Author Topic: Journal of a carnivore  (Read 38913 times)

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William

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2009, 07:44:43 pm »
My account is also closed, even though the control freak could not have known who it was - untraceable email address and phony name, inactive.

Offline rawlion

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #76 on: November 16, 2009, 09:11:26 pm »
Add me to the banned list.

I think all raw paleos were moderated there...
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Offline Nicola

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #77 on: November 16, 2009, 09:18:04 pm »
Yeah my account appears to be canceled on ZIOH also


Andrew, you got mentioned on the "shout box" and never responded; I am shore this is all a misunderstanding and I do not see why people don't go the direct way and "ASK CHARLES TO UNCANCEL!!!"

All he wants is for you to do zerocarb; he could not give a  :o about raw or cooked - just know when to shut up; after all we do not no "it" all just because we eat raw!

Nicola

carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #78 on: November 16, 2009, 10:55:21 pm »
I don't understand why they have to be so draconian. I mean, technically, you believe in at least half of what they preach, that is the main ZC part. And even Stefansson's cited Inuit diet contained some raw animal food, and that's supposed to be their very  inspiration.

Charles believes that it is neither necessary to eat raw food nor to eat grassfed. This makes a huge difference with the paleo approach which emphasis wild/grassfed and varied food.
I wish him good luck with his cooked grainfed muscle beef only diet!

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #79 on: November 16, 2009, 11:15:39 pm »


Charles believes that it is neither necessary to eat raw food nor to eat grassfed. This makes a huge difference with the paleo approach which emphasis wild/grassfed and varied food.
I wish him good luck with his cooked grainfed muscle beef only diet!

No wonder they recommend cooked meat if they also recommend grainfed meat. Grainfed meat, judging from my own experience, tastes disgusting and/or bland when raw, depending on the type of food and quality thereof, so has to be cooked for taste reasons.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2009, 07:04:28 am »
Nicola is right. Charles doesn't ban people just because they're raw, else he would have banned her and me, and some of his moderators are raw eaters. He bans people who talk to much about raw and claim it's better than cooked.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2009, 12:06:47 pm »
He also searches the member list and bans those who register with an email address such as mailinator.com.

We could make a list of his reasons for banning; I just decided that he is nye kulturny.

Offline djr_81

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2009, 12:29:25 pm »
He bans people who talk to much about raw and claim it's better than cooked.

Like espousing the benefits of ZC on a VLC site with a different propaganda and getting booted for it... ;D
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carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2009, 03:51:35 pm »
Nicola is right. Charles doesn't ban people just because they're raw, else he would have banned her and me, and some of his moderators are raw eaters. He bans people who talk to much about raw and claim it's better than cooked.

I never talked about raw better than cooked on his forum. Actually after my first thread was locked, I did not write anything else...

Offline rawlion

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2009, 09:04:33 pm »
he is nye kulturny.

WOW... priam v iablochko!
It’s time to Eat Like An Animal!

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2009, 07:23:34 am »
I never talked about raw better than cooked on his forum. Actually after my first thread was locked, I did not write anything else...
OK, I meant in general. I don't know the reasons for specific cases, which we probably shouldn't get into here.

Back to the topic--Frederic and Yuri, what are your plans to address your current health issues other than sticking with raw ZC? I'm curious because of my own history of chronic kidney stones with UTIs and current somewhat denser urine on raw carnivore.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2009, 03:49:08 pm »
Back to the topic--Frederic and Yuri, what are your plans to address your current health issues other than sticking with raw ZC? I'm curious because of my own history of chronic kidney stones with UTIs and current somewhat denser urine on raw carnivore.

BACK TO BASIC
To eat paleo as much as possible : wild, varied, raw...To reintroduce carefully some fruits and vegetables, more seafood, organs, etc...
No more processing (rendering, drying, pemmican, etc.). To try to listen more to my feeling.

I find very difficult to balance myself on a ZC diet for now.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 04:00:42 pm by carnivore »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2009, 06:01:06 pm »
Maybe the kidney stones are due to the pemmican some raw zero-carbers eat a lot of. It makes sense as cooked ketogenic diets often lead to kidney-stones as side-effects.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

alphagruis

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2009, 07:28:56 pm »
Maybe the kidney stones are due to the pemmican some raw zero-carbers eat a lot of. It makes sense as cooked ketogenic diets often lead to kidney-stones as side-effects.

Unfortunately, we don't know for sure. The mechanisms by which kidney stones are formed are not understood. So we have to rely on experiment and trial and error.

In my opinion, the most remarkable experiment nature has yet done on our species with LC diets is the inuit one.The inuits thrived over many generations in (as far as we know) good health and shape on such a diet in spite of a particularly hostile environment for a species of tropical origin.

Yet it is clear that their diet

-was not ZC. They gathered apparently all the food of plant origin, they could, such as berries or seaweeds.
-was not based solely on meat and fat from a single or even a few terrestrial mammals.
-included a large amount of seafood and organs and the content of organs. The fat in particular was largely blubber.

With respect to modern ZC diets based on pemmican the apparently proven and safe inuit diet was actually much more varied and these differences or "details" might well be quite important. 

William

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2009, 11:14:42 pm »

In my opinion, the most remarkable experiment nature has yet done on our species with LC diets is the inuit one.The Inuit thrived over many generations in (as far as we know) good health and shape on such a diet in spite of a particularly hostile environment for a species of tropical origin.

Yet it is clear that their diet

-was not ZC. They gathered apparently all the food of plant origin, they could, such as berries or seaweeds.
-was not based solely on meat and fat from a single or even a few terrestrial mammals.
-included a large amount of seafood and organs and the content of organs. The fat in particular was largely blubber.

With respect to modern ZC diets based on pemmican the apparently proven and safe Inuit diet was actually much more varied and these differences or "details" might well be quite important. 

The Inuit I and Stefansson knew live in the Western Canadian Arctic, where there are few if any berries, and no seaweeds eaten AFAIK.
Their diet was of both terrestrial and marine mammals, mostly marine; they caught fish to feed their dogs and probably only ate fish when they had nothing else to eat.
They had rendered fat all winter for light and possibly food, and there was nothing to stop them from eating it, since TD was not there. ;)
The only reference to organs I remember was Stefansson's remark that they ate the flesh of fish, and gave the rest to the dogs.

My impression was that paleoman and Arctic peoples may have used plants/veggies for medicinal purposes, as cats and other obligate carnivores do, but not otherwise as they are not food and in other than tiny amounts always do harm.

Re kidney stones/calcification - IIRC calcium is always deposited in the bones and teeth unless something makes calcium metabolism go wrong, such as pasteurized/homogenized dairy. I vaguely remember having read of something else that could cause calcium deposits in flesh, but can't remember what it is.
Having been deposited in flesh/organs, it seems that it persists for a long time unless something unusual is done to remove it - Hulda Clark's liver or kidney flush is one, IIRC there was a special kind of tea used in British medicine which also dissolved stones.

There are no reports of traditional pemmican-eaters (sub-Arctic peoples) ever having kidney stones.

alphagruis

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2009, 03:54:44 am »
William,

The fat used by inuits was mostly blubber AFAIK and this fat contains high amounts of polyunsaturated omega 3 fatty acids (PUFAs) so that it melts actually at quite low temperatures, say less than 21°C (70°F) or so.

http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca/rparticle/AbstractTemplateServlet?calyLang=eng&journal=cjz&volume=57&year=1979&issue=6&msno=z79-161

 So I guess that even if TD had been there he might perhaps not have stopped them from rendering it and eating it. :)

Fat from terrestrial mammals such as beef fat to make tallow contains less PUFAs and also melts at higher temperatures. Maybe these differences are of relevance.

As to pemmican my knowledge is limited, yet AFAIK berries were traditionally mixed in. Don't you think that this practice might be of some relevance too?  

 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 04:11:38 am by alphagruis »

William

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2009, 07:01:56 am »
William,

The fat used by inuits was mostly blubber AFAIK and this fat contains high amounts of polyunsaturated omega 3 fatty acids (PUFAs) so that it melts actually at quite low temperatures, say less than 21°C (70°F) or so.

From Wikipedia: Blubber is a thick layer of vascularized fat found under the skin of all cetaceans, pinnipeds and sirenians.

For a few men in a flimsy skin boat with short spears to successfully take a beluga must have been as dangerous as taking a polar bear, and I find it difficult to believe that it was a frequent event, so my guess is that the fat or tallow used by Inuit was mostly seal in winter and caribou in late summer. Maybe walrus too, but I've read nothing of how they were hunted.
IIRC the fat under the skin of a beluga is called muktuk, and a delicacy, so not common.

There's a photo of a beluga on an Arctic beach taken and posted by an Inuk member of canadiangunnutz.com named Otokiak - I could not find the thread, but here's one of a bear hunt:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=402753&page=6





Quote
Fat from terrestrial mammals such as beef fat to make tallow contains less PUFAs and also melts at higher temperatures. Maybe these differences are of relevance.

Maybe so, being as we are not marine mammals, the caribou fat might be more appropriate for our needs in a cold climate.

Quote
As to pemmican my knowledge is limited, yet AFAIK berries were traditionally mixed in. Don't you think that this practice might be of some relevance too? 


The historian's article on pemmican made for the Hudson's Bay Co. said that they put dried berries in pemmican only for that made for white men, thinking that white men could not live on only fat meat, but needed some carbohydrates.

There are still people who believe that, I think it depends on things still unknown.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2009, 11:06:36 am »
Water consumption may be a more important factor. I found two sources mentioning Inuits drinking large quantities of water. Here's one (unfortunately I lost the other one when the power went out):

The Inuit drink "large quantities of water (5 to 6 litres per day), characteristic of the protein-rich diet that triggers renal elimination of the products of catabolism." Consuming the Inedible: Neglected Dimensions by Jeremy MacClancy, p. 123

That's about 10.5 to 12.5 pints of water a day!  :o I'm not drinking close to that much yet. That could explain my somewhat denser and bubbly urine.

Lex mentioned that he had intentionally cut back on fluid intake because of his BPH, and mine happened unconsciously when I switched to VLC, and then even more so on raw as my thirst decreased. There's also the example of wolves and other carnivores who drink copious amounts of water after feasting on flesh.

I've wondered about the berries in pemmican too. I've read other sources that say Native Americans put berries in it before the arrival of Europeans, though I didn't save them, unfortunately. Maybe a little bit of carbs gives a margin of safety against potential excessive catabolic products and their side effects in times when water becomes scarce? Water is readily available now, however, so that would be less of a factor today.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 12:38:58 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

alphagruis

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2009, 06:20:16 pm »
Water consumption may be a more important factor. I found two sources mentioning Inuits drinking large quantities of water. Here's one (unfortunately I lost the other one when the power went out):

The Inuit drink "large quantities of water (5 to 6 litres per day), characteristic of the protein-rich diet that triggers renal elimination of the products of catabolism." Consuming the Inedible: Neglected Dimensions by Jeremy MacClancy, p. 123

That's about 10.5 to 12.5 pints of water a day!  :o I'm not drinking close to that much yet. That could explain my somewhat denser and bubbly urine.


5 to 6 liters a day is a very very large amount indeed. When I had my recurrent kidney stone problem doctors told me to drink at least 3 liters per day. I did it for about 6 months and I had really to force myself to do it. Very unpleasant and uncomfortable. It stressed tremendously my kidneys.

Moreover it did not work at all. The stones formed exactly at the same rate as before as evidenced by the scans. Admittedly I was not on a fat and meat diet but on a standard one, yet I'm quite sceptical, Phil. Hope for you and Lex that I'm mistaken.

William

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2009, 10:07:47 pm »
I drink almost 4 litres/day, and it's because ~half of it is coffee.
Beginning ZC, I felt an urge to follow a cup of coffee with at least one cup of water, but evidently something in the body changed so that that is no longer needed.
Never had dark piss except when wintering in the Arctic, and then it must have been that the body was conserving water because the climate is so dry. This might explain why the Inuit drank so much water.
 
Please note that this is home-roasted/fresh organic Colombian - all others tested as either dangerous or unknown side effects.

Guess my kidneys became more efficient on ZC?

alphagruis

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2009, 03:03:43 am »
From Wikipedia: Blubber is a thick layer of vascularized fat found under the skin of all cetaceans, pinnipeds and sirenians.

For a few men in a flimsy skin boat with short spears to successfully take a beluga must have been as dangerous as taking a polar bear, and I find it difficult to believe that it was a frequent event, so my guess is that the fat or tallow used by Inuit was mostly seal in winter and caribou in late summer. Maybe walrus too, but I've read nothing of how they were hunted.
IIRC the fat under the skin of a beluga is called muktuk, and a delicacy, so not common.


After a little bit research it appears that seal, walrus and beluga blubber is actually quite similar in fat composition, i. e. particularly rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs), antioxidants and selenium. Polar bear fat is also very close in composition probably because he feeds on seal too. Blubber that wraps and protects the whole animal should not be too stiff at the cold arctic waters temperature, so that the animal can move easily and this implies high PUFAs
Caribou or deer fat is similar to grassfed beef and contains only about 3 % PUFA's and can be much stiffer. There is also much less fat on terrestrial mammals as compared to marine ones.

One might thus expect and it seems indeed that the inuits priced marine mammals more than terrestrial ones even if hunting them was certainly more dangerous in particular, as you point it out William, for belugas.
 




alphagruis

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2009, 04:38:36 pm »
I drink almost 4 litres/day, and it's because ~half of it is coffee.
Beginning ZC, I felt an urge to follow a cup of coffee with at least one cup of water, but evidently something in the body changed so that that is no longer needed.
Never had dark piss except when wintering in the Arctic, and then it must have been that the body was conserving water because the climate is so dry. This might explain why the Inuit drank so much water.
 
Please note that this is home-roasted/fresh organic Colombian - all others tested as either dangerous or unknown side effects.

Guess my kidneys became more efficient on ZC?


Yes I think so. Kidneys can't function properly on a SAD diet, but this remains largely unnoticed because it takes many tens of years to show up as clearcut symptoms.

Nevertheless, I can't drink that much water (4 liters). I'm rather about 1.5 liters / day or less. IMO unless in particularly dry climates and/or when thirst urges us to do so I feel that we don't usually have to drink that much. I don't believe that paleoman (or any wild animal) drank water if he was not thirsty.

carnivore

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Re: Journal of a carnivore : Swordfish !
« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2010, 04:45:38 am »
I had swordfish this evening : one of the best fish I know. Wonderful fatty sashimi !!!

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2010, 05:09:50 am »
Raw swordfish is my favourite seafood.
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Offline djr_81

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Re: Journal of a carnivore
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2010, 05:33:31 am »
I might have to look for swordfish myself next time I'm at the store. It looks quite tasty. :)
I just ate 6 4" smelts and everything seems to be sitting fine. It's great to have the whole vista of seafood as an option and not be relegated to just land animals. ;D
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