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Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 03:45:57 am

Title: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 03:45:57 am
The raw vegans argue that humans are best suited to a frugivorous diet. Their evidences (or some) are that humans teeth are not designed for eating meat unlike carnivores, carnivores stomachs secrete acid which is 10 times stronger than that of the humans. the digestion of meat starts in the mouth of the carnivores whereas it starts in the stomach of the humans. It takes many hours to digest in the humans. In addition to the structure of the human body which is not suited / designed to run after a prey.....the intestines and colons of humans are longer than that of the carnivores....So following a Paleo diet goes against nature.

What's the Paleo take on that?  
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: actup on January 04, 2011, 03:51:08 am
I digest beef better than just about anything else, even fruit.
Butter with honey is the only thing that works quicker.
After I eat about a pound of beef, my stomach is clear in less than 2 hours and I feel much more satisfied.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 03:53:49 am
I digest beef better than just about anything else, even fruit.
Butter with honey is the only thing that works quicker.
After I eat about a pound of beef, my stomach is clear in less than 2 hours and I feel much more satisfied.

I do want to believe you, but what's the science behind that? The evidence they give is actually convincing and true to the best of my knowledge. 
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: miles on January 04, 2011, 04:01:50 am
The raw vegans argue that humans are best suited to a frugivorous diet. Their evidences (or some) are that humans teeth are not designed for eating meat unlike carnivores, carnivores stomachs secrete acid which is 10 times stronger than that of the humans. the digestion of meat starts in the mouth of the carnivores whereas it starts in the stomach of the humans. It takes many hours to digest in the humans. In addition to the structure of the human body which is not suited / designed to run after a prey.....the intestines and colons of humans are longer than that of the carnivores....So following a Paleo diet goes against nature.

What's the Paleo take on that?  

Humans are the most efficient runners in existence. Nothing can outrun an unarmed human, and when the human catches the animal it's already dying of exhaustion. They can chase endlessly like wolves, only even more so. As opposed to cheetahs who sneak up close and sprint, or crocodiles who lie in wait. Humans are smart and can adopt many other techniques to hunt as well, like cornering, guiding, trapping, sneaking, etc.. Aside from our running supremacy, do you not consider the human brain do be a part of our body? It is as much a part as any other aspect of any other animal which allows it to hunt.

Humans don't need big teeth because they don't hunt with their mouth, only eat with it. The big teeth of lions are for killing, not for eating.

The acid is not 10x weaker afaik, it's much closer than that, and the length of the intestines is not much longer than other carnivores, but a lot shorter than herbivores.

Clearly we are different to dogs, and dogs are different to cats. Even dogs and cats descended from herbivores, as we are..
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ys on January 04, 2011, 04:02:21 am
Quote
The evidence they give is actually convincing and true to the best of my knowledge.  

obvious things may not be what they really are.  people thought the earth was flat because ahh it looks flat.

there is really no science behind this argument because both parties do not have enough concrete evidence to offer consensus.  
why don't you try vegan's convincing advice and let us know how well it works for you.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: actup on January 04, 2011, 04:07:04 am
I do want to believe you, but what's the science behind that? The evidence they give is actually convincing and true to the best of my knowledge.  

The views I express are only observation.
"Science" is great but IMO self experimentation and intuition are by far dominant.
You will almost always find opposing views in science, people will argue both sides and sometimes both will appear totally legit.
I really do not want you to "believe" me. Try it out for yourself and let us know how you feel!
There are a few people on here, like skinny devil, who eat primarily fruits and veggies and are in great shape.
Some only eat animals and that is great for them.
As long as you look at things honestly and don't hypnotize yourself, you will be fine.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 04:07:34 am
Humans are the most efficient runners in existence. Nothing can outrun an unarmed human, and when the human catches the animal it's already dying of exhaustion. They can chase endlessly like wolves, only even more so.

Apart from turtles and snails, humans cant outrun but other humans. Which animals can we outrun, Miles? Animals are superior to us in both stamina and speed.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: miles on January 04, 2011, 04:08:44 am
Apart from turtles and snails, humans cant outrun but other humans. Which animals can we outrun, Miles? Animals are superior to us in both stamina and speed.

We can outrun all herbivores.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 04, 2011, 04:09:42 am
Apart from turtles and snails, humans cant outrun but other humans. Which animals can we outrun, Miles? Animals are superior to us in both stamina and speed.
The idea is not to outrun. Humans are intelligent and found ways to injure prey from distance. THEN, they chase the prey down. The injury makes chasing down much easier.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: miles on January 04, 2011, 04:10:30 am
The idea is not to outrun. Humans are intelligent and found ways to injure prey from distance. THEN, they chase the prey down. The injury makes chasing down much easier.

Humans can even kill herbivores by running them down on an open plain, with no weapons. Humans are the most efficient runners in the animal kingdom.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 04:12:30 am
We can outrun all herbivores.

Which ones? I am pretty sure if i raced a horse or even an elephant i will lose.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: King Salmon on January 04, 2011, 04:13:35 am
why don't you try vegan's convincing advice and let us know how well it works for you.

That's right.Many people here came from being raw vegan/vegan long term.It may have felt good at first but in the long term it didn't hold up.Many people developped weak bodies and illnesses.Read the history of some of the members here and you will see.
I was convinced to the max on eating Macrobiotic,then vegan,then fruits.I wish I knew then what I know now.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 04, 2011, 04:13:44 am
Humans can even kill herbivores by running them down on an open plain, with no weapons. Humans are the most efficient runners in the animal kingdom.

Modern humans cannot do this well unfortunately. XD Such is what civilization does. I think it is easy to underestimate our ancestors, since humans today don't seem capable of doing these things.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 04:16:36 am
Modern humans cannot do this well unfortunately. XD Such is what civilization does. I think it is easy to underestimate our ancestors, since humans today don't seem capable of doing these things.

Our lifespan is greater than that of our ancestors. Our intelligence has also increased.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 04:18:03 am
That's right.Many people here came from being raw vegan/vegan long term.It may have felt good at first but in the long term it didn't hold up.Many people developped weak bodies and illnesses.Read the history of some of the members here and you will see.
I was convinced to the max on eating Macrobiotic,then vegan,then fruits.I wish I knew then what I know now.


Where can i read the history of those members you are referring to?
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: miles on January 04, 2011, 04:20:10 am
Which ones? I am pretty sure if i raced a horse or even an elephant i will lose.

Race? You're not racing it, you're hunting it. All you have to do is scare the animal so it runs from you, and you just have to keep running after it until it completely collapses. A horse can run fast, but it's inefficient and tires faster. It also overheats and needs to stop and pant to cool down whereas we can sweat. If you can scare a horse to make it run from you, and you just keep running after it, it will keep speeding away and stopping while you keep going, and after some hours it will just collapse from exhaustion, and then you can even strangle it or bash its head with a rock to finish it off.

Modern humans cannot do this well unfortunately. XD Such is what civilization does. I think it is easy to underestimate our ancestors, since humans today don't seem capable of doing these things.

Which modern humans? What do you mean by modern humans? The species of modern human can do it, I could do it, and some western peoples have done it very recently for a challenge, whilst some modern(species) humans still living as HGs still do it regularly. Of course some unhealthy person can't do it..
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 04, 2011, 04:22:02 am
Our lifespan is higher than that of our ancestors. Our intelligence has also increased.
Our lifespan is higher because every day isn't a struggle to survive and because of emergency medical care.

Intelligence is very vague to define. If a modern human was transported to the paleolithic, the hunter-gathers would think that he or she was retarded because of a lack of survival skills and wit.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: actup on January 04, 2011, 04:24:19 am
Where can i read the history of those members you are referring to?
Before and after section.
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/before-and-after-photos/ (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/before-and-after-photos/)
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 04, 2011, 04:25:14 am
Which modern humans? What do you mean by modern humans? The species of modern human can do it, I could do it, and some western peoples have done it very recently for a challenge, whilst some modern(species) humans still living as HGs still do it regularly. Of course some unhealthy person can't do it..


I don't mean the species. I was just saying that "civilized" peoples can't do this well because they haven't "trained" enough through experience.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 04:25:51 am
Race? You're not racing it, you're hunting it. All you have to do is scare the animal so it runs from you, and you just have to keep running after it until it completely collapses. A horse can run fast, but it's inefficient and tires faster. It also overheats and needs to stop and pant to cool down whereas we can sweat. If you can scare a horse to make it run from you, and you just keep running after it, it will keep speeding away and stopping while you keep going, and after some hours it will just collapse from exhaustion, and then you can even strangle it or bash its head with a rock to finish it off.

Miles, by the time the horse gets tired, it'll be miles away from me, and without a weapon or a tool, a horse will kill me. I can do nothing against it. I need to use a tool or a weapon. And even if i try catching up with the horse which is now allegedly miles away from me, i will grow tired and will become vulnerable to being eaten by other wild animals.

Humans are weak, we're the weakest creatures in terms of physical abilities, its good that we have the intelligence to compensate for that.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: miles on January 04, 2011, 04:27:52 am
Miles, by the time the horse gets tired, it'll be miles away from me, and without a weapon or a tool, a horse will kill me. I can do nothing against it. I need to use a tool or a weapon. And even if i try catching up with the horse which is now allegedly miles away from me, i will grow tired and will become vulnerable to being eaten by other wild animals.

Humans are weak, we're the weakest creatures in terms of physical abilities, its good that we have the intelligence to compensate for that.

YOU're weak, YOU're the weakest creature in terms of physical abilities, and I'm not sure you have the intelligence to compensate for that. You're talking about yourself, not humans. Don't insult my species.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo

A follower of movnat(concept of natural movement, barefoot running etc) also hunted a deer in California this way, and killed it with a rock.

This is different, but another example of someone catching a wild animal without weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqko-lxsQsE

Besides, what's wrong with using our brains and making tools anyway? How does that make us any less carnivores, that we have different abilities? A wolf can't sneak or sprint like a cheetah, but it has good endurance. A snake can't chase at all, but it can wait for a long time. A vulture can follow dying animals. A human can think, and use this to come up with many ways of hunting. Whether it's utilising our incredible endurance, using our hands to make tools/traps/weapons, using our communication to guide animals off of cliffs, sneaking up to an animal, tracking an animal etc.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 04, 2011, 04:31:34 am
We must keep in mind that to hunter gathers in the past, a successful hunt could have been a difference between life or death. This is would be very motivating. If failure was death, I definitely give it my all.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Iguana on January 04, 2011, 04:38:39 am
The best debunking of the vegetarian ideology is in the quote here. (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/instinctoanopsology/explain-instincto-diet-fully-2/msg57476/#msg57476)
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 04:49:19 am
YOU're weak, YOU're the weakest creature in terms of physical abilities, and I'm not sure you have the intelligence to compensate for that. You're talking about yourself, not humans. Don't insult my species.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wI-9RJi0Qo

A follower of movnat also hunted a deer in California this way, and killed it with a rock.

This is different, but another example of someone catching a wild animal without weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqko-lxsQsE


No Miles, both of us are weak though interms of intelligence i am superior without a shroud of a doubt.
Nice vid by the way, though the human got lucky because the ground was flat.

8 hours to track down one kudu!! I am pretty sure that our ancestors didnt rely mainly on meat on their diet. If every hunt took 8 hours, we wouldnt even have time to evolve interms of civilization and intelligence. That's why the theory of our ancestors relying mainly and only on meat isnt accurate.

Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: MoonStalkeR on January 04, 2011, 04:50:55 am
And what are your ideas on what would they have to eat besides meat?
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: miles on January 04, 2011, 04:51:16 am
No Miles, both of us are weak though interms of intelligence i am superior without a shroud of a doubt.
Nice vid by the way, though the human got lucky because the ground was flat.

8 hours to track down one kudu!! I am pretty sure that our ancestors didn't rely mainly on meat on their diet. If every hunt took 8 hours, we wouldnt even have time to evolve interms of civilization and intelligence. That's why the theory of our ancestors relying mainly and only on meat isnt accurate.

Civilisation came with grain and agriculture.

Coming up with different ways of acquiring food is how humans evolved.

'The Human' did not 'get lucky', he used his intelligence, and as I said someone has done this in California, in a forest.

That Kudu can feed a group of humans for plenty long enough for them to recover for the next hunt, and more in between.

A wolf is much weaker than many animals it hunts as well.

You are infinitesimally more intelligent than I.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: whatever on January 04, 2011, 04:51:29 am
Which ones? I am pretty sure if i raced a horse or even an elephant i will lose.

Men can run for 24 hours or even 48 hours with little rest or eating. There is no other animal that can do that. they over heat pretty fast or must stop for eating or drinking men can eat and drink while running.

Now people run marathons, 40 really hard km's. only they eat wrong, they run wrong, there legs are really weak and there breathing is wrong no wonder they barely can run 40km.

Read born to run or if you can read dutch "de mens als duurloper" from jan knippenberg amazing stories about running (jan did 400 km's in 43 hours and he ran from the netherlands to stockholm just because he can).
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Caveman on January 04, 2011, 05:03:27 am
It's pretty easy to see that a raw vegan diet will leave you very "cleansed". Possibly too much. Eating Paleo is definitely more rebuilding to the body because of the meats and fats from animals.

I don't want to say that being vegan is a bad choice for your health, but for long term, I don't think it's very optimal for us.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 05:05:23 am
Civilisation came with grain and agriculture.

Possibly, because meat couldnt be our primary source of diet. We dont get much of it to feed our ever growing population; 8 hours for a single hunt!!. We cant survive harsh weather conditions. Our strength is actually our fear which is ironically also our weakness.
Humans are more complicated creatures. we dont just live to hunt. And that was just one kudu!! Imagine if we were to face a pack of wolves, or lions or who knows. Before you jump your guns here, i ll tell you what happens; we might win a battle after loosing many casualties. Give any human food and shelter and he will refrain from killing or hunting.

Reason i am right on the money, is because that's what we've grown to be in our present time.  

Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Caveman on January 04, 2011, 05:13:27 am
Our lifespan is greater than that of our ancestors. Our intelligence has also increased.

You can't state that as fact. Maybe we've come a small way from our near ancestors from some hundred years ago, but there is so much we have yet to learn about our true long-term history. Judging by the intelligence of the majority of human beings on earth today, I don't think our intelligence has increased much. All these universities and schools really don't mean much. What has increased is our ability to complicate things.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 05:15:35 am
It's pretty easy to see that a raw vegan diet will leave you very "cleansed". Possibly too much. Eating Paleo is definitely more rebuilding to the body because of the meats and fats from animals.

I don't want to say that being vegan is a bad choice for your health, but for long term, I don't think it's very optimal for us.

Hi Caveman,

i would just like to point out that i am not a vegan. I am just debating and asking questions.

Another thing that vegans claim, and again one more time with a feeling, science smiles at them, is that there is nothing that meat provides from nutrients that you cant get from vegetable sources or fruits only in a cleaner state.

Did you know that by putting our bodies and minds under such tension during the hunting, we are secreting more and more adrenaline which is a poison in greater amounts than normal. When we hunt down an animal, the animal which is slaughtered also secretes large amounts of adrenaline due to fear and that's what we get when we eat its meat.

The vegans say that. And science confirms this.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 04, 2011, 05:15:40 am
Possibly, because meat couldnt be our primary source of diet. We dont get much of it to feed our ever growing population; 8 hours for a single hunt!!. We cant survive harsh weather conditions. Our strength is actually our fear which is ironically also our weakness.
Humans are more complicated creatures. we dont just live to hunt. And that was just one kudu!! Imagine if we were to face a pack of wolves, or lions or who knows. Before you jump your guns here, i ll tell you what happens; we might win a battle after loosing many casualties. Give any human food and shelter and he will refrain from killing or hunting.

Reason i am right on the money, is because that's what we've grown to be in our present time. 



First of all not ALL hunts would have been 8+ hours long.

Two theories.

There is a theory out there that humans became agriculturalists because we were actually TOO successful at being predators and made prey populations low.

Another possibility is that humans became agriculturalists because agricultural societies would naturally have a high population growth. They would have out-competed hunter gather populations. Grain is not an ideal food because we did NOT evolve with it, but it is very cheap and for the purpose of feeding an increasing population it is useful. Just because a population is higher does NOT mean that they are any healthier.

"Give any human food and shelter and he will refrain from killing or hunting."

Of course. Why would any organism want to work, if it doesn't have to in order to survive. I don't really see a point here.

There is a book out there called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. It explains a lot of stuff about agriculturalists and hunter gathers. It is a good book and I recommend it.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 04, 2011, 05:17:40 am
You can't state that as fact. Maybe we've come a small way from our near ancestors from some hundred years ago, but there is so much we have yet to learn about our true long-term history. Judging by the intelligence of the majority of human beings on earth today, I don't think our intelligence has increased much. All these universities and schools really don't mean much. What has increased is our ability to complicate things.

Nowadays, intelligence can be misconstrued as a good ability to regurgitate information. Just because one regurgitates information some authority figure says is correct doesn't mean one is necessarily intelligent.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: miles on January 04, 2011, 05:18:32 am
Possibly, because meat couldnt be our primary source of diet. We dont get much of it to feed our ever growing population; 8 hours for a single hunt!!. We cant survive harsh weather conditions. Our strength is actually our fear which is ironically also our weakness.
Humans are more complicated creatures. we dont just live to hunt. And that was just one kudu!! Imagine if we were to face a pack of wolves, or lions or who knows. Before you jump your guns here, i ll tell you what happens; we might win a battle after loosing many casualties. Give any human food and shelter and he will refrain from killing or hunting.

Reason i am right on the money, is because that's what we've grown to be in our present time.  



?????????????????????????????????????????????????? wtf. "People can't survive harsh weather conditions" wtf are you on about? You're just talking bullshit. I cba to refute any more because you're just so full of crap which you're unwilling to flush, that there's no room for anything else to go into your mind.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 05:22:32 am
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? wtf. "People can't survive harsh weather conditions" wtf are you on about? You're just talking bullshit. Go on being a pussy I don't care.

What about the rest of the post Mr. Penis? Your radar just picked this statement? If you want to be obstinate, then thats more than fine with me. Humans can survive but not thrive.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: miles on January 04, 2011, 05:25:44 am
What about the rest of the post Mr. Penis? Your radar just picked this statement? If you want to be obstinate, then thats more than fine with me. Humans can survive but not thrive.

It was just a prime example of your faggotry.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 05:26:26 am
Hi Caveman,

i would just like to point out that i am not a vegan. I am just debating and asking questions.

Another thing that vegans claim, and again one more time with a feeling, science smiles at them, is that there is nothing that meat provides from nutrients that you cant get from vegetable sources or fruits only in a cleaner state.

Did you know that by putting our bodies and minds under such tension during the hunting, we are secreting more and more adrenaline which is a poison in greater amounts than normal. When we hunt down an animal, the animal which is slaughtered also secretes large amounts of adrenaline due to fear and that's what we get when we eat its meat.

The vegans say that. And science confirms this.


I am still waiting for your explanations on the above.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 05:30:33 am
It was just a prime example of your faggotry.

and you're straighter than a roundabout, numb-nuts. 
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe on January 04, 2011, 05:35:46 am
Nowadays, intelligence can be misconstrued as a good ability to regurgitate information. Just because you regurgitate information some authority figure says is correct doesn't mean one is necessarily intelligent.

Look at how much we achieved in terms of inventions and technologies in the last 150 years, CHK91. Our intelligence is definitely increasing.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 04, 2011, 05:47:11 am
Hi Caveman,

i would just like to point out that i am not a vegan. I am just debating and asking questions.

Another thing that vegans claim, and again one more time with a feeling, science smiles at them, is that there is nothing that meat provides from nutrients that you cant get from vegetable sources or fruits only in a cleaner state.

Did you know that by putting our bodies and minds under such tension during the hunting, we are secreting more and more adrenaline which is a poison in greater amounts than normal. When we hunt down an animal, the animal which is slaughtered also secretes large amounts of adrenaline due to fear and that's what we get when we eat its meat.

The vegans say that. And science confirms this.

Vitamin A(Retinol): Active vitamin A, retinol does NOT exist in plants. Carotenes are poorly converted into retinol. Fats are needed for this conversion to be more efficient. Low fat veganism would cause deficiency in retinol.

Vitamin D: Yes, theoretically vegans can get vitamin D, if they go out in the sun, and if they are at lower latitudes. However, CHOLESTEROL is needed to form vitamin D, CHOLEcalciferol.

Zinc and copper: Plants are a poor source of zinc and are often high in copper. High copper levels cause adrenal stress.

EPA/DHA omega 3: It does not exist in any appreciable amounts in plants. Human conversion is weak (5% ish) and is especially weak for those that have ancestors that consistently have eaten fish.

Minerals in general: They are not as bioavailable in plants.

Vitamin B12: There is no reliable food sources of B12 for vegans.

Problem with fat soluble vitamins A D E K: There are many vegans who have a low fat diet which make these deficiencies even worse.

Meats are the only reliable source of important amino acid derivatives like Taurine, Carnitine, and Creatine
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Iguana on January 04, 2011, 05:48:01 am
 
I am still waiting for your explanations on the above.

We don't even have to hunt and kill to eat meat. There are roadkills  ;D
I'm kidding but there are other circumstances in nature in which human have been able to access meat without killing, such as leftovers from predators or chasing a predator to steal its prey.

That said, humans are omnivores and I doubt very much they ever ate exclusively meat, and certainly not exclusively meat from large mammals.

Look at how much we achieved in terms of inventions and technologies in the last 150 years, CHK91. Our intelligence is definitely increasing.

Don’t confuse intelligence with knowledge. The last is increasing because it accumulates by written communication between generations and improving circulation of information. Intelligence is not increasing.  
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 04, 2011, 05:50:41 am
Look at how much we achieved in terms of inventions and technologies in the last 150 years, CHK91. Our intelligence is definitely increasing.


Inventions and technologies come from accumulation of knowledge. An accumulation of knowledge does not automatically mean increased intelligence. A greater library of knowledge enables the formation of more scientific questions. More scientific questions mean more experiments leading to more knowledge. And so on...
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: sabertooth on January 04, 2011, 06:11:52 am
I knew a man that claimed he could run down deer by tracking them through the woods and chasing them and after a couple of hours the deer would would be so exhausted he could walk up close and  take them out easily with a bow and arrow. He was in his 60s when I met him and he was still strong as hell. He claims he built up his strength by milking cows by hand, and other basic farm work as a child. He also had an IQ of 160 and possessed a number of superhuman skills. But chasing down animals on foot seems a feat in itself.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: yon yonson on January 04, 2011, 06:12:13 am
Look at how much we achieved in terms of inventions and technologies in the last 150 years, CHK91. Our intelligence is definitely increasing.


sir, you are incorrect. technology does not equal intelligence. can't you see this technology is killing the planet? far from intelligent in my opinion
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Stancel on January 04, 2011, 06:23:33 am
There is a whole other category of animals called scavengers. Hominids like Australopithecus probably starting eating large animals as left-overs from other animals' hunting. Maybe tool use developed when we needed to extract the brains and marrow from bones. then later humans became hunters.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 04, 2011, 06:31:56 am
This guy is not raw paleo but he needs his beef!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkg5Sx-o1m8

I am an athlete. i don't do well without red meat. I feel best with red meat, I will eat it even if only cooked is availible.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 04, 2011, 06:39:09 am
sir, you are incorrect. technology does not equal intelligence. can't you see this technology is killing the planet? far from intelligent in my opinion
Exactly.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 04, 2011, 06:39:44 am
Change this to "Fads vs Natural Diet"

Durianrider mentions a vegan by the name of Mac Danzig an mma fighter. He is not even a raw vegan (cooked), and he eats nuts avocados etc.

Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: sabertooth on January 04, 2011, 06:40:49 am
I do want to believe you, but what's the science behind that? The evidence they give is actually convincing and true to the best of my knowledge. 

There is no real double blind scientific research on what raw paleo dieters are doing. I can tell you that there is an adaption that took place in myself which allows me to thrive off of two pounds of red meat and half a pound of raw fat each day. I also eat high meat which seems to prime the gut for optimal meat digestion. Any pro vegan study out there, I can tell you, will not include subjects like myself who are already adapted to a carnivorous diet, so they can claim to be right about meat not digesting as well in the average grain eatting Joe. But I am a different animal, especially after eatting high meat; my mouth salivates with enzyme rich digestive juices and I can feel the ease at which my gut can handle over a pound and a half of raw flesh in one sitting.

 I have had no issues with digesting meats, while If I eat vegtables I will get bloated and feel terrible. Once I became adapted to meat then I lost the ability to handle vegges, Its a trade off I was willing to make. Some people can adapt to large amounts of raw meat and still digest vegtables just fine, but I cant.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: TylerDurden on January 04, 2011, 07:07:18 am
The various arguments can be easily debunked. First of all, the notion that we have become more intelligent. Only during the meat-eating days of the palaeolithic era, is that true. In the last 35,000-10,000 years our brains decreased in volume by 3 percent(when its theorised we started eating fewer animal foods), and in the last 10,000 years, our brains decreased in volume by  a further 8 percent, once the Neolithic diet came in with all its huge amounts of extra grains and starches etc. The decrease in brain-size does not automatically correlate with decreased IQ, but there is a further factor, namely natural selection, which would have been more present in palaeo times, but which disappeared as a factor once settled civilisation came to pass. So, it is reasonably certain that Intelligence dropped when the Neolithic era came about.

The claim re stronger  stomach acid than humans in carnivores is, of course, meaningless, as humans have a longer digestive tract/gut/intestine to compensate for that.The notion re humans taking ages to hunt is also ridiculous, as there is the scavenger theory which shows that ancient humans at least did some scavenging of prey after other predator species had had their fill; but also, there are very famous palaeolithic sites, such as at Solutre in France, where it was proven that Cro-Magnon hunters would force entire herds of wild horses over the cliffs etc.:-

http://www.oldstoneage.com/montetwhite/solutre.shtml

http://archaeozoo.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/horse-hunting-in-magdalenian-france/

As for no evidence about rawpalaeodiets, that's not quite true. There is a HUGE amount of scientific evidence debunking the notion that cooked foods are healthy(such as studies on the heat-created toxins in cooked foods), a number of studies showing negative effects of non-palaeo foods, and most of the studies done on raw vegan diets have shown serious problems arising from them long-term, such as amennorhea etc.

That reminds me, I ought to do a few  sticky threads here on evidence from palaeo times, and on rawplaeodiet.com. It's a fascinating subject, given things like cave-art(I often find that those "primitive" Cro-Magnon hunters produced paintings of a far greater complexity and brilliance than anything any modern painter has done since the ghastly Impressionism got started, with one or two exceptions like Escher or Vallejo).

Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Stancel on January 04, 2011, 08:09:52 am
Sometimes small lizards come into the house. I am very good at catching them with my hands. I haven't eaten them, though, just using it as an example...and of course insects are very easy to catch. The eating of small animals likely extends far back in primate evolution, way before the eating of large animals. This would suggest that omnivorism is much more rooted in our biology than we think.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: King Salmon on January 04, 2011, 08:23:28 am
Where can i read the history of those members you are referring to?

Check out the journals.The ones I read were Lex Rooker's and Actionhero's.They both have had good success.

 
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: MoonStalkeR on January 04, 2011, 08:46:34 am
Sometimes small lizards come into the house. I am very good at catching them with my hands. I haven't eaten them, though, just using it as an example...and of course insects are very easy to catch. The eating of small animals likely extends far back in primate evolution, way before the eating of large animals. This would suggest that omnivorism is much more rooted in our biology than we think.

All modern mammals are descended from small insectivorous ancestors, likely further descended from carnivorous reptiles that depended on large prey. The fact that humans evolved recently from omnivorous apes probably explains the omnivore-like anatomy.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: kurite on January 04, 2011, 03:09:00 pm
Hi Caveman,

i would just like to point out that i am not a vegan. I am just debating and asking questions.

Another thing that vegans claim, and again one more time with a feeling, science smiles at them, is that there is nothing that meat provides from nutrients that you cant get from vegetable sources or fruits only in a cleaner state.

Did you know that by putting our bodies and minds under such tension during the hunting, we are secreting more and more adrenaline which is a poison in greater amounts than normal. When we hunt down an animal, the animal which is slaughtered also secretes large amounts of adrenaline due to fear and that's what we get when we eat its meat.

The vegans say that. And science confirms this.
First of all David, aren't you an active member on 30 bananas a day? I read up on that site every now and then and Im pretty sure Ive seen you. The truth is a lot of the members here have tried the fruitarian lifestyle, we followed the "rules" of eating that way and it failed us so we turned to raw paleo.

I love how vegans say theres all of this proof about things like the adrenaline in meat, some are true but most are absolute BS. Even your adrenaline in meat statement, if you try to google it Im pretty sure all your going to find is a bunch of vegan and vegetarian sites saying this but no actual study confirming this. Not to mention the fact that any natural hormore in foods would most likely simply digested instead of utilized directly.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: TylerDurden on January 04, 2011, 03:19:43 pm
One of DurianRider/Harley
's stooges? Well, his attempt was rather pathetic. Why they even
bother is puzzling, when they must know by now that at least half of us are ex-raw vegans/fruitarians.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Iguana on January 04, 2011, 04:28:18 pm
So, it is reasonably certain that Intelligence dropped when the Neolithic era came about.
 

For sure, the proportion of morons in the actual human population is huge – probably even greater than that of sick and obese ones. As you say, all those would have been eliminated by natural selection. Intelligence helps to survive in the wild.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: kurite on January 04, 2011, 04:36:39 pm
One of DurianRider/Harley
's stooges? Well, his attempt was rather pathetic. Why they even
bother is puzzling, when they must know by now that at least half of us are ex-raw vegans/fruitarians.

Well I have no idea on his status in the community, just that hes an active part of it. The funny part is that they started a discussion about if anyone has been on the paleo diet and none of them have. I dont understand how they honestly can say that our diet sucks when they haven't even tried it.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 04, 2011, 04:56:10 pm
One of DurianRider/Harley
's stooges? Well, his attempt was rather pathetic. Why they even
bother is puzzling, when they must know by now that at least half of us are ex-raw vegans/fruitarians.

he tried to give his dog a banana in a video lmao. It didn't eat it. I commented, and said hopefully our feeding them raw meat. He blocked me. He tries to comment on my video directed towards him. I won't block him, he is ridiculous
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: David Howe Returns on January 04, 2011, 05:56:16 pm
One of DurianRider/Harley
's stooges? Well, his attempt was rather pathetic. Why they even
bother is puzzling, when they must know by now that at least half of us are ex-raw vegans/fruitarians.


Tylar, Kurite
I was exiled from there (30 BAD), for the same reasons i was exiled from here with my first account; asking too many forbidden questions.
This place is flooded with moderators, super moderators, global moderators and God knows what. I am asking you guys to give me a chance to stay with you on the forum. I am not a vegan, and i am still experimenting with diets. I have been on a raw diet for only one month now. I thought i made this clear in my brief intro thread.

I am an inquisitive man, i ask alot of questions. I address you with my doubts so that i hear your best and most sincere answers. I have been reading those answers and i must say i havent thought about the whole thing from your perspective. You guys say you were vegans; tried it and found it to be bad; well i am saying i was never a vegan and i only ask to be given a chance to learn from the best. You guys obviously have years of experience ahead of me, and i d rather learn from the mistakes of others than let my body pay the price.

I dont know why i was banned, i hope i am not banned again and if i were, i ll not bother and register again, you can have my word on that. I thought this section was for debates / threads like that.

Thanks,
David

 
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: kurite on January 04, 2011, 06:53:14 pm
Not sure why you were banned David, but still back to the topic, do you have any actual data about the adrenaline in meat idea? What evidence is there that it has any negative effect on our health? I already know the answer just kinda wanna show you that vegans really make up a bunch of sh!t that makes sense enough that other vegans agree with them and then the idea with no scientific basis spreads. If you actually dig deep and find the real research on meat you will find it to be healthy, even though you should really just experience it for yourself, your body knows.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: achillezzz on January 04, 2011, 07:58:17 pm
We don't even need to chase animals 8hours to hunt...
I am in shock that nobody Mentioned the fact that we could hunt in groups...

Imagine that surround an animal with humans who have weapon and slowly get close to the animal NO WAY TO RUN!! the animal is DOOMED!!
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 04, 2011, 09:54:24 pm
We should NOT ban people who have dissenting opinions. The extreme vegan community would do that to anyone that questions their way of life. If we do the same, we look really bad to neutrals. This forum should have open debate. It should not be a "circlejerk". :P

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: turkish on January 04, 2011, 11:57:29 pm
Vegans do a better marketing job, my family was raw vegan - untill we ran into serious health issues. Paid heavily with lost money and time. You will find it strange that i was visiting this site & vegan sites couple of years back. But i eventually choose "vegan". My final theory is that lies are more seductive.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: CHK91 on January 05, 2011, 12:10:00 am
Vegans do a better marketing job, my family was raw vegan - untill we ran into serious health issues. Paid heavily with lost money and time. You will find it strange that i was visiting this site & vegan sites couple of years back. But i eventually choose "vegan". My final theory is that lies are more seductive.
This is what Hitler said: ""The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one."

Sadly, this is true. :( Unfortunately, he was able to take advantage of this fact.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 05, 2011, 01:13:05 am
We don't even need to chase animals 8hours to hunt...
I am in shock that nobody Mentioned the fact that we could hunt in groups...

Imagine that surround an animal with humans who have weapon and slowly get close to the animal NO WAY TO RUN!! the animal is DOOMED!!
I killed a wild goose in the amtter of seconds, i used a stick I picked up randomly.  :-*

Yeah, imagine hunting in a group!! How our ancestors did. Too easy at times.

Edit: I actually killed it bare handed. I jus stunned it with the stick out of the air.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: wodgina on January 05, 2011, 05:16:04 am
We should NOT ban people who have dissenting opinions. The extreme vegan community would do that to anyone that questions their way of life. If we do the same, we look really bad to neutrals. This forum should have open debate. It should not be a "circlejerk". :P

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire


Once you've been a Mod for a while you realise people who are here to cause trouble. They are unbelievably easy to spot and the formulaic controversy making then personal attacks. As David Howe did.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Nation on January 08, 2011, 05:07:33 am
This man, a vegetarian and PETA advocate, is scheduled to fight the #1 pound-for-pound fighter George St-Pierre April 30th. If he were to win, the top fighter on the planet would be a vegetarian.

Meet Jake Shields.

(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff189/Salmonblaster/jakeshieldsworkout-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 08, 2011, 06:35:35 am
This man, a vegetarian and PETA advocate, is scheduled to fight the #1 pound-for-pound fighter George St-Pierre April 30th. If he were to win, the top fighter on the planet would be a vegetarian.

Meet Jake Shields.

(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff189/Salmonblaster/jakeshieldsworkout-2.jpg)
All the top fighters do eat meat. Jake is prob. going to lose that one. Lets also keep in mind he is a cooked vegan, not a fruititarian. ;) I did better on cooked vegan over raw as well. But I the best on a diet including meat.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 08, 2011, 06:38:54 am
He is also not a low fat low protein vegan like many rawvegans/fruititarians.

Hah, says here he is a lacto ovo vegetarian. He eats dairy and eggs!!! lmao
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 08, 2011, 06:46:42 am
http://www.themmadigest.com/2007/08/veggie-power-jake-shields-interview/
far from low fat raw vegan....

What are your main protein sources?
Probably eggs and I eat beans and a little bit of soy nuts and milk and a little bit of tofu, and usually that’s enough but if I feel I need more protein I might make some protein shakes with whey protein.

Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: B.Money on January 08, 2011, 10:33:02 am
I don't get the fighter picture... hes not muscular, or lean, and just by looking at the picture I can also safely say pretty weak. I am sure he can run for awhile and knows lots of great fighting moves and all though...
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: kurite on January 08, 2011, 11:48:09 am
Nah hes strong as hell, its hard to tell strength from size. It just depends on how you train your muscles.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: B.Money on January 08, 2011, 01:49:58 pm
Sure its not a linear relationship between size and strength, but the relationship exists. I don't doubt hes stronger than the average Joe off the streets or someone who does not train specifically for strength, and I don't mean any disrespect towards him because I know that is not his goal to be super strong or super muscular or lean.

I just was wondering if I missed what was shocking about him being vegetarian. I mistakenly am mixing the strength training realm with the real world and comparing apples to oranges I suppose.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 08, 2011, 01:56:53 pm
How can a vegetarian eat eggs? lacto-ovo veg. That's an omnivore to me. Then there are thos ethat just eat fish. Give me a break.

BTW Jake looks leaner at 170, in the photo Nation posted he is training to fight at middleweight 185.


Here he is at 170, he is fighting back at 170 now. His last fight he did, now he is fighting for the title. He is a good athlete. He primarily does grappling though.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IWeDtOd7wHA/TMRPMUk-EmI/AAAAAAAACwg/bgVezOJEVi4/s1600/ufc121-shields-vs-kampmann.JPG

http://www.fiveknuckles.com/assets/images/articles/jake-shields11.jpg


Edit: I guess a vegetarian is someone who doesn't eat fowl or mammals. Can they eat insects, reptiles? What the hell is a vegetarian nowadays. Just no red meat?

And by primarily does grappling, I mean that's what he mainly uses in his fights. He calls it american jujitsu.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Brother on January 08, 2011, 02:10:38 pm
Quote
If he were to win, the top fighter on the planet would be a vegetarian.

I disagree entirely. The top figher on the planet is a Russian named Fedor. He is bad ass concentrate.

Meet Fedor Emelianenko

(http://pinoytutorial.com/lifebytes/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/fedor-emelianenko.jpg)

His diet is everything except white sugar. Given the choice between fighting him or a honey badger. Id opt for the badger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77QoN2P90b0
(Typical opponent comment after the fight; ZOMG haX!!1one!)
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 08, 2011, 02:14:38 pm
Did you here about the strikeforce tournament?


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pBWa31-QiJk/TSOxilEUcZI/AAAAAAAACkQ/8KdXibDBbOY/s1600/Strikeforce+Heavyweight+Grand+Prix+Brackets.jpg

Gonna be nice, fedor is fighting in Feb. Fedor could fight Werdum again. But I think Alistair Overeem might win the tournament. Either him or Fedor.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Brother on January 08, 2011, 02:22:45 pm
Thanks for the heads up. I hope to be able to catch that somewhere. Obviously Fedor can go down just like anyone else. But have you noticed how his oponents often have a look on their face as the fight starts, that seem to say that they too, would have opted for the badger in that moment in time. For sheer controlled brutality, there is nobody like him IMO. I would like to see a vegan, especially a raw vegan enter in at this level and do well.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: ezekiel on January 08, 2011, 03:15:40 pm
Thanks for the heads up. I hope to be able to catch that somewhere. Obviously Fedor can go down just like anyone else. But have you noticed how his oponents often have a look on their face as the fight starts, that seem to say that they too, would have opted for the badger in that moment in time. For sheer controlled brutality, there is nobody like him IMO. I would like to see a vegan, especially a raw vegan enter in at this level and do well.
There is a vegan named Mac Danzig in the UFC, he's not anywhere near a title shot. But in a few solid wins he could be. He just won by knockout, who knows where his future lies, he has had his ups and downs. He eats cooked vegan foods of course.

You know fedor lost to Werdum right? In the 1st round by triangle choke, Fedor knocked him down and went in for the kill and got caught in a triangle slash armbar.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Nation on January 08, 2011, 06:48:47 pm
While we're on the topic of fighters' diet, Andrei Arlovski was on the show "UFC all access" a few years ago, he described his diet and it was nothing but meat and eggs, and a little bit of veggies. They showed him eating breakfast and it was a steak and an omelet, no carbs at all. He may very well be close to zero carb.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: bharminder on January 08, 2011, 06:54:46 pm
I don't watch much of these fights other than recently on Youtube, but I want to see Overeem vs Fedor.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: sabertooth on January 08, 2011, 09:58:59 pm
I have watched some of Fedors fights and I was always impressed by the completely calm expression he has right before facing some of the most brutal opponents imaginable( I see no fear in that man). I believe he is the greatest fighter that I have seen. He makes what he does seem so effortless.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: Brother on January 08, 2011, 10:33:54 pm
Quote
You know fedor lost to Werdum right? In the 1st round by triangle choke, Fedor knocked him down and went in for the kill and got caught in a triangle slash armbar.

I didnt know that. I am not really a MMA fan. I just caught a couple of Fedors fights on youtube and was impressed. He fight with the brutality of someone fighting for his life. But that does not mean he cant go down, get sucker punched or end up positioning himself in a bad way.

Quote
He makes what he does seem so effortless.

Exactly. With Fedor you can really see the difference between skill and talent. Training can get you skill and skill will get you far, but against someone who is also very talented you will loose unless he fucks up himself and you get a suckerpunch chance.

Quote
While we're on the topic of fighters' diet, Andrei Arlovski was on the show "UFC all access" a few years ago, he described his diet and it was nothing but meat and eggs, and a little bit of veggies.

Another frighteningly good figher. I saw his fight against Fedor in which he was dominant untill Fedor spotted an opening and took an elbow to his face. Clean knock out.  I wonder what they put in the water in Russia.

Fedor is the human equalent of a honey badger. The most baddass animal in the world.
Title: Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
Post by: turkish on January 08, 2011, 11:00:46 pm
How can a vegetarian eat eggs? lacto-ovo veg. That's an omnivore to me. Then there are thos ethat just eat fish. Give me a break.

this whole vegetarian/non-veg thing is an artificial abstraction made by humans - it does not exist in nature.