Author Topic: Pemmican  (Read 28607 times)

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Offline Ioanna

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Pemmican
« on: April 18, 2009, 11:26:29 pm »
What are your thoughts on pemmican as a food?  Has anyone tried it/testimony to its digestibility and effectiveness?  If the meat is dehydrated at low temp would you consider that raw still?

I'm sure you already know, but a family on another forum claims to eat only pemmican (seemingly raw, ie. care taken to keep fat rendering and meat dehydrating below 100 degrees) with wonderful results including reclaimed health.



Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2009, 01:41:21 am »
What are your thoughts on pemmican as a food?  Has anyone tried it/testimony to its digestibility and effectiveness?  If the meat is dehydrated at low temp would you consider that raw still?

I'm sure you already know, but a family on another forum claims to eat only pemmican (seemingly raw, ie. care taken to keep fat rendering and meat dehydrating below 100 degrees) with wonderful results including reclaimed health.

I'm amazed that anyone can claim to eat pemmican  at a genuinely raw temperature! Our resident pemmican expert, Lex Rooker, claims that pemmican just doesn't last anywhere near long enough unless it's heated to 100 degrees Centigrade or higher(230 degrees fahrenheit, I think?)!

For all intents and purposes, pemmican, IMO, is a last-resort food to be used only when travelling by RAFers, when genuinely raw, 100% grassfed meat is unavailable. As soon as one processes a food, whether by heat or whatever, one is reducing the suitability/digestibility of the food, so it's unwise to depend on pemmican in the long-term, IMO. After all, even the Eskimoes, let alone our Palaeo ancestors, didn't depend on pemmican alone  during their lifetimes.And even wild animals don't depend on just meat/fat as they go for the organ-meats first etc.

Another issue:- Most pemmican-users admit it tastes like sawdust!
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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2009, 02:44:13 am »
I'm amazed that anyone can claim to eat pemmican  at a genuinely raw temperature! Our resident pemmican expert, Lex Rooker, claims that pemmican just doesn't last anywhere near long enough unless it's heated to 100 degrees Centigrade or higher(230 degrees fahrenheit, I think?)!

For all intents and purposes, pemmican, IMO, is a last-resort food to be used only when travelling by RAFers, when genuinely raw, 100% grassfed meat is unavailable. As soon as one processes a food, whether by heat or whatever, one is reducing the suitability/digestibility of the food, so it's unwise to depend on pemmican in the long-term, IMO. After all, even the Eskimoes, let alone our Palaeo ancestors, didn't depend on pemmican alone  during their lifetimes.And even wild animals don't depend on just meat/fat as they go for the organ-meats first etc.

Another issue:- Most pemmican-users admit it tastes like sawdust!

No need to heat at high temperature if one eats pemmican without waiting several days. But it takes more time to dry the meat and melt the fat at low temperature.
With my porr digestive ability, I find pemmican much more digestible than plain raw meat, especially the fat. Processing is not always bad (think of sprouting, fermenting, etc.)
One can also make pemmican with organ.

Offline Raw Kyle

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2009, 06:25:11 am »
As one would expect pemmican makes me feel less good than raw meat, but nowhere near as bad as most cooked foods (meats even) make me feel.

And yes, I would consider the muscle part raw as long as it's dehydrated at a low temperature and then when combined with the rendered fat the fat is not hot enough to fry it.

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2009, 07:49:44 am »
I am attracted to the convenience of it, especially for travel.  I just want to be healthy, so I don't care what it tastes like... sawdust?, lol.  I just worry that I would gain weight with all that fat as I did on the non-pemmican red meat version of 80/20 non-carb way of eating.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2009, 08:20:26 am »
What are your thoughts on pemmican as a food?  Has anyone tried it/testimony to its digestibility and effectiveness?  If the meat is dehydrated at low temp would you consider that raw still?

I find it a very acceptable food.  I mostly eat it when traveling or away from home for a day or two and not as my primary diet.  There is some concern that it really isn't "raw paleo" because the fat is rendered at a relatively high temperature, but the truth is, I must live and function in the modern world and that requires some reasonable compromises.  I find pemmican a far better option than fast food fare from McDonalds, Burger King, Denny's, and 99.9% of the muck on supermarket shelves.

I find pemmican just as digestable as my normal raw meat.  My experience is rather pointless however, as I've been eating this way for a long time and if you are just transitioning to paleo or zero carb, your experience will probably be much different from mine.  If you are having problems with the transition to eating primarily meat and fat (either raw or cooked), don't expect any magic from trying pemmican.  Those on this forum with a good bit of experience will tell you that everyone pays their dues.

I'm sure you already know, but a family on another forum claims to eat only pemmican (seemingly raw, ie. care taken to keep fat rendering and meat dehydrating below 100 degrees) with wonderful results including reclaimed health.

The claim that they are rendering fat at or below 104F is pure nonsense.  If you were to order pure rendered beef tallow from US Wellness Meats (where we've been assured that the owner says he always renders his fat at 104F or below), you find that it won't even melt at this temperature.  Since rendering is a process of melting the fat out of the cellular structure and driving off the water, you can easily see it would be totally impossible.  There has also been some mention that the beef tallow ordered from US Wellness often has a "burnt" oder to it, and we are told that the remedy for this is to let the completed pemmican age in the open air until the burnt smell goes away - this observation and remedy come from the family that says they live on "raw" pemmican.  How could you possibly get a burnt smell from something that never went over the temperature of lukewarm water.

Another issue with rendering at low temperatures is the fact that the various fatty acids melt at different temperatures.  I believe that I read a post from a person in the know that stated that the most saturated fatty acids won't melt below 125F, and that it would require a temperature of at least 170F to have any chance of extracting the majority of the fatty acids from the cellular structure of the fat.  This means that any fat rendered below this temperature would not have the full spectrum of fatty acids and could cause nutritional deficiencies in the long term.  As I remember, he found little difference in the amount of damage done to the fatty acids as long as the temperature was kept at or below 250F.  Since one of the major qualities of pemmican is the ability to keep it for long duration without refrigeration, and this requires that all water be driven from the rendered fat, it is most efficient to render the fat at a temperature slightly above the boiling point of water.  

There is also much agonizing and handwringing over loss of enzymes.  Many tests have been run by Bea Beyer on maintaining enzyme integrity and the truth is that there was substantially no difference in enzyme activity between things dehydrated at 104F and 125F.  Things started to deteriorate rather rapidly once the temperature reached 130F for any length of time, but this also depended on the moisture content of the material.  Fully dehydrated items had much less damage than soggy moist items, so the real killer is high temp in the presence of moisture.

Since the fat must be rendered at a temperature above 170F just to maintain the complete fatty acid profile, this means that there is no way to keep the enzymes intact.  Infact, you don't want too, because active enzymes will cause the breakdown of the food in the presence of moisture and oxygen and this would destroy the keeping and nutritional qualities of the pemmican.

The lean meat is a different story.  Here we want to maintain as many enzymes as possible to help with digestion.  To achieve this we want to dry our meat below 130F and I usually try to keep my highest temperature at or below 120 just to be safe.  We protect the nutrition and enzymes from degrading over time by shredding the meat and then encasing the meat fibers in the rendered fat to keep out moisture and oxygen.  If we intend to keep the pemmican for more than a couple of weeks, it is also best to protect it from light, as light is an energy source and will break molecular bonds over time.  You see the result of this in the fading of colors in fabrics, photographs, and artwork etc.

Each element of pemmican is important and must be properly prepared for maximum nutrition and storage life.  The lean dry meat supplies the vitamins, minerals, protein, and enzymes necessary to good health and must be dehydrated at a temperature below 130F.  The fat carries the calories our bodies need for fuel and serves to coat and protect the lean meat from damage by oxygen and moisture and should be rendered at a temperature above the boiling point of water but below 250F.  Traditional pemmican was stored in hide bags that protected it from damage from light, and that completes the total package.

Making and storing pemmican in this way has proven itself over many centuries.  To believe that we will somehow significantly improve on this process without employing modern technology such as freeze drying or other bit of high tech magic is wasted effort as far as I'm concerned.

This is probably far more than you ever wanted to know, but others on this forum may have similar questions and concerns.

Lex
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 08:26:57 am by lex_rooker »

Offline wodgina

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2009, 08:36:00 am »
Pemmican is tasty because the meat is concentrated. The texture is like sawdust!
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William

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2009, 09:02:31 am »
I always dry the meat at 95°F, does not matter to me that it takes a day or even two days longer, so I'm satisfied that the important nutrients are truly raw.
Recently got some back fat, and the pemmican made from that tallow tastes better than the stuff I was making with tallow from kidney fat.

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2009, 09:47:04 pm »
Quote
This is probably far more than you ever wanted to know, but others on this forum may have similar questions and concerns.

Not at all, I love reading this stuff and greatly appreciate your patience and thorough response!!  Thank you!!

Offline phatdave

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2009, 08:53:31 pm »
Has anyone every tried pemmican with organ meat? it was mentioned above, but i wonder if anyone could share any experiences, and of any success or failure!

Also thank you Lex for such an informative post! Now i have everything i need to make some good stuff!

D

Offline yon yonson

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2009, 09:57:00 pm »
i haven't actually made pemmican with organ meats, but i plan on doing it pretty soon (well a mix of dried organs like heart and liver with dried jerky). i'll let you know how it goes. also, i've dried liver before and it actually worked out pretty well. it made it taste better and made it a lot easier to eat. need to get some heart now though

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2009, 09:30:14 am »
...This is probably far more than you ever wanted to know, but others on this forum may have similar questions and concerns.

Lex
Wow! After this and Lex's other posts and his pemmican guide, I think Lex may have demonstrated himself to be the world's foremost pemmican expert. :-)

I tried US Wellness' tallow alone and with meat some more, Lex, and it's not as strong-flavored as I initially thought (and I'm also rapidly getting used to it). I'm back to thinking that the very strong flavor of their pemmican comes from both the fat and the jerky. I made my second attempt at making jerky and fared much better this time. It tasted better even than yours did, but I think that's likely due my using less fat (I haven't completely adapted to eating tallow yet) and to my taste buds adapting more since I ate yours than anything. What I did differently:

> I made sure to THOROUGHLY dry the jerky, so that it breaks when twisted (that detail helped explain the required level of dryness a lot)
> I THOROUGHLY blenderized the jerky into very fine, tiny shreds (the blender is too weak to turn it into powder)
> I added the fat gradually, and stopped as soon as the pemmican reached an eye-appealing, juicy, brownie-like consistency (less fat than is generally recommended--again, because I haven't adapted completely to it yet)

I think the gradual adaptation approach has worked for me, and may work for other people who don't like grass-fed tallow at first. Even though I didn't like pemmican at first, it didn't taste powdery at all to me--it was more of a problem of a musky, beefy, gamey flavor and smell for me. I like gamey, but wasn't used to THAT strong a gamey taste. Adding the fat takes away any powderiness from the shredded jerky. The first time I tried US Wellness pemmican I nearly upchucked it back up and couldn't imagine how I'd ever get used to it. Now I sorta like my home-made pemmican. I wonder what the US Wellness would taste like to me now. Maybe I was too hard on them, or maybe mine really is that much better tasting--I'm not sure. I have adapted much faster than I expected.

The only animal fat I was initially able to eat raw is the creamy long-bone marrow fat, so pemmican fills an important transitional niche for me. I can also now handle the flavor and mouth feel of a little cold tallow (it was a huge turn-off at first--it's strange how the film it left in my mouth was at first disgusting and now is neutral--almost pleasant). Maybe some day I'll be able to eat raw suet and intramuscular fat, but I still gag on it at this point and have a little trouble digesting it. As with DelFuego, pemmican seems more digestible for me at this stage.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 09:39:50 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
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Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2009, 07:14:41 pm »

> I made sure to THOROUGHLY dry the jerky, so that it breaks when twisted (that detail helped explain the required level of dryness a lot)


Maybe some day I'll be able to eat raw suet and intramuscular fat, but I still gag on it at this point and have a little trouble digesting it. As with DelFuego, pemmican seems more digestible for me at this stage.

Agreed, thoroughly dried is the way.

I still wonder about the taste of the tallow, but then all I can get is grain-finished fat, and the hide fat tastes better to me than the kidney fat.

carnivore

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2009, 07:10:33 pm »
I have noticed that eating pemmican makes my teeth over-sensitive. To the point that drinking water (or breathing fresh air) hurts my teeth.

Anybody has experienced the same symptom, or have an idea of the reason (overproduction of HCL) ?

William

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 08:47:03 am »
For those who have not read it elsewhere, the word is that the correct ratio of weight of tallow to powdered jerky is 64% to 36%.
This gives us the recommended 80% calories from fat, and more (or adequate) energy.

Lack of energy has been a problem for me with the half-of-each pemmican.


Offline Roselene

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 08:03:05 pm »
    I know coconut oil is looked down on here because the inferiority in nutrition of vegetable derived fat, but I'm thinking of trying it.  The reason being is that it doesn't have to be heated.  I'm very leary about rendering tallow.  I'm thinking of making a pemmican by drying liver and mixing with the oil.  I suppose it would be too soft in Summer but a fairly decent once in a while snack in Wintertime.

    I want to thank everyone who wrote about their pemmican experiences.  I've never tried it, and reading everything you wrote is helping me decide to try.

William

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2009, 08:50:06 pm »
    I know coconut oil is looked down on here because the inferiority in nutrition of vegetable derived fat, but I'm thinking of trying it.  The reason being is that it doesn't have to be heated. 

You will regret it. Malnutrition is certain with coconut oil.

Pemmican made with tallow is proven good, and the endless drivel of fat-phobic Tyler/Geoff is best ignored.

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2009, 11:19:43 pm »
coconut oil has already been heated by the time you buy it

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2009, 12:13:27 am »
For those who have not read it elsewhere, the word is that the correct ratio of weight of tallow to powdered jerky is 64% to 36%.
This gives us the recommended 80% calories from fat, and more (or adequate) energy.

Lack of energy has been a problem for me with the half-of-each pemmican.

William,
What makes 64/36 any more "correct" than 50/50- or 45/65 for that matter?  Many of us find that 80% of calories is way to much and we do much better on 65% to 75% of calories as fat.  To think that there is some magic "correct" ratio of fat to lean is silly.  The Native Americans who made pemmican didn't have scales and other high tech stuff to achieve some perfect ratio.  They mixed the fat into the powdered lean until it wouldn't absorb any more.  The actual ratio varied all over the place. 

Also the natural fat content of raw meat varies considerably depending on the time of year and the amount of food available to the animal.  In the late winter/early spring animals would have been very lean.  In the late summer/early fall they would have had a high percentage of fat.

If it had to be so "scientific" none of us would be here today because our ancestors just ate meat and fat based on its availability until they were satified.  If they were short fat then they would start to crave it.  In other words, just like thirst, they let their bodies tell them what was correct.

The idea that 80% of calories as fat is somehow "perfect" is pure nonsense.

Lex

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2009, 12:23:59 am »
    I know coconut oil is looked down on here because the inferiority in nutrition of vegetable derived fat, but I'm thinking of trying it.  The reason being is that it doesn't have to be heated.  I'm very leery about rendering tallow.  I'm thinking of making a pemmican by drying liver and mixing with the oil.  I suppose it would be too soft in Summer but a fairly decent once in a while snack in Wintertime.

If you do this you will likely end up with severe nutritional deficiencies if you eat it for very long.  Coconut oil is just that - oil.  You need a highly saturated animal fat or you may as well just buy the 'nutrition bars' at your local supermarket - as there would be little difference.  To believe that coconut oil isn't heated or processed using solvents, and that this some how makes a 'non-food' (something we shouldn't be eating at all under any conditions) better than a heated good food is being a bit naive.

Also, pure liver is powerful stuff.  You can actually get ill eating just pure liver.  Pemmican should be made primarily from muscle meats.  Organ meats are not needed and should be kept to a very small percentage if they are used at all.

Lex

William

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2009, 03:53:01 am »
William,
What makes 64/36 any more "correct" than 50/50- or 45/65 for that matter? 

Lex

I ate it. All of it. Didn't think I would, because it tasted like tallow soup with mild jerky flavouring, but after it set I kept snacking on it. Odd, because I eat once/day.

This was made with the first and only grassfed beef fat->tallow acquired so far, maybe that's why it went down so well.
Anyway I trust my stomach more than theory, and I have more energy. YMMV, after all I'm older and sicker than anyone else here. AFAIK.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2009, 04:25:40 am »
I ate it. All of it. Didn't think I would, because it tasted like tallow soup with mild jerky flavouring, but after it set I kept snacking on it. Odd, because I eat once/day.

This was made with the first and only grassfed beef fat->tallow acquired so far, maybe that's why it went down so well.
Anyway I trust my stomach more than theory, and I have more energy. YMMV, after all I'm older and sicker than anyone else here. AFAIK.

William,
Because you made your pemmican a certain way and they ate it doesn't make is some magical combination.  I've been making and eating pemmican for many years with ratios of fat to lean that vary from 75/25 (almost a fat soup when warm) to 35/65 (rather dry and crumbly and probably would not keep well).  All are quite edible.  Jerky, which has very little fat is quite digestible as well and serves its own purpose.

Again, there is no correct ratio of fat to lean other than for the fat to fully soak into and coat all the lean to protect if from mositure and and oxygen.  If you like 64/36 then by all means make it that way, but that ratio is no more correct than 50/50 or any other ratio for that matter.  There is nothing magic about 50/50 either.  50/50 is convienent, easy to remember, and provides plenty of energy and so that is why I use this formula in my manual.  It is a good place to start and people are free to vary the ratio (as you have) to their own liking.

Lex

Offline wodgina

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2009, 05:29:26 am »
I was thinking, my cold pressed VCO must be heated because it never goes off. Tastes revolting and makes me really ill and has been sitting on my shelf for at least a year.

I've eaten huge amounts of liver in the past. Didn't get really ill though, my body just stopped absorbing it and it started to just go straight through me.

I recently ate pemmican exclusively for 3 days...didn't feel that great! I over ate, I'm guessing because it was so tasty my brain didn't know when to stop like it does with raw. On the third day all I could think about was going back to raw again which I did on day 4.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2009, 06:40:36 am »
I found that when I ate a substantial amount of coconut oil it also made me nauseous and gave me a feeling of malaise so that I had to lie down for a while. Since then, even small amounts of coconut oil make me nauseous, so I've given up on it. It also never tasted all that great to me for some reason, even though I like the taste of coconut flesh and water. Too much coconut milk also makes me sick, so there's something about coconut fat that apparently is hard for me to digest. No amount of tallow or pemmican has affected me negatively yet and the more I eat of it the more I like the taste and mouth feel (which is what Admiral Peary reported), despite having found it to be disgusting at first.

I find it unusual that the saturated fat from coconuts should be hard for me to digest while the saturated fat from animals is not. I've seen articles claiming that they are very similar in chemical composition. Any thoughts on this?

I agree with Lex that jerky is very digestible (at least for me), and it's great for cleaning teeth, though I find it less satisfying now that I'm hooked on pemmican and higher fat meats. I still do prefer lean meats when eating raw, undried meats, though. It's taking me longer to get used to eating raw, unrendered fat, though I'm hoping that by eating pemmican and melted or cooked animal fat that I'll eventually get used to raw, unprocessed animal fat.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 06:46:01 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Pemmican
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2009, 08:00:52 am »
I recently ate pemmican exclusively for 3 days...didn't feel that great! I over ate, I'm guessing because it was so tasty my brain didn't know when to stop like it does with raw. On the third day all I could think about was going back to raw again which I did on day 4.

Must be different than mine, the taste grew on me, but I would not call it tasty. Is the meat still raw?

Surprising that you didn't know when to stop, the fat makes it soon satisfying for me.

 

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