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Messages - KD

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whatever, I still think it's better to put a healthy cooked food eater firstly on fruits and vegeatbles and slowly progress to more and more meats rather than directly putting one on a carnivorous diet. It just makes more sense.

you might be right about that, it is subjective. like i said I don't think my raw veganism was completely a wash. But this will most likely be ones trajectory with RAF, as it makes more sense to people who have tried all other approaches. the other option would be transitioning from a cooked paleo/primal approach, which many find much healthier than raw vegan.

But, the OP was about teeth and your first response was about DR doing well, and the merits of fruit eating, which is what we have been discussing now.

I never said it would not lead to mineral defeciencies, I said fruitarianism might clear up inflamtion in GI tract, even goodsamaratin says this.

I think there is a place for many approaches for various ailments, but if you have been following forums like vegsource etc.. like I have even before the 811 book came out, you'd realize that the most common ailment people come to such a diet with is IBS, Chrons etc..and many years later people talk about flare ups are returning to extreme water fasting etc...

Why would there be ANY instances of flare ups if these things were a.) indeed cured b.) fruit doesn't bother intestinal tract or require any real digestion c.) the absurd notion that the colon is a smooth tube

I think your internal organs would be fine and in perfect order, just that ones energy levels would be low.

nope, never had a problem with low energy, quite the opposite, lack of sleep/mania complete emaciation etc...

no offence, but your 'thoughts' on the long term effects of fruit diets on the liver and kidneys do not mean much to me at this point

ok, I apologize if my choice of words was confusing

when I said "internal issues and functioning"

I meant, just because I felt good didn't mean my health on a cellular level, and also health of internal organs (kidney, liver etc..) were not suffering in some way.

did you read this online somewhere? What are you talking about only I would know? yes I spent almost 2 years eating foods that required "no digestion", and I showed far more signs of mineral deficiency and other issues that I did not have before. Was it 100% useless and harmful? probably not. That still doesn't make it a healthful strategy. I would look into something like Daniel Vitalis or something, who talks about these cleansing myths, that will inevitably be very harmful if at a certain point one doesn't turn to foods that actually contain necessary minerals and fat soluable vitamins.

I dont think it matters how people look, but how they feel.

ok, I think that is pretty dangerous thinking, sure I felt great on fruits up until I didn't feel good on fruits, this seems to be common experience. Does this mean all my internal issues and functioning also went on my 'feel good' ride, definitely not. Either way, the physical principals I touched on holds true, there is a difference between not caring about being thin, and literally being unable to build muscle, regardless of food intake (if one is claiming the foods to be 'perfect' and only requirement for health). Not to mention the actual damage of massive fruit sugar, which is touched on by many vegans as well, having had lots of experience with many fruitarians prior to the recent 811 craze.

pc, I don't like to bag on others and do believe myself that there are more than one approach to healthful living and eating. That said, those of us who've experienced being on high fruit diets for years can relate to some of the issues he seems to exhibit, irratibility, lack of muscle, etc...I havn't been paying attention in the past year or two, but to my knowledge he doesn't win races, semi-rightly blaiming how much dopeing in the sport there is. Seeing since he seems to follow the program as closely as possibly under the most ideal of circumstances (being in the tropics, eating fruit off trees most part of the year, having no amalgams, eating a range of fruits including fattier fruits etc...) his 'results' seem to be a poor model esp. for folks simply manufacturing the same macronutrient ratios in places like Canada for instance.

Remember, 811 is basically a pureified version of tradtional carb burning values a la Ornish etc...
high carb eating, especially raw fruit yields plenty of manic energy usable for sport, just because this is 'naturally occurring' doesn't make the assumption that it is healthier long term than things like drugs other athletes consume when it comes to adrenals etc... The arguments that fruits contain all the essential aminos, proteins and minerals etc...and eating 1000s upon thousands of calories above basel metapbolic cannot yield observable muscle growth is issue enough to suspect, other than the brain issues which are also protein/fat related.

I'm curious about your advise for beginners, is this because you found jumping 100% to RAF minus vegetation and fruits to cause problems for yourself? how long did you you try this?

Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet / Re: Giant Bananas!
« on: February 22, 2010, 02:41:37 am »
I've had manzo bananas at fruit and spice park in south tip of Florida. They are indeed huge but I don't know if they are much more close to the 'original' un-hybridized bananas. From the pic it looks somewhat plantain-like. was it at all starchy?


Florida avos shipped up north tend to be picked prematurely (and seem to be affected by this much more so than normal fruit) I find them far less edible than hass. but a Florida avo eaten off the ground, ripened in the sun, is like eating a lush mango, only fatty instead of sweet.

I've heard some cali (hass type) avos can get quite big but never seen one myself.

I tried briefly to find pics from the above mentioned 'retreat'. after coming across a retreat presented by a guy I've seen on another forum, who has been doing the program for probably less then 6 months and is already totally emaciated, I got disgusted and left.

counting from the first two front teeth as # 1, my number #3 tooth in on top and bottom is shaped like a primitive arrowhead, is that good? :)

General Discussion / Re: How bad do you think it is to freeze meat?
« on: February 20, 2010, 12:14:01 am »
It seems like a large percentage of people here (from the US at least) are depending on shipments of frozen meat (at least fats and organs)

seems also like a consensus that fats handle better freezing than muscle meats.


I guess it would be helpful to know if people are eating frozen muscle meats and fats on a regular basis in exclusion of fresh meats, and if thats a doable longer term strategy.

I've personally never had problems with grain fed animals of higher quality like WF Amish chickens or WF beef, and in the past would have assumed these to be better alternatives to frozen meat with altered bacteria/enzymes.

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« on: February 19, 2010, 12:46:43 pm »

My Tanglewood experience

Oh man this was quite a piece of entertainment, something about this guys writing style just cracks me up." Loren charges 10 cent for the computer, 50cent to get your clothes washed. "Loren has a small gift shop, he charges double the price of a shop just down the street." I've added my own Dave Chapel voice

Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet / Re: Bronze Silver Gold
« on: February 19, 2010, 04:11:22 am »
right, but here I am compareing two things, not the ideals of pastured fertile eggs bought from a small farm.

1.) store bought labeled organic eggs fed self proclaimed diet of organic grains and questionable amount of "free range"

2.) fertile labeled eggs (stamped on a non-descript recycled carton) with otherwise no marking from a non-regulated store. opening up the possibility that may be from chickens laced with hormones in addition to non-organic feed.

Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet / Re: Bronze Silver Gold
« on: February 19, 2010, 01:35:20 am »
Yeah, I've been to some farms that are doing things beyond organic and don't have organic certification.

I agree with organic labeling esp with eggs to be no sign of quality, but in a sense, I would be doing exactly the same with the 'fertile' label which is also from a store (not farm).

also, these eggs I'm thinking of are sold in a market that has no regulations of hormones etc.. like Whole Foods. So while eggs I get from whole foods might be 100% organic grain feed and might not even be free-range, at least I know there is no hormones.

my assumption is mainly that the hens are spending time with the rooster, and therefore probably outside eating some bugs and such as well, but perhaps this is not the case

Omnivorous Raw Paleo Diet / Bronze Silver Gold
« on: February 18, 2010, 12:43:17 pm »
It seems like issues of optimal / not optimal come up alot on this forum.

between fresh or frozen can be more complicated if the frozen is grass feed etc..

Sometimes it is hard to decide which is best for what situation.


I have a question on fertilized eggs that don't carry any of the badges of 'free range' or 'organic' business.

My thoughts are that the fertile chickens probably have freedoms to graze and I guess the rest  is unspecified is non-organic grains.

But getting good fertile eggs non-organic seems to be better than your general organic egg fed the same grain and non fertile


Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« on: February 18, 2010, 11:21:45 am »
When I first got into raw (vegan) foods, this had happened not too long ago and my mentor of sorts really tried to hammer home how dangerous these guys were. I ended up eventually following more or less a fruit based approach anyway unfortunately. He would say - of which I agree - that even these guys who have claimed to do all this water fasting, live in the tropics and grow there own foods etc... i.e. done everything RIGHT according to their own rules, there is still something not right about em' how they think/talk/look etc...often coming from more or less good/average health or minor health issues.

I was somewhat impressed with Trader for a time (heres some shots of him looking physically impressive)

but I've seen more current pics of him at talks and such and hear from others that he is looking terrible and is always caught sleeping all the time. same goes for Matthew Grace, who wasn't a low fatter but claimed he got his Schwarzenegger type build eating tons of fruit and avocado, and also is not holding up over the years.

Loren might have more tact then graham, and have some ideas that seem sound in comparison to 811 like not eating a million calories a day etc...but unfortunately its likely people will after poor results on 811 go to someone like Lockman, trying more dangerous fasts and limited calorie intake.

at the same time, I guess it is impressive for statistical reasons that people are even alive decades into some of these regimes, but you never know what is really going on. I mean, he isn't exactly exuding health in this video, but I can see him being pretty convincing to someone already convinced that fruit based diets are ideal.

Hot Topics / Re: Evolution
« on: February 18, 2010, 10:42:14 am »
Is anyone familiar with more..the mutation type theories. I think these suggest not that species have not developed or changed over time, but that looking at the fossil record suggests massive gaps in the supposed development between species. I think its something like there is no proof of any animal actually has gone through the process of natural selection (Darwinian) and that selection exists, but its far less 'creative'. i.e. indifferent to dominant or a recessive characteristics.

Journals / Re: Yuri recovery
« on: February 18, 2010, 10:27:32 am »
Why would the animal take time to put the toxins in the bone marrow which would be much more essential to health?

I'm certainly no expert on RPD, but most of what I've read over the years suggests that marrow will be more contaminated than muscle meats. I don't think its a conscious choice on the part of the animal, nor would it need to be. For example, humans can have all sorts of issues with toxins or heavy metals in various organs and indeed have bone marrow issues. Is their flesh/muscle tissue also toxic? I'd assume to some degree but far less than fatty tissue or organs, some of which of course are designed to try to filter out some of these substances and cannot. Also as an educated guess, I imagine bone marrow to be something that accumulates over a lifetime, the cells in muscle tissue being more in flux/state of detox.

   I think you'd have to eat the ovaries or testes during and/or before conception.

hmm the only image I can think of with this is some twisted version of the Seinfeld episode where George has an obsession with eating food during sex and sneaks whole sandwiches under the covers. which in paleo land becomes approaching from behind and sneaking bull testes out of a mason jar. Hoping in her pleasure she doesn't turn and see and ruin his dreams of fathering an all-star quarterback.  -X

Journals / Re: PaleoPhil's Journal
« on: February 13, 2010, 07:01:58 am »
I've been confused about the fat-labeling as well. I used to be able to acquire suet that was indeed suet from local farms but it was always frozen. I've never seen anything labeled suet in conventional markets like WF, although usually displaying organs (other than perhaps chicken liver or maybe heart) is also quite rare. For people in the US, are you acquiring these directly from farms or do you have relationships with butchers that carry grass-fed? are fats and organs the kind of thing markets like WF separate on site or do all their muscle meats get shipped as it? I think in the past I've asked for various fats only to get blank stares.

It seems the majority of people here object to frozen in most cases but I also see alot of posts from people in the US ordering from sites farms like Slankers or US wellness. I personally had no problems with frozen suet but it wasn't the staple of my diet and thus not consumed in larger enough quantities to determine.

Other than pictures, I havn't seen euro or asian squat toilets, but for me the elimination squat is far different then the resting squats above or exercise squats. I would think a full on squat although good for strengthening those internal muscles, would have similar issues to the typical western bowled over on a seat - compression. What works the best is creating an open up line (from the side this would look like a diagonal from your head into the receptacle) of your elimination organs by basically performing a chair like posture over where the hole is (with American style the seat being up of course) and lifting your arms above ones head helps greatly as well.

Great article

I've been doing full squats during elimination for years (in times of eating cooked food, this is usually harder even with good leg strength and often use a "stool" which is usually anything I can grab like a trash can)

as for exercise, theres another really great no-weight squat one can do which I think was popularized by Matt Fury called the "Hindu" squat. better to youtube it as its hard to sum up in text, but basically it is sorta like preparing to jump off of something but you keep it going up in down in a circular motion.

I tend to get lazy about doing these, but I try to make up for it when I do something with free weights like biceps or shoulders, I'll go down for a full squat while I'm lowering the weight then lifting the weight when on the the rise close to my waist. not sure if this is something others recommend but works for me.

Welcoming Committee / Re: m and my experiences
« on: February 11, 2010, 01:51:41 am »

well as I already said I have a hard time believing if I was just doing organs and other animal fats like suet ( which of both I was getting occasionally) instead of dairy (which  I was consuming in far less amounts then is recommend by AV) that the manic issues would have been avoided for that reason.

or the carbs I was eating in the forms of juices and some honey (wasn't doing nuts)

but you are right, I think I was trying to imply that I infered that burning carbs as main fuel source was manic energy akin to his discussion of fruits...this idea would allow for eating of some carbs.


I think the emphasis on chicken and fish could have been A factor that accelerated things and unbalanced my brain, perhaps if I was more focused on beef/organs and tried the charcoal and unsalted cheese and such things could have progressed more slowly and smoothly. Or perhaps eating cooked foods like I think he prescribes for some.

Sure I've taken my share of drugs and have no doubt even with my diet experimentation over many years that these remain, but at the present I unfortunately have the requirement of keeping the current and only one in my system.

if my only worries were eczema or extreme allergic reactions, or depression, this of course would not be the case.

i'm sure they are factoring into my fatigue situation but as Rawzi points out medically I'm quite healthy, all the extensive lab stuff shows nada etc..

but I find your tips very helpful (although I was eating the cheap fatty cuts)


Sure I have plenty of scrutiny and knowledge and folks saying if you do this or that then x drugs are unnecessary that it is VERY hard to take stuff that doesn't even make one feel good - in fact its quite the opposite. its certainly all over the raw-vegan camps which I don't believe, and at this point I can't afford to go on my -or others -ideals over my experiences. Even if I have confidence that any approach could in fact do the long term healing and repair, it seems I need an approach that functions in the short and long terms and isn't going to land me in a prison or hospital away from any healthful food.

Carnivorous / Zero Carb Approach / Re: De Vany vs. Graham
« on: February 10, 2010, 06:13:39 am »
I don't think you can deem someone healthy on the basis of their looks which can be deceiving (as commented on Bear etc..), the converse I think isn't as absurd -especially in person (but also from photographs) to bring criticism to their ideas. Although also as pointed out sometimes this can be a transition/healing period where people can not look so well, but with long term proponents and "experts" I don't think this is the issue

When people make claims about their diet using the words "ultimate" "diet meant for humans" "healing/detoxing" "most efficient use of fuel" "regenerative" it is perfectly natural for someone to expect that this will manifest physically in a positive way, not necessarily compared to various ideals of beauty but have a visible vitality.

also worth mentioning most people that eat conventional 'healthy' diets that happen to look well usually don't make these claims, and will tend to talk more about "moderation" "exercises" etc...

I can say from working in photo industry that while its very true that just about anything can be done with still photography and that virtually all print and web based media is retouched, it still remains that video can only distort via makeup and lighting. Minus the unlikely budget of Graham or Aajonus for CGI. Granted that webcams will not be the most flattering, but especially something shot outside in the sun is open game for commentary IMO.

If I'm not mistaken, another excuse (or sidenote) often responding to Grahams appearance is his claimed high level of fitness, and success (they claim) of increased fitness with aging athletes. It's fairly ironic that few of his disciples actually can create any muscle definition at all in comparison to his build, which is actually quite tiny in person. Another give away (which on top of pictures as I've said I do think can be a window into their program/success) Is that through his message boards etc.for a time he was just a completely irate intolerable son of a bitch. This seems to have improved (probably pointed out by an underling) and he tends to pull it together during interviews via my next point which is he's known to chomp down on bagles and such. Caught also by an intern at his fasting camps with Subway wrappers in his car. That said I think he does for the most part follow his low fat raw vegan regime, and the fact that being the most successful long term example of his ideas his actual results should have more of an impact on people than they do.

As for Aajonous I've never seen him personally, discounting pics I think he looked like a badass in the Ripley's episode on "high meat" which clearly tried to paint him as a creep. More recently on "The Doctors" I thought he was looking not so well (although for someone in his 60's definitely healthy enough) but perhaps due to the antiseptic and ignorant panel and audience he seemed a bit jittered in presence as well.

Welcoming Committee / Re: m and my experiences
« on: February 10, 2010, 12:42:05 am »
Another thing I thought to mention is I was eating tons of raw chicken, I'd say in all of 6 months over 50% of what I ate was raw chicken.

I remember reading or hearing about Aajonus saying this was major detox for brain and nervous system, perhaps this was a factor. certainly people around me thought it was crazy! Mostly I was just bored and tired of the expense with local eastern coast fish, and at the time it was hard to get a hold of grass fed meat.

Doesn't seem like alot of paleos eat (store bought) chicken, perhaps just wild poultry?

Welcoming Committee / Re: m and my experiences
« on: February 10, 2010, 12:37:15 am »
Right, I've read enough posts by now to know that raw dairy has not worked well for a number of folks here. I can't say if it was helpful or detrimental for me, but I have a hard time believing if I was just doing organs and other animal fats like suet ( which of both I was getting occasionally) instead of dairy (which  I was consuming in far less amounts then is recommend by AV) that the manic issues would have been avoided for that reason.

to me doing the raw dairy seems to be the most grounded (not saying what is healthiest or ideal for most people) esp integrating into a diet that is not all raw.

but sure, I'm always considering paleo, otherwise I probably wouldn't be here, just stating my experiences and thoughts, not my biases or beliefs :)

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