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Messages - popeye

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Welcoming Committee / Re: 811 Raw Foodist with doubts...
« on: November 12, 2009, 06:54:40 pm »
Barry Groves is a biased fool and who's been completely discredited on the other forum(rawpaleodiet yahoo group) - if you look at all the hard data online, you'll see that it is EXTREMELY difficult to suggest that we are either 100% carnivores or 100% herbivores- the facts show that we are, actually, omnivores in terms of digestive system/teeth etc etc. .

Incidentally, Barry Groves tried desperately to claim, on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, that all one had to do re health was to eat meat, and that cooking was perfectly fine. Naturally, 1 of the other rawist members called him up on this(not me) and challenged him to try to refute the large amounts of scientific data I'd provided to show that cooked animal food was, indeed, harmful, and the guy was such a coward that he used a pathetic excuse to leave the forum, right then so as to avoid being humiliated in that debate.

Yeah, I'm not saying everything that guy says is right, but I definitely thought that particular page was interesting and at least indicated that humans were not designed to eat a herbivorous diet (although I agree we are not obligate carnivores and are really omnivores who lean towards eating a lot of meat).  I actually have read Barry Groves' latest book, and in it he advises to cook food as little as possible, and he pointed out that our ancestors ate most of their meat raw.  I suppose he just thinks that while raw is the best way to go, cooking meat isn't such a heinous sin.  I dunno.

Hot Topics / Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« on: November 12, 2009, 06:41:43 pm »
Thanks for this.

What health problems do you have? How did you experience them when you were on 811 (how long were you on this?) and how long are you in raw paleo? How were the problems affected during either?

Another question -- how careful are you for santizing plates, materials, your hands, when handling raw meats, foods?

I developed a chronic fatigue problem, which basically includes irritated bowels, difficulty concentrating, anxiety and weakness as the main symptoms.  This was after being on a 75%+ fruit diet for a couple of years.  I never could do 100% because I would get very hungry for other things and could never stomach eating 30 bananas a day to meet my calorie needs.  Some 80/10/10ers have been known to go on mono banana diets for a month to "cleanse" their system.  I have no idea how someone could do something like this.  They must be way more hardcore than me.

I started eating a meat-based diet with regularity about 8 months ago.  I don't eat an all-raw diet by any means, but I don't overcook my food either, preferring most of my meat rare, and I eat a lot of grassfed meat.  My problems have gradually been disappearing during this period.  The past week has been very successful, and I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or the supplement and gland regimen I started around that time.  Check up on my journal from time to time to see how I progress.

As far as sanitation I don't really care and eat raw eggs frequently, forget to wash my hands after handling raw meat, etc.  I really don't think it's a problem.

Hot Topics / Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« on: November 12, 2009, 06:30:06 pm »

lol, I don't mean to be a hater but durianrider is a little much from what I've seen of him.  He says consuming raw meat is an eating disorder; well I guess all our ancestors 50,000 years ago had eating disorders!

Hot Topics / Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« on: November 12, 2009, 06:26:01 pm »
BTW, as far as glycation goes, does that mean it's probably a good idea to not eat fruits too soon after meat or anything high protein?

It's the total amount of consumed carbohydrate per day that matters.  When you eat them isn't important.  You really don't want a lot of glucose circulating in your bloodstream and regardless of it being "high glycemic", "good/bad carbs" or whatever, it's still glucose and it will still glue your proteins together.  Search pubmed or the medical journals for "glycation" and you'll see how much has been written about it.  I am totally amazed the public has no idea what glycation is, but they will tell you any day of the week how bad eggs are for you.  Glycation is the reason why a diabetic's skin typically looks bad and the organs don't function well.  I'm certainly not saying to avoid carbs completely, but from what I've been reading avoiding them as much as you can will do you good.  Read up and see if you agree with me.

In any case, do some experimenting and see what level of carbs or fruit you are comfortable with.  I'm just giving out what I've gathered through my own investigation.  I'm kind of wary of acting in the role of an advice-giver and am much less sure of myself than I was back in my vegetarian days.  So take what I and other people here say in its own context.  Some people here eat a lot of fruit and do fine.  But I think even they will agree that animal fat is crucial re health.

Journals / Re: Lex's Journal
« on: November 12, 2009, 05:15:44 pm »
No clue, and not sure it would do me any good to know if these calcium deposits have an official name as I'm not sure there is anything I could do about it anyway.  What I do have is a baseline CT Scan that can be compared with future scans which might be valuable for noting changes in these deposits (be they phleboliths or arthritis or whatever) as well as changes in the currently identified kidney stones.

I also have to be practical and realistic about what my change in lifestyle can accomplish.  Since I have personally spent more than half my expected lifespan eating food that I now believe is totally unfit for human consumption, is it any wonder that I would have many battle scars throughout my body to prove it.  I'm sure there is much damage that could have been prevented, but now that it is there, can never be fully repaired - regardless of what I do.  I must live with the cards I've pulled from the deck, and must now play out my self dealt hand to the best of my ability.


I totally agree, Lex.  I am amazed at how much better you have become just through dietary change.  That alone is miraculous, even if it hasn't resulted in "perfect health."  I do hope you never have to deal with another kidney stone, though.  I don't even want to think about how unpleasant passing a rock through your urethra is.

Hot Topics / Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« on: November 12, 2009, 04:56:26 pm »
Thanks buddy -- I love your profile pic btw.

I had my first meal of raw beef a moment ago. I feel great so far. The meat guy recommended the thin slices of rib-eye. Can I get the thicker pieces and chew on those as well? This is quite a wild experiment for me, given its rather taboo, particularly with fears rampant about what happens when you eat raw meat. Even the fish guy at the store said only eat salmon and tuna. I think I can go and eat any of them, no?

How about combinations? Should I eat one food at a time. Is that best? For example, raw vegans talk about how gastric fluids specific to the foods your saliva is hitting when it enters the mouth can get confused when different combinations (which require different fluids and enzymes) hit the stomach. Foods that digest quicker ferment as they wait for the ones that take longer to get ready for the next step. This causes indigestion and so on. What is the rule of thumb with raw paleo?

Do you eat pickled ginger with salmon or other raw meats? Wasabi? These types of things to help with digestion or no need? (or perhaps they should be excluded from the diet altogether).

I think from my experience here I will be a big fruit and veg eater while at the same time including a good range of raw meats. At least for this next month that will be the idea. The issue here is that my carb intake will still be fairly high with the high level of fruits. What do you think about that?


You can eat your meat however you want it--sliced thin, big chunks; it doesn't matter at all.  I don't see any reason why you shouldn't eat whatever fish tickles your fancy, either.

As far as combinations go, my experience has been that food combining grew out of the fact that eating a lot of fruit with anything will probably upset your stomach.  I always had difficulty digesting fruit if I ate it with anything else, even other types of fruit.  My digestive system improved dramatically when I cut down on the fruit and started eating a lot of animal fat.

Yes, I eat wasabi and pickled ginger with my sashimi when I go out to sushi bars and the like.  That's one of my favorite dishes.  If you like that stuff, eat it.  I have no reason to think it's dangerous.  I know the 80/10/10 movement decries spices and condiments as some kind of toxic agitators but if they don't bother you then don't worry about it.  It makes no sense to worry about minutia like spices while eating loads of fructose and glucose, which rapidly accelerate the aging process and are highly toxic to the body.  Forget fat and cholesterol being the cause of disease--the process of glycation is the real problem and is something everyone should read up on.  Glycation is the reason I keep my carb intake as low as I do.

My view is that cutting down on the fruit is the way to go.  But I wouldn't do it too quickly.  Dropping carbs drastically can lead to side effects as your body starts turning to fat for fuel.  You have to decide what to do in that regard.  My opinion is that low carb diets start becoming effective when you drop carbohydrate intake below 25% of total calories.  That means if you eat 2500 calories in one day then you can eat about 150 grams of carbs.  I personally eat about 80 grams of carbohydrate per day.  I've found that level of carb to be sustainable in that it's not so restrictive that I start missing sweet foods, but the intake is low enough that I believe I get just about the same benefits as if I ate no carbs at all.  I can't tell you if there's really a difference between 0 and 60 grams of carbohydrate a day, but if you can't stick with 0 then you shouldn't do it.  Do what you can live with for life; that's my opinion.

Hope that helps.

Edit: Also, keep and mind that I don't have any answers, just suggestions from my life.  I still have health problems myself that I'm trying to resolve.  let's all learn from each other!

Hot Topics / Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« on: November 12, 2009, 04:07:58 pm »
I just want to add that I found this quote particularly funny:

"It's also my experience that the most vociferous supporters of this diet [raw paleo] tend to be unpleasant and aggressive."

I find that ironic because I have never met a greater concentration of zealots and closed minded individuals than in some of the raw vegan groups I've been part of.

Hot Topics / Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« on: November 12, 2009, 04:01:48 pm »

My own experience, as well as my research into the science, disagrees with the notion that high fat, low carb diets are in any way dangerous.  I have lived both diets and I know firsthand which one works and which one gave me loads of health problems.  I see a lot of claims and anecdotes in that link ("I know a guy who eats raw meat and has cavities", "my friend was on the primal diet and died" etc), but no real hard evidence to speak of, and besides, we all must go on our own experience.  Eating a fruit diet gave me cavities, and I haven't developed any cavities eating a low carb diet.  People such as Lex have solved tooth and bone problems, and many serious health problems in general, eating nothing but meat.  Does that mean you should eat nothing but meat, too?  No, all I'm saying is that personal experience is king, and no amount of zealot drum banging and arm flailing should change the fact that something either works for you or it doesn't.

There are a lot of gurus and followers on the internet who refuse to look at anything that disrupts their worldview.  For any diet, or any way of life for that matter, you will always find people who tell you what you are doing is wrong.  I say just do what works and screw everything else.

Welcoming Committee / Re: 811 Raw Foodist with doubts...
« on: November 12, 2009, 12:10:19 pm »
Hi guys,

I've been on 811 low-fat-high-carb raw vegan for a month and dropped the ball today because the craving to eat meat (or whatever the underlying reason for the craving was...perhaps fat or higher levels of protein) was too strong.

I'm having doubts. Perhaps feeling good came from not eating grains, perhaps it was not eating gluten in specific. Perhaps it was not eating cooked foods as well.

Anyway, I want these dark circles to go away, to regain some strength (I've become really skinny this past month), and get to health.

One question I have is on eating raw meat. Is the idea for the most part that 'raw' paleo is the best way to go? And, also, I just got out of the hospital a few days ago from the worst case of food poisoning I have ever experienced (I idiotically ate some unrefigerated spinach) and I'm worried about eating raw meat. The internet is covered with warnings about not eating raw meat. If I do eat it, what's the way to go to not get food poisoned? From a butcher or can I still get it from a decent supermarket?

Help me get straight on this guys. ;)

Appreciate it,

P.S. is soymilk and soy protein powder okay?

Personal experience here.  I was big time into the 80/10/10 diet after reading Doug Graham's book a few years ago, and was sure it was the next logical step for me to take in terms of health  (I had already been a near-vegetarian for the previous few years).  I have to admit that there is a certain logic to natural hygiene and for a while I was convinced that we were meant to live on mostly fruit as a species.  Of course, I have very different opinions now, but there you go.  To cut a long story short my experience has been that low fat, fruit-based diets are extremely dangerous and should be avoided at all cost.  I felt pretty good for a while and often had enough energy to run wild, but it was a manic sort of energy, and I eventually crashed hard and gave myself all kids of health problems.  I really don't want you or anyone else to make the same mistake I did.  If you notice a fruitarian or any other sort of diet is not sustainable, makes no sense to you, or is advocated by zealots who won't listen to alternative points of view, run in the other direction as fast as you can.  I think you are very smart to have doubts about the diet.  Keep an open mind about these things.

As an alternative to the ideas presented in the 80/10/10 book that humans are natural frugivores, I invite you to read the following by Dr. Barry Groves, which compares our physiology and digestive tract to herbivores and carnivores.  I think you will find it interesting:

Off Topic / Re: Health Care US
« on: November 10, 2009, 12:24:37 am »
Man don't rub it in.

Journals / Re: popeye's journal
« on: November 09, 2009, 10:22:38 pm »
Anything's possible. I've, in the past had almost instant benefits from eating some raw foods like raw oysters, for example.

Well, I took some more thyroid and adrenals, and am experiencing a resurgence of the effect.  I've taken them 3 times and a few hours after each I notice at least subtle subjective improvement.  This seems to be amplified by waiting long stretches between meals.  Perhaps something in the glands is stimulating something in my own glandular system.  If anything I'm closer to hyperthyroid than hypothyroid, but I would think eating glands would help with a diseased gland or organ in general, whether it is over or under functioning.

Info / News Items / Announcements / Re: Another disturbing story
« on: November 09, 2009, 09:53:38 pm »
Maybe the Food and Disease Administration should leave the oysters alone and if any thing do something about 98% of the food you see at the local market.

Journals / Re: popeye's journal
« on: November 09, 2009, 03:39:32 pm »
Wow, I don't know if this is a coincidence or what, but I got the thyroid extract and have been taking it for a couple of days along with adrenal cortex and my energy and concentration are significantly better.  I had a thyroid and adrenal blood panel right before I started taking either, and when I get it I will post.  If this is due to hypothyroidism I would expect to see some kind of abnormal reading.

By the way, does anyone think it's at all likely that one could receive subjective benefit from eating raw glands after only a day or two that is not placebo?

Journals / Re: popeye's journal
« on: November 09, 2009, 11:34:46 am »
Here's the thyroid panel and cortisol test.  Everything appears typical as far as I can tell.  TSH is on the low end so that means the pituitary gland is not attempting to stimulate additional thyroid hormones.  This was before I had started taking thyroid extract, but after I had started adrenal extract.  I discontinued the extract for a few days before I had the test done, so it wouldn't fudge the results.

General Discussion / Re: Testicles
« on: November 09, 2009, 01:57:06 am »
No, it would definitely be under something called ""

General Discussion / Re: Link between AA in SF and inflammation?
« on: November 08, 2009, 05:21:15 pm »
What is AA and what is SF?

arachidonic acid / saturated fat

Welcoming Committee / Re: hola
« on: November 08, 2009, 11:35:03 am »
I don't understand your answer, Tyler. Let me try rephrasing the question: by about when should this inevitable increase in intolerance of raw fruit occur for me? What's the latest that it would occur? I was actually hoping that as my body healed I would be able to better handle eating some raw fruit like berries in the future, but it sounds like you're saying that the opposite will happen. Bummer.

Each time I reduced my carb intake, even from raw fruits, I experienced health improvements, even though I was still eating significant carbs. So my problems with all plant carbs, including fruits (I haven't noticed any obvious symptoms from limited amounts of some raw veggies like spring greens and broccoli, but their carb content is pretty negligible), were occurring before I went ZC. I was hoping that after a certain amount of time giving my body a break from carbs I might be able to reintroduce small amounts of berries and such without re-triggering symptoms.

My experience has been that eating a lot of animal fat strengthens my digestive system and lets me cope with other foods, when I do eat them.

General Discussion / Re: Link between AA in SF and inflammation?
« on: November 08, 2009, 11:26:46 am »
Can't find it, but just reading up on it on allows me to comment.  It's an omega-6 fat, which means it is pro inflammatory if and only if it is out of balance with other fats.  It is actually an important fat, being an essential fatty acid, and is a precursor not only to inflammatory prostaglandins but also to prostaglandins that help control inflammation.  So eat that red meat; eat those eggs!

General Discussion / Re: Link between AA in SF and inflammation?
« on: November 08, 2009, 11:18:50 am »
I remember reading something that indicated that this whole thing about arachidonic acid promoting inflammation was bogus.  Let me see if I can find it.

Journals / Re: Yuri recovery
« on: November 08, 2009, 09:21:07 am »

I gathered my energies and got to the computer.

Yes I have been through a very traumatic ZC experience. Back then I was eating ZC which was also high in purines (raw thyroid, organ meats etc.). The only difference I made this time was to lower the purine load by excluding or severely limiting organ meats. But that didn’t calm my mind completely and the prospect of redeveloping kidney stones remained my primary concern. So naturally I got myself all hot and bothered about getting my kidneys tested and checked. I have ultrasound scan of the kidneys and bladder on November 25. I did basic urine test and blood biochemistry analysis. I will have the results soon.

I wish I knew the exact diet which could regenerate me. It would have been so simple to just follow it. It’s true that the Primal Diet was massively healing for me. But I was so much stronger back then. And NOTHING has worked after my intermittent fasting fiasco. I have never been the same again.

I am always open to a friendly word of advice. This is the main reason why I’m posting here. I want get to the heart of the matter.

The human endocrine system is sort of a control-freak. And like all other control-freaks, it has to be managed or it can wreck the whole life. Endocrine system is a committee of glands and organs that regulate an extraordinary number of bodily functions by squirting chemical messengers into the bloodstream. These chemical hormones travel around the body giving orders. They secretly tell the body parts what to do – without the body even knowing about it.

The word "hormone" means to "urge on" or to "excite" – and that's exactly what they do. They cause things to happen that have an impact on how one feels. For example, hormones determine how a person handles stress, how they react to an emergency and the moods that affect them. And to top it off, they decide whether you feel hungry or full, how you use the food you eat and whether or not you're fat or thin. Talk about a control-freak!

In a nutshell the endocrine system is the Holy Grail of health. By its nature a Holy Grail problem is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to solve.

I have to call up my remaining strength not to give up...

Yuri, after reading your journal I am struck by how similar your story sounds to mine.  I too went through a period of vegetarianism that culminated in a miserable two years of attempted raw veganism.  A lot of your symptoms sound identical to mine, particularly the chronic fatigue, depression and anxiety, cold hands and feet, and low motivation.  I am still trying to resolve all my symptoms, but have been making progress.  Should I find a regimen that reverses my condition I will describe it in full so other people may be able to benefit.  I certainly empathize with you and know exactly what it's like to feel helpless and miserable all the time with seemingly no end in sight.

Journals / Re: popeye's journal
« on: November 08, 2009, 08:58:43 am »
It can take a while for the body to adapt to burning fat for fuel, particularly when it has been fed carbohydrates for most of its existence.  I have heard of people taking months to fully adapt.  The best advice is probably to gradually reduce carbs to a level that you are comfortable with, and then you can eat more or less as you wish.  At this point I am not of the opinion that you have to go ridiculously low to get the benefits.

Hot Topics / Re: Homo diet
« on: November 07, 2009, 06:41:00 pm »
I'm simply stating the obvious, that no one human is 100% right, and that no one human is 100% wrong. In the case of gurus, whether they are Sally Fallon or Gary Taubes or Aajonus Vonderplanitz, they all have a specific axe to grind and their own agenda re profits or politics, so , inevitably they are going to have major faults in their reasoning and massive flaws in their data etc, so that they are all fraudulent in some way or other. It's just that Gary Taubes has more flaws than most. Which is why I'm going to do a high-grade slash 'n'burn review of him, sooner or later.

If I've learned one thing on the Internet it's to take gurus with a grain of salt, and just go with what works for you.  I got into raw veganism due to zealously listening to a particular guru, and it nearly did me in.

Health / Re: quickly getting rid of flu
« on: November 07, 2009, 06:35:12 pm »
Yes, getting rid of the symptoms is a bad idea

I totally agree.  I'm now of the opinion that symptoms are produced by the body for a reason, and interfering with them is generally unwise.  If anything they should be helped along, and certainly not suppressed.  The flu virus doesn't give you a fever; the body does.  For a few years now I've avoided using painkillers or over the counter drugs for any ailment I've had.  People think I'm weird but whatever.  :)

Welcoming Committee / Re: hola
« on: November 07, 2009, 06:29:38 pm »
For my carbs, I go in for raw fruit, mostly berries like blueberries/raspberries but other fruit as well(but don't do as well on tropical fruit). I also go in for raw heather honeycomb(rarely), some raw vegetables(raw carrots once a year, radishes once a month or so, lots of seaweed I eat along with the raw mussels I get).

By the way, I should warn you that if you go too much VLC, you'll inevitably start finding that you get food-intolerances towards even raw fruit. This is not because raw fruit is harmful, it's simply because carbs like fruit require different bacteria from raw meats to get digested so that if you don't supply the digestive system with sufficient carbs for those bacteria to thrive on, the bacteria die out and you then start getting indigestion from eating raw fruit, also there's a change in production of enzymes which complicates matters. The same sort of thing happens to people who've been 100%  raw vegan for long lengths of time and who then sudden;y start eating raw animal foods.

Lol, don't even get me started on the wreckage of my digestive system I wrought through eating vegan/rawvegan.

Journals / Re: popeye's journal
« on: November 07, 2009, 06:17:46 pm »
The trouble is that craig, a ZCer, did once suggest that adrenal-related issues might become a problem on ZC, as ZC might over-stress the glands.

I wonder what the threshold for carbohydrate intake is, that is high enough to avoid the problems associated with a totally zero carb diet, while not being so high that you lose the benefits of a low carb diet.  From what I've read, having 10-15% of calories from carbs (maybe 60-80 grams a day) is what people who write about low carb diets typically suggest.  Maybe more or less depending on the individual.  Anything under 100 grams is still a pretty low carb diet.

Edit: speaking of which, I know that you have had trouble with ZC yourself.  How many grams of CHO do you reckon you consume per day, on average?  Thanks.

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