Author Topic: Raw Vegan vs Paleo  (Read 29006 times)

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Offline miles

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2011, 04:51:16 am »
No Miles, both of us are weak though interms of intelligence i am superior without a shroud of a doubt.
Nice vid by the way, though the human got lucky because the ground was flat.

8 hours to track down one kudu!! I am pretty sure that our ancestors didn't rely mainly on meat on their diet. If every hunt took 8 hours, we wouldnt even have time to evolve interms of civilization and intelligence. That's why the theory of our ancestors relying mainly and only on meat isnt accurate.

Civilisation came with grain and agriculture.

Coming up with different ways of acquiring food is how humans evolved.

'The Human' did not 'get lucky', he used his intelligence, and as I said someone has done this in California, in a forest.

That Kudu can feed a group of humans for plenty long enough for them to recover for the next hunt, and more in between.

A wolf is much weaker than many animals it hunts as well.

You are infinitesimally more intelligent than I.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 04:59:09 am by miles »
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Offline whatever

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2011, 04:51:29 am »
Which ones? I am pretty sure if i raced a horse or even an elephant i will lose.

Men can run for 24 hours or even 48 hours with little rest or eating. There is no other animal that can do that. they over heat pretty fast or must stop for eating or drinking men can eat and drink while running.

Now people run marathons, 40 really hard km's. only they eat wrong, they run wrong, there legs are really weak and there breathing is wrong no wonder they barely can run 40km.

Read born to run or if you can read dutch "de mens als duurloper" from jan knippenberg amazing stories about running (jan did 400 km's in 43 hours and he ran from the netherlands to stockholm just because he can).

Offline Caveman

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2011, 05:03:27 am »
It's pretty easy to see that a raw vegan diet will leave you very "cleansed". Possibly too much. Eating Paleo is definitely more rebuilding to the body because of the meats and fats from animals.

I don't want to say that being vegan is a bad choice for your health, but for long term, I don't think it's very optimal for us.

Offline David Howe

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2011, 05:05:23 am »
Civilisation came with grain and agriculture.

Possibly, because meat couldnt be our primary source of diet. We dont get much of it to feed our ever growing population; 8 hours for a single hunt!!. We cant survive harsh weather conditions. Our strength is actually our fear which is ironically also our weakness.
Humans are more complicated creatures. we dont just live to hunt. And that was just one kudu!! Imagine if we were to face a pack of wolves, or lions or who knows. Before you jump your guns here, i ll tell you what happens; we might win a battle after loosing many casualties. Give any human food and shelter and he will refrain from killing or hunting.

Reason i am right on the money, is because that's what we've grown to be in our present time.  


Offline Caveman

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2011, 05:13:27 am »
Our lifespan is greater than that of our ancestors. Our intelligence has also increased.

You can't state that as fact. Maybe we've come a small way from our near ancestors from some hundred years ago, but there is so much we have yet to learn about our true long-term history. Judging by the intelligence of the majority of human beings on earth today, I don't think our intelligence has increased much. All these universities and schools really don't mean much. What has increased is our ability to complicate things.

Offline David Howe

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2011, 05:15:35 am »
It's pretty easy to see that a raw vegan diet will leave you very "cleansed". Possibly too much. Eating Paleo is definitely more rebuilding to the body because of the meats and fats from animals.

I don't want to say that being vegan is a bad choice for your health, but for long term, I don't think it's very optimal for us.

Hi Caveman,

i would just like to point out that i am not a vegan. I am just debating and asking questions.

Another thing that vegans claim, and again one more time with a feeling, science smiles at them, is that there is nothing that meat provides from nutrients that you cant get from vegetable sources or fruits only in a cleaner state.

Did you know that by putting our bodies and minds under such tension during the hunting, we are secreting more and more adrenaline which is a poison in greater amounts than normal. When we hunt down an animal, the animal which is slaughtered also secretes large amounts of adrenaline due to fear and that's what we get when we eat its meat.

The vegans say that. And science confirms this.

Offline CHK91

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2011, 05:15:40 am »
Possibly, because meat couldnt be our primary source of diet. We dont get much of it to feed our ever growing population; 8 hours for a single hunt!!. We cant survive harsh weather conditions. Our strength is actually our fear which is ironically also our weakness.
Humans are more complicated creatures. we dont just live to hunt. And that was just one kudu!! Imagine if we were to face a pack of wolves, or lions or who knows. Before you jump your guns here, i ll tell you what happens; we might win a battle after loosing many casualties. Give any human food and shelter and he will refrain from killing or hunting.

Reason i am right on the money, is because that's what we've grown to be in our present time. 



First of all not ALL hunts would have been 8+ hours long.

Two theories.

There is a theory out there that humans became agriculturalists because we were actually TOO successful at being predators and made prey populations low.

Another possibility is that humans became agriculturalists because agricultural societies would naturally have a high population growth. They would have out-competed hunter gather populations. Grain is not an ideal food because we did NOT evolve with it, but it is very cheap and for the purpose of feeding an increasing population it is useful. Just because a population is higher does NOT mean that they are any healthier.

"Give any human food and shelter and he will refrain from killing or hunting."

Of course. Why would any organism want to work, if it doesn't have to in order to survive. I don't really see a point here.

There is a book out there called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. It explains a lot of stuff about agriculturalists and hunter gathers. It is a good book and I recommend it.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 05:24:32 am by CHK91 »
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Offline CHK91

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2011, 05:17:40 am »
You can't state that as fact. Maybe we've come a small way from our near ancestors from some hundred years ago, but there is so much we have yet to learn about our true long-term history. Judging by the intelligence of the majority of human beings on earth today, I don't think our intelligence has increased much. All these universities and schools really don't mean much. What has increased is our ability to complicate things.

Nowadays, intelligence can be misconstrued as a good ability to regurgitate information. Just because one regurgitates information some authority figure says is correct doesn't mean one is necessarily intelligent.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 05:32:58 am by CHK91 »
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Offline miles

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2011, 05:18:32 am »
Possibly, because meat couldnt be our primary source of diet. We dont get much of it to feed our ever growing population; 8 hours for a single hunt!!. We cant survive harsh weather conditions. Our strength is actually our fear which is ironically also our weakness.
Humans are more complicated creatures. we dont just live to hunt. And that was just one kudu!! Imagine if we were to face a pack of wolves, or lions or who knows. Before you jump your guns here, i ll tell you what happens; we might win a battle after loosing many casualties. Give any human food and shelter and he will refrain from killing or hunting.

Reason i am right on the money, is because that's what we've grown to be in our present time.  



?????????????????????????????????????????????????? wtf. "People can't survive harsh weather conditions" wtf are you on about? You're just talking bullshit. I cba to refute any more because you're just so full of crap which you're unwilling to flush, that there's no room for anything else to go into your mind.
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Offline David Howe

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2011, 05:22:32 am »
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? wtf. "People can't survive harsh weather conditions" wtf are you on about? You're just talking bullshit. Go on being a pussy I don't care.

What about the rest of the post Mr. Penis? Your radar just picked this statement? If you want to be obstinate, then thats more than fine with me. Humans can survive but not thrive.

Offline miles

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2011, 05:25:44 am »
What about the rest of the post Mr. Penis? Your radar just picked this statement? If you want to be obstinate, then thats more than fine with me. Humans can survive but not thrive.

It was just a prime example of your faggotry.
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Offline David Howe

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2011, 05:26:26 am »
Hi Caveman,

i would just like to point out that i am not a vegan. I am just debating and asking questions.

Another thing that vegans claim, and again one more time with a feeling, science smiles at them, is that there is nothing that meat provides from nutrients that you cant get from vegetable sources or fruits only in a cleaner state.

Did you know that by putting our bodies and minds under such tension during the hunting, we are secreting more and more adrenaline which is a poison in greater amounts than normal. When we hunt down an animal, the animal which is slaughtered also secretes large amounts of adrenaline due to fear and that's what we get when we eat its meat.

The vegans say that. And science confirms this.


I am still waiting for your explanations on the above.

Offline David Howe

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2011, 05:30:33 am »
It was just a prime example of your faggotry.

and you're straighter than a roundabout, numb-nuts. 

Offline David Howe

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2011, 05:35:46 am »
Nowadays, intelligence can be misconstrued as a good ability to regurgitate information. Just because you regurgitate information some authority figure says is correct doesn't mean one is necessarily intelligent.

Look at how much we achieved in terms of inventions and technologies in the last 150 years, CHK91. Our intelligence is definitely increasing.

Offline CHK91

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2011, 05:47:11 am »
Hi Caveman,

i would just like to point out that i am not a vegan. I am just debating and asking questions.

Another thing that vegans claim, and again one more time with a feeling, science smiles at them, is that there is nothing that meat provides from nutrients that you cant get from vegetable sources or fruits only in a cleaner state.

Did you know that by putting our bodies and minds under such tension during the hunting, we are secreting more and more adrenaline which is a poison in greater amounts than normal. When we hunt down an animal, the animal which is slaughtered also secretes large amounts of adrenaline due to fear and that's what we get when we eat its meat.

The vegans say that. And science confirms this.

Vitamin A(Retinol): Active vitamin A, retinol does NOT exist in plants. Carotenes are poorly converted into retinol. Fats are needed for this conversion to be more efficient. Low fat veganism would cause deficiency in retinol.

Vitamin D: Yes, theoretically vegans can get vitamin D, if they go out in the sun, and if they are at lower latitudes. However, CHOLESTEROL is needed to form vitamin D, CHOLEcalciferol.

Zinc and copper: Plants are a poor source of zinc and are often high in copper. High copper levels cause adrenal stress.

EPA/DHA omega 3: It does not exist in any appreciable amounts in plants. Human conversion is weak (5% ish) and is especially weak for those that have ancestors that consistently have eaten fish.

Minerals in general: They are not as bioavailable in plants.

Vitamin B12: There is no reliable food sources of B12 for vegans.

Problem with fat soluble vitamins A D E K: There are many vegans who have a low fat diet which make these deficiencies even worse.

Meats are the only reliable source of important amino acid derivatives like Taurine, Carnitine, and Creatine
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 05:58:05 am by CHK91 »
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2011, 05:48:01 am »
 
I am still waiting for your explanations on the above.

We don't even have to hunt and kill to eat meat. There are roadkills  ;D
I'm kidding but there are other circumstances in nature in which human have been able to access meat without killing, such as leftovers from predators or chasing a predator to steal its prey.

That said, humans are omnivores and I doubt very much they ever ate exclusively meat, and certainly not exclusively meat from large mammals.

Look at how much we achieved in terms of inventions and technologies in the last 150 years, CHK91. Our intelligence is definitely increasing.

Don’t confuse intelligence with knowledge. The last is increasing because it accumulates by written communication between generations and improving circulation of information. Intelligence is not increasing.  
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline CHK91

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2011, 05:50:41 am »
Look at how much we achieved in terms of inventions and technologies in the last 150 years, CHK91. Our intelligence is definitely increasing.


Inventions and technologies come from accumulation of knowledge. An accumulation of knowledge does not automatically mean increased intelligence. A greater library of knowledge enables the formation of more scientific questions. More scientific questions mean more experiments leading to more knowledge. And so on...
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2011, 06:11:52 am »
I knew a man that claimed he could run down deer by tracking them through the woods and chasing them and after a couple of hours the deer would would be so exhausted he could walk up close and  take them out easily with a bow and arrow. He was in his 60s when I met him and he was still strong as hell. He claims he built up his strength by milking cows by hand, and other basic farm work as a child. He also had an IQ of 160 and possessed a number of superhuman skills. But chasing down animals on foot seems a feat in itself.
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Offline yon yonson

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2011, 06:12:13 am »
Look at how much we achieved in terms of inventions and technologies in the last 150 years, CHK91. Our intelligence is definitely increasing.


sir, you are incorrect. technology does not equal intelligence. can't you see this technology is killing the planet? far from intelligent in my opinion

Offline Stancel

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2011, 06:23:33 am »
There is a whole other category of animals called scavengers. Hominids like Australopithecus probably starting eating large animals as left-overs from other animals' hunting. Maybe tool use developed when we needed to extract the brains and marrow from bones. then later humans became hunters.

Offline ezekiel

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2011, 06:31:56 am »
This guy is not raw paleo but he needs his beef!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkg5Sx-o1m8

I am an athlete. i don't do well without red meat. I feel best with red meat, I will eat it even if only cooked is availible.

Offline ezekiel

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2011, 06:39:09 am »
sir, you are incorrect. technology does not equal intelligence. can't you see this technology is killing the planet? far from intelligent in my opinion
Exactly.

Offline ezekiel

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2011, 06:39:44 am »
Change this to "Fads vs Natural Diet"

Durianrider mentions a vegan by the name of Mac Danzig an mma fighter. He is not even a raw vegan (cooked), and he eats nuts avocados etc.


Offline sabertooth

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2011, 06:40:49 am »
I do want to believe you, but what's the science behind that? The evidence they give is actually convincing and true to the best of my knowledge. 

There is no real double blind scientific research on what raw paleo dieters are doing. I can tell you that there is an adaption that took place in myself which allows me to thrive off of two pounds of red meat and half a pound of raw fat each day. I also eat high meat which seems to prime the gut for optimal meat digestion. Any pro vegan study out there, I can tell you, will not include subjects like myself who are already adapted to a carnivorous diet, so they can claim to be right about meat not digesting as well in the average grain eatting Joe. But I am a different animal, especially after eatting high meat; my mouth salivates with enzyme rich digestive juices and I can feel the ease at which my gut can handle over a pound and a half of raw flesh in one sitting.

 I have had no issues with digesting meats, while If I eat vegtables I will get bloated and feel terrible. Once I became adapted to meat then I lost the ability to handle vegges, Its a trade off I was willing to make. Some people can adapt to large amounts of raw meat and still digest vegtables just fine, but I cant.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw Vegan vs Paleo
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2011, 07:07:18 am »
The various arguments can be easily debunked. First of all, the notion that we have become more intelligent. Only during the meat-eating days of the palaeolithic era, is that true. In the last 35,000-10,000 years our brains decreased in volume by 3 percent(when its theorised we started eating fewer animal foods), and in the last 10,000 years, our brains decreased in volume by  a further 8 percent, once the Neolithic diet came in with all its huge amounts of extra grains and starches etc. The decrease in brain-size does not automatically correlate with decreased IQ, but there is a further factor, namely natural selection, which would have been more present in palaeo times, but which disappeared as a factor once settled civilisation came to pass. So, it is reasonably certain that Intelligence dropped when the Neolithic era came about.

The claim re stronger  stomach acid than humans in carnivores is, of course, meaningless, as humans have a longer digestive tract/gut/intestine to compensate for that.The notion re humans taking ages to hunt is also ridiculous, as there is the scavenger theory which shows that ancient humans at least did some scavenging of prey after other predator species had had their fill; but also, there are very famous palaeolithic sites, such as at Solutre in France, where it was proven that Cro-Magnon hunters would force entire herds of wild horses over the cliffs etc.:-

http://www.oldstoneage.com/montetwhite/solutre.shtml

http://archaeozoo.wordpress.com/2008/04/03/horse-hunting-in-magdalenian-france/

As for no evidence about rawpalaeodiets, that's not quite true. There is a HUGE amount of scientific evidence debunking the notion that cooked foods are healthy(such as studies on the heat-created toxins in cooked foods), a number of studies showing negative effects of non-palaeo foods, and most of the studies done on raw vegan diets have shown serious problems arising from them long-term, such as amennorhea etc.

That reminds me, I ought to do a few  sticky threads here on evidence from palaeo times, and on rawplaeodiet.com. It's a fascinating subject, given things like cave-art(I often find that those "primitive" Cro-Magnon hunters produced paintings of a far greater complexity and brilliance than anything any modern painter has done since the ghastly Impressionism got started, with one or two exceptions like Escher or Vallejo).

« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 07:48:22 am by TylerDurden »
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