Author Topic: Animal Medicine Issue  (Read 31238 times)

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JaX

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2009, 07:38:54 pm »
Many healthy primitives ate a mostly carb based diet (tubers, fruit, vegetables), with some saturated fats. A good metabolism will keep blood glucose level constant even if the majority of calories come from carbohydrates.

but...
most people today have a wrecked carb metabolism and malabsorb sugars because of eating refined foods for years, so a high fat diet will in many cases be the best option.

Satya

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2009, 08:40:19 pm »
Case may be closed for you, but since none of the studies show any actual toxic effect from AGE's in the real world, and only discuss "theoretical" damage that free radicals "might" cause, the jury is still out for me.  Remember all those "1,000s of studies" that showed "strong links" or "connections" of cholesterol with heart disease - and they were all nonsense.  The bigger picture says carbs and high levels of blood glucose are far more damaging than AGEs and can be proven to cause undesired responses in the body.

For health, I'll take cooked meat and fat anyday over carbs of any kind.  You see, I'm far more concerned with getting the MACRO nutrients right, (eating fat and protein and eliminating most carbohydrates) than agonizing over relatively minor issues like freezing, dehydrating, or even cooking.  If you're eating crap to begin with, freezing, dehydrating, and cooking are totaly irrelevent.   Supposed toxins like AGEs and free radicals are a waste of time to worry over and divert attention away from the far more important issue of eating the correct foods in the first place.

Lex


This is one of the best posts in a long time here.  What I really respect about you, Lex, is that you speak in terms of your own experience.  Your ego is not getting in the way.  You are not out to 'prove' you are right about something.  You simply cut through the clutter and use some common sense.  You are such a rare breed in this regard.

For my health, I know that a diet containing some cooked foods is far better than an all raw diet containing carb foods.  While raw foods are important in the diet, I don't have to eat 100% raw to feel really great.  And besides, certain cooking methods are much less harmful than others - like braising and other liquid cooking methods.  Also, marinating a piece of meat and then grilling it will reduce the heterocyclic amines in foods by up to 90%.  Simmering bones to get the minerals and connective tissues out is very health-promoting for me personally.  I will continue to eat bone stocks. 

We have been cooking (250kya) longer than we have been eating Neolithic foods (10kya), after all.  Much longer.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 09:23:01 pm by Satya »

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2009, 10:58:15 pm »
For my health, I know that a diet containing some cooked foods is far better than an all raw diet containing carb foods.  While raw foods are important in the diet, I don't have to eat 100% raw to feel really great.  And besides, certain cooking methods are much less harmful than others - like braising and other liquid cooking methods.  Also, marinating a piece of meat and then grilling it will reduce the heterocyclic amines in foods by up to 90%.  Simmering bones to get the minerals and connective tissues out is very health-promoting for me personally.  I will continue to eat bone stocks.

We have been cooking (250kya) longer than we have been eating Neolithic foods (10kya), after all.  Much longer.

But isn't this forum all about promoting RAW Paleo?

And in my healing terminal illnesses sources, 100% raw is needed, not bone stocks.  The terribly sick will throw up cooked meats and cooked fats.  This is how I surmise that raw is best.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 11:05:31 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Satya

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2009, 11:09:01 pm »
But isn't this forum all about promoting RAW Paleo?

And in my healing terminal illnesses sources, 100% raw is needed, not bone stocks.  The terribly sick will throw up cooked meats and cooked fats.  This is how I surmise that raw is best.

Sure, but many people are eating cooked foods, even though they are on the forum.  I was not promoting cooking.  I was stating a fact that we have been cooking longer than we have been eating grains.  If you don't like me here, why don't you just delete my account?

Satya

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2009, 11:34:43 pm »
And not only that, I happen to be posting in "Hot Topics" and thus, non raw topics are okay.  But like I said, if you have an issue with me, remove me.  Or better yet, why don't you just leave me alone and post something of worth yourself?

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2009, 11:55:08 pm »
Sure, but many people are eating cooked foods, even though they are on the forum.  I was not promoting cooking.  I was stating a fact that we have been cooking longer than we have been eating grains.  If you don't like me here, why don't you just delete my account?

Hmm.... hot blooded reply... constant threats of deleting your account....

And not only that, I happen to be posting in "Hot Topics" and thus, non raw topics are okay.  But like I said, if you have an issue with me, remove me.  Or better yet, why don't you just leave me alone and post something of worth yourself?

hmmm... implying I have issues with you...  If you read my simple reply, I indicated nothing of the sort.  You are imagining reading in between the lines that are non-existent.

Take a cold paleo dip shower under the waterfall and smile.  ;D

--------

Here is a review of my previous reply which is ON TOPIC regarding animal medicine:

But isn't this forum all about promoting RAW Paleo?

And in my healing terminal illnesses sources, 100% raw is needed, not bone stocks.  The terribly sick will throw up cooked meats and cooked fats.  This is how I surmise that raw is best.
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Satya

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #81 on: May 20, 2009, 12:04:14 am »
Why don't you address Lex then, since he is the first one to have brought up cooked foods in this thread?  I suppose it's easier for you to bully a woman.  You don't impress me one bit.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #82 on: May 20, 2009, 04:09:32 am »
Sure, but many people are eating cooked foods, even though they are on the forum.  I was not promoting cooking. 

The vast majority of people on the various raw forums out there ,  are, however, not eating any cooked-foods for health(lol) but only consume them due to social pressure from SAD-eaters, if that.

And suggesting bone-broth does constitute promoting cooking, but you're quite right hot topics is the right forum for that sort of subject - it really doesn't matter whether mcdonald's hamburgers are being recommended or a raw vegan lifestyle or whatever, as long as it's all put here for discussion.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 04:38:23 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #83 on: May 20, 2009, 04:47:49 am »
Sure, but many people are eating cooked foods, even though they are on the forum.  I was not promoting cooking.  I was stating a fact that we have been cooking longer than we have been eating grains. 

Perhaps, but that doesn't by any means, imply that we are adapted to cooking. After all, wild animals take millions of years to change their diets to a radically different one, and those diets don't even involve changing to something as alien in nature as cooked foods. If you look at the beyondveg.com timeline, you'll also find that transitioning from 1 type of raw diet(eg:- fruitarian) to a mostly-meat one took our apemen ancestors vastly longer than 250,000 years, and those diets I'm referring to didn't even involve cooked, pre-250,000 years ago:-
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1c.shtml

 And our hominid/apemen ancestors have been eating raw plant foods in the Palaeolithic era for far, far longer than we've been eating cooked-foods(eg:-
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1514032.htm


"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #84 on: May 20, 2009, 04:56:07 am »
And besides, certain cooking methods are much less harmful than others - like braising and other liquid cooking methods.  Also, marinating a piece of meat and then grilling it will reduce the heterocyclic amines in foods by up to 90%. 

Some cooking methods are less harmful than others, but all are still harmful.  After all, enzymes are destroyed along with bacteria with cooking, and even mild cooking adds on a load of heat-created toxins.

The claim re marinating and then grilling a piece of meat reducing heterocyclic amines in foods by 90% is rather misleading. For one thing, the study referred to(:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/4031158/Marinating-steak-in-beer-or-wine-reduces-cancer-chemicals.html

)
 mentioned specifically that only 2-3 types of heterocyclic amines(of the 17  or so in total) were reduced, making it a bit pointless. Even worse, the study involved marinating in beer(recommended as more effective in wine). Now , alcohol is a toxin so recommending to remove toxins while marinating meats in another toxin, beer, is not  a good idea.

And, of course, other than the remaining types of heterocyclic amines, there are also advanced glycation endproducts(AGEs), nitrosamines(NSAs), PAHs(polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) etc. Now, naturally, reducing the cooking-temperature, cooking foods in water and other gimmicks can also help, to a very  limited extent, re reducing the overall  toxicity of cooked-foods, but not by enough to make any real , meaningful difference. Better to just stick to eating raw animal foods.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 04:52:45 pm by TylerDurden »
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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #85 on: May 20, 2009, 05:00:24 am »
Many healthy primitives ate a mostly carb based diet (tubers, fruit, vegetables), with some saturated fats. A good metabolism will keep blood glucose level constant even if the majority of calories come from carbohydrates.


I think you may be referring to the Kitavans. At least someone recently mentioned them doing the above type of diet.
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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #86 on: May 20, 2009, 05:28:22 am »
Case may be closed for you, but since none of the studies show any actual toxic effect from AGE's in the real world, and only discuss "theoretical" damage that free radicals "might" cause, the jury is still out for me.  Remember all those "1,000s of studies" that showed "strong links" or "connections" of cholesterol with heart disease - and they were all nonsense.  The bigger picture says carbs and high levels of blood glucose are far more damaging than AGEs and can be proven to cause undesired responses in the body.

The trouble is that the evidence re carbs is even less compelling than the evidence re cooked animal fats/heat-created toxins etc. The sheer numbers of papers re the latter prove my point whereas most of the data re carbs/blood-sugar seems to originate from Creationist websites such as biblelife.org, barry groves et al(I note that Barry groves made an excuse and fled the rawpaleodiet group because he was quite unable to effectively  counter the points we made re heat-created toxins in cooked-foods. And, yet, Barry is THE guru for the  various anti-carb theories out there.

As regards claims of statistics, that's very misleading. There are plenty of studies featuring heat-created toxins which involve  in vitro studies of the direct, very unhealthy effects of AGEs/advanced glycation end products on living (human or animal) cells:-


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9079706

(so , in other words, the chemical effect of AGEs on the human body is well understood)
then there are studies focusing on how there are direct connections between the amounts of AGEs in the body and the incidence of numerous age-related illnesses such as Alzheimer's:-

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T0G-3P69T2Y-19&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=65bfdac1fe363e31c57f1a16726d6d6f

Re cholesterol/saturated fat claims:- ironically, scientists have recently suggested that there is a much more likely explanation for the frequently-reported increased ill-health of people on diets consisting of high levels of cooked animal food. They have pointed out that all the studies focusing on the dangers of saturated fats, while they were correct in their results, they failed to realise that it was the heat-created toxins in the cooked-animal foods of the diets they studied which were the cause of the greatly-increased rates of illnesses:-

Another confounding issue may be the formation of exogenous (outside the body) advanced glycation endproducts (AGEs) and oxidation products generated during cooking, which it appears some of the studies have not controlled for. It has been suggested that, "given the prominence of this type of food in the human diet, the deleterious effects of high-(saturated)fat foods may be in part due to the high content in glycotoxins, above and beyond those due to oxidized fatty acid derivatives." The glycotoxins, as he called them, are more commonly called AGEs" :-

http://www.pnas.org/content/94/12/6474.long

Quote
For health, I'll take cooked meat and fat anyday over carbs of any kind.  You see, I'm far more concerned with getting the MACRO nutrients right, (eating fat and protein and eliminating most carbohydrates) than agonizing over relatively minor issues like freezing, dehydrating, or even cooking.  If you're eating crap to begin with, freezing, dehydrating, and cooking are totaly irrelevent.   Supposed toxins like AGEs and free radicals are a waste of time to worry over and divert attention away from the far more important issue of eating the correct foods in the first place.

Lex

The trouble is that the vast majority of Raw Animal Foodists have experiences, quite counter to yours. That is, they'll get nasty side-effects/detox(much like a hangover) , within 24 hours, from cheating and eating cooked animal fat(or cooked food in general)(ie crap) whereas if they eat a little raw organic fruit, there will be no such side-effects(often no side-effects, either, from eating even nonorganic fruit). Now, I don't doubt that the zero-carb minority are an exception. I remember myself experiencing awful issues with carbs if I went too VLC for extremely long periods(VLC, in this case, involving 1 piece of fruit every 2 weeks at most). This had nothing, however, to do with the carbs being "bad" in any way, it was simply that once I went VLC for long periods, my body became hopeless at handling more and more carbs(due to lack of the correct bacteria as the bacteria were starved for lack of carbs etc.). Of course, as soon as I readded carbs in quantity back into my diet, such side-effects disappeared completely and I was right as rain, again. So, carbs are not bad at all, it's just a question of whether you're doing zero-carb or not(or VLC for long periods). But, of course, much like with animal fat(re yours and mine experiences re this), it's not a good idea to splurge on carbs, either, everything in moderation.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 04:58:55 pm by TylerDurden »
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" Ron Paul.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #87 on: May 20, 2009, 06:34:34 am »
Why don't you address Lex then, since he is the first one to have brought up cooked foods in this thread?  I suppose it's easier for you to bully a woman.  You don't impress me one bit.

Oh now you bring up "bullying" and the "woman card" tsk tsk.   

Everyone else is having a nice cerebral time enjoying the hot thread. 

Cerebral arguments are bonding exercises.

Just stay on topic and let the animal medicine thread live on.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 06:40:32 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Animal Medicine Issue
« Reply #88 on: May 20, 2009, 05:07:14 pm »


I was referred to this passage by a RAFer I know:-


 here's a
> quote from the Summary of Holistic Cancer Therapy in "Overcoming
> Cancer" by Walter Last:
>
>
>
> "Furthermore, [in cancer] there is commonly a deterioration in the
> lipid (fat-related) composition of the cell walls that allows toxins
> to enter the cells, and prevents waste residue from being removed. The
> main cause of this deterioration is the habitual consumption of heated
> or oxidized fats, and a deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids as in fish
> oils and linseed oil [and, he should have added, in grassfed animal
> fat]."
>
taken from:-
http://www.health-science-spirit.com/cancer1-overview.html
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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