http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130227151254.htm

more support that fats when raw are healthy and when cooked become dangerous.

what do you guys think of this:

http://primalnorth.blogspot.com/p/keto-adaptation-vs-low-carb-limbo.html

Ive read some of GCB's work, but, as I remember, his key point is that  aside from creating toxins, cooking also perverts our instincts, obscuring our decisions about what and how much to eat.

Its interesting to consider that slightly cooking could be equally as dangerous as fully cooking, just through a different mechanism. Based on the excerpts quoted and Tyler's concerns about enzymes, I'm curious if this is more of an issue with plant matter than with animal matter.

(I'd be surprised if there were significant amounts of proteases and lipases in animal tissue though I suppose it is possible.)

I guess what I really need to do is look into the temperatures when the reactions for PAHs/HCAs/AGEs/NSAs begin.

This makes sense as most mammals thermoregulate between 24C to 40C. So I guess ~40C would be the limit for truly raw.

You mentioned that up to 60C (you can sous-vide a steak) is still not considered cooked, but certain molecules become noxious. Any guidelines here, like the upper limit before proteins and fats start generating noxious substances -- for use when drying?

I bought something like 30 lbs of beef marrow and 30 lbs of bison marrow from slankers a while back. (I was testing the plausibility of getting all my fat from marrow)

What I found was that about 20% of what they sent me was the translucent yellow-orange "buttery" type, the remainder was the white type. Both are good, but the "buttery" type is the best tasting fat I have experienced so far.

There is one website online I found that  claims the softer marrow comes from the lower leg. But I have never seen any other verification of this. Slankers didn't seem to know what I was even talking about or care to check.

When I was scooping the marrow out, I noticed that each bone was different. Some had all soft marrow. Others had the soft marrow only near the joint. And some had the soft marrow in the center.

I imagine it depends on the animal, its diet, etc. Did notice that slanker's cows seemed to have more of the soft marrow than their bison. But the cow bones were bigger (radius).

do you think eating dirt (similar to how people supplement with clay) would be an alternative (possibly more convenient) to high meat?

my current opinion about his experience is that there is a difference between ketosis, and ketosis with one meal a day/IF.

for example, (this is all pure speculation) if glycogen regeneration is determined by blood concentration of glucose, then while doing ketosis with 3 meals a day perhaps most of the glycogen gets regenerated but there is still a bottleneck that only higher blood glucose levels will overcome. One way to achieve this increase in glucose is to eat a 400 cal carb meal like he did. However, another method would be to eat all the protein-fat meals in one huge meal. Again this is pure speculation. Either way, it suggests that if you cannot digest huge meals of meat and fat then perhaps you should add a few carbs until digestion improves.

After about a year going raw paleo, trying everything from primal to zero-carb without really any progress, I recently found out that the staple food I was eating was causing the problem: beef. Or more specifically, beef/bison blood.

While I have enjoyed many benefits from the diet, in terms better digestion and ketone metabolism, these were far over powered by a constant fatigue, which would only be relieved when I occasionally switched to eating lamb or cooked-paleo. It were these occasions that helped me decide to get the allergy tests done and conduct my own elimination diet experiments.  I now know fairly certainly that I am allergic to beef.

In light of this revelation, the path moving forward seems clear, but I know I can probably learn something more from the community. If any of you have advice and/or possible alternative explanations, please let me know.

Currently, I plan to remove raw beef from my diet for at least several months to a year. At that point, perhaps my allergic response will have faded and my stomach acid improved to eliminate more of the bovine serum proteins.

It's just going to mean a bigger hit to my bank account.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/monday-musings-new-grass-fed-study/

We do a lot of indian cooking and we have come to realize that Quality of spices matters!

Of course we have not done any quantitative analysis in our kitchen, i am not sure if the researchers are aware of that.

Crappy spices dont work medicinally at all, my wife uses spices as medcine, she can easily tell them apart.

fresh, organic spices may be good for very specific medicinal purposes due to other chemicals in them.

these chemicals probably have very little antioxidant properties though. As far as ORAC capacity goes, I have only seen that dried always has a significant amount more per gram (water weight). However, in the future we will probably find out this is a flawed metric.

In any case, if you look at the composition of the spice mix, you see the two most potent antioxidants, cinnamon and oregano make up about 30% of the 11.3 g mix. I bet they could have just used a 4 gram mix of only oregano and gotten the same result. This is much more reasonable and closer to what I ask my parents to add to my cooked food when I'm at home.

Tyler, I hate that this thread has emerged into an attack on your evidence and explanations, because we (the attackers) are not supplying as much evidence as you are to back up our claims.

I wanted to use this post to summarize a few points from each side of the argument, but I quickly realized that I couldn't even verbalize what you were arguing.

Are you arguing that: cooking of any type will ALWAYS speed up the "aging"/"deterioration" process (i.e. rate of cancer, heart disease, neurological and muscle disorders)?

In either case, please specify in your next post to prevent this conversation from becoming pointless. Are there particular types of cooking that are safer than others? which are the worst? when might it be beneficial? Have all these deterioration processes been documented (I am only aware of digestive and GI track cancer from cooked paleo diet)?

And just to be specific, I am arguing that lightly cooking fats high in waxy esters and sat fat, with moderate mono fat, and very low poly fat (in the presence of antioxidants) will cause negligible toxins (though still a few, which the body can easily handle through fasting and high fat diets). And also that the beta oxidation metabolic pathway (promoted in ketosis) is prepared to handle the oxidized fats (not the PAHs) from cooking.

Your first article about PAHs only mentions plant oils, which are unstable even at low temperatures (probably, why plants are also high in antioxidants). I mean flax seed oil has been known to spontaneously catch on fire: http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infpai/inflinspontaneouscombust.html. Just because we as humans combine fats from plants and animals into one category does not mean they behave the same way.

I "think" others here are arguing that lightly cooking (searing, steaming, boiling/poaching, slow cooking) meat in the presence of spices/antioxidants and eating with fiber/salad [a paleo-diet] will not speed up the deterioration process (except perhaps GI and digestive cancers, which were probably because of those people did not do cooked paleo with enough fiber and spices, or just not enough excersize/water) (note that in the long run i think fiber is bad, but can be useful to heal a cancerous gut by promoting certain regulatory microorganisms)

Again, this whole spices thing is my own CRAZY idea. Never really proven.

But I have seen a few studies confirming it, and a lot of human accounts. The spices cannot deal with PAHs once they have been formed. But they can lower the rate of oxidation, which in turn lowers the rate of PAH creation (I think?). Also, all the studies indicate that you really have to pour on the spices to see considerable effect, which could lead to buildup of other plant nasties. However, turmeric and ginger are one of the few spices with almost no reported symptoms (i think?), compared to things like pepper, curry, or other seed/leaf based spices.

Tyler, just for clarification, are the "major heat created toxins" from cooked meats also all formed during the heating of fats?

I was always under the impression that cooking fat and protein together produced nasty carcinogenic compounds, but I don't think I've ever come across things that show "low heating"(without burning/smoking) and "wet heating" of fats alone or starches alone produce these carcinogens (and if they do, it is at a much lower rate).

Also (as you pointed out) the study I cited does not show spices counteract the major cooked meat toxins, but it does lend evidence to spices counteracting oxidized fats.

Not to be repetitive, but, again, I do believe raw is best. This thread is supposed to be more about comparing the risks of cooking grass fed animal fats (not cooking meat, though I am aware there are bits of meat even in suet) v. the risks of raw butter.

The reason I think making this comparison is useful is because I have noticed many people on the boards have difficulty digesting raw suet and accessing very fatty fresh grass fed meat cuts. The alternatives as I have mentioned before are raw marrow (best), raw grass fed boar/fowl fat, tallow and raw butter. ( I should also add egg yolks to the list, which I previously forgot about) Given availability and storage issues with marrow and pork/fowl fat, this leaves tallow and raw butter (and now also raw egg yolks).