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Members' Journals => Journals => Topic started by: rawlion on July 28, 2008, 05:04:44 pm

Title: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 28, 2008, 05:04:44 pm

Hi everyone

Primarily on Lex's advice and also by my own decision I will post here with your permission my efforts to get healthy again.

I think a lot of people on some stage of their lives go through rather harsh and rough times. I believe this is exactly where I'm at present. I'm really confused because I just cannot find out what is wrong with me.

Here is my story in a nutshell.

As little as three years ago I was in very good physical form and had what I considered an excellent health. Over the following two years a several huge stressors (unexpected and shocking death of my mother, graduation from the University, new job search etc.) pushed me initially to raw vegetarianism and further to raw veganism. Three months of the latter, when my diet was exclusively plant based and extremely high in fruit, were enough to make me dreadfully weak and exhausted. In hindsight I admit I was incredibly lucky to rather timely come across AV’s studies which literally saved me from death. That helped me tremendously. I can't begin to think what would have happened hadn't I tried the raw meats…

Over the first four months on the Primal Diet I added a massive 60 lbs of weight (from 110 to 175 lbs). And despite it was mostly fat I cared little as I was feeling so much better back then. Now I think that shortly after that I had made the second major dietary mistake of my life (the first one of course was my abstinence from animal foods), I decided to try intermittent fasting.

As much as 10 months of eating single meal daily or even every other day must have significantly damaged my already compromised body and organs. All this time I have been trying hard to find the answers why I had felt so miserably. I fiddled with the diet quite a bit during this period. I eschewed all dairy and fruits and gradually progressed to all meat (mostly organs) zero carb diet.

At present, my raw diet basically consists of fruit, honey, meat/organs and dairy (cream). On a daily basis I consume around 60g of carbs, 80g of proteins and 100-140g of fats.

I cannot ignore obvious facts as I understand that something is wrong. I don't know what I can do to fix this because I don't know the initial reason. I was thinking about parasites, lack of calcium/minerals, excess fat or organs in the diet, over-acidity, low carbohydrates intake, absence of salt, intermittent fasting, not enough calories, over-exercising, too much iron, too little sleep/rest, lower levels of the hydrochloric acid etc. Lately I began to suspect that something is amiss with my thyroid and/or adrenals. I happen to think I may be hypothyroid or have the adrenal fatigue because I have all related symptoms (the most obvious being increased recovery time. Any cuts I have take longer to heal, swelling stays around; increased effort to do every day tasks; always hungry, every hour; dark under eyes circles; thermal chameleon (hot when it's warm and cold when it's cool). Poor thermoregulation. Cold Intolerance. Cold Hands/Feet; light sensitivity; tired, sluggish, low motivation; light-headed when getting up to stand from laying or sometimes, even sitting; pain in upper back and neck; fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue…).

I think I may have exhausted my adrenals through either, several or all of the following:
1) too much stress – I may also classify as stress my past eating habits, I mean stress related to infrequent eating, social stress from eating unhuman foods, contrast showers, overtraining etc.;
2) intermittent fasting – I think adrenals are involved in the process of maintaining blood glucose at proper level which is consistently at its lowest during fasting;
3) past high fruit vegan diet – clear as a day;
4) parasitic invasion – it is commonly believed that adrenals are hugely affected by various toxins. And there are number of direct links between the parasites and adrenals;
5) current (a year and a half long) limited/inappropriate raw meat diet – mineral imbalances, too much acidity, inappropriate absorption, lack of salt etc.

As a result I feel like I have a severe case of adrenal fatigue. I also perceive I have hypoglycemia and mineral deficiencies. I came to this conclusion more than three months ago after processing hips of information online. I thought I would be able to correct this with wise nutritional approach but now I seem I was mistaken.

In order to reverse my condition I decided to take some supplements. In the first place I will aid my adrenals with Isocort (Freeze dried Adrenal Cortex). Besides, Lex generously helped me with getting quality mineral supplement, so I will also take magnesium, calcium and iodine. I will report here on my improvement or decline. In the process I may also change my diet to a certain degree, trying to stay close to the paleo principles.

With every good wish,

Yuri
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on July 28, 2008, 05:57:56 pm
Hi Yuri,


You've had some huge stressors in your life and graduating University and finding a job/relationship and all that stuff is pretty hard!

You seem very driven as well, maybe it might be time to relax or go travelling and sit on a beach for a while (just my thoughts)

Number (4) parasitic invasion

Do you have or have you ever have had candida Yuri?

You were zero carb for a while, did you give up carbs for more than a month? was it hard for you?

is it hard for you to not eat honey/cream/sweet fruits?

Good Luck

Andrew
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on July 28, 2008, 06:27:03 pm
How to cure candida / yeast / fungi very very fast.
http://tinyurl.com/vcodetox

How to cure parasites: Use both zappers and dewormers.
http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols/parasite-cleanse

Have you seen a biological dentist yet?
http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols/dental-cleanse

Have you done the usual cleanses: colon, kidney, liver flushes?
http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols

Hulda Clark gives the best pollution avoidance measures:
http://www.curemanual.com/mind-cures-paradigm-shifts/book-cure-for-all-diseases
(download the free ebook)

Are all your food organic?

How much rest / sleep do you get?
What time do you sleep?

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on July 28, 2008, 09:16:04 pm
You might consider using other glandulars such as raw thyroid
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: coconinoz on July 29, 2008, 11:17:34 am
how about dropping all the fruits & milk products, forgetting all about them, for a week or 2?

i'm sure you must have heard about all the negative effects both have had on so many people (myself included)

also, do you have access to coconut oil (good for thyroid, liver, etc.)?

so, if you feel like doing this experiment just for the sake of exploring something different...



Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: lex_rooker on July 29, 2008, 01:12:31 pm
Hi Yuri,
I'm glad you decided to go ahead and start a journal.  As you can see there is a good bit of interest and some of the suggestions and comments you've received so far are things I never thought of and seem well worth following up.  We can only suggest what we know about and there is such a diversity here that I expect you'll get all kinds of ideas.  I'll be following along and will throw in my 2 cents if I think of anything new.

lex
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 29, 2008, 10:13:38 pm
Hi Yuri,


You've had some huge stressors in your life and graduating University and finding a job/relationship and all that stuff is pretty hard!

You seem very driven as well, maybe it might be time to relax or go travelling and sit on a beach for a while (just my thoughts)

Number (4) parasitic invasion

Do you have or have you ever have had candida Yuri?

You were zero carb for a while, did you give up carbs for more than a month? was it hard for you?

is it hard for you to not eat honey/cream/sweet fruits?

Good Luck

Andrew


Hi Andrew

Well, I don't know whether I have/or had candida or not.

I went ZERO CARB on 17 Jan 2008. It was all meat 80%+ fat diet. By end of March I developed uric acid kidney stones. Early in May I added carbs back to my diet. As April started I returned to dairy (cream).
I added cream back because I thought I just overdid with some extremely high purine foods which resulted in stones being formed. Now I understand it was most likely due to zero carbing.

In truth, it wasn't difficult to go without carbs.

And now, it's not hard to eschew honey/cream/sweet fruits. But for what reason? And where would I take the necessary carbs from? I have no slightest desire to consume vegs.

In an ideal situation, I would only eat meat and fat. But as painful experience shows, I'm not ready for it yet. Or maybe this approach is not for me completely...

sincerely,

Yuri
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 29, 2008, 10:18:57 pm
You might consider using other glandulars such as raw thyroid

Yes, surely.

Fortunately I can get raw thyroid here. However, I have seen many warnings that adrenals must be adressed first. Besides, my thyroid testing lab results came out normal (free T4 is 17.87 with 10-25 normal range, free T3 is 12.64 with 5.4-14 normal and TTH is 1.33 when 0.25-5.2 is OK). So, I presume I don’t need any thyroid supplementation at present.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 29, 2008, 10:24:15 pm
how about dropping all the fruits & milk products, forgetting all about them, for a week or 2?

i'm sure you must have heard about all the negative effects both have had on so many people (myself included)

also, do you have access to coconut oil (good for thyroid, liver, etc.)?

so, if you feel like doing this experiment just for the sake of exploring something different...


As I said before, there is nothing left I had not tried for considerably extended time periods. Eating dairy (cream) and fruits is just psychological. Mentally I can cope with meat and fat only, but my body struggles. Besides, take a note that my digestion is impaired to a larger extent which prevents me from eating certain foods.

No, coc oil isn't available.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 29, 2008, 10:40:21 pm
How to cure candida / yeast / fungi very very fast.
http://tinyurl.com/vcodetox

How to cure parasites: Use both zappers and dewormers.
http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols/parasite-cleanse

Have you seen a biological dentist yet?
http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols/dental-cleanse

Have you done the usual cleanses: colon, kidney, liver flushes?
http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols

Hulda Clark gives the best pollution avoidance measures:
http://www.curemanual.com/mind-cures-paradigm-shifts/book-cure-for-all-diseases
(download the free ebook)

Are all your food organic?

How much rest / sleep do you get?
What time do you sleep?


If I believed in parasites issue I wouldn't have been on this diet by now. There is no sense in combating parasites and continuing eating raw meats.

Candida may be an issues though, however, as in the situation with all liver/colon cleanses, it should be adressed only after the adrenals are cured.

Regarding "biological dentist"... I forget to remind all of you that advising ANY medical-related solutions is a bad idea. Let's assume I live in paleo times. It will reflect my situation very accurately .

My food is'n organic. There is no any such standards in my country. My food comes from domestically grown sheeps/cows fed mostly on grains and on grass when in season.

Since when I started suspect my adrenals to be the problem I tried to get as much sleep/rest as I could and made a rule going to bed before 10 p.m., usually by 9. I was doing it rigorously for at least one month (or more) but did not notice rejuvenation. At present I try to fall asleep as early as I can, usually around 10 p.m. I get up in 7-8 a.m.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on July 29, 2008, 10:50:07 pm
Yes, surely.

Fortunately I can get raw thyroid here. However, I have seen many warnings that adrenals must be adressed first. Besides, my thyroid testing lab results came out normal (free T4 is 17.87 with 10-25 normal range, free T3 is 12.64 with 5.4-14 normal and TTH is 1.33 when 0.25-5.2 is OK). So, I presume I don’t need any thyroid supplementation at present.

Why do adrenals need to be fixed first? Never heard of this, before.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 29, 2008, 11:03:13 pm
But cortisol also plays an important role for you as a thyroid patient. Namely, it helps cell receptors receive thyroid hormones from the blood to the cells. On the other side of the coin, low cortisol can result in high amounts of thyroid hormones to build in the blood, making your free T3 and/or free T4 labs look high in range with continuing hypo symptoms, or causing hyper-like symptoms on doses of Armour which shouldn’t produce those symptoms. The latter can include anxiety or nervousness, light-headedness, shakiness, dizziness, racing heart, sudden weakness, nausea, feeling hot, or any symptom which seems like an over-reaction to Armour, but are in reality low cortisol symptoms. Low cortisol can also keep you hypothyroid with hypo symptoms.

taken from http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/

and

52) What sequence do I treat the hormones? What about the sex hormones? If the adrenals are weak, it is best to treat the low cortisol before working up to high levels of thyroid medication. And it is best to fully support these 2 before attempting to supplement the sex hormones, as they can change after the adrenals and thyroid are supported. To put it another way, if there is an imbalance of the adrenal and thyroid hormones, it can cause problems with the other hormones. If you know that you have an imbalance, it is fine to address it, but be alert for changes as your treatment progresses.

taken from http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/faq/
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on July 29, 2008, 11:18:30 pm
But, presumably, this is only if you're using artificial hormones?  If you're just eating the raw glands, you'll be rebuilding the gland so that it produces enough of the right hormone.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Nicola on July 30, 2008, 04:52:33 am
Yuri, believe in your self; your body and mind have grate power, more than you believe. Find positive energy from words you pick up on this forum, which help your mind to grow with your body.

Perhaps you will find time to read the messages on this forum to help paint your picture - "Charles" seems worth following up:

http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/showthread.php?tid=334&page=1

I am sorry about your mother - time will heal and replenish you with the spirit you wish/choose.

Nicola
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 30, 2008, 02:40:05 pm
But, presumably, this is only if you're using artificial hormones?  If you're just eating the raw glands, you'll be rebuilding the gland so that it produces enough of the right hormone.

Well, I was also thinking that way...

There are numerous warnings in the web, for example:

"If low-thyroid people with these symptoms are put on thyroid hormone alone, they sometimes respond negatively. These people may have coexistent, but hidden, low adrenal. If they take thyroid hormone by itself, the resultant increased metabolism may accelerate the low adrenal problem.

The addition of thyroid hormone in this situation unmasks the also disturbing low adrenal situation. The proper approach in this case is to treat the patient with thyroid and adrenal support simultaneously."

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesadrenal.htm

I mean, no matter what kind of thyroid supplement you take, either in the form of raw thyroid or synthetic one, the effects of the hormones supplied is the same.

Before my kidney stones accident I was eating raw thyroid liberaly but must admit it didn't do me much good. Besides, most of the adrenal sufferers I comunicated with witnessed some harmful side-effects from thyroid supplementation without adressing adrenals first. They reported different complications and, in some cases, even "adrenal crash". That is when I understood the importance of incorporating thyroid support slowly.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 30, 2008, 02:42:54 pm
Yuri, believe in your self; your body and mind have grate power, more than you believe. Find positive energy from words you pick up on this forum, which help your mind to grow with your body.

Perhaps you will find time to read the messages on this forum to help paint your picture - "Charles" seems worth following up:

http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/showthread.php?tid=334&page=1

I am sorry about your mother - time will heal and replenish you with the spirit you wish/choose.

Nicola

Hi Nicola

Yeah, thanks for the support. Surely, I won't give up.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on July 30, 2008, 03:30:51 pm
Yes, surely.

Fortunately I can get raw thyroid here. However, I have seen many warnings that adrenals must be adressed first. Besides, my thyroid testing lab results came out normal (free T4 is 17.87 with 10-25 normal range, free T3 is 12.64 with 5.4-14 normal and TTH is 1.33 when 0.25-5.2 is OK). So, I presume I don’t need any thyroid supplementation at present.

I've had my thyroid checked twice in the last 10 years, I don't know the numbers but they were in the normal range.
Even though my tests come back 'normal' my thyroid has ached for years. If it aches really bad when I wake up and doesn't go away soon after it usually means its going to be a rather shit day. At the moment I believe mine is candida related (could be wrong?) as my die off days have seemed to coincide with thyroid ache days. There seems to be a lot of talk on the web about a candida thyroid connection both by guru's and anecdotal.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 30, 2008, 03:42:19 pm
I've had my thyroid checked twice in the last 10 years, I don't know the numbers but they were in the normal range.
Even though my tests come back 'normal' my thyroid has ached for years. If it aches really bad when I wake up and doesn't go away soon after it usually means its going to be a rather shit day. At the moment I believe mine is candida related (could be wrong?) as my die off days have seemed to coincide with thyroid ache days. There seems to be a lot of talk on the web about a candida thyroid connection both by guru's and anecdotal.

Yeah, here is the link:

http://www.naturallythriving.com/articles/candida2.php
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 04, 2008, 09:20:50 pm

The time has come. Time to realistically and pragmatically asses my general health condition. I have made overwhelming efforts to feel well. It baffles me to say at least to see no improvements. And it is really disappointing as good health is so crucially needed at this stage of my life/career. However, I must somehow get to the roots of things, understand what is wrong and fix it as soon as possible. And it is extremely tall order as I can’t see any options available as of yet. I mean, what should I change/improve as on a paper there is no way for improvement, or so it seems…

Since I started my Journal here I was trying to make up mind regarding what kind of nutritional strategy to adopt. In the process I realized that there is so much controversial diet related information in the internet that I sometimes wonder whether it is possible at all to reach any reasonable conclusion. Today, I feel like I know even less than what I did 2 or 3 years ago when I had to blindly follow a program implanted by parents. Raw or cooked? Zero-cab or low-carb? 3 meals a day or IF? Vegetables or no vegetables? SFA, MFA, PUFA? With or without salt? Macronutrients ratios etc. etc. etc.

I also have to mention that as long as any diet or dietary concept is concerned I have my hands tied as I struggle to eat normal or even minimal amount of food. If I consume more than half of lb of meat my day/night would be destroyed as a result of uneasiness and distracting feeling of presence of food in the stomach. This drives me mad.

As you all know from my previous posts I have a rather wide field of concerns. Of course, it would have been much easier to decide what to do should I know what is wrong with me. However, what is evident is that I don’t feel well to put it mildly. My major issues include poor digestion, lack of energy and pain in every possible part of my body. As I said before most of my symptoms resemble adrenal fatigue, but I still can’t be sure about it.

I was also considering candida. And it is no coincidence that it was mentioned here first thing for me to look to. But I thought if I had candida I would have benefited from my two months long zero carb  experiment. I would have continued that way of eating shouldn't I developed kidney stones. Now I see that fiber is essential in curing candida. A moderator of the anti-candida group stated that “fiber in veggies actually feeds the good bacteria in your gut so you don't want to just try to eat zero carb because you are going to get rid of candida faster, it doesn't work like that.
The fiber helps absorb toxins in your gut and sweep them out, and the nutrients help boost your immune system. Veggies are one of those things you want to choose carefully, choosing the highest nutrients and fiber veggies and ones that work for your body. Veggies are one of those things you also want to keep in balance, not too high and not too low.”

In my situation I must find a reasonable balance as far as carbs consumption is concerned, both in order to avoid reoccurrence of stones in the future and get rid of candida.

It was easy to eat some fruit and honey to maintain proper level of carbs in the diet. But if one tries to overcome candida the abovementioned foods are plainly unacceptable. And you know what, when I excluded sugary carbs (fruit/honey) I realized how difficult is to hit 50-60 g of carbs daily. In order to do that one should consume at least a kilo of veggs. And even this huge amount of plant stuff would only yield as little as 5% of estimated total caloric intake… Heck, no way one can reach Cordain’s suggestion of 35/65 ratio. A person must become a plant processing machine in order to accomplish that…

So the next step for me was to find out what foods I have to use instead. After carefully considering the situation, and bearing in mind seasonable nature of most vegetable foods in the place I live, I came to the conclusion that I will have to heavily rely on cabbage, which is available almost all year round.

And to make it palatable I chose to ferment it. On the one hand, I will have a good tasty source of fibrous carb and on the other it will provide beneficial flora in the gut.

Apart from cabbage I can only get hold of garlic and onion on the regular basis. Armed with this, I seriously intend to conquer candida, whether I have it or not.

I should mention avocados, but this product has several question marks. First, it is always imported in unripe form. Second, I cannot check the source from where it comes. Third, the price… for you to have a clear picture I may use the following analogy: 2 small avocadoes = 20 local reference units = 1 kilo of organs = one lb of the cheapest muscle meat = 10 kilos of marrow bones = 20 kilos of cabbage. So this is not satisfactory option.

Well, lets proceed to the practical aspects now…

As of the 1-rst of August I decided to make several crucial decisions related to the diet. First of all, I realized that I have never tried low carb diet which is low in sugar. I experimented with zero carb (unsuccessfully) but as long as I added back some carbs they inevitably came from fruits or honey, i.e. sugary sources. That is why I came to the conclusion that I should try zero sugar but very low carb diet. Low carb because for the reasons explained above as one cannot eat enough carbs without sugars and starches. And to my delight, no sugar diet is good for both, poor adrenal and healing candida. A kind of win-win situation.

Next, since I seriously decided to clear myself from candida, whether I have it or not, I can no longer eat any dairy… so despite I hate wasting any food, I had to throw away the leftovers of cream by Friday, as this was the day when I adopted my new strategy. This job was eased at that moment by the fact that I stopped to consider dairy as a food…

Yes, you got me right. No diary, no sugar (honey, fruit whatsoever else). Just organs, meat, marrow and cabbage ;) I want to avoid intermittent fasting so I would eat twice per day, before I leave home for work and after I get back. I will also take some calcium/magnesium supplements for a while to calm myself and ease concerns related to the possible lack of nutrients which may result from such diet or be due to my poor digestion. I will also report when I get hold of adrenal cortex extract.

So, here is my test philosophy in a nutshell:
1 NO SUGAR, NO DAIRY, NO STARCH
2 AT LEAST some carbs to prevent stones formation and provide body with completely oxidized faty acids
3 minimal mineral supplements
4 raw paleo diet, meats and marrow
5 IsoCort (pending)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: boxcarguy07 on August 04, 2008, 09:37:29 pm
Good idea on fermenting the cabbage.
When I read that you were going to start eating cabbage, I was going to respond saying "You should ferment it and that might help with your digestion!"
But lo and behold! I read the next paragraph and you had already decided that!

Best wishes to you, Yuri!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 08, 2008, 04:41:05 pm
On the first of August, barely a week ago, I made a complete overhaul of my diet. From that moment on I have been trying to come up with solid, well reasoned macronutrients ratios and decide on appropriate daily eating schedule. Here are some of the conclusions that I have reached.

As you know, since I decided to avoid sugar and starch it appeared extremely difficult to obtain at least minimal amount of carbohydrates from other sources. In order to do that I must consume around a kilo of vegetables daily, which I thought would be impossible with my digestion problems. On taking thought it seemed to me that I must aim at maximum efficiency, simplicity and utility.

After ruminating about it for a period of time, by trial and error, suddenly it came to me how it could be done. During the past week I had enough time to try different approaches and choose the most suitable one. Initially I ate two meat meals, one in the morning and one late in night right before going to bed. The morning meal made me uncomfortable for the best part of the day, so I had to sacrifice it. That allowed me to consume more vegetables during the day and I was able to reach the desirable minimum for carbohydrates intake. If I hadn’t done that I would have had to significantly increase my protein intake to compensate for the inadequately low carbohydrates and provide necessary glucose for the brain and muscles through protein gluconeogenesis. With my sluggish digestion and impaired metabolism it wasn't a good idea. Besides, I it seems that any protein meal makes me feel awful for prolonged periods of time. In this situation I would have been under a great danger of harming myself even more. Besides, the never-ending dull pain in the kidney area prompts me to think that my kidneys aren't in optimal state as well. What in turn supposes minimal protein intake to lessen load on kidneys. With all that in mind, I came to the conclusion that it would be best to finish my day with a meat meal while eating cabbage for the rest of the time. This measure was perfectly rational and well-judged.

As for the amounts of carbohydrates, proteins and fats there weren’t any doubts or much thinking after the daily schedule had been agreed. All in all I ended up with ratios very close or similar to Optimal Diet, a dietary model of human nutrition devised and implemented by Dr. Jan Kwasniewski. He suggests that the ideal proportion between the main food components of protein, fat and carbohydrates should be in the range of 1 : 2.5 - 3.5 : 0.5. You can familiarize yourself with his teachings here:
http://homodiet.netfirms.com/index.html
http://www.cybernaut.com.au/optimal_nutrition/optimal/optimal_nutrition.html

In a nutshell, my health oriented approach basically consists of about a kilo of fermented cabbage eaten during the day and one meat/organ and marrow meal consumed before going to bed.

Yuri
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 26, 2008, 05:12:02 pm
Now I think I’m ready to post a new report on my health condition. I ask you in advance to forgive me any negativity. If you are too sensitive person I wouldn’t recommend reading this.

Just to remind you, about a month ago I decided to try a raw Paleolithic diet based on meats/organs and vegetables. I eliminated from my diet any fruits and dairy. Besides, throughout these four weeks I have been taking some supplements to help my adrenals. It is just the right time to sum up what I have achieved, at least because I’m still able to do that.

Don’t get me wrong, I would surely have liked to report my progress here. This is just what it all is about. Even if I had the slightest indication of any possible forthcoming improvement I would have remained upbeat. However, and it's a sad truth, I feel don't have a ghost of a chance to succeed or even survive. Let me explain why I’m so pessimistic.

The first major major challenge I was faced with on this diet was to get an adequate or minimal amount of carbs. It appeared to be extremely difficult to achieve that without such easy sources like high sugary fruits, honey or even dairy. Just like most of you here, I’m frightened by the very thought of eating vegetables in any significant amount. However, in order to provide a nominal 40 grams of carbs, I had to consume about a kilo of those nasty vegs daily.

After careful consideration of all the possibilities I came to the conclusion that I had to mostly rely on cabbage. To make it palatable I decided to ferment it, what, in turn, would have also provided me with beneficial bacteria. It didn't really happen like that. Primarily, I experienced two main issues with eating so much sauerkraut, namely eroding of enamel and severe gas/bloating/diarrhea. My teeth hurt so much that I wasn’t able to chew fat or anything at all. Gut pains and cramps became intense and intolerable.

I had to look for other options. I minimized my kraut intake and gradually got used to eating the cabbage raw, as it is. I didn’t like it but I thought I had to. It didn’t last long as I have found soon after that cabbage contains goitrogens, naturally-occurring substances in certain foods that can interfere with the functioning of the thyroid gland. Individuals with already existing and untreated thyroid problems may want to avoid cabbage for this reason. As a result, I had to stop eating cruciferous vegetables.

After some hesitation I decided to eat sweet peppers and/or tomatoes. In a sense it might have been the only possible solution. I was frustrated to find out later that these foods were members of the nightshade family. Some researchers have speculated that nightshade alkaloids can contribute to excessive loss of calcium from bone and excessive depositing of calcium in soft tissue. For this reason, these researchers have recommended elimination of nightshade foods from the meal plans of all individuals with osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, or other joint problems like gout. And I wouldn’t want that with the past history of forming urate stones.

At the end of the day I don’t know what to eat to supply my carbs. Was it wise to exclude fruits, dairy and honey? Would I benefit from these raw vegetables? As of now I don’t have the answers.

As for the supplementation, I started calcium/magnesium on the first of August. On the ninth I received IsoCort and from that moment on I had been slowly taking it as well. About a week or so ago I also added some iodine in the form of unheated herbal substance.

Let’s now proceed on the issue of my health or I’d better say the lack of it.

Well, as for me, I’m really scared about my condition. I have constant bouts of fatigue, brain fog, weakness (I’m not able to workout/exercise anymore, it’s even hard to walk), overall the quality of my life sucks and I am a shell of the person I once was. The people around me don't seem to realize just how bad and severe this is. I'm barely able to function anymore.

Apart from myriad of debilitating symptoms there are a few which clearly stand out. These are the dark circles under eyes, poor digestion and stomach pains, continuous and increasing dull back pain in the kidney area and severe pain in my knees. The latter two became more intense over the past four weeks. Lately, they significantly interfere with my sleep. This is the terrible pain 24-hours a day.

The worst part is there is no clear cut cure for this. I can’t think of what can be improved in my diet. My life is seemingly changed forever at 24 years of age. My future that I had always dreamed of and looked forward to is filled with misery and sadness.

I'm 24 years old and my life is in shambles right now. I’m not only tired of life I’m tired of being sick. I have so little reserves left. This feeling of helplessness reminds me so much about my vegan crash. Words fail me to describe the way I feel (or the way I struggle)…

I think it will be resolved one way or another. But I’m almost sure it won’t be in my favour. I can feel it coming. I mean, I’m really serious that I may die. This is too much pain to bear. So if I’m not responding here for a long time, be sure I appreciated your friendship!

with the hope,

Yuri
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Satya on August 26, 2008, 05:43:33 pm
Yuri,

Continue to hope and try new things.  Perhaps you should try one thing at a time for carbs; either fruit or dairy or honey.  Which one is most appealing to you?  If you have no problem with dairy, maybe you should try that, just because is has more calories and fat per volume too.  But perhaps the fruit is better?  Honey should not be a staple food imo, and with tooth problems, it may not be the best choice. 

Also, why not eat more than one time a day?  Perhaps you need a couple of meals for calories and overall nutrient absorption.  You must find what will work for you as an individual, rather than what may work for others.  Can you get ahold of some dried seaweed?  That is good for thyroid health, and can be a well-tolerated vegetable food in general.  I am sorry that I did not think about goitrogens when we were discussing sauerkraut!

I am sure other people may have better advice.  But hang in there and keep trying.  Tyler, what do you suggest?  You have come through major health issues on a rpd.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 26, 2008, 06:41:46 pm
I think I don't have problems with any of these. But these foods are forbidden on anti-candida diet and I was eating all of them to a lesser or larger extent right before I started my journal here...

I stopped intermittent fasting early in April. I may not have been accurate enough in my previous posts about it.
And yes, I can get here a kelp-like herbal supplement of iodine.

That is all I can do.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on August 26, 2008, 07:00:20 pm
Are you taking raw thyroid as well as raw adrenal?

Have you seen a doctor re all this, yet? I mean if it's truly dangerous and  adrenal-related,  such as with addison's disease, it's absolutely essential  to get cortisol injections. Though, it'sunlikely to be  as severe as that.

Also, the thing with adrenals is to avoid over-stimulation(alcohol/violent exercise etc.) in general, as that weakens the adrenals.

What concerns me is that you've made multiple changes in your diet and you're still facing issues. This suggests to me that you may have some condition that either isn't diet-related at all  or is related to some long-term nutritional deficiency which you've overlooked. Is "high-meat" effective re digestion-issues? I take it my past suggestion re enzymes didn't work for you? What about adaptogenic/stress-relieving herbs like siberian ginseng, schisandra, astragalus etc.? I'll admit these herbs were useless in fixing my health-problems pre-rawpalaeo diet, but I was in a Raw Vegan/fruitarian phase for most of that time, so they might work on a more healthy RAF diet.

I do apologise re my previous suggestion re Intermittent Fasting as it failed to work for you. I'm now more careful to warn against doing IF if one happens to have  adrenal-related issues - (though, contrariwise, IF did work for me pretty well when I switched, early on in the diet, from eating all through the day to 1 large meal a day, despite my own adrenal-related issues at the time).

I take it you were 100% healthy prior to doing raw vegan, or am I wrong re this?

Normally, I don't recommend supplements unless they're just raw glands, but this is a special case. Have you considered using hormones such as pregnenolone(a precursor for several hormones in the human body), mentioned by Ray Peat?  I've heard conflicting reports re success on it  as well as horror-stories re side-effects re this supplement, so, IMO, only small doses should be attempted for short periods(10mg). I'm grasping a bit at straws here, but if your symptoms are really serious, then that sort of hormone-regime(preferably supervised by a doctor) might work, for all I know.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on August 26, 2008, 07:32:54 pm
How about taking the herb  licorice? It's supposed to be useful for adrenal fatigue.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 26, 2008, 07:37:57 pm
Are you taking raw thyroid as well as raw adrenal?

Have you seen a doctor re all this, yet? I mean if it's truly dangerous and  adrenal-related,  such as with addison's disease, it's absolutely essential  to get cortisol injections. Though, it'sunlikely to be  as severe as that.

Also, the thing with adrenals is to avoid over-stimulation(alcohol/violent exercise etc.) in general, as that weakens the adrenals.

What concerns me is that you've made multiple changes in your diet and you're still facing issues. This suggests to me that you may have some condition that either isn't diet-related at all  or is related to some long-term nutritional deficiency which you've overlooked. Is "high-meat" effective re digestion-issues? I take it my past suggestion re enzymes didn't work for you? What about adaptogenic/stress-relieving herbs like siberian ginseng, schisandra, astragalus etc.? I'll admit these herbs were useless in fixing my health-problems pre-rawpalaeo diet, but I was in a Raw Vegan/fruitarian phase for most of that time, so they might work on a more healthy RAF diet.

I do apologise re my previous suggestion re Intermittent Fasting as it failed to work for you. I'm now more careful to warn against doing IF if one happens to have  adrenal-related issues - (though, contrariwise, IF did work for me pretty well when I switched, early on in the diet, from eating all through the day to 1 large meal a day, despite my own adrenal-related issues at the time).

I take it you were 100% healthy prior to doing raw vegan, or am I wrong re this?

I don't take thyroid because, as it was pointed before, adrenals should be adressed first.

When I was in the hospital with kidney stones I tried to ask doctors if I had adrenal fatigue. It seems they heard it from me for the first time.

Now I supplement with Isocort, the freeze-dried adrenal cortex extract and it contains some cortisol naturally. I think no any additional herbs are needed.

Currently I have some "high-meat" in the fridge. I'm hesitant whether to consume it or not. I think that maybe a person with weak health like me won't benefit from it at all. And as I remember from the past I didn't benefit from it in terms of increased energy etc.

As for the enzymes I can't find them here. I think I have to order them from abroad. I am gonna look some online sources.

Yes, it may be true that I have a rather serious health issue which cannot be helped by diet alone or is harder to overcome. Maybe I have chronic kidney disease? Maybe meats are bad for me? Maybe i still suffer from high in purines organs and marrow? As soon as I get the opportunity to check whether I have the reoccurrence of stones I will know for sure whether meats or zero-carbing were to blame back then.

I think yes, I was healthy before vegan diet. I mean, it wasn't perfect, but I was a good soccer player, exercised and spent all nights long with females ;)

From the very first day of my life and till 23 I was living off of carbs mostly. Our local traditional diet is bread, potatoes (second bread), different porridges, little vegs, rare fruit in the season and occasional meat. Fat is usually derived from sunflower.

When I started raw animal food diet, i.e. Primal Diet with plenty of dairy, honey and some fruits, I improved tremendously as compared to my previous raw vegan experience. After a mere 4 month on that diet I was able to enjoy my life once again. Then happened something which wrecked my recovery and put me a long way back. I can only think of two things:
1)parasitic invasion
2)Intermittent fasting

I think that I might have got infected with parasites on raw meats diet. But I wonder why I was feeling better after four months on raw meats... If parasites were to blame, I would have probably suffered from a start.

And, what is most interestingly, my downhill began when I started to eat only once daily or even once every other day. I did change little in my diet at that point. I eliminated dairy and increased organ meats consumption. I stopped honey and only ate a piece of fruit daily. But what was changed that was my eating pattern.
My assumption is that a practice of infrequent eating caused too much stress both mentally and physically, slowed down metabolism which affected my thyroid and finally worn out my adrenals which were under pretty much stress even before that.
You don't have to apologise, we make our own choices and we are responsible for them. Clearly, IF works for some. But it appears not for all.

sincerely

Yuri
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on August 26, 2008, 07:47:07 pm
My first thought from the start was that your symptoms sound stress related but I would get a check up with a Doctor just to make sure there is nothing serious.
1) If you had candida and after no carbs for a few days you would definitely know about it. Eating 1 kg of cabbage a day would be hard work both mentally and physically. I doubt you have candida.
2) Stress can have huge impact on your body. Chronic fatigue, head aches, brain fog etc
3) I would quit my search for a diet related cure if I was you, this could be adding to the frustration. You've tried everything by the sounds of it. You diet is exceptional you should not be getting sicker.

I worked with a guy who after years and years of pressure of working with our tyrant of a boss (this is no under statement)  slowly got sicker and sicker until he ended up in emergency with his organs shutting down (he was only 29 years old) he was in serious condition,  after a few day in hospital he declared he would quit his job it was 'killing him'  from that point on he completely recovered. He was good guy, excellent worker and ended up getting  better paying job.

Please disregard my thoughts if you believe that I'm way off the mark.

Andrew





Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 26, 2008, 08:21:45 pm
I cannot but agree.

And I also tend to believe that stress is the main contributing factor. But I cannot quit the job like that guy did. I would have to quit my life... And my unsuccessful dietary attempts only add to the overall stress.

I am now in serious doubt that my new anti-candida approach is optimal. Basing on the results I have got after one month I have yet to see why fruits, honey and dairy are inferior to vegetables. The plant foods contain way too much toxic substances and are unsafe if eaten raw, as opposed to mentioned controversial foods.

Yuri
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on August 26, 2008, 08:26:07 pm
What I find odd is that adrenal fatigue sites often mention that animal-foods are badly digested by adrenal fatigue-sufferers, but then recommend cutting down on carbs as they overstimulate the adrenals, apparently. This doesn't leave much of a choice. Fortunately, for me, early on in the diet, I found that raw meats, especially raw organ-meats, involved no problems with digestion, unlike the cooked meats.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 26, 2008, 08:47:29 pm
Yes Geoff, that is just what I was thinking about recently. It appears to be a catch-22 for adrenal sufferer. Meats are important but cannot be digested... And I think that the EM will not be effective enough in this situation. It is necessary to take Digestion enzymes, i.e. Ultimate Digestion Formula, Peter Gillham's Natural Vitality. It is cheap at 5-10$ but shipment to Ukraine is hard to find.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Satya on August 26, 2008, 09:23:01 pm
Here's a great article on adrenal function:

http://www.westonaprice.org/archive/tintera.html
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 26, 2008, 09:32:10 pm
Thanks Satya!

I have heard about SP. But keep in mind that I live in Ukraine and cannot get prescription for them (as far as I know SP supps require prescription). Besides, if I manage to find them somehow in the web, the problem with delivery would still remain.

As regards my weight... This is another story. As you may know from my pictures I was pretty skinny after vegan setback. Over the first four months on the Primal Diet I added a massive 60 lbs of weight (from 110 to 175 lbs). As I said earlier it was mostly fat gain. But I couldn't have though it might have been from hormonal imbalance. I was loosing extra weight easily on intermittent fasting. I fluctuated between 140 and 145 lbs. But I was perplexed by the remaining stubborn abdominal fat. Now I realize that adrenals/thyroid might have its role there as well.

As of now, I cannot loose an ounce no matter what. And despite this is not my goal, I just state the fact. My weight is stable at 155 lbs. And it sits mainly around my waist and hips. Another indication of weak adrenals…

Yuri
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on August 26, 2008, 09:54:40 pm


And I also tend to believe that stress is the main contributing factor. But I cannot quit the job like that guy did. I would have to quit my life... And my unsuccessful dietary attempts only add to the overall stress.

Yuri

That was just an example of what stress can do to a healthy person. I'm not recommending you quitting your job unless it's making you ill.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 26, 2008, 10:19:19 pm
Who knows, with my present state of health I may have no option but to retire early... And it seems that the time is not far off when it happens;)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: boxcarguy07 on August 26, 2008, 10:30:18 pm
Yuri, you mention digestive enzymes...
There is a product called Vitalzym that I've seen touted on other message boards as being extremely effective.
It is rather expensive though, but I'm pretty sure you could get it shipped to Ukraine.

I don't really know anything about this supplement other than people saying that it works very well, but I thought I'd just let you know about it.
Cheers!  :)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Satya on August 26, 2008, 10:33:55 pm
Thanks Satya!

You may now delete that personal info.

I have heard about SP. But keep in mind that I live in Ukraine and cannot get prescription for them (as far as I know SP supps require prescription). Besides, if I manage to find them somehow in the web, the problem with delivery would still remain.

As regards my weight... This is another story. As you may know from my pictures I was pretty skinny after vegan setback. Over the first four months on the Primal Diet I added a massive 60 lbs of weight (from 110 to 175 lbs). As I said earlier it was mostly fat gain. But I couldn't have though it might have been from hormonal imbalance. I was loosing extra weight easily on intermittent fasting. I fluctuated between 140 and 145 lbs. But I was perplexed by the remaining stubborn abdominal fat. Now I realize that adrenals/thyroid might have its role there as well.

As of now, I cannot loose an ounce no matter what. And despite this is not my goal, I just state the fact. My weight is stable at 155 lbs. And it sits mainly around my waist and hips. Another indication of weak adrenals…

Yuri

Yuri,

Take the herbs Tyler recommended.  Licorice root comes as a tea sometimes.  I do know that Dr. Ken Taylor (the local doctor from Dallas TX) says to be careful about taking too much of the ginseng.  Take it, but he has told me (yes, I have had minor adrenal issues) that it will make you feel good, and then you take too much and suffer.

Don't worry about the weight now.  But why do you feel you need carbs anyway?  How about a high fat diet with moderately low protein?  I am not suggesting zero carb, but perhaps less carbs will help the adrenals heal?

Thank you for sharing.  I wish you all the best in repairing your health by the least invasive means possible.  And you are a true friend.  Did you know you are helping me?  I can be a bad girl and drink coffee, which is the one thing that has caused me adrenal fatigue.  And I just read that article on the glands to my kids, as they have been known to eat the high carb crap, until very recently.  So thank you.

Get well!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 26, 2008, 10:51:47 pm
Thanks for the Vitalzym suggestion. I will see if I can get it shipped here.

I think this one is also a good source, but unfortunately they don't ship internationally. http://www.radiantlifecatalog.com/prod.cfm/ct/2/pid/1065

I don't know if I need carbs at all. Over the last weekend I didn't eat any, I just took a rest from plants. I say I have tried everything you can imagine but still failed to notice any improvement whatsoever... What do you mean by saying less carbs? 10? I consume about 20-30g these days.
Even tomatoes taste way too sweet to me... I don't eat much...

Yuri
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Nicola on August 27, 2008, 02:45:31 am
Hyponatremia:

Salt balance is also controlled by our adrenals, which use the mineralocorticoids (hormones) to maintain salt (electrolyte) balance. They control the reabsorption of sodium and the secretion of potassium from the renal tubules. Persons avoiding salt will experience low blood pressure, dizziness, chronic fatigue, poor digestion and hypoadrenal function. Their digestive problems come from the lack of HCl, which we stated would cause deficient mineral absorption. Fatigue sets in when the adrenals become exhausted and anemia may result from deficient absorption of iron caused by the lack of HCl. Their ability to make energy (ATP/ADP) is hampered by the lack of essential minerals (ions) needed for activation of enzymes. Avoidance of salt will create all of these problems in time, because salt is (despite other claims to the contrary) essential to life. Persons who avoid salt will suffer fatigue, poor digestion, low blood pressure, and possibly anemia.

http://www.pensgard.com/nutrition/13_Salt_Good.htm

Nicola
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 27, 2008, 02:42:00 pm
Hi Nicola

Thanks for the info.

I know about correlation of salt, adrenals and digestion. I was thinking about that as well. For this reason, since the end of April, I have made several attempts to incorporate salt back into my diet. Each morning I used to drink a cup of water with added teaspoon of sea salt. I even went as far as consuming some raw bovine blood. However, after a while, I stopped doing that.

As of now, I usually don't have any salt at all. But recently, when I tried eating sauerkraut in large amounts, I experienced strange reaction from extra salt in it. My face and eyes became puffy and eyes were swelling somewhere from the inside.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 27, 2008, 03:01:19 pm
Yuri,

Thank you for sharing.  I wish you all the best in repairing your health by the least invasive means possible.  And you are a true friend.  Did you know you are helping me?  I can be a bad girl and drink coffee, which is the one thing that has caused me adrenal fatigue.  And I just read that article on the glands to my kids, as they have been known to eat the high carb crap, until very recently.  So thank you.

Get well!

Yeah, this is just what wee need here, to learn from each other.

Well, I may not be experienced enough to give any advice related to the kids upbringing, however I would like to express my point of view.

Surely, junk food is extremely bad for kids or adults. But I don't think it can be as harmful as stress is. There is so many regular people around me, they eat refined flours, sugars, processed oils and meats, products loaded with chemicals, etc. but as long as they don't care they remain relatively healthy, at least they are not thinking that their's days are numbered at the age of 24... So I doubt any benefits of strict dietary prohibitions as they may bring too much stress. And I have seen so many examples of that. It would be reasonable to find a balance, give some freedom, make some warnings.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: coconinoz on August 27, 2008, 03:48:15 pm

hi yuri,
a while ago, when you began talking about cabbage i immediately wanted to mention it's a goitrogen, yet i refrained from doing so for 2 reasons:
~ i sense some hostility against my posts on this forum (not from you, lex, kristelle) -- but who cares: i was just talking with you (which i did: in my mind)
~ it sounded as if you had set your mind hard on a perceived need of plant carbs

in my case, i do not consider plant carbs to be human food at all -- but that's just me

1 thing i want to bring up this time is a consideration of bee products
bee products are not plants; bee products are a natural synergy of plant & animal food
if i were you -- which i am not -- i'd take 1 tsp fresh (neither prefrozen or overdried) bee pollen daily, since it's loaded with aminoacids, vitamins, minerals, volatile elements... all predigested for you; of honey, mostly sugars, i'd take a tiny 1ce in a while & always together with some fat (suet or marrow, perhaps)

also, i sure stay away from all cereal or legume grains as well as from all kinds of milk products
this is based on my own longterm personal experience, which coincides with loads & loads of materials anyone can find online

re. salt:
in my own experience & that of others, both insufficient & excessive salt result in edema (water retention); this is, again, something 1 can read about online
1 thing to consider in this regard is that the edema from lack of salt (hyponatremia), or water drinking with no food, in extreme cases can flood the brain with fluids

so here's what i do:
prepare a brine with sea salt (the less dried the better), water down the brine after a while, use a dropper to pour a little diluted brine on everything that enters my mouth, solid or liquid
in other words, i do not use a single grain of salt in my food; i do use diluted brine in all -- & this practice has made a huuuge difference in my life
it sure makes a lot of sense in my mind: salt comes from the ocean, where it's always dissolved

ok, i better stop rambling

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: boxcarguy07 on August 27, 2008, 07:25:16 pm
an idea for salt that Paul Chek advocates, is adding sea salt to all your water, in the amount that would be as much as you can without tasting it.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 27, 2008, 08:44:50 pm
an idea for salt that Paul Chek advocates, is adding sea salt to all your water, in the amount that would be as much as you can without tasting it.

Thanks for the tip...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 27, 2008, 09:02:14 pm

hi yuri,
a while ago, when you began talking about cabbage i immediately wanted to mention it's a goitrogen, yet i refrained from doing so for 2 reasons:
~ i sense some hostility against my posts on this forum (not from you, lex, kristelle) -- but who cares: i was just talking with you (which i did: in my mind)
~ it sounded as if you had set your mind hard on a perceived need of plant carbs

Yeah, at least it didn't take me long to know this...


in my case, i do not consider plant carbs to be human food at all -- but that's just me

Honestly, me too... I have had enough during my raw vegan days...


1 thing i want to bring up this time is a consideration of bee products
bee products are not plants; bee products are a natural synergy of plant & animal food
if i were you -- which i am not -- i'd take 1 tsp fresh (neither prefrozen or overdried) bee pollen daily, since it's loaded with aminoacids, vitamins, minerals, volatile elements... all predigested for you; of honey, mostly sugars, i'd take a tiny 1ce in a while & always together with some fat (suet or marrow, perhaps)

This is just what I was doing in May. I ate meat, egg yolks, fat and pollen. I think with my digestion problems I will have to consider honey/pollen option again. So much vegs (a kilo daily) yields as little as 30-40 g. of carbs. This amount can be easily covered by a tbsp or two of honey.

This must surely reduce the total dietary load on my stomach which, in turn, may decrease the total stress. Because foods, which sit in the stomach during waking hours, constantly remind me of my health problems, which I would like to avoid... And, besides, I can get bee products of exceptional quality here.


also, i sure stay away from all cereal or legume grains as well as from all kinds of milk products
this is based on my own longterm personal experience, which coincides with loads & loads of materials anyone can find online

Situation with cereal or legume grains is clear, but dairy is so controversial... But I do stay away from it.


re. salt:
in my own experience & that of others, both insufficient & excessive salt result in edema (water retention); this is, again, something 1 can read about online
1 thing to consider in this regard is that the edema from lack of salt (hyponatremia), or water drinking with no food, in extreme cases can flood the brain with fluids

so here's what i do:
prepare a brine with sea salt (the less dried the better), water down the brine after a while, use a dropper to pour a little diluted brine on everything that enters my mouth, solid or liquid
in other words, i do not use a single grain of salt in my food; i do use diluted brine in all -- & this practice has made a huuuge difference in my life
it sure makes a lot of sense in my mind: salt comes from the ocean, where it's always dissolved

ok, i better stop rambling



I think I have to try one of the suggested methods...

Yuri
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 27, 2008, 09:59:49 pm
My plans regarding digestion enzymes are still in the air. First of all I don’t know whether I will benefit from them or not. I’m not sure what kind to look for, cheap (about 10$) or expensive (100+$). Also the issue is in amount, 100 caps or 500… My thinking is that I need the least support because I believe I can digest the foods I eat. Not optimally, but still can. If it was not so, I would have become emaciated by this time.

The basic recommendation for the digestion enzymes is to take before meals to replace the naturally occurring enzymes lost during cooking, processing, and preparation of the average mixed diet. It’s not about me, isn’t it?

I understand that Vitalzym may be potent for many persons. But its list of other ingredients (cellulose, maltodextrin, silicon dioxide, magnesium stearate, riboflavin, and chlorophyllin) makes its appropriateness questionable for me, as these additional fillers may significantly reduce the effect of IsoCort and retard the healing of adrenals. The Pregest Cultured Enzymes seem to be friendlier in this regard, but I am yet to solve the shipping issue.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Raw Kyle on September 01, 2008, 10:24:53 pm
Check out Neprinol. It's made by some of the people that made Vitalzym but only has one filler ingredient (dextrose I believe) in the cellulose pill. It also has another enzyme not in the Vitalzym formula, and it's more concentrated so you don't have to take as many pills.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 08, 2008, 10:41:47 pm
From the very first day there was the dawning realization that, however I struggled, I was fighting a losing battle. Nevertheless it pertains to human nature to cherish a forlorn hope, and it is difficult or impossible to dispense with illusions.

Probably, I've tried every remedy suggested by raw paleo science. It was a long and adventurous journey. I deeply regret it didn’t work out for me. Or am I jumping the gun?

You see, I really don’t know what to do. I’m at loss. On taking thought it seemed to me that I must aim at… at what? What do I have to long for? What steps to take…? Wait? I'd wait till the cows come home. But at the back of my mind I clearly understand that I’m showing a steady deterioration in my condition day by day. My problems became every day more clamant. I fear to think what may happen soon.

A reasonable person would be expected to seek professional advice from a qualified physician. But what medicine can offer? Drugs to speed up the process?

Still, I am too young to shut the door on life. But I cannot do anything to prevent it. As the days go by I am becoming more and more out of touch with realities, unworldly person.

I've had my day and I've enjoyed it. But no longer do I find pleasure in living. I am world-weary. Look, I'm already through. Like, I'm wasted… How I am tired of all this!

I’m stuck in helplessness and hopelessness. I have myriad of symptoms which seem will never go away. My body is crying out for relief.

Well, so far the results are showing that things are in a bad way. I came to the conclusion that vegetables are not worth the candle. But their elimination poses a problem related to providing at least some minimal amount of carbs in the diet. Fruit season is over. But wait, I can’t just turn back to eating fruits and meat. I was there before and it led me to where I’m now. And yes, on top of that I cannot digest foods in adequate amounts.

I have to think up something effective. As unemployed I will have a plenty of time for that. I know I will loose my job soon. It is inevitable as my productivity goes down. Maybe, lemon juice and eggs diet?

Oh, I have to mention that I was able to find some licorice root and wormwood. Now I drink several tablespoons of tea made from it. It seems I would be banned from posting here for my non-paleo thinking ;)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on September 08, 2008, 10:53:05 pm
You know, Yuri, you really should get a doctor to examine you. I agree that medicines/drugs are mostly useless, but, for all you know, you might be suffering from something specific(a mineral-deficiency or whatever) that the doctor might be able to diagnose. When I started on my search for better health, I was prepared to do anything at all to reach that goal, no matter how awkward, if I'd set myself any standards at the time(eg:- eat no "disgusting" foods like raw meat), I would be dead by now for sure. So try absolutely  everything, including the option of a doctor.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 08, 2008, 11:00:28 pm
You just mentioned mineral-deficiency... What kind of minerals? Calcium/Magnesium? It's hard to realise why I became extremely mineral deficient on paleo diet...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on September 08, 2008, 11:10:49 pm
You just mentioned mineral-deficiency... What kind of minerals? Calcium/Magnesium? It's hard to realise why I became extremely mineral deficient on paleo diet...

I don't know either. I just came up with it as a possibility out of the blue. All I meant to say was that doctors are fallible human beings and make mistakes, but their business is health-related so they may know something you don't. A healthy diet can sort out a lot of things but it can't perform miracles such as surgery(you mentioned something about kidney-stones a while back, for example), and there are always going to be different issues for each individual, not all of which can be solved by diet.

I may hate doctors, but I have to admit that the whole weston-price notion of regrowing one's teeth didn't work for me, so I'm grateful that I had certain very painful holes in my teeth filled up by a dentist, pre-raw diet. And another doctor managed to perfectly fix my broken right leg when I was 4. Neither of these operations would have been fixable with just a raw animal food diet, so I'm sure that doctors have their uses, even though they failed to detect, let alone solve other issues.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on September 09, 2008, 07:29:14 am
A few years ago I was pretty bad, I had completely lost sight and could not see the Forrest for the trees (i don't know if they have that saying in the Ukraine) I didn't know what to do, my health was failing I was on a fairly self destructive path.

 I thought my life was over. It can work out.




Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: boxcarguy07 on September 09, 2008, 07:30:49 am
Yes... never give up!

A positive mindset is at least half of the battle! It is so important!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 09, 2008, 06:17:56 pm
Thanks for the great saying. I checked my dictionary and found it there. And here is another good one, especially for me: What can't be cured, must be endured.

Well, I have to apologize for my negativity. It should not have to be this way. But I want to be honest and sincere. And you know what, after I had had my say here yesterday, I felt slightly better. I fairly unleashed my concerns and it did help.

In his book We Want to Live Aajonus defines Indigestion as poor digestion accompanied by a feeling of fullness, discomfort, and any or all of the following symtoms: pain, cramps, heartburn, nausea, belching, flatulence.

He says that “eating a diet of unheated honey with warm or room temp raw milk for 2-6 weeks quickly aids digestion. If raw milk is problematic, eat a diet of 1 raw egg every 60-90minutes followed with 1tsp raw cream and 1/8 tsp unheated honey for 2-6 weeks, until symptoms subside.

Recently, somebody posted on the primal diet group another weird Aajonus’ suggestion. He was talking about “water damage from drinking too much water and no digestion left”. AV advised to eat only eggs (18 a day) and milk to rebuild the cells for 2 years. He said the cells were too weak to eat meat.

I hate to say that, but maybe there is a bit of sense? I know eggs, dairy etc. are not paleo things, but what if that may help?

When I think of such a diet, based on dairy and eggs, I recall my childhood and youth. These two products were staple for me all that time.

Ha-ha, you can see how sad my state is as I even started to consider dairy and honey again! Indeed, I’d like to hear your opinions on the above statements!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on September 09, 2008, 06:37:20 pm
Try everything, like I said(doctors/dairy, whatever). Just don't stick to one remedy for ages if it doesn't work.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on September 09, 2008, 06:39:31 pm
I hit rock bottom a few years ago, you might be heading there, sometimes that's just the thing you need.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 09, 2008, 09:24:09 pm
I hit rock bottom a few years ago, you might be heading there, sometimes that's just the thing you need.



Well, as I said before, I had the experience of reaching the lower limit. It happened after three month of high fruit vegan trial… I was so weak and emancipated back then that I wasn’t able to open PET bottle of water. I didn’t even think of going up the stairs two at a time...

But still I was not frightened too much. When I realized how wrong I was I changed my diet. And I started to improve, with ever-increasing success. In fact it seemed to have gone from strength to strength. Now it is different and that worries hell outa me!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on September 09, 2008, 10:20:03 pm
you looked healthy in your 4th photo, relaxed, heaps of muscle , tan etc do what you were doing there?

It sounds like now you've run out of options and have lost control of your health (scary), but when you were recovering from raw vegan and you were a lot physically sicker than you are now, you at least had some control over your health (you were able to make improvements (not so scary))


Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 09, 2008, 11:29:18 pm
Yeah, that is true, I'm scared.

Honestly, I think that picture does not square with reality. My good look was primarily due to exercises. But I still had to force myself and squeeze the last drops of energy to keep up. Besides I was able to eat adequate amounts of food. Still, even at that time, I was trying to find where I was wrong, as I lacked the energy and generally was not feeling well.

In hindsight, I have to admit that my health took a turn for the worse and deteriorated continuously from the moment when I began intermittent fasting. I didn’t want to believe that I couldn’t eat once per day as I really liked the idea.

All in all, back then I faced the race against time to decide my health issues. I never made it as in two months time I was in the hospital with kidney stones.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Satya on September 09, 2008, 11:29:56 pm
Hi Yuri,

I am going to be a heretic and suggest bone broths as a possible temporary bridge towards better health.  They may be cooked, but some of the constituents like minerals and amino acids might help repair and build you up.  Otherwise, I have no idea what to suggest, as you are eating, what seems to me like, a reasonable rpd.  Best wishes to you.  Keep up the negative ranting if it helps you feel better!  ;D

http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMarch2005/broth0205.htm
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 17, 2008, 07:53:44 pm
'iya

I haven't finished my story. My speeches here are those of one who had something to say, not of one who had to say something.

I might be deadly wrong, but I came to the conclusion that pure paleo way wouldn’t work for me. Now, don't get me wrong, I don’t say it is not a perfect approach. But since things won't get going in my situation I had no choice but move further.

Day by day my frustration was continuously growing. I perceived the imminent failure. Completely out of whack, I couldn’t go on anymore. I kept telling myself this was the end, and though I knew it was, another voice kept urging me to hope for best and look on the bright side... I developed the fierce determination to possess myself of the new plan with which I could last less painfully in the coming future. I was preparing myself for retreat in the face of difficulties. And I fell back on old cures.

On Friday evening arrived two-quart jar of bee pollen and the same amount of fresh honey. And I was quick about it! I made my favourite pollen-honey candy and for the first time in the pas 6 weeks I enjoyed a sugar of any kind. My first thought was that I had gone stark raving mad.

The following day I woke up full of initiative. I was driven by the though that maybe, just maybe this “easy” honey/egg/dairy diet might alleviate my sufferings. I was determined as ever to finally put an end to the existing ugly reality. My confidence returned. At least emotionally, but I did feel enormous relief.

I have to admit that with this kind of new hope my spirits skyrocketed. Moreover, it was a moment of an extreme joy when the soccer team I support (the mighty Liverpool) had beaten our arch rivals (a certain brood from Manchester). As a result, I had a rare weekend of feeling well.

My diet was exceptionally easy. During the day I repeated the circle of eating one egg followed by a tsp of honey shortly after and a tad of cream 20-30 minutes later. Just before the bed I consumed a couple mouthfuls of meat. I wouldn’t eat meat at all, but that day I came across such delicacy as the horse meat and I couldn’t but buy a coupe of kilos…

Yesterday late in the evening I had a severe stomach upset. This was the first alarming episode on this bizarre diet. It was so painful and intense that I almost fainted. However, as it subsided, I decided to follow my way. I think it might have been something in the egg but I am not sure.

So all in all life seems pretty well at the moment. This new diet gave me a feeling of satisfaction. Was it sugar, egg or dairy I could only guess. I might even suggest it was only emotional. And despite I’m sure I will be brought down to earth again shortly, this change really astounded me...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 15, 2008, 11:42:48 pm
Cheers!

I got back here half frantic with pain, depression, sadness and sorrow. The harsh realization of severity of my condition does not give me a moment's peace.  Problems I ignored in the past now came back to haunt me. The gravity of the situation cannot be overstated. I may be jumping to conclusion but currently I feel like a person under sentence of death.

Why me? From that angle out I'm a weird, one-off person. It seems to be an exceptional case and I can’t understand it. It's tough that it had to happen to me of all people. Dr. Blake F. Donaldson in a book called Strong Medicine, says: during the millions of years that our ancestors lived by hunting, every weakling who could not maintain perfect health on fresh fat meat and water was bred out. I can’t escape my fate…

It is not due to the lack of ambition or effort on my part. I genuinely tried every possibility. How comes it? I cannot explain.

Obviously the situation is out of my hands. Everything is just so irrational. And I have to accept this. I've done my best here, but I can't work miracles.

As you can see from my previous post, about a month ago I embarked on AV’s dairy/honey/egg diet with the view to improve my indigestion. During the first week on it I was feeling really fantastic. Not that I suddenly became healthy again, but the difference was significant. This diet alleviated my indigestion suffering to a certain degree and gave me some strength and hope.

As I just said, the improvement was obvious. I didn’t eat but I didn’t fast either. And I was happy with that. I have to mention that before going to bed I also used to consume a little meat with marrow, about half an lb in total. This was the only difference from AV’s suggestion but I was loath to change anything since I felt better. As the old adage goes, let well alone…

I continued until one day when I felt so full and uncomfortable after the final meat meal (which was really small) that had no other option but to vomit in order to have a relief. I wasn’t surprised a bit that the foods came back unchanged. That pointed once again to poor digestion. I think I don’t have to tell you how miserable I felt afterwards.

I started to suspect that I couldn’t handle unsaturated fats in marrow. I decided to stay away from it as well…

As a result came a week without meats at all. However, to my surprise and embarrassment, soon I realized that even eggs became problematic. As days went by, I was eating less and less. I was only able to consume about three eggs, a little honey and a cup of kefir. After the initial high, I was in a regular pain again.

Yesterday I committed a rash act. I bought some meat. I ate about four oz before sleep and it sent me directly to hell. As a result I experienced a sleepless night and full stomach the following day. Remember I was contemplating my poor digestion and saying that I only could consume half an lb of meat? What did I know… It appears that I was in a good shape back then!

I wouldn’t have done it had I been able to go on without meats. But as I mentioned before, eggs/cream/honey diet became burdening. So I had to do something. Besides, I feel that I need meat. My body requires it but at the same time cannot handle it. Meat is important for healing and good health. I am in despair…

I don't know what's the matter with me. I am very hungry but I can’t eat. I consume nominal amounts of food but my weight remains stable. I feel so cold and wear several sweaters when others around me are hot just in tee-shirts. I’m pregnant with foods and it chronically stays in my stomach…

Well, my breathing is difficult, and there are all the symptoms of approaching dissolution. The remaining sands of my life are few and they are running out.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on October 16, 2008, 12:04:00 am
I know you're taking adrenal supplements, but I seriously think that taking raw thyroid is essential, given your above symptoms. After all, hypothyroidism has cold-intolerance(and more rarely heat-intolerance) as a major symptom. I don't think, IMHO, that it really matters if you combine both raw adrenals and raw thyroid together.

Don't worry re 100% top-quality, given the current situation, just get the best sort of glandular supplement you can afford as long as a) the dosage of the relevant glands is reasonably high, and b) it's less adulterated with chemicals than the average in the industry. I'm sure there are plenty of those examples.

I really can't think of anything else other than adrenal burnout which can cause such poor digestion of meats. If it isn't that, then you really need to see a doctor to find out if there's some problem with some other organ linked to digestion(eg:- pancreas, lack of enzyme-production etc.)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Satya on October 16, 2008, 05:49:12 am
If it isn't that, then you really need to see a doctor to find out if there's some problem with some other organ linked to digestion(eg:- pancreas, lack of enzyme-production etc.)

I agree, Yuri.  Try to see a doctor if you are able.  Maybe even an email consult.  Do take care.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on October 16, 2008, 09:30:11 am
I still think you should look for non-diet related solutions to your illness. I doubt doctors or adrenal/thyroid supplements will do anything (of course see a doctor just to make sure)  Trust me, I can tell you from personal experience that diet is only a small piece of the puzzle to being well.

Digestive problems especially. The 'Gut brain' connection is very very strong.

I'm confident you will find a solution and doubt it will be from diet. 
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: seesawsemiology on October 16, 2008, 11:38:22 am
hey man, i know i havent commented before but over the past couple of days ive read and reread your entries . so im not coming out of nowhere.
i gotta agree about the doctor thing.strongly.
diet is obviously a big part of ones health and well being but as wodgina said its not the whole thing and not 100% effective. i really respect and admire your commitment to paleo 'values' or what have you but keep in mind "cave men" also got sick and died and with what we know now,the chances are very good you dont have to. i am more suspicious of modern medicine, particularly pharmaceutical companies, than anyone i know but in some cases its the difference between life and death in our favor.
just my opinion.
i wish you all the best, hang in there.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 16, 2008, 11:28:18 pm
Spot on Geoff!

Now I have got enthusiastic about obtaining thyroid supplement. I can easily purchase the whole bovine thyroid here, but it doesn’t settle the issue. The case is, if I’m right, that too much thyroid consumed may suppress the under active thyroid even more. And I don’t want this to happen. I need to start it slowly and in adequate doses.

So far I have found only one more or less authoritative OCT source (http://www.nutri-meds.com/) of desiccated thyroid which can be shipped directly to Ukraine. There is also a lot of talk about Armour. But I’d prefer the nutri-meds, as manufacturers claim that nothing added or removed to their product...except that which is necessary to tablet or encapsulate it. They contain small amounts of magnesium stearate. The tablets have some dicalcium phosphate, the capsules have a little rice powder. The amounts are all minimal, only that needed to process.

Apparently, I cannot just give up. For the sake of happiness and joy that the life can bring, I have to be strong. I know, it is easier said than done, more so given the condition I am in right now, but there is always a ray of hope, isn’t it?

My cold intolerance, I suppose a direct result of low metabolism, is absolutely unbearable. All I wish these days is to snuggle under the covers. I hate going outside. I freeze at temperatures lower than 70 degrees. I’m terrified to death by the coming winter.

I don’t know if I’m right, but I tend to think that my diet is pretty low in saturated fats. I was just thinking that when I began intermittent fasting I started to heavily rely on bone marrow and eventually it became my only source of fats, along with fat from tongue. That means that my thyroid was suppressed not only by the infrequent eating, but also by consumption of vast amounts of MUFAs. And this may be the main reason why I failed to improve since having done with intermittent fasting. I was way too much reliant on MUFAs, which slowed down my thyroid activity even further. This is Ray Peat’s position.

Well, in an ideal situation I would have added to my adrenal cortex extract the thyroid supplementation and would have saturated my diet with coconut oil, but as of now I cannot achieve any of these goals. However, I keep on looking for possibilities.

Thank you all for the information and support, I hope I can pull through all this…
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Squall on October 17, 2008, 01:45:41 am
Dr. Blake F. Donaldson in a book called Strong Medicine, says: during the millions of years that our ancestors lived by hunting, every weakling who could not maintain perfect health on fresh fat meat and water was bred out. I can’t escape my fate…

The only advice I can offer here is to tell you not to buy into bad genetics so soon. If the statement you attributed to Dr. Donaldson is true, then you should be fine because anyone with faulty genes would have died long ago before becoming a (distant) ancestor of yours, or anyone else. There shouldn't be a person on Earth who can't digest meat and fat with a reasonably healthy digestive system.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: boxcarguy07 on October 17, 2008, 01:46:12 am
Hey there Yuri... I don't have much in the way of advice, but just know that I'm sending positive vibes your way brother. Stay strong and I know you'll get through this and whatever else life throws at you.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 20, 2008, 06:09:19 pm
Our minds have a lot of power. With our minds, we make countless decisions each by weighing innumerable factors of various importance. It amazes me, and I bet it amazes you. But despite the great minds that we have, sometimes we as people have psychological faults and we make mistakes. We see this manifest most in regret. These regretful decisions could have easily gone the other way, had the person simply used a tad more foresight.

I think I am a very original man and with an extremely original behaviour.

Although I’d preferred that last Saturday’s events didn’t live long in my memory it was a day that will be remembered for one reason in particular. You see, a couple of days ago I contemplated that my health had gone to pieces. I couldn't seem to get enough pain. So I did myself even more harm. This time it wasn’t dietary related. It resulted from my reckless negligence. Well, It took quite a bit of persuasion but I still agreed to play a soccer with my friends. And I shouldn’t. I ignored my poor state of health. It was foolishness to do it. The payoff came in due time.

Though still struggling on I was pretty nearly exhausted in the latter stages of the game. Then I fell awkwardly and dislocated my right knee. The pain was unbearable. I can’t remember a lot about the moment – but it was terrible. I thought that was the end for me. I have never suffered anything like that before but I remained conscious. I was in shock for a while but now I am coming to terms with what happened. It hurts still, but things are getting better.

As far as I am aware I might have damaged the posterior cruciate ligament in my right knee. Ligaments are strong bands of tissue that attach one bone to another. If either ligament is torn, one may experience pain, swelling and loss of mobility. Occasionally, this injury can cause a feeling of instability or looseness in the knee. That's what I have!

Well, you cannot change the past. You can learn from the past, but you still cannot change it. However, you can change the future. You control whether or not you will have more regrets later in your life.

A few words about my current diet. I run out of eggs and don’t eat them now. In the morning I start with juice squeezed from one lemon. I have a teaspoon of sour cream each hour during the day. I also consume a little honey, about half teaspoon several times per day. In the evening, before going to bed, I eat as much meat as I can, usually about 6 oz.

Finally, I have to mention that I ordered bovine thyroid from nutri-meds. I still feel this is a waste of money, especially because I can get raw thyroid for free here, but since the dosage is very important in this case I just have to live with it.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on October 20, 2008, 06:29:11 pm
I checked out the thyroid supplement also, I was thinking about buying it but changed my mind, I've spent a lot of money on supplements which do nothing. Placebo effect just does not last long enough for me damn it!

You only eat 6 oz of meat? that's not very much is it? is your digestion still shot? I would be climbing the walls with hunger!

Getting injured suck's mate. Maybe it's your subconscious telling you to take it easy for a while? I think that's what happens to me sometimes, I swear I get injured unconsciously to get out of doing things I don't want to do.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 20, 2008, 07:25:07 pm
Oh yes, this is so frustrating when you are always hungry but can’t eat. But I can’t do anything about it.

You are right about placebo effect, but as of now I can’t think of anything else. Thyroid supplements are my last chance.

As for the injury, I’m sure I wouldn’t have got it had I been fully fit. This is a direct result of tiredness and poor health condition. However, I have to admit that would calm me down for a while, at least until my leg functioning recovers.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 22, 2008, 04:52:49 pm
Now I don’t eat today. I wonder why my digestion got so much worse over the past four weeks…Maybe, I really have that damn candida issue? This is the only fitting explanation… Certainly, with honey and dairy it had the opportunity to grow hog wild. This might have aggravated the situation. I have to admit that, maybe at least for me, but AV’s ideas on how to restore indigestion failed miserably.

What is to be done? I can hardly be expected to decide when doctors disagree…
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 23, 2008, 07:46:55 pm
Fresh news with juicy bits!

Yesterday I conducted yet another experiment with myself. Some observations were made on the effects of honey. I obtained interesting and controversial results.

So as you know, in order to get rid of a possible candida overgrowth I diligently followed the strictest dietary rules since beginning of August. In mid September (after 6 weeks which were truly painful and unbearable) I gave up and added sugar (honey) back to my diet. I experienced an instant relief.

The candida proponents would argue that I simply crumpled up under the strain of so called die-off, which is common when you are trying to combat the fungus. However, when you're under as much strain as that, something is bound to give.

For about a month or so I tried to enhance my digestion by following ideas of Mr. Vonderplanitz. It turned out that his general suggestions to treat this condition didn’t help me a bit. So I decided to put aside sugars (honey) and dairy and see how I reacted to it. The results came immediately.

By the noon of my first day without honey I already felt myself much worse. The whole day I was like a cat on hot bricks. By the evening I experienced a severe weakness of every muscle in my body. Lethargy and immobility set in. My legs gave way too. I could hardly walk. I didn’t feel my feet. The back pain in the kidney area made itself felt again. Worse was to come the following day. I ended in a complete fiasco.

What answer can I draw from the proofs that are offered? Am I diabetic? Do I have hypoglycemia? Maybe candida has me on a string? Certainly, I will hit the bottom very quickly without honey. But if I eat it, will it feed my probable candida?

But wait, who said that candida thrives on honey? There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Just have a look here http://www.scielo.br/pdf/bjm/v39n1/a10v39n1.pdf and here http://tinyurl.com/aybmh
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on October 23, 2008, 08:15:44 pm
What colour is your tongue after not eating carbs for a couple of days?

Most people have candida.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Kristelle on October 23, 2008, 08:47:37 pm
Yuri,

Have you tried garlic? Does the thought of having some make your mouth watery? Do you crave it?

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 23, 2008, 09:30:12 pm
I didn't notice any change in colour of my tongue. What I noticed was extreme weakness and shakiness wihtout honey.

Yetserday I bought some garlic again. I don't mind eating it though. I wouldn't say that I miss it. However, it helps to aleviate my wild hunger.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on October 23, 2008, 09:54:36 pm
Have you considered the pemmican+liver+water diet?

Might be dangerous for you because of the three weeks of lethargy, and your extreme reaction to lack of sweet, but the problem seems to stem from carbohydrate addiction.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 23, 2008, 10:01:11 pm
Well, I tried ZERO CARB in Jan 2008. It was all meat 80%+ fat diet. I ate about 3 oz liver daily. Also, I consumed egg yolks. By end of March I developed uric acid kidney stones.

I wouldn't mind lethargy if only it could help. But I think I need carbs. Zero carb diet is not good for somebody with hormonal imbalances, i.e. exhausted adrenals or/and weak thyroid.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on October 23, 2008, 10:46:26 pm
More and more I wonder if either zero- or low-carb diets truly require 80% fat. Perhaps 50-60% by calories is more like it.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on October 23, 2008, 11:14:44 pm
More and more I wonder if either zero- or low-carb diets truly require 80% fat. Perhaps 50-60% by calories is more like it.

Me too.
I find myself after eating the pemmican making a dessert of an equal amount of jerky (stomach tells me to do this).
I wonder if the 80% fat applies to athletes and others engaged in high energy type physical activities, while those who like me are sedentary and need extensive healing really need a greater percentage of jerky.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 23, 2008, 11:22:56 pm
Geoff, you seem to have a habit of guessing in advance.

The lower fat diet is just what I was thinking about recently. And I’m forced to do it right now as I don’t want to consume dairy. Just a little honey, some meat and several lemons juiced. My current fat intake dropped to about 50%. My daily calories are pretty low, usually below 1000, but due to indigestion I cannot eat more. So whether I like it or not, this is how things go at present.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Kristelle on October 24, 2008, 10:38:21 am
I'm not so sure about the fat percentage. I also thought that less was better but since my digestion and overall health has improved, I do well on higher fat like probably around 70-80%. That's why i asked about garlic...since taking some and dropping my hormones, things have really improved!

Best of luck, Yuri. My heart goes out to you...kinda been there. :)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 24, 2008, 03:29:52 pm
Kristelle, thanks for the support!

I wanted to ask you several questions if you don't mind...

To start with, what hormones you dropped?

You said that this situation was familiar to you... Was is as bad as mine? Did you struggle to eat more than a handful of food?

Apart from garlic, were there any other changes that helped you to feel better? Did you take any probiotics, aka EM etc.? Did you eat any sugars, i.e. honey, fruit?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Kristelle on October 24, 2008, 09:00:23 pm
I stopped taking estrogen and progesterone. I was taking hormones because I no longer have ovaries.

Then, I ate a few cloves of garlic one night (last week) and this really made a difference. I was really craving garlic that day.

I would react negatively to most every food and would actually feel better, more energetic when fasting. The tide is turning now! :)

I have been zero-carb for almost 3 months, off hormones for 1 month and a half.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 24, 2008, 09:19:51 pm
I am glad for you. And garlic is well know folk medicine against indigestion. Carry on!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 24, 2008, 09:59:18 pm
Yesterday I was utterly puzzled and bewildered. My brief fast caused massive muscles weakness and other unpleasant symptoms. Everything was corrected within two or three hours after I ate about a teaspoon of honey.

Today I had about 5 oz of meat for my breakfast and two cloves of garlic. But without honey I felt terrible again.

And I can’t get out of my head this candida thought. Could these two tbsp of raw honey be that bad? How it comes that such small amount of sugar can cause candida problems for me, while others do eat much more offensive foods on a regular basis without noticeable problems?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on October 25, 2008, 12:49:18 am
Such a response to fasting is so unusual that it's beyond me, and I guess anyone's experience here.

There may be an answer though; I suggest asking Dr. Bernarr at http://www.healself.org/ ; he has the most experience and if willing to read your posts should be the wisest counsellor.
He eats raw.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Raw Kyle on October 27, 2008, 08:52:16 am
It could be that the small amount of honey you're consuming is keeping the candida alive and when you cut it out they start to die. The symptoms from candida are from the die off (or so I've heard) so usually that's when the worst will come of it, when you begin to starve them. I'm not sure how longs it takes to kill them all but I assume you could test it out by seeing if the symptoms get better on zero carb or worse.

Or a less harsh experiment would be to strictly maintain a certain carb intake (measure your honey every time you consume it) and then slowly cut back on it over time. Perhaps then you can go without it for a while and not have symptoms of candida die off because they will have lowered their population over time along with the lowering of available carbs.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ezekiel on October 28, 2008, 12:35:52 am
More and more I wonder if either zero- or low-carb diets truly require 80% fat. Perhaps 50-60% by calories is more like it.
Should this vary depending on how active you are? More active, more fat? Or perhaps it just depends on the person and what climate they live in?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on October 28, 2008, 12:54:19 am
Perhaps a higher-fat diet is needed for a colder climate, but I reckon I do better, exercise-wise , on lower amounts of fat.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 28, 2008, 05:02:03 pm
I just popped back to share some recent observations.

Remember a couple of days ago I referred to the article which claimed that honey had strong anticandida properties? Well, now I have got every reason to deny it. I came to this conclusion by chance. You know that honey can be safely stored at room temperature and won’t spoil for ages. Last week I finished the jar with honey. I didn’t have either time or desire to wash it properly so I just rinsed it a bit. Obviously a tiny amount of sweetened water remained in the jar. It stayed at the kitchen for several days. When I finally decided to put it in a cupboard I noticed grayish mold all over inside the jar. Apparently that is what might be happening to ingested honey.

No more honey for me. I try to eat three small meat meals per day. About three oz each.  I hope I will be able to increase this amount. I want to try digestive enzymes. Otherwise I cannot se how that can be achieved. I keep fat at about 60%. Also I squeeze four lemons daily. Other fruits may not be a good idea if I have candida. I am not too sure I can go zero carb again.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on October 28, 2008, 08:35:16 pm
I just popped back to share some recent observations.

Remember a couple of days ago I referred to the article which claimed that honey had strong anticandida properties? Well, now I have got every reason to deny it. I came to this conclusion by chance. You know that honey can be safely stored at room temperature and won’t spoil for ages. Last week I finished the jar with honey. I didn’t have either time or desire to wash it properly so I just rinsed it a bit. Obviously a tiny amount of sweetened water remained in the jar. It stayed at the kitchen for several days. When I finally decided to put it in a cupboard I noticed grayish mold all over inside the jar. Apparently that is what might be happening to ingested honey.


yeaah that sounded like rubbish to me.

You need to check your tongue, If you have candida your tongue will be white. If its not you don't have it.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 31, 2008, 11:00:39 pm
Hello friends

Now it’s been three month since I started adrenal cortex extract. I have to say it made no difference. I know that treating this problem is a lengthy and patient procedure but… I expected Isocort would improve the situation, at least a little. In reality everything got much worse over this period. My digestion just stopped. My bowels will not move as I am constantly constipated. My body temperature is extremely low and cold intolerance as sever as never before. I am cold, and all in a shiver. The thyroid extract has just arrived but I don’t know what to do with adrenal support. Are there any reasons to continue? Should I show more patience?

Without honey and carbs a sharp pain in my lower back (in kidneys area) is now starting to return. This was the case when I tried anti-candida diet before and haunts me again. I am not sure that my body has enough resources left to cope with it. I just pray for miracle.

My weight melts day by day. I have lost around 11 pounds. Interestingly but all my trousers still fit well. I’m relatively fat round the middle and in waist. It is very strange that Isocort has no effect as all my symptoms are indicative of exhausted adrenals. I'm out of ideas. Everything seems very illogical and unreasonable.

If you don’t mind, I’d like to share some excerpts from my diary.

May 1-st, 2007:
Before I started raw meats "therapy" I suffered from constant tiredness and weakness as a result of veganism and malnutrition. Thus fats, proteins and other nutrients have done its part and with so desirable lbs of weight gain I also get rid of the above conditions and started to regain previous vigour, strength and alertness. Both in terms of weight and general well-being my health have significantly improved and I got noticeably better and healthier appearance. Also some inner changes may as well have occurred. As high-fruit-no-fat vegan diet may have impaired some of the organs (suppose, liver, kidney and pancreas) plenty of raw fats I consumed over this three months definitely helped a lot!

May 16, 2007:
When I started Primal Diet my weight was around 115 lb and after 10 weeks I reached 155 pounds (I feel my current weight is c. 185 lb)!
I think when I reach 4-th month on this diet I'll try weight-loss plan. I believe some time is needed for the excess fat to be replaced by pure muscles, I have only to be patient. Anyway, a little belly is by far healthier that that vegan skinnyness! After exhausting period of vegan starvation it's well strange to feel full up and totally satisfied. But it's so natural!

May 29, 2007:
First of all, I must admit that I'm tired from constant eating... Just a mere 6 weeks ago I was thinking how lucky I was to follow AV ideas... Yes, I still do appreciate his views, but his position on frequent eating seems to be so hard to carry out. I do feel that two meat meals plus fruit and milshakes are too much for me at the moment. I wouldn't say that I stopped to improve in terms of health. No, Just the opposite! I feel fantastic, except for excessive thirst. But this continuous condition of being always full really killing me. Maybe this heat outside is the reason... I don't know, but the only thing that is clear to me that I must listen to my body.
Raw meats allowed me to forget about those vegan hunger-pangs, but I intend to go well ahead and throw all the food issues completely out of my head. I just want to feel free in terms of eating and be never bothered about carrying any jars or thinking about when to eat.
I hope I have enough will to make my wishes come true.

June 6, 2007 (started intermittent fasting, stopped dairy, honey, only fruit, meat and fat):
As I've already mentioned I was planning to start weght-loss plan.
Last Monday was my first day in four months on the Primal Diet when I was able to not overload myself with raw food. I worked out for myself convenient regimen to effectively lose excess weight. I usually start eating at 6 p.m. and four hours onwards and consume moderate amounts of raw beef with practically no fat at all. Before I go to bed I may drink a cup of raw milk or self-made kefir... Today is just Friday and I do feel the results already... But, since I'm working actively from 7 a.m. I may sometimes feel myself light-headed or dizzy. This type of schedule is a transition or adjustment for me before i start one meal daily plan. Hope once and forever!

June 16, 2007:
Those four months of constant eating had a huge disadvantage - I ate because I thought I needed it. I believed I had no energy to change smth. Maybe it was true. Plus other raw fooders said AV's Primal Diet was a good thing to start. Switching to single meal daily was more of a mental challenge. More so because for the moment I eat in moderations, to lose excess fat. But merely fortnight on this plan convinced me to stick to this habit forever! It is easy, convenient and so natural! I started loosing extra fat for fun, my energy levels significantly increased, I realised what hunger and appetite means.
It's great, fantastic! I may sometimes feel myself light-headed or dizzy.

July 6, 2007:
Thanks to Geoff, I eliminated dairy and veg-juices from my diet.
Instead I incorporated organ meats which consist approximately 2/3 of my diet. I eat one meal daily within 2 to three hours period. I don't mix my foods and wait for 30 min. or so to consume another item, with the fat plus meats being the only exception. Every now and then I consume high-meats and about a cup of fruit daily. So, as for the flesh, I usually have a pound or so of a variety of meats (cows' brains, marrow and muscle or lambs' tongues, liver, kidney or hearts).
My fat supply basically comes from marrow, I think I average a cup or so daily(half a pound). I can purchase lambs' tallow or pork's fat, but since I'm happy with what I currently have, I don't bother about anything else. Brains and tongues with it's high fat content also add to this. I don't know my ratios in terms of percentages , calories or amounts. I eat until I'm fool, content and not hungry. But fasting 20-22 hours daily and occasional food-free days take some time to get used to though.
Constipation? I have regular bowel movements (usually once a day in the morn after the sleep). The only side-effect I've noticed is probably a bit painful going out of some undigested parts of berries (kernels).
Judging from my size and overall appearance, I ceased to loose weight. Instead I'm able to remain pretty in the same range, in the region of 160 lb. I want to figure out at long last my normal wardrobe
size and finally go shopping, since all my dietary adventures stripped me off significantly and I almost have no alternatives in terms of clothes.

July 16, 2007:
Back to my dietary experiences. Among the side-effects of IF on me I should mention the dizziness and fatigue while doing IF... Well, as long as I can resist them I don't want to back off and include extra supporting meal. Along with the IF regimen, there also might be some other factors. To name a few, I'd suggest overeating. Yes, it sounds strange, but let me explain the situation. On the PD I heavily added in weight (desirable one). Since I don't care anymore about my fat/weight condition, I thought I would loose some excess lbs as a result of IF.
When I first ate little meat and fat I had no problems re energy levels. But I happened to think that I needed more food to keep myself well-nourished and started to eat until I was full. And more towards evening I feel as I have increased energy. The same holds true for the food-free or fast days. So, maybe less food is what I have to try next.
Moreover, as a result of mentioned period of moderate eating, I have lost c. 20 lbs. Now, I feel my weight remain more or less stable, but I'm far from lean. So, here comes idea of cutting down on overall food intake. I don't know, I'll see how it goes.
Another reason is that I may be getting not enough sleep. I tend to work up to 12 hours daily, plus exercising, going to office and returning home, other activity. The time left for sleep never exceeds 7 hours. Plus, there is always some hindrances to peaceful sleep. I've notived that short naps around the midday makes wonder for me and return me to life. Unfortunately, I cannot often sleep at work :)
Provided I have the opportunity to catch up on mine sleep maybe then I'll have the answer.
This time I don't eat root vegetables! The only thing from plant kingdom I consume is black currants. I also think that some vegetable matter is important, including leafy vegetables. But for the most of the year I don't have access to quality vegg stuff, so I tend to eat what I can get easily all the time. Come late fall or winter and I gonna try animal foods only. I have a wary look on the commercial imported vegetables.

July 23, 2007:
All I know that most problems are a result of bad nutrition. So, to remove the initial cause is the start for me. As I strongly believe in the healing abilities of raw animal foods I hope they can make everything for myself. Plus, I rate very highly exercises, contrast showers, sleep, IF and general self-confidence and peace of mind. Hope when time comes I will suddenly feel that I am in a complete harmony with nature, in a stance of balance! Who knows, maybe during my quest for optimal health some other beneficial things will pop up. For the moment I just have to be patient and bide my time.
The only thing I know for certain that I still have to experiment with quantities of food I eat and the amounts of carbs/proteins and fats. Despite I don't eat large amounts of meats daily (max an lb or less) I feel I have to cut off my overall consumption. I'm loath to do so because I don't want to loose much weight, I hate myself when I look skinny and lean. Meanwhile I have a little belly as a result of PD and some excess fat. That means that I have some room for manoeuvre. My next task is eat less.
As for the carbs ratio, I eat very little of them. Maybe when I slightly increase the consumption of them I would do better it terms of awareness and energy levels. For the moment I gonna continues this low carb approach, but some changes may be made as well. I'm planning to add some honey to my diet in several months time or so, we will see.

July 30 (HAPPY BIRTHDAY), 2007:
My IF practice hasn't changed. Once or twice a week I usually take a full rest day from foods just drinking water. On my eating days I consume late in the evening up to one pound of a kind of meats (either tongue, heart, kidney or others) with half a pound of fat (mostly beef marrow but sometimes a bit of suet). I finish my daily meal with a two cups of black currants (since they are out of season they tend to be mold, I still have some in store for the coming week or so).
 I tend to think that I'm eating too much. My weight condition for the past month remained stable, the same 155 lbs. And this inspite of several fast days and everyday IF. When I have my evening meal I'm afraid of possible hunger pangs the following day so I choose to stuff myself with foods... I doubt this is a good idea.
But at the same moment I'm loath to loose my weight as well. I was underweight and don't want to have those problems once again. Still I have a slight excess fat, especially on my belly. I'm not trim as I was in my pre-vegan days. I don't look that fit these days. I'm not sure I should worry about this...
On fasting days I happen to feel some elevated energy or quite the contrary (a kind of tiredness). Anyway, I try to fast when I have some other tasks to do, i.e. to go out with friends, go to the cinema,
travel somewhere. This random activity helps me and distracts from thinking about foods. As an alternative I may just come home, lay in my bed and have a rest or longer than usual sleep. It's a bit
challenging but I seem to getting used to it.

August 6, 2007:
Yesterday I was in the bed in the morn and accidentally decided to check my pulse rate? It appeared to be less than 60 beats per minute.
In the rawpaleogroup I found post re fatigue, according to which "if one feels tired all the time, then that's a bad sign..." I agree that smth may be well wrong. But, what if one's body is paving it's way to recovery, just replacing old cells, cleansing and performing general health recreation? Or getting used to smth new, i.e. raw nutrients, IF regimen... I'd like to clarify this situation for myself.

August 13, 2007:
Despite overall favourable improvements I still have to strike a kind of balance. I'd like to get rid of small amount of belly fat (probably dut to dairy consumption). I need to figure out my true weight and the amount of raw food I need to maintain it. Plus, it would be so desirable to overcome the problems
relating to fatigue and drops of energy.
And, who knows, my organs need more time to recover and optimaly function. On top of that, dark undereye circles (less visible than before) still present, so I hope with the lapse of time they completely disappear.

Scare food issue. Yesterday I got out of a fridge a jar with black currants... An old one... Those berries were actually a bit white though... Having liquid consistence and harsh flavour/odour. I'm still alive! I've noticed no side effects and presume its safe to eat aged/mold fruits.
As for the eating/fasting routine. It seems that one daily meal (mostly very short one, c. an hour or so) is a tolerable regimen. But due to work, meetings with friends or travels I from time to time fast for the whole non-consecutive days. This is a bit harder to tolerate but achievable though. I average from two to four such days in a fortnight (depends on a situation).
This is rather debatable for how long should one intermittently fast. Most common and adopted figure is 24 hours. So, this is the regimen I got used to lately. For instance, I ate one meal yesterday within one hour starting at 19-30 or so. Today, when back home, I'm gonna eat similar meal from 9 till 10 p.m. And tomorrow, from 10 p.m. onwards.
Since it won't be possible to catch up this schedule the day after tomorrow (I would gave to eat from 12 p.m. or so) I'll have the fast-day. Technically all my meals are separated with at least 24-hour period, so this is in line with the existing studies. Moreover, a bit of variety in terms of meal timing is present as well. But this practice is relatively new to me and only available when I care to adhere to it. Otherwise I eat when I have the possibility (always in evening or late in night). I just keep in mind some basic rules, i.e. at least 20 hours meals spacing, never eating lean meats on its own or smth like that.
No matter how hard I try, I simply cannot eat more than an lb of meat/organ meat with half of lb of fat(mostly marrow). When I do stuff myself with the food, forcing to eat more than my stomach would have liked, I don't feel comfortable et al and this hinders my peace slip and clearity of mind. Besides, this seems to expand my paunch and isn't much pleasant. That's why mine overall daily food intake (bearing in mind occasional day-fasting) is comparatively low. This is a kind of concern for me, since even on eating days I can hardly cross the 2000 calories line. However, I can't but agree with Geoff that "perhaps, being mostly-raw for quite a while the body somehow gradually becomes more efficient at getting nutrients from food, and so needs less in the long run." Anyway, there are still some options left (eating more) in case of emergency (huge/rapid weight loss) to modify my position.
In the meantime my body-weight remains more or less stable (after loosing the excess weigh resulting from previous Primal Diet gluttony) and I intend to continue this trend and see what happens
next. In addition my muscle bulk seem to remain the same in shape and amount with the fat gradually coming off. I hope this random eating in moderation is capable of providing me with the healthiest and most athletic body composition. I flatter myself that this is the very way the things should be.

August 22, 2007:
When I was on a Primal Diet I was convinced I was doing some things wrong but since it was my way back from the vegan hell I opted to accept it at a face value and refused to change a thing... At least for the prescribed four month period. You may remember my progress in terms of weight gain and physical performance. I was happy and calm that at long last I was able to regain a human shape. I had to sacrifice my lean appearance together with the abs but it was kinda judicious selection. At the end of the fourth month I had to force myself to eat so that to stay in line with the recommended schedule.
Still I was too weak to go another level.
Finally, in the beginning of June I decided that I had enough. I said farewell to dairy and constant eating. I stepped up the gear. Interestingly but the Primal Diet is not that low in carbs et al. It just an erroneous delusion. So my next idea was to take the food burden down and became the freeman. IF helped a lot. But I had  fears and hopes both at once. I was into smth new, very controversial and unproven.
10 weeks into this routine. I have mixed results. Together with achievements I found some difficulties. Yet I have to managed to discover the cause of the struggles. Am I something impatient? I think I yes, I have to wait and see. Anyway, at least some other options remain. I may eat for longer periods (lasting up for 4 hours), to reduce the amount of fast-days or abandon them for some time (I currently fast every third or fourth day - or four in a fortnight), limit activity levels (I'm not too keen or sure re this), try to reach the minimum calorie level (by stuffing myself during my meals), increase carb intake (since starting IF I never exceeded 40-50 grams daily), to drastically decrease my fat intake and up the proteins ratio (my current diet is too high-fat, at least 70%) or adopt similar changes. But for the moment I opt to hold back.
My weigh still is not far below the average and I have a bit of time and space to experiment more. I just hope I can reach the point when the weigh-drop stops and normalized condition settles. For the past three weeks I've lost c. 3 lbs and now am at the 151 lbs mark. Some little body fat (belly region) is present and my old trousers are too tight but I inexplicably inclined to panic...
Yes I have less energy but more strength than before. Maybe I'm heading the right path. What if my body, at long last provided with the opportunity to heal and not continuously digest food, is on the way to recovery? I feel I ought to give it time to turn round, a chance for a kind of R and R. Everything is good, everything is rosy... Why should I worry? Rome was not built in a day... But this would try the patience of Job. That remains to be seen, time will show...

September 4, 2007:
That day I was able to check my weight and much to my regret and astonishment I found that I was loosing weight. It dropped to the point of 145 ibs (I'm 5.7) and I became anxious and uneasy. Maybe I
should limit those fast-days to no more than a couple every fortnight…
I must think it over, I mean the frequency of fast-days. Maybe I really go too far with them. Thus on the weekend I decided to eat more to put on weight or at least remain at the current level. Maybe this
can solve the fatigue problem as well, who knows.
Yet I continue to experiment with rawpaleo diet. I try to figure out the best ratios/amounts for me. Most notable recent alterations were to eat more meat and to slightly reduce the fat intake. It seems that my obsession with fats is not the best idea though. Bone marrow and brains are tasty but it shouldn't go the limit as well.
It seems that eating a tad more than I used to makes me emotionally balanced. Moreover I am able to maintain my weight in spite of frequent fast-days. However I still lack buoyancy… Most of the time I
have to force myself to exercise. But this weekend in the countryside was well arduous and loads of energy were spent.

September 19, 2007:
Deep down I question the wisdom of it all, I mean the diet and so on.
I had a near perfect health just a couple of years ago and now I can't find the way. At the start of the Primal Diet I was oozing with confidence. I really believed in success and saw a bright future. And now again I am faced with the dilemma. I don't mind this kind of fighting. But honestly I'm afraid how many days will my health deposits last, wouldn't I burn myself out...
The question is more complicated than is supposed. Every why has a wherefore. But I don't know what contributes to my downfall. I no longer know what to think. I do feel completely dwarfed by it as all my experiments are a mere supposition. I haven't much faith in this anymore. I incline to believe that I have a hope but without dead certainty. There is no alternative but to keep on trying.
In general it all comes to the same thing - a kind of deficiency.
Let's decide on every last detail. To effectively perform the body needs fuel and when it lacks in something than it meets failures. So I may presume that primarily I'm coming short of something. As I refrain from all sorts of bad habits and doing rather beneficial things like exercises and lead an overall healthy life nothing remains for me but question the diet I follow.
So the whole question reduces itself to the question whether I'm getting enough or not. After having carefully analysed the situation I have reached the conclusion that the overacidity of the body may be
the cause. And that things should have come to this pass! I mean living off of practically all meat diet. But let's beat the matter out and  have another go at this problem. What do we need are the minerals
and vitamins. Even muscle meats alone on a paper are capable of covering all the needs with the exception of some nutrients. Together with fats we have practically complete diet. It only remains to find a proper source of calcium and magnesium. Nuts will do that, say twice a week. To add some base for the balance and we have worked out the optimal human diet and mind that it is all raw. And it's hard for me to understand where am I wrong and hence I'm driven from pillar to post. I feel uncertain what to do next. Wait? But for how long? Just to whistle for a wind? Or to let the grass grow under my feet? Would I stiil be able to recoup my losses after that?
 I have no choice but to hope against hope.

Well, that is it. I can continue up to this day, but there is no reason. Since all this time I have been trying to find the answers. If you were patient enough to read all this stuff through what would you suggest? Any ideas? Has the picture became clearer? Was my problems caused by intermittent fasting initially? Or had I harvested candida (remember all that moldy berries)? Or I suddenly got parasites when switched to one meal daily schedule?

I would be enormously grateful for any suggestions and opinions!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on November 01, 2008, 02:03:39 am
Well, given that intolerance to cold is a classic symptom of hypothyroidism, it's best to use the  thyroid capsules you've received. Failing that, all I can suggest is a visit to a doctor.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on November 01, 2008, 06:18:29 am


Sometimes you need 'someone from the outside looking in' to see whats wrong.

You've completely stressed yourself out...!!!

which can give your physical/mental sensations such as

-obsessions
-anxiety
-feeling cold
-pains anywhere
-tingly
-heart palpitations
-unable to digest food
-fatigue
-stuffs up your blood sugar so you can gain weight
-stress can cause weight loss
-constipation
-feeling light headed/dizzy



Well, that is it. I can continue up to this day, but there is no reason. Since all this time I have been trying to find the answers. If you were patient enough to read all this stuff through what would you suggest? Any ideas? Has the picture became clearer? Was my problems caused by intermittent fasting initially? Or had I harvested candida (remember all that moldy berries)? Or I suddenly got parasites when switched to one meal daily schedule?

I would be enormously grateful for any suggestions and opinions!


==>I only just managed to read it! ==>Stop all diet related research/thinking/measuring/recording/planning==>The picture seams very clear to me==>I doubt IF did anything==>You don't have candida==>You don't have parasites==>As above


Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: coconinoz on November 01, 2008, 12:04:30 pm


if this were my journal i'd write a note to myself as follows:

~ i've made up my mind 1ce & for all: i shall never, ever again try to commit suicide by water fasting
~ i value & nurture my life
~ i've crossed a major threshold, never to look back
~ gradually i'm coming to understand the depth & breath of my signature: the animal (incl. human) body gets what it needs from real food; not from bad taste jokes sold in capsules
~ there is no room in my present life for even the tiniest piece of fruit, berry, bee product, veggie, or potato; of course, people are free to write their books or online articles, to label themselves gurus or experts, to set up their shops & markets: that's their prerogative & so i leave them alone
~ i give myself permission to enjoy the freedom to live my own life & capitalize on my large pool of experiences & realizations

ahh... the good life!

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 03, 2008, 07:36:20 pm
With all due respect but I can’t agree that my problem is just mental. There must be a reason, a logical explanation, something that might have triggered my downfall. You see, when I started Primal Diet back in February 2007 I was in pretty poor state of health. Over four month I improved tremendously. In June 2006 I tried intermittent fasting and since the very first day I felt strange. Just look at my notes carefully. I repeat, from the day one! I thought I needed time to adapt. I was sure that in the case of emergency I could always go back to the plan A, i.e. Primal Diet, which showed to be successful in the past. But when it finally came to the crunch, to my great chagrin, the trick did not work.

Maybe I am not accurate enough in my expressions and you can’t grasp the whole gravity of the situation. It is not a game. Let’s face it. It is a matter of life and death for me. I am realistic about it. I cry out for help as failures mount. There is no room for mistake.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Raw Kyle on November 11, 2008, 12:35:25 am
Perhaps you could try continuing with the diet you are eating but cut out the fasting days, maybe even eating two meals a day every day or some days. I've tried eating one meal a day before and didn't feel like I was eating enough. I didn't have much experience with raw paleo and didn't have a taste for a lot of the food so perhaps later when I have sincere cravings for raw paleo fare I could do it. Now I usually eat two meals a day, which compared to most people is still IF as I don't snack in between meals.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Nicola on November 11, 2008, 05:40:10 am
"The evidence all suggests that the way to avoid kidney and gall bladder diseases is to eat a diet composed mainly of animal protein and fat."

http://www.webmd.com/kidney-stones/kidne...e-analysis
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/kidney.html

Nicola
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 11, 2008, 10:40:51 pm
Lost in thought and lost in time
While the seeds of life and the seeds of change were planted
Outside the rain fell dark and slow
While I pondered on this dangerous but irresistible pastime
I took a heavenly ride through our silence
I knew the moment had arrived
For killing the past and coming back to life

What do I have to do now?
 
1. Stop looking for a treatment

2. Stop listening to my obsessive and intrusive thoughts

3. Go to bed early at night

4. Do not go to the doctor, do not take medication, do not read books that are related to my disorder and do not collect information about my problems

very simple!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: lex_rooker on November 13, 2008, 07:42:35 am
With all due respect but I can’t agree that my problem is just mental.

I think that we often forget that our minds have tremendous power over our bodies.  What we think, very often expresses itself in both our behaviour and our physical health and well being. 

I've made myself sick on occasion and I assure you that even though there was no organic basis for my illness, I was quite physically ill - complete with skin rashes, diarrhea, and vomiting.  I've never done this on purpose, but I've had it happen spontaneously when under very high mental stress.

I wouldn't discount the mental aspect to quickly.  Not only is it a viable explanation for what you are experiencing, it is also very difficult to overcome because it goes to the very core of our being.

Lex
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on November 13, 2008, 03:26:25 pm
Yeah, stress/buried emotion tend to effect my body as much as drinking coke and eating Macca's

Especially when I get caught up with being successful...building wealth and all that supposedly unimportant stuff!

and.. Number 5. Do your housework and ask for nothing in return
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: DameonWolf on November 27, 2008, 11:24:05 am
My Theory: I could see intermittent fasting triggering a lot of bad stuff. When you fast, you essentially tell your body to begin massive clean up. When you interrupt that clean up, BANG, your channels that we're starting to move out crap got clogged. One way trip to disaster. Can take a while to recover.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on December 01, 2008, 11:06:00 pm
hello friends

I'll give you a rundown on my latest developments.

Exactly one month ago the Whole Desiccated Bovine Thyroid Concentrate Capsules from Nutri-Meds™ arrived. At that time I was driven into a corner by my health problems. Frankly speaking I didn’t pin much faith on them. I was skeptical about their effect mainly because I tried eating raw thyroid and failed to notice any difference. However, just one week after starting on rather low dose, I experienced some positive changes. First and foremost, my long lasting constipation subsided. My bowels became regular and moved with ease. I was able to slightly increase my food intake as a result. I still couldn’t eat enough. However, there definitely were some positive signs. The presented evidence filled me with enthusiasm.

I believed that that was only the beginning and with increasing the dose there will be more improvement. I thought that eventually my digestion will get optimized and will work at its full capacity. But most of all I hoped I would be able to raise my body temperatures.

Last weekend I went to a sauna. I was subjected to hot steam around 80-100 Celsius and still failed to sweat at leas a bit. Whereas excessive sweating is one of the symptoms of hyperthyroidism I may conclude.

I also noticed that when I take thyroid supplements and stay at home all day long I am able to maintain my body temperature at around 98 (36.7) F. However, when I go outside, the temperature inevitably drops to 97 (36.1) or even less.

Now it has been one month since starting thyroid supplement. The problem is that despite considerably increasing the dose there were no further improvements. My whole progress is limited to that initial boost. Most of the time I have low body temperature and tremble like an aspen leaf. Here and there I experience the “previous” heaviness in the gut despite I am very careful to not overeat (3-4 oz of food at a time is my current hard rule). But considering the changes I experienced at the beginning I might assume I have to pursue with thyroid as it seems to be the right direction.

In the first place I need to find out and adjust my optimal dose. The complete elimination of symptoms and a mid-afternoon temp of 98.6 are indicative criteria for the correct amount.

For the thyroid supplement which I have got the recommended use is “one capsule daily or as otherwise directed by physician or qualified health care practitioner”. Somewhere in the internet there were suggestions about two capsules daily at most. However, when talking about standardized prescription desiccated thyroid Armour, it appears that most end up needing 3-5 grains at the minimum when finding optimal dose. Armour prescription letter states that maintenance dosage is 1-2 grains. One grain of Armour is allegedly equal to four capsules of Nutri-Meds… This is the first dilemma, i.e. how much to take…

The second one is adrenals related. “Those who are already on thyroid medication and experience strange symptoms when raising the dose, say it can be due to sluggish, low-functioning adrenals, which means low cortisol production. And since cortisol is needed to help the receptors on cells receive thyroid hormones from the blood, patients with sluggish adrenals and on thyroid medication can start having strange reactions to the thyroid medication as they raise. They can also find themselves with a high free T3 and continuing hypo symptoms, since thyroid hormones will build in the blood serum without adequate cortisol.” < http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/things-we-have-learned/ > With that said it is obvious that too much thyroid or raising too fast may put additional stress on the adrenals and subsequently worsen the situation.

Finally, it is important to know how fast to raise. More experienced patients reported that when they fail to raise from a starting dose within two weeks or less, their hypo starts to return with a vengeance due to the hypothalamus/pituitary/thyroid feedback loop. So it is bad to either raise too fast (too much strain on adrenals) or too slow (feedback loop).

Certainly there is plenty of food for thought…
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Nicola on December 02, 2008, 12:52:02 am
Yuri, Lynnhopes has quite a bit of "ideas" on your topic:

http://zerocarbage.com/showthread.php?tid=401

You could post and ask...

Nicola
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on December 04, 2008, 09:24:28 am
A book I recommend that summarizes most of the things I know is Food is your best medicine by Henry Bieler MD. http://www.amazon.com/Food-Your-Medicine-Henry-Bieler/dp/0345351835

Instead of running through my whole website Cure Manual, just read that 1 book and you will be given a better insight into how to solve your current health issues.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on December 04, 2008, 05:47:13 pm
sounds like a placebo effect especiall as you tried raw thyroid in the past and it did nothing. I find it hard to believe your current regime will do any more than deplete your bank account.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on December 06, 2008, 12:20:35 am
Okay, let’s put all the symptoms, possible illnesses and unsubstantial complains aside. In my case there is only one undeniable evidence so far and that is uric acid kidney stones. I’d like to go into details here.

At the time the stones formed and created ureteral obstruction I was already eating rawpaleo diet for one year. Actually the stones incident put en end to my two months plus long zero carb trial. Back then I was searching how to deal with my possible hypothyroid and consumed raw bovine thyroid daily in the amount of 4-5 oz.

I can only speculate what could have led to the stones formation, however, there seem to be two contributing causes at most:
   1. excessive purine intake
   2. ketogenic diet
My diet prior to the accident was definitely very high in purines. Apart from usual pound of muscle/organ meat and some suet/marrow I was also consuming thyroid and liver which both yielded around 1500 and 500 mg of purines daily respectively. I was getting roughly  However, it should be noted that the overall contribution of foods high in uric acid is debatable – figures of between 5% and 15% are common.

Kidney stones is probably the most cited side-effect of the Ketogenic Diet. I fall inside it pretty well. Also I wanted to refer to this discussion: http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p75.htm According to Aajonus:

“Ninety percent of what Kaplan says is true for cooked food diets, including the Atkins diet. No one has developed kidney stones on my Primal Diet because uric acids do not excessively form nor collect when eating raw meat.

The low-metabolism occurs on a low-carb/no-carb diet because of the glucose is consumed as the body tries to reduce the toxicity generated from being cooked. Humans require little glucose from carbs to produce health when the diet is raw with meats and fat.”

Until I found out the hard way I thought that raw natural whole foods can’t hurt. Now I realize that under certain conditions they may be quite damaging.

Finally, I wanted to answer the question why my “raw” treatment of hypothyroidism didn’t work. As I mentioned before, I was rather skeptical about thyroid supplements. I was convinced that if it was the case I would have noticed some changes from eating plenty of raw thyroid. Besides, my thyroid lab came normal and even in upper range. However, I have to admit that my conclusion was a bit premature. You see, the supplement letter to the prescription drug Armour (natural dried porcine thyroid extract) under the dosage and administration section recommends for hypothyroidism a therapy, “usually instituted using low doses with increments. The starting dose is 30mg. most patients require 60-120 mg and that is maintenance dose.” Not quite what I was doing by eating up to 5 oz or raw bovine thyroid. But, according to this letter, “administration of thyroid hormone in doses higher than those produced physiologically by the gland results in suppression of the production of endogenous hormone.” It seems obvious that I triggered thyroid suppression therapy by consuming hefty amounts of raw hormones…
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: DameonWolf on December 06, 2008, 02:34:48 am
Your case has had me pondering for quite a while. One of the facts I MUST bring to light here is the assumption that your kidney stones formed in a short period of time. The reality is you really don't know how long it took for them to form, they could have been forming your entire life. You definitley maybe right in thinking your diet triggered them, but it's also possible they were on their way out inevitably.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: JaX on December 09, 2008, 06:32:39 am
Hi Yuri.. Just came across your last few posts, and while I don't want to come off as negative, I have to say that I honestly think you are completely over-analysing and adding a huge stressor in your life as a result.

Has something happened in your life over which you had no control? And have you because of this uncontrollable/unexpected event looked for, and found, something over which you DO feel a sense of control - and it's completely consuming you, because you need that sense of control all the time?
That is common psychology.


I'm not saying it's bad to have a hobby, or even a distraction, but you are clearly analyzing too far, you are adding unnecessary stress in your life. Something like nutrition and health is something involving way too many factors for our brain to ever fully comprehend, you have to understand you can't measure your own temperature in different environments and ask yourself "why you didn't sweat at the sauna" and make conclusions about the health of your body or organs based on that. It only adds stress to the mind which stresses your physical body as well. It can become a nasty habit that is difficult to get rid off.

Much of what you are experiencing is pure placebo.

Maybe you need to reconnect in a new way in your life?


Please let me know what you think of what I just said.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on December 09, 2008, 03:22:01 pm
 in yuri's very first post he declares he was healthy until the passing away of his mother pushed him towards raw veganism...primal...raw paleo. The diet thing for him has sprung completely out of control.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: reyyzl on December 09, 2008, 04:04:37 pm
Have you considered the pemmican+liver+water diet?

Might be dangerous for you because of the three weeks of lethargy, and your extreme reaction to lack of sweet, but the problem seems to stem from carbohydrate addiction.
- by William on 10-23

    That gets rid of carbohydrate addiction?  How so?  Do you have good pemmican recipes?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on December 09, 2008, 07:26:29 pm
Hi Yuri.. Just came across your last few posts, and while I don't want to come off as negative, I have to say that I honestly think you are completely over-analysing and adding a huge stressor in your life as a result.

Has something happened in your life over which you had no control? And have you because of this uncontrollable/unexpected event looked for, and found, something over which you DO feel a sense of control - and it's completely consuming you, because you need that sense of control all the time?
That is common psychology.


I'm not saying it's bad to have a hobby, or even a distraction, but you are clearly analyzing too far, you are adding unnecessary stress in your life. Something like nutrition and health is something involving way too many factors for our brain to ever fully comprehend, you have to understand you can't measure your own temperature in different environments and ask yourself "why you didn't sweat at the sauna" and make conclusions about the health of your body or organs based on that. It only adds stress to the mind which stresses your physical body as well. It can become a nasty habit that is difficult to get rid off.

Much of what you are experiencing is pure placebo.

Maybe you need to reconnect in a new way in your life?


Please let me know what you think of what I just said.



I agree with you. Most of my life I used to take everything to the extremes... Diet was not exception.

As regards over-analysing I think I can't stop doing that. This is partially because I have brilliant memory. I recollect certain things from the past and they make me wonder why the difference is so huge now and why it was like that back then. The case with sauna was no different. I clearly remember how I reacted to hot exposure a couple of years ago (I sweated a lot) and that it is absolutely different right now.

However, I think there is one way out. If somebody can suggest a natural and painless remedy for COMPLETE memory loss I would readily give it a try. I will forget this uncontrollable death of my mother, all the dietary tips and other unhealthy contributors to my downfall... But, if I succeed, I won't report about my progress here...

Honestly, I have no idea how to reconnect...

thanks for suggestions
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: JaX on December 10, 2008, 12:30:28 am
You can't cause yourself complete memory loss, and even if you could, would you?

We are all dealt different cards in life, you have to play the ones you're dealt as well as you can.

If you want to get over something that has happened, or forget something, the only way is diversion. You need to fill your entire day, every single minute, with something that diverts you attention completely from stress or anxious thoughts and bad memories. You need new skills.

I'll explain it in scientific terms, if you need it: the more you focus on something, the more neural pathways are created in the brain for that specific skill or memory, and they get better and better at carrying impulses - you train yourself to feel "stress" or a certain memory, and you can become very good at it. That makes it extremely difficult to just "let go of a memory" or "get over something" because it's not enough to sit back and relax and try to block out thoughts, that's impossible. You don't need to stop your thoughts, you need to REPLACE them, that's the only way. When you preoccupy yourself completely with a new set of skills, your new skills will lead to new differing memories, which will slowly make new neural pathways in the brain, and there will be less and less activity in the old neural pathways, which means, with time you will get increasingly better at not thinking your old unpleasant thoughts.

The thoughts you are predominantly thinking (over analysis) are a habit. And since the brain needs activity constantly, and you seem to have a very active brain and good memory, it's impossible to stop thinking, instead you need to provide something else to use brain energy for, this will then become a new habit.

The human mind can only focus on one thing at a time. Remember that.


You have to figure out what you want to do..
Do something which preoccupies your thinking and will create a new skill in your life.
It could be a new project, new job(s), a trip to a country far away, hitchhiking on a different continent? Something radically different from what you have done so far, to break the old mind pattern.


If you want to stop over analyzing nutrition then a good place to start would be spend less time online and reading about all the factors, vitamins, you know.. (but remember, REPLACE that time you read about nutrition with something else)

Good luck




Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on December 10, 2008, 07:01:59 am
You don't want to completely rid your memory because there are good memories too.
I've gone through something very similiar and there is hope. At the moment you may be in pain and and when your in pain that's all you can think about.

Seeker's advice is on the money. You can 'rewire' your brain away from health/nutrition and the tendency towards introspection to look outwards to new hobbies, sport etc it can take time (6 to 8 years) you'll never be the same as before your life changed but you can still be happy and healthy.

You have to think of today as the first day of your life, change your life, turn off the internet, stop reading books and move forward.

Good luck.



Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on February 28, 2009, 10:06:31 am
There is always http://www.healself.org/. It works.

reyyzl, it gets rid of carb addiction by replacing carbs with fat. No cravings for me.
Pemmican is just powdered very dried beef mixed with tallow. Keep it simple.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on February 28, 2009, 11:46:54 am
I wonder how Yuri's getting on.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: reyyzl on February 28, 2009, 04:33:23 pm
   Hi William, I do find staying far away from carbohydrates and having plenty of raw fat around does help.  I haven't really eaten pemmican yet.  I'm kind of scared of it.  I like raw food.  I think it works better for me.

    I have tried Dr Bernarr DC's ways, consulted with him, et al.  He probably has helped many people, but his ways did not work for us, nor I assume for many others.  Has he gotten into food now?  Is he practicing dry fasting?  What's his weekly caloric intake recommendations of recent?  Has his particular energy medicine ideas helped you?

There is always http://www.healself.org/. It works.

reyyzl, it gets rid of carb addiction by replacing carbs with fat. No cravings for me.
Pemmican is just powdered very dried beef mixed with tallow. Keep it simple.

    Hi Yuri,  reading all you went through and seeing your recovering is inspiring that to continue to try everything possible even with whatever limitations each of anyone has, we may get 'there'  eventually.  Besides myself, my family shows no interest in raw foods nor paleo.  I have gotten one to try unpasteurized Amish butter and unheated honey on the skin, which worked so well and so caused only smiles and healing, but that's it, no more using it since that time several weeks ago.

    Are you doing well Yuri?  Sorry I haven't been around lately.  Warm wishes to you (-:  What did you do for the holidays?  We miss you on the boards, I do.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on February 28, 2009, 07:00:15 pm
   

 >   I have tried Dr Bernarr DC's ways, consulted with him, et al.  He probably has helped many people, but >his ways did not work for us, nor I assume for many others.  Has he gotten into food now?

It is a water fast until very hungry, then raw food - apparently he approved of my pemmican at the time, as he did not say anything about it.

>  Is he practicing dry fasting?

It is always a water fast.

>  What's his weekly caloric intake recommendations of recent?

He didn't say anything about calories.

>  Has his particular energy medicine ideas helped you?

I don't know anything about energy medicine; just followed his advice.

   
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: letifer on April 19, 2009, 02:06:34 pm
Hi Yuri,

I just read the entire thread and wanted to offer some advice since I am suffering from similar symptoms as you. I think the greatest commonality between us is stress (and the resultant fatigue, brain fog, dark circles, lack of joy, etc. ). Stress is absolutely deadly whether it be physical, emotional, or spiritual.

One thing which I always find a lack of mention on health sites is the value of sexual abstinence.  I would strongly suggest you avoid sex (no more than a couple times a month),masturbation,porn, and sexual stimuli. This was hugely beneficial to me. It is still not clear to me whether the main benefit comes for nutrient preservation (semen is rich in various minerals and fats) or the abstinence from orgasm (orgasm changes the chemistry of the brain; releasing prolactin so as to lower dopamine is one example.). I don't mean to say that you can't/won't have a sex life, only that sex/masturbation/orgasm can exhaust you tremendously when you are in an already weakened state. You need all of your energy to heal. As a search term I suggest "sexual exhaustion". There are forums dedicated to people trying to heal themselves, mostly through diet, lifestyle, supplements, and correcting hormonal imbalances.

Have you tried yoga, meditation, or deep breathing? I find that it helps with calming the mind.

The other thing I would suggest is to get a hair mineral analysis done. I have gotten two done and both came back with heavy metals. Heavy metal toxicity can wreak all sorts of havoc on you body and mental faculties.

Now some of my suggestions are not strictly diet related so I hope I am not violating any forum ethics by expanding the topic beyond the scope of diet.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on June 12, 2009, 10:05:57 pm
Dear Friends!

I apologize that I went missing. Things did not come around as they were expected and I didn’t have any opportunity to update my Journal. But I really missed you. Now I’ll try to catch up on all events.

Finally I saw the old year out. 2008 was by a country mile the hardest year in my life. Yes it was much more difficult, painful and distressing than 2006, when I lost my mom, my physique and my health in general. But I still cherished a forlorn hope for recovery.

January and February were bitter, titanic struggle. I was making every effort to at least put on hold my rapid decline by adjusting my supplement regimen and refining my diet. I was trying to understand how particular food or pill affected me and draw appropriate conclusions. I was upping my adrenal support, lowering thyroid and vice versa. I was increasing and decreasing my carb intake while looking for the least offensive sources. I was experimenting with digestive enzymes and Betaine HCL. But I got nowhere. I was chasing lost, hopeless cause.

This past winter was definitely the worst winter I have ever had. No matter how many clothes I wore I was still horribly frozen… I can’t describe accurately enough how it feels to experience such torturing coldness. It is just unbearable and brutal. Even now, when outside temperature reaches 35 C [95 F], I am dressed in a jacked. For such odd behaviour I was arrested by police yesterday. They obviously have failed to discern real causes ;)

At the end of February I took a big decision. I left my job. Acute symptoms persisted and I couldn’t perform my duties anymore. In fact, I could barely get from home to office and back. It was an uphill task for me. There were no alternative. I just was sanking deeper and deeper into my misery.

Then I put all my remaining strength into finding a specialist/doctor who could have helped me. I came prepared at each visit. Whenever I was given an opportunity to express myself I was trying to explain that I might be suffering from adrenal fatigue and/or hypothyroid. I presented lists of symptoms. Nobody took me seriously. I was ejected everywhere – from my local clinic to the Institute of Endocrinology. Ordinary doctors, specialists, professors and even doctors of medicine took a dim view of me and my problems.

I was completely lost… I heavily lacked support and understanding. I was wasting away. I wished I was put out of my misery. There seemed to be no escape from that. So I decided to live out my remaining days in the countryside.

On April 16 I packed my things and went home… The only good thing about that was that there was no internet, computer or even TV in the village. The total rest beckoned.

Just days before this date arrived another portion of magic pills from the US. I spent nearly 300$ on these adrenal and thyroid supplements. When I was ordering them they seemed to be my last hope. But I changed my mind when they were being shipped. I got them too little too late. When I collected the box at the post office I didn’t even open it. Straight into the bin. Bang! And don’t tell me that I’m nuts. I know that. So this was exactly my defiant mood when I was facing imminent trip back home.

Due to the lack of desirable effect from the cortisol/thyroid supplements and worsening symptoms I got out of patience with them and decided to stop them altogether. I started weaning off in Kyiv and by the May 1, when I was already in my village, I was completely off any hormones. With each reduction in dose I gained more and more confidence that I don’t need them at all. As far as my symptoms were concerned I didn’t notice any significant changes. Maybe that was because it could hardly be any worse than that. To my great surprise, there was a slight improvement in my body and rising temperatures. Slowly but surely, I was moving towards my goal, that is to get off any medications and continue self healing. However, I definitely became less stable emotionally. I had reoccurring attacks of anxiety, hopelessness, despair and depression. In general I felt strange. I was trying to calm myself and remain upbeat. Until the first accident happened.

After about a week in the countryside it got even worse. Well, I took cold, developed pneumonia, and that was nearly the end of me. I didn’t even care when my body temperature rose beyond 103F. I had no desire to fight for my life. I wished the quickest possible dispatch. But the following day the temperature dropped to the ordinary LOW. I don’t know why, but I persuaded myself to go to the drugstore, buy some antibiotics and kill the bugs in my lungs. In about 7 days I was back to my normal BAD.

Since I realized that in the village I wouldn’t be able to get any meats I decided eschew them altogether. April was my meatless month. I went on native familiar diet consisting of cooked potatoes, eggs and dairy. 6 April was my first day in ages when I ate the cooked food. Ha, boiled potatoes tasted so strange… It brought some childhood memories.

Over the four following weeks I never touched any sugar or fruit, except on two occasions when I had extreme fever and ate some honey. I was very strict with myself, eating four/five small meals each day. Dynamic Duo, i.e. Starch and Protein, were always consumed together, with some fat to taste. My staples were eggs, cream/butter and potatoes. I aimed at 2500 kcal daily. I averaged around 50-60 g of protein and 120-150 g of carbs. The rest was fat.

During another four following weeks I made some changes. I exchanged eggs for meat and experimented with other sources of starch, namely buckwheat and brown rice.

As a result of this cooked adventure, which lasted two months in total, my digestion has not improved at all. Eating caused me real discomfort. However, I have noticed that my stomach pains were not as severe. The bouts of violent diarrhea became less frequent. But stools were poorly formed and runny. Dull, nagging pain under my left ribs remained. I felt sleepy all the time. My eyes were swollen, dry, red and weary. At the same time I felt a bit stronger in my muscles, despite they were always sore.

On the 1-st of June I was taken on a week-long journey to the Black Sea coast. During the first three days I was successful in getting meat but the following three were absolutely bare so I had to fast. It was a screamingly hard experience. I had to check with my diary whether it was actually me who did intermittent fasting for nearly a year… I felt like I was going to die, honestly… It cost me a great deal of effort and maybe much, much more…

Before I went to the countryside I had donated blood. I did it because I though it would correct my ferritin levels if they were excessive. Two months later I contacted the clinic to learn with a surprise that they had found HBcAb in my blood. Quite a piece of bad news. It actually meant that I might have been infected in the past with hepatitis B or had either acute or chronic infection. Further tests had shown that my HBsAg antibodies were pretty high. That might indicate that my body developed immunity to HB V and that I had had it in the past.

On 25-th of May I woke up buzzing. That was the anniversary of a BIG day. Four years ago we[LFC] famously won the European Cup for the fifth time. It was THE most incredible night in my life for several reasons. We completed the most amazing comeback of all time, I was accompanied by an absolute beauty of a girl… Now I live on my memories only. Until the spring of 2006 I had almost perfect health. Then I made this BIG mistake of raw veganism. Somehow I survived. At the beginning of 2007 I took rather courageous step, i.e. RAW Primal Diet. It was a revelation. I was back to my life. Now I can’t stop asking myself why on earth did I try that damned intermittent fasting. It ruined me big time. This was the second biggest mistake of my whole life but it might prove to be decisive. Or not? ;)

The diet is just such a small thing in the complicated matter of health, wellbeing and happiness. Every time I saunter through the town and see those careless boys and girls with coke and hamburgers in their hands I kindly envy them. Honestly, I wish I never knew all these nutrition details and healthy eating habits. I realize that I will never be FREE.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Ioanna on June 12, 2009, 11:07:13 pm
Welcome Back!!

How are you/where are you now?

Quote
I realize that I will never be FREE.

You're too smart to be satisfied by some false sense of 'freedom' that stems from ignorance.  You'll earn your freedom, and that will be the real meaning of FREE.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on June 12, 2009, 11:11:36 pm
Wow....

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on June 13, 2009, 06:05:51 am
Intermittent fasting works for me, I think because I eat a lot of animal fat - this is the raw zero carbohydrate diet.
It also keeps me warm when others are complaining of the cold.

If you are up to reading, here is an inspiring story from one who believes that carbohydrates are poison (i agree with him):http://tiny.cc/qTDcg
http://activenocarber.myfreeforum.org/Bear_s_Words_Of_Wisdom_about22.html

Personally, while I am no longer free to live and eat as I once did, I am free of depression, drugs/supplements, doctors and can be confident that the damage of years of innocense will be healed.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: lex_rooker on June 28, 2009, 11:40:46 am
Amazing Yuri.  I wondered what happened to you.  Glad to hear you're still kicking and mean as ever ;)

Ioanna is right, ignorance is not freedom.

Lex
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on June 28, 2009, 05:40:51 pm

The problem maybe is that you try too hard...in everything you do. You became a lawyer...your an over achiever.
Sometimes you've got to hit rock bottom to rebuild..It sounds like your nearly there... or you might have already reached it.
Maybe what you need is the simple life.
Living in the village chopping wood and gardening.

Good Luck mate, I hope you well.




Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: lex_rooker on June 28, 2009, 11:46:45 pm
Wow Andrew, what insight.  You are right.  Early in my life I was an over achiever and perfectionist.  Made myself quite ill until I learned to lighten up and enjoy life rather than fight it.

Lex
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on June 29, 2009, 01:10:23 am


I think I'm giving myself advice.

My job situation has taken it's toll and I'm furiously attacking selection criteria at 1am on a Monday morning so I can get the  hell out. I've definitely over achieved (for my capabilities anyway!)

I'm going for easy jobs and a serious pay cut ;D



Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: cjb on June 29, 2009, 02:11:25 am
Wodgina,

What do you do now? I love the analogy, in ref. to what Lex and You were talking about re: trying too hard.  Just chopping wood and being in the village.  I guess this wasn't an analogy, actually, but I like the point you are making.  I keep trying to tell myelf--just relax, and then things go better.  Then you have energy to act when you wish and act with fortitude!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Cosmo on June 29, 2009, 02:18:16 am
Hey, Yuri.
I hope you're feeling much better and stronger now.
I've seen your pictures and decided to drop you a line. You don't look as if you're deficient in nutrients/minerals, your   hair looks great, skin looks very healthy and it's obvious to me that all the health troubles that you described in your journal were the signs of so called "healing crisis".
During healing crisis most of us experience mild depression, fatigue, brain fog, general feeling unwell etc.
It happened to me loads of times but I felt much stronger and happier afterwards.
So keep it in mind and don't give up.
As about kidney stones... how can you be so sure that you've got them? Have had any tests done? Kidney scan?
Full body scan?
Best wishes.
Cosmo
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: lex_rooker on June 29, 2009, 04:42:01 am
What I finally had to learn was that there was a huge difference between focusing on work you love to do until you sort of become lost in it and time just seems to stand still, and a relentless unreasonable pursuit of career advancement and/or perfection.  I wasted so many years trying to prove to others that I was worthy of advancement up the ladder of success, but in truth, hated what I was doing, and by extension, myself.  Once I gave up the quest for status and the admiration of others, and just focused on what I truly enjoyed doing, life became a joy and people who used to avoid me like the plague began to seek me out.

It is a difficult lesson to learn because our modern society places so much importance on status.  Usually this amounts nothing more than appearance over substance.  When I stopped trying to climb over the backs of others, and began to fold my hands in an effort to give those more talented than myself a boost, my whole life, career and all turned around for the better.  Since about age 30 I've not wasted another moment of time doing things I found distasteful to impress others.  Rather, I've focused on the things I'm passionate about.

Here's a recent example of what I'm talking about:  A neighbor and I are both retired and we live off of our investments and interest.  Seeing that banks are not paying much interest, my neighbor suggested that we go together and purchase a "fixer upper" house that recently went on the market in our neighborhood.  His reasoning was that we could get it for a much reduced price and then spend the next couple of years replacing the roof, making repairs, painting, and all the other tasks that go into restoring the house to habitable condition.  Over 3 to 5 years we could easily double our money or maybe more.  I declined because I don't like painting, plumbing, roofing, or the host of other required work.  I decided long ago that as long as I had enough money to pay my few bills and live my simple lifestlye, then I would never do work that I didn't want to do - no matter how much it paid.

I'm far from rich in the sense of money, but I wake up every morning with a zest for life and excited about what I'm going to do that day. This is something money can't buy.

Lex
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Cosmo on June 29, 2009, 03:22:34 pm

I'm far from rich in the sense of money, but I wake up every morning with a zest for life and excited about what I'm going to do that day. This is something money can't buy.


Hey, Lex.
I totally agree - you can't buy happiness or love, and you can't take money and status with you when you die. Life is too short and we need to enjoy every minute of it, and we must remember that the best things in life are free - beautiful friendships, a walk in the park, stargazing etc.
Here's one of my favourite songs called "Simple Life" by June Christy, it perfectly reflects my new state of mind (except for mashed patatoes) :D.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBoM_ojLNvU

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 10, 2009, 01:37:43 am
Salute!

No matter what happens with me next, I just wanted to tell you all that I love you!

Lex and all, thanks for the kind words. I appreciate your support very much.

I’m currently in Kyiv. Don’t even know what I’m doing here. I live in my brother’s apartment. Yes, I have a brother. He is 10 years older. My brother is the only person who could help me in this life. I don’t have job and can’t work so I’m dependent person right now. Wholly dependent on him. And lack of understanding on his part makes me unsure about my future. He is already on edge regarding my illness. He thinks I’m healthy and just lazy. He believes I’m pretending. He says that nobody in this country has condition such as mine. So naturally he disregards my complains. He still gives me some money for food so I’m able to continue my struggle. And I’m thankful to him for that.

You know William, as long as diet is concerned, I have to admit that I wasn’t as lucky as you were. You see, it was so simple for you… You adopted intermittent fasting and it worked for you, you ate high fat raw zero carbohydrate diet and you were fine on it. The same can be said about Lex, Geoff and others. They embarked on certain diets which worked for them in the first place. Unfortunately, it was not my case. Actually it was, and now I realize it, but I was stupid enough to look for perfection. When I first introduced raw meats into my life I was following AV’s Primal Diet. Four months were enough to turn my health 180 degrees. It is still vivid in my memory how energetic, vigorous and strong I was. Every cell of my body was alive and radiant. For the first time since my vegan experiment I enjoyed physical and mental health. There is a very wise saying, let well be alone or the best is the enemy of the good… I didn’t listen to reason and got punished. So, in search of perfection, I decided to try intermittent fasting. It just made so much sense. Besides, it was so convenient… I believed in it so much that I was continuing it despite obvious negative signs. I kept telling myself that it was adaptation period and that the hunger, shakiness and slowness of movements will go away as soon as my body gets used to the new regimen. I started looking for other reasons of my sudden decline. I though how intermittent fasting could be the culprit if other did it successfully? I was too naïve. Finally, zero carb finished me off. It was the last straw to break camel's back. As a result I developed kidney stones [actually, I saw them myself on the monitor, four 6 millimetres stones, two in each kidney] and it was the end of my hopes. My health began to really quickly fail after that.

You know Andrew, that is why I decided to go to my village. Yes, to be engaged in chopping wood and gardening. I even adjusted my diet accordingly. However, as I have found, dealing with wood and garden requires considerable effort and stamina. I was obviously too weak to do that.

I was thinking that perhaps this my life path was not right from the outset… If I remained in my pond and never attempted to move to the higher caste I would never had to go through this. I would never learn English, never knew about diets and Aajonus… But deep down I feel that was the right choice. That was my dream and I followed it. I tried my best and I succeeded. And if I was given right now the opportunity to choose my fate I wouldn’t change anything. I wouldn’t swap for anything in the world those hilarious six years at the University, the feeling of enormous pride when receiving my honourable diploma, the lot. Even now, only at the age of 25, I feel like my life is complete. I have accomplished what I strived for. And I respect myself for that. As for my illness, even now, when my life is in balance, I do regard it as a game. And until it is game on, I’ll exert my every effort, strain my every nerve and move heaven and earth to stay in it…

ave
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Cosmo on July 10, 2009, 05:05:27 am
Hey, Yuri!
Your English is great, where did you learnt it? I bet you can find a job as a translator.
As about your kidney stones, I'd like to suggest conducting a 24 hour water-melon fast ( eating nothing but water melons all day). Water-melon juice dissolves kidney stones.
Hope it helps.
Good luck.
Cosmo
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: reyyzl on July 10, 2009, 05:32:21 am
Hello Precious One,

    We love you too.

    It's very difficult having to live with people that don't understand. In this country too, certain illnesses 'do not exist' anymore.  It's a shame people aren't more open minded, but we have to accept some things as they are unless they are ready to change. It's good he's giving you support.  I wish you could be with dieters on the forum.

    I have not tried zero carb.  Thank you for all your experiences.  It's quite common and probably normal in young people to try for better and better.  I wish you well.

    What are you eating now?  What kind of exercise or other things are you able to practice?

    We have to keep trying.  My health may not be as bad as yours, but my family has made health improvements by us eating RAF.  You are very caring.  I hope you get well, and soon!

    Are you strong enough to talk on the phone?  Do you have access to a phone?  If you have the inclination to talk, I am here.

    reyyzl
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 10, 2009, 05:53:15 am
Hi Cosmo

Well, I think I've been too hasty saying that I had learnt English. Obviously, I'm still learning... I have to say that English is my love, my passion...

Yes, I could be a translator. This is actually my second profession. I even have a Master's Degree with a corresponding diploma. Ukrainian is my mother tongue, I know Russian perfectly, Spanish a little bit... So, plenty of options ;)

As regarding my stones they are the history. They appeared as a result of dietary habits inappropriate for my body [zero carb leads to ketosis and uric acid stones form only when the urine is acidic at 5.5 or less] coupled with overconsumption of sweetbreads, namely thyroid gland, which is high in purines [uric acid stones result from a problem metabolizing purines]. In fact, purines are good, only if you don't have problems metabolizing them... http://www.pumpa.org.uk/about.php
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: reyyzl on July 10, 2009, 06:40:45 am
    You are so full of information.  You did eat the thyroid raw?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on July 10, 2009, 06:45:34 am
It's been my impression that it is cooked zero carb that is acid-forming, and raw should be little or no problem. AFAIK all the published studies were done on ketosis with cooked.
The only organ meat I've eaten is a piece of liver now and then, maybe once a week.

The raw zero carb with tallow has been a splendid success for me, but there was lethargy until I increased the proportion of tallow to the estimated 80%.

Of course I am old and convalescent from one of the horrible modern diseases, so YMMV, and I am also full of (Bing) cherries right now, which might be affecting my mind.    ;)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: reyyzl on July 10, 2009, 07:41:23 am
    William, what is YMMV?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on July 10, 2009, 07:57:19 am
    William, what is YMMV?

Your Mileage May Vary
- seen on fuel consumption figures for new cars, means they are not all the same.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: reyyzl on July 10, 2009, 08:05:19 am
    I climb, run, walk, leap and so on, no new cars here.  Great! (-:
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on July 10, 2009, 08:21:01 am
You guy's should read his journal before giving anymore 'diet' advice or water melon flushes!!! he's tried 
everything!  :)

I don't know the answer but all I can do is give some of my thoughts.

Diet is such a small piece of the equation, for me,  if I'm not doing what I want to do in life my mind plays tricks on me. I start getting anxious, convince myself I might be schizophrenic or I've got some crazy disease. It's horrible and once I'm in that black hole 'I can't see the forest for the tree's' so don't know how to get out.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 10, 2009, 04:55:19 pm
You know William, you might be right regarding acidity of cooked zero carb diet. And I'm inclined to think that way as well. In my case it was the combination of the two, RAW thyroid and RAW zero carb, which did the damage. If either of these factors was isolated, the results might not have been such devastating... And I wouldn't eat thyroid under the normal circumstances, I just did that because I thought if I happened to have hypothyroid that should have definitely helped...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Cosmo on July 10, 2009, 05:10:11 pm
You guy's should read his journal before giving anymore 'diet' advice or water melon flushes!!! he's tried 
everything!  :)


Hey, what is a water melon flush?? :-))))))))))))
Water melon FAST is great for kidney stones, I know quite a few people who tried it and cured their kidneys.
Water melons are only available for a couple of months in Ukraine ( in the end of summer)

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Cosmo on July 10, 2009, 05:15:12 pm
Hi Cosmo

Yes, I could be a translator. This is actually my second profession. I even have a Master's Degree with a corresponding diploma. Ukrainian is my mother tongue, I know Russian perfectly, Spanish a little bit... So, plenty of options ;)


That's really cool! I'd love to learn Spanish and move to Spain, probably to Barcelona.
I plan to visit Ukraine one day, I love Ukrainian staple food - raw pork fat (salo). I buy it all the time from a local Russian/Latvian shop.
Do you ever eat salo? It's supposed to be good for you. Do you ever eat raw egg yolks and raw liver?
Cosmo
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 03, 2009, 06:24:34 pm
I'm inclined to believe that INTERMITTENT FASTING has ruined my endocrine system. It was a direct and powerful onslaught on the adrenal glands that triggered major hormonal chaos.

The cited studies may explain the mechanism of adrenal depletion:

Fasting Alters Pulsatile and Rhythmic Cortisol Release in Normal Man

"The effect of a 5-day fast on integrated, pulsatile, and periodic cortisol release was studied in 10 normal men by measuring serum cortisol concentrations every 20 min for 24 h before (day 0) and during the fifth day of fasting (day 5). Serum concentration profiles were analyzed for integrated cortisol release (area under the curve), pulsatile hormone release by an objective, statistically based pulse detection algorithm (cluster analysis), and periodic hormone release (circadian and ultradian rhythms) by Fourier expansion time series analysis. Urinary cortisol excretion per 24 h was measured in 5 men. The mean 24-h integrated serum cortisol concentration increased 1.7-fold during fasting (P = 0.0006). This increase resulted from a 2-fold increase in the serum cortisol concentrations between pulses (valley mean; P = 0.0004), an increase in the pulse height (P = 0.001), and an increase in pulse increment above baseline (P = 0.01). There were no changes in the number of pulses per 24 h, the interval between pulses, the width of the pulses, or the area of the pulses during fasting. Twenty-four-hour urinary cortisol excretion increased in all men, and the mean urinary cortisol (nanomoles per L)/creatinine clearance (milliliters per s) ratio increased from 119 on day 0 to 187 on day 5 (n = 5; P = 0.05). The pattern of periodic hormone release also changed during fasting; the mean (±SE) circadian rhythm (24-h) amplitude decreased from 160 ± 14 nmol/L on day 0 to 102 ± 105 nmol/L on day 5 (P = 0.06), and the amplitude of the 12-h rhythm increased from 68 ± 11 to 99 ± 11 nmol/L. There also were significant increases in the amplitudes of rhythms with periodicities of 8.1, 4.1, 2.4, 1.6, and 1.3 h (P = 0.02–0.008). Fasting in normal men results in distinct changes in the amount and pattern of pulsatile, circadian, and ultradian cortisol release.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/68/6/1013

***

Dual Regulation of Insulin-Like Growth Factor Binding Protein-1 Levels by Insulin and Cortisol during Fasting

These data show that insulin and cortisol both regulate IGFBP-1 secretion during fasting; the effects of insulin and cortisol are strong during the course of fasting. Significant hypoglycemia stimulates a further rise in IGFBP-1, which seems to be regulated, in part, by cortisol. The cortisol-induced rise in IGFBP-1 during fasting and during hypoglycemia potentially serves to prevent the hypoglycemic effects of free IGFs.

http://tiny.cc/ijwBP

***

24-hour rhythmic cortisol secretion by fasting stress in midluteal phase women

"In summary, short-term caloric deprivation enhances daily cortisol secretion by 1.7-fold in healthy midluteal phase young women by selectively amplifying cortisol secretory burst mass and elevating the 24-h rhythmic cortisol mean. Augmentation of daily cortisol production occurs without any concomitant changes in cortisol pulse frequency or half-life or any disruption of the timing of the 24-h rhythmicity or orderliness of cortisol release. Fasting degrades the physiological coupling between cortisol and LH, cortisol and GH, and cortisol and leptin secretion otherwise evident in calorie-sufficient women. We conclude that the corticotropic axis in the young adult female is not resistant to the stress-activating effects of short-term nutrient deprivation, but, rather, evinces strong adaptive homeostasis both monohormonally (cortisol) and bihormonally (cortisol paired with GH, LH, and leptin).

http://tiny.cc/yYbth

***

Fasting as a metabolic stress paradigm selectively amplifies cortisol secretory burst mass and delays the time of maximal nyctohemeral cortisol concentrations in healthy men

"In conclusion, the present data indicate that starvation-induced enhancement of cortisol secretion in young healthy men is mediated by an increased glucocorticoid secretory burst mass, rather than changes in secretory burst frequency or duration or in cortisol half-life. In addition, fasting modifies the diurnal secretory pattern of cortisol by delaying maximal serum concentrations to the early afternoon. The inverse relationship between serum cortisol and GH responses to fasting suggests differential regulation of the corticotropic and somatotropic axis by the metabolic stress of fasting and/or feedback interactions between these two axes when they are both activated. "

http://tiny.cc/FJsUh

***

FREE CORTISOL IN OBESITY; EFFECT OF FASTING

"Plasma and urinary corticosteroids were measured in 13 obese subjects before and after high and low protein diets, and after fasting. During isocaloric high and low protein diets, urinary 17-oxogenic steroids and to a lesser extent urinary free cortisol excretion rose and fell in parallel with protein intake. Plasma unbound cortisol levels were not much changed by high or low protein intake.

However, during 7 to 11 days total fasting, there was a highly significant rise in plasma unbound cortisol at 24.00. A smaller rise occurred at 09.00. The overall effect was a considerable diminution of the day-night variation of plasma unbound cortisol levels during fasting, and a rise in prevailing unbound cortisol levels and urinary free cortisol excretion. In 3 subjects tested these changes were reversed immediately by glucose re-feeding."

http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/2/321

***

The effect of Ramadan fasting on maternal serum lipids, cortisol levels and fetal development

"In the fasting group, the maternal serum cortisol levels on day 20 were significantly higher than the initial levels obtained 1 week prior to Ramadan (p < 0.05)."

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h4w1840303242r0n/

***

increased salivary cortisol in response to three stressful conditions

"In the fasting stress experiment, students had higher salivary cortisol concentrations after fasting for 15 h than they did after the completion of the GTT. Even short-term fasting is sufficiently stressful to cause activation of the HPA axis and a rise in cortisol (2). Once fasting has ended, cortisol levels drop to basal values quickly (2, 26, 27). The cortisol decline during a GTT has been suggested to reflect a circadian fall in circulating plasma cortisol (27). Basal cortisol has a precipitous circadian drop in the first 4 h of the light cycle (17). While our class met after this time, our data do not refute the possibility of a circadian effect as there were no differences in cortisol concentrations between the fasting samples in this experiment and basal samples from either the presentation stress or competition stress experiments (P > 0.05). This suggests that the decrease in cortisol concentration may be due to a circadian rhythm or the combination of a circadian decline in cortisol and the end of the fasting stress. Another possibility is that glucose ingestion directly effects cortisol release through an unknown mechanism (27)."

http://tiny.cc/HTfHV

***

The effect of a single missed evening meal on the male reproductive axis

The male reproductive axis reacts more quickly to energetic imbalances than previously appreciated.

•Waking and 11AM salivary cortisol remained unchanged by missing a single meal. Previous studies found cortisol increases following fasting. The cortisol awakening response may have concealed any fasting-stress based salivary increase. Urinary cortisol (unconfounded by waking response) increased significantly following a single evening of fasting. This is consistent with the literature (Cameron 1996).
•Salivary ghrelin was not associated with fasting. Diurnal variation in ghrelin production likely overshadowed any increase in salivary ghrelin. Future studies will asses urinary ghrelin, a pooled overnight measure less confounded by diurnal variation.
•Salivary ghrelin was strongly negatively associated with waking salivary testosterone. Combined with previous research showing high ghrelin expression in the testes, and decreases in T after ghrelin administration in vitro, these results are suggestive of ghrelin as a mechanism decreasing testosterone production during fasting (Barreiro and Tena-Sempere 2004).

http://www.csss.washington.edu/Anniversary/Poster/BenTrumble.pdf

***

Insulin, glucagon, Cortisol and growth hormone release in association with physiological decrements in the plasma glucose concentrations in fasting men

"All subjects fasted the whole month and the average fasting time was about 16 hours. Venous blood samples were taken on four different days; one day before Ramadan (day zero), then on the first, 74t h and 28t h days of the month. In each of these four days, blood samples were taken at 4:00 PM (shortly before evening meal). At the end of the month, mean weight loss was 3.9 kg (p<0.05). Reduction in the mean plasma glucose concentration from 5.21'±0.37 mmol/L to 3.71 ±0.46 mmol/L were associated with increments in plasma glucagon (34.9±9.4 pmol/L; p<0.001) and Cortisol (378±154 nmol/L; p<0.05) at the end of fasting, and the increment in plasma growth hormone (GH) 169±39.5 pmol/L; p<0.05) only on day 14 of fasting."

http://tipdizini.turkiyeklinikleri.com/download_pdf.php?id=51646
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on September 03, 2009, 09:28:05 pm
I read that caloric restriction or starvation increase cortisol production.

To my knowledge, Intermittent Fasting is not starvation (or should not be).
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 04, 2009, 12:22:57 am

To my knowledge, Intermittent Fasting is not starvation (or should not be).


IF shouldn't be starvation, definitely, but body may perceive it as such...

This is still a conundrum for me why some people greatly benefit eating one meal daily and others do struggle severely. I've heard that some have so strong adrenals that it is simply impossible for them to get adrenal exhaustion.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on September 04, 2009, 03:23:53 am
IF shouldn't be starvation, definitely, but body may perceive it as such...

This is still a conundrum for me why some people greatly benefit eating one meal daily and others do struggle severely. I've heard that some have so strong adrenals that it is simply impossible for them to get adrenal exhaustion.

Digestive ability can vary widely from one person to another. Not everybody can eat and assimilate enough food/calories on one sitting.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on September 04, 2009, 05:33:47 am
IF shouldn't be starvation, definitely, but body may perceive it as such...

This is still a conundrum for me why some people greatly benefit eating one meal daily and others do struggle severely. I've heard that some have so strong adrenals that it is simply impossible for them to get adrenal exhaustion.

Body must perceive IF as starvation if you ignore hunger, but then it's not IF.

I could never live on one meal daily until I started high fat (pemmican).
I had adrenal exhaustion years ago, while still eating veggies.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 04, 2009, 02:38:05 pm
I had adrenal exhaustion years ago, while still eating veggies.

Vegan/vegetarian diet has definitely weakened my adrenals. But I wouldn't say it was the exhaustion. More like mild fatigue. I recovered from it pretty fast on Primal Diet. However, true exhaustion or burnout is rather severe condition. In such state, a person is rarely able to work. Full rehabilitation, if possible, might take years.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: invisible on September 06, 2009, 06:10:06 pm
IF and calorie restriction are catabolic diets so it makes sense that catabolic hormones such as cortisol would rise while anabolic hormones such as insulin fall. Over the long term once weight stabilizes it would make sense if cortisol would then fall below baseline though.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 11, 2009, 03:53:43 pm
The first major issue resulting from my intermittent fasting failure was poor digestion. For the first time in my life I was facing such problem. I'm yet to find out how to deal with it.

Here is the abstract from the Article indicating connection between adrenals and stomach acid production:

TUERKISHER and Wertheimer (1945) found that the secretion of free and total acid by the stomachs of adrenalectomized, anesthetized and laparotomized rats was lower than that in control rats. Acid secretion in their preparations was not increased by administration of sodium chloride or desoxycorticosterone acetate, but it was increased by injections of a whole extract of the adrenal cortex. They concluded that the presence of hormones of the adrenal cortex is essential for the secretion of acid by the stomach.

Many of the numerous physiological changes which occur in animals as the result of adrenalectomy are known to affect the ability of the stomach to secrete acid. Among these changes are a fall in blood pressure and cardiac output, a decrease in blood glucose concentration, a distortion of the plasma electrolyte pattern and the occurrence of acidosis.

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/47/3/193

More information about the role of HCL:

Stomach acid or hydrochloric acid (HCl), is a very powerful digestive agent, and much more important than you realize.

HCl's important functions include:

    * Breaking down proteins into the essential amino acids and nutrients your body needs in order to stay healthy.
    * Stimulating your pancreas and small intestines to produce the digestive enzymes and bile necessary to further breakdown the carbohydrates, proteins and fats you eat.
    * Preventing disease by killing pathogenic bacteria and yeast normally present in food.

Low Stomach Acid: A Vicious Cycle

There are two main consequences of low stomach acid:

   1. You become protein malnourished. When your stomach acid is low, you are not able to digest protein.
          * Improper digestion of protein creates toxins in your intestines that can set the stage for illness and disease.
          * Improper digestion of protein also creates acidic blood, since protein is by nature acidic.
   2. You become mineral deficient. As your blood becomes more acidic, it will look for minerals from anywhere in your body, in order to get your blood to its more ideal alkaline state. Acidic blood robs your body of minerals, even taking minerals from your bones (which is important to know if you want to prevent osteoporosis).

Low stomach acid eventually creates a vicious cycle: low stomach acid = low minerals = acidic blood. This cycle continues because acidic blood further creates low minerals and low stomach acid.

Once this vicious cycle has started, there is a cascade of consequences:

    * You could eat plenty of protein and still be protein malnourished. This raises cortisol levels (stress or death hormone), thereby raising your blood glucose (blood sugar levels). Elevated cortisol adversely affects your behavior and temperment.
    * Eventually, your adrenals become depleted (adrenal fatigue) and DHEA, the youth hormone, is suppressed, leading to premature aging.

Low DHEA and high cortisol affect your brain and behavior, but that's not all. The vicious cycle of low stomach acid affects your inner ecosystem too. Low stomach acid can lead to more bad guys (pathogenic bacteria, candida and viruses) than good guys (healthy microflora), thus lowering your immunity.

Symptoms of Low Stomach Acid

Here are some of the common symptoms and disorders caused by low stomach acid:

    * Bloating, belching, and flatulence immediately after meals
    * Heartburn (often thought to be caused by too much stomach acid)
    * Indigestion, diarrhea, or constipation
    * Undigested food in stools
    * Acne
    * Rectal itching
    * Chronic candida
    * Hair loss in women
    * Multiple food allergies
    * Iron deficiency
    * Weak, peeling, or cracked fingernails
    * Chronic fatigue
    * Adrenal fatigue
    * Dry skin
    * Various autoimmune diseases

Increase Your Stomach Acid, Heal Your Digestion

http://www.bodyecology.com/07/09/20/low_stomach_acid_symptoms.php

As far as I'm aware, B12, folate, B6 and zinc are all required for stomach acid formation, and all require sufficient stomach acid to be absorbed.

The problem is that stomach acid levels generally decline with adrenal fatigue. As the levels decline this interferes with the body's ability to absorb the nutrients required to form the stomach acid including the mentioned nutrients. This leads to further reductions in stomach acid formation, leading to a loss to a loss of nutrient absorption..... And the cycle continues. Therefore, if the body is not producing stomach acid properly then the presence of protein (a stomach acid stimultant) is not going to raise stomach acid properly. And low stomach acid is not going to automatically stimulate the production of more acid.

I'm thinking about the benefits and disadvantages of Betaine HCL supplementation. Does anyone here have some experience in this regard?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on September 11, 2009, 04:19:08 pm
I have taken some betaine HCL during around 2 months. I started with one, and increased at every meal as it is usually recommended. I could take 20 or more capsules without discomfort. To be honest, I don't know if it really helps me. I stopped after a few weeks because I felt the burn in my stomach, and I could see parts of the capsules in my stool.
Today, my digestion is the same as before this experience. For exemple, if I eat seafood (oysters, crabs, etc.), I often have a digestive infection, which means that bacteria was not killed by HCL.

I believe that in our case, the best thing to do is :

Eat 2-3 (or more) small meals a day easy to digest (raw pemmican, tallow, clarified butter, etc.) in order to have a constant supply of energy.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 11, 2009, 06:49:19 pm
The case is that the adrenals do not play a role in stomach acid production. They only regulate stomach acid release. A direct correlation between adrenal stimulation and stomach acid release has been known for a while, which led to the belief that stress, which stimulates the adrenals, could cause ulcers.

Here is the Abstract of related Article:

"A relationship between the adrenal gland and the stomach has been demonstrated by an increased gastric acid and pepsin secretion during adrenal stimulation. The adrenal gland has been implicated in the pathogenesis of peptic ulcer disease by the development or reactivation of peptic ulcer during the administration of ACTH or the adrenal steroids.1-5 Conversely, patients with adrenal hypofunction (Addison's disease) characteristically present a decrease in gastric acidity and an unusually low incidence of chronic peptic ulcer.

It has been postulated that emotional duress and other alarm stimuli may produce acute and chronic peptic ulcer in man by a hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal pathway."

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/45/1/73

Betaine HCL could be an option for someone with acute adrenal fatigue. But I'm trying to figure out how to UNLOCK the release of stomach acid... How to directly stimulate it...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on September 11, 2009, 07:00:52 pm
I have a friend who suffer from Addison's disease. He must takes everyday some medecine (cortisol), otherwise he dies. He digests raw meat without problem.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 11, 2009, 07:20:48 pm
I have a friend who suffer from Addison's disease. He must takes everyday some medecine (cortisol), otherwise he dies. He digests raw meat without problem.

Hypochlorhydria in Addison's disease can be corrected with administration of cortisone. His daily cortisol may be the reason why he has no problems digesting meats.

I'm a bit worried about the following passage:

"The failure of cortisone to restore the acid secretion in six of our patients with Addison's disease and one with hypopituitarism may indicate that in humans some factor or factors other than DOCA in Addison's disease and thyroid extract in hypopituitarism is required for full replacement therapy or that the gastric mucosa had undergone irreversible change before treatment began."

http://gut.bmj.com/cgi/reprint/2/2/163.pdf
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on September 11, 2009, 07:44:48 pm
The article is a very good argument for eating raw fat meat, assuming that it is true that such needs no stomach acid for digestion.

Makes me wonder if adrenal insufficiency is maybe more common than suspected, and what causes it?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 11, 2009, 08:45:35 pm
The article is a very good argument for eating raw fat meat, assuming that it is true that such needs no stomach acid for digestion.


RAW meats and fats do require stomach acid for proper digestion and assimilation. However amounts needed for the raw foods may be much lower then for the cooked...

Prior to my adrenal fatigue I was able to consume large amounts of meat/fat without any discomfort. Now even two-three oz of soft organ (like kidney) is a tall order for my stomach.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 16, 2009, 11:45:57 pm
There are claims that the high fat, low carbohydrate ketogenic diet increases lean body mass , maximizes the bodybuilding effects of such hormones as testosterone, insulin, and natural GH (growth hormone) and lowers cortisol levels resulting in reduced catabolism or muscle breakdown.

I have found similar statements by Jimmy Moore and Michael R. Eades...

Jimmy Moore:

"While I appreciate the work Dr. Barry Sears puts out there, I disagree with his assertion that a state of ketosis increases cortisol and inflammation. The Inuit, Eskimos, and Paleolithic man all THRIVED on a very low-carb ketogenic (VLCK) diet where ketone bodies were the primary source of energy. There was no high-carb foods for them to consume…"

Michael R. Eades:

"In some people the state of ketosis induces a sort of euphoria and, often, insomnia. This state usually passes once one adapts to ketosis. No, low-carb diets don’t cause an increase cortisol. In fact, recent studies have shown just the reverse."

On the other hand, the ketogenic diet has been shown to decrease serum insulin levels and increase cortisol levels and recent studies have reported elevated cortisol levels in children on a ketogenic diet after several weeks...

It'd be great to know who is right...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on September 17, 2009, 04:18:23 pm
The claim re Palaeolithic man eating a very low carb ketogenic diet is quite wrong given that hunter-gatherers of today all eat more plant food the closer they get to the equator. And increasing scientific evidenc shows plant consumption in the Middle Palaeolithic etc. It is true that palaeo tribes must have been low carb but, unfortunately, scientific evidence re meat-consumption  is easy to prove as ancient bones are still available as evidence whereas almost all other organic matter such as meats or plant-remains is, understandably gone from the fossil record, as it doesn't fossilize.

I should also mention that, for me, going into ketosis caused my stress-hormone levels to rise dramatically, given my symptoms.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 17, 2009, 05:28:47 pm
I think the best evidence re the amount of plant matter consumption by hunter-gatherers would be the climate and living conditions. There is a huge portion of territory from the south of Ukraine to the north of the UK where fruits and veggies are not available for the most of the year. It is only during short period from late May till early October when any significant sources of carbohydrates can be found naturally in our latitudes. And still, most of those carbohydrates are not that palatable.

Now with autumn and winter looming I have this dilemma of finding local paleo carbs. There are simply no as such...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on September 17, 2009, 05:44:55 pm
I think the best evidence re the amount of plant matter consumption by hunter-gatherers would be the climate and living conditions. There is a huge portion of territory from the south of Ukraine to the north of the UK where fruits and veggies are not available for most of the year. It is only during short period from late May till early October when any significant sources of carbohydrates can be found naturally in our latitudes. And still, most of those carbohydrates are not that palatable.

Now with autumn and winter looming I have this dilemma of finding local paleo carbs. There are simply no as such...

Actually, the fruit/veg season is longer than that. From what I've read, wild animals do indeed subsist on berries/acorns etc. during winter(and they don't dry them like human native tribes do, so they must still be available).Another consideration is that there were warmer interglacial periods within the Ice Ages(warmer than now) which would have led to greater plant-consumption in Europe.

Oh, and one shouldn't judge past ages by present day conditions. For example, the area around Czernobyl is now chock full of wild animals and plants whereas, pre-human-habitation, the area was practically devoid of such life.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 17, 2009, 06:09:55 pm
Oh, and one shouldn't judge past ages by present day conditions. For example, the area around Czernobyl is now chock full of wild animals and plants whereas, pre-human-habitation, the area was practically devoid of such life.

Hey Tyler, are you sure about wild animals near the Chernobyl? Because given my problems with getting wild/grass-fed meats in this area, I may consider some hunting there, as the place where I live, Kiev, is mere 140 kilometers (87 miles) from Chernobyl... :)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 17, 2009, 06:12:53 pm
hunter-gatherers of today all eat more plant food.

What kind of plant food? Fruits mostly?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on September 17, 2009, 06:57:50 pm
Hey Tyler, are you sure about wild animals near the Chernobyl? Because given my problems with getting wild/grass-fed meats in this area, I may consider some hunting there, as the place where I live, Kiev, is mere 140 kilometers (87 miles) from Chernobyl... :)

There are 2 conflicting groups of scientists. 1 group claims wild animals are thriving:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4923342.stm

Another claims that wild animals are still suffering, there. However, as I understand it, the area is now a nature reserve.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on September 17, 2009, 06:58:29 pm
What kind of plant food? Fruits mostly?
No, Herbaceous plants were also commonly eaten in the Palaeolithic.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 17, 2009, 07:21:35 pm
There are 2 conflicting groups of scientists. 1 group claims wild animals are thriving:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4923342.stm

Another claims that wild animals are still suffering, there. However, as I understand it, the area is now a nature reserve.


Although it is not easy to get the access to the Chernobyl restricted zones I know from the local sources that there are plenty of admirers to hunt there.  Fish mongers are especially motivated expecting a good catch. We used to joke here about something un-proportionally big in size (enormous apple or strawberry) that it was harvested in Chernobyl...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 17, 2009, 08:31:47 pm
I’d like to speculate a little bit more on the carbohydrate intake.

In his book “The Ketogenic Diet: A complete guide for the Dieter and Practitioner” Lyle McDonald states that “in a non-ketotic state, the brain utilizes roughly 100 grams of glucose per day. This means that any diet which contains less than 100 grams of carbohydrate per day will induce ketosis, the depth of which will depend on how many carbohydrates are consumed (i.e. less carbohydrates will mean deeper ketosis). During the initial stages of ketosis, any carbohydrate intake below 100 grams will induce ketosis. As the brain adapts to using ketones for fuel and the body’s glucose requirements decrease, less carbohydrate must be consumed if ketosis is to be maintained.

He further says that “the consumption of carbohydrate will decrease dietary protein requirements since less glucose will need to be made from protein breakdown. For example, if a person was consuming 150 grams of protein per day, this would produce 87 grams of glucose plus 18 more from the breakdown of glycerol (from 180 grams of fat) for a total of 105 grams of glucose.” (Assuming a 58% conversion rate for protein and 10% for fat).

Dr. Jan Kwasniewski, the author of The Optimal Diet, suggests that a minimum daily intake of carbohydrate (50 g) is recommended in humans to prevent ketosis and loss of muscle protein. According to his opinion, a correct amount of protein to be consumed in a day is approx. 1 g per 1 kilogram of a due body weight. The ideal proportion between the main food components of protein, fat and carbohydrates should be in the range of: 1 : 2.5 - 3.5 : 0.8. Thus, for a typical 60 kg person, the consumption of 60 g of protein has to be accompanied by between 150 to 210 g of fat, and 30 to 50 g of carbohydrate in order to follow the principles of the Optimal Diet. As a result, we will have 50 g of glucose from carbs, around 35 from protein and from 15 to 20 from fat. That would yield the same 100 – 105 grams of daily glucose.

The question is whether there is any substantial difference between a zero carbohydrate diet consisting of around 150 grams of protein and 180 – 190 grams of fat and the Optimal Diet…?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on September 21, 2009, 11:13:22 pm
Yuri,

Can you detail the way you make your butter ?

It looks like there is a big difference between commercial butter (even raw) and traditional cultured butter in terms of digestion (and taste). I find the latter easier to digest and more tasty.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 22, 2009, 12:34:25 am
Sure, no problem!

Butter is a tricky thing. You can’t be sure of its quality unless you make it yourself. It is practically impossible to identify whether butter is without any additives, you never know if it is rinsed with pure non-chlorinated good water etc. Personally I’m very suspicious and never trust sellers no matter what they say. Besides, after several years of constant searching, I was able to find absolutely remarkable sour cream. For the above reasons I make the butter myself. Like most things made yourself, it tastes wonderful and you control the whole process. So if you're not satisfied with the quality of your butter churn out some butter! (by churn I mean shake up, as I have no butter churner and neither, in all probability, do you!).

Making Butter at Home

Ingredients
The 'ingredients' for butter are simply sour cream and clean cold/room temperature water.

Equipment
You do not need much equipment to make butter at home, a large jar with a lid being the minimum. Personally I use two-quart glass jar.

Method
Let the cream reach room temperature, around 20 C (68 F) is ideal – this is critical. It will make the whole process of churning a lot easier.

Half fill the jar, put the lid on and shake the cream up vigorously. Keep shaking it until the cream has separated into butter and buttermilk (15 to 20 minutes is a good guess on time). It takes patience and endurance. Don’t get discouraged if after about 15 minutes it still just looks like thick cream – it will separate, it just requires time and agitation.

It will go through the usual stage of starting to form firm peaks and then it becomes quite stiff. All of a sudden the cream goes a bit yellow in colour and then little bits of butter appear and a thin liquid, the buttermilk. Just seconds later, the butter seems to clump and is separated from the buttermilk. Drain the buttermilk off.

Washing the Butter
You need to get all the remaining buttermilk out of the butter thus removing traces of lactose and milk proteins. Add clean cold water to the butter in the jar and put the lid on and shake it again. You need the water to be cold or you melt the butter, which will then run off with the water.

Repeat the washing process until the water is really clean, this can be seven or more times. You now need to get the water out of the butter.

Finally, take out the butter from the jar and put it into any container or smaller jar. I store my butter in a half quart glass jars.

I would have uploaded the video of the whole process, but currently I don’t eat any butter so can’t do that. To complement the above instructions I will provide some pictures of butter making.

bon appétit!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on September 22, 2009, 11:18:41 pm
thank's Yuri  ;)

What is precisely sour cream ?
I can find raw organic cream from a farmer. I imagine it is sour cream ?

What about using a blender ?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 23, 2009, 12:07:43 am
Personally I wouldn't bother with blender. Using shaking method is so much simplier and quicker. The described method is by far the best way to make butter at home.

However, blender is a possibility... The basic concept remans the same.

This is the recipe from Aajonus:

Making Raw Butter From Raw Cream
Fill an 8-ounce jar with 7 ounces raw cream. Screw on blender washer/blades./base tightly and blenderize for 90 seconds on high speed. Pour off whey.

And another procedure:

Cream should be removed from the refrigerator and kept at room temperature for about 10 minutes before it is used.

Pour the cream into the bowl or mixer and run it at high speed until the butter separates from the buttermilk. When using a rotary eggbeater, this will take about 20 to 30 minutes. With an electric blender or mixer, it will take only about 3 to 5 minutes.

After the butter is formed, the buttermilk is poured off and the butter is placed in a mixing bowl.

The remaining buttermilk is worked out of the butter with a wooden spoon or paddle.

Butter is washed with cold water. The finished butter is then ready to be served or refrigerated.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on September 23, 2009, 12:16:06 am
Wow, very informative.  So that's how butter is made.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on September 23, 2009, 12:21:03 am
The difference between the fresh and sour cream is that the former is obtained form the fresh milk while the latter from the fermented milk. When milk ferments the fat usually goest to top. This is the traditional method of separating cream from milk. However, you can also get cream from the fresh milk. For this you may need a separator or cool the milk. You can still make sour cream by letting fresh cream sour naturally. So basically sour cream is just fresh cream gone bad...  ;)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 07, 2009, 06:54:07 pm
Ariite

Now is just the right time to give you a run down on the latest developments of my recovery saga.

At the end of June I finished my experiments with cooked foods. I may remind you that at the beginning of April I added some cooked starches to my raw paleo diet.  I did that because the importance of slow complex carbohydrates is every so often emphasized for the adrenal fatigue recovery.

It is nothing to be surprised about that I still continued to experience all those classic adrenal related symptoms. I was lethargic, fatigued, anemic. My muscles were weak and sore. I was ravenously hungry all the time. Despite the hot summer weather I was bitterly cold. I suffered from constant insomnia. I couldn’t cope with the chronic fear, worry and anxiety. So I got deeply frustrated with all that cooked experiment and decided to discontinue it altogether.

Early in July I went briefly on the Primal Diet. Than I switched to an all egg/yolk diet and remained on it until the end of the month. As the August rolled around I enriched my daily ration with 3-4 oz of organ meats, butter and a quart of home fermented goats milk. Along with that I used to have two large carbohydrates meals a week which consisted of about a kilo of local grown fruits. Eventually I amounted up to a pound of meat and a 1.5 quart of milk daily. I should also mention that throughout June and July I was drinking from one to four cups of green vegetable juices (mostly cucumber with little parsley or dill) each day.

I have to admit that during these two months I had some bright moments. There were the days when I was literary flying. On very rare occasions I felt like I had boundless amounts of energy. Sadly, each such high would be inevitably followed by a sickening crash. Such rollercoaster would further deteriorate my fragile health. I think that in general I was declining.

At the start of September I made a two-week long visit to my friend in the western Ukraine. It would have been bloody embarrassing to reveal my true eating habits. So I decided to endure a fortnight of fruitarian lifestyle. It proved to be much harder to sustain than I initially thought. I went through the incessant diarrhea, awful stomach pains, foul smelling gas and bloating. All these agonizing sufferings far outweighed the deceptive feeling of lightness, agility and liveliness.

There in the countryside, surrounded by the beauty of the Dniester Canyon, I was absorbed in thoughts. I spent whole hours in deep reflections about what went wrong. I had no illusions about the painful reality. Is the recovery to full health possible? Is it still a long way of…? I have got a lot on my mind at the moment. It raced, trying to think of a way out of the situation… I was open to the voice of reason. And I sensibly decided in favour of zero carbing.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 15, 2009, 09:49:51 pm
This key decision has been made on the 15-th of September. Exactly one month has passed since then. It is just the proper time to evaluate how this desperate attempt is progressing.

             The basics:
Food: 700 – 800 grams of mutton ribs/brisket.
Water: one pint daily.
Regimen: two meals a day.
Supplements: 500 mg – 1 g of Vitamin C.

Quality
For some time prior to and just after the beginning of my ZC I have been searching high and low for the good quality meats. Since I didn’t have a wide range of available choices I had to settle with the fresh mutton ribs and frozen wild fish. The mutton is neither grass-fed nor organic. It is just a normal/conventional domesticated mutton. I suppose the animals are fed grass, tubers and probably some grain. During the winter grass is substituted for hay. I cannot be sure but just hope that it is not injected with any vaccines or given other shots. I prefer ribs over other parts because they are the cheapest, the fattiest and the tastiest. I thought that in case the mutton that I eat is deficient in Omega-3 it would be a good idea to include some fish into the diet.

Quantity
At the start my daily menu included about a pound of fatty mutton ribs and one whole Atlantic herring or mackerel (200 – 300 g). Initially I didn’t know the exact percentage of fat to protein but then one day when I was butchering the ribs I decided to separate fat from lean and measure it. It turned out to be around 30% of fat by weight or 80% by calories. Since the fish is leaner (60% of fat by calories) the ratios of the whole diet were in the range of 75% of fat by calories. The total caloric intake was approximately 2000 kcal a day, whereas the amount of protein was 115 g or so and fat is 175 g. This continued for a week when I eschewed the fish and added more mutton. From that moment on my diet has been 700 – 800 grams of mutton ribs. It is roughly 2500 kcal daily, 115 g of protein and 240 of fat. By calories fat is 80% and protein is 20%.

My digestive abilities are severely limited. I can only consume under a pound of meat daily without significant discomfort. But in order to avoid caloric restriction and starvation I have to significantly exceed the above mentioned comfortable maximum. As a result it is not uncommon for me to suffer from heaviness and presence of food in the stomach, as well as from left side under rib pain. And I just can’t keep those ravenous hunger pangs at bay.

Frequency
After my intermittent fasting disaster I was understandably cautious about skipping meals. I attempted eating 5 – 6 times a day and sometimes even more. I tried to never go without food for more than three or four hours. But on those rare occasions when through force of circumstances I had to fast for a relatively short periods of time I experienced the sudden surges of clarity, vigour and vitality. Having thought about this phenomenon for quite a bit I agreed on a fair compromise between the two extremes. As a result I consume two meals per day, one just before the midday and another early in the evening.

The amount of water that I drink may seem to be rather low but I’m satisfied with it and don’t want more.

The Vitamin C issue
It is obviously a topic of considerable controversy for me. When I first got it I was somewhat sceptical about it. But it has certainly made an enormous difference. It alleviated some of my symptoms (muscle pain and weakness), enabled me to consume more meat (without it I can only consume half a pound daily) and made me feel better in general. I faced a dilemma of whether to stick with it or not. I stopped it for four or five times, waited for a week or two and analysed the results. Time and time again I have been noticing the marked improvement when I took it. It was a no-brainer that my adrenals undoubtedly benefited from it. After all I gave it the benefit of the doubt, at least for now.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on October 16, 2009, 02:14:07 am
Shouldn't you be eating fruit instead of artificial vitamin C?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ys on October 16, 2009, 02:36:37 am
Fruit would be perfectly OK if you don't mind extra sugars.  One average-size apple has about 15gr of sugar, that's about 3 full tea-spoons.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 16, 2009, 02:54:27 am
Yes I should. And I definitely will after I have got my health back.

I think that healthy individuals on a raw paleo diet require very little dietary Vit C. People with certain health issues (adrenal fatigue) may need significantly higher dosages.

Since I acquired hormonal related problems I've been eating 5-10% of fruit most of the time. This is one year and a half. My health has been progressively declining each day. I became so weak that I had to leave the job. I was so anemic that I couldn't even speak on the phone. I remained in the bed most days because it was a big struggle for me to get out of it. Synthetic Vit C has helped me tremendously.

But honestly, I hate even the mere thought that I'm taking it. I'm doing it for only one reason: BECAUSE IT WORKS. And works much better than all the fruits in the world.

Still, why do you think that Ascorbic Acid is unconditionally harmful?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 16, 2009, 10:51:00 am
...
Quality
For some time prior to and just after the beginning of my ZC I have been searching high and low for the good quality meats. Since I didn’t have a wide range of available choices I had to settle with the fresh mutton ribs and frozen wild fish. The mutton is neither grass-fed nor organic. It is just a normal/conventional domesticated mutton. I suppose the animals are fed grass, tubers and probably some grain. During the winter grass is substituted for hay. ...
A friend of mine told me that her co-worker from Ukraine said that most of the meats there are grassfed, but it sounds like that's not true, based on what you're telling me, correct?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on October 16, 2009, 05:47:02 pm
Well, if you think it works for you..
In my own case, artificial vitamins/minerals did nothing for me, I just pissed them out almost immediately.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 16, 2009, 06:08:21 pm
I explored through the length and breadth of this country in search of the true grass-fed meats. I can assure you that I know this issue inside out. The simple truth is that there are no either fully grass-fed or even organic meats here in Ukraine. What we have is something special. I talked to hundreds of people who grow their own animals, as well as to farmers, butchers, veterinarians, sanitary inspections the lot. They believe it is a complete absurd that animals can be raised on grass only. They ALL remain firmly convinced that poor animal MUST eat grains and tubers and corn in order to survive… They cultivate their gardens to provide this forage. Such is their set of mind. It’s local mentality. You just can’t eradicate that. These are difficult to root out prejudices. And they all vaccinate. You have to show the relevant documentation in order to sell on the market. The same situation is in most neighbouring countries. And her co-worker is hugely mislead. Just because these issues are not regulated by the government it doesn’t necessarily mean that meats are of exceptional quality. This is simply not true. There is, however, one exception. There high in the Carpathian Mountains, early in the Spring when the grass just starts to grow, the shepherd walks around the area and collects domesticated sheep. His herd grazes the endless highland pastures until the late fall when the animals are handed back to their original hosts. This is the quality. This is grass fed. This is organic. This is free range. But only seasonally… And only so far away…
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 16, 2009, 06:32:11 pm
Well, if you think it works for you..
In my own case, artificial vitamins/minerals did nothing for me, I just pissed them out almost immediately.

My long-term commitment to raw pelo principles is unquestionable. But sometimes a slight deviation is required due to the combination of circumstances.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 17, 2009, 12:39:15 am
... They believe it is a complete absurd that animals can be raised on grass only. They ALL remain firmly convinced that poor animal MUST eat grains and tubers and corn in order to survive…
Wow, that is rather unfortunate extreme ignorance. It's their belief that is absurd. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of 100% grassfed cattle operations around the world (with many having Websites)--including even here in cold, wintry Vermont. There is little or no cereal grains (including corn) or tubers available to most ruminants in the wild (ruminants cannot dig up tubers the way pigs can), so it's just not possible that grains or tubers would be required for their survival. Heck, if there are any old cattle men around there who raised cattle before the 1950s in Ukraine, I would think there's a good chance they were 100% pasture-feeding them, and they could personally attest to the survival of the cattle. Today's young, ignorant cattle raisers just need to ask the old timers.

<<Grass-Fed Beef
The Paleo Diet Newsletter
Volume 3, Issue 2
http://www.thepaleodiet.com/newsletter/PDUpdate0407.shtml

Changes in Cattle Husbandry and Feeding Practices since the Industrial Revolution

...In the U.S., prior to 1850 virtually all cattle were free range or pasture fed and typically slaughtered at 4-5 years of age (3).  By about 1885, the science of rapidly fattening cattle in feedlots had advanced to the point where it was possible to produce a 545 kg steer ready for slaughter in 24 months and which exhibited “marbled meat” (3). ....

Modern feedlot operations involving as many as 100,000 cattle emerged in the 1950s....>>


Grass-fed beef heading for table
Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file) - Chicago, Ill.
Author:    Richard Orr
Date:    Sep 28, 1974

 "After World War 11 a significant shift to grain feeding occurred, although It took nearly two decades for the practice to become widespread."
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 17, 2009, 02:55:09 am
I've got the day off and am taking it easy today after getting my overdue dental gum graft procedure done (don't worry--the problem existed long before my RPD diet, so it's not the result of that), and I've got lots of experience with mineral supplements, so I'll delve further into this subject that I've touched on before.

Well, if you think it works for you..
In my own case, artificial vitamins/minerals did nothing for me, I just pissed them out almost immediately.
Mineral supplementation predates humans. Animals that eat a diet heavy in plants need to supplement with minerals (see the video below)--and the clay-rich soils also act as a detoxicant for the antinutrients that otherwise would accumulate from eating herbivorous foods. They don't immediately piss out the minerals. If they did, they could not survive.

I sympathize with your skepticism re: minerals, Tyler, because I used to share it. I've heard the "expensive piss" argument from skeptics of supplements before and even made it myself in the past. The usual case is that the skeptic has tried certain supplements without benefit or has never tried supplements and read or heard negative information about them. Having worked in a health store and seeing that many supplements and herbal treatments did little or nothing for my customers, I do think that the benefits of supplements are oversold by the supplement companies, but if they really had no effect whatsoever, then animals would not bother with mineral-rich clay pits like the one in the video and physicians would not prescribe oral and intravenous nutrients for their seriously deficient patients. Interestingly, unadulterated minerals were one of the things in the store that actually did seem to help a good portion of my customers who tried them, yet there was much less push from the owner of the store and the distributors to sell them (the heavier push was on the latest fads, patented mixtures, and stuff that made little sense to me, like homeopathic and flower remedies), because they are basically unpatentable commodities with low profit margins.

In my own experience, I had heard the expensive urine argument from my high school biology teacher and assumed he was right for years. I developed chronic acne in my senior year. My mother was a reader of Prevention magazine and she told me about Prevention's recommendation of zinc for chronic acne. I gave her the expensive piss argument, but she persisted, so I tried the recommended dose (I think it was 25 or 30mg per day) just to get her off my back, not expecting it to work--and it didn't. I saw this as confirmation of my teacher's remark.

Years later when my various of my health symptoms worsened I became motivated to find solutions and tried nearly everything, including trying various supplements--again with little or no noticeable effect. So I again assumed that my teacher had been right.

Some more years later I tried eliminating dairy and gluten with my doctor's encouragement and experienced amazing benefits. One of the benefits I experienced was a dramatic reduction in my acne to the point where most of it was gone three and a half weeks after going gluten free. Unlike my high school days, I had access to the relatively recent invention of the Internet and I found much research about how gluten prevents absorption of certain nutrients and how components of it like phytates even act as "antinutrients," binding with minerals like zinc and magnesium and leading to deficiencies in these nutrients. I read that zinc deficiency was associated with chronic acne. I also read how going GF can heal the small and large intestines and improve absorption of minerals and other nutrients (I would later learn that consumption of dairy is also associated with acne, as is consumption of other modern foods, not just wheat).

A little while later I experienced some gradual increase in acne again. While it was nowhere near as bad as before I had gone GF, it was annoying enough to warrant treating it. But instead of reaching for my old topical prescriptions, I wondered whether going GF would have reduced the antinutrient levels in my diet sufficiently and improved my intestinal absorption to the point where zinc supplements might now help. I gave it a try and this time it worked. While a 30mg daily dose was helpful, I found that a higher dose was much more effective and I took copper with it to avoid copper deficiency and took meals with it to avoid GI upset.

I also ate lots of zinc-rich foods and hoped that some day I would no longer need the zinc supplements, just as I no longer needed the Px meds. Strangely, the zinc-rich foods seemed to make no difference whatsoever in my acne, though I did eventually notice that my acne outbreaks seemed to be worse when I had eaten more carbs than usual. It was not until years later when I went VLC and then carnivorous that I noticed further improvement in my acne and discovered several weeks after I eliminated all plants from my diet that my acne was controlled to the point where I could give up the zinc supplements completely and remain clear of acne (I am forgetful, so there had been frequent instances where I forgot to take my zinc supplements and learned within a day or two that my acne exacerbated if I didn't continue taking zinc daily, and there would still be very small acne outbreaks now and then even while taking the zinc).

So for me supplements were no miracle cure, but some supplements, such as zinc, magnesium and potassium, did greatly reduce my symptoms. As always, your mileage may vary. The optimal situation is to find a diet that works for you and provides all your nutrients and develop your body's health to the point that it is absorbing nutrients efficiently enough so that you don't need any supplements other than maybe vitamin D (the best source of which is the sun, but most people work indoors these days).

Amazing nature photography of Mount Kenya, Africa - BBC wildlife
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIZc0xVGYag&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=C35A11617ECCA92F&index=1&playnext=2&playnext_from=SPL

At 2:39 in the video: "Forest animals like the bushbuck [and water buffalo, elephants, etc.] can't get enough sodium and potassium in their diet, so they need to visit special places where the salts are more concentrated."

The difficulty for modern humans is we've apparently lost our instinct for knowing when and how much to supplement, and one can throw other minerals out of balance if one takes a single mineral in exclusion of others and doesn't know how much to take.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 17, 2009, 03:12:27 am
The optimal situation is to find a diet that works for you and provides all your nutrients and develop your body's health to the point that it is absorbing nutrients efficiently enough so that you don't need any supplements other than maybe vitamin D (the best source of which is the sun, but most people work indoors these days).

Thanks for sharing your experience. Do you take any supplements now? Vit D?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 17, 2009, 03:39:35 am
You're welcome. Yes, I take Vitamin D (cod liver oil) and I just started taking some magnesium again, because my fecal output decreased to about 1/3 of what it was, just like Lex said it would, and I have started to get some dry/hard constipation again (although not as bad as prior to carnivore and without the mucus, cramps, reactive diarrhea and other associated problems I had while still eating plants). I figured it also might further improve my dental health.

While I was VLC I still had to take potassium and zinc in addition to the vitamin D and magnesium, because I would otherwise get muscle cramps in my feet and acne. On carnivore I no longer need potassium or zinc. The acne stays away without zinc or other treatments for the first time since it started 27 years ago.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on October 17, 2009, 05:21:41 pm
The expensive piss argument is valid. I went in for a minimum 2-3 year phase pre-rawpalaeodiet when I went in very heavily indeed for supplements. This supplement-phase became extreme when I went in for the raw vegan/fruitarian diets as I was worried re the nutritional deficiency issue. I would consume vast amounts/megadoses of vitamin/mineral supplements which, in hindsight, did nothing for more specific problems related to deficiencies in those vitamins/minerals(I just got worse). And my urine would become differently coloured and more frequent  after consuming such pills, indicating that they were just being pissed away.  Oh, and I also took multiple herbal supplements(all heavily processed so were useless), along with unusual products like royal jelly and propolis(invariably heated so useless). In the end, out of desperation I was taking something like bteween 20 to 40 different supplements each day(1 to 3 tablets each time). Funnily enough, the only supplements which had any genuine(if short-term) effect were the Bach Flower and other homeopathic remedies.

Aajonus makes a claim that taking supplements gives one a fake 24-hour placebo-like effect and I concur as regards the supplements I took(other than the Bach Flower/Homeopathic  remedies) as I didn't experience that feeling during days when I forgot to take any supplements. However, as time went on, that fake 24-hour feel-good feeling did not obscure the fact that my health-problems were still very gradually declining(that is, I realised I was less healthy than I was before taking those supplements years before). Now, compare this to my experience on a RVAF diet where I had a remarkably fast recovery as soon as I cut out all dairy and otherwise went rawpalaeo, with deficiencies disappearing like clockwork.

In short, any processed supplement I view as a waste of time. Raw, fermented cod liver oil(and genuinely raw royal jelly), raw herbs and similiar unprocessed stuff are fine by me, though and have worked for me.

As regards the plants/antinutrients claim, it's rather dodgy. Sure, some wild animals do use clays to get rid of toxins from certain plants(for example David Attenborough's wildlife series showed parrots deliberately eating clay/kaolin shortly after eating a specific species of poisonous plant), but this is not applicable in all cases of plants.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ys on October 17, 2009, 09:49:46 pm
I was taking so called "Professional grade" supplements, supposedly the best thing out there. Standard mix, C, Bs, D, E, minerals, folate, and so on.  I was taking them for a while but did not notice any difference whatsoever except brightly yellow urine.  I stopped using them a while ago, but continued to take D on and off.  I'm inclining to stop D as well as I do not feel any difference.

No one really knows how much supplements we really need if any at all.  In my opinion all those guidelines were taken from thin air.  I speculate that all those studies that say you need increased intake of such and such to cure this and that are sponsored by the multi-billion dollar supplements industry.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 17, 2009, 10:28:57 pm
Yellow urine must be from Vitamins B.

Folate levels are really low in Paleo Diet (if you on't eat liver daily).
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 18, 2009, 03:32:09 am
The expensive piss argument is valid. I went in for a minimum 2-3 year phase pre-rawpalaeodiet when I went in very heavily indeed for supplements. ...
As far as your experience goes, that's apparently true, but for my experience and the experience of many other people I found it to be an overexaggeration--and I am more skeptical than most when it comes to supplements, having gotten a peak inside the supplement industry and seen some of its dirty laundry and having started from a position of seeing all supplements as expensive piss.

I explained in detail how I had been a skeptic like you but found through extensive experience, including testing myself by going off and back on supplements and with blind testing (yes, I'm a geek, I know), that the effects were real. Do you really believe that physicians prescribe intravenous and oral nutrients to severely deficient patients despite no benefit whatsoever? Also, if supplements have no effects whatsoever, then why do the critics warn about the side effects of megadoses? Obviously they have effects, the only question is whether they are beneficial or not and in what cases. The medical and research communities already generally accept that SOME supplements are beneficial for severely deficient patients, there is only significant disagreement over whether patients with less severe deficiencies benefit from supplementation. If your consensus argument has any validity at all, then it would apply to SOME supplements as well and not just Maillard products.

I should also explain that I believe that ideally we wouldn't need any supplements, including the fermented cod liver oil you take, but would instead get all our nutrients from diet, sunlight, etc. However, modern living does not make that practicable for most people and every raw and Paleo diet guru I've seen advocates at least one supplement--as do you. I think that most people who have been doing the RPD for a month or more should be able to get by on no more supplements than naturally fermented cod liver oil (and even that is only required if they don't spend most of every day in the outdoors), but that is a guesstimate based on our experiences here and certain people will likely have more severe deficiencies that take longer to resolve. I'm just positing a guess, not trying to speak for others.
Quote
In short, any processed supplement I view as a waste of time. Raw, fermented cod liver oil(and genuinely raw royal jelly), raw herbs and similiar unprocessed stuff are fine by me, though and have worked for me.
So you don't view all supplements as expensive piss, just processed supplements, correct? If so, then we basically agree, as I never claimed that all supplements work. I also believe that in most cases where supplements have been taken for a long time that this is an indicator that the person's diet is not yet optimized for their needs, and I suspect that you agree with me on this too.

Quote
As regards the plants/antinutrients claim, it's rather dodgy. Sure, some wild animals do use clays to get rid of toxins from certain plants(for example David Attenborough's wildlife series showed parrots deliberately eating clay/kaolin shortly after eating a specific species of poisonous plant), but this is not applicable in all cases of plants.
Another irrelevant straw man. I never said that all wild animals use clays or that any wild animals use clays for toxins in "all cases of plants."

I don't see how it's dodgy if some wild animals do it. That's like saying the RPD is dodgy because only some people do it. Of particular relevance to humans is the fact that all wild primates that eat heavy amounts of herbivorous foods (such as the mountain gorillas that eat lots of leaves) also regularly consume clays, charcoal or other detoxicants. The other wild animals who tend to consume detoxicants most often are also those that eat diets heaviest in antinutrient-rich plants, like seeds in the example of the parrots that you gave. Fruits and meats do not appear to be nearly as rich in antinutrients as other plant foods like greens, seeds, nuts and legumes, so wild frugivores and carnivores do not tend to regularly eat clays, AFAIK, or at least not as often. Even omnivorous animals who eat some fruits and meats also consume clays if they eat lots of herbivorous foods--for example, chimpanzees during the season that they eat lots of leaves.

There are reportedly still more benefits to geophagy (clay eating) beyond detoxification and mineral supplementation. For example, clay may trigger antimalarial medicinal benefits from the plant, Trichilia rubescens, and Montmorillonite may even have played a role in the development of life on planet earth (see "More on medical geophagy in chimps: montmorillonite clay and the origins of life," http://scienceblogs.com/terrasig/2008/02/more_on_medical_geophagy_in_ch.php).

While frugivorous diets don't have the high levels of antinutrients that herbivorous diets do, excess frugivory does pose another problem for wild chimps: dental caries...

"Chimpanzees, which eat far more sugary fruit than howler monkeys, suffer from both tooth decay and gum disease. To cope with this ailment, they chew on antibacterial barks—which local people use to keep teeth healthy—and inspect and clean each other’s teeth." (Wild Health, by Cindy Engel, 2002, p. 89)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on October 18, 2009, 03:56:32 am
So you don't view all supplements as expensive piss, just processed supplements, correct? If so, then we basically agree, as I never claimed that all supplements work. I also believe that in most cases where supplements have been taken for a long time that this is an indicator that the person's diet is not yet optimized for their needs, and I suspect that you agree with me on this too.

This is a classic flawed argument, the only so-called  "supplements" I accept are raw and unprocessed, like the raw royal jelly and the raw, fermented cod liver oil. The very fact that they are not processed makes them a "food" not a "supplement".Also, technically speaking, I don't "need" them as such, I only use them, because, every now and then, I'm forced to eat/drink unpleasant non-rawpalaeo stuff and the cod liver oil makes up for that.

Quote
Another irrelevant straw man. I never said that all wild animals use clays or that any wild animals use clays for toxins in "all cases of plants."

Again, as in the text below that comment, you are certainly implying that it's commonplace for plant-eating creatures to eat clay, whereas, as I pointed out, this applies generally only to specific plant-species consumed, not all or even most of them.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 18, 2009, 07:42:19 am
If you don't call raw royal jelly and raw fermented cod liver oil supplements, what do you call them? In other words, for the purposes of discussion, how do you distinguish them from other foods? It's difficult to discuss them if we don't have a name for this special category of foods.

Quote
every now and then, I'm forced to eat/drink unpleasant non-rawpalaeo stuff and the cod liver oil makes up for that.
Do you know what your vitamin D level is and what do you feel is an approximately healthy level, if any? Is sunlight required to achieve sufficient levels of vitamin D, or is a regular, non-supplemented diet sufficient? If diet is sufficient, which foods do you find provide what you view as the necessary levels of vitamin D?

Quote
Again, as in the text below that comment, you are certainly implying that it's commonplace for plant-eating creatures to eat clay, whereas, as I pointed out, this applies generally only to specific plant-species consumed, not all or even most of them.
Please read what I wrote again. I'm not going to respond to any more of these straw men. I can tolerate a couple misrepresentations of what I wrote, but not a pattern of misrepresenting both my words and the words of others here. Your statement is irrelevant to what I actually wrote.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on October 18, 2009, 06:01:03 pm
If you don't call raw royal jelly and raw fermented cod liver oil supplements, what do you call them? In other words, for the purposes of discussion, how do you distinguish them from other foods? It's difficult to discuss them if we don't have a name for this special category of foods.

I just refer to them as a food. After all, if I'd lived in the days of my Viking ancestors, I would have been consuming fermented cod livers stright from a barrel or take raw royal jelly straight from a hive, and wouldn't have seen them as "supplements". Incidentally, I  recognise that some people may have managed to benefit from mass-supplementation (of artificial vitamins/minerals) due to massive deficiencies gained on a cooked diet, it's just that, long-term, and in most cases short-term, I've yet to see them as being useful in any way by comparison to raw foods.
Quote
Do you know what your vitamin D level is and what do you feel is an approximately healthy level, if any? Is sunlight required to achieve sufficient levels of vitamin D, or is a regular, non-supplemented diet sufficient? If diet is sufficient, which foods do you find provide what you view as the necessary levels of vitamin D?

I'm not concerned re the vitamin D issue. I eat so much in the way of raw wild shellfish(oysters, scallops, lobster/mussels etc.) that I'm sure I'm getting enough(even if I weren't to eat raw cod liver oil as well). That said, I always feel even better when I'm exposed to the sun in the summer(but that could be due to the sea-air, being exposed to Nature etc.) Oh, re vitamin/mineral levels:- I've never gone in for self-analysis re testing urine or bloof-pressure etc. I find that most of the science of the human body is still so vague and not properly understood, that I don't see the point behind measuring such details. In the end, I can only go by feel.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on October 19, 2009, 05:09:31 am
Yuri,

I heard your voice again on the Aajonus show at OneRadioNetwork.
Have you tried Aajonus' advice to eat a protein food every 5 hours?
That sounds interesting.
I'm trying it beginning today.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on October 19, 2009, 07:55:19 am
I just refer to them as a food.
Yes, but how do we distinguish those special foods from your other foods? In other words, you eat those foods for a special reason, to offset the damage from cheating. For the purposes of discussion and simplicity, I call these special-purpose foods like fermented cod liver oil "supplements" and I don't see "supplements" as being restricted to processed supplements. After all, even the Vikings didn't eat just the cod livers and discard the rest of the fish.

I take cod liver oil when I'm not getting lots of sun or not eating lots of wild shellfish and fatty fish. When I do this, I consider it supplementation--even if the cod liver oil is unheated. It's a special food, separated from the original whole source and used for a special purpose. If you have a better term, please share it. I agree that using supplements that come closest to being wild food are best, if and when necessary, but "food" doesn't distinguish the special purpose of these foods and makes discussion nearly impossible. Simply for the purpose of facilitating discussion could you be a bit more specific than "food," please? Heck, even Dr. Ron's calls their products, like their fermented cod liver oil, "supplements": "The ingredients for all of our supplements come primarily from the United States, New Zealand and Europe."

Perhaps we'll have to invent a new word, like "foodlements" (someone else thought of that before I did http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=foodlements&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=59681ffd38a8e39f :D ) or something, if supplements is unacceptable?

Quote
if I'd lived in the days of my Viking ancestors, I would have been consuming fermented cod livers stright from a barrel or take raw royal jelly straight from a hive, and wouldn't have seen them as "supplements".
Yes, but we don't live in the Viking days, we live today and many of us live in urban, land-locked areas, so many make some compromises.

Quote
I'm not concerned re the vitamin D issue. I eat so much in the way of raw wild shellfish(oysters, scallops, lobster/mussels etc.)....
But aren't wild shellfish and fatty fish seasonal? Do you take the fermented cod liver oil outside of the wild shellfish seasons?

BTW, do you have any idea how much wild shellfish is necessary to avoid needing to take unheated fermented cod liver oil? I eat wild clams but don't know how much vitamin D I'm getting out of it. I work indoors and live in a northern region, so my guess would be that my vitamin D levels are low when I'm not eating wild shellfish or fatty fish--probably even during the summer.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 19, 2009, 05:21:29 pm
Yuri,

I heard your voice again on the Aajonus show at OneRadioNetwork.
Have you tried Aajonus' advice to eat a protein food every 5 hours?
That sounds interesting.
I'm trying it beginning today.

Well, yes it was me…

He actually believes that “blood proteins drop after 5 hours... red cells become catabolistic... you consume from two to four tbsp of your blood every night...”

And he advised me "to sip raw milk and eat lots of raw eggs to recover from MONO MEAL DIET..."

I explained in my earlier post (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg18784/#msg18784) why I preferred two meals regimen to frequent eating. To my opinion the best indicator for a healthy person when to eat is HUNGER. If I followed this rule in the past I would have never exhausted my adrenals in the first place. I remember that I have been permanently hungry from the day one since starting intermittent fasting. I was hoping that I would adapt but sadly for me it had never happened.

After having done with IF I have been looking for ways to alleviate my insatiable hunger. Much to my astonishment more than a year of eating frequent meals, surplus calories and massive amounts of raw fat have helped me little if at all. Hypoglycaemia is one of the possible causes for incessant hunger. The symptoms of adrenal axis stress and cortisol imbalance are very similar to hypoglycemia and are typically characterized by: fibromyalgia, shakiness or lightheadedness, lightheadedness upon standing, constant hunger, frequent heart pounding, anxiety, anxiety attack, panic attack, depression (describes me precisely). Then there is a suggestion that when the adrenal glands are exhausted and can't produce enough cortisol, the low cortisol levels can't effectively antagonize insulin and thus the blood sugar plummets below levels to maintain well-being.

The typical nutritional approach for adrenal stress is a low sugar, complex carbohydrate diet similar to that of hypoglycemia. In general it all comes to the same thing: eting low-carb, eating moderate protein, waiting 5-6 hours between meals. You can also read these two great articles: More on Insulin Control (http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2008/11/previous-post-discussed-three-legged.html) and Reactive Hypoglycemia
 (http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2008/10/reactive-hypoglycemia-experiment.html)
Personally I believe that eating two or three meals a day is an ultimate solution. IF is a fantastic plan also but it is not for everyone.

But always remember, HUNGER is your worst enemy. Keep clear of it.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on October 19, 2009, 07:04:21 pm
I take cod liver oil when I'm not getting lots of sun or not eating lots of wild shellfish and fatty fish. When I do this, I consider it supplementation--even if the cod liver oil is unheated. It's a special food, separated from the original whole source and used for a special purpose. If you have a better term, please share it. I agree that using supplements that come closest to being wild food are best, if and when necessary, but "food" doesn't distinguish the special purpose of these foods and makes discussion nearly impossible. Simply for the purpose of facilitating discussion could you be a bit more specific than "food," please? Heck, even Dr. Ron's calls their products, like their fermented cod liver oil, "supplements": "The ingredients for all of our supplements come primarily from the United States, New Zealand and Europe."

Perhaps we'll have to invent a new word, like "foodlements" (someone else thought of that before I did http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=foodlements&aq=f&aqi=&oq=&fp=59681ffd38a8e39f :D ) or something, if supplements is unacceptable?
Yes, but we don't live in the Viking days, we live today and many of us live in urban, land-locked areas, so many make some compromises.

Just because we don't live in Viking days doesn't mean we shouldn't emulate them as closely as is feasible.
Quote
But aren't
n't wild shellfish and fatty fish seasonal? Do you take the fermented cod liver oil outside of the wild shellfish seasons?

Yes, they're seasonal but when I can't eat decent raw mussels I'll turn to raw wildcaught oysters and so on, so , taken as a whole, raw fatty fish and raw shellfish are available all year round.
Quote
BTW, do you have any idea how much wild shellfish is necessary to avoid needing to take unheated fermented cod liver oil? I eat wild clams but don't know how much vitamin D I'm getting out of it. I work indoors and live in a northern region, so my guess would be that my vitamin D levels are low when I'm not eating wild shellfish or fatty fish--probably even during the summer.


I eat 20 extra-large raw wildcaught oysters usually once a fortnight, with sometimes other shellfish added on such as bags of raw mussels, raw lobster etc. I reckon that's enough, I mean shellfish are supposed to be reasonably high in vitamin D vis-av-si other raw foods.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on October 19, 2009, 08:27:27 pm
Knowing to much about about health and diets are your worst enemy.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 19, 2009, 08:54:33 pm
Just because we don't live in Viking days doesn't mean we shouldn't emulate them as
I eat 20 extra-large raw wildcaught oysters usually once a fortnight, with sometimes other shellfish added on such as bags of raw mussels, raw lobster etc. I reckon that's enough, I mean shellfish are supposed to be reasonably high in vitamin D vis-av-si other raw foods.

Lobster (http://webprod.hc-sc.gc.ca/cnf-fce/report-rapport.do?lang=eng) contain as little as 0.010 microgram of Vit D per 100 g, mussels (http://webprod.hc-sc.gc.ca/cnf-fce/report-rapport.do?lang=eng) only 0.140 microgram and oysters  (http://webprod.hc-sc.gc.ca/cnf-fce/report-rapport.do?lang=eng)have 8.000 microgram. While 5 ml of regular Fish liver oil (http://webprod.hc-sc.gc.ca/cnf-fce/report-rapport.do?lang=eng) provide 10.653 mcg.

Sources  (http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitamin-d-safety.html#table1)of Vitamin D.

For Vitamin D 1mcg is 40 international units. The commonly recommended adult dose of 400 units is actually 10 micrograms of the active component in the formulation.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 19, 2009, 09:07:22 pm
Knowing to much about about health and diets are your worst enemy.

Absolutely right you are! Unfortunately gone are those halcyon days...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on October 20, 2009, 12:41:08 am
I remember that I have been permanently hungry from the day one since starting intermittent fasting. I was hoping that I would adapt but sadly for me it had never happened.

After having done with IF I have been looking for ways to alleviate my insatiable hunger. Much to my astonishment more than a year of eating frequent meals, surplus calories and massive amounts of raw fat have helped me little if at all.

More speculation - someone pointed out that even if we get all the required nutrients in our food, it's what we actually absorb that really matters. Hunger means that you are not absorbing all needed stuff.
Why not?
Digestion/absorption is a co-operative effort, between us and our "friendly bacteria" - these are known, maybe other living critters. We are composite creatures, never alone, and are supposed to get help from these residents who flourish and do their thing if we create the right environment (Bechamp's "terrain"). They are killed by common preservatives in food and poisons/pollution in environment.

A useful approach might be to see our innards as a farm, such that we cultivate the right critters by feeding them what they need. For me, it looks like the right ones don't need carbohydrates, and do need the right kind of fats, sometimes including marrow and even whatever is in krill oil. Probably fat from brains would be the best, but not available where I live.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Raw Kyle on October 20, 2009, 06:25:39 am
Knowing to much about about health and diets are your worst enemy.

starting to think this as well
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 21, 2009, 08:41:38 pm
How the events unfolded...

Week One
Weight 66.2 kg.
Negatives: The beginning has been excruciatingly painful. Life has become hellish and absolutely unbearable. I can’t believe that I’m doing it. Intense muscle ache and weakness persists. Fatigue is severe. I can barely get out of bed. Standing still is difficult and causes discomfort. Walking is easier.
Positives: Stomach pains have lessened with the absence of plant foods. Bowel movements have become better formed and more regular.

Week Two
Weight 66.9 kg.
Negatives: The body’s immune system is not functioning adequately. Wounds are sluggish. Even minor cuts and bruises take days and days to heal. Swelling stays for a while. Still enduring pain and suffering. Completely stressed out. Anxiety, panic attacks, worry, fear, insecurity...
Positives: Have started light exercises. At the end of the second week I have had a moment of relief. Felt strong for a half a day or so.

Week Three
Weight 67.2 kg.
Negatives: Despite eating nothing but meat and fat for three weeks the slight stomach pains remain. They are not near as severe as they were from eating plants/fruits/dairy and eggs but still downright unpleasant. Anxiety, fatigue, cold hands and cold intolerance, poor and un-refreshing sleep are heading the list of chronic symptoms.
Positives: I must say, I’m rather surprised by easiness and regularity of my bowel movements.

Week Four
Weight 68.1 kg.
Negatives: And then out of the clear sky comes this painful surprise... Nagging lower back/loin pain has begun. I have read that faults in purine steps which recycle waste from daily cell death/turnover can produce this. I find the prospect of redeveloping kidney stones extremely alarming...
Positives: As the week wore on I have been feeling better and better. The muscle pain has minimized. Physical weakness has markedly diminished. This progress may quite just be deceiving though...

Week Five
Weight 70.1 kg.
Negatives: I have added more weight around my waist. Belly fat has also rapidly increased. The body's inability to convert protein into muscle tissue is obvious. It really concerns me that my urine is cloudy sometimes.  
Positives: I ended this fifth week on a real high. My anemia noticeably improved. What a joy to be able to talk…
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on October 21, 2009, 09:17:02 pm
Theres nothing wrong with you. Your just anxious and depressed. It happens to nice intelligent guys like you.
Sort that out and your imagined 'illness' will disappear.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 21, 2009, 09:30:48 pm
I am slowly working my way through...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 28, 2009, 10:44:17 pm
Week Six
Weight 70.5 kg.

I dropped Vitamin C last Tuesday. There wasn’t sudden change for the worse. But my health has been declining slowly since then. Initially my energy levels decreased. Than muscle stiffness and pain returned. My legs were sinking under me. General weakness set in. That has lead to the mounting anxiety and insomnia. Eventually I became physically tired, totally exhausted and emotionally drained. So I feel pretty horrible again.

This Vit C withdrawal has unmasked the potential negatives resulting from ZC. Without it I wouldn’t have lasted that long. I am not sure this is the optimal diet for people with the exhausted adrenals.

The only benefit derived from the past week’s experiments was that I was able to figure out what was causing my cloudy urine. You have hit it! Vitamin C.

I am puzzled how to act in this unfortunate set of circumstances that made my life so incredibly difficult.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: reyyzl on October 28, 2009, 10:59:11 pm
    Last time you did no carbs the result was kidney stones.  Perhaps you are not the only one.  One of the things I like about the primal diet is that I urinate less than other food (I can't say I've tried no carb), I drink less water, I feel more hydrated, my bladder feels more comfortable and my kidney area doesn't ache.  Could raw milk or greens have been supporting your kidneys before?  Maybe those foods are good for you, Yuri.  I didn't want to say anything, because how should I know if what you decide to do might not be the best thing for you?  But your health declining again, and you said you felt good on primal diet.  Maybe you yourself need moderation of diet, a few carbs, but not over done in one direction or another.  Forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn.  I hope what I said helped.  Maybe you just need to stay on no carb longer.  I certainly don't know everything.   
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 04, 2009, 08:57:50 pm
bingo!

I gathered my energies and got to the computer.

Yes I have been through a very traumatic ZC experience. Back then I was eating ZC which was also high in purines (raw thyroid, organ meats etc.). The only difference I made this time was to lower the purine load by excluding or severely limiting organ meats. But that didn’t calm my mind completely and the prospect of redeveloping kidney stones remained my primary concern. So naturally I got myself all hot and bothered about getting my kidneys tested and checked. I have ultrasound scan of the kidneys and bladder on November 25. I did basic urine test and blood biochemistry analysis. I will have the results soon.

I wish I knew the exact diet which could regenerate me. It would have been so simple to just follow it. It’s true that the Primal Diet was massively healing for me. But I was so much stronger back then. And NOTHING has worked after my intermittent fasting fiasco. I have never been the same again.

I am always open to a friendly word of advice. This is the main reason why I’m posting here. I want get to the heart of the matter.

The human endocrine system is sort of a control-freak. And like all other control-freaks, it has to be managed or it can wreck the whole life. Endocrine system is a committee of glands and organs that regulate an extraordinary number of bodily functions by squirting chemical messengers into the bloodstream. These chemical hormones travel around the body giving orders. They secretly tell the body parts what to do – without the body even knowing about it.

The word "hormone" means to "urge on" or to "excite" – and that's exactly what they do. They cause things to happen that have an impact on how one feels. For example, hormones determine how a person handles stress, how they react to an emergency and the moods that affect them. And to top it off, they decide whether you feel hungry or full, how you use the food you eat and whether or not you're fat or thin. Talk about a control-freak!

In a nutshell the endocrine system is the Holy Grail of health. By its nature a Holy Grail problem is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to solve.

I have to call up my remaining strength not to give up...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: livingthelife on November 04, 2009, 10:48:04 pm
I am always open to a friendly word of advice. This is the main reason why I’m posting here. I want get to the heart of the matter.

Theres nothing wrong with you. Your just anxious and depressed. It happens to nice intelligent guys like you.
Sort that out and your imagined 'illness' will disappear.

Try to relax and turn your focus toward building a proper life for yourself, Yuri. Maturing is not easy, especially when circumstances undercut your resources. Picking yourself apart is undermining your health. The endocrine system is not a control freak, it's a regulatory system. This "mind vs body" attitude is very damaging, and we all tend to fall into it at times. Learn to love yourself - internalize that which you are seeking.

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-hug005.gif)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 07, 2009, 11:27:09 pm
My results after 7 raw ZC weeks:

General urine analysis:
– presence of insignificant amount of mucus;
– neutral PH (I’m surprised to see that after 6 ZC weeks).

General blood analysis:
– haemoglobin: 125  (range 130 – 160);
– erythrocytes: 3.8 (range 4.0 – 5.0);
– leucocytes: 5.8 (range 4 – 9);
– erythrocyte sedimentation rate: 17 (range 1 – 10).

Blood Biochemistry:
– plasma is milky in colour;
– Bilirubin total: 6 umol/L (range <17);
– Bilirubin direct: 0 umol/L (range <5.1);
– Bilirubin indirect: 6 umol/L;
– thymol test: 11.6 (range 0 – 4);
– ALT: 36 iu/L (range <41);
– AST: 36 iu/L (range <37);
– B-lipoprotein: 107 (range 35 – 55);
– R-factor: negative;
– antistreptolysin test: ++ high;
– uric acid: 609 umol/L (range 202 – 417).

The doc’s diagnosis was unequivocal: GOUT and LIPAEMIA!

Gout  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gout)is a disease hallmarked by elevated levels of uric acid in the bloodstream.

Lipaemia (http://www.wikidoc.org/index.php/Lipaemia)describes an abnormally high concentration of lipids in the blood, usually in the form of very low density lipoproteins (VLDLs) or chylomicrons. Characteristically the blood plasma may appear white or milky in colour due to the presence of fat.

not much to boast of...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: livingthelife on November 07, 2009, 11:37:47 pm
Sorry to learn of these problems. I hope you are soon well and happy!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 08, 2009, 01:29:28 am
Sorry to hear that. What were your numbers before you went ZC? What are you eating now? If you were doing better in the past, what were you eating when you were at your best?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 08, 2009, 02:43:04 am
I have had blood biochemical analysis on March 30, 2009. Here are the results:

Blood Biochemistry:
– high serum lipid concentration
– Bilirubin total: 6 umol/L (range <17);
– ALT: 31 iu/L (range <41);
– AST: 26 iu/L (range <37);
– creatinine: 67 umol/L (range: 62-106);
– R-factor: negative;
– C-reactive protein: negative;
– antistreptolysin test: negative;
– total protein 74 g/L (range: 60 – 80);
– uric acid: 314 umol/L (range 202 – 417).

Back then I was eating around one pound of meats/organs, bone marrow and about 50g og carbs from fruit or honey.

I'm still zeroing (600+ of fatty lamb). It is a hell of a ride without Vitamin C.

I felt best on a core Primal Diet. But that was before my failed intermittent fasting attempt. NOTHING has really worked since then.

I am particularly concerned about two thing in my labs. The first is elevated serum uric acid. Is it normal for zero carbers? And the second is abnormally high concentration of lipids in the blood and sky-high B-lipoprotein which is nothing but very low density lipoproteins.

I have very few thoughts on the subject... What do you make of this?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: RawZi on November 08, 2009, 04:18:17 am
I hope you feel better soon.  I don't really know anything about lipaemia or ZC.  I hope to hear in the coming months that you are out enjoying your young life. 

I keep thinking I should try zc.  I was going to today.  Instead I'm doing buffalo marrow with raw JBudwig, no seed hulls.

I never got tested for gout, but I did have symtoms of in the early 1990's on vegan, none recently, no treatment.  I've had symptoms of weak kidneys and adrenals since 1970's, but much better raw omni.  I know raw animal protein is good for kidneys, but I wonder if there can be too much of a good thing.

Thank you so much, that we can read about your struggles as you go through this.  It's not wasted on "deaf ears".  I just hope you get well soon.  I imagine this could be scary for you.   
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on November 08, 2009, 04:45:44 am
Looks like something wrong with fat metabolism; compare with Lex's results.
And the pH of urine is remarkable, in that Lex's shows very acidic.

Since fat is known to be an essential nutrient, I would guess that the amount, kind and quality of fat in your diet is worth investigating, and especially the proportion to meat.
The only other thing that I know of that interferes with fat metabolism is carbohydrates.

From Phinney's review "Ketogenic Diets and 
Physical Performance":
 "At the other end of the spectrum, higher protein intakes have the 
potential for negative side-effects if intake of this nutrient 
exceeds 25% of daily energy expenditure. One concern with higher 
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative 
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a 
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis). "
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on November 08, 2009, 04:55:09 am
Do you feel any gout symptoms?
Do you have pain on your feet? on your knees?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 08, 2009, 05:32:26 am
Do you feel any gout symptoms?
Do you have pain on your feet? on your knees?


I have been suferring from intense joint and lower back pain. Consumption of any high purine foods like herring or liver made it worse. Otherwise I seem to not have any gout-like inflammations.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: livingthelife on November 08, 2009, 06:32:12 am
Yuri's decline in health began with some lifestyle traumas that had nothing to do with diet. See his first post:

As little as three years ago I was in very good physical form and had what I considered an excellent health. Over the following two years a several huge stressors (unexpected and shocking death of my mother, graduation from the University, new job search etc.) pushed me initially to raw vegetarianism and further to raw veganism. Three months of the latter, when my diet was exclusively plant based and extremely high in fruit, were enough to make me dreadfully weak and exhausted.

Dietary issues arose later, first as a coping mechanism and later as a genuine attempt to regain vitality.

Looks like something wrong with fat metabolism

From shock to adrenal fatigue and now impaired metabolism resulting in gout (in one's 20s!!)...

I don't want to be disagreeable, but discussions here on the forum are often quite narrow - limited to what a person is putting in one's mouth - despite the many profound and varied factors that affect health. Nicola correctly identified this attitude in the past as an eating disorder.

I do believe that everyone here wants to embrace health and gain knowledge. I think we do want to support one another, despite the frictions that arise. In Yuri's case, and please forgive my tone on this, I think he will NOT be helped by any further dissection of his diet with numbers and charts accompanied by recommendations from laypersons. I am and have been very concerned about Yuri (he knows this), and I am imploring him and others to help him direct his attentions to generalized wellness so that he can close his "recovery" journal and participate both in this forum and his life as a healthy young man.

 :'(

Sorry if I've offended. I mean well.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: popeye on November 08, 2009, 09:21:07 am
bingo!

I gathered my energies and got to the computer.

Yes I have been through a very traumatic ZC experience. Back then I was eating ZC which was also high in purines (raw thyroid, organ meats etc.). The only difference I made this time was to lower the purine load by excluding or severely limiting organ meats. But that didn’t calm my mind completely and the prospect of redeveloping kidney stones remained my primary concern. So naturally I got myself all hot and bothered about getting my kidneys tested and checked. I have ultrasound scan of the kidneys and bladder on November 25. I did basic urine test and blood biochemistry analysis. I will have the results soon.

I wish I knew the exact diet which could regenerate me. It would have been so simple to just follow it. It’s true that the Primal Diet was massively healing for me. But I was so much stronger back then. And NOTHING has worked after my intermittent fasting fiasco. I have never been the same again.

I am always open to a friendly word of advice. This is the main reason why I’m posting here. I want get to the heart of the matter.

The human endocrine system is sort of a control-freak. And like all other control-freaks, it has to be managed or it can wreck the whole life. Endocrine system is a committee of glands and organs that regulate an extraordinary number of bodily functions by squirting chemical messengers into the bloodstream. These chemical hormones travel around the body giving orders. They secretly tell the body parts what to do – without the body even knowing about it.

The word "hormone" means to "urge on" or to "excite" – and that's exactly what they do. They cause things to happen that have an impact on how one feels. For example, hormones determine how a person handles stress, how they react to an emergency and the moods that affect them. And to top it off, they decide whether you feel hungry or full, how you use the food you eat and whether or not you're fat or thin. Talk about a control-freak!

In a nutshell the endocrine system is the Holy Grail of health. By its nature a Holy Grail problem is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to solve.

I have to call up my remaining strength not to give up...

Yuri, after reading your journal I am struck by how similar your story sounds to mine.  I too went through a period of vegetarianism that culminated in a miserable two years of attempted raw veganism.  A lot of your symptoms sound identical to mine, particularly the chronic fatigue, depression and anxiety, cold hands and feet, and low motivation.  I am still trying to resolve all my symptoms, but have been making progress.  Should I find a regimen that reverses my condition I will describe it in full so other people may be able to benefit.  I certainly empathize with you and know exactly what it's like to feel helpless and miserable all the time with seemingly no end in sight.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 08, 2009, 05:03:22 pm
I guess that doc might have been too hasty with the gout diagnosis. The fact is that my serum uric acid levels were in range when I was eating at least some carbs. It is only now on ZC when they went through the roof. I think Lyle McDonald in “The Ketogenic Diet: A complete guide for the Dieter and Practitioner” explains it in plain and precise terms:

Uric acid levels
Uric acid is a waste product of protein metabolism that is excreted through the kidneys. Under normal circumstances, uric acid is excreted as quickly as it is produced. This prevents a buildup of uric acid in the bloodstream which can cause problems, the most common of which is gout. Gout occurs when urate cause deposit in the joints and cause pain.
High levels of uric acid in the bloodstream can occur under one of two conditions: when production is increased or when removal through the kidneys is decreased. The ketogenic diet has been shown to affect the rate of uric acid excretion through the kidneys.
Ketones and uric acid compete for the same transport mechanism in the kidneys. Thus when the kidneys remove excess ketone bodies from the bloodstream, the removal of uric acid decreases and a buildup occurs.
Studies of the ketogenic diet and PSMF show a consistent and large (oftentimes doubling or tripling from normal levels) initial increase in uric acid levels in the blood. In general however, levels return towards normal after several weeks of the diet. Small amounts of carbohydrates (5% of total daily calories) can prevent a buildup of uric acid. Additionally, in studies of both epileptic children as well as adults the incidence of gout are very few, and only occur in individuals who are predisposed genetically.
Related to this topic, uric acid stones have occasionally been found in epileptic children following the ketogenic diet. This appears to be related to high levels of urinary ketones, low urinary pH and fluid restriction in these patients. It is unknown whether individuals consuming sufficient water on a ketogenic diet have any risk for this complication.
From a practical standpoint, individuals with a genetic predisposition towards gout should either include a minimal amount of carbohydrates (5% of total calories) in their diet or not use a ketogenic diet.

I'm far more worried about the bleak prospect of kidney stones...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 09, 2009, 04:27:56 am
<<...uric acid stones have occasionally been found in epileptic children following the ketogenic diet. This appears to be related to high levels of urinary ketones, low urinary pH and fluid restriction in these patients. It is unknown whether individuals consuming sufficient water on a ketogenic diet have any risk for this complication.>>

Interesting, thanks for that. So there is a risk of a complication from chronically high levels of urinary ketones after all, according to this. I'll ask Lex for his thoughts on this, and if anyone else has heard of it, please chime in.

<<From a practical standpoint, individuals with a genetic predisposition towards gout should either include a minimal amount of carbohydrates (5% of total calories) in their diet or not use a ketogenic diet.>>

I don't have experience with your sort of numbers, symptoms and history, Yuri, but that last quote does sound reasonable. It seems to fall in line with Tyler's experience in which he didn't do well on a strictly ZC diet and had to reintroduce some carbs like berries. If you feel you do better with some fruits or vitamin C in your diet, I wouldn't necessarily argue against it (though I would consider the cautions against fructose from Dr. Harris that I linked to below). I'm actually hoping to add some berries back into my diet at some point and recently I've was able to finish up a little raw honey I had left over in my cupboard without problems other than a little dental film that I took care to brush off. On the other hand, Dr. Harris and others recommend no fruit for gout patients (Harris generally recommends more fat instead--see the blog link below) and I don't know if some fruits would work or not for you. Plus, I'm not a doctor and wouldn't dare prescribe anything for you or anyone else, especially if you think you might have an eating disorder that complicates things further. Did your doctor recommend anything?

From the data it looks like antistreptolysin increased to an excessive level. Assuming that plasma appearance, thymol and B-lipoprotein were OK before (for some reason they're not listed in the earlier results, but presumably were negative), they apparently worsened also. Did your doctor explain any of this? Is he going to do any more tests other than the scan for kidney stones?

If you didn't get enough answers from your doctor, I suppose you could ask Dr. Harris at PaNu your questions, though he can't give you individual medical advice. I think he would be interested, given that he and other like-minded people have fingered fructose as the main causative factor in gout (which you did eat a lot of in the past, apparently). He has explained that while protein doesn't cause gout, it can trigger it once the underlying problems are already there lying beneath the surface, so to speak (see "Reader Comments - 283," http://www.paleonu.com/qa-and-testimonials/2009/6/27/questions-and-paleonutrition-testimonials-welcomeclick.html#comment4711781). He suggested in general that people can eat higher proportions of fat (like suet, which is several of us here eat) to avoid consuming excess levels of protein that can trigger gout attacks. Is the meat you're eating all grass-fed?

I also have never heard of a neutral pH of 7 on a ZC diet. Even the critics of ZC agree that it drives the pH down to acidic levels. That is puzzling, though not a lot of people do ZC, so it's hard to know how abnormal this is and it doesn't necessarily indicate a health problem.

It took Lex years to recover from his fasting debacle, so maybe time to heal is also a factor. I don't know for sure about that, but I do know that stressing about things, like possible future kidney stones, isn't going to help and I doubt that there is any perfect exact diet that cures everything. So while I would try something different if it were me (after getting my doctor's advice), given your recent problems on possibly high-protein ZC, I wouldn't agonize over details, seek dietary perfection, or expect miracles. That sort of thinking leads to stress and disappointment, I think. And remember to enjoy life as best you can, whatever comes.

Hope this helps rather than makes things worse--and remember that none of us here are experts so take it all with a grain of salt. This is a dietary forum, not a medical answers forum. So I wouldn't expect the latter here, though sharing experiences can sometimes lead people to investigate things or ask questions that eventually lead to answers. I know an IBS forum (and a doctor's advice) helped lead me to this way of eating that has so far done wonders for me, though it hasn't cured everything 100% and I don't expect it to.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on November 09, 2009, 05:33:40 am
I have been suferring from intense joint and lower back pain. Consumption of any high purine foods like herring or liver made it worse. Otherwise I seem to not have any gout-like inflammations.

If you have these gout deposits, they can instantly be dissolved (30 minutes ++) with EMC (Energized Mineral Concentrate) or Quantum Minerals Plus.  Apply it directly on the area where the deposits are.

When the deposits are dissolved, you will have pain relief.  You just need to concentrate on not making new gout deposits. ( this is where rpd comes in )

Those are Philippine products, there may be some equivalent in your country.  If you don't have an equivalent in your country I will send you some via fedex / dhl. ( Quantum is 700 pesos / bottle + shipping )

While waiting for the energy medicine minerals you can try apple cider vinegar in some water as you can see the remedy in earth clinic.

These gout remedies have been helpful with my family and friends, maybe it's your turn.

http://www.myhealthblog.org/2009/01/22/my-wife-has-gout-uric-acid-deposits-in-her-feet-and-knee-her-cure-protocol/
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: cherimoya_kid on November 09, 2009, 09:19:52 am
Cherries and cherry juice are an excellent folk remedy for gout.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on November 10, 2009, 09:13:03 pm
Stop this craziness, take my advice. People here are feeding this obsession i can spot it because i think the same. What you feel is real but diet is not the answer. Please don't waste your life with this crap. This is my last post. Get well.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 10, 2009, 10:15:30 pm
I’d like to shed the light of truth on this kidney stones scare because it is unnecessarily blowing out of proportion.

The uric acid kidney stones which have occasionally been found in epileptic children following the ketogenic diet appear to be related to high levels of urinary ketones, low urinary pH and fluid restriction. High levels of uric acid in the bloodstream can be caused by either an over-production of uric acid by the body or the under-elimination of uric acid by the kidneys. Also, the ingestion of foods high in purines (organ meats) can raise uric acid levels in the blood.

Lyle McDonald explains that the ketogenic diet has been shown to affect the rate of uric acid excretion through the kidneys. Ketones and uric acid compete for the same transport mechanism in the kidneys. Thus when the kidneys remove excess ketone bodies from the bloodstream, the removal of uric acid decreases and a buildup occurs.

In the most simplest terms in order to prevent the uric acid kidney stones it is necessary to either decrease the intake of high purine foods and avoid ketosis or wash out the ketones and uric acid by drinking gallons of ALKALINE water.

In a non-ketotic state, the brain utilizes roughly 100 grams of glucose per day. This doesn’t mean that any diet which contains less than 100 grams of carbohydrate per day will induce ketosis. We have to remember that ZC is not always a ketogenic diet. It is the fact that 58% of dietary protein and ten percent of the total fat grams ingested will appear in the bloodstream as glucose. So excessive protein intake will generate too much glucose, impairing or preventing ketosis.

Let’s have a look at Lex’s regimens as an example:
higher protein plan:
– protein: 150g
– fat: 180g
– glucose: 87 + 18 = 105g         
– condition: no ketosis
– result: low urinary ketones --> normal uric acid excretion --> no kidney stones.

lower protein plan:
– protein: 85g
– fat: 210g
– glucose: 49 + 21 = 70g         
– condition: most likely ketosis
– result: high urinary ketones --> reduced uric acid excretion --> kidney stones.

As I see it the low protein high fat carnivorous/ketogenic diet is unnatural. For instance, the Eskimos, who sometimes live almost entirely on a fat diet, do not develop ketosis. Adapting to a higher fat, higher protein diet will almost never produce ketosis.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 11, 2009, 06:49:01 am
I still suspect the protein more than the fat, and I suspect that the 5% of the ketogenic kids were probably also eating fairly high levels of protein, but I need to learn more before I draw any firm conclusions. Any evidence you have to support excess fat as the cause would be appreciated, Yuri.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on November 11, 2009, 10:51:03 am
Please correct me if I am wrong, but is not the ketogenic diet cooked? If it is, results are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: alphagruis on November 11, 2009, 08:08:18 pm
Please correct me if I am wrong, but is not the ketogenic diet cooked? If it is, results are irrelevant.

Yes, there is little doubt,  it's certainly cooked food and of questionable relevance anyway.

There are many causes of hyperuricemia that have been invoked. One of them is the lead poisoning.

http://www.articlesbase.com/diseases-and-conditions-articles/lead-poisoning-and-the-gout-connection-986975.html
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 11, 2009, 10:27:28 pm
Please correct me if I am wrong, but is not the ketogenic diet cooked? If it is, results are irrelevant.

Look at my lab results. My serum uric acid incresed threefold on RAW ZC diet. And what about my past RAW ZC kdney stones experience?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 11, 2009, 10:48:18 pm
I still suspect the protein more than the fat, and I suspect that the 5% of the ketogenic kids were probably also eating fairly high levels of protein, but I need to learn more before I draw any firm conclusions. Any evidence you have to support excess fat as the cause would be appreciated, Yuri.

The diet provides just enough protein for body growth and repair, and sufficient calories to maintain the correct weight for age and height. The classic ketogenic diet contains a 4:1 ratio by weight of fat to protein.

The ketogenic diet is a therapy for epilepsy. High levels of protein will disrupt ketosis. There is no logic in doing that.

I have never said that excess fat is the cause. I tried to explain how LOW protein is not always good because it induces ketosis with all possible adverse effects.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 11, 2009, 11:19:26 pm
Stop this craziness, take my advice. People here are feeding this obsession i can spot it because i think the same. What you feel is real but diet is not the answer. Please don't waste your life with this crap. This is my last post. Get well.

My friend, your contribution is highly appreciated. You are my senior advisor. Just go to the opening page of my Journal and see who was the very first person to respond here. You can't just leave me. I need your help.

Come on Andrew, as a true carnivoure we can get on swimmingly...  ;)

I promise I will close this Journal when the time comes.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 12, 2009, 09:27:41 am
The diet provides just enough protein for body growth and repair, and sufficient calories to maintain the correct weight for age and height. The classic ketogenic diet contains a 4:1 ratio by weight of fat to protein.
Ah yes, I stupidly forgot, thanks. Are there any theories on why cooked fats would contribute to uric acid stones or calcium oxalate stones? Do we know which type most of those ketogenic kids had?

Quote
I have never said that excess fat is the cause. I tried to explain how LOW protein is not always good because it induces ketosis with all possible adverse effects.
What are the other reported ill effects?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 13, 2009, 02:38:16 am
Ukrainian Lamb...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: livingthelife on November 13, 2009, 02:44:52 am
OMG, that is cool!  ;D   

Lamb is one meat that is difficult to get in my region, and is even limited in mail order.

You know, Yuri, I was wondering if you were ever able to try fresh sweetbreads (pancreas/thymus) from veal or lamb. I considered it for my exhaustion, which we had in common about the same time last year. But I was never able to obtain any.

Do you know these butchers well enough to get the cuts of meat you want?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 13, 2009, 03:51:40 am
What are the other reported ill effects?

Side Effects on the Ketogenic Diet: Identification and Treatment (http://www.epilepsy.com/epilepsy/keto_news_november07)

By Eric Kossoff, MD

History of the diet and its side effects

Perhaps one of the least discussed but most important of the changes in ketogenic diet research in the past decade has been the identification of its side effect profile. During the 1920s and 1930s, when the ketogenic diet was one of the most popular anticonvulsant therapies, side effects such as acidosis (low bicarbonate levels in the blood), constipation, and abnormal menstrual periods (in adult women) were discussed and were just starting to be investigated.

However, over the following 60 years, research into the ketogenic diet focused nearly exclusively on demonstrating that it worked in order to answer its critics, rather than researching side effects. All this has changed in the past decade, and now that the ketogenic diet is no longer perceived as an alternative treatment, as James Wheless, MD, titled his editorial in 2001, the ketogenic diet is a “medical therapy with side effects”, and researchers have agreed.(1) Although most of the side effects I will discuss are important to be observant for, and can be bothersome, it is rare to have to stop the diet because of them.

What are the side effects?

The most common, almost “expected”, side effects of the diet are constipation, acidosis (especially with illness), and decreased weight gain (not often weight loss). These are often addressed immediately when the diet is started, especially using Miralax™ for constipation. The less common side effects, generally occurring in 1 in 20 children, include high cholesterol, kidney stones, growth slowing, and gastrointestinal upset.

In 2001, Peter Kwiterovich, MD, reported in JAMA our experience at Johns Hopkins Hospital in regards to cholesterol of children on the diet.(2) In general, most children have a 30% increase in total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, and triglycerides. Fortunately, this increase happens within 3 months but usually doesn’t continue to increase (and in studies of children on the diet for over 6 years, may return to normal). Although we often recommend adding MCT oil (link to Keto News article), increasing the percentage of polyunsaturated fatty acids, and lowering the ketogenic diet ratio, these interventions have been looked at in only small numbers of patients. Many families are worried about the long-term effects of high cholesterol, but we suspect that the short periods of time that most children are on the diet do not impact later atherosclerosis.

Around the same time, in 2000, Susan Furth, MD, showed both that there is a 5% chance of kidney stones in children on the diet and that it was more likely to occur in those who had high amounts of calcium in their urine.(3) She suggested that using Polycitra K™ to make the urine less acidic and bind up calcium would help prevent stones. Just this year, Amitha Sampath, MD, from our group proved she was right: by using Polycitra K™ there was 3 times less risk of stones.(4) Since January 2006 at Hopkins, all children started on the diet are also started on Polycitra K™.

Growth is also slowed somewhat by being on the diet. Children tend to follow the growth curves, but mostly stay around the 5th percentile.(5) Children under age 2 years are at the most risk for growth disturbance, and therefore we tend to use lower ketogenic diet ratios (e.g. 3:1) in this age group to allow for more protein. In children on the diet for over 6 years, nearly all were at the 5th percentile. It is hard to argue that this is probably a minor problem for a child having hundreds of daily seizures, but it is worth monitoring to keep children as healthy and normal as possible.

Very recent information also suggests that bone density can be a problem while on the diet, similar to being on medications. Children appear to have lower bone mineral density, which can lead to an increased risk of bone fractures, especially in children on the diet for over 6 years.(6) Christina Bergqvist, MD, found that Vitamin D levels initially increase due to supplementation on the diet, and after several months they decline, and this may partially explain the problems with bone density.(7) Studies are underway using DEXA scans to monitor children on the diet.

The rare side effects

Over the past decade, several case reports have described unusual, but serious side effects possibly attributable to the ketogenic diet. They include inflammation of the pancreas, prolonged QT intervals in heart rhythms, enlargement and problems with the heart muscle, selenium deficiency, severe carnitine deficiency, and basal ganglia changes (a deep part of the brain). We do not know at this time the true incidence of these problems, but they appear to be very rare.

The Charlie Foundation and many ketogenic diet experts are interested in creating a web-based side effect registry for the diet, as already exists for anticonvulsant drugs by the Food and Drug Administration. Physicians would enter anonymous information about a side effect they think may be due to the diet, and then could find out if any other doctors have seen it, too (and then contact them for how they treated the side effect.)

We are clearly in an exciting time for the ketogenic diet, but as its use grows, the occurrence of side effects will also grow. The future is bright because physicians are trying not only to identify side effects, but prevent them from happening.

References

   1. Wheless JW. (2001). The ketogenic diet: an effective medical therapy with side effects. J Child Neurol 16, 633-635.
   2. Kwiterovich PO, Jr., Vining E P, Pyzik P, Skolasky R, Jr., Freeman JM. (2003). Effect of a high-fat ketogenic diet on plasma levels of lipids, lipoproteins, and apolipoproteins in children. JAMA 290, 912-920.
   3. Furth SL, Casey JC, Pyzik PL, Neu AM, Docimo SG, Vining EP, Freeman JM, Fivush B A. (2000). Risk factors for urolithiasis in children on the ketogenic diet. Pediatr Nephrol 15, 125-128.
   4. Sampath A, Kossoff EH, Furth SL, Pyzik PL, Vining EPG (2007). Kidney stones and the ketogenic diet: risk factors and prevention. J Child Neurol 22, 375-8.
   5. Vining EP, Pyzik P, McGrogan J, Hladky H, Anand A, Kriegler S, Freeman JM. (2002). Growth of children on the ketogenic diet. Dev Med Child Neurol 44, 796-802.
   6. Groesbeck DK, Bluml RM, Kossoff EH. (2006) Long-term use of the ketogenic diet. Dev Med Child Neurol 48, 978-81.
   7. Bergqvist AG, Schall JI, Stallings VA (2007). Vitamin D status in children with intractable epilepsy, and impact of the ketogenic diet. Epilepsia. 48, 66-71.

Submitted: 10/30/07
Reviewed by Steven C. Schachter, MD


All the above relates to the cooked Ketogenic Diet. My lab results show that I have hyperlipoproteinemia and increase in total cholesterol on a RAW ZC diet. Besides I have had a kidney stones episode in my last ZC attempt. Ultrasound has identified inflammation of the pancreas and I have the sensation that there is something just under my left ribs. Elevated serum uric acid levels are also alarming.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on November 13, 2009, 10:19:13 pm
My lab results show that I have hyperlipoproteinemia and increase in total cholesterol on a RAW ZC diet. Besides I have had a kidney stones episode in my last ZC attempt. Ultrasound has identified inflammation of the pancreas and I have the sensation that there is something just under my left ribs. Elevated serum uric acid levels are also alarming.

Mine also show hyperlipidemia : I have 3 times too much HDL and high VLDL. I believe we simply eat way too much fat (and possibly protein). And I sincerely don't know how to not eat too much fat and protein on a carnivorous diet, even on on one meal a day schedule!
Maybe less fat and more protein would prevent ketosis with all its consequences from a high acid load ?
I may try that...

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: cherimoya_kid on November 13, 2009, 10:46:13 pm
Since liver is so carb-rich, why not eat more liver?  That is, if your blood work on ZC or VLC isn't ideal.  At least, it might be worth trying.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 14, 2009, 12:07:01 am
Mine also show hyperlipidemia : I have 3 times too much HDL and high VLDL. I believe we simply eat way too much fat (and possibly protein).
I may try that...

Frédéric, it is all not so simple... I think that our excess of lipoproteins in the blood is due to a disorder of lipoprotein metabolism. It relates primarily to metabolic control, with limited impact from dietary factors. Treatment of hyperlipidemia should primarily be directed at improving metabolic control.

There are a number of different conditions which can raise lipoprotein levels. Hypothyroidism is associated with abnormal lipid levels. The thyroid hormone affects the rate of many chemical processes in the body, including the clearing of fats from the blood.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on November 14, 2009, 12:49:00 am
Frédéric, it is all not so simple... I think that our excess of lipoproteins in the blood is due to a disorder of lipoprotein metabolism. It relates primarily to metabolic control, with limited impact from dietary factors. Treatment of hyperlipidemia should primarily be directed at improving metabolic control.

There are a number of different conditions which can raise lipoprotein levels. Hypothyroidism is associated with abnormal lipid levels. The thyroid hormone affects the rate of many chemical processes in the body, including the clearing of fats from the blood.

Yuri,
How do you address hypothyroidism?
I though the right diet would cure any metabolic disorder...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 14, 2009, 01:38:27 am
Yuri,
How do you address hypothyroidism?

By eating raw ZC diet. This idea is absolutely mad given the common belief that low-carb induces hypothyroidism...

I though the right diet would cure any metabolic disorder...

There is nothing else to do but to hope that a carnivorous diet will balance hormones, correct underactive thyroid and boost metabolism...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: RawZi on November 14, 2009, 03:26:09 am
Hypothyroidism is associated with abnormal lipid levels. The thyroid hormone affects the rate of many chemical processes in the body, including the clearing of fats from the blood.

    I was diagnosed hypothyroid years before I started eating (R)AF's.  They thought my lipids should be high too.  They kept checking, but it never got high at all.  The lipids were never extremely low either.  Just noting.  A very good hospital did diagnose me, I was seen regularly, saw the endocrinologist and other specialities also during the same time all networked together.  Even so, I should say I believe it possible they did not fully understand thyroids.  
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: RawZi on November 14, 2009, 03:33:39 am
There is nothing else to do but to hope that a carnivorous diet will balance hormones, correct underactive thyroid and boost metabolism...

    In my experience it takes more than diet.  The way we think can have effect on us, types of exercise too.  Then I never tried zero carb.  That being said, all day yesterday I was ZC, and hope to try it more often, maybe all through the Winter, if trying it more and more seems good.  I should get my thyroid checked again by the doctors, it would be interesting to see any differences that show up in their tests.  I kind of hate the medical field though in the type of existance it is in right now.

    I hope you find much more healing soon!   
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: van on November 14, 2009, 04:52:01 am
  I think I just had a good idea, and that is for the group of us to find a 'doctor' who we could trust to run various blood tests on us, and to form some sort of baseline or general understanding for those who eat like us...  I have been trying to contact Ron Rosedale MD for some time. But I think he's out of the country for a while.  Would welcome any ideas?   
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 14, 2009, 05:30:38 am
It will be anything but simple given that we all live in different parts of the world and some of us may have financial limitations.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 14, 2009, 08:43:19 am
Mine also show hyperlipidemia : I have 3 times too much HDL and high VLDL. ...
Did you really mean "too much HDL" or something else, since HDL is generally regarded as the "healthy fat."

Would you care to share your numbers so I can understand what you mean?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on November 14, 2009, 11:39:55 am
  I think I just had a good idea, and that is for the group of us to find a 'doctor' who we could trust to run various blood tests on us, and to form some sort of baseline or general understanding for those who eat like us...  I have been trying to contact Ron Rosedale MD for some time. But I think he's out of the country for a while.  Would welcome any ideas?   

Mercola! He already eats raw meat.
He does love $ though, but then, what doc doesn't?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on November 14, 2009, 09:01:05 pm
Did you really mean "too much HDL" or something else, since HDL is generally regarded as the "healthy fat."

Would you care to share your numbers so I can understand what you mean?

sorry : I mean too much LDL (not HDL).

Look at : http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/journal-of-a-carnivore/msg16044/#msg16044



Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on November 14, 2009, 09:12:11 pm
By eating raw ZC diet. This idea is absolutely mad given the common belief that low-carb induces hypothyroidism...

There is nothing else to do but to hope that a carnivorous diet will balance hormones, correct underactive thyroid and boost metabolism...

You seem to have an unlimited trust in ZC diet.

After nearly one year on a carnivorous diet, I don't believe that my numerous symptoms (high pulse, arrhythmia, inflammation, sensitive teeth, blurred vision, etc.) and my hyperlipidemia will ever cure on this diet. This diet has done nothing to improve my severe digestive problems : I still can't eat one fruit or one vegetable without having gas and abdominal pain like before. My blood analyses are worse than when I was omnivore. I am really disappointed. Of course, I enjoy some improvement in my health : less gas, less abdominal pain, better energy, etc. But I suffer clearly from an excess of fat and protein, and this can have very serious consequences on my health.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on November 14, 2009, 10:19:11 pm
By eating raw ZC diet. This idea is absolutely mad given the common belief that low-carb induces hypothyroidism...

There is nothing else to do but to hope that a carnivorous diet will balance hormones, correct underactive thyroid and boost metabolism...

Yuri,  I highly suggest you read Dr. Henry Bieler on what he has to say about thyroids.

http://www.eczemacure.info/blog/2009/08/04/dr-henry-bieler-the-endocrine-glands-are-the-3rd-line-of-defense-against-disease/

Plus I do not understand why you continue with zero carb when you feel it is not working for you.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on November 14, 2009, 11:55:58 pm
sorry : I mean too much LDL (not HDL).

Look at : http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/journal-of-a-carnivore/msg16044/#msg16044

FBG = 0.96 g/l (0.74-1.06) That seems high to me (though your A1C is lower than Lex's). Lex reported that his BG dropped 15 points by eat more fats, but I don't know whether he meant FBG or random BG
A1C = 5.5% (<6%) seems a little on the high side, but within range
Urea = 0.52 g/l (0.17-0.43) higher than range, but that may be normal for a carnivorous diet, as GS suggested. I did find this: "If possible, the patient should avoid eating a diet high in meat or other protein before having a blood urea nitrogen (BUN) test." http://www.doctorslounge.com/nephrology/labs/urea.htm But presumably your fasting before the test should have avoided that skewing. Dehydration is apparently the most common cause, and it can also indicate kidney problems. Many people report being less thirsty on a RAF diet, so it seems to be important to drink plenty of water (and perhaps mineral-rich water).
Total cholesterol = 4.31 g/l (<2) Higher than range, but may be normal for a carnivorous diet, I don't know. I've seen healthy ZCers report very high TC, but this does seem higher than avg even for ZC.
HDL = 0.65 g/l (>0.4) Good, though I'm surprised it's not a bit better after a year of raw carnivore
Triglycerids = 1.47 g/l (<1.5) Way too high. I'm surprised at this number.
LDL = 3.37 g/l (0.9-1.6) I've seen multiple ZCers report high LDL like this and it could actually be a good sign suggesting that you have more of the benign, large, fluffy LDL.
VLDL = 0.29 g/l (0.05-0.25) This seems high and concerning to me, however
Vitamin B9 (folic acid) = 2.94 (>5.38) Folate deficiency is common from plant-heavy diets--especially grain and fruit-based. Did you eat a plant-heavy diet in the past?

Fasting blood glucose is pretty high, like my A1C and my urea is too high.Yes, do you have one of those free BG devices that you can use to see what foods spike your BG? Are you drinking plenty of water?
LDL is very high and VLDL is a bit too high. -- I'm more concerned about the VLDL, which is a better predictor of heart disease than LDL (I've seen studies that found LDL to be no predictor at all); VLDL is most strongly linked to high-glycemic-load carbohydrates
Triglycerids could be lower. - Yes, mine dropped from 210 to 67 within 3 months of giving up gluten. For some reason you are not responding nearly as well as I did. Some possible causes are hypothyroidism, kidney dysfunction, high calories, alcohol, certain medicines.

I believe I still eat too much fat, as my pulse raises to 90 after eating, and I have some unpleasant symptoms. - I think Lex may have reported that phemenon also. Have you asked him about it?

You've reported eating these foods:
seafood (oysters, shrimp, tourteau crabs, while waiting for the scallop in october), wild fish directly from the fisherman. - You said you did well on these, so it sounds like seafood should be one of your staple foods if you can afford it.
some organic cider - I'm guessing this was a rare occurrence
Raw butter is also very tasty here - Are you consuming dairy products regularly? I don't want to start a dairy debate, but Tyler and I have both noticed that many VLCers and ZCers who continue to have health problems are regular consumers of some dairy products. Is this just coincidence, or could it be related? Lex and I don't consume much dairy and while our health is not perfect, we seem to have experienced more improvements than you. Again, is this just coincidence, or is there a relationship?

High pulse, arrhythmia, inflammation, sensitive teeth, blurred vision, "worse" hyperlipidemia, "severe digestive problems" ("still can't eat one fruit or one vegetable without having gas and abdominal pain like before").


High pulse, arrhythmia, inflammation, sensitive teeth, blurred vision, hyperlipidemia, digestive problems and high triglycerides are all associated with high-carb diets. Why you would be experiencing it on a raw carnivore diet with only occasional cider, I don't know. Could you list all the foods you regularly eat, including beverages, and any supplements/foodlements you take? Have you done any investigating yourself to figure out this puzzle? Have you looked into what nutritional and systemic deficiencies can contribute to these symptoms?

Some improvement: less gas, less abdominal pain, better energy - Yes, many VLC/ZC/carnivores report that
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on November 15, 2009, 12:17:56 am
FBG = 0.96 g/l (0.74-1.06) That seems high to me (though your A1C is lower than Lex's). Lex reported that his BG dropped 15 points by eat more fats, but I don't know whether he meant FBG or random BG
A1C = 5.5% (<6%) seems a little on the high side, but within range
Urea = 0.52 g/l (0.17-0.43) higher than range, but that may be normal for a carnivorous diet, as GS suggested. I did find this: "If possible, the patient should avoid eating a diet high in meat or other protein before having a blood urea nitrogen (BUN) test." http://www.doctorslounge.com/nephrology/labs/urea.htm But presumably your fasting before the test should have avoided that skewing. Dehydration is apparently the most common cause, and it can also indicate kidney problems. Many people report being less thirsty on a RAF diet, so it seems to be important to drink plenty of water (and perhaps mineral-rich water).
Total cholesterol = 4.31 g/l (<2) Higher than range, but may be normal for a carnivorous diet, I don't know. I've seen healthy ZCers report very high TC, but this does seem higher than avg even for ZC.
HDL = 0.65 g/l (>0.4) Good, though I'm surprised it's not a bit better after a year of raw carnivore
Triglycerids = 1.47 g/l (<1.5) Way too high. I'm surprised at this number.
LDL = 3.37 g/l (0.9-1.6) I've seen multiple ZCers report high LDL like this and it could actually be a good sign suggesting that you have more of the benign, large, fluffy LDL.
VLDL = 0.29 g/l (0.05-0.25) This seems high and concerning to me, however
Vitamin B9 (folic acid) = 2.94 (>5.38) Folate deficiency is common from plant-heavy diets--especially grain and fruit-based. Did you eat a plant-heavy diet in the past?

Fasting blood glucose is pretty high, like my A1C and my urea is too high.Yes, do you have one of those free BG devices that you can use to see what foods spike your BG? Are you drinking plenty of water?
LDL is very high and VLDL is a bit too high. -- I'm more concerned about the VLDL, which is a better predictor of heart disease than LDL (I've seen studies that found LDL to be no predictor at all); VLDL is most strongly linked to high-glycemic-load carbohydrates
Triglycerids could be lower. - Yes, mine dropped from 210 to 67 within 3 months of giving up gluten. For some reason you are not responding nearly as well as I did. Some possible causes are hypothyroidism, kidney dysfunction, high calories, alcohol, certain medicines.

I believe I still eat too much fat, as my pulse raises to 90 after eating, and I have some unpleasant symptoms. - I think Lex may have reported that phemenon also. Have you asked him about it?

You've reported eating these foods:
seafood (oysters, shrimp, tourteau crabs, while waiting for the scallop in october), wild fish directly from the fisherman. - You said you did well on these, so it sounds like seafood should be one of your staple foods if you can afford it.
some organic cider - I'm guessing this was a rare occurrence
Raw butter is also very tasty here - Are you consuming dairy products regularly? I don't want to start a dairy debate, but Tyler and I have both noticed that many VLCers and ZCers who continue to have health problems are regular consumers of some dairy products. Is this just coincidence, or could it be related? Lex and I don't consume much dairy and while our health is not perfect, we seem to have experienced more improvements than you. Again, is this just coincidence, or is there a relationship?

High pulse, arrhythmia, inflammation, sensitive teeth, blurred vision, "worse" hyperlipidemia, "severe digestive problems" ("still can't eat one fruit or one vegetable without having gas and abdominal pain like before").


High pulse, arrhythmia, inflammation, sensitive teeth, blurred vision, hyperlipidemia, digestive problems and high triglycerides are all associated with high-carb diets. Why you would be experiencing it on a raw carnivore diet with only occasional cider, I don't know. Could you list all the foods you regularly eat, including beverages, and any supplements/foodlements you take? Have you done any investigating yourself to figure out this puzzle? Have you looked into what nutritional and systemic deficiencies can contribute to these symptoms?

Some improvement: less gas, less abdominal pain, better energy - Yes, many VLC/ZC/carnivores report that

I answer on my journal Paleophil...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 16, 2009, 09:33:10 pm

Plus I do not understand why you continue with zero carb when you feel it is not working for you.

The explanation is fairly simple. Because it seems to be giving me less pain than any other approach.

Pacquiao is more than good, he's incredible. The brilliant and engaging Filipino is a true warrior.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on November 19, 2009, 02:19:55 pm
Yuri i think this diet has done more harm than good for you. Therefore you should try something else. I read that you as a child were eating eggs and milk. Try that, dairy products and eggs as your bread and butter and meat on the side just like i do. People are naive to think that they can duplicate the inuits excellent health by eating entirely different animals, you know what i mean? Suet as fat will not keep you warm enough in alaska, only seal fat will-which is what the inuits relyed on. You must use your insticnts regarding what to eat . Yuri, in the beggining of this diet/primal diet did you eat the things that you wanted or did you just eat thinking that your health would improve?, by that i mean eating what you feel like, if you dont eat what you feel like then one might do harm to ones body. You as person growing up said you ate very little meat, therefore you are not used to eating so much meat. I also think what made your health problems might be the fact that all your meat was grain fed. Anyways, I eat what my body tells me, Mostly dairy and eggs and a little meat or fish on the side. I would argue that wild fish is more nutricious than grain fed meat and organs. Maybe try eating just fish. I would hate to eat only meat thats why i dont do it, if i feel like eating vegetables then i eat it, if i feel like eating some fish then i eat it, as simple as that. Weston price said that the isolated swiss got lots of their calories from dairy products, and so do i and feel good, but with mostly meat i feel bad. I get lots of energy from whipped cream,. So just eat what you want to as long as it's raw i would recommend. But if not, then another option is going back to your traditional diet of grain and tubers etc.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on November 19, 2009, 02:34:30 pm
The problem is that people begin a ceratin diet say, "raw vegan", "vegan", or vegetarian, or whatever it may be, and thinking that it may help them, but the people eating the foods dont like it and dont feel good as before their diet began but yet they still stubbornly go on and on and on until they suffer even more. If you dont like it, then dont do it people. For some this diet may work, but for others no. The inuit and native american indians have eaten entirely different animals than what you guys are normally eating(domesticated animals), so it is not proper to say that one is eating like an eskimoe or paleo, or native american. If i were to eat just beef and chicken and domesticated animals without dairy i would firstly hate it, and secondly my body would dislike it, but yet there are some people on this forum it seems that are stubborn and put to much trust on what others say about this diet and what to eat  rather than letting their own body's tell them whats right.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on November 19, 2009, 06:04:04 pm
Actually, many rawpalaeos, myself included, have a large proportion of their diet consisting of raw wild game, much in line with original palaeo diets. And raw grassfed meat, while perhaps not as ideal as wild game, is still very effective re health.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on November 19, 2009, 09:55:02 pm
People are naive to think that they can duplicate the inuits excellent health by eating entirely different animals, you know what i mean? Suet as fat will not keep you warm enough in alaska, only seal fat will-which is what the inuits relied on. You must use your insticnts regarding what to eat .

We have not spent enough time discussing fat.
There really should be a section of this site devoted to it.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: livingthelife on November 20, 2009, 09:35:11 pm
We have not spent enough time discussing fat.
There really should be a section of this site devoted to it.

Very good idea. It's been by far the most important aspect of the change I've made in my attitude and diet, and I still feel I have a lot to learn on the subject.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on November 20, 2009, 09:46:44 pm
Yuri,

What's the real score from your point of view regarding the flu scare / epidemic in the Ukraine?

Now they have unconfirmed reports of http://www.prisonplanet.com/unconfirmed-reports-of-large-numbers-of-deaths-from-the-vaccine-in-the-ukraine.html

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 21, 2009, 12:58:25 am
Yuri i think this diet has done more harm than good for you. Therefore you should try something else. I read that you as a child were eating eggs and milk. Try that, dairy products and eggs as your bread and butter and meat on the side just like i do. People are naive to think that they can duplicate the inuits excellent health by eating entirely different animals, you know what i mean? Suet as fat will not keep you warm enough in alaska, only seal fat will-which is what the inuits relyed on. You must use your insticnts regarding what to eat . Yuri, in the beggining of this diet/primal diet did you eat the things that you wanted or did you just eat thinking that your health would improve?, by that i mean eating what you feel like, if you dont eat what you feel like then one might do harm to ones body. You as person growing up said you ate very little meat, therefore you are not used to eating so much meat. I also think what made your health problems might be the fact that all your meat was grain fed. Anyways, I eat what my body tells me, Mostly dairy and eggs and a little meat or fish on the side. I would argue that wild fish is more nutricious than grain fed meat and organs. Maybe try eating just fish. I would hate to eat only meat thats why i dont do it, if i feel like eating vegetables then i eat it, if i feel like eating some fish then i eat it, as simple as that. Weston price said that the isolated swiss got lots of their calories from dairy products, and so do i and feel good, but with mostly meat i feel bad. I get lots of energy from whipped cream,. So just eat what you want to as long as it's raw i would recommend. But if not, then another option is going back to your traditional diet of grain and tubers etc.


I know it for a fact that it was the DIETING and by no means the DIET that has ruined my health. In my case the adverse consequences of intermittent fasting by far exceeded the limitations of high fruit vegan nutrition. Unfortunately my body perceived intermittent fasting as a starvation and my mind has never switched back.

I have to admit that non-organic meats (especially marrow) could have been the other likely cause. There were no ways to verify the quality of meats. Hence there is a strong possibility that I might have been exposed to certain toxins. Now the situation has changed dramatically and since September I have been eating nothing but 100% grass-fed organic lamb or wild ocean fish.

I wish there was something dietary-wise that I hadn’t tried yet. Therefore it is quite within reason to suggest that some cases require more than just a balanced diet. And yes I mean hormone replacement therapy.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 21, 2009, 02:23:46 am
Yuri,

What's the real score from your point of view regarding the flu scare / epidemic in the Ukraine?

Now they have unconfirmed reports of http://www.prisonplanet.com/unconfirmed-reports-of-large-numbers-of-deaths-from-the-vaccine-in-the-ukraine.html



Hey Edwin,

This swine flu scare is deliberately exaggerated. Those several confirmed cases were mainly used for pre-election political machinations. None of my SENSIBLE mates wore the protective masks. However there were plenty of “ninja” in the streets even in Kiev. As of now the tide of enthusiasm waned and the epidemic is rapidly subsiding. You can read more about Ukrainian election geopolitics (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16129)and swine flu.

There are suspicions that swine flu virus has mutated in Ukraine because it has shown unprecedented symptoms. One friend of mine told me that his close relative who works as anatomical pathologist witnessed numerous cases of black burnt lungs.

Personally I can’t care less about it. On the one hand I am confident that unless vaccinated this flu can’t be transferred. On the other I would readily accept death at this point of my life because it is utterly torturing and absolutely unbearable. So even the most ugly situation might have its positives ;)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on November 21, 2009, 07:06:35 am
Have you tried Bieler's soup?
Zuchini, string beans, parsely?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on November 24, 2009, 08:34:19 pm
I might have bored you all stiff with my reiterant complaints about adrenal fatigue. It is fairly evident from the whole set of characteristic symptoms  (http://selfadjustingtechnique.com/30-symptoms-of-adrenal-fatigue/)alone. But despite my absolute conviction theory without practice is useless.

Testing for Adrenal Fatigue

Self-Test Methods

Signs and Symptoms (http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-symptoms-matrix)
The more severe the problem the greater the number of symptoms will be present.

Orthostatic Blood Pressure
Ragland's sign is an abnormal drop in systolic blood pressure (the top number) when a person arises from a lying to a standing position. There should be a rise of 8-10 mm. in the systolic (top) number. A drop or failure to rise indicates adrenal fatigue.

Pupil Dilation Test
Another way to test for adrenal dysfunction is the pupil dilation exam. To perform this on yourself, you’ll need a flashlight and a mirror. Face the mirror, and shine the light in one eye. If after 30 seconds the pupil (black center) starts to dilate (enlarge), adrenal deficiency should be suspected.

Rogoff’s Sign
Rogoff’s sign is a definite tenderness in the lower thoracic (mid-back) spine where the ribs attach.

Facial Pallor (http://www.drrind.com/therapies/facial-pallor)
The colors of the face often correspond to the level of adrenal function. There are some areas that tend to stay pink, such as the center of the cheeks or chin.  Other areas tend to become pale if the body weakens, goes into shock, fainting, or has poor adrenal function. The area around the mouth is one of the first places for this to occur (peri-oral pallor) and the pattern turns out to be a reliable indicator of adrenal function. In general, I find that my healthiest patients (e.g., athlete, sprained the ankle playing tennis) tend to have a full facial color and that the entire upper lip is a healthy pink. Those with chronic illness, fatigue or known adrenal problems tend to have a pale upper and lower lip. Those in between have partial pallor (or partial pink).

Metabolic Temperature Graph (http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph)
Temperatures reflect an individual’s metabolic energy state. The average daytime temperature of a healthy individual is 98.6 thus making 98.6 the optimal (as opposed to normal) temperature. Lower than optimal temperatures reflect a lower than optimal metabolic state which is usually controlled by the thyroid mechanism. Wide variability of temperature reflects an unstable or fatigued adrenal system.

Wide variability in daily temperatures indicates a weak adrenal function since the adrenal glands help the body maintain stability. Good adrenal function produces a stable temperature. As adrenal function improves, the temperature variability decreases and vice versa. As adrenals get stressed (either from emotional stress, excess metabolic stimulation such as excessive thyroid stimulation, or for other reasons), the variability increases.
In a hypothyroid state, the day-to-day averages are low and very stable. In a hypoadrenal state including adrenal exhaustion or adrenal stress, the temperatures are low and unstable - one day they may average 96 degrees and one to two degrees higher the next day.

I have failed each of the above.

Diurnal Cortisol (Saliva)
24 hour adrenal saliva test is probably the most conclusive evaluation of the adrenal functioning which checks cortisol levels during the day and allows to view the daily cyclic adrenal function.

24-hour urinary free cortisol
Urinary free cortisol (UFC) represents excretion of the circulating, biologically active, free cortisol. UFC is a sensitive test for the various types of adrenocortical dysfunction. Abnormal changes in cortisol levels may be due to hypothalamic, pituitary, or adrenal dysfunction.

To dispel any remaining doubts I measured my 24-hour urinary cortisol. The result was weakly positive. My urinary cortisol excretion is extremely low at just 5% above the bottom range. Urinary-free cortisol concentrations decrease with Addison disease, exogenous Cushing syndrome, pituitary insufficiency, and deficient hypothalamic secretion of corticotropin-releasing hormone.

What comes next? An adrenal crisis?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on November 26, 2009, 05:03:25 am
Adrenal crisis is explained by Dr. Henry Bieler here:
http://www.curemanual.com/blog/2009/08/dr-henry-bieler-the-endocrine-glands-are-the-3rd-line-of-defense-against-disease/
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on December 03, 2009, 02:40:12 am
A couple of days ago I had abdominal ultrasound. It was a detailed evaluation of my liver, gallbladder, spleen, pancreas and kidneys. It appears that I have cholecystitis and kidney stones (about 4 mm in size in both kidneys).

Cholecystitis is an inflammation of the gallbladder. In many cases, cholecystitis is caused by gallstones that block the tube leading out of the gallbladder. This results in a buildup of bile that can cause inflammation. Other causes of cholecystitis include infection, injury and tumors. The doc didn’t say that I have gallstones so I presume it is caused by infection. I have been diagnosed with cholecystitis for the first time when I did abdominal ultrasound in April. Nothing has changed since then.

In presence of cholecystitis, a blood test may reveal that white blood cell count is higher than normal, which may indicate an infection. Blood tests may also show high levels of bilirubin (an orange-yellow pigment that's released into bile and stored in gallbladder), alkaline phosphatase (an enzyme found in high concentrations in liver and bile ducts) and serum aninotransferase (liver enzymes). It is interesting because I have normal readings of the above tests. Moreover I have none of the signs or symptoms of cholecystitis. The doc who was examining me couldn’t believe that I don’t have any pain in bladder area.

Kidney stones is another major ZC concern. The chance of a ureteral stone passing is proportional to the width of the stone. For stones less than 3 mm in width, the chance of spontaneous stone passage is very high. For anyone who has suffered the pain of a kidney stone, the thought of passing a second stone is not appealing.

Hydration has remained the mainstay of any treatment program aimed at preventing kidney stones. Stones form by the crystallization of one or more substances which exist in high concentrations in the urine. Increased fluid intake will decrease the chance of stone formation by maintaining a high urinary output and by decreasing the likelihood that these substances will crystallize by diluting them. There are no strict recommendations with regards to the number of glasses of fluid to drink, however, the goal should be to achieve a urine output of greater than two liters per day. Stones that are less than 5 millimeters in size have a high chance (90%) of passing through the urinary tract spontaneously with hydration therapy alone. Larger stones (>6 millimeters) have a much lower chance of passing on their own, and often need surgical intervention.

More practical methods of kidney stones prevention are described in the following article:

Uric Acid Stones Natural Treatment (http://www.healthnutrx.com/pdf/Uric_Acid_Stones_Natural_Treatment.pdf)
“The most important risk factor for uric acid crystallization and stone formation is a low urinary pH (below 5.5) rather than high urinary uric acid excretion. By controlling urinary pH, uric acid stone disease can be prevented, this being one of the few urinary tract stones that can be successfully dissolved in vivo. Citrate and/or bicarbonate can be consumed to maintain urine pH values between 6.2 and 6.5. Urine pH should not go above 6.5 as this will increase the risk of hydroxyapatite kidney stones.”

Watch out and take the necessary steps if needed!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 03, 2009, 07:24:54 am
Good to hear that you've learned more about the factors in your health issues, Yuri.

I wish Lex might have been lucky enough to be able to do a lithotripsy and get a stone sample so we knew whether his stones were uric acid stones or calcium oxalate, as his and my pH are very low, but that's life. I'm not panicking or anything. For the time being I'm assuming that increasing my fluid intake some is sufficient to prevent problems, and my health has been good. I do plan on ordering some multistix at some point.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: mentisafer on December 05, 2009, 07:39:17 am
Yuri,
Ancient Chinese medicine believes adrenal are drained from energy with orgasm (semen loss); not advocating celibacy as a religious belief, but have you tried sexual abstinence? If you try, make an effort not to think about sex, just avoid arousal and the semen will help heal the body. That's my two cents, take it or leave it.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: cherimoya_kid on December 05, 2009, 12:21:47 pm
Yuri,
Ancient Chinese medicine believes adrenal are drained from energy with orgasm (semen loss); not advocating celibacy as a religious belief, but have you tried sexual abstinence? If you try, make an effort not to think about sex, just avoid arousal and the semen will help heal the body. That's my two cents, take it or leave it.

It's easy to cause prostate problems and other issues by doing this.  I know a number of people who have hurt their health by completely avoiding ejaculating for years.  I know others who have not had any health problems from it, either, so it's not always a bad thing...but it's important to realize that it has its risks.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on December 06, 2009, 06:18:19 am
From the article that Yuri cited:

"Summary:
• Drink 2 quarts of water a day. Consider mineral water as part of this fluid consumption.
• Consume moderate animal protein, seafood and alcohol.
• Increase fruit and vegetable consumption.
• Do not consume drinks sweetened with fructose. Unsweetened orange juice is encouraged.
• Do not drink cranberry juice.
• Take magnesium (citrate) 200mg 1-3 times daily with food.
• Maintain urine pH from 6.2 to 6.5. Test urine pH at 10 a.m. 2 p.m. and bedtime. Adjust food, mineral water,
water and mineral supplements accordingly."

I've been doing some research. Here is a summary of my findings (I can supply references if anyone is curious where I got any of this info):

Factors associated with increased incidence of kidney stones:
Low water intake
High omega 6 intake and low omega 3 intake
High arachidonic/linoleic acid ratio
High intake of poorly-absorbed calcium, such as from cheap calcium supplements and dairy products
Hypercalcuria (high urinary calcium levels)—possibly in part due to the high-dairy intake of many
Urinary magnesium/calcium ratio lower than 0.7
Hyperoxaluria (high urinary oxalate levels)
Diet high in animal protein, poorly-absorbed calcium (dairy products, some calcium-enriched processed foods), oxalate (colas, chocolate, legumes like peanuts and soybeans, nuts, beets, coffee, cola, rhubarb, spinach, black tea, phytate-rich whole grains—especially wheat bran, beer, ale), and purines (poultry, seafood, organ meats, red wine, stouts)
High intake of vitamin C supplements
Urine with a pH below 6.0 in combination with high urinary uric acid or above 7.2 in combination with high urinary phosphate
Ketogenic diet—dairy products, oils (e.g. canola, olive, and MCTs like coconut), meats (bacon, beef, etc.), seafood, eggs, peanut butter, keto yogurt, some limited fruits (like apples) and sugar-free desserts like Jello and keto custard (http://www.jhu.edu/jhumag/495web/fat.html, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet)—other risk factors from this diet include dehydration (which could account for part of the kidney stone risk) and gall stones
Low urinary citrate

Factors associated with low incidence of kidney stones:
High water intake, especially mineral water containing magnesium
Low omega 6 intake and high omega 3 intake
Low arachidonic/linoleic acid ratio
Urinary magnesium/calcium ratio higher than 0.7
Oral magnesium supplementation
Low intake of animal protein, poorly-absorbed calcium, and oxalate
Urine pH between 6.0 or 6.2 and 6.5
High urinary citrate

Based on this, I’m thinking of keeping my intake of water (mostly mineral water containing magnesium), magnesium, and omega 3 fats relatively high while keeping omega 6 fats low and continuing to avoid dairy products, grains, legumes, red wine and beers/ales/stouts.

I'm guessing that the traditional Inuits had urinary pH's below 6.0, whereas they reportedly had low rates of kidney stones, so I don't think it's absolutely necessary to get it within the 6.2 to 6.5 level, though that may be a benefit.

Note about the ketogenic diet: it includes dairy products, which is a risk factor for calcium oxalate/phosphate stones and there was also above-average dehydration among the 5% of dieters who developed kidney stones.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on December 08, 2009, 01:44:37 am
My desperate attempts to treat the alleged adrenal insufficiency have been unsuccessful so far. It remained an enigma to me why my adrenals continued to underperform on various modifications of healing raw paleo diet. I couldn’t find the underlying cause of the problem until now when I have been provided with the rational explanation. It seems that all this time I have been only partially right in all my suspicions.

Symptoms are the most accurate marker of person’s state of health. And in my case all sings were pointing with a high precision to mixed adrenal/thyroid issues. The below explanation gives the full picture of the situation at hand.

The adrenal glands normally produce three classes of steroid hormones: glucocorticoids, mineralocorticoids, and androgens. Adrenal insufficiency (http://www.uptodate.com/patients/content/topic.do?topicKey=~_1_F7Z5OIDxZSF) occurs when the adrenal glands produce an insufficient amount of one or more of these classes of hormones. 

Cortisol levels are normally regulated by the hypothalamus and pituitary gland. The hypothalamus sends corticotropin releasing hormone (CRH) to the pituitary gland. The pituitary gland responds by producing several hormones, one of which is ACTH (adrenocorticotropin hormone). ACTH stimulates the adrenal gland to produce cortisol. Cortisol levels help to control the pituitary's production of ACTH.

Primary adrenal insufficiency, also known as Addison's disease, occurs when the adrenal glands cannot produce an adequate amount of hormones despite a normal or increased ACTH level. In secondary adrenal insufficiency, an insufficient amount of ACTH is produced by the pituitary gland. In tertiary adrenal insufficiency, an insufficient amount of CRH is produced by the hypothalamus.

Most patients with Addison's disease (primary) experience fatigue, generalized weakness, loss of appetite and weight loss. The other common symptoms include:
    * Darkening of the skin
    * Gastrointestinal symptoms such as nausea and vomiting
    * Low blood pressure with lightheadedness after standing or sitting up
    * Muscle and joint pain
    * Decreased sexual desire
The symptoms of secondary and tertiary adrenal insufficiency are similar to those of primary insufficiency, with a few exceptions:
    * Darkening of the skin and dehydration do not occur (stupid doctor told me that I can’t have adrenal insufficiency because there is no darkening of the skin)
    * Gastrointestinal symptoms are less common
    * Symptoms of hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) are more common, including sweating, anxiety, shaking, nausea, or heart palpitations.

Hypothalamus = Homeostasis (http://thalamus.wustl.edu/course/hypoANS.html)
The hypothalamus is one of the most important parts of the brain, involved in many kinds of motivation, among other functions.  It controls the "Four F's (http://endoflifecare.tripod.com/juvenilehuntingtonsdisease/id273.html)": 1. fighting; 2. fleeing; 3. feeding; and 4. mating. The hypothalamus is involved in the regulation of body temperature, water balance, blood sugar, and fat metabolism. It also regulates other glands such as the ovaries, parathyroids, and thyroid. It known to be involved in the expression of emotions, almost all aspects of behaviour, including feeding, thirst, sleeping, metabolism,  preservation of individual, pleasant/unpleasant sensations and movement. It is thought to be involved in the expression of emotions, such as fear and rage, and in sexual behaviors. It also controls appetite and regulates sleep. Ultimately the hypothalamus can control every endocrine gland in the body, and alter blood pressure (through vasopressin and vasoconstriction), body temperature, metabolism (through TSH), and adrenaline levels (through ACTH). The pituitary gland may be king, but the power behind the throne is clearly the hypothalamus. All information that enters the brain must pass through the hypothalamus.

The main function of the hypothalamus is homeostasis, or maintaining the body's status quo. Factors such as blood pressure, body temperature, fluid and electrolyte balance, and, body weight, are held to a precise value called the set-point. Although this set-point can migrate over time, from day to day it is remarkably fixed. Intermittent fasting/dieting has tilted the balance…

It begs the question how to fix that… I haven't the least clue so far…

However, while there is time, there is still hope – & I will not be throwing in the towel just yet!
Title: how about hot water?
Post by: rafonly on December 15, 2009, 04:05:52 am

you may want to try hot water esp. 1st thing in the am -- neither boiled or scalding, though
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Neone on December 15, 2009, 04:10:58 am
Have you ever sustained a head injury or been in something like a car accident, yuri?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on December 30, 2009, 12:22:51 pm
yuri i was wondering ,like you said that your health problems only began once you began alternative day fasting? so everything was good except at that point, i was thinking that maybe you ate something extremely toxic such as diseased kidneys where that gave you gut/stomach pains and maybe thats when your health problems started...

iv experienced gut pains with eating kidneys but no problem with liver and meat.....think back to the time when your problems started and maybe you will remember a moment when you ate some food that gave you stomach pains or maybe you began eating organs at that time period....its just so puzziling why everything would be allright for 4 months for you on the primal diet and then all of a sudden problems arise from alternative day fasting.
Title: Re: how about hot water?
Post by: rawlion on January 01, 2010, 04:17:37 am

you may want to try hot water esp. 1st thing in the am -- neither boiled or scalding, though

Thanks for the tip. I have heard it is good for the hypothalamus disorder.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on January 01, 2010, 05:30:20 am
yuri i was wondering ,like you said that your health problems only began once you began alternative day fasting? so everything was good except at that point, i was thinking that maybe you ate something extremely toxic such as diseased kidneys where that gave you gut/stomach pains and maybe thats when your health problems started...

iv experienced gut pains with eating kidneys but no problem with liver and meat.....think back to the time when your problems started and maybe you will remember a moment when you ate some food that gave you stomach pains or maybe you began eating organs at that time period....its just so puzziling why everything would be allright for 4 months for you on the primal diet and then all of a sudden problems arise from alternative day fasting.

Your guess seems entirely reasonable to me. I have been thinking about it over and over again. It is true that I was taking a big risk with the kind of meats that I was eating. But so did 46 millions of Ukrainians except for the small amount of vegans/vegetarians. I clearly remember my breaking point. The only change that I did back then was elimination of dairy and introduction of intermitting fasting. Moreover now I know 5 other folks or so in the US who messed their endocrine system either via dieting or infrequent eating.

It wasn’t just good at that point, it was really PERFECT! I have a strong recollection of that period. It was a week in 2007, June 2-nd through 10-th, probably the healthiest week in my entire life. On those two weekends I was playing soccer with my mates. They looked static as compared to me. I was running and flying. My stamina and energy were really superb. I had an unbelievable level of physique. Also I have to mention that four-six weeks prior to that I had been feeling fantastic as well. Then a sudden and dramatic reversal occurred…

Here is an excerpt from my letter to a friend of mine:
“As I've already mentioned I was planning to start weight-loss plan. Last Monday was my first day in four months on the Primal Diet when I was able to not overload myself with raw food. I worked out for myself convenient regimen to effectively lose excess weight. I usually start eating at 6 p.m. and four hours onwards and consume moderate amounts of raw beef with practically no fat at all. Before I go to bed I may drink a cup of raw milk or self-made kefir... Today is just Friday (June 8, 2007) and I do feel the results already... But since I'm working actively from 7 a.m. I may sometimes feel myself light-headed or dizzy. This type of schedule is a transition or adjustment for me before I start one meal daily plan. Hope once and forever!”
You see, the problems begun rapidly. But I thought light-headedness and dizziness would go away as soon as I got used to the new regimen…
In about a week or so I switched to a high fat (150-300 g of marrow a day), moderate protein (1lb – 1.5 lb meat a day) low carb (two - four cups of berries daily) raw paleo diet eaten at one evening meal within two-four hours. It was getting worse slowly but surely until the kidney stones episode in early 2008 put an end to this craze.

Go figure now how to tune those naughty hormones up…
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 01, 2010, 08:34:42 am
....consume moderate amounts of raw beef with practically no fat at all. Before I go to bed I may drink a cup of raw milk or self-made kefir... Today is just Friday (June 8, 2007) and I do feel the results already... But since I'm working actively from 7 a.m. I may sometimes feel myself light-headed or dizzy. This type of schedule is a transition or adjustment for me before I start one meal daily plan. Hope once and forever!”
You see, the problems begun rapidly. ....
If that is representative, it sounds like that diet was overly high in protein and too low in fat.

Have you had any luck in finding a diet you do OK on?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on January 01, 2010, 06:08:15 pm
I usually start eating at 6 p.m. and four hours onwards and consume moderate amounts of raw beef with practically no fat at all.

An excess of anything is as good as a poison. Looks like you did protein poisoning.

I did something like that about 15 years ago, and for your amusement, here's what I did about it after consulting my complaining stomach:
In a black iron frying pan over a propane camping stove,
fry to limp 1/2 pound of the fattiest bacon; eat it
dump a can of pork and beans in the grease, heat to bubbling; eat that
install two eggs in pan, cook over easy; eat them
fry two pieces bread to soak up all remaning grease; devour them
make cup of strong black coffee. Enjoy.
Then pack up the camp, hop on motorcycle and ride 500 miles. Life was good.

This might kill me now, but then I was a biker, and tougher than bat snot.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on January 02, 2010, 12:52:38 am

In about a week or so I switched to a high fat (150-300 g of marrow a day), moderate protein (1lb – 1.5 lb meat a day) low carb (two - four cups of berries daily) raw paleo diet eaten at one evening meal within two-four hours. It was getting worse slowly but surely ...

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 02, 2010, 05:17:30 am
Yes, I saw that you switched to a high-fat diet after your failed one-week experiment with a high protein diet. What I was wondering is, have you found anything since that works any better for you than that high-fat diet that failed? Have you tried going back to the diet you were "perfect" on? Maybe diet alone is not enough? Have your recent diagnoses led you to any conclusions on what to do?

I'm concerned about kidney stone risk myself. Were you taking any preventative measures other than the berries, such as drinking large quantities of magnesium-containing mineral water, before you developed them?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on January 03, 2010, 04:43:04 pm
High fat diet didn’t actually fail me. The way that I followed it did. As soon as I introduced intermittent fasting I developed some strange symptoms such as lightheaded when getting up to stand from sitting, dizziness, fatigue, lethargy and lack of energy, excessive hunger, increased effort to perform daily tasks, slow movements, feeling drugged in the midafternoon but then feeling more energized in the evening, pale color of face, dark circles under the eyes.

My rapid weight loss during the initial stages of IF deserves special attention. In four months on Primal Diet I gained around 60 pounds (from 115 to 175). During my first 4 – 6 weeks of eating one meal per day I have lost somewhere near 20 lb. It was purely unintentional as I cared little about my weight and I was eating more than enough calories back then. But I was still losing weight pretty quickly just from practicing IF. Now I understand that rapid weight loss can also lead to hormonal imbalances with decreased levels of many hormones including testosterone.

But I really liked the idea of eating once a day since it was so easy and convenient. I refused to believe that all these could have been caused by intermittent fasting.  Instead I unsuccessfully continued to experiment with the diet desperately trying to address these minor problems. Over time I was getting more and more new symptoms. I naively ignored them persuading myself that it was just the adaptation to IF. Besides I was backed up by the deep conviction that if anything there was always the possibility to return to the fail-safe Primal Diet as an emergency mean. It was just a foolish and dangerous delusion. I never made a full return to health after that. And NOTHNG has helped me since.

As for the kidney stones you shouldn’t be too concerned about them. When I developed mine I wasn’t taking any preventive measures. To the contrary I was just aggravating the situation by eating the high-purines foods such as sweetbreads (raw thyroid). I believe that in most cases muscle meats based ZC is pretty harmless. However to be on a safe side it is reasonable to take some alkalizing minerals (magnesium or potassium), little carbs or high HCO3 alkaline water.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Hannibal on January 03, 2010, 06:46:24 pm
As for the kidney stones you shouldn’t be too concerned about them. When I developed mine I wasn’t taking any preventive measures. To the contrary I was just aggravating the situation by eating the high-purines foods such as sweetbreads (raw thyroid). I believe that in most cases muscle meats based ZC is pretty harmless. However to be on a safe side it is reasonable to take some alkalizing minerals (magnesium or potassium), little carbs or high HCO3 alkaline water.
It's better to eat some amount of organ-meats, as they more nutritious than muscle-meats, but do include some amount of carbs (50-100 grams) and drink enough water with a little bit of good salt. There's no need to take magnesium and potassium supplements. In food there's enough of it.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on January 04, 2010, 01:04:04 am
High fat diet didn’t actually fail me. The way that I followed it did. As soon as I introduced intermittent fasting I developed some strange symptoms... I never made a full return to health after that. And NOTHNG has helped me since.
That's unfortunate. So quitting IF didn't help at all? Have you been able to gain back any weight at all?

Quote
As for the kidney stones you shouldn’t be too concerned about them. When I developed mine I wasn’t taking any preventive measures. To the contrary I was just aggravating the situation by eating the high-purines foods such as sweetbreads (raw thyroid). I believe that in most cases muscle meats based ZC is pretty harmless. However to be on a safe side it is reasonable to take some alkalizing minerals (magnesium or potassium), little carbs or high HCO3 alkaline water.
OK, thanks.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on January 19, 2010, 03:55:37 pm
so yuri how have you been feeling lately? i mean would you still consider yourself sick? you have chronic fatigue? how is your digestion...just curious
do you even know whats wrong with your body? is life even worth living anymore? is it that bad...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on January 21, 2010, 02:09:42 pm
so yuri how have you been feeling lately? i mean would you still consider yourself sick? you have chronic fatigue? how is your digestion...just curious
do you even know whats wrong with your body? is life even worth living anymore? is it that bad...

Everything sucks in all aspects  :'(
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on January 25, 2010, 08:57:36 pm
Quickest, cheapest way to super-charge your health that you can do NOW (http://freedomforcreation.posterous.com/quickest-cheapest-way-to-super-charge-your-he)

The quickest and cheapest way to change your diet and put your diet on hyperdrive without having to buy any extra food, while still lowering the amount of toxins in your body. This will totally eradicate mood swings, depression, and anxiety. People who eat red meat are tough, have high libidos and vitality. Sugar lowers vitality and sex drive. This is why it's called diabetic impotence.

Eliminate all sugars and carbs. No matter how low glycemicly they may be. Your body was designed for meat. You have enamel teeth that do not regrow like cows or horses, and a stomach full of acid. This acid is so strong that if you have heart burn, acid reflux or binge, this acid will eat your esophagus lining so you cannot swallow anymore.

Zero carbs may is actually required by different types of people depending on their metabolism type,such as hypoglcymic and diabetics. There are forums on this subject and people who do this feel like super humans. You have been consuming refined sugar drugs your entire life. This means your body is taxed of resources so it would be best if you eliminate all sugars. You don't have too. Your body creates insulin which puts your body in hibernation mode called a crash. It's a fat storage hormone. It makes you tired and sleepy. White bread is almost as bad as sugar. These are the two main sugars you consume. On this diet you will not have gas and won't overeat. It's impossible to get fat on this diet since fat cannot be stored, only burned.

Try it and tell me if your energy doesn't skyrocket. Your blood sugar will  be rock stable so you won't have mood swings. Oh and this is the answer to diabetes. Diabetes is just a condition, NOT a disease. Your pancreas will get time to heal. And so will your adrenals. You won't have excess adrenaline or other stress hormones in your blood.

   rawlion said...
So you think that raw zero carbohydrate diet could help to recevoer from acute adrenal fatigue? Do you have any other important suggestions for this condition?

   Real Life Nutrition said...
You have adrenal fatigue because your body is conserving energy because the adrenals are too weak from overproduction of hormones. Causing your body to produce homomones with wrong timing and not enough.

The Cure? Look below.

First... eliminate ALL sugar bread,candy etc. anything that is a carbohydrate remove it from your diet. Sugars makes your adrenals produce more adrenaline, putting more stress on them.Weakening them, with enough sugar you will get adrenal failure and be bedridden. Gives them rest.

You get a HUGE energy boost from this, craving for carbs goes down after a couple of days.Insulin is the fat storage hormone by eliminating sugar you will stop all production of insulin meaning you will be able to use fat for energy.

Next you need to repair the adrenals. Vitamin B is essential for adrenal function.Find Raw Desiccated adrenal gland or buy it raw yourself there are some on northstarbison.com. only eat a little at first. These have everything your adrenals need.EVERYTHING.

Get Raw liver or desiccated raw liver. The b vitamins in there are in a special form that can only be gained through raw liver. Liver has other benefits too that SKYROCKET ENERGY! you can get both desiccated liver and adrenal here.

http://www.leviticus11.com/dl.htm

Go on the high protein ZERO carb diet immediately.

This condition has been told to take up to 10 years to heal this is why IN combination of what I already told you you should get some jbni herbs.

These are the best things you can do cheaply. Next you need JBNI's recommendation there biodrux are the best in the health field.

Hurry! so I can put your testomoinal on the blog.

improtant note : rare meat tastes better and speeds healing!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on January 25, 2010, 10:19:40 pm
What non-dietary solutions have you been looking at?
Have you tried colored light therapy?
If you suspect a weak organ, special colors on that area will help rejuvenate your organ.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: roony on January 26, 2010, 05:58:54 am
What non-dietary solutions have you been looking at?
Have you tried colored light therapy?
If you suspect a weak organ, special colors on that area will help rejuvenate your organ.

sounds good, any links samaritan? thnx
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: RawZi on January 26, 2010, 07:14:13 am
    The writer means diabetes mellitus.  RawZC should help diabetes insipidus as well.  Diabetes is more of a renal problem than pancreatic at all.  I had renal problems and by adding low to no sugar RAF's into my diet rather than "health food", my kidneys were able to heal.

Quickest, cheapest way to super-charge your health that you can do NOW (http://freedomforcreation.posterous.com/quickest-cheapest-way-to-super-charge-your-he)The quickest and cheapest way to change your diet and put your diet on hyperdrive without having to buy any extra food, while still lowering the amount of toxins in your body. This will totally eradicate mood swings, depression, and anxiety. People who eat red meat are tough, have high libidos and vitality. Sugar lowers vitality and sex drive. This is why it's called diabetic impotence.

Zero carbs may is actually required by different types of people depending on their metabolism type,such as hypoglcymic and diabetics. There are forums on this subject and people who do this feel like super humans. You have been consuming refined sugar drugs your entire life. This means your body is taxed of resources so it would be best if you eliminate all sugars. You don't have too. Your body creates insulin which puts your body in hibernation mode called a crash. It's a fat storage hormone. It makes you tired and sleepy. White bread is almost as bad as sugar. These are the two main sugars you consume. On this diet you will not have gas and won't overeat. It's impossible to get fat on this diet since fat cannot be stored, only burned.

Try it and tell me if your energy doesn't skyrocket. Your blood sugar will  be rock stable so you won't have mood swings. Oh and this is the answer to diabetes. Diabetes is just a condition, NOT a disease. Your pancreas will get time to heal.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: RawZi on January 31, 2010, 10:59:24 am
    Yuri, I don't know why I didn't think about this before, or whether you have, or whether for sure it would work, but I'll try.  A mint plant has very few carbs, little enough I think for your diet.  Much of the food you eat is lamb.  The herb most often eaten with lamb is mint.  There may be a reason.  I imagine mint can be good for the gall bladder.  You have cholecystitis, an inflammatory condition.  That's heat.  Mint is a very cooling herb. 

    Many people serve cooked lamb with mint sauce.  In Lebanon, Syria and Palestine they make habra nayeh, a raw lamb dish with loads of raw mint leaves.  In many Arab and Eastern countries lamb is the most frequent meat, and mint tea is sipped between each mouthful of food.  There may be health reasons. 

    I have a tiny mint plant in my home.  You can grow a bunch of mint plants.  It shouldn't hurt anything, plus they grow so you don't even have to run out.  Eat mint several times per day.  Build up to it, use a little the first day and so on.  Maybe the fiber will bother you, as you are not accostomed to it.  In that case try it different ways.  Maybe knead it with the meat, or crush it with morter and pestel, you have a great imagination, I'm sure there are other ways to try, to see which may be the perfect prescription for you. 

    I feel this may be what you need to make ZC work optimally for you.  Diet in my opinion is not only about calories, macronutrients or current medical literature.  It's about art, chemistry and other things too, many ways to balance art that work.     

Cholecystitis is an inflammation of the gallbladder. In many cases, cholecystitis is caused by gallstones that block the tube leading out of the gallbladder. This results in a buildup of bile that can cause inflammation. Other causes of cholecystitis include infection, injury and tumors. The doc didn’t say that I have gallstones so I presume it is caused by infection. I have been diagnosed with cholecystitis for the first time when I did abdominal ultrasound in April. Nothing has changed since then.

In presence of cholecystitis, a blood test may reveal that white blood cell count is higher than normal, which may indicate an infection. Blood tests may also show high levels of bilirubin (an orange-yellow pigment that's released into bile and stored in gallbladder), alkaline phosphatase (an enzyme found in high concentrations in liver and bile ducts) and serum aninotransferase (liver enzymes). It is interesting because I have normal readings of the above tests. Moreover I have none of the signs or symptoms of cholecystitis. The doc who was examining me couldn’t believe that I don’t have any pain in bladder area.

...

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Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 01, 2010, 12:43:12 pm
Since you can't consume thyroid for what you suspect is hypothyroid, another option that some people claim works is iodine from sources like kelp and wild fatty fish. However, you might want to talk to your physician about it first, because your issues sound serious, I don't recall you mentioning your thyroid and iodine levels being tested, and I'd hate to lead you in the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: RawZi on February 01, 2010, 02:10:47 pm
    If you are hypothyroid, mint may be bad for you.  I was diagnosed hypothyroid and have never had a problem with mint, except I don't like mint gum, mint toothpaste nor mint mouthwash, but I have a friend who helped herself heal from being hypothyroid who eliminated mint from all her food and personal care products and it helped her with this.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 03, 2010, 12:01:43 am
I have been zeroing for five months now. The results are far from satisfying. But I am certain that carbs won’t change anything.

My digestion is dead miserable. The condition of having low hydrochloric acid levels in the stomach is often the cause of digestive disorders. Some researchers have found that people with certain diseases are more likely to have an inability to produce normal quantities of stomach acid (including Addison’s or thyroid disease).

Three major categories of herbs are used to treat indigestion when no cause for the condition is known: bitters (digestive stimulants), carminatives (gas-relieving herbs), and demulcents (soothing herbs). A fortnight or so ago I started making herbal decoctions. In my case its a sort of tea made from bitters (dandelion, wormwood, celandine) and carminatives (fennel seeds, ginger, peppermint, caraway). I wish it worked…

Since I am eating nothing but meat and fat I should not have had the following digestive complaints:
- anal itching;
- anemia;
- regular diarrhea;
- permanent gas and bloating;
- abdominal cramps, rumblings and gurgling;
- feeling full all the time;
- constant stomach aches;
- foul-smelling and greasy stool;
- distended abdomen (am I becoming one of the massai (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3281/2930327665_8c381e3c56.jpg)?).

No wonder that I feel like nothing on earth...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on February 03, 2010, 12:52:55 am
The condition of having low hydrochloric acid levels in the stomach is often the cause of digestive disorders.

Not true! Definitely not true - there are at least two men who must eat raw bacuse their stomachs make no hydrochloric acid. When people eat raw meat and have digestive problems, it is not reasonable to think that it is in the stomach.

Quote
A fortnight or so ago I started making herbal decoctions. In my case its a sort of tea made from bitters (dandelion, wormwood, celandine) and carminatives (fennel seeds, ginger, peppermint, caraway). I wish it worked…

Dangerous, IMHO.

Quote
Since I am eating nothing but meat and fat I should not have had the following digestive complaints:
- anal itching;
- anemia;
- regular diarrhea;
- permanent gas and bloating;
- abdominal cramps, rumblings and gurgling;
- feeling full all the time;
- constant stomach aches;
- foul-smelling and greasy stool;
- distended abdomen (am I becoming one of the massai (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3281/2930327665_8c381e3c56.jpg)?).

No wonder that suffering from all the above I feel like nothing on earth...


Have you tried drying the meat first? You might be one of those who, like me, react badly to fresh meat, but do well if it is somewhat dried. Reference to Dr. Harris' comment about an allergen in meat (bovine serum albumin) being removed by drying.
I thaw ground beef in the frig for a day, then dry for 3 hours. It is tasty.
Fat also tastes better when it is dried, but I have not tried drying it for such a short time.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 03, 2010, 01:01:13 am
Not true! Definitely not true - there are at least two men who must eat raw bacuse their stomachs make no hydrochloric acid. When people eat raw meat and have digestive problems, it is not reasonable to think that it is in the stomach.

Why then all the digestive problems?

Have you tried drying the meat first? You might be one of those who, like me, react badly to fresh meat, but do well if it is somewhat dried. Reference to Dr. Harris' comment about an allergen in meat (bovine serum albumin) being removed by drying.
I thaw ground beef in the frig for a day, then dry for 3 hours. It is tasty.
Fat also tastes better when it is dried, but I have not tried drying it for such a short time.

I tried it for a short period in the past and would definitely like to do it again. But I don't have neccessary equipment and my bro won't allow me to do this in his appartment...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on February 03, 2010, 01:40:41 am
I have been zeroing for five months now. The results are far from satisfying. But I am certain that carbs won’t change anything.

My digestion is dead miserable. The condition of having low hydrochloric acid levels in the stomach is often the cause of digestive disorders. Some researchers have found that people with certain diseases are more likely to have an inability to produce normal quantities of stomach acid (including Addison’s or thyroid disease).

Three major categories of herbs are used to treat indigestion when no cause for the condition is known: bitters (digestive stimulants), carminatives (gas-relieving herbs), and demulcents (soothing herbs). A fortnight or so ago I started making herbal decoctions. In my case its a sort of tea made from bitters (dandelion, wormwood, celandine) and carminatives (fennel seeds, ginger, peppermint, caraway). I wish it worked…

Since I am eating nothing but meat and fat I should not have had the following digestive complaints:
- anal itching;
- anemia;
- regular diarrhea;
- permanent gas and bloating;
- abdominal cramps, rumblings and gurgling;
- feeling full all the time;
- constant stomach aches;
- foul-smelling and greasy stool;
- distended abdomen (am I becoming one of the massai (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3281/2930327665_8c381e3c56.jpg)?).

No wonder that I feel like nothing on earth...

What about betain HCL ??
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 03, 2010, 02:10:07 am
What about betain HCL ??

Tempting idea but unfortunately it does fall beyond my budget limits...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on February 03, 2010, 02:16:32 am
Why then all the digestive problems?



Because you are eating something indigestible. Either there is something wrong with it, or there is something wrong with you. Or both.
Detective work needed, and only you can do it.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 03, 2010, 02:19:08 am
This is what I am eating:
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: miles on February 03, 2010, 02:32:23 am
Do you get a fever too, along with those other problems? I think I get all those problems you mentioned, when I eat certain types of fat, the tougher fats. Is your beef grass-fed? Oh, looks like you eat lamb, why is the meat so black? I was wondering if larger amounts of fat could only be eaten from mature animals... As I think it gets softer? Is your lamb grass-fed then? With lamb though, even if it is - it still only lived for a short time...

I've been trying to figure out what I can do... I'm OK if I just eat steaks with small quantities of fat. As long as I feel like I'm eating meat, and there is not much fat and I feel like I could do with more, it's ok. As long as I don't have enough fat that I feel like I'm 'set', it's fine. If it feels like I'm eating meat and fat, and like I've had plenty of fat that's when I have the trouble... However, with those smaller amounts of fat I don't have much energy(compared to cooked when I could eat lots of fat, + fruit).. But if I eat the fat it makes me severely ill and I have no energy whatsoever. The tough, chew fat is the worst for me I think, including from lamb meat and some diced beef I had; not just organ suet.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on February 03, 2010, 02:52:07 am
This is what I am eating:

Way too much fat!
No wild animal can carry so much fat.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 03, 2010, 03:42:47 am
Do you get a fever too, along with those other problems? I think I get all those problems you mentioned, when I eat certain types of fat, the tougher fats. Is your beef grass-fed? Oh, looks like you eat lamb, why is the meat so black? I was wondering if larger amounts of fat could only be eaten from mature animals... As I think it gets softer? Is your lamb grass-fed then? With lamb though, even if it is - it still only lived for a short time...

Sometimes I may get fever from diarrhea.

Technically its mutton, not lamb, that is why it is so dark and fatty. Lamb is absolutely LEAN and has virtually no fat on it.

Have you tried butter?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: miles on February 03, 2010, 07:18:23 am
Nah, I haven't tried butter.. why?

Someone said you had some sort of stones blocking your bile? If this true(and how do they know?), how does this occur in the first place and how is it sorted? Does it just sort itself out over time? Do you think it's possible I could have something blocking my bile, or impairing its' production..?

I think if the fat gets beyond the small intestine it is bad, as it's not meant to handle fat. I think you have to make sure you can absorb virtually all the fat which you eat.. I think it causes problems in the large intestine I read somewhere *shrug*.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on February 03, 2010, 09:35:05 am
Way too much fat!
No wild animal can carry so much fat.

Recorded experience of those who never heard of diet is that they ate the fatty parts of wild animals, and left the lean meat for the dogs/wolves/foxes/crows etc. That was American bison.

Has anyone tried the known paleolithic diet of brains and marrow? Some lean meat would also be necessary.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: djr_81 on February 03, 2010, 11:44:41 pm
Way too much fat!
Agreed.
If those photos are indicative of the ratio of fat to lean in your meals Yuri then you're eating too much fat. This would definitely explain some, but not all, of your symptoms.
It's not frequently I say this but you need to cut back on some of the fat intake and see how it makes you feel.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on February 04, 2010, 01:53:58 am
Agreed.
If those photos are indicative of the ratio of fat to lean in your meals Yuri then you're eating too much fat. This would definitely explain some, but not all, of your symptoms.
It's not frequently I say this but you need to cut back on some of the fat intake and see how it makes you feel.

I also tend to eat too much fat and experience similar symptoms...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Nation on February 04, 2010, 02:16:09 am
I also tend to eat too much fat and experience similar symptoms...


interesting.. I've been having a lil bit of diarrhea in the last 2-3 days, and coincidentally, the meat i've been eating this week is the fattiest meat i've ever eaten. I was wondering why.

I will go back to leaner meat.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: djr_81 on February 04, 2010, 02:34:40 am
interesting.. I've been having a lil bit of diarrhea in the last 2-3 days, and coincidentally, the meat i've been eating this week is the fattiest meat i've ever eaten. I was wondering why.

I will go back to leaner meat.
Post up a photo if you can beforehand.
You may be eating the right amount of fat and just not processing it quite right (not sure how long you've been eating this way so this might be a moot point by now). It's usually better to err on the side of more fat, even if you do have some problems at first processing it all, as not getting enough is such a knock to energy levels and many other things. :)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 04, 2010, 02:57:21 am
Do you really think guys that over the two years of trying to address my health problems I haven't experimented with lowering my fat intake yet? My digestion is low no matter if I eat just leaner meats, fish or fowl. Granted if I go above certain percentage of fat in the diet the situation exacerbates even further.

In those photos are the fattest parts of the animal namely brisket and ribs. I do not see anything unnatural about that.

According to the ultrasound scan I didn't have any stones in my bile. It was just inflamed. Wikipedia states that "cholecystitis usually presents as a pain in the right upper quadrant. This is usually a constant, severe pain. The pain may be felt to 'refer' to the right flank or right scapular region at first. May also present with the above mentioned pain after eating greasy or fatty foods such as pastries, pies and fried foods. This is usually accompanied by a low grade fever, vomiting and nausea." However, much to the doc's surprise I didn't have any pain in there or any other specific symptoms. I am not sure its anything to worry about. If you lose too much sleep over the gallstones you can make one of those gallbladder flushes to settle yourself down.

Butter... is one of the easiest fats to digest and assimilate. It is second only to fat in egg yolk and coconut oil.

I have also noticed that SUET and to a lesser extend subcutaneous fat tend to cause stomach pains, loose stools and diarrhea.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on February 04, 2010, 03:07:32 am
Do you really think guys that over the two years of trying to address my health problems I haven't experimented with lowering my fat intake yet? My digestion is low no matter if I eat just leaner meats, fish or fowl. Granted if I go above certain percentage of fat in the diet the situation exacerbates even further.

In those photos are the fattest parts of the animal namely brisket and ribs. I do not see anything unnatural about that.

According to the ultrasound scan I didn't have any stones in my bile. It was just inflamed. Wikipedia states that "cholecystitis usually presents as a pain in the right upper quadrant. This is usually a constant, severe pain. The pain may be felt to 'refer' to the right flank or right scapular region at first. May also present with the above mentioned pain after eating greasy or fatty foods such as pastries, pies and fried foods. This is usually accompanied by a low grade fever, vomiting and nausea." However, much to the doc's surprise I didn't have any pain in there or any other specific symptoms. I am not sure its anything to worry about. If you lose too much sleep over the gallstones you can make one of those gallbladder flushes to settle yourself down.

Butter... is one of the easiest fats to digest and assimilate. It is second only to fat in egg yolk and coconut oil.

I have also noticed that SUET and to a lesser extend subcutaneous fat tend to cause stomach pains, loose stools and diarrhea.

Yuri,

It is clear that you are doing something wrong with your diet.
I suspect your body needs a break from all this fatty meat, and fasting maybe a good idea for you. This would be a way to "reset" your digestive system and organs.
Too much of even the best food you can find is detrimental for your health.
Hope this help.



Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: miles on February 04, 2010, 03:55:00 am
Recorded experience of those who never heard of diet is that they ate the fatty parts of wild animals, and left the lean meat for the dogs/wolves/foxes/crows etc. That was American bison.

Yeah, but what does it mean fatty meat? Is that nice, soft mouth-watering fat, and/or the fat mixed with the meat? The difference may be: Fat which served a long-term function within the prey's body is hard to digest and bad; fat which is simply for storing energy in the prey will be easy to digest and good, because it would've constantly been broken down and re assimilated by the prey itself and needed to be soft.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on February 04, 2010, 04:50:53 am
Yeah, but what does it mean fatty meat?

My reference was to the Lewis and Clark expedition, and they ate the tongue and hump.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: miles on February 04, 2010, 10:39:35 am
But what is the definition of 'fatty'? Fatty, but relative to what? Fatty relative to a chicken breast? Fatty relative to skin+fat? The fattiest parts of a fit wild animal; or the fattiest parts of a morbidly obese, domesticated/docile animal?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Nation on February 04, 2010, 05:07:47 pm
Do tongues have alot of fat? Do they taste good?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on February 04, 2010, 05:49:58 pm
Do tongues have alot of fat? Do they taste good?
 Tongues are somewhere between 50-60% fat.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: roony on February 07, 2010, 01:33:43 am
Yeah, but what does it mean fatty meat? Is that nice, soft mouth-watering fat, and/or the fat mixed with the meat? The difference may be: Fat which served a long-term function within the prey's body is hard to digest and bad; fat which is simply for storing energy in the prey will be easy to digest and good, because it would've constantly been broken down and re assimilated by the prey itself and needed to be soft.

Interesting definition of fat, isnt fat rapidly formed & expelled by the body itself, in faeces, sweat, mucus etc.?

I'm not sure if the body strictly re-assimilates fat ...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: miles on February 07, 2010, 02:29:08 am
Well... the adipose cells fill with triglycerides? and then are emptied/filled constantly? But in the tough fat, which serves some other function, the body might only break that down in similar situations to when it'd break down muscle. So if you eat it, it's hard to use...?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on February 07, 2010, 07:33:21 am
maybe some sort of fasting may help...just a thought
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on February 07, 2010, 08:19:04 am
it just seems that your just stuffing yourself with food and hoping for the best, the theory holds that fasting will allow your digestive system and body a break to repair/heal itself. I too for some reason feel full all the time and dont know if this usually happens to people on this diet , all i eat is bone marrow, eggs, meat, vegetable juice.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on February 15, 2010, 11:56:07 am
yuri it should be clear to you as well as to everybody else that this diet does not suit you and has harmed you/caused all your ills you are currently facing. every health problem is associated with diet and you are no exception. fasting does not create the health problems that you have, only diet. my theory is that the bone marrow that you introduced after quiting dairy food was not tolerated well by your body and therefore harmed you. you have poor digestion because of your diet, and everything else wrong with you. you must stop currently what your eating before it gets even worse. either go back to your native diet, or do what aajonus suggest and eat only eggs milk and cream/butter. or something else, but not what your eating right now.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on February 15, 2010, 01:46:11 pm
some things that i have noticed while i recently introduced bone marrow into my raw meat diet: I feel full, like i dont feel like eating alot. When i eat bone marrow along with my meat meal i notice that the meat takes longer to get out of my stomach because the fat sticks the sides of my intestines and stomach not letting the meat pass through, i feel like i have a brick in my stomach "heavy feeling".

before with my meat meal i was eating butter eggs and some cream for my fat source and i have not noticed the heavy feeling i get with bone marrow.

well today i no longer felt like doing the diet because i didnt like the food i eat and just felt like something wasnt right....i was heavily in thought about whether the bone marrow was a good fat source, but then i just said hey fuck it i quit this and i dont care if i possibly get sick from eating cooked foods in the future, besides, i was healthy on a SAD. So today after like 3 months eating raw meat diet i ate pizza and a subway sandwitch. i ate it at 3pm and then the sandwitch at 4-5pm. and the pizza and sandwitch i think came fully digested out of my bum at 12.00pk today. thats fast considering i used to take craps every 2-3 days. and the feces were perfectly smooth and brown and not hard/constipated like my last one. I just dont know if i should go back to eating my raw diet just excluding bone marrow and see how it goes or just eat cooked but less processed cooked food.

again one can only have impaired digestion look you yuri from a bad diet, you might think that that mutton and raw goat is the ideal diet, but for it sure seems like it aint if you still got all those problems listed.

kidney stones are also caused by diet, as you have developed by going ZC. maybe your problem started not when you started fasting but when you switched from cream, butter and eggs as your fat source to bone marrow as your fat source.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on February 15, 2010, 02:06:41 pm
oh maybe bone marrow hasnt worked out well for me because it was the dry, crumbily kind not the creamy liquidy kind that i had only once.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on February 17, 2010, 01:09:17 pm
on second thought, maybe fasting has messed up your health.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 17, 2010, 10:04:51 pm
Here are my replies to questions by pc701:

maybe some sort of fasting may help...just a thought
No it won’t.

t just seems that your just stuffing yourself with food and hoping for the best, the theory holds that fasting will allow your digestive system and body a break to repair/heal itself
These kind of fasting theories ruined my health. I know that the old adage goes that desperate diseases must have desperate cures but this is hardly my case. I don’t really think that eating half a pound of meat with some fat daily divided into two meals is any sort of stuffing. Far from it.

my theory is that the bone marrow that you introduced after quiting dairy food was not tolerated well by your body and therefore harmed you.
Well, you definitely have a point here. I speculate that a kind of toxicity may have wrecked my endocrine system, in particular my thyroid and adrenals. It could have been caused either by intermittent fasting, bone marrow consumption or the combination of the two. You see, when I started IF I begun losing weight very quickly. That rapid weight loss may have triggered the release of massive amounts of toxins from the fat deposits into my body thus overtaxing and damaging the glands. As for the marrow it is known to be the primary place of storage of toxins in the body. The marrow that I was eating could have contained various heavy metals that might have harmed my thyroid and adrenals.

you have poor digestion because of your diet, and everything else wrong with you. you must stop currently what your eating before it gets even worse. either go back to your native diet, or do what aajonus suggest and eat only eggs milk and cream/butter. or something else, but not what your eating right now.
It is perfectly clear that the effective digestion is absolutely crucial to a good health. I ate my native diet, tried what Aajonus suggested, consumed only eggs, fermented milk and cream/butter and did even more than that all to no avail…

some things that i have noticed while i recently introduced bone marrow into my raw meat diet: I feel full, like i dont feel like eating alot. When i eat bone marrow along with my meat meal i notice that the meat takes longer to get out of my stomach because the fat sticks the sides of my intestines and stomach not letting the meat pass through, i feel like i have a brick in my stomach "heavy feeling".
I think it is more to do with what your digestion is apt to. Before IF, when I had perfect digestion, I ate form half a pound to a pound of marrow at one sitting, topped all that fat with a pound of meat and could play soccer in 30-60 minutes after that meal. Now, when my digestion is severely compromised, I tolerate marrow very poorly. Suet also causes me massive problems. Even cream is too hard. The only fat that I can handle more or less fine is butter. It is truly magical…

kidney stones are also caused by diet, as you have developed by going ZC. maybe your problem started not when you started fasting but when you switched from cream, butter and eggs as your fat source to bone marrow as your fat source.
It can be but is highly unlikely. I know many people who regularly consume commercial meats without any signs of deterioration of their health. intermittent fasting was the single biggest killer of my physical health…
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on February 17, 2010, 10:23:06 pm
Before IF, when I had perfect digestion, I ate form half a pound to a pound of marrow at one sitting, topped all that fat with a pound of meat and could play soccer in 30-60 minutes after that meal. Now, when my digestion is severely compromised, I tolerate marrow very poorly. Suet also causes me massive problems. Even cream is too hard. The only fat that I can handle more or less fine is butter. It is truly magical…

Well, if you have abused your body like you did (1 pound of marrow+1pound of meat in one meal and play soccer 1 hour after), I am not surprised your have compromised your digestion!
Not everybody can imitate a carnivore without troubles.
Again, humans are omnivore, we are not adapted to feast and famines like carnivore.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 17, 2010, 10:40:09 pm
I could play but it doesn't mean that I did. I used that demonstrative example just to illustrate how easy and effortless was my digestion.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Paleo Donk on February 18, 2010, 09:56:01 am
Quote
As for the marrow it is known to be the primary place of storage of toxins in the body. The marrow that I was eating could have contained various heavy metals that might have harmed my thyroid and adrenals.

Do you have a source for this? I would guess that the toxins are first stored in body fat first since this fat is essentially useless for the health of the animal. Why would the animal take time to put the toxins in the bone marrow which would be much more essential to health?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: KD on February 18, 2010, 10:27:32 am
Why would the animal take time to put the toxins in the bone marrow which would be much more essential to health?


I'm certainly no expert on RPD, but most of what I've read over the years suggests that marrow will be more contaminated than muscle meats. I don't think its a conscious choice on the part of the animal, nor would it need to be. For example, humans can have all sorts of issues with toxins or heavy metals in various organs and indeed have bone marrow issues. Is their flesh/muscle tissue also toxic? I'd assume to some degree but far less than fatty tissue or organs, some of which of course are designed to try to filter out some of these substances and cannot. Also as an educated guess, I imagine bone marrow to be something that accumulates over a lifetime, the cells in muscle tissue being more in flux/state of detox.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on February 18, 2010, 01:48:49 pm
the only other theory i have left why you went down hill is because you were overdosing on protein, you ate mostly carbs as your calories from most of your life and now you all of a sudden jam your system will tons of protein that i guess screwed up your system, I am eating more fruits and vegeatbles and it seems to help me regarding dark under eyes which i think is caused by stress on the kidneys
 
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 18, 2010, 11:44:27 pm
Here I’d like to share with you some of my latest findings:

The vitamin C puzzle
You may remember that back in September of last year, at the very outset of my ongoing zero journey, I was taking synthetic vitamin C for about 4-6 weeks and had tremendously good results with it. Among other things I experienced rather significant improvement in my digestion. Initially I couldn’t logically explain that bettering and wrote it all off to the possible healing properties of the vitamin C might on the adrenals. As soon as I stopped taking ascorbic acid the amount of meat that I could consume daily slowly decreased fourfold. Later I got the opportunity (courtesy of “ys” who is the member of our forum) to experiment with the natural form of vitamin C (http://www.thesynergycompany.com/prc_about.html) derived from plants/fruits. Much to my regret it failed to mitigate the benefits shown by its synthetic analogue. After giving this matter some more careful thought I drew the conclusion that it was not the vitamin C that was aiding my digestion but Ascorbic Acid. Evidently it is a very good idea to take something acidic with the meals for a while to enhance absorption. These can be non-buffered vitamin C (ascorbic acid), citric acid, malic acid, apple cider vinegar or betaine HCl. I will report on this issue once I’ve got the chance to try out some of the abovementioned acids.

Cloudy urine confusion
Once he has amassed a large body of evidence and deduced a number of possible explanations, Holmes proceeds to find the one explanation that fits all the facts of the case to produce a solution. As Holmes explains to Watson, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
So did I. I couldn’t be sure what was causing my cloudy urine until I excluded all the variables and stayed on nothing but meat and fat for an extended period of time. Now there is not a shade of doubt that ZC is the sole contributor.

Butter magic
These past 5 raw zero months were totally futile. The situation was gradually worsening until the powerful climax came at the end of January. I could not endure any longer the systematic diarrhea which kept me awake for most of the nights, excruciating stomach pains and severe indigestion. I run out of strength, patience and belief. I decided to fast and put an end to my unbearable sorrow. Luckily I met my milkman on the second day of the fast. Since I had nothing to lose I decided to give myself one more chance, this time with a bit of dairy. I made only one change to my all meat and fat diet, namely I replaced suet with butter. The results were not slow to arrive. As early as on the second day I felt warmer. When I was eating suet as my fat source I was extremely cold and had to wear shirt, sweater and jacket in my apartment. As I switched to butter just the shirt was enough to keep me warm. The stomach pains considerably diminished and eventually subsided. The diarrhea stopped. The butter treatment gave me renewed hope…

GOD save the COW!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on February 19, 2010, 02:26:21 am
yuri i think it is illogical to think that indigestion or digestive problems being caused by fasting. Maybe you have not tried aajonus's approach to fixing your digestive problems long enough to say that  it works or not, or maybe going on your native diet long enough.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on February 20, 2010, 07:06:38 pm
Here I’d like to share with you some of my latest findings:

 Since I had nothing to lose I decided to give myself one more chance, this time with a bit of dairy. I made only one change to my all meat and fat diet, namely I replaced suet with butter. The results were not slow to arrive. As early as on the second day I felt warmer. When I was eating suet as my fat source I was extremely cold and had to wear shirt, sweater and jacket in my apartment. As I switched to butter just the shirt was enough to keep me warm. The stomach pains considerably diminished and eventually subsided. The diarrhea stopped. The butter treatment gave me renewed hope…

GOD save the COW!

Very interesting, and it supports the idea that we don't know enough about fat. Was the butter raw?


The European creation story has the first ancestor of Man being created by a cow named Audhumbla, Who licked a block of ice she found in the ginningugap, thus sort of carving out the shape of a man.
These ancestral stories are IMHO teaching stories, maybe they were trying to tell us to eat butter?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 20, 2010, 08:00:49 pm
Very interesting, and it supports the idea that we don't know enough about fat. Was the butter raw?

Raw and grass-fed as far as it is possible to be in winter. In fact as I already mentioned in my Journal I make this butter myself.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on February 20, 2010, 08:32:54 pm
For what it's worth, I do not see beef suet as my food, I see it as an industrial material.

I am so happy for you.  You finally found some fat that works for you in raw butter.  :)

Go on, keep experimenting.

Your journal is very much appreciated.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: miles on February 20, 2010, 10:49:13 pm
Could it be because of the fairly high amount of unsaturated fat in butter?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Paleo Donk on February 21, 2010, 12:05:19 am
Could it be because of the fairly high amount of unsaturated fat in butter?

Probably not, from usda nutrient database
saturated:mono:poly
suet - 52:31.5:3
butter - 51:21:3

So butter has a higher ratio of saturated to non
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: carnivore on February 21, 2010, 12:35:30 am
Suet is the hardest fat to digest, while butter one of the the easiest (already emulsified).
But all dairy has some drawbacks (from the paleodiet update) :

 Hazards of Dairy

I recently spoke at a conference at Harvard organized by Walter Willet, focused on dairy. As the science unfolds, we continue to uncover more information that the National Dairy Council is not going to like. It turns out that there may be much greater concerns than its high insulinemic response, recombinant bovine growth hormone, casein protein, or lactose intolerance. In this issue, I update you on my latest findings regarding how dairy can adversely affect your health.

Another Reason Not To Drink Your Milk: Betacellulin

Although dairy foods comprise nearly 11% of the energy in the typical U.S. diet1, these foods were never consumed by every human on the planet as recently as 500 human generations (10,000 years) ago. Increasingly, data from tissue, human, animal and epidemiological studies demonstrate that this staple food has the potential to adversely influence health as would be predicted by the evolutionary template.

The Epidermal Growth Factor Receptor

Only 12 short years have elapsed since the discovery that humans bear a hormonal receptor in their gastrointestinal tract called the epidermal growth factor receptor. This trans-membrane, hormonal receptor is very unusual in that it is expressed luminally – meaning that it faces the gut contents rather than the bloodstream2, 3. The location of the EGF receptor puzzled scientists for years – why was it expressed luminally and what was its function4? Since, hormones always arrive at tissues from the circulation, why should the EGF receptor face the gut contents, which in effect are outside the body?

Function of the Gut Epidermal Growth Factor Receptor

It turns out that the primary function of the luminally facing EGF receptor is to stimulate healing and maintain the integrity of the cells lining the gastrointestinal tract3, 4. In humans, the primary source of the hormone (EGF) which binds to the EGF receptor in the gut comes from saliva5. So when you swallow your own saliva, it contains a hormone (EGF), which binds to the EGF receptor located in the gut to maintain the integrity and promote healing of the cells (epithelial cells) lining the gut (Figure 1).

Figure 1. Synthesis of EGF from the salivary glands and absorption in the gut via the EGF receptor (EGF-R).

After the salivary EGF binds the EGF receptor, both the receptor and EGF may cross into the interior of gut cells. The EGF receptor is then recycled back into the cell membrane (Figure 1). Most of the EGF is degraded by organelles within the cell called lysosomes. However, some EGF escapes destruction by the lysosomes and then enters circulation. We know that salivary EGF enters circulation, because when the salivary and submandibular glands of laboratory animals are destroyed, blood concentrations of EGF are greatly reduced6.

Besides being expressed luminally in the gut, the EGF receptor is expressed in the usual manner (facing the bloodstream) in all epithelial cells and organs undergoing branching morphogenesis during embryonic development. Consequently salivary EGF that enters the circulation can bind EGF receptors located in the skin, gastrointestinal tract, lung, kidney, mammary gland, pancreas, prostate gland, ovary and other tissues. At this point, it should be noted that there are actually four different forms of the EGF receptor (ErbB-1, ErbB-2, ErbB-3 and ErbB-4) found throughout the body. Each of these four receptors combine with one another to form pairs called homodimers or heterodimers that can bind EGF or EGF like hormones (Figure 2). Keep this information in mind when the discussion moves to cancer.

Figure 2. The four families of the epidermal growth factor receptor (ErbB1, ErbB2, ErbB3 and ErbB4).

Each of the four receptors combines to form a pair with a different receptor (a heterodimer) or itself (a homodimer). The 10 hormones which can bind the various receptors are depicted in boxes above the receptors. Their binding specificities are indicated by the arrows.

Healthy normal adults secrete on average 0.48 ml of saliva per minute7 which translates to 28.8 ml per hour or 691 ml per 24 hours. The average concentration of EGF in whole saliva (not just the protein fraction) is 0.0512 nanograms per ml8; so the total salivary EGF produced in a 24 hour period would equal on average 35.3 nanograms.

Betacellulin: A Hormone that Binds the Epidermal Growth Factor Receptor

The EGF receptor is a promiscuous receptor in that it doesn’t just bind a single hormone (EGF), but rather binds a large family of hormones including transforming growth factor alpha (TGF-?), heparin binding EGF(HB-EGF), epiregulin (EPR), amphiregulin (AR), neuregulins 1, 2, 3 and 4 (NRG1, NRG2, NRG3, NRG4) and betacellulin (BTC)9. The key hormone to remember here is betacellulin because it is found in cow’s milk in high concentrations. Betacellulin is a very stable hormone in that it is not degraded by the heat of pasteurization and is even found in high concentrations in cheese10.

When you drink cow’s milk or eat cheese, you are, in effect, dosing yourself with betacellulin. You might think that protein shearing enzymes in your gut would breakdown betacellulin and other hormones belonging to the EGF hormonal family before they can get to the gut EGF receptor. However, this is not the case, as cow’s milk contains peptidase inhibitors which allow EGF to remain intact even in human digestive juices of the stomach and small intestine11. Remember that betacellulin can bind the luminally expressed EGF receptor in the gut, and can thereby enter circulation via the same mechanism that the salivary hormone, EGF, does.

So what – what if a little betacellulin from cow’s milk gets into your bloodstream – does it matter? You bet it matters. A liter of whole milk (633 kcal) contains 1,930 nano-grams of betacellulin10 whereas the amount of EGF that your salivary glands secrete is only 35.3 ng per day. The binding affinity of betacellulin to the EGF receptor is greater than that for EGF; consequently betacellulin can displace EGF from the EGF receptor9. The amount of betacellulin that you get from drinking even a single cup of milk (457 nanograms) has the capacity to stimulate the EGF receptor 10 times more than what normally would occur during a 24 hour period from EGF in saliva.

The Epidermal Growth Factor Receptor and Cancer

So, what’s wrong with increased stimulation of the EGF receptor? First off, when a member of the EGF hormonal family binds the EGF receptor it sets off a chemical cascade that ultimately causes more EGF receptors to be synthesized. This process is known as up-regulation. Higher concentrations of EGF up-regulate the EGF-R12, 13. So, by ingesting supplemental betacellulin from cow’s milk, the number of EGF receptors may increase in the gut and in peripheral tissues bearing the EGF receptor. A higher betacellulin concentration in the bloodstream along with increased numbers of EGF receptors causes an increase in signaling (flux) through the EGF receptor pathway.

Overexpression of the EGF receptor and hence increased flux through this pathway occurs in a wide variety of cancers including: breast, colon, prostate, ovarian, lung, pancreatic, bladder, stomach, and head and neck cancers13, 14, 15. Higher concentrations of the EGF receptor increases cancer recurrence, reduces survival and increases tumor progression and development 13. Activation of the EGF receptor by the EGF family of hormones, including betacellulin, promotes cancer by 1) increasing cell proliferation, 2) decreasing programmed cell death (apoptosis), 3) increasing tumor formation and progression and, 4) increasing growth of blood vessels (angiogenesis) within tumors14.

The U.S. Food and Drug administration has recently approved experimental trials of pharmaceuticals (gefitinib, erlotinib, cetuximab) which can halt or slow various cancers by blocking the EGF receptor signaling14, 15. Perhaps a better strategy would be to stop drinking betacellulin containing cow’s milk which may over stimulate EGF receptor signaling in the first place. Although observational epidemiological studies cannot show cause and effect between diet and disease, they suggest that milk drinking and dairy consumption is linked to a variety of cancers including: ovarian16-19, breast20-26, colon20, 27-29, lung20, 30-32, stomach20, 33, pancreatic34-36, and prostate37-40.

Milk, indeed, may not be good for everybody, particularly cancer patients or those with a family history of cancer.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: majormark on February 21, 2010, 03:01:46 pm
... I make this butter myself.

How many liters of milk it takes you to get 1 Kg of butter on average?

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: RawZi on February 21, 2010, 04:49:10 pm
    If a person with advanced cancer wishes to recover, and raw meat is hard for them to swallow, and raw meat smoothies is too shocking an idea for them, would you preclude homemade grass-fed raw kefir shakes?  They certainly shouldn't go to a doctor, as doctors insist upon bottled or canned formula made from milk for the patients every day.  Are your "Hazards of Dairy" a study on A2 or A1 milk?  Is it about raw?

But all dairy has some drawbacks (from the paleodiet update) :

 Hazards of Dairy

I recently spoke at a conference at Harvard organized by Walter Willet, focused on dairy. As the science unfolds, we continue to uncover more information that the National Dairy Council is not going to like. It turns out that there may be much greater concerns than its high insulinemic response, recombinant bovine growth hormone, casein protein, or lactose intolerance. ....

Milk, indeed, may not be good for everybody, particularly cancer patients or those with a family history of cancer.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 21, 2010, 09:03:09 pm
All these studies they are undoubtedly of an extreme importance they are. They help us to understand and explain those or that natural events and processes. But all in all they are just the theories. And no matter how accurate and precise such theories may be they will never match or even come near the in vivo experiences. So for me the results demonstrated in practice, under real life circumstances, will always remain by far the most important, reliable and conclusive evidence. And in this case I don’t have to look any further that at the health and vitality of certain African tribes such as Masai, Fellani and Samburu who consume anyway from 60 to 90% of their diet as unpasteurized dairy.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on February 21, 2010, 09:17:38 pm
How many liters of milk it takes you to get 1 Kg of butter on average?

I do not know exactly. I make the butter from sour cream, not from the fresh milk. In order to make one kg of butter I need around 2.5 litres of sour cream. Depending on the breed of the cow and some other factors that amount of sour cream can be derived from 15 – 20 litres of a good milk I think.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on March 11, 2010, 06:06:10 am
Yuri do you currently have puffy/swollen eyes/eyelids and dark under eyes? The way I got rid of this is by simply drastically limiting animal foods and adding much more plant foods.I am convinced that these symptoms are kidney related problem associated with too much protein in the blood/urine.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: miles on March 11, 2010, 08:08:55 am
pc, maybe you were not having enough fat/water.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: invisible on March 11, 2010, 10:00:48 am
pc, maybe you were not having enough fat/water.

It's in his head. Durianrider's charm and humour or something convinced him.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on March 14, 2010, 11:33:25 pm
What kind of plant foods and how much?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on March 15, 2010, 02:50:10 am
So what are you going to eat now yuri? You must know by now that all this meat and fat hasn't done you any good right? And please tells what you think caused all this so nobody else gets hurt. Just regular fruits and veggie juices, for me specifically beet juice. 
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 15, 2010, 05:01:46 am
I don't know the source of your dark circles under the eyes, but some common causes cited in links found with a little searching are deficiencies in vitamin K2 or iron. Vitamin A is also sometimes cited. It's strange, though, because if you're eating a raw animal-based diet, you would think you'd be getting these nutrients from pasture-fed organs, red meats and raw dairy.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on March 15, 2010, 05:26:43 pm
I don't know the source of your dark circles under the eyes, but some common causes cited in links found with a little searching are deficiencies in vitamin K2 or iron. Vitamin A is also sometimes cited. It's strange, though, because if you're eating a raw animal-based diet, you would think you'd be getting these nutrients from pasture-fed organs, red meats and raw dairy.
  Yuri, last I checked, can't get hold of 100% grassfed meats.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on March 15, 2010, 09:43:18 pm
 Yuri, last I checked, can't get hold of 100% grassfed meats.

Well, of course I should have mentioned this before but I forgot somehow. As I found out back in November the lamb/mutton that I was eating is 100% grass fed organic. I suspected it could be the case but never had the proper opportunity to verify that. Finally I had a lengthy conversation with the farmer. Initially I asked him how much grain and other stuff he feeds to his muttons. After he replied none I tried to explain him that it is simply impossible. I told him that I had read in certain veterinary books that animals require at least some grains ( ;D). But he took a strong stand. Then he showed me the pictures of his beautiful farm and the green pastures. He even invited me to visit these places but I never had the energy to do that. Anyways I was more than totally satisfied with that.

With that said I am totally convinced that during winter months he feeds his animals some small amounts of grains and probably starches.

As for the quality of dairy that I am getting it is truly divine. I am buying it from one milkman in whom I have absolute trust. He owns only one cow and treats her very well. He has lots of land and stores ups huge amounts of hay for the winter.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ForTheHunt on March 15, 2010, 09:54:50 pm
Well, of course I should have mentioned this before but I forgot somehow. As I found out back in November the lamb/mutton that I was eating is 100% grass fed organic. I suspected it could be the case but never had the proper opportunity to verify that. Finally I had a lengthy conversation with the farmer. Initially I asked him how much grain and other stuff he feeds to his muttons. After he replied none I tried to explain him that it is simply impossible. I told him that I had read in certain veterinary books that animals require at least some grains ( ;D). But he took a strong stand. Then he showed me the pictures of his beautiful farm and the green pastures. He even invited me to visit these places but I never had the energy to do that. Anyways I was more than totally satisfied with that.

With that said I am totally convinced that during winter months he feeds his animals some small amounts of grains and probably starches.

As for the quality of dairy that I am getting it is truly divine. I am buying it from one milkman in whom I have absolute trust. He owns only one cow and treats her very well. He has lots of land and stores ups huge amounts of hay for the winter.

What the hell are you talking about? Sheep don't require grains at all.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on March 15, 2010, 10:00:12 pm
I don't know the source of your dark circles under the eyes, but some common causes cited in links found with a little searching are deficiencies in vitamin K2 or iron. Vitamin A is also sometimes cited. It's strange, though, because if you're eating a raw animal-based diet, you would think you'd be getting these nutrients from pasture-fed organs, red meats and raw dairy.

I suffer from severe chronic pernicious anemia (http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C364379.html) and have all the typical symptoms. Even my lab results (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg19958/#msg19958) prove that.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on March 15, 2010, 10:12:09 pm
What the hell are you talking about? Sheep don't require grains at all.

Don't you worry, I know... Have you noticed that broad GRIN??? I bluffed to find out the truth.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ys on March 15, 2010, 10:53:47 pm
Quote
What the hell are you talking about? Sheep don't require grains at all

very true they don't require grains, but they are fed grains to fatten them up.  very wide-spread practice.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on March 16, 2010, 12:39:28 am
So your blaming all your troubles on your consumption of grain fed meats?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: KD on March 16, 2010, 12:46:00 am
So your blaming all your troubles on your consumption of grain fed meats?

dude, can you not even follow a thread?

you are very quick to push whatever agenda it is that mirrors your limited experience.

maybe ask him what he thinks instead of some kind of know-it-all exclamation.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on March 16, 2010, 01:15:04 am
Yes I am following,  I didn't understand why Tyler wrote that, that's why I asked the question. My agenda is to find out the truth, and I still have doubts about this raw meat thing, I mean who wouldn't after I myself and numerous other people on this forum suffer kidney problems. I also don't suscribe to the silly theory that we  cooked our meat all this time because we liked it so much or because we got addicted to it. There is a reason why true carnivores stomach acid is much stronger than ours. I'm much more believe we began cooking so our stomachs  don't do as much work, heat denatured proteins and so does stomach acid. I should probably find some proof to support my theory that undigested proteins cause injury to the body. Sure I understand that some people feel better with raw meat versus cooked but if raw meat really gave more energy and more health, then no culture today would be cooking their meat. 

   
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: KD on March 16, 2010, 01:44:10 am
there is a difference between having skepticism and assuming other peoples issues prove your conclusions prior to actually engaging with the particulars of the issue. If you feeling strongly about the points you just brought up, bring them up in general discussions, and don't pretend to troubleshoot other peoples problems. If he said something like "I suspect there is something wrong with my kidneys", chime in with your anecdotes. but he said he was medically tested for pernicious anemia, which has nothing to do with kidney function, or raw meat eating unless one really believes that a 80+% sugar diet is the way to correct such things.

How do I know this, because I've in the past has the same diagnosis after years of raw veganism. Now, raw veganism might not even be the cause, but it is related to b-12 deficiency and other absorption issues such as candida. Are there other protocols other than just eating meat and fat that could resolve this for Yuri? Possibly, for me I did have I think 2 b-12 shots and took pills for awhile and that seemed to give a jump start to the situation that resolved itself (at least medically) with animal foods. I'm still dealing with the fungal aspects, but I think last time I checked my b-12 was fine. Even so, I have issues with myself being able to diagnose or troubleshoot such a problem without at least hearing what he thinks.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on March 16, 2010, 01:54:57 am
He has anemia because his digestive system is screwed up and has kidney issues because of his diet, end of story.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: KD on March 16, 2010, 02:14:08 am
Its the reverse with anemia, but either way it is irrelevant, because even if his problems are "due to his diet" you nor I are in a position to diagnose his problems.

Quote

pc701
 I used to do paleo but quit
« on: August 26, 2009, 05:00:40 PM »


hello, just some comments

I went on the paleo diet (i was not overweight 5,11 155lbs) and found it hard sticking to it. My whole point here is that one should eat what one wants to eat ...and i KNOW that people hate being on this diet because they miss all the foods that they ate for most of their life that are the mainstay in multiple cultures/societies (corn,potaotes,dairy,sugar bread.etc).

What i would recommend to people is eat what you want ,your taste buds are an indication of what you need for your body i believe..If you dislike eating salads and eating meat everyday then DONT DO IT.

TRY THIS/HOW ABOUT THIS:...EAT ANY FOODS YOU LIKE BUT JUST EAT ONE MEAL A DAY AND AT NIGHT...along with...INTERMITTENT FASTING/FASTING ...say 2-3 days a week (for people who want to loose weight perhaps or just for those who want a change)

TIP: i believe paleo hunters only really did eat at night/past noon with the fire and meat roasting and 1 meal a day and not at least 3 meals a day like most people do. also, they intermittently fasted (they did not catch game/meat everyday right...)

Just my comments and opinion.

http://cavemanforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=f16f12944b4609a224273ee03a3e724d&topic=1517.0
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on March 16, 2010, 02:16:34 am
You proved nothing KD except that people change.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: MrBBQ on March 16, 2010, 04:23:16 am
Yuri, would you say that you meet your protein requirements correctly, given that you exercise, or even over-exercise? You seem to have little adipose tissue these days - is that optimal? How's your electrolyte balance - any cramps?

I'm interested in this thread, mainly because I am studying kidney challenge myself with the inclusion of plenty of meat+fat...However, it does not mean that I'm scaremongering...

Initially, I seem to remember that PaleoPhil resolved long-standing nephritis with a raw zero-carb diet...Am I right PaleoPhil? If this kind of stress on the kidneys (clearing serum nitrogen etc.) is damaging, how could PaleoPhil resolve nephritis?

Also, all this talk of kidneys here and nobody experimented with nephrolithiasis dissolution through herbalism. I have bought all the roots/herbs I need now for the cleanse and I will subject myself to it next week, which should be interesting.

The question would be - why do some people have kidney challenge and others not? Do the dark circles indicate the irreversible destruction of the nephrons or simply inefficiency? Is the gravel in the glomerulus (formed by various precipitates) obstructing passage of plasma filtrates?

pc701, you seem to be a self-appointed clinician and yet you've not actually demonstrated much knowledge of physiology. Naturally, I appreciate your submissions, but with people only benefitting from meat+fat around here, you will have to be more convincing about your argument, otherwise you're implicitly calling the others liars. Also, hypothesise that fruits aren't in season and you're struggling to gather, yet there's plenty of hunting to be had - what's the call of the wild, survival or kidney ache?

So what's say some of us participate in a kidney cleanse and report back later?

If anyone wants to talk kidney filtering capacity, nephrons or anything else, I'm interested...

Also, liver function affects the kidneys, so wonder how many precipitates have formed in the many bile ducts over the toxic years - city dwelling is a bastard for getting bile to precipitate out of solution and in your nice little liver lobes/tubes, the main ducts and the gallbladder. Like I always say, these things don't clear out on their own from diet...

Much to learn...With all that meat-eating and nephron-trashing, it makes one wonder how our ancient ancestors survived (said with some facetiousness). I hate propaganda...All diets are shit, all humans are shit and the universe is going to implode, hehe!

Too much thinking and not enough intuition...Who's eating bones and organs every day to balance out those muscle meats? Who's eating mixed game from large and small animals?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: MrBBQ on March 16, 2010, 04:30:38 am
Another thing - is food moving well through the GI tract, with a daily bowel movement, at least?

Also, how is the basal metabolic rate? Did you ever measure body temperature upon waking (like via armpit or bumhole, hehe)?

How is your thyroid/adrenals? Any greasy stools or pain radiating up to right shoulder blade upon eating fats?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on March 16, 2010, 05:13:32 am
Yuri, would you say that you meet your protein requirements correctly, given that you exercise, or even over-exercise? You seem to have little adipose tissue these days - is that optimal? How's your electrolyte balance - any cramps?

I think my ratios are fine. The problem is that I may not be digesting the foods properly and absorbing the nutrients efficiently. You are actually not what you eat but rather what you absorb.

My belly/waist fat is not normal, especially if you consider that I am long-term zero-carber.

I do have muscle cramps.

is food moving well through the GI tract, with a daily bowel movement, at least?
No, they are not.

Also, how is the basal metabolic rate? Did you ever measure body temperature upon waking (like via armpit or bumhole, hehe)?
Around 97 in the mornings. I am Thermal chameleon - hot when it's warm and cold when it's cool. My thermoregulation is poor though.



How is your thyroid/adrenals? Any greasy stools or pain radiating up to right shoulder blade upon eating fats?

I have low metabolic energy, the cause is either adrenal fatigue or low thyroid function.

No pain related problems with fats.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: MrBBQ on March 16, 2010, 05:35:51 am
I prefer to say you're not what you intake, you're what you uptake...

Well, I couldn't really comprehend the timeline of your photos - is the "now" you the one with a belly or the one that is carved flesh, sinew and bone?!

Do you eat raw or low-heat dessicated thyroid? Also, do you have a good source of carbohydrates? Have you ever considered hi-carb, hi-fat, enough-protein approach, along with glandular support from raw sweetbreads? How about anti-inflammatory glycine from bone meal/broth?

Can you tolerate coconut oil, and do you know about its great effect on the thyroid and metabolism? The medium-chain fats in coconut oil (much more so than in butter) are uptaken without emulsification with bile salts.

Have you seen the anecdotes about restoring optimal peristalsis by increasing bile output? Do you consider the potential that you have severe congestion of the hepatic lobes and ducts, even though it's sub-clinical/asymptomatic?

I think that my dark circles and kidney stress are also in the context of more systemic problems, which can be exacerbated by our original diet of meat+fat.

Our other contemporaries have braved different conditions and stuck with raw meat+fat to ultimately resolve some of their transient challenges (Tyler, Lex, PaleoPhil, goodsamaritan etc.), so it's worth experimentation.

Are you unfavourable towards the ancient shamanic art of herbalism?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: MrBBQ on March 16, 2010, 05:43:00 am
Also, is it through dogma or some favourable results that you're sticking with RZC? Our other friends have then decided that RZC is never going to be optimal for them (you have seen the experiences of others, right?).

Sugars complexed in whole foods (namely fruit) can be a good thing and it's natural to develop good glucose tolerance (according to some scholars).
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: MrBBQ on March 16, 2010, 06:00:04 am
So thinking about it, you have a damaged metabolism and instead of generating heat (a la high BMR), you're driving the excess calories into abdominal adipose deposits...

Repair the metabolism (ultimately, the cellular metabolism, including mitochondria) and you transform the adipose into radiant heat...

Thyroid, coconut oil, carbs...Try it, you might like it...;-)) Restoring any kind of glucose tolerance after RZC would be tough in the first meals though (and quite discouraging) - that would be transient though...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: cherimoya_kid on March 16, 2010, 08:37:57 am
Sure I understand that some people feel better with raw meat versus cooked but if raw meat really gave more energy and more health, then no culture today would be cooking their meat. 

   

We have been discussing your banning for several days now.  This comment is quite likely to put us over the edge.  Consider this a chance to reign yourself in before an official warning.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: KD on March 16, 2010, 09:24:13 am
You proved nothing KD except that people change.

from the time-frame of 6 mo ago, your current dietary practice, and assuming that your raw experimentation came some time after this post, its means that it is pretty clear to all that your theories are composed of bits and pieces of misreading others, as opposed to any significant experiences of your own.

esp. in regards to long term effects raw protein consumption and kidney issues which seems to be your main trick of 'expertise'. based on what weeks of experimentation? I have no personal biases towards RPD being a one sized fits all miracle diet, but I've been on diet forums long enough to tell when people give non-experiential info like its the prophecy, which is tolerable to a point until they try to play expert on individuals trying to get well.  The idea that kidney damage exists within a vacuum of health in raw meat consumption in some individuals and not others is completely absurd. If there is damage, clearly its base is in some pre-existing issue. Whether raw meat and fat is the appropriate cure or exacerbated by such for yourself or Yuri is what is debatable, if done intelligently and with some actual science, or at the very least long-term personal experiences on various approaches.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: pc701 on March 16, 2010, 09:40:45 am
Maybe I should of  post my doubts in the hot topics section. Anyways, i think all hunter gatherers cooked
 their meat for a logical reason, they followed their instincts, they are very wise,  they ate certain parts raw and certain cooked, they did what worked and a 100% raw meat diet they did not eat because they recognized it did not work. They passed on generation after generation what worked, what makes healthy goodlooking babies, if raw meat digested easier made them stronger taller then they would take that info and apply it, but that never happend. And the reason why some can fully digest the raw protein and some can't is because stronger digestion/ stomach acid. I trust our past and current Paleolithic ancestors such as the Khoi/ San people,  Indian buffalo hunters, Amazonian tribes more so than this recent fad experiment in all raw diet, they have the true knowledge, wisdom and experience. If we all had the stomach acid of a lion we could all eat pounds of meat a day and become giants, but we don't have that and therefore some of us have to resort to cooking our meat. Of course raw meat/animal foods can be healing, but i have doubts whether it's doable longterm. That's cool if you decide to kick me off, but I say these things so others don't get possibly hurt and to read a second opinion. Even neaderthals cooked their meats. I'm just saying that our ancestors/ Paleolithic peoples could not have not gotten it wrong. True, maybe the optimal diet is a all raw diet, but if it was then I don't see why our ancestors would not have done it.    
 
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: klowcarb on March 16, 2010, 09:59:31 am
I don't really see dark circles, just a little redness around the cornea. I have that too, but I have always had that. It is not very noticeable.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on March 16, 2010, 10:00:15 am
PC701,

The whole point of raw paleo diet is to debunk your position.

That humans have made a WRONG TURN in the arena of cooking.
Just as fruits are meant to be eaten raw.
Meat is meant to be eaten raw.
- the hard parts to scavenge nutrition from cooked.
Vegetables need processing to be eaten whether fermenting, cooking or juicing.

Now that in the 21st century we know better because we can put our minds to work with internet communications, we are solving the puzzle and healing ourselves.

In my book, we are heading to towards more optimal health than at anytime in history or pre-history because of our combined global knowledge... if we can overcome air pollution in our cities... we will solve that too.

We are not merely imitating some paleo past, we are learning from the past and improving every year.  This is 21st century raw paleo dieting and lifestyle.  We pass this on to the next generation, and they will get better at it.  Don't let the "paleo" connotation fool you that we are trying to be primitive.  This is all progress.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on March 16, 2010, 06:36:54 pm
Maybe I should of  post my doubts in the hot topics section. Anyways, i think all hunter gatherers cooked
 their meat for a logical reason, they followed their instincts, they are very wise,  they ate certain parts raw and certain cooked, they did what worked and a 100% raw meat diet they did not eat because they recognized it did not work. They passed on generation after generation what worked, what makes healthy goodlooking babies, if raw meat digested easier made them stronger taller then they would take that info and apply it, but that never happend. And the reason why some can fully digest the raw protein and some can't is because stronger digestion/ stomach acid. I trust our past and current Paleolithic ancestors such as the Khoi/ San people,  Indian buffalo hunters, Amazonian tribes more so than this recent fad experiment in all raw diet, they have the true knowledge, wisdom and experience. If we all had the stomach acid of a lion we could all eat pounds of meat a day and become giants, but we don't have that and therefore some of us have to resort to cooking our meat. Of course raw meat/animal foods can be healing, but i have doubts whether it's doable longterm. That's cool if you decide to kick me off, but I say these things so others don't get possibly hurt and to read a second opinion. Even neaderthals cooked their meats. I'm just saying that our ancestors/ Paleolithic peoples could not have not gotten it wrong. True, maybe the optimal diet is a all raw diet, but if it was then I don't see why our ancestors would not have done it.    
 
 This is a mind-boggingly stupid opinion as it blindly  assumes that anything that humans do for long periods must therefore be good for them. The fact that modern humans routinely do harmful things such as smoking tobacco, taking heroin or taking life-threatening risks re extreme sports, carrying out circumcision rites etc., makes it pretty clear that humans can easily carry out harmful practices for endless  millenia, whether or not they are aware of the negative consequences of those actions, so  the above troll's opinion is simply laughable. And the notion that HGs like the Khoi/San people  are somehow wiser than any other human is just another example of the foolishness in believing in the ridiculous mythical Noble Savage theory. And strictly speaking, the raw, palaeolithic diet is much older than any other diet  as it was practised  all the way up till 250,000 years ago when cooking was invented, it's the modern balanced diet which is the fad experiment. Plus, we are the only species to cook its food, indicating just how weird and faddish humans are, at least as regards cooking.

As for the claims re needing the stomach-acid of a lion in order to digest raw meats, that's also fundamentally retarded as a notion, as there are plenty of raw omnivorous wild animals who don't possess the stomach-acid/digestive system  of a carnivore, yet easily manage to eat raw meats with no issues.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on March 16, 2010, 11:48:38 pm
 
Well, I couldn't really comprehend the timeline of your photos - is the "now" you the one with a belly or the one that is carved flesh, sinew and bone?!
Those where I am FAT were taken this past Sunday. My weight is normal but due to decrease in muscle mass I have the extra fat.

Do you eat raw or low-heat dessicated thyroid? Also, do you have a good source of carbohydrates? Have you ever considered hi-carb, hi-fat, enough-protein approach, along with glandular support from raw sweetbreads? How about anti-inflammatory glycine from bone meal/broth?
No, I can’t get raw thyroid. The farmers mistakenly believe that thymus is actually the thyroid. Even meat inspection experts claim it is the same thing. I have no pictures of real thyroid to prove they are wrong.

I don’t understand what you mean by “good source of carbohydrates”.  In winter I can get honey and starches. Fruits are available from late June till early October.

Currently I am not in a position to consider any approach due to nonexistent digestion. I can only theorize or speculate.
Why kind of benefit may I expect from eating raw sweetbreads?
Bone broth may be a good idea.

Can you tolerate coconut oil, and do you know about its great effect on the thyroid and metabolism? The medium-chain fats in coconut oil (much more so than in butter) are uptaken without emulsification with bile salts.
No, I can’t tolerate it. Moreover it is not available here. Besides it is yet to be proven that coconut oil may have any healing effect on the thyroid. Is Coconut Oil Really a Thyroid Cure? (http://thyroid.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=thyroid&cdn=health&tm=24&f=00&su=p284.9.336.ip_p726.5.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=1&bts=0&zu=http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/woliner1.htm)

Have you seen the anecdotes about restoring optimal peristalsis by increasing bile output? Do you consider the potential that you have severe congestion of the hepatic lobes and ducts, even though it's sub-clinical/asymptomatic?
Everything is possible. I have no idea.

Are you unfavourable towards the ancient shamanic art of herbalism?
I don’t really have the energy to dig deeper into any alternative cures.

Also, is it through dogma or some favourable results that you're sticking with RZC? Our other friends have then decided that RZC is never going to be optimal for them (you have seen the experiences of others, right?).
 
I just wanted to make it through the winter without carbs. Naturally speaking there are not much of them under the snow out there.

No Scotty, I haven’t seen other’s experiences.

Thank you for your input ;)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: aunaturale on March 17, 2010, 04:40:18 am
Yuri , How's the acid-resuscitation regimen coming along?


Hope all is well man
Luke
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: MrBBQ on March 18, 2010, 09:58:01 pm
I've just bought some "Swedish Bitters", which I will take just before meals to try to stoke up my digestive juices/fire.

Funnily enough, when I was Googling about the bitters with relevance to ketogenic/low-carb diets, I found this site and in particular, this page: http://www.mynchen.demon.co.uk/Marchant/Marchant's_story.htm#Marchant's%20story (http://www.mynchen.demon.co.uk/Marchant/Marchant's_story.htm#Marchant's%20story)

The boy is very specifically (not through choice) on a ketogenic diet for fits/seizures - note the dark shadows under the eyes, coincidence? ;-# It makes one wonder...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Hans89 on March 18, 2010, 10:10:31 pm
@MrBBQ

I'm interested in the Swedish Bitters, do you make them with alcohol as traditionally done?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: MrBBQ on March 19, 2010, 02:41:44 am
I would make an ethanolic extraction (maybe from alcohol of non-gluten source) of the fresh/dried herbs, although I do not have the time to expend/wait, so I just buy it from a mass producer.

The only tinctures I'd prep myself would be fresh cannabis flower (great as a sublingual spray for getting loaded anywhere you can't smoke a joint, plus no heat-mediated toxicity) or some obscure Chinese herbs where my local herbalist is unable to deliver.

Otherwise, let the trials commence...

I stll feel a little bit dubious after seeing keto-boy's black shadows/edema...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on March 19, 2010, 08:09:53 pm
I would make an ethanolic extraction (maybe from alcohol of non-gluten source) of the fresh/dried herbs, although I do not have the time to expend/wait, so I just buy it from a mass producer.

The only tinctures I'd prep myself would be fresh cannabis flower (great as a sublingual spray for getting loaded anywhere you can't smoke a joint, plus no heat-mediated toxicity) or some obscure Chinese herbs where my local herbalist is unable to deliver.

Otherwise, let the trials commence...
I wonder why bother with all those tinctures? The stomach responds to bitters before they arrive in it. When bitter flavor touches the tongue, it stimulates the exocrine and endocrine glands. These, in turn, stimulate the digestive juices to the stomach, liver, pancreas and duodenum. The flow of these juices improves the appetite, digestion, and assimilation. The stronger the bitter flavor of the food or herb, the more potent the action.

The digestive juices appear in the intestines within five minutes after a stimulation of the bitter receptors of the tongue and remain there for two or three hours. Why not just put some bitter herbs (http://www.allnaturalinfo.com/bitter_herbs.htm) under your tongue for 5-10 minutes before and after the meals?

I stll feel a little bit dubious after seeing keto-boy's black shadows/edema...

ZC is not a ketogenic diet just because it excludes the carbs. Mind that most likely NOBODY on this forum is a true ketogenic dieter.

Certain macronutrients may either promote or prevent a ketogenic state, depending whether a given nutrient tend to raise insulin (anti-ketogenic) or glucagon (pro-ketogenic). Here is the ketogenic ratio:
Ketogenic --- K --- 0.9 fat + 0.46 protein.
Anti-ketogenic --- AK --- 1.0 carbohydrate + 0.1 fat + 0.58 protein.

This actually means that protein has both ketogenic effects (46%) and anti-ketogenic effects (58%). This reflects the fact that 58% of dietary protein will appear in the bloodstream as glucose, raising insulin and inhibiting ketogenesis. Consequently protein must be restricted to some degree on a ketogenic diet as excessive protein intake will generate too much glucose, impairing or preventing ketosis.  

Fat is primarily ketogenic (90%) but also has a slight anti-ketogenic effect (10%). This represents the fact that ten percent of the total fat grams ingested will appear in the bloodstream as glucose (via conversion of the glycerol portion of triglycerides).

For the treatment of epilepsy, the ratio of K to AK must be at least 1.5 for a meal to be considered ketogenic. Typically, this results in a diet containing 4 grams of fat for each gram of protein and carbohydrate, called a 4:1 diet.

This is what Lyle McDonald says about it in "The Ketogenic Diet".
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on March 19, 2010, 08:32:37 pm
you need a girlfriend.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on March 19, 2010, 10:50:39 pm
you need a girlfriend.

I agree 200% or 300%
You need 2 or 3 girl friends.
That will bring out the muscular you back.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: michaelwh on March 21, 2010, 03:17:29 am
Those where I am FAT were taken this past Sunday. My weight is normal but due to decrease in muscle mass I have the extra fat.
No, I can’t get raw thyroid. The farmers mistakenly believe that thymus is actually the thyroid. Even meat inspection experts claim it is the same thing. I have no pictures of real thyroid to prove they are wrong.

If you really want to get hold of a thyroid, (or any other organ), you can always go to a park and catch a small animal (rabbit, squirrel, etc) or bird (duck, goose, etc).
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Cosmo on March 21, 2010, 09:40:29 pm
If you really want to get hold of a thyroid, (or any other organ), you can always go to a park and catch a small animal (rabbit, squirrel, etc) or bird (duck, goose, etc).

 ;D ;D ;D

Hey Michael, have you ever been to Ukraine, where Yuri lives? I've been there and haven't seen any animals in the parks except pigeons. And it's very hard to catch them without being arrested by ukrainian police (miliczia). >D ;)
Your advice made my day, thanks!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Hans89 on March 21, 2010, 11:34:37 pm
I've thought about catching me a rabbit, but it doesn't seem so easy, granted they are very alert and they can run fast... especially in the undergrowth where they quickly disappear.

Any hints?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on March 22, 2010, 02:04:03 am
Traditional Newfoundland women all learned to snare rabbits...
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Hans89 on March 22, 2010, 02:26:42 am
Traditional Newfoundland women all learned to snare rabbits...

So that means I should marry one?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: William on March 22, 2010, 09:25:58 am
So that means I should marry one?

AFAIK they no longer exist. You can still get rabbit wire though.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 22, 2010, 11:07:48 am
...Initially, I seem to remember that PaleoPhil resolved long-standing nephritis with a raw zero-carb diet...Am I right PaleoPhil? If this kind of stress on the kidneys (clearing serum nitrogen etc.) is damaging, how could PaleoPhil resolve nephritis?
Close, I had chronic nephrolithiasis (kidney stones--most of them very small) and chronic urinary tract infections. The biggest help seemed to be when I cut out gluten, though my urinary flow improved further when I went ZC. The possible concerns I developed since going ZC are bubbly urine (possible return of past intermittent proteinuria?) and low urine pH. No other new problems have developed and those are only theoretical risks that haven't yet caused any actual problems I'm aware of. All my other health issues have improved either a little or a lot, though not all are resolved.

Quote
Also, all this talk of kidneys here and nobody experimented with nephrolithiasis dissolution through herbalism.I have bought all the roots/herbs I need now for the cleanse and I will subject myself to it next week, which should be interesting.
Actually, I think Lex reported trying pretty much everything in the book, and I've tried some herbal products in the past with no noticeable benefits, other than that ones with senna in them provided a mild laxative effect.

Quote
The question would be - why do some people have kidney challenge and others not?
I don't know. There may be multiple factors involved.

Quote
people only benefitting from meat+fat around here
Some have reported benefiting from larger inclusion of plant-foods, even though I haven't.

I suffer from severe chronic pernicious anemia (http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C364379.html) and have all the typical symptoms. Even my lab results (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg19958/#msg19958) prove that.
Is pernicious anemia also associated with dark circles under the eyes? Did your physician suggest any explanations? Are you receiving treatment for your pernicious anemia, such as sublingual or injected B12?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: KD on March 22, 2010, 11:16:02 am
The possible concerns I developed since going ZC are bubbly urine (possible return of past intermittent proteinuria?) and low urine pH. No other new problems have developed and those are only theoretical risks that haven't yet caused any actual problems I'm aware of. All my other health issues have improved either a little or a lot, though not all are resolved.

Do you write about this somewhere on your journal? my urine after over 2 months VLC is like a bubble factory, whether it is clear or dark. Is there a concern, is this common with ketosis?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on March 25, 2010, 07:35:42 pm
Is pernicious anemia also associated with dark circles under the eyes? Did your physician suggest any explanations? Are you receiving treatment for your pernicious anemia, such as sublingual or injected B12?

Anemia may be the first recognized manifestation of an endocrine disorder.

In hypothyroidism, anemia may be caused by impaired haemoglobin synthesis (http://www.drlowe.com/QandA/askdrlowe/anemia.htm), impaired intestinal iron and folate absorption or B12 deficiency.

In Addison`s disease there is also a decrease on plasma volume and hemoconcentration as a consequence, which keep normal hemoglobin levels.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on April 24, 2010, 01:45:30 am
Recently I noticed a sudden onset of gingivitis with a rapid aggravation of gingival inflammation. I'd appreciate if you could help me identify the cause.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ys on April 24, 2010, 02:30:10 am
I am seeing progressive gum recession as well.  They are not bleeding but I do not like where it is going.  There is definitely something missing in our diet or maybe something too much.

I eat about 1-2 fruits daily and raw organs regularly so Vit C issue should be out of question.  Everything else (A,D, iron, zinc, etc. ) checks out as well.  Not sure what is missing.  Maybe something is too much?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: majormark on April 24, 2010, 02:44:59 am

In AV's book it says something about lactose intolerance and recommends avoiding milk if milk+honey does not work.

The recommendation is to drink raw ginger root and honey mixed with mineral water and that it takes at least three months.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ys on April 24, 2010, 03:04:49 am
hmmmmmmm...

i do not consume any lactose containing products.  maybe little cheese now and then, cheese does not have any meaningful amounts of lactose.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: majormark on April 24, 2010, 04:10:51 am

Than it may be one of the other possible issues listed there, like mineral deficiency or low blood protein&sugar levels.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 24, 2010, 04:57:19 am
I am seeing progressive gum recession as well.  They are not bleeding but I do not like where it is going.  There is definitely something missing in our diet or maybe something too much.

I eat about 1-2 fruits daily and raw organs regularly so Vit C issue should be out of question.  Everything else (A,D, iron, zinc, etc. ) checks out as well.  Not sure what is missing.  Maybe something is too much?

You didn't mention vitamin K2 (preferably the mk4 animal-source version), magnesium or calcium. Vitamin K2 seems to be especially important for dental health, according to multiple sources.

My experience re: unheated raw honey and acidic foods like vinegar and citrus fruits is that they undermine my dental health, rather than help it like Aajonus claims. YMMV.

Anyone else here trying mk4 K2 supplements for dental health?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ys on April 24, 2010, 05:42:54 am
According to PANU having hard cheese here and there, eggs, and organs should be enough for K2.

Calcium, magnesium, Lex does not seem to have extra need for those.  Why should I?  He took his body through so many years of abuse and it appears that all meat/fat diet is pretty sufficient.

Or take any pure carnivore, I doubt their calcium/magnesium needs are that much different.

Another thing is my calcium blood levels are pretty high.

So what gives?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 24, 2010, 06:04:27 am
According to PANU having hard cheese here and there, eggs, and organs should be enough for K2.
Yeah, except that supplementing with K2 softgels does seem to be reducing my dental plaque, and Richard Nikoley of Free the Animal also reports this.

Quote
Calcium, magnesium, Lex does not seem to have extra need for those.  Why should I?  He took his body through so many years of abuse and it appears that all meat/fat diet is pretty sufficient.

Or take any pure carnivore, I doubt their calcium/magnesium needs are that much different.
I don't know; you may not need it, but different people appear to have different needs, from what I've seen reported here and elsewhere, so it's possible Yuri, for example, might need more Ca or Mg or both. Just covering all the possibilities I can think of.

Quote
Another thing is my calcium blood levels are pretty high.

So what gives?
My dental problems weren't resolving completely on raw carnivore, so I added a K2 supplement. The powder version didn't help noticeably, but the softgel version does seem to be helping. Richard Nikoley's experience was similar.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ys on April 24, 2010, 10:16:31 am
Ok, I'm guessing K2 you are taking is the kind that comes from animal sources.

Do you know what animal organs were used to extract and concentrate K2?  I'm curious.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 24, 2010, 10:30:12 am
Life Extension's brand contains both plant and animal forms of K. I don't think it's the addition of the plant forms that made the difference for me, I think it's the fat it contains, based on the experience of Drs. Davis and Harris with their patients doing much better on fat-containing softgel forms of vitamin D3 than dry capsule or tablet forms. Here is the comment that further convinced me to give a softgel form of vitamin K2 a try:

Richard Nikoley said (at http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/03/interesting-articles-in-ajcn.html)...

    @ Daniel & Stephan

    Since Stephan brought up K2 Mk4 way back when on that Weston Price post I've been supplementing daily with K2. First I used the Green Pastures butter oil. Saw amazing improvement in skin, smoothness of teeth even without brushing, thickening of finger & toenails.

    Then I went to the Thorne product for a while 1-2mg per day, then for many many months on the Carlson Mk4 product, 5mg per day.

    However, the results on skin & teeth became sporadic and I'd even get slight plaque buildup at times.

    A few months back I switched to Life Extension Super K Complex which has:

    K1: 1mg
    K2: 1mg (Mk4)
    K2: 100mcg (Mk7)

    It comes in a gelcap with 215mg MCT oil.

    Since going on that my teeth have just been super amazing. I'm over 6 months since a cleaning and have not so much as a spec of calculus or plaque and they are always super smooth, like pearls.

    I'm definitely sticking with this product.
    March 26, 2010 1:23 PM


There is also this...

Michael Bender  // Mar 30, 2009 at 12:18 (at http://freetheanimal.com/2009/03/vitamin-k2-reduces-heart-disease.html)

Largely because of this blog and its many links I recently started supplementing with K2 (Life Extension Super K. The results have been amazing. Rarely do supplements provide immediate noticeable benefits but this one does.

For me the impact [has been] on my teeth. I have been told by my dentist that I have somewhat porous teeth that tend to hold onto food and bacteria. I have always had trouble with cavities despite nearly obsessive efforts at brushing, flossing and special rinses. After just two weeks of K2 supplementation all signs of placque have completely disappeared – most notably from the back of the bottom front teeth, which is a problem spot for most people.

I have one small "almost" cavity that I am keeping an eye on. It is due for a filling in July. I will keep the blog posted if anything awesome happens and it is able to repair itself.

I haven't experienced any noticeable changes in my skin as others report but the dental benefits are more than enough for me.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ys on April 24, 2010, 10:35:12 am
That does sound encouraging, I hope when they talk about "teeth" they mean both gums and teeth.

It is not obvious I have issues with teeth, it's the gums I'm concerned about.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 24, 2010, 10:51:46 am
Since plaque irritates the gums and contributes to their receding from the gums, eliminating plaque would presumably improve gum health and in my case my gingivitis (formerly periodontal disease) does seem a little better, but my hygienist will be a better judge of that in a few months.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ys on April 24, 2010, 10:58:34 am
yes, please report your results.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: MrBBQ on April 24, 2010, 04:40:47 pm
Virgin Coconut Oil + Neem Oil swishing (followed by sea salt swishing) is a worthwhile practice, twice per day, which I strictly fulfil (and it's endorsed by the other tooth healing wannabes around here).

Regarding the K2, I had a very scary and potentially life-threatening experience with the lab-created K2 MK-4 (menatetranone), so I'm concerned about the "nature" of these different isomers outside of a balanced food state source.

I'm seeking out raw goose/chicken livers for the K2 MK-4 (better source than ruminant livers), although I'm not quite sure about the other K2 isoforms, given that they come packaged as ferments with organic acids that destroy tooth enamel. There seem to be paradoxes like this in all nourishment...

@Yuri: Do you include some kind of grass-fed liver in your daily meat+fat ration? Grating frozen liver into the mix is a nice way to include raw liver, without the obvious slimy texture.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: klowcarb on April 24, 2010, 09:17:05 pm
Mr. BBQ, would you mind explaining how you grate the raw liver? I have been wanting to incorporate raw liver, but the wetness turns me off. I love eating air-dried raw ground beef and air-dried steaks, so I thought to air-dry liver, but was told that would not be ideal (and it made me sick to look at it in the fridge).
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on April 30, 2010, 01:04:08 am
Here is a good piece on Intermittent Fasting:

What Happens To Your Body When You Fast? (http://www.fitnessspotlight.com/2008/08/11/part-1-what-happens-to-your-body-when-you-fast-energy-production/)

This whole idea of Intermittent Fasting is extremely alluring but don't fall for it headlong unless you have adrenals of a horse otherwise you may end up in a complete misery:

"We see an increase in ACTH (http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowAbstract&ArtikelNr=66446&Ausgabe=228751&ProduktNr=224036), along with an increase in cortisol (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg16518/#msg16518), at least in Ramadan-style fasting of eating breakfast before sun-up and dinner after sun-down with nothing in between, a fast of approximately 13-14 hours. We also get an  increase in epinephrine (http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/258/1/E32), further driving lipolysis. Norepinephrine is much less potent in stimulating lipolysis than is epinephrine and from what I’ve found, levels of norepinephrine don’t appear to change much during fasting."
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on May 06, 2010, 11:11:49 pm
ZC does not necessarily mean zero pain…

I suffered from the same kind of muscle inflammation only once in my life when I tried ZC for the first time (approximately two years ago). Now it happened again during my second no-carb attempt.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on May 07, 2010, 05:16:00 am
Your theory on why this happens?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on May 07, 2010, 05:45:16 am
Looks like laptop burn. The stricter you are with diet the more effect cell phones/wireless have (in my experience)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on May 11, 2010, 10:29:41 pm
Your theory on why this happens?
Most cases of simple muscle inflammation can be attributed to overexertion while exercising. Maybe it is delayed onset muscle soreness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_onset_muscle_soreness)?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on May 25, 2010, 10:37:10 pm
"carnivorous diet" and "ketogenic diet": affecting thyroid levels.

What is dietary ketosis? It’s a state in which the body has shifted from a metabolism relying primarily on carbohydrates for fuel to one using primarily fat and ketones for fuel.

When does ketosis occur? The body enters ketosis if the diet does not provide sufficient glucose to replenish glycogen stores. Any diet which contains less than 100 grams of carbohydrate per day will induce ketosis.

Glucose sources. The major source of glucose in the body is from dietary carbohydrate.  However, liver and kidney also produces glucose from glycerol, lactate/pyruvate and the amino acids alanine and glutamine through a process called gluconeogenesis.

Macronutrients and Ketosis. The total carbohydrate ingested and produced by the body shall not exceed app. 100g.

Carnivorous ketogenic diet. If the protein is not restricted to some degree (less than 140g daily or so) on a carnivorous diet, an excessive protein intake will generate too much glucose, impairing or preventing ketosis.

From the above notions we may conclude that carnivorous diet does not necessarily induces ketosis. Bearing in mind the amounts of meats consumed by hunter-gatherers or Inuit we may assume they were rarely if ever in the state of ketosis, despite the lack of straight carbohydrates in their diets for most of the time.

The low and no-carb diets are mostly feared by their adverse affect on thyroid. It’s been shown that T3 levels (active thyroid hormone) in the body are primarily related to the carbohydrate content of the diet (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1249190?dopt=Abstract). It is possible that as with other hormones in the body (for example insulin), the decrease in circulating T3 levels may be compensated for by an increase in receptor activity and/or number.

However, the mentioned study examined the standard ketogenic diet which restricts protein intake. Hence, it may be assumed that if protein levels were kept higher, it could have disturbed the ketosis and prevented drop in T3.

Back in September 2009 I started a higher protein non-ketogenic carnivorous diet. I was eating about two pounds of fatty lamb daily and felt more or less fine. I was able to consume that much meat only because of Liposomal Vitamin C (http://liposomalresearch.com/products/107614_liponano_c.html) that I was taking at the time. As soon as I dropped it at the end of October my digestive abilities began to fade away very fast. As the time went by I consumed less and less meat. Finally I had to settle with a half a pound of lean meat daily. The rest of my diet was complemented by fat. Unwillingly I progressed to a standard ketogenic diet. Naturally I had some serious concerns how such restrictive diet could have affected my thyroid hormones levels and my metabolism.

My thyroid panel dated April 25, 2008 (just after I stopped Intermittent Farcing):
TSH – 1.33 (range 0.25 – 5.2)
fT4 – 17.87 (range 10.0 – 25.0)
fT3 – 12.64 (range 5.4 – 14.0)

My thyroid panel dated April 26, 2010 (after 8 ZC months):
TSH – 1.43 (range 0.17 – 4.05)
fT4 – 18.9 (range 11.5 – 23.0)
fT3 – 2.5 (range 2.5 – 5.8 )
Anti-TPO – 20.3 (range 0 – 12.0)
Anti-TG – 22.3 – (range 0 – 30.0)

Mild to moderately elevated levels of thyroid antibodies may be found in a variety of thyroid and autoimmune disorders, such as thyroid cancer, Type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, pernicious anemia, and autoimmune collagen vascular diseases. Significantly increased concentrations most frequently indicate thyroid autoimmune diseases such as Hashimoto’s thyroiditis and Graves’ disease.

In general, their presence suggests that there is autoimmune thyroid involvement and the higher the level, the more likely that is. Rising levels may be more significant than stable levels as they indicate an increase in autoimmune activity.

In spite of my higher than normal Anti-TPO the doctor told me that I don’t have Hashimoto’s. He may be right but I’d like to retest it sometime later when I have available funds.

My fT3, which were well normal two years ago, plummeted down on raw ZC diet. With such fT4 it undoubtedly signals to the altered thyroid metabolism which is call thyroid underconversion.

I wonder if higher protein non-ketogenic ZC diet would have prevented the drop in t3…
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: 00nightstorm on May 26, 2010, 09:51:30 pm
Yuri, could you possibly have Chronic Pancreatitis?  It seems like all your symptoms are secondary and caused by the malabsorption of food by your digestive system.  Perhaps if it is not Pancreatitis, then it is Pancreatic insufficiency of some kind or even Pancreatic cancer... the pancreatic juices are not getting to the food in the correct volume and the undigested proteins are seeping through your digestive walls and causing all kinds of havoc?

Maybe you can see a doctor and get an ERCP to check your bile and pancreatic ducts?  Or get a pancreatic function test?  Maybe try taking potent prescription animal-based pancreatic enzymes (not the cheap over-the-counter plant-based ones) and see if that helps your digestion?  Just throwing out suggestions here...  I think in another thread you had already ruled out gallstones?

I think parts of your story are very much like my own and I like the way you think and express yourself.  I even like the way you look.  Too bad I don't live in the Ukraine I think we would be great pals:)

Your English/vocabulary is excellent by the way.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Paleo Donk on May 27, 2010, 06:52:19 am
Have you ever experimented with eggs or yolks, like lots of them AV style?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Raw Kyle on May 27, 2010, 08:13:46 am
That's very interesting that ketosis can be sustained with such a high dietary glucose content. Also that it can be derailed by a high protein content. Do those numbers crunch right for everyone?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on May 27, 2010, 07:58:32 pm
Have you ever experimented with eggs or yolks, like lots of them AV style?
In July 2009 I had a good source of the finest quality goose eggs. It was a great opportunity to test AV’s lots of eggs advice. For the first two weeks or so I was eating 7 – 8 goose yolks daily (equals around 30 normal chicken yolks). The only other food that I was consuming back than was cucumber juice. I didn’t experience any dramatic improvement or any signs of recovery but I felt more or less OK. Then I tried to eat the whole eggs (5 – 6 daily) and crashed immediately. I promised to myself to never touch the raw egg whites again in my life.

I broke my word early in April this year. For three weeks I was eating nothing but goose eggs. This time my digestion was even worse than a year ago and I was able to only consume 4 eggs daily. It all started with severe stomach pains and continuous diarrhea. In about three or four days the loose stools disappeared and were replaced by steady constipation. All this time I felt like I was dead or even worse. As soon as I reintroduced the meat and butter I was back to my comfortable low. In general I went through exactly the same experience as described in this (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/raw-eggs-whites-and-yolks/msg33595/#msg33595) study.

red lights to raw whites!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on May 27, 2010, 09:01:48 pm
That's very interesting that ketosis can be sustained with such a high dietary glucose content. Also that it can be derailed by a high protein content. Do those numbers crunch right for everyone?

There are basically 4 distinct fuels which the body can use: glucose, protein, free fatty acids (FFA), and ketones. The difference in the proportion of each fuel used will depend on the metabolic state of the body (i.e. aerobic exercise, weight training, normal diet, ketogenic diet/fasting). The primary factor is the amount of each nutrient (protein, carbohydrate, fat and alcohol) being consumed, the second determinant is the levels of hormones such as insulin and glucagon, third is the bodily stores of each nutrient including fat stores and muscle/liver glycogen, finally the levels of regulatory enzymes for glucose and fat breakdown, which are beyond our control except through changes in diet and activity.

Mary Massung, the owner of the FatForHealth Yahoo! Group, designed this comprehensive chart comparing the key differences between the fuel sources:
(http://i49.tinypic.com/2nr0rpy.jpg)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on May 27, 2010, 09:46:55 pm
Yuri,

I'm concerned about your mal-absorption of nutrients.
Look up "protein calorie malnutrition".
You probably need professional care to nurse yourself back to being able to absorb nutrients.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on May 28, 2010, 12:07:40 am
Yuri,

I'm concerned about your mal-absorption of nutrients.
Look up "protein calorie malnutrition".
You probably need professional care to nurse yourself back to being able to absorb nutrients.

Good point Edwin, very good point. And that may explain why I am yet to post here on any kind of progress made for over two years. I may be eating right but the body still screams for the nutrients missing due to the absorption problems.

But it doesn't exist on its own. There must be a reason of sorts, say a parasite or a black hole in the gut. It is interesting how Merck Manual points to the Addison's disease as one of the possible causes of malabsorption (http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec02/ch017/ch017a.html#CHDEBGDE). I attached a very detailed article on malabsorption which also mentions adrenal insufficiency among the disorders of intestinal malabsorption.

I may remind you that I measured my 24-hour urinary cortisol and result was weakly positive. My urinary cortisol excretion (http://i48.tinypic.com/vqiem0.jpg) was extremely low at just 5% above the bottom range.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on May 28, 2010, 12:35:49 am
Try this from http://www.nutritionmd.org/health_care_providers/general_nutrition/protein_malnutrition.html

Marasmus is defined simply as chronic deprivation of energy needed to maintain body weight. Its extreme form is characterized by severe weight loss and cachexia.1 Marasmus is further characterized by subnormal body temperature, decreased pulse and metabolic rate, loss of skin turgor, constipation, and starvation diarrhea, consisting of frequent, small, mucus-containing stools.2

Treatment

Individuals treated for protein-energy malnutrition are at risk for refeeding syndrome, in which hypophosphatemia, hypokalemia, and hypomagnesemia may lead to disturbances in the cardiac, neurologic, gastrointestinal, respiratory, hematologic, skeletal, and endocrine systems. Guidelines have been developed to help prevent these complications and to establish a transition to normalcy. Treatment consists of 2 phases: stabilization and rehabilitation.

The initial (stabilization) phase proceeds from days 1 through 7. It consists of treatment and prevention of hypoglycemia, hypothermia, dehydration, and infection; correction of electrolyte imbalance and micronutrient deficiencies; and a cautious feeding regimen.

A rehabilitation phase proceeds from weeks 2 through 6. It consists of achievement of catch-up growth; provision of sensory stimulation and emotional support; and preparation for follow-up after recovery.

These initial 2 steps are followed by protocols for the treatment of shock and anemia; management of associated conditions; and guidelines for individuals who fail to respond.12
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on May 28, 2010, 11:07:00 pm
00nightstorm

These are the real benefits of keeping a Journal. You may always be suggested something that could have been overlooked in the past.

I suppose I do not have chronic pancreatitis. Patients with chronic pancreatitis usually present with persistent abdominal pain and the normal structure of pancreas is altered. I had two ultrasound examinations of the abdomen in 2009. On both occasions my pancreas was not enlarged, the structure was uniform and the contour was defined as smooth. However there was a conclusion in the first scan report that I had signs of chronic pancreatitis. I think this is because I didn’t follow their absurd instructions of taking certain enzyme medication for three days before the examination and abstaining from sweet foods. So it was back in April and I did eat some honey the night before the scan. The following day I had intestinal gas which might have misled the doctor and he thought that was a sign of chronic pancreatitis. I had the second scan in November after two months on ZC. Everything was right that time.

Even if pancreatitis was confirmed I would not have been able to change my diet accordingly. You see, it is a common Ukrainian wisdom that excess dietary fat leads to enormous strain on the pancreas. And a standard recommendation in this case would have been to drastically lower the amount of fat consumption and eliminate raw foods of any kind (especially fruits and veggies) since they actively stimulate the production of pancreatic juices and further exacerbate the inflammation. Patients are usually required to follow a healthy, ALL COOCKED, very low fat, starch based diet…

It is interesting how over the past three years I’ve been kindly advised by the knowledgeable doctors and just ordinary people to significantly lower my fat intake or I will overwhelm and exhaust my pancreas over time.

I think if there was a bile duct obstruction that would have caused high levels of bilirubin. Any mine were just perfect (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg19958/#msg19958).

Taking any enzymes on all raw diet goes against the core concept of raw eating. Moreover I have always been of opinion that such approach just papers over the problem and doesn’t really address the cause.

Who knows maybe one day I happen to be in the States or you visit Ukraine and we will have a friendly meat up…

p.s. since you complimented me on my command of English I may assume that you are either a foreigner or have been involved in some kind of linguistic study and realise perfectly well how much effort it may require to master a foreign language especially if you have never been abroad and didn’t have the real life practical experience. In most cases native speakers pay little if any attention to language skills as they take this aspect for granted.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: 00nightstorm on May 30, 2010, 08:47:24 am
I agree with you about use of dietary enzymes but if you took them and experienced immediate improvement then that would be a way to pinpoint the cause of your problems as being purely enzymatic and related to the pancreas.  Is it possible to have normal levels of bilirubin and still have bile duct obstruction?  What about obstruction of the pancreatic duct?  Gallstones in the ducts don't always show up in ultrasounds...

What about pancreatic insufficiency? 

Quote
Pancreatic insufficiency is the inability of the exocrine pancreas to produce and/or transport enough digestive enzymes to break down food in the intestine and to allow its absorption.

Pancreatic insufficiency usually presents with symptoms of malabsorption, malnutrition, vitamin deficiencies, and weight loss (or inability to gain weight in children) and is often associated with steatorrhea (loose, fatty, foul-smelling stools). Diabetes may also be present in adults with pancreatic insufficiency.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on May 30, 2010, 08:56:27 am
New idea for you Yuri:

Try olive oil enemas. http://www.myhealthblog.org/2010/05/30/irritable-bowel-syndrom-ibs-possible-cure-try-olive-oil-enemas/

Try Gerson Protocol, the original one with raw calf liver, young goat liver will work too. http://www.healingcancernaturally.com/gerson1.html
Timing and the right combination is important.

It's not about cancer, it is about re-training your system to absorb nutrients.  To reset your body.

It seems your fruitarian experiment did the most damage.  You need some push.

Let us know your results.  You always do.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on June 17, 2010, 09:59:36 am
Hi Yuri

I still find it difficult to believe diet is your problem. All these crazy enemas/detox's/enzymes/macronutrient profiles etc etc just seem so ridiculous and possibly harmful when I look at this board from a non-health-nut perspective.

This is something which has helped me in the past. Have a look.

http://www.tmshelp.com/ (http://www.tmshelp.com/)

Check out the testimonials, there's people on there who have come from the living dead. They sound in worse shape than yourself!

[/url]http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2433[/url]
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on June 30, 2010, 12:03:01 am
Thanks mate, I’ll check into that.

The long-drawn raw ZC atrocity is finally over. The fruit season has just begun and there are a couple of lbs of black currants in my today’s menu. After zeroing for nearly 10 months I am switching over to the higher carb (lots of local berries/fruits), lower protein/fat summer paleo diet. Let’s see how it feels.

(http://i45.tinypic.com/2lq3bk.jpg)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on June 30, 2010, 12:51:45 am
They look good.
I've never tasted them.
Good skill, let us know.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on June 30, 2010, 01:32:34 am
===========================================
Nutrition Summary for blackcurrants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackcurrant), 1 kg, raw
===========================================
General
===========================================
Energy               |   630.0 kcal    
Protein               |    14.0 g      
Carbs                 |   153.8 g    
Fat                    |     4.1 g        
Water                |   819.6 g      

Vitamins
===========================================
Vitamin A            |  2300.0 IU      77%
B1 (Thiamine)      |     0.5 mg      42%
B2 (Riboflavin)     |     0.5 mg      38%
B3 (Niacin)          |     3.0 mg      19%
B5 (Pantothenic Acid)| 4.0 mg      80%
B6 (Pyridoxine)    |    0.7 mg       51%
Vitamin C            |  1810.0 mg    2011%
Vitamin E            |    10.0 mg      67%

Minerals
===========================================
Calcium              |   550.0 mg      55%
Copper               |     0.9 mg      96%
Iron                   |    15.4 mg     192%
Magnesium         |   240.0 mg      60%
Manganese         |     2.6 mg     111%
Phosphorus         |   590.0 mg      84%
Potassium          |  3220.0 mg      69%
Sodium              |    20.0 mg       1%
Zinc                   |     2.7 mg      25%

The glycemic index (http://www.montignac.com/en/ig_tableau.php) of blackcurrants is only 15. These berries have an unmatchable nutritional value.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: MoonStalkeR on July 01, 2010, 10:51:19 pm
Smorodina  :D
I remember eating it, the slight sourness only did minor damage if I ate it alone but otherwise very beneficial fruit.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery (on television)
Post by: PrimalLadyRosy on July 22, 2010, 10:46:06 pm

http://tsn.ua/bin/player/embed.php/243763 (http://tsn.ua/bin/player/embed.php/243763)

Maybe translate for everyone?

This video starts with cooked  cheese from homemade raw, goes to raw fruitarian gourmet, then onto Yuri's raw paleo.  It opens to another tab.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: MoonStalkeR on July 22, 2010, 11:12:23 pm
Interesting... more RAF in the news. I understood the majority of it (My Ukrainian isn't that good).
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on July 23, 2010, 12:17:31 am
You looked good, Yuri.
What did the documentary say?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: miles on July 23, 2010, 12:21:29 am
LOL WHAT, woah you were on the news!
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 23, 2010, 12:51:15 am
You looked good, Yuri.
What did the documentary say?


There was a lot of nonsense in this piece of news. Vegans claimed that a healthy, physically active male can thrive on less than one ounce of seeds/nuts and 3 - 4 apples a day. Nutritionist pointed to limitations of all plant diets and stressed the dangers of unheated foods. He also mentioned the FATALITY of toxoplasmosis and salmonellosis (does it have anything to do with SALMON?). Than I broke my 6 day water fast with a piece of raw heart and explained that meats cannot spoil as long bacteria have some air to breathe. At the end the journalist admitted that all Ukrainians are cute because they have been gorging on raw lard since the beginning of time.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 28, 2010, 11:37:37 pm
Bought me some Paleo Vitamin C supplement today. Sea-buckthorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seabuckthorn) berries contain more than 190 varieties of bioactive substances which are much more abundant than in any other fruit or vegetable. You can read more about this wonder fruit in the attached summary. There are some local apricots in this picture as well.
(http://i27.tinypic.com/2njbw4x.jpg)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: fwadmin on July 29, 2010, 12:17:55 am
That is a lot of fruit.
Are you selling?  Or is that for a party?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: majormark on July 29, 2010, 03:23:13 am
Sea-buckthorn berries hmm, I saw them on the market today. They are in season starting from next month.

I'll buy some to see how they taste like.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on July 31, 2010, 03:52:33 am
44 Weeks Later: Z-RAW Effect

The Pros
+ stable BG
+ long-lasting energy
+ feeling relaxed

and Cons
– prolonged muscle soreness/poor muscle recovery (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg35214/#msg35214)
– slowdown of facial/body hair growth
– infrequent bowel movements
– muscle wasting – I assume there was a huge muscle loss since my weight went down from 155 lbs to 140 lbs while the belly fat increased (http://i28.tinypic.com/2wncjk6.jpg)
– reduction in the ability to form short-term or long-term memory, impairments to cognition and inability to concentrate (focus attention), slow thinking
– thyroid underconversion (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg36492/#msg36492)
– heat and cold intolerance
– insulin resistance
– severe recurrent infections, sore throat, swollen lymph nodes
– muscle weakness
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: dsohei on July 31, 2010, 06:49:15 am
the pros you listed (*and cons i think) can also be gained when doing prolonged calorie restriction and fasting
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: majormark on July 31, 2010, 08:30:47 pm
Update: I don't like those berries. They are way too astringent.

I got some some that looked ripe and they still don't taste good.

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 01, 2010, 12:33:32 am
Update: I don't like those berries. They are way too astringent.
I got some some that looked ripe and they still don't taste good.

Like any other natural/wild berries the sea-buckthorn berries are hardly edible in any significant quantities. I juice them to avoid the unpleasant after-effects of astringency.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 01, 2010, 01:10:01 am
– thyroid underconversion
– heat and cold intolerance

I don't recall--have you tried increasing your iodine intake?
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 01, 2010, 02:56:31 am
– thyroid underconversion
– heat and cold intolerance

I don't recall--have you tried increasing your iodine intake?

Yes, I experimented with local sea weed. But it didn't help. Besides, my pre and post ZC lab results clearly point to the root of the problem.

Insulin resistance is also a shocking paleo surprise. I had never had any signs or problems with elevated blood glucose levels until I went on a low-carb diet.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 01, 2010, 03:01:37 am
Yeah, I'm still puzzled as to why you continue ZC. Based on your reports and discourses, I figured you had abandoned it a while ago. I didn't mean to imply that I thought you should use iodine as a way to continue ZC. Quite the contrary, I've read that iodine deficiency is a common side effect of ZC. ZC as it's typically practiced doesn't tend to include meats high in iodine from iodine-rich soils or supplements, nor does it tend to include iodine-rich seaweeds or young, leafy greens.

I don't even eat ZC myself, and it was only ever meant to be a temporary experiment in my case, but it turned out I did better on it than I expected. At the ZIOH forum I and another guy even got lectured to for posting about Inuit consumption of berries, leaves and other plant foods and those who didn't lecture us basically made fun of our posts with wisecracks--a common tactic to undermine an argument without seriously addressing its points.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on August 01, 2010, 03:15:24 am
Yeah, I'm still puzzled as to why you continue ZC. Based on your reports and rhetoric, I figured you had abandoned it a while ago. I didn't mean to imply that I thought you should use iodine as a way to continue ZC. Quite the contrary, I've read that iodine deficiency is a common side effect of ZC.

I don't even eat ZC myself, and it was only ever meant to be a temporary experiment in my case, but it turned out I did better on it than I expected. I even got lectured to and my posts basically ridiculed for talking too much about Inuit consumption of berries, leaves and other plant foods at the ZIOH forum.
I am sort of looking for the route of escape right now. Yes, I did have a couple of fruit meals recently, so I am not ZC anymore.

Mate, it was really incautious act on your part to talk about carbs on that artificial forum.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 01, 2010, 03:17:43 am
I am sort of looking for the route of escape right now. Yes, I did have a couple of fruit meals recently, so I am not ZC anymore.
Glad to hear that you're not sticking to something that clearly wasn't working for you. Hope you do find what, if anything, works for you.

Quote
Mate, it was really incautious act on your part to talk about carbs on that artificial forum.
Yeah, it was a rookie mistake that I didn't repeat. I prefer forums where no subject is off the table, such as Dirty Carnivore and here.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: reyyzl on September 22, 2010, 03:59:04 am
44 Weeks Later: Z-RAW Effect

The Pros
+ stable BG
+ long-lasting energy
+ feeling relaxed

and Cons
– prolonged muscle soreness/poor muscle recovery (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg35214/#msg35214)
– slowdown of facial/body hair growth
– infrequent bowel movements
– muscle wasting – I assume there was a huge muscle loss since my weight went down from 155 lbs to 140 lbs while the belly fat increased (http://i28.tinypic.com/2wncjk6.jpg)
– reduction in the ability to form short-term or long-term memory, impairments to cognition and inability to concentrate (focus attention), slow thinking
– thyroid underconversion (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/yuri-recovery/msg36492/#msg36492)
– heat and cold intolerance
– insulin resistance
– severe recurrent infections, sore throat, swollen lymph nodes
– muscle weakness

  Hi Yuri.
How are you doing now?  Are you feeling any better?  My muscles get sore too when I don't eat any carbs.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: achillezzz on October 17, 2010, 09:36:27 pm
Yuri I know it sounds very simple but did you try magnesium supllements?
I know I know its sounds stupid or simple because you tried more complex things
But what if you try 500mg magnesium 2x day total 1000mg mornin/before night?
Magnesium is everything in your body it controls more than 350 enzymes
just give it a try and tell me how it was I gotta know.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 19, 2010, 02:27:32 am
Yuri I know it sounds very simple but did you try magnesium supllements?
I know I know its sounds stupid or simple because you tried more complex things
But what if you try 500mg magnesium 2x day total 1000mg mornin/before night?
Magnesium is everything in your body it controls more than 350 enzymes
just give it a try and tell me how it was I gotta know.
Sometimes the most complicated issues have the simplest solutions. Unfortunately, it is not my case. I tried Peter Gillham's Natural Calm (http://calm.ru/HK454) and Premier Magnesium Glycinate (http://www.sunstarorganics.com/40017/447296/Premier-Research/MAGNESIUM-GLYCINATE.html). I haven't really noticed any significant improvements.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: 00nightstorm on October 19, 2010, 02:38:12 am
Can you list any of your blood test results?  What are your T3 levels?  Have you been checked for hypothyroidism?  What about cortisol levels?  Testosterone levels? 
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 19, 2010, 04:05:02 pm
My thyroid panel dated 25.04.2008 (just after I stopped Intermittent Fasting):
TSH – 1.33 (range 0.25 – 5.2)
fT4 – 17.87 (range 10.0 – 25.0)
fT3 – 12.64 (range 5.4 – 14.0)

My thyroid panel dated 26.04.2010 (after 8 ZC months):
TSH – 1.43 (range 0.17 – 4.05)
fT4 – 18.9 (range 11.5 – 23.0)
fT3 – 2.5 (range 2.5 – 5.8 )
Anti-TPO – 20.3 (range 0 – 12.0)
Anti-TG – 22.3 – (range 0 – 30.0)

My 24-hour Urinary free cortisol levels dated 21.04.2008:
182.7 µg/24h (range 58.0 – 403.0 µg/24h)

My 24-hour Urinary free cortisol levels dated 16.11.2009:
254.8 nmol/24h (range 160 – 1112 nmol/24h)

My testosterone levels dated 05.05.2010:
18.73 nmol/l (range 6.07 – 27.1 nmol/l)

Diets are helpless in the cases of extreme adrenal fatigue.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: majormark on October 19, 2010, 08:39:28 pm
How do you interpret those values to get adrenal fatigue?

Most of them seem to be in range.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on October 19, 2010, 10:10:05 pm
They appear to be all in range.

Don't things like cortisol change through out the day anyway? seems like if anyone looked hard enough and took enough tests you can find something wrong. I know, I've done it.

Just noticed anti TPO is high. What ever that is and who cares?

You know I get fatigue, feel cold sometimes, cramps, get swollen glands, dry eyes,  I even lost muscle mass lately because I went through a bit of a life changing transition but it will come back when things settle down. I could keep going on but these symptoms are part of being alive. It's the human condition. Most people don't give these symptoms a second thought and they go away. If you keep thinking about them and try and cure them they get worse.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 19, 2010, 10:32:46 pm
They appear to be all in range.

Don't things like cortisol change through out the day anyway? seems like if anyone looked hard enough and took enough tests you can find something wrong. I know, I've done it.

Just noticed anti TPO is high. What ever that is and who cares?

You know I get fatigue, feel cold sometimes, cramps, get swollen glands, dry eyes,  I even lost muscle mass lately because I went through a bit of a life changing transition but it will come back when things settle down. I could keep going on but these symptoms are part of being alive. It's the human condition. Most people don't give these symptoms a second thought and they go away. If you keep thinking about them and try and cure them they get worse.

I agree. I feel a big part of your problems might be mental Yuri.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Hans89 on October 19, 2010, 11:35:33 pm
I agree. I feel a big part of your problems might be mental Yuri.

I dunno about that. Can mental problems really stop your digestion? I know dairy does that to me, no matter what's in my mind. I know I can be the happiest person, but eating the wrong things or doing the wrong stuff throws me off balance.

My lab results were also always "in range." The good doctors told me the same thing: It's a mental problem. However, I found out that changes in diet and lifestyle can make me feel better or worse, which in turn helps me mentally, not the other way round.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 20, 2010, 01:27:25 am
How do you interpret those values to get adrenal fatigue?
Most of them seem to be in range.

According to Dr. James L. Wilson (http://www.adrenalfatigue.org/):

The urinary cortisol, what I've found, is that you cannot use the lab’s normal reference ranges because they are much too broad. They are trying to pick up disease and this is not a disease per se this is an imbalance. And so they are much too broad. But if you take a 24 hour urinary cortisol test and instead of looking at the entire reference range if your scores are in the lower third of that lab’s reference range, because each lab has its own reference range, than you probably have some sort of adrenal dysfunction.

Now as for what they indicate. There has never been to me confirmation of exactly what urinary cortisol is measuring. There's been conjectures about whether it's spill-over or whether it's actual production of the adrenal glands, but it does seem to correspond generally, if the cortisol readings are in the lower third, it seems to correspond with the signs and symptoms of adrenal fatigue.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 20, 2010, 01:51:58 am
You know I get fatigue, feel cold sometimes, cramps, get swollen glands, dry eyes,  I even lost muscle mass lately because I went through a bit of a life changing transition but it will come back when things settle down. I could keep going on but these symptoms are part of being alive. It's the human condition. Most people don't give these symptoms a second thought and they go away. If you keep thinking about them and try and cure them they get worse.
He jests at scars that never felt a wound.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on October 20, 2010, 07:08:50 am
He jests at scars that never felt a wound.

You don't know how sick I've been.

I dunno about that. Can mental problems really stop your digestion? I know dairy does that to me, no matter what's in my mind. I know I can be the happiest person, but eating the wrong things or doing the wrong stuff throws me off balance.

My lab results were also always "in range." The good doctors told me the same thing: It's a mental problem. However, I found out that changes in diet and lifestyle can make me feel better or worse, which in turn helps me mentally, not the other way round.

They are all linked you can't just change mentally you need to make lifestyle changes aswell. Stress/obsessing/anger/anxiety can stop digestion.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: 00nightstorm on October 22, 2010, 04:07:03 am
You show all the signs of hypothyroidism, as do I.  Your last T3 levels were borderline "out of range".  Your drop in T3 after 8 months of ZC has me wondering about all the talk of the effect no-carb has on the thyroid.  I got my T3 tested after 10 months of ZC and it was 2.3.  I don't know what to tell you, you show signs of adrenal insufficiency, as do I, and those cortisol tests are pretty much worthless.  Why don't you try supplementing with cortisol for a few weeks and see how you feel.  If you feel better then you will know what the problem is.  If there is no improvement then you can start to look in different directions.  I myself will be supplementing T3 coming up here in a few weeks to rule out any problems with my thyroid.  I don't know if the low levels I am seeing now are due to my ZC diet because I never got my T3 levels checked before I started it.  And what is low levels anyhow?  Maybe its everyone else (on the high-carb diet) that has high levels.  Who knows.

One more note; have you been tested for a vitamin D deficiency?  I can tell you that I saw a huge improvement in my health when I went ZC and then after several months I started going downhill again and I eventually found out I had developed a vitamin D deficiency and once I started supplementing with vitamin D I saw a drastic improvement again.  Actually, I can't stress how bad this simple deficiency was making me feel.

As far as any of this talk about it all being in your head... there is nothing more offensive then this, in my opinion. 

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 22, 2010, 04:38:48 am
No one is saying it's all in his head. It was more implied that feeling sorry for your self and constantly complaining is downbreaking and detrimental.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: miles on October 22, 2010, 06:00:09 am
As you decrease fruit consumption you need to up the meat consumption. If you try to go zero carb, but replace your carbs with fat instead of meat then you will have less active energy. If you eat lots of meat in the evening and then rest, it will give you active energy for the next day, until you eat again. If you eat fruit throughout the day it will give you active energy. Either way you should have fat for a more sustained balanced energy(even if it's your PRIMARY energy source), but if you try to make fat your sole energy source you will be lethargic as it requires a lot of oxygen to utilise. Your main energy source yeah, but the more you want to have active energy, easy-to-use energy, the more you need to eat of either meat or fruit. ZC is fine, but in an evening meal you should consume lots of meat(lbs), and then rest to allow your body to process it properly, unless you are happy being lethargic. Otherwise you can just eat fruit through the day.

I get the mental aspect. Paleodonk is another who was trying to use fat as almost the sole source of energy, and who felt lethargic as a result. He continued to go through it though because as he said, he didn't 'love himself', so drove on with his present idea of what was dietary perfection, despite the poor way that he felt. In this case, using fat as the sole energy source.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on October 22, 2010, 06:15:27 am
No one is saying it's all in his head. It was more implied that feeling sorry for your self and constantly complaining is downbreaking and detrimental.


No! the illness/pain/symptoms are real and are happening and I mean nothing about feeling sorry for yourself and complaining. The pain is sheer hell and the symptoms can ruin your life.

No one here seems to get what I'm talking about, it's a little frustrating. Anger/anxiety/unhappiness/stress/trauma reek havoc on the body and can lead to everything from hayfever to auto immune disorders and death. It can stuff up your cortisol levels/hormones/stop digestion/adrenal problems, this forum is obsessed with diet as a cure but it's not always the answer.

Everyone on here claims to have adrenal insufficency lately this is a red flag to me, it's in fashion like peptic ulcers were in the 80's and carpal tunnel was in the 90's. The sub concious is very suggestive.





Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: klowcarb on October 22, 2010, 07:18:56 am
ZC is fine, but in an evening meal you should consume lots of meat(lbs), and then rest to allow your body to process it properly,

That's what I do.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: djr_81 on October 22, 2010, 07:24:38 am
As you decrease fruit consumption you need to up the meat consumption. If you try to go zero carb, but replace your carbs with fat instead of meat then you will have less active energy. If you eat lots of meat in the evening and then rest, it will give you active energy for the next day, until you eat again. If you eat fruit throughout the day it will give you active energy. Either way you should have fat for a more sustained balanced energy(even if it's your PRIMARY energy source), but if you try to make fat your sole energy source you will be lethargic as it requires a lot of oxygen to utilise. Your main energy source yeah, but the more you want to have active energy, easy-to-use energy, the more you need to eat of either meat or fruit. ZC is fine, but in an evening meal you should consume lots of meat(lbs), and then rest to allow your body to process it properly, unless you are happy being lethargic. Otherwise you can just eat fruit through the day.
Miles; we're all different. When I up my meat too high a ratio versus my fat intake I have lower energy, low metabolism, tired eyes, etc. I need to eat a consistently high ratio of suet to lean (truly lean as my meat is ground old bulls so is at best 5% fat by volume) to feel right.
You can't make blanket statements like this about everyone as we are all so different. Just like TD would do horrible on a raw-carnivore diet I would wither on either an omnivorous or a lean meat diet. I know you have recently found a lower fat intake to be a panacea for yourself but temper the absolutes. ;)

Quote
I get the mental aspect. Paleodonk is another who was trying to use fat as almost the sole source of energy, and who felt lethargic as a result. He continued to go through it though because as he said, he didn't 'love himself', so drove on with his present idea of what was dietary perfection, despite the poor way that he felt. In this case, using fat as the sole energy source.
You have no idea what you're talking about here miles. Leave PD's diet alone and just be happy he's found his own way to make progress on himself even if it's not on a raw paleo diet. There are a number of things out there just as important as one's food. It might not be the road your or I would take but he has his own way to find and he's doing well. :)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: miles on October 22, 2010, 10:16:10 am
Yeah. If you eat lots of meat you feel tired. That's why you sleep and rest, whilst your body processes it. We're not 'that' different. One of the biggest differences is what we're doing in our day. I didn't say there was anything wrong with eating a large proportion of fat, I didn't even say there's anything wrong with trying to get your all your energy from fat. I just said that if you want '(more)active' energy, that must come from meat or fruit, and thus the more active energy you want, the more meat and/or fruit you must consume...

I haven't recently found this, it's been the same all along. I don't know what you mean by low fat, but a large proportion of my calories come from fat. Probably not far from 50% on average, in whichever direction. Sometimes it is much higher than that, sometimes probably significantly lower. It just happens that recently, many people are eating very little meat/fruit, and wondering why they have less of the 'active'/easily available energy, or at least mentioning it negatively. Why would people mention that they are feeling lethargic, if they do not wish for commentary? They also happen to mention what they are eating, and that is very little fruit or meat.


Yes I do know what I'm talking about in this instance, I didn't say that much. I only said what PD said himself.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ForTheHunt on October 22, 2010, 11:09:07 am
You don't have to be tired.

I think key to having great energy on paleo is being absoloutely starving when you do eat your meat. That way it gets metabolized much faster and you don't get this drowsiness you often get when you eat when not totally hungry.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: yuli on October 22, 2010, 11:37:32 am
I had a large plate of raw beef, lean, this evening and after enjoyed a very super nap.
I too think its normal to sleep after eating lots of meat.
The good thing is after I get up from the nap I have great energy.
I also for some reason like to eat meat in the evening or at night, I wonder if that will ever change...
My cats eat meat, and then what do they do right after, take a snooze. :)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: KD on October 22, 2010, 01:26:20 pm
Miles: yes, people write things here under the assumption that they will be available for commentary but you've more than once now inappropriately indicted by name and (mis)diagnosed other individuals as having problems associated with something you've entirely pulled out of your ass.

all this talk of energy and crap particularly in regards to yuri is totally off base. If you have health issues, you arn't going to have a tremendous amount of energy. This is using-your-brain 101 and eating this or that is not going to work miracles here on a day to day basis. More than likely there are issues like fungus and glandular issues which are impacted (or can be improved) by diet, macro-nutrient intake etc..so these are in fact worth discussing when presented in factual or empirical/experiential ways. I have to say I also agree with what wodgina and others pointed out, that how you use your remaining energy to positively troubleshoot your way to someplace higher, WITHOUT generating too much additional stress is key. I have to also acknowledge that most people would probably be blissfully following a SWD if they didn't have something wrong, so much of the obsession/research seems to be the norm and perhaps temporarily necessary at times.

The truth of the matter is that for many people from an energetic level things will likely get worse before it gets better, as any kind of known process of adaptation, detox, and healing consumes tremendous amounts of energy to transition and takes place over an extremely long period of time in comparison to what people desire. This is not made up. Prior to that any quick efforts or explanations really have no bearing whatsoever in terms of what real energy and health is. You have a choice to burn fat or glucose and whether to eat healthy biological or unhealthy food, after that the idea that you need any kind of routine in order to stave off fatigue sounds pretty ridiculous in comparison to everyday functioning people who put next to no energy into what they do and yet have plenty. Its of my opinion that this should probably warrant some serious self-examination, rather than being of any use to anyone else.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 22, 2010, 02:54:43 pm
Anger/anxiety/unhappiness/stress/trauma reek havoc on the body and can lead to everything from hayfever to auto immune disorders and death. It can stuff up your cortisol levels/hormones/stop digestion/adrenal problems, this forum is obsessed with diet as a cure but it's not always the answer.

That's exactly right mate, a truer word was never spoken!

Everyone on here claims to have adrenal insufficency lately this is a red flag to me, it's in fashion like peptic ulcers were in the 80's and carpal tunnel was in the 90's. The sub concious is very suggestive.

Yeah, adrenal fatigue is pretty much in vogue these days.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: goodsamaritan on October 22, 2010, 04:01:30 pm
How about your purpose in life?
What gets you excited?
What keeps you going?

For example, I have to be healthy and make money for my children.  Of course any healthy male might think... energy for more girls!

Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: rawlion on October 22, 2010, 07:32:47 pm
How about your purpose in life?

It is obvious, everything is nothing without health... All I wish is to be able to walk, sleep and eat again...

What gets you excited?
What keeps you going?

females

For example, I have to be healthy and make money for my children.  Of course any healthy male might think... energy for more girls!

precisely
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: wodgina on October 22, 2010, 10:48:00 pm
you can and will
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: achillezzz on November 16, 2010, 01:15:31 am
Yuri how is your typical day goes?
Wake up hours daily activities meal times meal examples sleep hours etc just interested.
and try positive thinking! it always helps!! :)
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Sorentus on February 26, 2014, 11:28:03 am
Dang, so did he ever recover? I was reading up to page 14 and was hoping to see a happy ending giving he registered 6 years ago but he never followed up.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on February 26, 2014, 04:30:17 pm
Dang, so did he ever recover? I was reading up to page 14 and was hoping to see a happy ending giving he registered 6 years ago but he never followed up.
Err, Yuri was orthorexic and a hypochondriac. He would always try something different and claim all sorts of benefits, soon followed by arbitrary, rather unlikely health problems.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: ys on February 26, 2014, 10:57:38 pm
Quote
Yuri was orthorexic and a hypochondriac.

Not true.  He has a bunch of hormonal imbalances including adrenal and thyroid and most likely some digestion issues.  He is somewhat better today but meat still gives him adverse effect.  He feels the best on milk, coconut butter, carrots and some fruits.  Speaking of Yuri, he's just been in the middle of Ukrainian uprising since he is working for the opposition lawmaker.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Sorentus on February 27, 2014, 12:41:34 am
Err, Yuri was orthorexic and a hypochondriac. He would always try something different and claim all sorts of benefits, soon followed by arbitrary, rather unlikely health problems.

Seems to me like he did have severe health problems, I myself was told many time that it was all in my head and likely just caused by stress, despite having headache everyday losing 35pounds and having barely enough energy to climb the stair with breathing difficulty and digestive issues. Now I'm on Raw Paleo will see how that work.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: TylerDurden on February 27, 2014, 02:12:39 am
Not true.  He has a bunch of hormonal imbalances including adrenal and thyroid and most likely some digestion issues.  He is somewhat better today but meat still gives him adverse effect.  He feels the best on milk, coconut butter, carrots and some fruits.  Speaking of Yuri, he's just been in the middle of Ukrainian uprising since he is working for the opposition lawmaker.
Absolute nonsense. He behaved just like Nicola before him, constantly reporting some benefits whenever he switched and then soon reporting highly unlikely health problems all over the place. I do not discount the possibility that a minority of people can suffer some sort of health-problem on a raw, palaeolithic diet due to some unusual genetics or bad food combination or whatever, but the absurd, overly complicated, always changing claims of ill-health that Yuri and Nicola  et al have made in the past can only be due to orthorexia and hypochondriasis.
Title: Re: Yuri recovery
Post by: Sorentus on February 27, 2014, 02:31:37 am
I truly believe he would have benefited  from some high meat and kept with fermented vegetables possibly try other source of RAF.