Years ago, I became interested in raw eating. My background
was vegetarian. Not once when I was growing up did my mother
ever serve meat.
I am always one to "Take the bull by the tail and look the facts
in the face" to quote WC Fields, so I joined this forum. Never could
get my mind around the eating raw meat. Mostly the disease and parasites.
I guess I know too much... 
I hadn't given it a thought for at least 6 years. I have drifted away from eating
raw, but its always in the back of my mind to get back. I checked to
see if my old login still worked. Son of a gun!

What brought me here was something kind of off the wall.  I checked out
wht was happening with Bigfoot. With cameras everywhere, there should
be proof, right?  It turns out yes and no. They are as illusive as ever. They seem
to understand our cameras to some extent and mostly avoid them. Hoaxers
are rampant too.
HOWEVER, there are a number of people who are studying them and have
found more than tracks. There is now DNA for example.

To keep the story short, these are the quintessential raw paleo hominids.
There is plenty of evidence for their deer hunting etc.  They are good hunters,
ambushing game and running down deer etc.  Most of the researchers are a
bit flipped by the idea of them not cooking. Makes them kind of more animal. 
Apparently, they eat fruit, berries, bugs, leaves and bark. They have a liking for
corn on the cob. I haven't heard if the shuck it or eat it leaves and all!
Overall, they seem to get much of their calories from meat. Some deer kills
have only the organs eaten. They break bones for the marrow. They are
ideological; won't turn down a  PBJ, for example.

I may come back and start a thread on the topic when I get a chance. I'll
see if I can link some pics etc relevant to "our thing".

Here's a Google Machine Translation. Sort of readable...

Wai Genriiu What can you do to eat healthy and environmentally friendly way?

Wai Genriiu: Foods that are not environmentally friendly are also not good for our bodies. We need the people who really only provide information on the impact which the current diet on themselves and their health - the human being is selfish enough that it actually results in a change should be.

There are a variety of lessons about healthy eating. Most of them contradict each other in one form or another. What advice would you give to a beginner, trying to switch his diet?

Wai Genriiu: If you want to know what is good for you, then try out any nutrition. Listen attentively to what your body tells you. Write down any impact of this special diet: How do you feel? What characteristics does your chair(stool! hah!)? How is your skin? What effect does the food on your energy? How does that feel your stomach? How do you sleep? What is your mood?

What do you see the basic elements of a healthy diet?

Wai Genriiu: A sufficient quantity of all essential nutrients. As little as possible carcinogens, enzyme inhibitors and other harmful substances. Easily digestible food. Food that leaves a feeling of wellbeing.

What is your professional background and where your motivation was to do research on nutrition?

Wai Genriiu: I worked for many years as a professional model. When I finished with the modeling, I moved to another country, changed my diet - and suddenly got acne. I met my current boyfriend, who also suffered from acne, and together we began to deal with biochemistry, to explore the connection between diet and acne. During our research we discovered a lot of material that was so important that we almost had to publish online.

What feedback have you received from the readers of your website?

Wai Genriiu: Many people thank us for information, which we shall make available, and quite detailed questions will be answered. The most rewarding feedback we get from people who have suffered from very severe acne and can now - thanks to lead our proposed nutrition - back to a normal life without acne.

They propose far-reaching, albeit absolutely "delicious" changes in the diet before. How to ease the transitional phase?

Wai Genriiu: are apart from the food that is part of the recommended diet, you can also take food that actually rather than "poorly classified" is. One should not choose such that it contains less harmful substances as possible, while the most satisfactory. I call this "Munch Food." These foods to satisfy the longing, the emotional aspect of eating, and help to maintain the otherwise strict diet.

"Shellfish/seaweed is another issue. Some people claim that shellfish was only initially consumed in relatively recent times(20,000 years ago), others claim 300,000 years ago or more. But, regardless, shellfish would only be relevant to those tribes right next to  coastal areas."
 
 Actually,  the lack of sea coast evidence in human history has to do with the fact that the oceans were up to 300 feet lower during the Ice ages.  Most of the evidence for the paleolithic lies  under water.

One of the earliest civilizations occurred in South America when the people discovered how to make nets of wild cotton. The resulting efficiency led to a highly developed culture.

Shellfish is so easy to gather that is would be absurd to assume that it wouldn't have been incorporated into diets very early. Merely copying other predators would have taught humans how to eat shellfish.

Many claims about what people did or didn't eat have little basis in fact. The lack of cited evidence doesn't mean  it didn't happen. 

TruthHunter

People used to put a silver dollar in their milk jugs to prevent spoilage. I guess the effect is similar to colloidal silver.  I wonder if you could make raw milk safer than pasteurized milk by processing it through a high surface area silver coated system. I suspect the effect is not so much from dissolving silver as from contact between the silver and the bacteria. If so, negligible  amounts of silver would be added to the milk and a milk product could be safe without being pasteurized.  Or silver plated reusable containers could be used. It is possible that raw milk could be done that would keep longer than pasteurized milk.

The preliminary testing should be quite simple. Get some pure silver wire  and make a pump  through sieve to process the milk.  Process it for different lengths of time, then see how long it takes to spoil.  Also, perhaps more important would be some highly precise testing to determine how much silver turns up in the milk.  I  doubt you would see enough to cause Argyria even in a lifetime of use, but this could be a limiting factor.

Before marketing, more extensive testing would naturally have to be done, for example with specific pathogens, but it wouldn't be too expensive to do the proof of concept testing before seeking funding. 

Colloidal silver is extremely broad spectrum, so I suspect it would be effective.  Harmful bacteria are selectively killed because they are positively charged on their outer membranes. Silver kills them without effecting the body. For this reason, beneficial bacteria might not be effected the same way.

 I would prefer milk to be unprocessed in  any way, but think it would be wonderful to trump the asshole zealots who want to heat everything and provide a milk to the general public that would be even safer than pasteurized and RAW!

TruthHunter

Just because some of us 'act' as if we are obligate carnivores for short periods does not mean we believe we are obligate carnivores, I've got no idea where you got this.

Some people report eating 100% meat for long periods...and talk as if plant material was harming them.

What do you eat exactly and I want percentages! cooked or uncooked? 

 which way do you swing, carnivore or vegy? or are blindly following 100% omnivore diet?!

Andrew

I have eaten 90 - 95% raw for the last year. I  tried 100% raw Vegan 35 years ago, for 6 months, and gave it up. You never see cooked food the same after that.
 Other than raw eggs, I haven't eaten animal products. I  have thought about it and am still thinking about it.  When I eat cooked food it is always socially related. There are no cooked foods I crave.  I find I retain up to 4 lbs of water  if I eat a significant amount of cooked food.  Lately, I have been eating 100% and feel better. I have eaten a lot of raw pineapple lately and it has trimmed my weight  some more. I am too light now - down 28 lbs from when I started high raw.  My strength is good so I don't think I've lost as much lean body mass as my scales claim.  I am looking at changes to  build my weight up some.

As for for "blindly following 100% omnivore", if you mean checking Blood Glucose, I haven't done that.  I know that I didn't tolerate low carb well when I tried it.  I am seriously allergic  to  red meats, so I am limited in what I could eat anyway.  I am not completely blind as to how my body responds. I am at this site,  because I am considering RAF. I am well aware of my personal prejudices and where they come from.  So, I don't think I'm blind.

John

Chicken doesn't age well.

I remember when I lived in Morocco, we'd go down the street, pick out a chicken, watch it lose it's head, then go through the plucker. It was still warm when we took it home.  I never thought of eating it raw. After that I realized people it the developed world don't know what fresh chicken tastes like.  Don't assume chicken tastes bad until you've had it fresh.

John

BG actually rose a bit after my jog this morning and I feel that this supports my idea that I'm releasing stored body fat to obtain the fatty acids and the left over glycerol molecule is being converted to glucose by the liver as when I'm exercising there is no surplus of free fatty acids around to create a new triglyceride as the FFAs are being used by the muscles for fuel. (see yesterday's long winded post for details of what I believe is happening).

BG range today was again from the high 80s to the mid 90s.  Another sign that I'm not really using much of it.  When I first started jogging a week ago my BG would plummet during the jog and be in the low to mid 60s for several hours after the jog.  Now it starts in the low 80s and rises after the exercise.  This is a completely new BG response and it will be interesting to see if it changes again as this adventure continues.

 

Lex

I would guess that the spike in BG at this point was because of a rise in cortisol hormone. The abrupt change in activity was stressful.  You were doing the exercise in the morning when CH is highest and the adrenals are most responsive.  This is why exercise induced euphoria is more common for morning exercise. The rise in CH may have contributed to the 80 to 90 sustained level. CH usually promotes catabolism of protein, so I suspect that this would tend to reduce muscle mass. Which did happen early after the change.

 Thanks for this thread.  You've used readily available tests to shed a lot of light on what is happening. Keep it up. When I first read of your change it seemed extreme. Perhaps you had gone too low on protein.  Now it appears that you are moving in the right directions.  From what I remember, except under extreme stress, only about 20 to 30 gm of protein are actually needed for maintenance.The rest is converted to glucose or otherwise broken down(some amino acids may not be converted?)   40% of 90 -  100 grams is still higher than this, so you probably haven't cut protein too far.

One suggestion I have to offer, for any one doing this kind of personal testing. Perhaps you could add this even at this late date.  When you record the data, do a hand squeeze on a bathroom scale to measure grip strength. This will give a rough measure of muscular development/overall strength.

Protein isn't the only thing to consider.  Does the increased percentage of fat, mean less nutrients? Perhaps you should make more of the remainder organ meats.

Thanks - Keep up the good work.

John

Re climate/diet:- This is irrelevant.

Not really, it has a tremendous impact of the availability of foodstuffs. It forces either storage or switching to year round sources.  Grains can be stored. Milk tends to be seasonable in primitive conditions, but cheese and butter are readily stored.  I tasted some interesting aged butters in  Morocco. They were reminiscent  of aged cheeses

Re dairy:- (Non-human) Dairy, raw or otherwise, was only introduced to humans c.9,000 years ago(and then only to a small portion of humanity in the Near-East). Very large populations, nowadays, such as in East Asia, have only consumed dairy within the last 3 generations. In short,  9,000 years (or less) is nowhere near enough to get used to milk from other animals - plus, milk from other animals is a specially-designed ideal food(milk from cows is designed, via growth-hormones,  to make calves grow to full adult cattle-size within 2 years - humans, however, don't have to grow to adult-size within 2 years!).

You are making assumptions about the rate of evolution of traits. If maintaining milk digesting enzymes into adult life provides survival advantages, it wouldn't take anywhere near 360 generations  for the majority of a population to possess it in say the steppes of central asia.

 

Re parasites:- This has been extensively discussed on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group. It's been pointed out that some parasites are actually beneficial(ie symbionts). There was a study by Joel Weinstock, for example, which showed that ingesting certain worms reduced the symptoms of IBS(Irritable Bowel Syndrome). Indeed, the absence of parasites and bacteria has led to a major increase in auto-immune disorders and allergies etc. - just look up the numerous online references to the "Hygiene Hypothesis" theory.

I know. I've heard it before. I don't trust true believers no matter how appealing the idea. I've read plenty of negative reactions too.

Re negative reactions:- Actually, negative reactions to raw animal food diets are pretty rare.

perhaps, but I find that most people who don't do well on any particular program just go away.

 Re spirituality etc.:- There's some truth in the placebo effect or spiritual strength or whatever. But, it doesn't explain the remarkable success of RAFers, in general.

Its interesting to me how peoples' background affects their openness to any particular diet. People that are heavily influenced by Hinduism(even unconsciously) tend to vegetarianism for example.

Re colloidal silver etc.:-  Unsurprisingly, since raw animal food is viewed with utter horror by people in most developed nations, most RAFers tend to try every possible diet or health-recovery-method before they even contemplate turning to raw animal foods. Colloidal silver has been mentioned before by other RAFers, among many other methods. But, overall, most RAFers point out that those other methods either don't work or are much less effective than raw animal foods.


I read some of the journals and people reported problems that sounded like they could be the result of infections. If it is, either herbs, or something with an antibiotic effect could be diagnostic. Is it primarily an infective process or just cleansing? 




Isn't veganism an ideology?  A raw vegan diet may be fine short term for some people, but long term it will cause deficiencies in vitamins B-6, B-12, D, A, and perhaps others.  EFAs and protein are difficult to come by on a raw vegan diet.  Even raw vegan author Shazzie has come forward stating that children are failing to thrive on the diet.  She advocates supplements, but isn't that artificial?  If the diet can't provide the proper nutrients, then it is not a proper diet for people.  It is nothing more than an ideology.  I say this as a former vegan, both raw and cooked.


Yes veganism is an ideology, but so is RAF.  Shazzie redily admits that Veganism isn't natural.
 
I will lry to move discussion to other locations besides the introduction

John

Hello everyone:

I am very interested in this topic, though I have different prejudices than most people here. I was raised as a vegetarian and have many friends who are vegan.  My philosophical world view is different than most RAF eaters. 
My interest in RAF/RVAF comes mostly from what I have learned about vitamin B12.  My own mother was a cooked Vegan  for many years. She did fine on this diet until her early 80's.  Too late I realized that her mental deterioration was the result of B12 deficiency. I mixed some B12 with DMSO and applied it to the back of her hand. She immediately responded, but the damage was done.  The research I found indicated the 80% of Vegans are deficient in B12.
I have another friend who is mostly vegan. She drinks soy milk, eats almost no eggs or meat and very little cheese.  Her B12 levels are near the maximum.  I guess she is part of the 20 %!
What gives?
Interestingly enough, 40% of cooked food meat eaters are  also deficient.

I first tried Raw foods in my early 20's then gave it up because of the social aspects. Over the years since, I have eaten mostly the SAD diet, though I tended toward vegetarianism and ate more raw foods than most.  Raw meat though??! I was raised with almost a phobia about than! Not even a rare steak! 
When I was on 100% raw, I remember losing all excess body fat and having my already excellent eyesight improve. I had some periods of euphoria, but  mostly returned to normal baseline energy. I concluded that psychological factors were more important than
physical health.  I decided that I would go back on raw foods if I ever developed a incurable chronic condition!

Last year I decided that the condition had been met.  The incurable chronic condition was aging.  I dropped 4 inches from my waist and from 182 to 159, much of it during the 1st month. More of it was muscle than I would like. For the most part I look better and feel better than last year. Many of the problems I have had are due to the occasional cooked food I eat.
I didn't want to become a crank or an obsessive so I decided that I would NOT eat 100%, and would not beat myself up over occasional cooked food. I don't have many issues with cravings and eat cooked food mostly in social situations.  I find that I don't enjoy most cooked  foods anymore.  It has no taste.
I eat mostly vegan, but include some raw eggs.  I find that I get gas if I eat more than about 3 eggs at a time or combine them with other things.
My brother told me about Aajonus, and I was a bit scandalized. I believe  one of the worst traits is choosing ideology over truth and living according to permanent hidden prejudices.  I had to find out more about such things.
I couldn't ignore the Beyondveg.com site either.

I think its obvious that AV is exceptional, but to what extent and why?
 
I decided to join  this forum to so I could ask questions and comment on some of the issues.  I am not sure I will ever add raw meat to my diet.  I am highly allergic to red meat anyway, but I consider the whole discussion very interesting and philosophically pivotal for me.
Lets consider some facts:

1. Humans aren't adapted to be carnivores.We have neither the short digestive system of a lion or wolf, nor the complex system of a ruminant. Our livers don't tolerate the high levels of Carotene that a largely herbaceous diet provides. How much variation  is there? It stands to reason that some people inherit short digestive tracts. If heights vary from 4' to 7', why not digestive tracts from 15' to 30?  Many people don't do well on high meat diets. Likely we were originally  best adapted to the semi-fruitarian diets similar to the Orangutan or the chimpanzee.
 
2. Most of human populations have lived outside of the tropical zones for long time. Survival has favored adaptation to cooking and for many populations milk was the only raw food. An example of this adaptation is lactase enzyme stlil present in many adults.  Through most of history milk products were not heated. As mammals, milk is at least as similar to our intended food as meat of other animals.  If we only drink human milk, should we eat only humans to get the same meat?    Drinking milk is a smaller digression from natural than cooking.
Survival has caused humans to adapt to rather different diets than even a few thousand years ago. The ability to reproduced isn't the same as optimum health. Grains and weapons are important survival tools for the Lemming like hordes.

3. Cooking of meat has to do with taste as much as anything. Most meats are quite bland. Primitive humans are often no better than moderns at selecting food based on taste rather than well being... Like Steffensen's Eskimoes "Ah, cook the fish heads for the little ankle biters!"

4. Among wild carnivores, parasites and disease are an important limiting factor for lifespan.
Of course, predators are most likely to eat the old, weak, or diseased. Particularly for the aged, contagion can be an important factor

 5. Outside of the arctic regions very few peoples have eaten raw meat. If the health benefits were uniformly apparent, it would seem that more people would have advocated it in the past. I suspect that the negative reactions reported by some even on this site, are fairly common.  Of course many of the sanitation methods we have in the modern world weren't available for most of human history.  Still, the issue of disease and meat is significant IMO.

6. Some people seem to do very well with a raw vegan diet, though its probably a minority. Sometimes members of the same family will show different responses.  I suspect that the same is true for RAF diets.
I am not surprised that its the Holy Grail for some, ( And some people seem to thrive on a life of crime!)  . I suspect that people with sympathetic dominance do better.

7. When I examine the sources for my own families' vegetarianism, I find that the vigor of the body was not the primary issue, but Spiritual factors. Things like controlling the passions were emphasized. Aajonus certainly is an animal   I was also taught that all animal products should be cooked to lower the risk of disease. I was taught that the original human diet did not include animal food and this  was the ideal we should strive to get back to. So you see, RAF is quite a philosophical challenge to me. But as QC Fields said, "Its time to take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face!"
 Ones' presuppositions have a lot to do with one's conclusions

8. There is some research indicating that occult infections may be a major factor in cancer. I find it ironic that AV uses raw animal products to cure cancer. I would challenge anyone with health issues after following RAF diet for awhile to assume they have an infection and take colloidal silver, or chlorine dioxide(MMS) or use a zapper or... something to rule out infection as a cause.

I can't help but wonder if on average, more people would be sick eating raw meat than would be healthier.

Can you prove me wrong?

John