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Hot Topics / Re: tallow v. butter
« on: January 06, 2011, 03:20:52 am »
I'll admit that I don't know as much about this stuff as others on the boards, but shouldn't the oxidized fats in tallow be different from the "heat created toxins" created when cooking proteins and fats together?

Also, I think there have been studies showing spices can reduce "heat created toxins" (though I'm not sure if these are the same toxins you are referring to):

Hot Topics / Re: tallow v. butter
« on: January 05, 2011, 06:56:10 am »
yeah I had the same concern, so I contacted green pastures, which sells the butter oil and fermented cod liver oil and he also verbally confirmed the ratio saying 2.5:1-3:1 (w3:w6) for the grass fed butter oil. He also said one of the best ways to see if they were partially grain fed was to look at CLA levels in the milk during that time. He wouldn't email me the full fatty acid profile though. So there is no way to verify.

Hot Topics / Re: tallow v. butter
« on: January 05, 2011, 04:53:38 am »
I called up

and he sad their grass fed butter is anywhere between 1.5:1 to 3:1 (w3-w6 ratio)

compare this to grass fed beef:

Total        99.99
  *Sat      51.45
  *Mono      44.66
  *Poly      3.88
    -CLA      1.46
    -w3      1.22
    -w6      1.09

In general, I think grass fed butter and animal fat will have favorable w3-w6 ratios (but butter might be overboard once you are healthy). In general, the risk with grass-fed butter is lactose, cow hormones, and some other milk proteins like casein, not w3-w6 ratio. Even if butter is mainly fat, and is cultured, there will still be trace amounts that can cause problems. Although, I personally don't get any noticeable symptoms (other than finding its taste "weird").

Also, butter has more mono-sat and less waxy esters than suet, which makes it easier to digest raw for people still transitioning on the diet.

Hot Topics / Re: tallow v. butter
« on: January 05, 2011, 02:50:35 am »
Overall I agree with you that plant foods are hardly nutritious compared to grass fed animal foods and that antioxidants may be treated like toxins within the body (in that we just urinate them out).

However, if the main concern of cooked fats is oxidation (there may be others that I am unaware of?) then spices like tumeric (with thier high ORAC values) may be able to counter act some of this oxidation. (also can you point me to the studies of cooked paleo dieters suffering from heart disease)

Further, just like most studies of meat are never on raw meat, most studies of metabolism are never on ketosis. The old age conditions you describe from cooked fats may not apply as significantly when the body is fully utilizing fats. (for example, it is not that crazy to think that if the body is in ketosis then it has promoted systems to better handle oxidized fats)

Don't get me wrong, I totally believe that fully raw grass fed animal foods are the way to go. Instead, I am suggesting that when raw grass fed fats are unavailable (or indigestible) perhaps it is better to eat cooked grass fed fats than it is to reduce fat consumption.

Hot Topics / Re: tallow v. butter
« on: January 04, 2011, 11:48:47 pm »
yeah, I would eat marrow, but there are just feasibility and storage issues.

For example, last time I ordered about 60 lbs of marrow (with bones) from slankers. Since I have no place to store it, I spent like 8 hours extracting the marrow into gallon glass jars. I ended up with a bit over 6 lbs. Given the time involved, it doesn't make sense if you already spend most of your days working.

The best alternative I have found for a "soft" fat (high in mono-sat fat / easier to digest) is exterior pork fat. I'm willing to bet fowl fat is "soft" as well, but I have never been able to source it raw.

Also, regarding suet: while I am positive that raw is better than rendered  (if you can digest it), how do you explain Lex Rooker's success and people on cooked paleo diet's success? While I know some end up with gut cancer, this is very different from heart disease and can probably be mitigated if cooked fats are consumed with antioxidants (salad/kimchi/spices).

Hot Topics / Re: tallow v. butter
« on: January 04, 2011, 02:28:50 pm »
yeah I've sourced grass fed pet food (beef from slankers, and chicken from a farmer) however, these are actually even leaner < 10% fat. I was trying to get a hold of some whole small game animals. That way I could eat everything, which probably ends up having the correct fat to protein ratios. Otherwise, it seems like you have to add an outside source of fat like marrow, back fat, butter, or tallow.

Hot Topics / Re: tallow v. butter
« on: January 04, 2011, 09:19:45 am »
Yeah, I'm not zero carb.

I am low carb though and my current grass fed meat isn't really fatty enough: I would have to eat like 3 pounds a day (plus some carbs) to get enough calories (~2000).

Wild game is a good idea though. I just have no idea how to source any. Do any of you guys know of someone who has bought wild game in NYC before?

Hot Topics / tallow v. butter
« on: January 04, 2011, 06:04:47 am »
I prefer to eat raw marrow or raw grass fed pork fat, but due to storage-price-availability issues, they are not dependable for me. Instead, I have much better access to raw grass fed butter and grass fed tallow (self made because I cannot currently digest raw suet nor do I think it tastes good, like pork fat does). Which do you think would be better, eat the tallow and try to transition to raw, or eat butter, or some combination?

Hot Topics / Re: how to calibrate salt
« on: December 24, 2010, 02:59:43 am »
I'm guessing the key to toxicity half of the sodium equation is daily exercise/sweating. This is tricky for me because I spend most of my time at work and indoors during the winter.

However, what about the deficiency half of the equation? From my own experience, I know after a while my body will adapt to very low sodium, but I doubt this is optimum biochemically. As I have seen throughout the forums, salt intake is key for adequate stomach acid production.

Adding salt to my meat almost always makes it taste better, so I am hesitant to guide my intake based on taste. And from experience, I have never noticed a difference whether I get my salt from kimchi-seasalt-or seaweed, though fish and crab seem to be a more optimal (and expensive) choice.

Hot Topics / how to calibrate salt
« on: December 23, 2010, 02:31:49 am »
How do you guys know if you are getting enough/too much salt? What methods to you take to ensure optimum levels?

From my experimentations, I am led to believe the best strategy is to always drink a ton of water and then go zero salt for some time, then binge salt one day. The water ensures the kidneys can filter out excess salt when you binge. And my previous experimentation suggests that if you are not sweating a lot the body is very good at maintaining sodium homeostasis.

However, for people who spend a lot of time outside, how much salt do you consume? (if you do post, also mention your body weight for reference)

Hot Topics / how to make vegetables "safe"
« on: December 23, 2010, 02:17:50 am »
For a long time I have been eating zero plant based food, but have gradually been reintroducing them into my diet.

I began with sourkraut/kimchi, because it was the only raw way to remove most of the toxins in plants.

However, now I have begun experimenting with cooking again.

My first intuition was that the safest plant foods are roots. There is good evidence that not only early humans, but also most omnivores have been eating roots for a long time. I happen to believe that cooking or fermenting the roots are better for allergies and digestiblity, but I'm willing to bet you could do fine eating them raw, and it may even be beneficial with things like carrots (which very few people have allergies to).

The aim of this post is to make a comprehensive list of root vegetibles and the nutritionally best ways to prepare them (to deactivate toxins, anti nutrients, etc). For the time being, I am going to exclude tubers like yams and sweet potatoes because their macro nutrient properties are so different.

From wikipedia I got these familiar foods so far:

celeriac (not celery)



Also worth to note is the high antioxidant properties of the spices (turmeric, ginseng, and ginger) which could be beneficial to add to meals that you are forced to eat cooked. Following this reasoning, cloves (dried flowers) and cinnamon (dried bark) and maybe even oregano, might be interesting spices to include into ones diet (the three "foods" with highest antioxidant levels per gram) either in meat or as tea (a topic which may deserve its own post).

Hot Topics / MDA view on ZC
« on: December 23, 2010, 01:01:22 am »

has this article already been discussed?

Hot Topics / raw coconut aminos?
« on: December 17, 2010, 12:51:25 am »
as a condiment for raw meat/sashami:

1 bottle lasts over two weeks and has <75 g sugar and ~5 g sodium. So i guess it adds about 5 g sugar and .5 g salt per day

If I prefer the taste of raw meat using this product, should I use it?

Hot Topics / Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« on: November 17, 2010, 11:33:18 pm »
What's wrong with fruit, or "fructose carbs"?

Honestly, I don't think fructose is a big deal in the short term (if it is not a regular part of your diet). Although, as goodsamartin mentioned, there may be supplemental herbs to reduce symptoms (if you even get any) which would allow you to eat larger amounts of fructose.

The theory for why fructose is bad, is simply a relationship between insulin response to different energy sources. Fat is the lowest, then protein, then glucose, then fructose (there are probably more energy sources that belong on this list).

A high insulin response is correlated with other health issues. The PaNu and hyperlipid blogs talk more about the specifics.

One question I have, is what are other animal sources of carbs? I know you can get some from liver, in the form of glycogen, but how much?

Hot Topics / Re: Dangers of RZC part II
« on: November 17, 2010, 11:09:29 am »
I think that just stresses the importance of consuming some form of non fructose carbs, whether liver, or cooked tubers, or milk. And the importance of drinking a ton of water.

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / salt and melted fats
« on: November 07, 2010, 12:46:34 am »
im trying zero carb again and have a few questions for you guys:

1) how much salt/minerals (if any) should I be consuming? And from what sources (salt, seaweed, organs, eggs, lemon)? Is it better to be consumed with water or with meat? Also how do you calibrate if you are getting enough salt/minerals and water?

2) for some reason melted suet tastes really good to me and seems easier to digest. Other than time savings, is there any reason to avoid gently heating the fat to improve its taste (to me) and digestibility (for me)? Or more specifically, has anyone seen health benefits from switching to raw suet from heated suet. I know Lex switched from raw to cooked and his health has continued to improve. But who knows if it would have improved faster if raw.

General Discussion / Re: what is adrenal fatigue/burnout?
« on: October 26, 2010, 03:15:50 am »
Any recommended ways to manage adrenal fatigue. Moreover, ways to add some body fat if underweight?

General Discussion / what is adrenal fatigue/burnout?
« on: October 25, 2010, 02:39:01 pm »
I was searching the forums, and there does not seem to be any full explanation of what adrenal fatigue is and how it leads to the proposed symptoms.

What I have gathered so far is that the adrenal glands no longer produce enough of their hormones (aldosterone, cortisol, DHEA, epinephrine, and norepinephrine).

What I don't understand is why this means someone should regulate their blood glucose levels more than a normal person. Or not fast. Or the list of other recommendations.

In general, it might be useful to at least compile the information into one place. If this already exists, let me know where to look.

Health / Re: triglycerides and cholesterol
« on: October 24, 2010, 04:30:08 am »
Do any of you guys know the biochemistry that would cause fasting triglycerides levels to triple in a week? This is really puzzling me.

Health / Re: triglycerides and cholesterol
« on: October 23, 2010, 05:28:44 am »
I dumped the raw butter three weeks ago, and replaced with marrow and zero carb. That led me to this state. I am male 23.

The fast was more of just calorie restriction (< 1000 per day). I was eating everything though from grains to raw fats.

Health / Re: triglycerides and cholesterol
« on: October 23, 2010, 05:22:11 am »
I first tried raw meat late last year.

Did A fast/calorie restriction where I went from 128 to 110. Then been doing all raw for about 6-7 months (except for jerky and occasionally smoked fish). Until last three weeks used raw butter and fruits and veges for energy.

Have tried all organs and glands. Had bad reactions to testes and adrenal/thyroid.

I have yet to regain weight from fast.

Since I am in a fragile state, I'm not going to do a pure water fast, instead I'm thinking holding back on meat and fat until blood chemistry stabilizes. And instead using veges and citrus for energy in the meantime (probably 3-4 days). I will continue to drink 2+ liters of water a day.

Health / Re: triglycerides and cholesterol
« on: October 23, 2010, 12:41:01 am »
i meant spring water (whole foods brand and poland spring) not mineral water (if there is a difference).

I calibrated consumption to make sure my urine was clear by end of day (I ate meal in morning/afternoon). Generally I would have 1/2-3/4 liter before meal. 1/2-3/4 liter 3-4 hours after meal. and 1/2-3/4 liter later in the day sometime.

I had never done high amounts of water until 3 weeks ago. Before that mainly used raw fruits or juices for hydration.

Health / Re: triglycerides and cholesterol
« on: October 22, 2010, 09:29:43 pm »
if it was just a cholesterol increase, then the result would make more sense to me, but the triglycerides are what is confusing and worrying. Also, I checked and my white blood cell count, and liver (distress) proteins increased too. Top that off with the slight pain in upper right chest and back and it seems like my liver is unhappy with the state of things.

the kimchi has no MSG. But I expect digestion wont be as smooth as zero carb.

Health / triglycerides and cholesterol
« on: October 22, 2010, 11:21:04 am »
i recently had some super strange symptoms. I want to know if anyone has seen anything like this happen.

I recently went high-fat zero-carb raw-paleo (well almost, added seaweed and lemons for minerals and digestion and used jerky if I got hungry later in day). Much like Lex's meal plan. Eating one meal a day of 1 pound slankers grass-fed beef pet food(10% organs) and 1/4-1/2 pound marrow (gradually increasing over the course of three weeks) and about 2 liters of mineral water.

First week was fine. End of second week slight pain in upper right chest and back. Got blood tests taken from normal doctor and my cholesterol had gone up from 190(5 months ago) to 230 (all in LDL, HDL went down 5 points). Also I got an abdominal sonogram(no gall stones but one small kidney stone in each kidney). Went to Endocrinologist yesterday (third week still on zero carb) and got blood work (cholesterol went up to 255 all in LDL) and triglycerides went up from 80(one week ago, and 50 five months ago) to 290(today). T3 and T4 showed up in "normal" ranges. Glucose dropped from 100 to 73 over course of week and was 88  five months ago.

to recap:

time frame: 5months ago -> 1 week ago -> today
glucose: 88 -> 73 -> 100
triglycerides: 50 -> 80 -> 290
cholesterol: 190 -> 230 -> 255 (HDL 55 -> 50 -> 50)

no gall stones on sonogram
T3, T4 normal
two small kidney stones (perhaps from long ago)

Starting last night I was getting headaches. And I'm eating all raw veggies/saurkraut/kimchi right now...

General Discussion / Re: pastured pork/boar fat v. grassfed suet
« on: October 21, 2010, 03:37:29 am »
I'm buying from slankers:

they say they do not feed any grains (including corn).

" Most of what they eat is grass, forbes, and leaves of trees.  But they also eat grubs, roots, acorns, berries, fruits (acorns, berries, and fruits are strickly seasonal), eggs, critters of all kinds, and about anything else they come across in the pastures and woods where they live."

if you look over the website, the supplier (ted slanker) seems to highly value truly grass-fed meat, and makes a big deal about it online. He prescribes to a cooked paleo diet.

Also the beef and bison I have ordered from him have been the best tasting I have tried other than fresh. So I have reason to believe his pigs really are on the diet he says.

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