Author Topic: Yuri recovery  (Read 191789 times)

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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #225 on: November 09, 2009, 09:19:52 am »
Cherries and cherry juice are an excellent folk remedy for gout.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #226 on: November 10, 2009, 09:13:03 pm »
Stop this craziness, take my advice. People here are feeding this obsession i can spot it because i think the same. What you feel is real but diet is not the answer. Please don't waste your life with this crap. This is my last post. Get well.
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

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Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #227 on: November 10, 2009, 10:15:30 pm »
I’d like to shed the light of truth on this kidney stones scare because it is unnecessarily blowing out of proportion.

The uric acid kidney stones which have occasionally been found in epileptic children following the ketogenic diet appear to be related to high levels of urinary ketones, low urinary pH and fluid restriction. High levels of uric acid in the bloodstream can be caused by either an over-production of uric acid by the body or the under-elimination of uric acid by the kidneys. Also, the ingestion of foods high in purines (organ meats) can raise uric acid levels in the blood.

Lyle McDonald explains that the ketogenic diet has been shown to affect the rate of uric acid excretion through the kidneys. Ketones and uric acid compete for the same transport mechanism in the kidneys. Thus when the kidneys remove excess ketone bodies from the bloodstream, the removal of uric acid decreases and a buildup occurs.

In the most simplest terms in order to prevent the uric acid kidney stones it is necessary to either decrease the intake of high purine foods and avoid ketosis or wash out the ketones and uric acid by drinking gallons of ALKALINE water.

In a non-ketotic state, the brain utilizes roughly 100 grams of glucose per day. This doesn’t mean that any diet which contains less than 100 grams of carbohydrate per day will induce ketosis. We have to remember that ZC is not always a ketogenic diet. It is the fact that 58% of dietary protein and ten percent of the total fat grams ingested will appear in the bloodstream as glucose. So excessive protein intake will generate too much glucose, impairing or preventing ketosis.

Let’s have a look at Lex’s regimens as an example:
higher protein plan:
– protein: 150g
– fat: 180g
– glucose: 87 + 18 = 105g         
– condition: no ketosis
– result: low urinary ketones --> normal uric acid excretion --> no kidney stones.

lower protein plan:
– protein: 85g
– fat: 210g
– glucose: 49 + 21 = 70g         
– condition: most likely ketosis
– result: high urinary ketones --> reduced uric acid excretion --> kidney stones.

As I see it the low protein high fat carnivorous/ketogenic diet is unnatural. For instance, the Eskimos, who sometimes live almost entirely on a fat diet, do not develop ketosis. Adapting to a higher fat, higher protein diet will almost never produce ketosis.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 01:56:41 am by rawlion »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #228 on: November 11, 2009, 06:49:01 am »
I still suspect the protein more than the fat, and I suspect that the 5% of the ketogenic kids were probably also eating fairly high levels of protein, but I need to learn more before I draw any firm conclusions. Any evidence you have to support excess fat as the cause would be appreciated, Yuri.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #229 on: November 11, 2009, 10:51:03 am »
Please correct me if I am wrong, but is not the ketogenic diet cooked? If it is, results are irrelevant.

alphagruis

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #230 on: November 11, 2009, 08:08:18 pm »
Please correct me if I am wrong, but is not the ketogenic diet cooked? If it is, results are irrelevant.

Yes, there is little doubt,  it's certainly cooked food and of questionable relevance anyway.

There are many causes of hyperuricemia that have been invoked. One of them is the lead poisoning.

http://www.articlesbase.com/diseases-and-conditions-articles/lead-poisoning-and-the-gout-connection-986975.html

Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #231 on: November 11, 2009, 10:27:28 pm »
Please correct me if I am wrong, but is not the ketogenic diet cooked? If it is, results are irrelevant.

Look at my lab results. My serum uric acid incresed threefold on RAW ZC diet. And what about my past RAW ZC kdney stones experience?
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Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #232 on: November 11, 2009, 10:48:18 pm »
I still suspect the protein more than the fat, and I suspect that the 5% of the ketogenic kids were probably also eating fairly high levels of protein, but I need to learn more before I draw any firm conclusions. Any evidence you have to support excess fat as the cause would be appreciated, Yuri.

The diet provides just enough protein for body growth and repair, and sufficient calories to maintain the correct weight for age and height. The classic ketogenic diet contains a 4:1 ratio by weight of fat to protein.

The ketogenic diet is a therapy for epilepsy. High levels of protein will disrupt ketosis. There is no logic in doing that.

I have never said that excess fat is the cause. I tried to explain how LOW protein is not always good because it induces ketosis with all possible adverse effects.
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Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #233 on: November 11, 2009, 11:19:26 pm »
Stop this craziness, take my advice. People here are feeding this obsession i can spot it because i think the same. What you feel is real but diet is not the answer. Please don't waste your life with this crap. This is my last post. Get well.

My friend, your contribution is highly appreciated. You are my senior advisor. Just go to the opening page of my Journal and see who was the very first person to respond here. You can't just leave me. I need your help.

Come on Andrew, as a true carnivoure we can get on swimmingly...  ;)

I promise I will close this Journal when the time comes.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 03:23:46 am by rawlion »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #234 on: November 12, 2009, 09:27:41 am »
The diet provides just enough protein for body growth and repair, and sufficient calories to maintain the correct weight for age and height. The classic ketogenic diet contains a 4:1 ratio by weight of fat to protein.
Ah yes, I stupidly forgot, thanks. Are there any theories on why cooked fats would contribute to uric acid stones or calcium oxalate stones? Do we know which type most of those ketogenic kids had?

Quote
I have never said that excess fat is the cause. I tried to explain how LOW protein is not always good because it induces ketosis with all possible adverse effects.
What are the other reported ill effects?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #235 on: November 13, 2009, 02:38:16 am »
Ukrainian Lamb...
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Offline livingthelife

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #236 on: November 13, 2009, 02:44:52 am »
OMG, that is cool!  ;D   

Lamb is one meat that is difficult to get in my region, and is even limited in mail order.

You know, Yuri, I was wondering if you were ever able to try fresh sweetbreads (pancreas/thymus) from veal or lamb. I considered it for my exhaustion, which we had in common about the same time last year. But I was never able to obtain any.

Do you know these butchers well enough to get the cuts of meat you want?

Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #237 on: November 13, 2009, 03:51:40 am »
What are the other reported ill effects?

Side Effects on the Ketogenic Diet: Identification and Treatment

By Eric Kossoff, MD

History of the diet and its side effects

Perhaps one of the least discussed but most important of the changes in ketogenic diet research in the past decade has been the identification of its side effect profile. During the 1920s and 1930s, when the ketogenic diet was one of the most popular anticonvulsant therapies, side effects such as acidosis (low bicarbonate levels in the blood), constipation, and abnormal menstrual periods (in adult women) were discussed and were just starting to be investigated.

However, over the following 60 years, research into the ketogenic diet focused nearly exclusively on demonstrating that it worked in order to answer its critics, rather than researching side effects. All this has changed in the past decade, and now that the ketogenic diet is no longer perceived as an alternative treatment, as James Wheless, MD, titled his editorial in 2001, the ketogenic diet is a “medical therapy with side effects”, and researchers have agreed.(1) Although most of the side effects I will discuss are important to be observant for, and can be bothersome, it is rare to have to stop the diet because of them.

What are the side effects?

The most common, almost “expected”, side effects of the diet are constipation, acidosis (especially with illness), and decreased weight gain (not often weight loss). These are often addressed immediately when the diet is started, especially using Miralax™ for constipation. The less common side effects, generally occurring in 1 in 20 children, include high cholesterol, kidney stones, growth slowing, and gastrointestinal upset.

In 2001, Peter Kwiterovich, MD, reported in JAMA our experience at Johns Hopkins Hospital in regards to cholesterol of children on the diet.(2) In general, most children have a 30% increase in total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, and triglycerides. Fortunately, this increase happens within 3 months but usually doesn’t continue to increase (and in studies of children on the diet for over 6 years, may return to normal). Although we often recommend adding MCT oil (link to Keto News article), increasing the percentage of polyunsaturated fatty acids, and lowering the ketogenic diet ratio, these interventions have been looked at in only small numbers of patients. Many families are worried about the long-term effects of high cholesterol, but we suspect that the short periods of time that most children are on the diet do not impact later atherosclerosis.

Around the same time, in 2000, Susan Furth, MD, showed both that there is a 5% chance of kidney stones in children on the diet and that it was more likely to occur in those who had high amounts of calcium in their urine.(3) She suggested that using Polycitra K™ to make the urine less acidic and bind up calcium would help prevent stones. Just this year, Amitha Sampath, MD, from our group proved she was right: by using Polycitra K™ there was 3 times less risk of stones.(4) Since January 2006 at Hopkins, all children started on the diet are also started on Polycitra K™.

Growth is also slowed somewhat by being on the diet. Children tend to follow the growth curves, but mostly stay around the 5th percentile.(5) Children under age 2 years are at the most risk for growth disturbance, and therefore we tend to use lower ketogenic diet ratios (e.g. 3:1) in this age group to allow for more protein. In children on the diet for over 6 years, nearly all were at the 5th percentile. It is hard to argue that this is probably a minor problem for a child having hundreds of daily seizures, but it is worth monitoring to keep children as healthy and normal as possible.

Very recent information also suggests that bone density can be a problem while on the diet, similar to being on medications. Children appear to have lower bone mineral density, which can lead to an increased risk of bone fractures, especially in children on the diet for over 6 years.(6) Christina Bergqvist, MD, found that Vitamin D levels initially increase due to supplementation on the diet, and after several months they decline, and this may partially explain the problems with bone density.(7) Studies are underway using DEXA scans to monitor children on the diet.

The rare side effects

Over the past decade, several case reports have described unusual, but serious side effects possibly attributable to the ketogenic diet. They include inflammation of the pancreas, prolonged QT intervals in heart rhythms, enlargement and problems with the heart muscle, selenium deficiency, severe carnitine deficiency, and basal ganglia changes (a deep part of the brain). We do not know at this time the true incidence of these problems, but they appear to be very rare.

The Charlie Foundation and many ketogenic diet experts are interested in creating a web-based side effect registry for the diet, as already exists for anticonvulsant drugs by the Food and Drug Administration. Physicians would enter anonymous information about a side effect they think may be due to the diet, and then could find out if any other doctors have seen it, too (and then contact them for how they treated the side effect.)

We are clearly in an exciting time for the ketogenic diet, but as its use grows, the occurrence of side effects will also grow. The future is bright because physicians are trying not only to identify side effects, but prevent them from happening.

References

   1. Wheless JW. (2001). The ketogenic diet: an effective medical therapy with side effects. J Child Neurol 16, 633-635.
   2. Kwiterovich PO, Jr., Vining E P, Pyzik P, Skolasky R, Jr., Freeman JM. (2003). Effect of a high-fat ketogenic diet on plasma levels of lipids, lipoproteins, and apolipoproteins in children. JAMA 290, 912-920.
   3. Furth SL, Casey JC, Pyzik PL, Neu AM, Docimo SG, Vining EP, Freeman JM, Fivush B A. (2000). Risk factors for urolithiasis in children on the ketogenic diet. Pediatr Nephrol 15, 125-128.
   4. Sampath A, Kossoff EH, Furth SL, Pyzik PL, Vining EPG (2007). Kidney stones and the ketogenic diet: risk factors and prevention. J Child Neurol 22, 375-8.
   5. Vining EP, Pyzik P, McGrogan J, Hladky H, Anand A, Kriegler S, Freeman JM. (2002). Growth of children on the ketogenic diet. Dev Med Child Neurol 44, 796-802.
   6. Groesbeck DK, Bluml RM, Kossoff EH. (2006) Long-term use of the ketogenic diet. Dev Med Child Neurol 48, 978-81.
   7. Bergqvist AG, Schall JI, Stallings VA (2007). Vitamin D status in children with intractable epilepsy, and impact of the ketogenic diet. Epilepsia. 48, 66-71.

Submitted: 10/30/07
Reviewed by Steven C. Schachter, MD


All the above relates to the cooked Ketogenic Diet. My lab results show that I have hyperlipoproteinemia and increase in total cholesterol on a RAW ZC diet. Besides I have had a kidney stones episode in my last ZC attempt. Ultrasound has identified inflammation of the pancreas and I have the sensation that there is something just under my left ribs. Elevated serum uric acid levels are also alarming.
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carnivore

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #238 on: November 13, 2009, 10:19:13 pm »
My lab results show that I have hyperlipoproteinemia and increase in total cholesterol on a RAW ZC diet. Besides I have had a kidney stones episode in my last ZC attempt. Ultrasound has identified inflammation of the pancreas and I have the sensation that there is something just under my left ribs. Elevated serum uric acid levels are also alarming.

Mine also show hyperlipidemia : I have 3 times too much HDL and high VLDL. I believe we simply eat way too much fat (and possibly protein). And I sincerely don't know how to not eat too much fat and protein on a carnivorous diet, even on on one meal a day schedule!
Maybe less fat and more protein would prevent ketosis with all its consequences from a high acid load ?
I may try that...


Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #239 on: November 13, 2009, 10:46:13 pm »
Since liver is so carb-rich, why not eat more liver?  That is, if your blood work on ZC or VLC isn't ideal.  At least, it might be worth trying.

Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #240 on: November 14, 2009, 12:07:01 am »
Mine also show hyperlipidemia : I have 3 times too much HDL and high VLDL. I believe we simply eat way too much fat (and possibly protein).
I may try that...

Frédéric, it is all not so simple... I think that our excess of lipoproteins in the blood is due to a disorder of lipoprotein metabolism. It relates primarily to metabolic control, with limited impact from dietary factors. Treatment of hyperlipidemia should primarily be directed at improving metabolic control.

There are a number of different conditions which can raise lipoprotein levels. Hypothyroidism is associated with abnormal lipid levels. The thyroid hormone affects the rate of many chemical processes in the body, including the clearing of fats from the blood.
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carnivore

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #241 on: November 14, 2009, 12:49:00 am »
Frédéric, it is all not so simple... I think that our excess of lipoproteins in the blood is due to a disorder of lipoprotein metabolism. It relates primarily to metabolic control, with limited impact from dietary factors. Treatment of hyperlipidemia should primarily be directed at improving metabolic control.

There are a number of different conditions which can raise lipoprotein levels. Hypothyroidism is associated with abnormal lipid levels. The thyroid hormone affects the rate of many chemical processes in the body, including the clearing of fats from the blood.

Yuri,
How do you address hypothyroidism?
I though the right diet would cure any metabolic disorder...

Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #242 on: November 14, 2009, 01:38:27 am »
Yuri,
How do you address hypothyroidism?

By eating raw ZC diet. This idea is absolutely mad given the common belief that low-carb induces hypothyroidism...

I though the right diet would cure any metabolic disorder...

There is nothing else to do but to hope that a carnivorous diet will balance hormones, correct underactive thyroid and boost metabolism...
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Offline RawZi

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #243 on: November 14, 2009, 03:26:09 am »
Hypothyroidism is associated with abnormal lipid levels. The thyroid hormone affects the rate of many chemical processes in the body, including the clearing of fats from the blood.

    I was diagnosed hypothyroid years before I started eating (R)AF's.  They thought my lipids should be high too.  They kept checking, but it never got high at all.  The lipids were never extremely low either.  Just noting.  A very good hospital did diagnose me, I was seen regularly, saw the endocrinologist and other specialities also during the same time all networked together.  Even so, I should say I believe it possible they did not fully understand thyroids.  
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline RawZi

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #244 on: November 14, 2009, 03:33:39 am »
There is nothing else to do but to hope that a carnivorous diet will balance hormones, correct underactive thyroid and boost metabolism...

    In my experience it takes more than diet.  The way we think can have effect on us, types of exercise too.  Then I never tried zero carb.  That being said, all day yesterday I was ZC, and hope to try it more often, maybe all through the Winter, if trying it more and more seems good.  I should get my thyroid checked again by the doctors, it would be interesting to see any differences that show up in their tests.  I kind of hate the medical field though in the type of existance it is in right now.

    I hope you find much more healing soon! 
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline van

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #245 on: November 14, 2009, 04:52:01 am »
  I think I just had a good idea, and that is for the group of us to find a 'doctor' who we could trust to run various blood tests on us, and to form some sort of baseline or general understanding for those who eat like us...  I have been trying to contact Ron Rosedale MD for some time. But I think he's out of the country for a while.  Would welcome any ideas?   

Offline rawlion

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #246 on: November 14, 2009, 05:30:38 am »
It will be anything but simple given that we all live in different parts of the world and some of us may have financial limitations.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #247 on: November 14, 2009, 08:43:19 am »
Mine also show hyperlipidemia : I have 3 times too much HDL and high VLDL. ...
Did you really mean "too much HDL" or something else, since HDL is generally regarded as the "healthy fat."

Would you care to share your numbers so I can understand what you mean?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #248 on: November 14, 2009, 11:39:55 am »
  I think I just had a good idea, and that is for the group of us to find a 'doctor' who we could trust to run various blood tests on us, and to form some sort of baseline or general understanding for those who eat like us...  I have been trying to contact Ron Rosedale MD for some time. But I think he's out of the country for a while.  Would welcome any ideas?   

Mercola! He already eats raw meat.
He does love $ though, but then, what doc doesn't?

carnivore

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Re: Yuri recovery
« Reply #249 on: November 14, 2009, 09:01:05 pm »
Did you really mean "too much HDL" or something else, since HDL is generally regarded as the "healthy fat."

Would you care to share your numbers so I can understand what you mean?

sorry : I mean too much LDL (not HDL).

Look at : http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/journal-of-a-carnivore/msg16044/#msg16044




 

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