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I've got about 30 or so pounds of eye of round roasts and two unopened 36lb buckets of grassfed beef tallow for sale.  I'm asking half their original price- I'm moving and can't hold on to all of this (and don't have the time to make the pemmican I planned to use them for!)

Great deal if you're local.  PM me if you're interested!

Journals / Re: Round 2: From addiction to recovery
« on: May 04, 2010, 09:26:19 am »
Just had a thought about something that might be keeping me struggling. When I first went VLC 20 months ago, I felt really good, better than I had ever felt before. My mind was as sharp as its ever been and I had tons of energy. I remember having a hard time going to sleep because of all the energy I had. I didn't think of this then but my energy did dissipate after a couple months. I think I was so sure that VLC was the answer that I didn't step back to notice that I didn't have the same energy or clarity when I first started.

I was expecting this same kind of euphoria and probably still do to some extent. This first experience really skewed my view of VLC in almost the exact same way that my first cocaine/adderall usage influenced my expectations with future use. My first few experiences with adderall were amazing but the more I took it the less amazing it became. Its important for me to accept the fact that I'll probably never reach that first euphoria that I experienced with VLC.

I've been chasing that same 'high', and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.  While your energy dissipated after a few months, mine went after only a few days; however, I've since had maybe ~15 days where I felt the energy and satisfaction with life again.  Being that I've only been eating animal foods and taking little to no supplementation, it is hard to simply dismiss this feeling.  There are plenty of ZC'ers that report feeling amazing, but there are also many who seem to agree they feel "great" as if only to fit in.  There seems to be some critical nutrient imbalance or deficiency that is causing this, probably one that some are more sensitive/predisposed to than others.

the gripe I have with NG on this is that, although on PD it is possible to maintain a low protein level while maintaining total energy needs through pure animal fats, marrow, or possibly high fat raw dairy, these things are fairly absent from her diet of high vegetation, cooked muscle meat and limited amounts of pasteurized dairy. In a nutshell, I tried to work this out with someone on another board, and its physically impossible to eat a diet within her parameters at such low protein that is NOT severely calorie restricted. As additional nuts/eggs or any other non-pure fat source garner more protein, so I have a hard time taking such low protein recommendations/ceiling from her.

I'm certainly not taking her word as gospel; her book has no shortage of speculation.  That said, I think Phinney's requirements are absolutely ignoring the quality of the protein.  Also, when he notes reduction in V02 max, I wonder if the animal protein doses included critical animal fats that he may have ignored.  I would not be surprised if the fat they gave the subjects was some flavored vegetable-oil concoction with a poor fatty acid/fat soluble vit. profile.  Ex:  I have a hard time imagining Phinney sucessfully feeding SAD cyclists 80%+ of their calories from raw suet, or even butter/cream for that matter.

Nora Gedgaudas writes in her book that around 40-50g of protein is absolutely plenty for most people.  She says 60g is fine for huge athletic individuals under heavy duress (!).  I actually began my protein-limiting experiment at around ~120g, and have now dropped it to about half that.  I'm somewhat worried about the idea that less than 96-120g of protein will hinder performance and cause muscle loss, but something about these protein estimates seems off to me.

I cannot help but think that there is an enormous difference between the types of protein (and thus amino acid makeup) ingested.  Surely a vegan's 120g is the polar opposite in terms of muscular availability compared to an enormous fatty herbivore's flesh (buffalo, mammoth, seal...)  Chicken, fish, and other smaller/ harder to live off of animal proteins probably lay somewhere in the middle as far as quality-to-quantity ratio goes.  This could possibly play a huge role in the "required" amount of protein; likewise, be of importance in possible life-extension benefits from limiting protein.

Certainly this viewpoint isn't alien to those of us who have chosen raw animal foods.  We cannot simply reduce things to nutrient A and nutrient B, and all-encompassing macronutrients.  Perhaps 40g of grass finished beef protein goes further than 300g of soy protein.

William, do you have a link to that original thread?  I can't find it with google.

Nice post - it'd be nice if you started a journal so we could track your progress easier. Also, Yuri has recently had some success with butter as it seems to be one of the easier fats to digest and could be a good choice for those with impaired digestion.

I'm planning on getting grass finished suet when possible, but for now pasteurized Kerrysgold butter is the only fat available that I trust is truly grass fed.  Good to hear it might be more easily digested. 

I've still got 90+ lbs of USWellness tallow laying around, but considering its paleness and gag-inducing taste I'm not sure that I trust it has the nutrients I'm seeking.  I actually picked up some duck lard at a local 'organic' market and it's a gorgeous deep yellow.  Unfortunately it's $10/lb.

Sodium chloride deficiency and potassium chloride deficiency have been connected to HCL deficiency, constipation, and low blood pressure among low carbers. I have low blood pressure, usually have constipation and still have suboptimal digestion, so I'm adding sea salt and kelp to my meals. So far with no noticeable benefit, though.

The body has a remarkable ability to retain sodium.  It seems like the natural order to things is to excrete absolutely minimal amounts of sodium/other minerals in urine and sweat.  Ingesting salt simply upregulates the kidney's disposal of salt (and probably potassium, if you supplement that in great amounts.)  This switch can take some time (IME, weeks +,) so when one suddenly switches to raw meat + fat from SAD you'll experience bouts of low blood sodium.

I'm not sure if nit-picking about certain minerals and vitamins will ever get anyone to the root of their problems - but it could again mask symptoms so it is something worth looking into. I do believe with good absorption of nutrition most of us will be able to handle almost any "natural' diet.

I'm absolutely against "nit-picking" for certain vitamins or minerals.  The logic I'm using is that we absolutely know humans can thrive on plain meat and fat.  The possible problems include:

*That meat, amazingly, is no longer created equally due to ridiculous corn subsidies.  This creates less nutritious meat across the board, but mainly makes the fat nutrients FUBAR.

*That we no longer get nearly as much sun as we would have prior to civilization, clothes, sunscreen, and more ridiculous anti-sun dogma.  Vitamin D.  Fat soluble.

*That our "grass fed" meat is obviously not all created equally either.  Whether due to poor soil/grass or greedy lieing farmers, "grass-fed" is not a standard of quality.  See the widely varying colors of suet and butter.  Deeper yellow-orange fat clearly has greater fat-soluble nutrients.  Vitamin K2, probably more A, D, and E too.  "Arab groups also put a high value on butter, especially deep yellow-orange butter from livestock feeding on green grass in the spring and fall." (

Zinc is needed for HCL production.  A lack of HCL causes a lack of zinc absorption, but so does a lack of K2.  K2 apparently is needed for mineral absorption.  K2 requires A + D to accomplish this.  Sorry for the lack of more technical terminology and references, I'm having a hell of a time finding where I read this; just trying to get my current thoughts out for now.

So what am I getting at?  HCL is obviously tremendously important for protein and mineral digestion and absorption; I propose that the lack of HCL production is due to poor mineral absorption from a lack of fat-soluble vitamins.  Eating excessive amounts of protein may further disrupt things by requiring far greater HCL and fat soluble vitamins; here we see how excess protein is damaging without sufficient accompanying NUTRITIOUS fat.  Supplementing with HCL thus proves to be a temporary bandage, while the real issue will never be resolved without adequate fat soluble vits.

Anyway, that's my best explanation of ZC issues to date.  Until I've got a good reason not to, I'll continue my pastured butter + small protein meals supplemented by HCL and tanning.

I just noticed something about all the younger guys that I talked about earlier in the thread that have problems with VLC/ZC. They all had severe deficiencies with HCL.

Lack of HCL absolutely will cause everything to go haywire, but I and several others have progressed from massive HCL doses with meals to none needed.  While it helped, it didn't seem to "fix" anything, and the huge HCL deficiency soon returned. 

I have to assume this is because of some other nutritional deficiency; maybe a nutrient involved in one of prerequisites for HCL?  Maybe it's a nutrient that, due to it's fat soluble status, will cause much greater difficulties with the lean male carnivorous dieters (who have much lesser fat soluble vit. stores, and burn through them faster)?

So I'm thinking A, D, E, and/or K2.  I've started tanning and consuming pastured fat/butter for D and K2.  I've eaten large amounts of liver in the past and if anything probably have excess vit A.  Vit A also balances with D, so my total lack of sunlight here in the northeast probably means the balance tilts heavily towards A.

I'm obviously not controlling variables here, but I'm more concerned about getting on track and ridding the worrying side effects.  Anyways I'm back to needing absurd amounts of HCL even with 40-50g protein meals, so my hypothesis is that once I'm down to needing no HCL again it will continue production on it's own and everything will work as intended.

I believe this all ties into the cramping/kidney stones many deal with on ZC diets as well, but I'm still exploring the mechanics of that.  The literature on K2 is lacking.

BTW this means I'm basically continuing my lower protein higher fat experiment, since I'm chasing the fat soluble vits and large protein meals are almost impossible for my stomach to handle right now.

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Frothy and bubbly urine
« on: April 29, 2010, 06:53:25 am »
Any thoughts on what this means?  The common explanation online is mild to complete kidney failure leading to whole proteins being excreted.  I assumed this was true, but experienced extremely frothy urine 2 weeks into a fat fast.

I've seen this reported by several on carnivore diets, though it is not exclusive to them...

What more symptoms does excess blood protein give ? Does it make one sensitive to heat or more anxious ? Increased heart rate ?

I'm fairly certain now my experience had nothing to do with excess protein, aside from perhaps the weight gain.  The weight might not have even gone on as fat if I weren't deficient in some nutrient...

Should clarify that it's the lean/low bodyfat ones who seem to have the most trouble adapting.  Normal/overweight young males don't seem to have any greater difficulty adapting than average.

Savage, what exactly are you eating these days (or normally if you're still only eating lean?)  Be interesting to hear your lean/fat amounts

One point, just as an exercise in creating even more bizarre possibilities, that I'd like to mention is that by eating lots of fat you could actually be getting your body to run even more exclusively on carbs. This sounds counterintuitive and I can easily argue against it, but the glyceride molecule in all of the fats that you are eating can be easily converted to carbs and a wide number of sources put this at around 10% of each fat molecule. This would not add up to all that much even if you are eating 300+ grams of fats a day but I think its worth mentioning. If you really want to send your body into ketosis then you should no doubt get there by completely fasting for a week.

But, of more importance, and you ignored this question before, is..

Why not buy strips to measure ketone levels?

You are spending all this money on excess calorie consumption why not spend $10 to measure ketones that could give you some valuable information.

You know I thought about that glycerol point for a bit.  Ultimately if that's going to happen, it'll happen- it just seems kinda absurd to worry about.

I guess I'll go pick up some strips.  I'm just not sure what value they'd I hoping to see evidence of excess ketones?  I'm not really convinced I'm not in ketosis anymore, just that some vital nutrient(s) is preventing me from thriving (and maybe as in the case of HCL deficiency creating all sorts of other deficiencies.)  You can look at the symptoms list for any number of vitamins/mineral or even fat deficiencies and find depression, muscle soreness, lack of energy, etc.

I'm thinking if the fat doesn't fix things up, next week I'll add in more raw beef alongside intense exercise.  I feel like exercise would make a huge difference as far as feeling better energy-wise, since it tells the body to keep the energy production running (vs storage.)  Really the only reason I'm not still working out is the soreness/palpitations/shortness of breath that kinda scare me.

It could also be that some people who are lean on SAD have metabolic problems, which have built up and ended up stopping their bodies from storing/using body-fat.

An obvious possibility; the common gut explanations come to mind (candida, leaky gut, IBS, etc.)  That said I've felt absolutely amazing maybe 20 days (non-consecutive) out of the last 6 months I've been eating ZC.  The first ~3 days were some of those.  It is bizarre and frustrating that I've not been able to consistently thrive on this diet over 6 months, and I'm not the only one.

I wouldn't ever depend on commercial tallow as an energy source. It's possible you could have much more success with raw animal fats or at the very least homemade tallow where you can minimize damage to the fat.
I run counter to this argument. 28 year-old male with, I'd estimate, roughly 8% bodyfat (eyeballing based on where I was at 4% a couple years ago). I'm also moderately to highly active depending on the time of the year. All I eat most days is ~1/2 pound of grass-finished fat a day as well as 1-2 pounds of grass-finished beef chuck. I have maintained a plateau around 170 pounds without muscle mass loss.
I do drink at least a half gallon of water a day, sometimes as much as a gallon, and add a tiny bit of aqueous electrolytes to the water. I upped my water intake a couple months ago and definitely noticed a beneficial effect, most noticeably the disappearance of my hypostatic orthotension. :)

I do need to source some raw grass fed fat.  Been lazy with that.

I certainly wasn't saying all young athletic or lean individuals would fail at the diet; if I was suggesting that, I would have given up already!  What I am stating, however, is that reviewing the ZIOH journals, and experiences here and elsewhere indicate to me that young and lean individuals represent a MUCH greater percentage of those struggling than they do of  those attemping carnivorous diets as a whole.  I can't say I ran numbers for this, but it's been such an obvious paradox that I never felt the need to prove it to myself.

Posted this in response to a suggestion to try more fat:

I have actually been forcing more fat again.  At one point I was consuming about a lb of USWellness's tallow in addition to my daily meal of fatty meat or pemmican.  That soon became 'as much as I could stomach', which soon became under half a pound a day while fat fasting.  USW tallow is unbelievably disgusting; honestly, I've consumed so many gross supplement powders and concoctions that I'm quite used to forcing myself to suck it up.  Their tallow has reached a point with me where no amount of willpower will prevent some sort of gag reflex.

My point is that I switched to pure heavy cream for now, which is palatable enough.  I've started eating between 1-1.5 lbs of 80% ground beef and one pint of cream every night, doubting my excess protein theory.  Starting today I'm kicking that up to 2-3 pints of cream first then 'lean' ground beef.

The only thing I've found to help so far is absolutely ungodly amounts of water.  It does seem like my body is still converting protein to fuel for whatever reason, and it is dehydrating me severely.  I'm drinking 2+ gallons of water a day, and it seems like several of the adverse effects I was experiencing were actually due to dehydration.

The issue with this is that I'm drinking an absurd amount of water and visit the restroom 2+ times an hour.  The possibility of water overdose and electrolyte disturbances are constantly on my mind, but I seem to be doing alright.  The other issue is that, no matter how much I drink during the day, I always become extremely dehydrated during the night.  I crawl out of bed exhausted and feel no relief until a few pints later.

Anyways, my assumption is that it's my body's gluconeogenesis that is causing this extreme dehydration- the kidneys demand large amounts of water to continuously filter out the nitrogen (thus the bubbles, which clear up once I've drank enough in a short enough time period.)  At this point, my new hypothesis is that this is due to a lack of fat prompting my body to rely on gluconeogenesis for the majority of its fuel.

Considering all of the cases of failure to thrive on ZC diets I've read about, it seems a great majority are young, lean to begin with, and male (with a few instances of active athletes fizzling out and giving up).  It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that ~2500 calories from fat alone + protein would not cover my energy needs when totally sedentary.  Perhaps, though, I have some sort of fat 'debt' that needs to be satisfied before my body is comfortable burning fat for fuel.  In light of the younger lean males failing at ZC is does seem a strong possibility that we've all greatly underestimated our bodies needs for fat.

A lack of fat almost seems too simple to be the case, but considering I've availed myself of many symptoms simply by drinking far more water, I think refocusing on the basics is wise enough.


Personally, I've experimented with different combinations of meat, fat and organs, missing days of animal protein altogether, and time and time again, I had the dark shadows and edema of kidney stress (as well as very yellow bubble factory).

Are you saying your kidneys are stressed on the days you are NOT eating protein?  Interesting if so.

I've read that post from BBQ 3 times now...I'm guessing I need some sleep, 'cause it's still not really registering.  Anyways I went from 30+ 650mg HCL pills with no burn to feeling a burn with 1-2, so I have dropped them for a while now. They definitely seemed to help, though. 

Let's go ahead and say it's lack of nutrients from poor digestion that's still causing my issues, then.  Why would I be excreting so much nitrogen in my urine?  Does this mean I'm absorbing absolutely no fat, so my body refuses to produce ketones and instead wastes protein for glucose?  Shouldn't I just use bodily fat stores?  (I am no higher than 7-8% bodyfat, if even, but there's still a bit to be used by my body in an emergency...)  I'll try HCL until burning with my next protein meal later this week and see what happens.

KD, I hope I didn't try and sound like I knew exactly what your bubbles meant. I was speculating and have seen some sites associate bubbles in urine with excess nitrogen or even protein (less likely), so I was merely giving you an idea of what might be happening. It might be something completely different.

I don't think protein in excess would necessarily cause low energy by itself and do not consider this as one of the main reasons why I feel so tired. Protein is slowly converted to glucose (slow enough where insulin can work without overworking the cells of the metabolically challenged) and so people with bad glucose tolerance should easily be able to handle the glucose load. ZC'ers are have extremely stable blood sugar and probably show the best hunger control out of any diet group there is.

I think the problem with low energy has to do with assimilating nutrients properly. One can be very tolerant to glucose, but at the same time have a malfunctioning liver/gall bladder/leaky-gut that is constantly disturbing the body. This is the best idea I can come up with right now that explains my symptoms. I don't think glucose is a problem for me and I might tolerate I high cooked starch diet much better than the one I'm on right now.

From what I understand, for gluconeogenesis to convert protein to glucose it has to drop the nitrogen molecule.  This free nitrogen is hazardous waste and is excreted by the body ASAP- thus the bubbly urine and unbelievable thirst and dehydration referred to in my previous post.  I apologize for my lackluster chemistry.

The reason protein in excess would cause low energy is not because of huge insulin hits ala carb diets.  I agree that the body can easily handle the slow, constant supply of glucose provided via gluconeogenesis.  The issue is that no matter how slow the release, it IS using insulin, and the insulin pathway will absolutely interrupt if not stop ketosis dead in its tracks.

I too used to think my struggles were due to poor absorption; I actually felt great for a period while eating pemmican, which is presumably the easiest way for those with compromised digestive systems to absorb nutrients.  That, however, did not last.  You can even read through delfuego's posts and see a point at which he describes the eventual loss of happiness/joy of life/energy which he fixed by adding large amounts of fat to his pemmican.  I am assuming that he did not simply maintain the same amount of pemmican and add more fat, but rather reduced his 50/50 pemmican amount and added extra fat, thus preventing the accumulation of excess protein. 

I absolutely believe that issues with energy/happiness are due to not actually being in ketosis, due to insulin from excess carbohydrate or protein.


I don't understand how you can automatically equate those things with ketosis and say anyone who doesn't feel that way must be burning glucose. I perhaps looking at the process mechanically and then matching it with those positive symptoms (I.e. burning better fuel = less sleep). I know last spring when I had been doing raw low carb, (although not necessariily VLC) I experienced those things in spades. And did used to feel great on fasts, juice fasts or just plain undereating/restriction, now feel worse. I've eaten next to nothing in 1 week and feel worse. Weight loss has been a bitch for me, but it seems to be consistanly not even getting minimum calories, rather than the ketosis, but the kind of fat burning and loss of appetite would only make me assume more that I am in ketosis, and the ketosis is the problem, not glucose burning or excess protein.

You're right, my hypothesis is only that.  Even if fat fasting until the bubbles fade and limiting protein returns my energy and high-performance I will only have my data point of one.  In my ~6 month experience with ZC I've had about 4 periods of feeling absolutely amazing, better than I've ever felt since I was a kid- except with much greater athletic performance and libido.  

I have not been keeping accurate records of day to day meals and activities, but one of the more recent periods of feeling amazing was following a 3 day fat fast.  I had been trying to improve my digestion, and had worked my way up to ~30 650mg HCL tabs per meal.  I decided to give my stomach a break and see if it would handle HCL production better after a rest.  After 3 days of eating only sticks of butter, I ate about 1/5th a lb of ground beef.  I felt amazing that day, and as I recall had been feeling better and better over the fat fast.  I soon resumed my 1-2lbs of ground beef with butter and felt like shit within a few days.  The obvious idea that comes to mind was that I just needed smaller meals to allow my body better digestion- but I tried keeping meals under .2 lbs to no avail.  This experience to me supports my current idea that it is simply a buildup of protein constantly converting to glucose and preventing ketosis.

This reminds me of another point-  I have been suffering from almost incurable dry-mouth and dehydration.  I cannot even drink enough water during the day to prevent waking in the middle of the night with an unbelievably dry mouth.  I'm assuming this is from the huge amount of water my kidneys are demanding to filter out the protein/nitrogen.  My urine is completely clear, but if I try to drink less the bubbles become even more overwhelming and I suffer from all the symptoms of chronic dehydration.  

Finally, while this topic has brought up excellent discussion regarding my claims, I'd love to hear any ideas WRT one of my original questions: how might I most significantly increase bodily protein demands?  I've been pinching the shit outta myself trying to bruise, but to no avail.  I'm thinking of some rather dumb sounding ideas: bloodletting, smacking myself against walls, getting a buddy to leg kick me a bunch...but I'm convinced greater protein demand would help.  I guess heavy lifting would be the most repair-intensive type of exercise?  Certainly the most anabolic.

Can you give me an idea of how you are testing for this or where your sources are coming from?

My energy is pretty crappy, and I also have extremely bubbly urine, but energy wise it isn't worse off than it was prior to VLC so I'm assuming their are other underlying issues. In my history I've probably not done more than 1 lb of meat with some eggs in the last 2 years, prior to that having no animal protein for more than 3. I've been assuming I AM in ketosis (and that in itself being a possible cause of fatigue, in general or due to any specific issues I have), because if I was just burning small amounts of glucose, I would think my energy would be even worse than when I tried going back on carbs and meats. Is it possible the bubbly urine is something else?

I'm glad you asked this; over at DC someone asked "How are you determining whether or not you're in ketosis, Carnivorous? By how you feel?"  And I replied:

That's pretty much my only yardstick, yup.  It's not perfect, but I can't think of any other solid measurement.  The way I see it, the increased energy/reduced sleep requirement/mild euphoria/decreased inhibitions are all solid indicators of ketosis.  These indicators tend to be reported a few days in when SAD individuals fast, when Atkins dieters undergo "induction", and by almost all "successful" ZC/VLC dieters.  Obviously weight loss is a significant part of ketosis but trying to measure ketosis by weight loss seems fruitless apart from much longer terms.

This is where my idea of excess protein fits in.  Since fat apparently never releases insulin (though it can be stored via ASP) it should never inhibit ketosis, period.  Logical enough, since fat is fuel for ketosis- why should it ever inhibit it?  This leads to the issue of individuals attempting VLC/ZC diets who cannot seem to lose weight and/or have lousy energy levels.  Assuming they aren't cheating and eating significant amounts of carbohydrate, the only stimulus left that could be causing insulin release and therefore inhibiting ketosis would be protein.

It also would appear that individuals' sensitivities regarding excess protein releasing insulin may vary wildly, just as individual responses to carbohydrates are all over the map.  It may be that sensitivity to excess protein is a blessing in disguise, just as obesity/acne/diabetes is for those that respond to those symptoms by reducing carbohydrate intake.

Well that was longer than anticipated.  I've been thinking about this a lot lately- these aren't necessarily new ideas, but I've noticed some individuals that brought them up on ZIOH but were generally quashed and banned before too much discussion could take place.


I also feel that excess protein can be one of the main reasons people have problems with low-carb diets although I can think of plenty more, many people gloss right over this. The body has very little need for protein(perhaps as low as 30g/day for sedentary adults) and all excess amounts will be converted to glucose or fat. Saying its the problem for 99% of low-carbers is going way to far, imo. I lift weights intensely and have been eating low protein (50-100g) per day on average and have still been suffering energy wise as well as a host of other issues. The liver needs to be functioning properly to allow for proper fat digestion as well.

When I said 99% of VLC/ZC I was really not including all low carbers in the bunch, only those who exclusively eat animal products (minus milk).  I was also referring to those who have put in the time (> 1 month) and still felt lousy.  Now 99% of this group still may be a gross exaggeration, but for those who have fixed their digestion and still not seen results I'm hypothesizing excess protein is absolutely the cause.

I have read through most of your posts and your ideas contributed to my ideas of excess protein.  While you say you're eating low protein and still suffering energy wise, I'm fairly certain I saw a post of yours about bubbles in your urine?  I'm fairly certain excess levels of protein can take a VERY long time to clear.  I'm guessing you've eaten very high protein/supplemented protein in the past, given your heavy lifting.  Perhaps many of us are still dealing with the long term effects of the popular fitness dogma to eat protein with every meal and drink protein shakes PWO.

I'm really starting to think excess protein can be as big if not a bigger problem than excess carbs.  We know low calorie diets result in the longest lifespans, and we know excessive carbs are harmful, but could the real damage be from excess protein?  This could explain the paradox of different cultures living far longer on high-carb diets than other cultures with diets much higher in fats.

Actually both of your experiences are part of my theory.  I also feel much better when having a few carbs while having low energy trying to ZC.  What I'm proposing is that we, as individuals struggling and feeling like garbage most of the time on ZC diets, are extremely sensitive to excess protein and our bodies convert it immediately to glucose.  This would keep us from using ketones for fuel and instead trying to run on an EXTREMELY limited supply of glucose, thus the feeling like shit part.

I actually just typed a huge post about this on Dirty Carnivore, might just cross post it here in a minute.

About 5 weeks ago I started feeling good and energetic on my carnivorous diet (after about 5 months of mostly feeling down) and resumed my heavy athletic training, from 4 to 8 hours a day.  I felt great for a few days, upping my food intake to about 4-5 pounds of raw ground beef.  Soon I lost my energy, happiness and drive.  I started sleeping more, feeling irritable, etc.  I ate this much meat for about 7 days after stopping my training, suspecting that I just needed more fuel and I was somehow overtraining.

My muscles felt fine, my recovery was fine; this was not overtraining as I'd experienced before on high carb diets.  In retrospect, this switch was the feeling of being knocked out of ketosis and put back into a sugar burning mode. It took me quite some time to figure out that this was apparently due to protein overdose and the ability for it to knock one out of ketosis.  My diet never dropped below 70% calories from fat, and probably averaged ~75%- this was not rabbit starvation, at least not the way we know it.

It has been 2 weeks now that I've 99% avoided any protein and stuck to tallow exclusively.  I've even fasted 4 days with no food whatsoever and still not returned to ketosis.  I'm going by the bubbles in my urine as a guide to my body still converting protein to glucose, and expect that when the bubbles clear ketosis will kick in.

So my question long would an excess of protein take for the body to excrete?  I'm guessing I built up somewhere from 2500-4000g of excess protein, maybe even had some excess from previously.  Would there be any way to significantly speed the removal of this excess?  (I'm thinking of intense exercise, bruising, maybe even bloodletting?)

I'm starting to suspect excess protein is actually the cause of 99% of VLC/ZC'ers difficulties with energy/adaption.  Obviously most don't eat 4+lbs of meat daily, but I suspect it takes very little excess protein to stop ketosis in it's tracks and induce a constant high insulin state (VERY bad for all sorts of reasons.)

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