Author Topic: Pemmican  (Read 28579 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

William

  • Guest
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2009, 10:00:54 am »
Lex, maybe there is magic in the 80% fat thing.
See this thread in the paleofood archives, "Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio":
http://tiny.cc/IY4Fk


My memory may be erratic, but it works. Sometimes.

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2009, 10:45:15 am »
Lex, maybe there is magic in the 80% fat thing.
See this thread in the paleofood archives, "Re: Was Pemmican cure, Now Protein to Fat Ratio":
http://tiny.cc/IY4Fk


My memory may be erratic, but it works. Sometimes.

I never said we didn't need enough fat - only that there was nothing magic about 80% calories from fat and that many of us do better on less.  I still stand by this.  Even the formula for "proper" pemmican given in the thread you linked is 50/50 which is not 80% calories from fat.  The thread also indicated that eating would become instinctive and you would automatically eat the amount of fat and protein your body wants each day.  Our paleo ancestors did fine without worrying over grams protein per kilogram of body weight.  They just ate their meat and fat until they were satified and then lived their lives to the best of their ability.  Why we insist on making something as natural as eating so complicated as to need a calculator is beyond me.   I no longer worry about such nonsense.  I just eat meat and fat until I'm satisfied and let my hunger dictate proportions.   50/50 pemmican has also never failed to fully satisfy my hunger so I find no need to try to achieve someone's silly notion of "perfection". 

Remember, conventional wisdom states that carbohydates are the 'perfect' foods for us and there are many studies that "prove" this.  My personal experience has demonstrated otherwise for me.  The same goes for the conventional wisdom of 80% calories from fat being 'perfect'.  My personal experinece has demonstrated otherwise for me (and many others I might add).

When I was young and stupid, (the difference today is that I'm no longer young), I'd follow the studies or the advice of the gurus even when it clearly wasn't working, because it was the RIGHT thing to do - the studies said so.  Today I'm far more concerned with what works than what the studies show or gurus say.

Lex

William

  • Guest
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2009, 07:43:30 pm »


 Today I'm far more concerned with what works than what the studies show or gurus say.

Lex


Me too. That's why I tried the higher proportion of fat, and so far so good.
I agree that it isn't written in stone, so the right proportion might change depending on the state of one's biochemistry.

Offline wodgina

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,304
  • Opportunistic Carnivore
    • View Profile
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2009, 08:01:39 pm »
Must be different than mine, the taste grew on me, but I would not call it tasty. Is the meat still raw?

Surprising that you didn't know when to stop, the fat makes it soon satisfying for me.

Raw dried kangaroo. I  don't seem to hit the point where I don't want any more and just keep eating and eat a lot more than if it was raw and don't feel as good afterwards.

Handy snack if traveling but prefer raw as a staple.



“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

William

  • Guest
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2009, 10:01:45 pm »
/my bad
I forgot the most important point on reviewing the paleofood thread, to wit: according to Phinney and Rosedale if protein >1.45g±0.25/kg we experience something called gluconeogenesis, this means we are still burning sugar instead of fat for fuel, and "One concern with higher
levels of protein intake is the suppression of ketogenesis relative
to an equi-caloric amount of fat (assuming that ketones are a
beneficial adaptation to whole body fuel homeostasis)".

This explains why I feel better with a higher proportion of tallow in my pemmican.

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2009, 05:11:48 am »
This explains why I feel better with a higher proportion of tallow in my pemmican.

Maybe, and then again maybe not.  If only the explanation were as simple and straight forward as eating..... 

Thankfully our bodies do just fine in spite of our meddling.

Lex

William

  • Guest
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2009, 08:35:18 pm »
"When you eat more protein than your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is largely converted  into glucose and burned as fuel.  It turns you into a sugar maker and sugar burner!  This is not desirable or healthy."

Looks simple to me, and fits with experience.

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2009, 11:16:32 pm »
"When you eat more protein than your body needs to replace and repair body parts, excess protein is largely converted  into glucose and burned as fuel.  It turns you into a sugar maker and sugar burner!  This is not desirable or healthy."

Looks simple to me, and fits with experience.

I think that upon close examination, you'll find that somewhere around 58% of ALL protein eaten is conveted into glucose.  The rate of conversion seems to depend on the source of the protein.  Plant proteins convert at a different rate than animal protiens.  This has brought me to the conclusion (which could be wrong) that certain amino acids are converted and others are not.  Plant proteins have a significantly different amino acid profile than animal proteins and this would account for the different conversion rates.

There are also body systems that require glucose.  If you don't provide a diet dietary source, then the body will shred muscle and other lean tissue to create it.  Glucose is not a bad thing.  Excessive glucose is.  Even if you eat lots of protein, you'll find that your BG curve rises slowly and seldom elevates more than 25 to 30 points after eating a meal.  Eating any significant amount of carbs at a meal will often cause BG to rapidly shoot up 100 points or more causing an massive insulin reaction.

In my experience eating too much food is far more an issue than the fat/protein ratio of the food.  I was surprised to find that overindulgence in fat would also cause BG to rise, and kept fasting levels of BG 10 to 15 points higher throughout the day than lower fat higher protein meals.  Many others have found this to be true for them as well.

The easiest way to keep BG low is to eat a diet very low in carbs, and then eat just enough food to satisfy your body's needs.  Any more than that will cause fasting BG levels to rise and you will slowly accumulate body fat.  Wish it weren't so, but that is my experinece.

Lex

Lex

William

  • Guest
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2009, 09:16:11 pm »
Lex, in the first part of your journal you reduced bg by increasing percentage of fat to 80. That's what I am trying to do.

Offline lex_rooker

  • Trailblazer
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,231
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2009, 01:18:36 pm »
Lex, in the first part of your journal you reduced bg by increasing percentage of fat to 80. That's what I am trying to do.

You will find that you must also decrease food intake for this to happen.  I found I had to decrease intake from 850 grams to around 650 grams to reduce BG over the long term.

Whenever you make a change you will find that BG, Ketones, etc may rise or fall for the first few weeks and then will ultimately stabilize at some level.  It can take months to fully stailize and the final stable level may be much higher (or lower) than the initial change.  This is why when I do an experiment I commit to the change for 4 to 6 months to let my body adapt a reveal the long term effects.

Just as I appeared to lose weight when I first made the change to high fat, over the months I began to gain weight.  If I'd only done the experiment for 30 or 60 days, I would never have seen the weight gain and would have believed that a very high fat diet would cause weight loss.

In your case you may find that BG falls for a few weeks but then will slowly rise again and stabilize near the level you had before you increased your fat intake - especially if you keep your food intake at the previous level.  They say that when eating ZC calories don't count and that may be true, but my experience as well as the experience of many other long time ZCer's has clearly demonstrated that something counts.  We've learned that if we over eat, BG rises and we gain weight - not as much or as rapidly as when eating carbs, but we do gain none the less.  Also we've learned that the ratio of fat to lean is less important than the amount we eat in controlling both BG and weight.

Lex

Offline Roselene

  • Deer Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 86
    • View Profile
    • I like We Want 2 Live.
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2009, 04:33:09 am »
Thank you Lex.  I make my own coconut oil.  I don't use any external chemical solvents.  The only ingredient I use is coconut juice cream that I make quickly myself.  I didn't mean to eat it every day.  Maybe if I was camping I would, but I like fresh food, so I say no way to the often.  I like liver a lot.  I know I dislike dried muscle meat.  Maybe pemmican really isn't for me.  I may still try.  I'll let you guys know when I do.   

Offline Ioanna

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,338
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2009, 12:09:38 am »
I thought pemmican could be such a great food for me the convenience of travel and social eating.

My recent observation is that the dehydrated lean causes much intestinal upset.  The fat I use is not rendered, it's just mushed fat that had been warmed at 85 degrees for a few hours. I have been eating my fat like this for a several months now. I'm sure it's the lean, despite being technically 'raw'.  The same lean in non-dehydrated form would be perfectly tolerable too.  Is this strange?  At least I know what I can/can't handle.

My dog now has some really awesome treats!

Offline djr_81

  • Hakuna Matata
  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,246
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2009, 01:58:13 am »
I thought pemmican could be such a great food for me the convenience of travel and social eating.

My recent observation is that the dehydrated lean causes much intestinal upset.  The fat I use is not rendered, it's just mushed fat that had been warmed at 85 degrees for a few hours. I have been eating my fat like this for a several months now. I'm sure it's the lean, despite being technically 'raw'.  The same lean in non-dehydrated form would be perfectly tolerable too.  Is this strange?  At least I know what I can/can't handle.

My dog now has some really awesome treats!

Was the meat grass or grainfed Ioanna?
When I began catching on to my digestive issues with grainfed it was through the raw jerky I had made. After I caught on to the digestive problems with the jerky I started to pick up on the problems with raw grainfed (slight runny nose and sore throat, as well as some stomach rumblings not long after eating).
If I eat grassfed raw jerky alone it just makes me hungrier and I eventually get a slightly sour stomach if I eat a bunch without any fat. Pemmican sits great with the grassfed jerky as does a meal of jerky and fat cubes. :)
https://www.facebook.com/djr1981
As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler; solitude will not be solitude, poverty will not be poverty, nor weakness weakness.
-Henry David Thoreau

Offline Ioanna

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,338
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2009, 02:16:48 am »
was grass-fed, the same that I eat fresh with no problem.

i'm not sure i can tell a difference between grass-fed and grain-fed on my digestion... maybe the differences are too subtle for me to realize yet since my problems have been so disastrous? i eat grass-fed anyway though just because I believe it is healthier, I prefer to support local farmers, and I had been too desperate for health improvement and seeking a 'perfect' diet.

Offline TheWayCreatesTheWarrior

  • Buffalo Hunter
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • WhereHaveTheBuffaloGone
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2009, 02:13:40 pm »

couple questions,

ive never made Pemmican, or even know how to render fat for that matter, but i plan on making and using Pemmican as my main food source for about a six month expedition.

what is the best cut of meat to use?

what is the best fat to use?

can i cut in some Bone marrow in the process?

will dried berries facilitate spoilage?

i planned on buying some sort of foodsaver to package Pemmican in individual, airtight, serving size portions, seeing ill be living out of a backpack, i assume this will keep. i planned on preparing all the pemmican for the whole trip and storing it in my fathers freezer/fridge(?) and he will send a couple week supply to my 'current' locations. it will also be the dead of winter so i assume this will help keep the Pemmican from spoiling.
There can be no mercy in the heart, of the heart, of the Wolf.

William

  • Guest
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2009, 09:15:12 pm »
The best cut of meat is the leanest.
The best fat is that on the back, just before the tail (loins). Some say that it is better to mix some kidney fat with this.

I don't know about marrow, but I would not expect it to keep as well.

I've never used dried berries, and will not. Best experiment first.

Pemmican keeps well in ziploc freezer bags for short term (less than a year) storage, and easier to carry than the Mason jars for long term. I have seen bugs that will eat holes and breed in these bags.

Offline djr_81

  • Hakuna Matata
  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,246
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2009, 10:16:23 pm »
what is the best cut of meat to use?
As William mentioned the leaner the better. You are drying the meat as thoroughly as possible and this is easier in a dehydrater with lean muscle as opposed to fat.

Quote
what is the best fat to use?
Suet fat will render into a stiffer base for the pemmican which will make it easier to eat IMO. It wouldn't hurt to add some hide fat though as it's more flavorful. If I was making a large batch to carry as you are I'd do a 50/50 fix.

Quote
can i cut in some Bone marrow in the process?
I wouldn't recommend it as it seems to melt at lower temps and has quite a bit of water & protein in it which you'll be working longer to render out.

Quote
will dried berries facilitate spoilage?
I've not personally tried it but I read a number of comments that it will spoil quicker which makes sense since it's so hard to get all the moisture out of the berries. If you are dead set on the berries as an extra energy source I'd recommend drying them and then sealing them in separate bags you carry with you.

Quote
i planned on buying some sort of foodsaver to package Pemmican in individual, airtight, serving size portions, seeing ill be living out of a backpack, i assume this will keep. i planned on preparing all the pemmican for the whole trip and storing it in my fathers freezer/fridge(?) and he will send a couple week supply to my 'current' locations. it will also be the dead of winter so i assume this will help keep the Pemmican from spoiling.
,
The pemmican will keep perfectly fine this way. It's possibly even overkill, as properly prepared pemmican stores so well, but better to have the peace of mind that your food source is safe.
https://www.facebook.com/djr1981
As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler; solitude will not be solitude, poverty will not be poverty, nor weakness weakness.
-Henry David Thoreau

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2009, 07:08:12 am »
I think it depends partly on personal tastes and what you are trying to do (such as whether you need long-term storage). I don't need long-term storage right now, so I like to use top round steak (it has a bit more fat and flavor than eye of round) for the beef and grassfed suet for the fat (and I don't heat the suet long enough or at high enough temps to get all the moisture out).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline tear11

  • Forager
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2009, 03:08:20 am »
What is everyone opinion on us wellness pemmican? Is it that much more expensive then to make your own. The convenience of not having to make it is attractive. thanks

Offline djr_81

  • Hakuna Matata
  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,246
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2009, 08:02:09 am »
What is everyone opinion on us wellness pemmican? Is it that much more expensive then to make your own. The convenience of not having to make it is attractive. thanks
It seems expensive to me. I also like the transparency of making your own because you know the quality of what you put into it.
One last point to think about with the US Wellness pemmican; salt inhibits the storage ability and lowers the nutrition of the pemmican and US Wellness' pemmican is notorious for being overly salty. If you plan on using it as an emergency store, travel food, or main source of calories you might find it lacking FWIW.
https://www.facebook.com/djr1981
As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler; solitude will not be solitude, poverty will not be poverty, nor weakness weakness.
-Henry David Thoreau

Offline RawZi

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,052
  • Gender: Female
  • Need I say more?
    • View Profile
    • my twitter
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2009, 10:56:30 am »
One last point to think about with the US Wellness pemmican; salt inhibits the storage ability and lowers the nutrition of the pemmican and US Wellness' pemmican is notorious for being overly salty. If you plan on using it as an emergency store, travel food, or main source of calories you might find it lacking FWIW.

    I tried theirs.  It wasn't salty, I didn't detect any.  The one I got was without berries or honey.  I only bought and tried one individual serving bar, and gave most of it to the cats.  It was good, but they liked it too, and I didn't care.  I felt fine after eating what I did, so I was surprised, as I didn't feel good after each of the couple times I tried jerky.  I would try the pemmican again, and I think my family would freak if I dried meat in the dehydrator or allowed suet to melt, so it will probably be US Wellness if I try it again.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline djr_81

  • Hakuna Matata
  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,246
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2009, 07:00:19 am »
    I tried theirs.  It wasn't salty, I didn't detect any.  The one I got was without berries or honey.  I only bought and tried one individual serving bar, and gave most of it to the cats.  It was good, but they liked it too, and I didn't care.  I felt fine after eating what I did, so I was surprised, as I didn't feel good after each of the couple times I tried jerky.  I would try the pemmican again, and I think my family would freak if I dried meat in the dehydrator or allowed suet to melt, so it will probably be US Wellness if I try it again.
I haven't personally eaten US Wellness' pemmican but I've read a number of comments from posters on a couple boards that it used to be overtly salty for their tastes. Maybe it's different processed differently now or maybe it just falls down to personal mineral needs.
https://www.facebook.com/djr1981
As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler; solitude will not be solitude, poverty will not be poverty, nor weakness weakness.
-Henry David Thoreau

Offline RawZi

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,052
  • Gender: Female
  • Need I say more?
    • View Profile
    • my twitter
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2009, 07:23:54 am »
I haven't personally eaten US Wellness' pemmican but I've read a number of comments from posters on a couple boards that it used to be overtly salty for their tastes.

    They must have changed the recipes.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline RawZi

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,052
  • Gender: Female
  • Need I say more?
    • View Profile
    • my twitter
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2009, 09:28:07 am »
    This is it http://www.grasslandbeef.com/Detail.bok?no=1061, US Wellness's pemmican that I tried. Their other varieties do both have salt.  I don't understand why honey is added to one.  Weren't honeybees first brought over by the Europeans after they colonized?  I would think some ripe berries would be sweet.  Maybe it's the preservative quality of honey they're looking for?  Maybe maple was first used in it, or even agave and definitely not beef, anyway. 
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

William

  • Guest
Re: Pemmican
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2009, 11:42:26 am »
    This is it http://www.grasslandbeef.com/Detail.bok?no=1061, US Wellness's pemmican that I tried. Their other varieties do both have salt.  I don't understand why honey is added to one.  Weren't honeybees first brought over by the Europeans after they colonized?  I would think some ripe berries would be sweet.  Maybe it's the preservative quality of honey they're looking for?  Maybe maple was first used in it, or even agave and definitely not beef, anyway. 

When Indians made if for the Hudsons Bay Co., they put dried blueberries in it because they thought white men could not live without carbohydrates. They didn't do that for themselves, just powdered dried meat and tallow.
It won't keep as long with carbs in.

US Wellness is just pandering to the carb addicts, and their pemmican does not last a long time - people report it goes bad if not refrigerated. Something to do with the low temp at which the fat is rendered.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk