAPF warns chapter leaders: Toe the line on FCLO (http://davidgumpert.com/as-dissension-mounts-wapf-warns-chapter-leaders-toe-the-line-on-fclo) (September 10, 2015)
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Hmm. I understand that Sally wants the only available brand of fermented CLO to stay on the market, but it needs further testing before it can be recommended. And the possible presence of vegetable oils in it? That's concerning for sure.
Of course, the lack of funding for good nutritional research is the real problem. All this money and scientific ability in this country....and we're the sickest ones in the developed world. *sigh*
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i think the issue people have with fclo is that fermentation produces hisatmines, and thats why that product seems kinda foul/bunk and irritating to people who are trying to heal their digestion and from nutritional deficiencies. All of the dubiousness behind the business aspect and funding and shit makes me laugh. People who gain notoriety are inherently greedy, you would be hard pressed to find someone who remains humble in any position of power these days, welcome to 2015. This whole drama it has created is fucking silly to me too. How peoples ideas of wapf are "shattered" ....LOFUCKINGL my friends...i guess no one is above being cult minded and wanting to put their total faith in something.
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What are people's vitamin D levels here? I'm hoping that it's possible to maintain good levels, once I achieve that, without supplements or fortified foods, even up here at northern latitudes.
All this stuff is nonsense. Avoid Peat-inspired grainfed meats, avoid all processed foods, however "raw" they claim to be.
Tyler, What do you meant by Peat-inspired grainfed meats? Does he advocate grainfed meats? Aren't they higher in the PUFAs that he warns against?
Eric, Thanks for the links. I noted in a forum in the past, I think it was Satya's defunct Dirty Carnivore forum, that the reported benefits for some from cod liver oils and other fish oils might be due to hormesis (benefits from small amounts of toxins--in other words, "the dose makes the poison", "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger," "no pain, no gain," ...), in which case small doses would be the way to go, rather than large, and this excerpt from one of your links supports that possibility:
“During this time period (late 1920s), Dr. Weston A. Price was conducting numerous animal studies with cod liver oil. The results showed that some types of the oil were very beneficial to immunity and proper physical and mental development, particularly in regard to phosphorus and calcium metabolism regulation (positively affecting bone, dental, blood and brain health). Yet he found that it could also cause great harm, especially when overused. He was careful to note ‘some dangers that are not usually recognized or properly emphasized in the literature.’ “
Jessica, I definitely agree with not putting total faith in anyone/anything. Eric is a good example of someone who uses the WAPF as a helpful aid, rather than a cult. I hope they don't take him to task for it, and that some good will come out of the controversy.
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This is why branding is so disastrous, once you make a product into a brand name then it takes on a life of its own.
Things like Spam, or Kentucky fried chicken when they first came out, as bad as we think them to be, were at one time, made of a lot better ingredients. But because of economic pressures compromises have to been made and this applies even to companies that market themselves as healthy.
There are also enormous pressures to maintain business as usual, and instead of changing the product in accordance with new findings, many companies find it easier to deny the truth and keep trucking on.
In the case of FCLO it is reasonable to think that perhaps abandoning the fermentation process, as well as stopping the mixing of different kinds of oil together is a good starting point. In essence an entirely new and innovative product is needed to replace the old.
Imagine taking fresh cold pressed pure cod liver oil, and freezing it into does sized capsule. It would be a completely raw and unadulterated product, which would be much more in line with the original cod liver oils which where used as health tonics in the 18th century.
Of course being Raw, pure and unadulterated it would be extremely expensive, and perhaps not very marketable to the majority of people who are fearful of the "Raw".
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i think the issue people have with fclo is that fermentation produces hisatmines, and thats why that product seems kinda foul/bunk and irritating to people who are trying to heal their digestion and from nutritional deficiencies. All of the dubiousness behind the business aspect and funding and shit makes me laugh. People who gain notoriety are inherently greedy, you would be hard pressed to find someone who remains humble in any position of power these days, welcome to 2015. This whole drama it has created is fucking silly to me too. How peoples ideas of wapf are "shattered" ....LOFUCKINGL my friends...i guess no one is above being cult minded and wanting to put their total faith in something.
This is why Max Stirner always stated that no individual should blindly put his trust in someone else, especially groups. I always admire people like Eveheart et al who go the extra mile and personally visit the farm they buy from in order to verify that the animal is indeed properly grassfed and raised right etc. I do not do that because I choose not to bother with a car and driving-licence, and I suspect, that, as a result, I have been often somewhat cheated as to what I thought I was buying. No wonder I mostly try buying raw wild game/raw wildcaught seafood instead of 100% grassfed or raw organic fish-farmed seafood
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Wise words, all. Jessica, you make an excellent point about people in positions of notoriety and power.
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Tyler, What do you meant by Peat-inspired grainfed meats? Does he advocate grainfed meats? Aren't they higher in the PUFAs that he warns against?
I recall one extract by Ray Peat in which he attacked grassfed meats because of their higher omega-3 content, and instead promoted grainfed meats. I am sorry though as I cannot recall the exact place he wrote this, online.
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One of the links provided above had the WAPF threaten to expel any WAPF chapter leaders who dissented, like they did with Ron Schmid. Does anyone know why Ron Schmid was expelled? All I know about him was that he wrote "The Untold Story of Milk" and sold a vast amount of allegedly raw pills, such as raw thyroid etc., which did not work for me and were very expensive for non-US customers(though admittedly quite cheap for Americans).
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What are people's vitamin D levels here?
I'd really like to get mine tested again now that I'm eating and healthy, but my vitamin D level used to be really low. I tried FCLO, and it made me horribly sicker than I already was. I'm afraid to ever try it again. Like Jessica said, could have been the histamines. I eat organs occasionally, and I eat whole fish when I can, so I'm hoping I've got a handle on vitamin D!
FWIW, my dog loved the remaining FCLO, won't touch regular CLO.
I recall one extract by Ray Peat in which he attacked grassfed meats because of their higher omega-3 content, and instead promoted grainfed meats.
Bc shifting the animal to a higher omega-6 content is not hypocritical re PUFA concern?? :o
Not doubting what you read TD, that just doesn't make sense.
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I don't understand why people like Ray Peat, etc. get to make a living spreading dietary nonsense, while we get paid not one red cent for what we do here. Is it because we have a good product but poor people skills? LOL
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Bc shifting the animal to a higher omega-6 content is not hypocritical re PUFA concern?? :o
Not doubting what you read TD, that just doesn't make sense.
I think Ray Peat was a condemning omega-3s as being far worse than any omega-6s. I am pretty sure of this, but I admit I cannot immediately find the right source.
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I don't understand why people like Ray Peat, etc. get to make a living spreading dietary nonsense, while we get paid not one red cent for what we do here. Is it because we have a good product but poor people skills? LOL
My position on allexperts.com makes me feel so virtuous and positively saintly. I hand out occasional info re raw diets and yet do not get paid for it. If I ever got paid for it, I would inevitably end up becoming a hopelessly corrupt guru like Sally Fallon or Aajonus or Dr Mercola, possessing some good points but posessing many flaws due to a corrupt desire to make ever more money.
You can, of course, try to become a guru. You would need massive charisma like Dr Atkins, be willing to lie all the time about your dietary rivals, make up endless claims of 100% health for all your own products, write a book simple enough for the mass of morons worldwide to be able to read, and sell lots of (raw?) supplements(the most successful dietary gurus are the ones selling supplements).
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The reason Ron Schmid was prevented from speaking and selling at the conference was because he wrote an article where he blamed his heart problems on his consumption of Green Pasture's Fermented Cod Liver Oil. The article was called Too Much of a Not So Good Thing (http://www.drrons.com/cod-liver-oil-too-much-of-a-not-so-good-thing.html). This violated the WAPF policy for exhibitors and speakers that they are not allowed to say anything bad about any products that are sold by conference exhibitors or that are produced by companies that donate funds to the foundation.
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The reason Ron Schmid was prevented from speaking and selling at the conference was because he wrote an article where he blamed his heart problems on his consumption of Green Pasture's Fermented Cod Liver Oil. The article was called Too Much of a Not So Good Thing (http://www.drrons.com/cod-liver-oil-too-much-of-a-not-so-good-thing.html). This violated the WAPF policy for exhibitors and speakers that they are not allowed to say anything bad about any products that are sold by conference exhibitors or that are produced by companies that donate funds to the foundation.
Thanks. I just read online that you are a WAPF chapter leader. I do hope you are not being targetted right now for any past so-called "transgressions"?
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Tyler, I disagree with Ray Peat on some things (such as the importance of commensal microbiota) but I tried to confirm your allegation about Ray Peat advocating grain-fed meats, and all I found was these:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/meat-physiology-stress.shtml
"(Grass-fed organic beef fresh from a local farm would be a reasonable choice.)"
Ray Peat’s diet
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AV-Skeptics/message/5523 (http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AV-Skeptics/message/5523)
– with cheese and milk, the feeding of the animals (grassfed vs. grainfed) is more the issue than raw vs. pasteurized.
I think Ray Peat was a condemning omega-3s as being far worse than any omega-6s. I am pretty sure of this, but I admit I cannot immediately find the right source.
Peat considers both omega-6 and omega-3 FAs to be toxic, especially when oxidized, and has frequently warned against both. I quickly searched and found that he does write more about omega-3, which has become popular in the media and diet forums in recent years, and warned that it is even more oxidizable than omega-6:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fats-degeneration3.shtml
The “balance” between the omega -3 and the omega -6 fatty acids is increasingly being presented as a defense against the toxic omega -6 fats. But the accumulation of unsaturated fats with aging makes any defense increasingly difficult, and the extreme instability of the highly unsaturated omega -3 fats creates additional problems.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsuitablefats.shtml (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsuitablefats.shtml)
among the polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) the omega -3 fatty acids react most easily with oxygen
Peat reported that even cod liver from unfermented sources had problems:
"Between the first and second world wars, cod liver oil was recommended as a vitamin supplement, at first as a source of vitamin A, and later as a source of vitamins A and D. But in the late 1940s, experimenters used it as the main fat in dogs' diet, and found that they all died from cancer, while the dogs on a standard diet had only a 5% cancer mortality. That sort of information, and the availability of synthetic vitamins, led to the decreased use of cod liver oil." http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fats-degeneration3.shtml (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fats-degeneration3.shtml)
The reason Ron Schmid was prevented from speaking and selling at the conference was because he wrote an article where he blamed his heart problems on his consumption of Green Pasture's Fermented Cod Liver Oil. The article was called Too Much of a Not So Good Thing (http://www.drrons.com/cod-liver-oil-too-much-of-a-not-so-good-thing.html). This violated the WAPF policy for exhibitors and speakers that they are not allowed to say anything bad about any products that are sold by conference exhibitors or that are produced by companies that donate funds to the foundation.
Yes, and his opinion is rather credible, as he used to sell the GP RFCLO himself. The good news is that he says he has been recovering since he stopped taking daily high doses of CLO (more than the recommended amounts), which fits with his claim that it was the culprit (though that's not proof, of course).
It's difficult to know what to do when there is so much conflicting information and so many conflicting opinions. I was already planning on trying going without any supplements for vit D in the future, so this controversy is another incentive to try that. I think I'll continue to use topical vit D. Even before this controversy, I was mostly using the RFCLO I had recently purchased like a lip balm, figuring it would be safer applied to the skin than directly ingested, though some does get ingested this way, and I would also swallow a tiny amount. I figured the vitamin A might also be good for my lips. Danny Roddy and others recommended vitamin A for glucose-triggered lip chapping.
If I don't buy the RFCLO or CLO/butter oil mixture (which I bought this last time) again, I'll miss it. I actually liked the fermented taste and kick of the unflavored version--more so than vinegar, which many people say they like. A past jar did eventually go rancid, though, when it got down to about 1/3 left, as I took small doses and wasn't good about always keeping it refrigerated. That further increased the cost/unit for me, which was another reason I hadn't been buying it. Some people say that the fresh product tastes "rancid," but if they tasted it when it truly goes bad some months after being opened, they would know that it can get far worse. LOL
I know people who think that all fish smells and tastes rancid--even if fresh caught that day, and to the point where they will exit a kitchen or house if fish is being cooked in it. During a period where I was doing a lot of fishing, I found that the more I ate and handled the fish, the less bad and less strong it smelled to me and the better it tasted. It seems like people adapt to it over time. I have seen videos of Inuit elders relishing and praising "stink heads" (fish fermented for about a year) and Chukchi people relishing fermented walrus that nearly made British physicians ill (the British also considered it "rancid" and they couldn't stand the smell of it, which didn't bother the Chukchi at all). However, the Inuit and Chukchi live in very cold climates, and they have certain physiological adaptations, and even they eat such foods seasonally, so their experience may not be that applicable to us.
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I just read online that you are a WAPF chapter leader. I do hope you are not being targetted right now for any past so-called "transgressions"?
If the foundation closes down my chapter because of any so-called "transgressions" I won't lose any sleep over it. I don't gain anything by being a chapter leader, and I've received plenty of gratitude from those on my email list for providing both sides of the FCLO story.
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Eric and phil, do you still trust the butter oil?
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I haven't used Green Pasture products on years. I tried the FCLO/BO blend, and I can't say it did anything useful for me. I've had much better results with respect to healing cavities by oil pulling with coconut oil with a drop of antiseptic essential oil in it. While I acknowledge that some claim to enjoy benefits from Green Pasture products, I personally don't think they're worth the money.
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I haven't used Green Pasture products on years. I tried the FCLO/BO blend, and I can't say it did anything useful for me. I've had much better results with respect to healing cavities by oil pulling with coconut oil with a drop of antiseptic essential oil in it. While I acknowledge that some claim to enjoy benefits from Green Pasture products, I personally don't think they're worth the money.
I used to have very sensitive teeth from overeating fruit, and coconut oil worked FAR better than butter oil to stop the problem. I gave up on butter oil after one jar, but have been brushing and oil pulling with coconut oil for probably 10 years now.
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Eric and phil, do you still trust the butter oil?
It's probably harder to screw up, but I already told my sister before I bought the jar of CLO/butter oil mix that I might just go with butter (and other animal and plant fats) in the future.
CLO seemed to do a tiny bit for my dental health, though so small it was hard to tell. The dental health claims via fat soluble vitamins were what originally interested me in it. Coconut oil pulling did nothing for me (I also tried other oils to no avail). Chewing hard suet and beef jerky did more (unfortunately, the latter seems to be my most constipating food). The real winner for me in dental health has been Gerolsteiner, with neem tooth powder and tea tree oil toothpicks probably #2 and 3, and of course eating healthy.
It's not Paleo/primal, but I also found by accident recently that microfiber cloths really scrub teeth well. I looked it up and others have noted it and there are now even microfiber toothbrushes. Don't know if they'll discover some side effect down the road, though. I'm generally cautious about new things.
Some time ago I also found that by keeping ice in my mouth adjacent to cold-sensitive teeth, that I completely eliminated their cold sensitivity. I can now put ice in any part of my mouth for any period of time without discomfort, and no more "ice cream headaches", no matter how cold something is.
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its truly a shame that by not being transparent and admitting to making mistakes the WAPFoundation may risk jeopardizing the legitimacy of some of the real benefits of part of their diet to people who have yet to be exposed or who are on the fence about its efficacy. i honestly dont think anyone on this message board is egoic enough to uphold the type of guru facade that people seem to need to be convinced to eat a healthy diet and live a healthful life.
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its truly a shame that by not being transparent and admitting to making mistakes the WAPFoundation may risk jeopardizing the legitimacy of some of the real benefits of part of their diet to people who have yet to be exposed or who are on the fence about its efficacy. i honestly dont think anyone on this message board is egoic enough to uphold the type of guru facade that people seem to need to be convinced to eat a healthy diet and live a healthful life.
I agree. We're about fact, not material success.
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I am amazed at how so many people feel the need to follow just one guru. My own experience showed that many different gurus were needed to be listened to in order for my own health to improve, and that all of these gurus had some claims which were heavily flawed or even positively dangerous to me. Relying solely on oneself to judge health is also, admittedly, very dodgy given my experience, but a healthy, varied combination of different sources and info is, imo, essential.
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I am amazed at how so many people feel the need to follow just one guru. My own experience showed that many different gurus were needed to be listened to in order for my own health to improve, and that all of these gurus had some claims which were heavily flawed or even positively dangerous to me. Relying solely on oneself to judge health is also, admittedly, very dodgy given my experience, but a healthy, varied combination of different sources and info is, imo, essential.
Yes, good summary.
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I am amazed at how so many people feel the need to follow just one guru. My own experience showed that many different gurus were needed to be listened to in order for my own health to improve, and that all of these gurus had some claims which were heavily flawed or even positively dangerous to me. Relying solely on oneself to judge health is also, admittedly, very dodgy given my experience, but a healthy, varied combination of different sources and info is, imo, essential.
good advice.
in the past i tended to look for one health guru that had all the answers but seems like each one might have a little piece of the puzzle for me and is ultimately up to me to choose my path and figure out what makes sense and what doesn't.
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For those who are interested, David Gumpert has posted a series of well-done blog entries about this controversy over the past few weeks. They are:
- Simmering cod liver oil imbroglio heats up for WAPF conference (http://davidgumpert.com/2014/10) (October 2014)
- Major falling out at WAPF over 'fermented' cod liver oil (http://davidgumpert.com/major-falling-out-at-wapf-over-fermented-cod-liver-oil) (August 22, 2015)
- Cod liver oil recriminations escalate (http://davidgumpert.com/cod-liver-oil-recriminations-escalate) (August 25, 2015)
- Playing with fire: Why WAPF's cod liver oil wounds won't heal soon (http://davidgumpert.com/playing-with-fire-why-wapfs-cod-liver-oil-wounds-wont-heal-soon) (August 30, 2015)
- Straight poop on cod liver oil dosage (ready to be confused?) (http://davidgumpert.com/straight-poop-on-cod-liver-oil-dosage-ready-to-be-confused) (September 3, 2015)
- What would Dr. Price do about FCLO mess? (http://davidgumpert.com/what-would-dr-price-do-about-the-fclo-mess) (September 8, 2015)
- As dissension mounts, WAPF warns chapter leaders: Toe the line on FCLO (http://davidgumpert.com/as-dissension-mounts-wapf-warns-chapter-leaders-toe-the-line-on-fclo) (September 10, 2015)
Wow! I just came back and spent all afternoon reading these links. A comment by Cathy from the last link sums up my feelings:
...I hope these Chapter Leaders use their excellent minds to fully exercise their right to freedom of speech, their right to dissent and call their leader to the carpet if needed.
Perhaps the new qualification for a chapter leader will require a lobotomy. That way, they will be very tractable little sheeple.
I know a couple of these folks and they are not at all the sheeple type. These chapter leaders are amazing, generous, hard-working, free-thinking women and men who VOLUNTEER countless hours to teach and connect people with good sources of food. They are leaders in their communities. David, I hope they use your blog as a safe way to share their thoughts, pro or con.
And, ahem, Sally, .why are you still saying bad things about Dr. Daniel? If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all, or you will be disinvited from your own conference and exhibit hall.
Oh, and in case y'all missed it. Here is the bashing of Paleo (http://www.westonaprice.org/journal/journal-summer-2013-our-broken-food-system/) by WAPF. Total duh on SFM to limit Paleo eating by one author's description. I think it was circa 2007 when she started legally going after websites using the WAPF logo and such. At that time I ran a volunteer site for the local N TX chapters. Well, I got out of that business in a hurry and set up the site as a local resource that pays some homage to Price, but without any reference to WAPF. I mean, fuck that noise of being told what I can say and do. She has gotten way worse than she ever was. She should step down and let someone else lead. Otherwise it is going to look more and more like a religious organization. And sorry, but those of us trying to make a living peddling health really do need to look healthy. She has probably gained 50 pounds since she wrote NT and does not seem to have glowing health. It may not be fair, but we in the nutrition and/or fitness industry are judged on looks to some extent. And she has written weight loss books, so, yanno...
(http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Sally-Fallon-Morell_mini-1.jpg)
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A good point about her weight. She's probably gotten too busy to focus on eating healthy these days. People will judge her message about diet by how she looks, though, and will not take into account how busy and stressed she may be.
And I agree, the last thing she needs to do is to make herself into some sort of guru whose dogma cannot be questioned. That's laughable...she is no pioneer. She is no researcher. Pride goes before a fall, and this is looking like the season she may Fall.
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I'm not happy at all. Yes, I know the gurus all have their many faults, and power corrupts etc., BUT BUT BUT without these gurus, most of us would have gotten nowhere near diet. Take my own example:- well over a decade ago, I had tried virtually every diet other than Breatharianism, to try to solve my godawful health problems, and wanted to try a raw-meat diet as an absolute last resort, but was deathly afraid of doing such; so I searched online for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, for some months, in order to find just 1 raw-meat-diet guru so that I could get enough courage to try such a diet(and also thereby find out what pitfalls existed in such a diet). I duly found out about Aajonus after lengthy internet searching(I had not even heard about google at the time) and was able to discover a few health-benefits for a very few months before I went into my raw-dairy phase and started suffering again. My point is that most of us simply do not have the balls or the initiative to find out what works for us as individuals, and so most of us need to have access to lots of different diet-gurus and acquaintances in order to find out what specifically works for us as individuals.
Plus, we all need our gods and prophets. Dr Price is long dead, we need more current ones as well.
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Yes, I think it's important to learn from those who have figured some of this stuff out. But I like to think of such people as more of a mentor. Once they become too powerful or subdue dissent and questioning, then it is an unhealthy relationship...or rather it can lead to that. That's why I prefer forums like these to more hierarchical organizations. And traditional peoples were more egalitarian anyway, right? Hierarchies are for Neolithic types.
Hey, am I the last person to know AV died a couple years ago? Too bad on having such a seemingly painful death falling.
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Yes, I knew re AV dying, as of ages ago. But, quite frankly, if, ages ago, I have never gotten to know about him online, I would have instead tried a raw-meat-and-raw-vegetable/raw fruit diet. I would have failed miserably healthwise since all the meat I would have eaten at the time would have been 100% grainfed meat, however raw.
Palaeolithic-era tribes would never have been egalitarian. They had their tribal leaders, tribal shamans, deputies thereof, wise old women(re herb-gatherers etc.), top hunters and so on and on.
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Not to derail the thread, but traditional tribes vary quite a bit in their degree of power differential between people. In general, though, there's not NEARLY the degree of economic/political imbalance that you see in large modern societies. But most of those societies have their own failings, just not in the area of nutrition, posture, etc..
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Chris Kresser has a column on it here:
hxxp://chriskresser.com/important-update-on-cod-liver-oil/ (sorry, wont let me post direct link i guess)
differing opinions
also 376 comments
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More evidence was just published about genetic and physiological adaptations among the Inuit that differentiate them from Europids:
Greenlandic Inuit show genetic signatures of diet and climate adaptation
Science 18 September 2015:
Vol. 349 no. 6254 pp. 1343-1347
DOI: 10.1126/science.aab2319
"...the Inuit have genetic and physiological adaptations to a diet rich in PUFAs."
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I saw that. Boy, you're all about tearing down ZC and VLC these days. I understand, though. It seemed so great in the beginning, like 80/10/10 did to me, until it slowly damaged my health more and more.
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I shared the new study as it is relevant to the topic and to my earlier comment in the thread along the same lines. It is also an interesting counterpoint to the recommendations of V. Stefansson and many others to (allegedly) emulate the Inuit and/or consume PUFA-rich oils.
I hear you about my more recent posts. Some days I eat VLC/ZC myself, but not every day, and I don't aim for "nutritional ketosis". I don't ask that anyone agree with me. All I ask is that no one say I didn't warn people. I noticed that many others use attention-grabbing methods successfully to get the word out about this or that, so I tried that and it appears to have worked. I know it's not my usual way, but was concerned by the increasing number of increasingly bad reports I was seeing and felt I owed it to folks to share the other side of the story after my past quite positive posts about VLC. I try to share not just the good, but also the bad and the ugly. :)
And of course, as always, other folks' mileage may vary.
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No, I hear you, it just makes me a little sad that there's no safe space nutritionally that we can recommend to everyone. Certainly ZC is not as bad for the brain as 80/10/10, but all the other common long-term effects, while not quite as negative, still don't exactly impress me.
I figure that science will fix everyone's health problems pretty much on the same day as we get nutrition completely figured out amongst the raw paleo community. That'd be ironic, no?
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The Inuit studies are interesting and its a perfectly reasonable conclusion that they be genetically adapted to high levels of dietary fish fat.
I still wonder if there are not other subgroups whom are also more fat adapted than others. I would imagine people more closely related to the ancient nordic tribes whom relied heavily on fish as well as fatty land animals? Its possible that modern people have only just recently lost their ability to adapt easily to near carnivorous diets, since the agricultural revolution.
There must be groups of people who have retained the genetic adaptions of the mammoth and cave bare hunters of northern europe, who lived off of high amounts of land fats. There were groups of herds people that flourished throughout the early neolithic age who lived almost exclusively on animal foods, and had only given up their traditional ways very recently
Though most of these fat adapted people interbred with other groups and there are no longer any pure bred inuit equivalents left, still I say there must be some people more fat adaptable than others.
On the topic of fish liver oil, I've noticed an aversion too it personally, but on the other hand I absolutely love whole raw sheep liver... my ancestors must of been more adapted to Land mammal meat. Perhaps the people currently using cod liver oil would do better to instead eat the fats and organs of grassfed land animals?
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I am certain that many other ethnicities are also fully fat-adapted, not just the Inuit, so I am a little appalled by PP`s scaremongering on this issue. I think people have to concede that even, say, a few people can do fine long-term on a 100% raw vegan diet. Now, granted, that seems unlikely but who knows, maybe some people have the exact combination of (vitamin B12-producing?)genes that make it work.
It is just that I used to condemn all and sundry in the past for being heretical pro-raw-dairy advocates, and I subsequently found that my raw dairy allergenicity went down to some extent, after over a decade or so of eating rawpalaeo. Now, granted, my fanaticism was in response to the very fanaticism of pro-raw-dairy advocates who maintained that it was impossible to have negative side-effects from raw dairy, but I can see that I overdid it just a bit.
I have a lot of upper-palaeolithic/Cro-Magnon heritage, with, sadly, some admixture from non-palaeo nordic/mediterranean etc., so,imo, I ought to be more fat-adapted than a lot of Caucasians. I seem to thrive in the first 3 weeks of going RZC but then start failing after 3 weeks. Hmm, perhaps it is time for a RZC trial again, since it has been years since I last did a trial.
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Geoff, I thought you were already going to start doing 3 weeks of ZC followed by a couple days of carbs, and so on. Is that still the plan?
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Geoff, I thought you were already going to start doing 3 weeks of ZC followed by a couple days of carbs, and so on. Is that still the plan?
I got side-tracked. I suppose I need to try a little harder.
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Let us know how it goes. I think it would be interesting to see how this would work long-term. It wouldn't work well for me because I get so tired those first couple weeks of VLC.
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I am going zero carb in the winter Tyler... join me ;)
I eat a little carbs that are in season here now.. I think it is important to do that too.. but soon I will ditch any carb.......
I have no issues doing no carbs tho.
If you join me, make sure to drink lots of spring water, ok? and... seafood :)
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Though most of these fat adapted people interbred with other groups and there are no longer any pure bred inuit equivalents left, still I say there must be some people more fat adaptable than others.
Certainly. And if we look at the people who have had problems vlc-zc, they are the ones highly restricting foods to muscle meats mainly...sometimes from one species. That said, I find for myself - a northern European descendant, high fat is fine, as is low carb, but I must have the occasional carb refeed long term. Seems like a seasonally natural approach.
I did experience an allergic reaction that cascaded beyond the original sugar alcohol erythritol to include all nightshades during a vlc period. However, I also experienced an environmental trigger of bad shop vacuum fumes at my gym (which I quit right then and there). So I cannot really be sure what exactly caused the allergic reaction. Airborne triggers are common in allergy onset, from what I have read.
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There is so much we do not know about the people who reportedly fail on so called VLC diets. There are so many factors involved which do not get fully discussed. I personally stay on VLC, and will admit that if I do not have any carbs what so ever I begin to go hypoglycemic and have low energy spells, but so long as I have some carbs( and it does not have to be much nor do I need to eat carbs everyday) I seem to do fine in the long term.
What I do is extreme and in order to make VLC work people may have to go to an extreme that they are not willing or able to do.
I will eat whole animals Organs, glands, blood, marrow, copious amounts of stomach fat and even make stomach and intestinal smoothies, then I also eat eggs, and occasional seafood, along with coconut and other some carb food staples ....I am not sure that there are very many who has fail VLC who have genuinely tried such an approach and stuck with it for long enough to prove one way or another?
There are people like Myself and Inger who do live much closer to a more balanced carnivorous ideal. For VLC to work one must incorporating all parts of the animal, using limited amounts of quality carbs, and give it enough time to allow the body to realign itself. Lets look at it case by case, individual by individual, and it seems to me that most who fail to adapt to VLC are merely experimenting with certain aspects of VLC without getting into the holistic Blood and guts of a VLC lifestyle.
It seems like most people who attempt ZC and VLC lack the resources needed in order to obtain the copious amounts of quality fat and organ meats which are essential....it also seems that many who fail also lack the courage to eat tripe, fish head smoothies, high meat, glands, and what not which is also a crucial part of making a VLC diet work.
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I did fine on RVLC for years, even when not eating much in the way of raw organ-meats.
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I did fine on RVLC for years, even when not eating much in the way of raw organ-meats.
As I was stating there are still so many unknown factors as to why some people can more easily adapt to LC than others.
Whats your parameters of RVLC? And exactly how long did you consistently follow it for? Where you eating highmeat, or some other combinations of foods which allowed you to successfully adapt? I when through long periods of eating very close to zero carb, there was a two year period when I ate very little carbs.
This is a theory I have regarding why so many people can do so well initially on ZC before hitting a wall....
In a way early adaptation to ZC can be much like veganism in the way one can begin to feel good for a period of time until certain unidentified factors stored within the body tissues begin to get depleted...or in some cases the metabolic systems involved in breaking down fat and protein begin to break down themselves.
I currently seem to feel best eating between 20 to 50 carbs per day, I will go some days without any and other days eat more, and on rare occasions I may treat myself to a glass of raw goats milk when I go up to the farm on sheep pick up day.
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Well, now I come to think of it, I ate RVLC for something like 3 years almost non-stop. I would eat a banana or the equivalent about 3 times a fortnight, but otherwise just eat raw animal foods/seafoods. I would sometimes eat high-meat but only for a few months at a time each year, and then usually in small portions, though not always. I inevitably found that I did not digest raw fruits well which was why I limited them. I only ate them in order to avoid the 3-week wall I would encounter after 3 weeks of going RZC.
I do admit that during my RVLC phase, my stamina at exercise was right down, but the feeling I had in my head re enhanced concentration/alertness(maybe higher intelligence?) was worth it.
I Do not know why my mind thrives but not my body when going RZC, and why the experiment failed c. after 3 weeks.
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One question for my RZC Experiment:- does raw milk break the rules re not too many carbs? Could I glug a litre or two of raw milk in one day without getting out of ketosis?
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For me, the important parameters for ketosis are how many carbs I ingest at one time and my activity level. I also play around with daily I.F. a la Dave Asprey, which I loosely adapt as: only fat morning until early afternoon, protein for lunch, carbs for early dinner. Ketone testing with urine test strips indicates that I am in ketosis for many hours each day. I like this pattern because it avoids the wicked insomnia I get if I remain in ketosis at night.
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Eveheart, what works for you as a "only fat morning"?
I used to eat avocado in the morning, and then a protein meal when I got hungry next. This was working quite well for me initially, until I realized the fat from avocado was not really doing a whole lot for me, not like animal fat. I don't really eat avocado anymore, nor desire to even if I could find a decent supply. So I'm looking for replacement suggestions.
TD drinks raw milk?
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TD drinks raw milk?
Yes, I know, after all those years I spent condemning pro-raw-dairy-advocates! I did very occasional raw dairy experiments ever since giving it up in Feb 2002 (sort of once a year) and found that I very gradually developed fewer, less virulent symptoms from it after about 10 years. Now, I do not immediately suffer from it, seemingly, except for some excess mucus. I do not like the mucus aspect but I do not consume raw dairy all the time anyway. If my health declined or I had to suddenly urinate more frequently etc., I would give it up instantly.
I have recently discovered that chronic fatigue syndrome often creates new allergies such as towards raw dairy.
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I Do not know why my mind thrives but not my body when going RZC, and why the experiment failed c. after 3 weeks.
Not enough salt intake? and/or water?
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Not enough salt intake? and/or water?
No, I drank lots of water and added lots of salt to make sure I retained the water.
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I don't think that's its be considered lc or have same fat:protein as avocado but I find that a few(3) raw egg yolks in a large glass of raw milk makes a good breakfast/meal that really tides me over for quite a while. And it's all excellent animal fats.
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Eveheart, what works for you as a "only fat morning"?
Butter, lamb fat, or beef fat. I've been doing this for about six months now. It suits me and my schedule. I get super-hungry by lunch, but in an energetic way, not in a low-blood-sugar shaky way. I like that type of hunger.
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Straight fat for breakfast. I like it. Has anyone else tried this? I personally don't generally eat before about 10:30 am at the very earliest, and usually more like noon, but this sounds good.
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Well, now I come to think of it, I ate RVLC for something like 3 years almost non-stop. I would eat a banana or the equivalent about 3 times a fortnight, but otherwise just eat raw animal foods/seafoods. I would sometimes eat high-meat but only for a few months at a time each year, and then usually in small portions, though not always. I inevitably found that I did not digest raw fruits well which was why I limited them. I only ate them in order to avoid the 3-week wall I would encounter after 3 weeks of going RZC.
I do admit that during my RVLC phase, my stamina at exercise was right down, but the feeling I had in my head re enhanced concentration/alertness(maybe higher intelligence?) was worth it.
I Do not know why my mind thrives but not my body when going RZC, and why the experiment failed c. after 3 weeks.
I have noticed this phenomenon as well....Perhaps it has something to do with how the brain and nerve tissue differs in its preferred fuel source separately from the musculoskeletal system. The Brain can thrive on fats for fuel much more so than muscle tissue, which on low carb diets is fueled primarily through glycogen converted from protein by the liver.
In theory it is possible for one to sustain oneself through gluconeogenesis, and there are many example of humans being able to fully adapt to near zero carb diets( such as the Inuit) What I see happening in some individuals who experience sudden energy loss after a few weeks into zc and lc experiments, is that the neolithic adapted liver and enzymatic metabolism inherited by modern man, which became more adapted to lower protein and higher carbs during the last 10,000, begins to exhaust itself after a period of time when subsisting without its conditioned regular dietary carb intake.
The inuit and perhaps many other individuals from other subgroups have an inherently stronger liver function which allows one to continually produce enough glycogen from protein to fully fuel the muscle tissue over long periods of time(during which the brain can thrive on ketones)
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I was inspired to do a fat-only breakfast by Dave Asprey's bulletproof coffee idea, blending butter and C8 (capryllic acid) MCT oil in coffee so that the fat is well-dispersed in the hot liquid.
And, I forgot to mention another fat-only breakfast: egg yolks.
Speaking of the uncomfortable reactions to VLC, it's worth mentioning that Dave Asprey suggests a protein-fasting day every week when one eats fat and carbs. His version usually involves cooked starches or grains, but cooking wouldn't be necessary. His rationale is along the lines of his bio-hacking philosophy, which is too science-y for me to care to learn. Occasionally, I enjoy a high-carb (for me) day.
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As a group, we're more than smart enough to "hack his hack". We've certainly sorted the good info from the bad with all the other gurus of any note.
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Straight fat for breakfast. I like it. Has anyone else tried this? I personally don't generally eat before about 10:30 am at the very earliest, and usually more like noon, but this sounds good.
I find this works very well for me. I feel great, as if it keeps me in ketosis from the overnite fast so that I'm not hungry again until late lunch-ish hour. I really like this bc I'm a morning person, so I can just get to work and keep going, but also bc I still won't eat in front of people, and this keeps me from needing to eat during much of the workday. My job is analytical, rather than physically demanding though.
I will probably start doing egg yolks, thanks for all the suggestions! :)
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I also like fat in the am.. and for me a small amount of protein seems to supply my need for repair. I'm also eating wild greens first thing, mostly just chewing and sucking the juice, and then later eating fat. i tend to snack on greens, radishes, leek leaves, celery, seaweed,, through out the day in-between meals. Not a lot, but enough to get their minerals and alkalinity. I tend to think that is what HG's would have done..
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Interesting, Van.
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Yes, I know, after all those years I spent condemning pro-raw-dairy-advocates! I did very occasional raw dairy experiments ever since giving it up in Feb 2002 (sort of once a year) and found that I very gradually developed fewer, less virulent symptoms from it after about 10 years. Now, I do not immediately suffer from it, seemingly, except for some excess mucus. I do not like the mucus aspect but I do not consume raw dairy all the time anyway. If my health declined or I had to suddenly urinate more frequently etc., I would give it up instantly.
Well, at least you are open to change. Many people keep options closed after bad experiences, which I suppose is only natural. Or like some of the vegans or zcers, they hide what they are doing or lie to themselves and/or others (eg. claim ice cream with sugar has no carbs or some such).
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Re: scaremongering--all I ask (as I have before) is that no one say that I didn't warn them about potential issues with long-term chronic ZC/keto (such as the bad muscle spasms and cramps and other issues I experienced, as just one of many examples). If they want to claim that's scaremongering, so be it. I'd rather be accused of excessive caution than insufficient warning.
Certainly. And if we look at the people who have had problems vlc-zc, they are the ones highly restricting foods to muscle meats mainly...sometimes from one species. That said, I find for myself - a northern European descendant, high fat is fine, as is low carb, but I must have the occasional carb refeed long term. Seems like a seasonally natural approach.
Yes, Satya, I think you are wise not to restrict to restrict to the point of long-term chronic ZC regardless of season. Even Katelyn, who was more adamantly ZC than anyone, eventually added some carbs back into her diet. Good luck with your current approach.
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Well, at least you are open to change. Many people keep options closed after bad experiences, which I suppose is only natural. Or like some of the vegans or zcers, they hide what they are doing or lie to themselves and/or others (eg. claim ice cream with sugar has no carbs or some such).
That post was premature. Since then, I found, on 2 occasions, that after dairy-consumption, my stools were very copious and liquidy and my rectum hurt like sin, being very inflamed. Clearly, I still have raw dairy allergies, it is just that, being much healthier now, the various negative symptoms take longer to appear. Fortunatel,y I overdid the raw dairy consumption which is why I noticed such an effect sooner rather than later.
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Just throwing my two cents out there. I started taking FCLO maybe 4 years ago and noticed a marked improvement in myself immediately. I never had fish burps or any of the other complaints others have expressed.
I just spent the last two years on and off diet but am back on it full time now. I ordered another bottle which I plan to start taking soon. We'll see how it works for me.
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Just throwing my two cents out there. I started taking FCLO maybe 4 years ago and noticed a marked improvement in myself immediately. I never had fish burps or any of the other complaints others have expressed.
I just spent the last two years on and off diet but am back on it full time now. I ordered another bottle which I plan to start taking soon. We'll see how it works for me.
Update.
Took my first dose this morning. I could instantly tell it's not what it was and spit it out. VERY clear response. The older fish oil tasted clean. This stuff tastes burned. I strongly discourage others from using Greener Pastures.
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Update.
Took my first dose this morning. I could instantly tell it's not what it was and spit it out. VERY clear response. The older fish oil tasted clean. This stuff tastes burned. I strongly discourage others from using Greener Pastures.
I generally discourage the use of supplements anyway, other than as a temporary fix.
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I mentioned WAPF's troubles and FCLO in a blog post last fall: Reflections on the First P3 Foundation Conference (http://ericgarza.info/reflections-on-p3-conference/). Might be an interesting read for some, and includes a few links related to WAPF troubles that folks may want to follow up on.
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I don't get to visit here often lately. Hopefully I can check in once a week at least in the future.
Eric, I really enjoyed your piece, especially:
Considering the mission of the Paleo-Primal-Price Foundation more broadly, another concern I have is its focus on diet and food. What about the value of healthy movement and activity? What about the value of learning the natural history of the areas where we live so our lifestyles better integrate into our landscapes? While there might be a niche in today’s non-profit landscape for another diet-centered foundation, I think one built on lifestyle more generally will attract a broader membership and ultimately prove more viable.
I so agree. WAPF never wanted to consider movement when I was chapter leader. I agree that the lifestyle approach is best. And yeah, major creep factor from what I read about SFM's husband. I wonder how their membership numbers are doing this year?
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Esther Gokhale's work with posture and movement is drawn directly from people living traditional lifestyles.