Author Topic: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.  (Read 39458 times)

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Offline protoject

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Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« on: August 01, 2009, 05:51:13 am »
I just wanted to leave a quick comment on here about raw eggs. I've eaten a lot of raw eggs during certain periods. I've also read about egg white protein being barely digestible, as well as the whites containing anti nutrients such as avidin, and more if I'm not mistaken. It's also likely that a lot of people may be allergic to the whites.

I won't say what's right for you but when I've eaten eggs with the whites, my body never gave any sign of digesting them, in fact they would pretty much almost fall out of my bum at any given moment. I also found that the whites kind of made me feel sick.

But then I started eating only the yolks alone, and I find that I feel a lot better doing that. So if you're having problems with raw eggs, maybe the yolks alone will work for you too.

I'd like anyone's opinion , knowledge or experience with whites and yolks.


Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2009, 06:10:51 am »
You're right, the white and the yoke should be ingested separately and if you do not like the white, spit it. For the following eggs, separate the white in a glass or a cup (to give to someone such as me who likes it !) and ingest the yoke only.

Many people don’t like and therefore cannot digest well or metabolize the whites (it’s the case of my former girlfriend : she kept the whites for me  :-*). Some people like, digest and apparently metabolize both well .

Cheers
Francois
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 06:16:42 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2009, 06:20:51 am »
I eat both white and yolk.
My wife eats only yolk.
My 2 boys eat only yolk.
My little girl eats both white and yolk.
I get fertilized duck eggs every now and then.
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Offline RawZi

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2009, 08:26:15 am »
    When I started eating RAF, I couldn't stand egg  -v whites, so I gave them to a

neighbor.  Months in, I was able to eat eggs whole no problem.  Later a friend was giving me

her whites; because it made no difference to me.  Presently it's very rare that I eat eggs at all.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2009, 09:20:16 am »
You're right, the white and the yoke should be ingested separately ...
I had read the opposite advice: that if you're going to eat egg whites, which contain the biotin-depleting avidin, make sure you also eat the yolks, which are rich in biotin and allegedly contain more than enough biotin to offset the avidin (which is something that vegetarians and vegans--the main critics of eggs--conveniently fail to reveal). Someone here also claimed that fertilized eggs are better and it certainly seems plausible. Aren't fertilized eggs basically baby birds, roughly speaking? I don't understand why they should be considered harmful to someone who occasionally eats birds. Should I avoid eating ANY birds?

For those, like Lex, who say that eggs are small and hard to come by in the wild, I have a few questions: 1) Weren't ocean fish and sea mammals rarely eaten by most Stone Agers (as the vast majority lived inland, yes?), yet the coastal Inuit thrived on these foods. So being less commonly eaten doesn't seem to be a reason to automatically exclude a food, though I agree it does raise questions. 2) I've read that bird eggs are eaten by rats and chimps. If rats and chimps can manage to get some, wouldn't it have been even easier for humans to do so? 3) I have seen entire islands completely covered with birds' nests. Wildlife was more plentiful in the past, so perhaps it wasn't as hard to get birds eggs in the spring and early summer laying season as one might think? In general I've found when I've researched questions like this, that early humans and even less primates had more ability to obtain foods than people tend to give them credit for (the misguided myths of the "dumb, brute savage" and "unthinking, mimicking chimp" are still widely held).

I haven't had any noticeable negative reactions to eggs myself, though they could perhaps be too subtle for me to notice and I do know that they are widely cited as a highly allergenic food. I sometimes eat raw quail, chicken and duck eggs because they are a quick, convenient and tasty ZC (with just traces of carbs) food for me. So if it turns out they aren't harming my health I'd rather keep eating them. I try to keep the amount I eat down, however, as they are a less optimal food than the raw meat/fat/organs of bigger animals.

Another good bit of info would be if anyone here still has reactions to eggs after months or years of eating nothing but meat, fats and organs.

Also, I'm sorry, but I cannot imagine Stone Agers separating out whites and yolks and discarding one or the other or ingesting them separately. It doesn't seem instinctive to me. I don't think that Stone Agers had much in the way of dietary rules other than simple stuff like, "Don't eat that, son--it tastes nasty and will make you sick," or "That is good to eat if you get the runs, but it's not good as a regular food," or "Auroch fat is good medicine," etc.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 09:32:37 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2009, 07:29:21 pm »
Egg whites are fine to consume IF the eggs are fertilised(means much lower avidin levels)
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2009, 09:12:18 pm »
I had read the opposite advice: that if you're going to eat egg whites, which contain the biotin-depleting avidin, make sure you also eat the yolks, which are rich in biotin and allegedly contain more than enough biotin to offset the avidin (which is something that vegetarians and vegans--the main critics of eggs--conveniently fail to reveal).

I mean, when you break a small hole in an egg's shell, the white comes out first. You can drink it if you like, reject it if you don't like it,  and subsequently eat the yolk. Then you proceed the same way with the next egg. I don’t know anyone eating only the whites and rejecting the yolks, but the opposite is quite frequent.


Also, I'm sorry, but I cannot imagine Stone Agers separating out whites and yolks and discarding one or the other or ingesting them separately. It doesn't seem instinctive to me. I don't think that Stone Agers had much in the way of dietary rules other than simple stuff like, "Don't eat that, son--it tastes nasty and will make you sick," or "That is good to eat if you get the runs, but it's not good as a regular food," or "Auroch fat is good medicine," etc.

Dogs are able to separate the whites and the yolks and choose instinctively the part they like or both. If dogs and babies can do that (my small cat also drinks often the white first !), why Stone Agers wouldn’t be able to reject the white if they didn’t like it ? It’s absolutely opposed to a dietary rule, it’s just a matter of instinctively avoiding ingestion of something you personally don’t like. You do not have to tell an animal how something tastes. There’s no other rule than “what smells and tastes good is good for you”. As I already mentioned it doesn’t work with things artificial, processed, mixed and heated over 40°C. By the way, a whole sequence of process is needed to get milk from an other animal specie or a bowl of grain.

Quote
For those, like Lex, who say that eggs are small and hard to come by in the wild, I have a few questions: 1) Weren't ocean fish and sea mammals rarely eaten by most Stone Agers (as the vast majority lived inland, yes?), yet the coastal Inuit thrived on these foods. So being less commonly eaten doesn't seem to be a reason to automatically exclude a food, though I agree it does raise questions. 2) I've read that bird eggs are eaten by rats and chimps. If rats and chimps can manage to get some, wouldn't it have been even easier for humans to do so? 3) I have seen entire islands completely covered with birds' nests. Wildlife was more plentiful in the past, so perhaps it wasn't as hard to get birds eggs in the spring and early summer laying season as one might think? In general I've found when I've researched questions like this, that early humans and even less primates had more ability to obtain foods than people tend to give them credit for (the misguided myths of the "dumb, brute savage" and "unthinking, mimicking chimp" are still widely held).

I couldn’t agree more. There was also for example plentiful of easily accessible sea turtles eggs (an absolute delight), swans eggs and other extinct or almost extinct animals. Like all wildlife, shellfish stock has been plundered: it was really abundant in the past. The same fate is now given to the ocean fish stock and if goes on like that with an ever expanding population of “homo culinaris”, there’ll be soon nothing left to eat.   

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I try to keep the amount (of eggs) I eat down, however, as they are a less optimal food than the raw meat/fat/organs of bigger animals.

How do you know that ? How do you define the concept of “optimal food” ? Don’t you think that a food can be optimal for someone at a given moment and non optimal at another time – or for someone else ?

Cheers
Francois
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 03:36:18 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline van

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 12:17:30 am »
great points.  Eggs are seasonal though.  So in any fashion they would have come by them only in parts of the year.  But more importantly is that fact that eggs for us now come from birds that eat grain.  Even free range birds mostly eat grain, and not very healthy grain at that, for chicken feed is usually cracked, old, rancid, inorganic, highly void of minerals and omega threes like insects and green plants are, which is there natural diet.  My thought is that the grain fed produced egg can't be much more than the food the bird ate. 

Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 05:59:33 am »
I have now my own hens, ducks and gooses on a large pasture area with fruits trees and a pond fed by a spring. I add just a little bit of organic sorghum and occasionally melons seeds or other raw leftovers. 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2009, 07:19:11 am »
...the white and the yoke should be ingested separately and if you do not like the white, spit it. For the following eggs, separate the white in a glass or a cup....

I mean, when you break a small hole in an egg's shell, the white comes out first. You can drink it if you like, reject it if you don't like it,  and subsequent eat the yoke. Then you proceed the same way with the next egg. I don’t know anyone eating only the whites and rejecting the yokes, but the opposite is quite frequent.
More people nowadays in the US unfortunately discard the yolks and use just the whites, for cooking purposes as well as supposed "health" reasons--how ironic. There are even frozen egg-whites and egg white powders that do this for you. A friend of mine used to eat only the whites and followed other misguided conventional health advice. He developed lethal leukemia.

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Dogs are able to separate the whites and the yokes and choose instinctively the part they like or both.
Interesting. I don't have a pet or a child, but in all the posts I've seen about people feeding their dogs or cats entire raw eggs they said they ate everything, shell and all, so maybe this is more common among pets than eating only white or yolk? Here are some examples from the PaleoFood forum:
> "My dog eats [eggs] raw, including the shell."
> "...what you do is let him roll the eggs around on the floor or ground until they crack. Then he'll figure out the good stuff is inside, bite it open, and lick up all the goodie, and then crunch up the shell like a Dorito."

What are the purported reasons or benefits why I should eat eggs like your cat--first the white, then the yolk, then the next white, then the next yolk, and so on (or vice-versa)?

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If dogs and babies can do that (my small cat also drinks often the white first !), why Stone Agers wouldn’t be able to reject the white if they didn’t like it ? It’s absolutely opposed to a dietary rule, it’s just a matter of instinctively avoiding ingestion of something you personally don’t like.
I like both the egg yolk and white and my instinct, taste, mouth-feel and hunger tell me to eat the whole thing at once. I find on ZC that my appetite and digestion have improved and I come closer to "wolfing" my food down (I do chew it, but I am able to eat and digest it rather rapidly). I don't feel an urge to spend time separating little things like egg contents apart or sucking first one part, then another.

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You do not have to tell an animal how something tastes. There’s no other rule than “what smells and tastes good is good for you”. As I already mentioned it doesn’t work with things artificial, processed, mixed and heated over 40°C.
Right, that sounds like two rules: 1) eat “what smells and tastes good is good for you” and 2) don't eat anything  artificial, processed, mixed, or heated over 40°C (and the second rule could be considered four rules if I was being picky ;) ). Apparently, another Instincto rule is that it's OK to eat some foods that were inedible and/or unavailable during the Stone Age, like domesticated bananas, as long as they are part of a Stone Age category of foods (like fruits). I used to think this was an OK assumption to follow, but I question it now (as regards what works for me).

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By the way, a whole sequence of process is needed to get milk from an other animal specie or a bowl of grain.
Yep

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How do you know that ? How do you define the concept of “optimal food” ?
Basically, what I do well on. I had a similar experience as Lex. I didn't do well eating what my parents or tastes told me to eat and what the doctors and "experts" were telling me and doing for me didn't help much, so I did my own research, found that much of the raw science substantially disagreed with conventional medicine, nutrition and the popular media. My research provided clues as to what would be optimal. I also asked a lot of questions, like I am of you now. I tested the claims that made the most sense and could withstand logical questioning and investigation and found what I did well on. Because of all the artificial and processed junk in the world that overrides our instincts, we can no longer rely on instinct alone to determine what foods to eat, as you discussed above, and have to rely also on our brains.

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Don’t you think that a food can be optimal for someone at a given moment and non optimal at another time – or for someone else ?
Yes. I don't concern myself too much about what other people are eating beyond close friends and relatives, except in fleshing out my own thinking and advancing my own learning. As a matter of fact, if you could change your diet to grains, dairy, legumes, sweeteners and additives, that might help keep the cost of my meat/fat/organs down (just kidding ;) or am I?  :o ).

Eggs are seasonal though.  So in any fashion they would have come by them only in parts of the year.  But more importantly is that fact that eggs for us now come from birds that eat grain.
Yes, these points make more intuitive sense to me than separating whites and yolks, and, yes, these are reasons why I limit the amount of eggs I eat and am trying to keep enough easy-to-eat meat/fat/organs on hand that I won't need the convenience of eggs as much. Because our foods are changed and adulterated in ways like this, we can no longer rely on instinct alone, unfortunately, and have to also rely on our brains.

Some people cheat with other foods that are not 100% Paleo like like butter or kefir. My cheats at this point in my transition are eating eggs year-round, teas, some olive oil, some light cooking of certain meats/fish, and tallow/pemmican. I doubt I'll ever be able to be 100% "pure," if that's even possible in the modern world. My objective is to maximize my health and well being rather than to hold to some level of purity for its own sake. For example, if I stop drinking tea completely it will be because there is a plausible reason for doing so (antinutrients) and because I do better when I do (possibly avoid occasional heartburn)--not just because tea is heated. I believe that rules should serve me, rather than that I should serve rules. If becoming more pure makes sense, helps my health and well being, and is practicable, then I'll do it. One problem I face is that I live in a tiny urban apartment without cellar or pantry storage and a tiny fridge, so it is more difficult for me to be pure than many people.

BTW, I don't want to come across as too critical of Instincto, as it is very close to my own approach, so I'll reiterate that it is far superior to SAD and correct on a lot of things, based on my own experience and research. Excellent posts, I'm learning quite a bit.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2009, 04:39:56 pm »
I've seen about people feeding their dogs or cats entire raw eggs they said they ate everything, shell and all, so maybe this is more common among pets than eating only white or yolk? Here are some examples from the PaleoFood forum:
> "My dog eats [eggs] raw, including the shell."
> "...what you do is let him roll the eggs around on the floor or ground until they crack. Then he'll figure out the good stuff is inside, bite it open, and lick up all the goodie, and then crunch up the shell like a Dorito."

We can also eat the shell or some of it if we like it ! Apparently there are different dogs, with different tastes, different needs and different behaviors... just like different humans !

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What are the purported reasons or benefits why I should eat eggs like your cat--first the white, then the yolk, then the next white, then the next yolk, and so on (or vice-versa)?
I like both the egg yolk and white and my instinct, taste, mouth-feel and hunger tell me to eat the whole thing at once. I find on ZC that my appetite and digestion have improved and I come closer to "wolfing" my food down (I do chew it, but I am able to eat and digest it rather rapidly). I don't feel an urge to spend time separating little things like egg contents apart or sucking first one part, then another.

It seems to me that most mammals choose carefully what they eat, often selecting a part and leaving the rest. Of course, if we like both whites and yolks (and perhaps shells also !) we can eat entire eggs at once ! I suppose we would do it in case of extreme hunger. But eating each part separately allows us to “fine tune” and adjust our intakes closer to our body needs. For example, one may eat 4 whites and 7 yolks, plus perhaps a little bit of shell.

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Right, that sounds like two rules: 1) eat “what smells and tastes good is good for you” and 2) don't eat anything  artificial, processed, mixed, or heated over 40°C (and the second rule could be considered four rules if I was being picky ;) ).

OK  Phill ! In an environment 100% natural only rule 1 applies. Rule 2 becomes necessary when new stuff and processes that haven’t been present long enough (at least some hundreds thousands years probably) in the environment in which our ancestors evolved are added.   

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Apparently, another Instincto rule is that it's OK to eat some foods that were inedible and/or unavailable during the Stone Age, like domesticated bananas, as long as they are part of a Stone Age category of foods (like fruits). I used to think this was an OK assumption to follow, but I question it now (as regards what works for me).

I agree that must be questioned. (By the way, everything should be questioned to satisfy Descartes rule of methodical doubt – which is a fundamental pillar of the scientific method.) At least we should be cautious with food like bananas, as well as all stuff that has been subject to intensive artificial selection, and always prefer the wildest available varieties. This applies to meat as well.

Quote
Basically, what I do well on. I had a similar experience as Lex. I didn't do well eating what my parents or tastes told me to eat and what the doctors and "experts" were telling me and doing for me didn't help much, so I did my own research, found that much of the raw science substantially disagreed with conventional medicine, nutrition and the popular media. My research provided clues as to what would be optimal. I also asked a lot of questions, like I am of you now. I tested the claims that made the most sense and could withstand logical questioning and investigation and found what I did well on. Because of all the artificial and processed junk in the world that overrides our instincts, we can no longer rely on instinct alone to determine what foods to eat, as you discussed above, and have to rely also on our brains.

Yes, sound approach – which is similar to mine.

I would add that it can be sometimes misleading to base one’s conclusions on short term observations. For example, a cup of coffee can make you feel better for a while and conversely a raw wild food that you liked may trigger an uncomfortable detoxination process (beneficial in the end, but not appearing so at first sight). These facts complicate our investigations quite a lot and it is often difficult to establish clearly what would be our “optimal food”. 

Quote
Yes. I don't concern myself too much about what other people are eating beyond close friends and relatives, except in fleshing out my own thinking and advancing my own learning. As a matter of fact, if you could change your diet to grains, dairy, legumes, sweeteners and additives, that might help keep the cost of my meat/fat/organs down (just kidding ;) or am I?  :o ).

I don’t know, really. Agriculture is probably the greatest environmental nuisance on Earth; by buying its products we contribute to the degradation of our living conditions.

Quote
Yes, these points make more intuitive sense to me than separating whites and yolks, and, yes, these are reasons why I limit the amount of eggs I eat and am trying to keep enough easy-to-eat meat/fat/organs on hand that I won't need the convenience of eggs as much. Because our foods are changed and adulterated in ways like this, we can no longer rely on instinct alone, unfortunately, and have to also rely on our brains.

Sure. Eggs satisfying our requirements are not available all year round and therefore the period in which we can eat good enough eggs is naturally limited. 

Quote
Some people cheat with other foods that are not 100% Paleo like like butter or kefir. My cheats at this point in my transition are eating eggs year-round, teas, some olive oil, some light cooking of certain meats/fish, and tallow/pemmican. I doubt I'll ever be able to be 100% "pure," if that's even possible in the modern world. My objective is to maximize my health and well being rather than to hold to some level of purity for its own sake. For example, if I stop drinking tea completely it will be because there is a plausible reason for doing so (antinutrients) and because I do better when I do (possibly avoid occasional heartburn)--not just because tea is heated. I believe that rules should serve me, rather than that I should serve rules. If becoming more pure makes sense, helps my health and well being, and is practicable, then I'll do it. One problem I face is that I live in a tiny urban apartment without cellar or pantry storage and a tiny fridge, so it is more difficult for me to be pure than many people.

Throw away your damned cooker, it’ll make more room in your apartment – perhaps useful to bring in a bigger fridge ! Tea is very similar to coffee (example I mentioned above) and cooking, even light or perhaps even more so, is harmful and only generate entropy >D. You might try raw, unmixed tea leaves and check how it tastes. 

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BTW, I don't want to come across as too critical of Instincto, as it is very close to my own approach, so I'll reiterate that it is far superior to SAD and correct on a lot of things, based on my own experience and research. Excellent posts, I'm learning quite a bit.

Thanks Phill. No problem, intelligent critics such as yours are constructive and very much welcome.

Cheers
Francois
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 03:38:40 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 12:41:36 am »
...But eating each part separately allows us to “fine tune” and adjust our intakes closer to our body needs. For example, one may eat 4 whites and 7 yokes, plus perhaps a little bit of shell.

I see, so the hypothesis is that by paying attention to fine taste preferences one can more finely optimize one's nutrients. My current preference is not toward that level of detail, but I shall keep it in mind. 

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I agree that must be questioned. (By the way, everything should be questioned to satisfy Descartes rule of methodical doubt – which is a fundamental pillar of the scientific method.) At least we should be cautious with food like bananas, as well as all stuff that has been subject to intensive artificial selection, and always prefer the wildest available varieties. This applies to meat as well. ....

I would add that it can be sometimes misleading to base one’s conclusions on short term observations. For example, a cup of coffee can make you feel better for a while and conversely a raw wild food that you liked may trigger an uncomfortable detoxination process (beneficial in the end, but not appearing so at first sight). These facts complicate our investigations quite a lot and it is often difficult to establish clearly what would be our “optimal food”.
Yes, well said.

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I don’t know, really. Agriculture is probably the greatest environmental nuisance on Earth; by buying its products we contribute to the degradation of our living conditions.
Yes, it is quite a quandary and a seemingly insolvable problem, at least in our lifetimes. Jared Diamond said that the adoption of agriculture was the biggest catastrophe in human history and I suspect that he's right. It's another reason I am trying to eat more grass-fed and less grain-fed. Somehow humanity as a whole must start turning back the clock. But how do so?

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Throw away your damned cooker, it’ll make more room in your apartment – perhaps useful to bring in a bigger fridge !
You mean the oven? I don't think my landlord would care for that! :D I do plan on buying a freezer. Lex has advised me on this. I know that some people don't approve of freezing, but I don't have anywhere to hang meat to dry and age, or to smoke meats, so freezing seems to be the best way for an apartment dweller to preserve and store economical bulk quantities of grass-fed meats, fats and organs.

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Tea is very similar to coffee (example I mentioned above) and cooking, even light or perhaps even more so, is harmful and only generate entropy >D.
I suspect you're right, as I noticed recently that too much unsweetened iced pekoe tea--whether green or black, crap!--gives me heartburn. What a bummer. What is in it that could cause that? Do you have any research on the harmful components (antinutrients) or effects of teas?

Tea drinking is part of my Irish-American culture, so this is a bit more painful to give up than most foods. Wine is associated with French culture. Do you drink wine or mead at all?

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...intelligent critics such as yours are constructive and very much welcome.

Cheers
Francois
Thanks, cheers to you as well.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 02:16:09 am »

Yes, it is quite a quandary and a seemingly insolvable problem, at least in our lifetimes. Jared Diamond said that the adoption of agriculture was the biggest catastrophe in human history and I suspect that he's right. It's another reason I am trying to eat more grass-fed and less grain-fed. Somehow humanity as a whole must start turning back the clock. But how do so?

I totally agree with Jared Diamond, at least on this point (I haven't read him in full yet but I should do it). Our civilization is doomed, we have reached the limits our planet can withstand and stupidly dilapidated irreplaceable resources. The best thing we can do is, I think, eat raw paleo, plant nuts and fruit trees, breed grass fed animals. But that’s a drop of water in an ocean of madness.
 
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You mean the oven? I don't think my landlord would care for that! :D I do plan on buying a freezer. Lex has advised me on this. I know that some people don't approve of freezing, but I don't have anywhere to hang meat to dry and age, or to smoke meats, so freezing seems to be the best way for an apartment dweller to preserve and store economical bulk quantities of grass-fed meats, fats and organs.

Large pieces of meat can be kept several months hung on hooks in a fridge. The best is to buy a ventilated fridge (expensive) or find an old fridge without automatic defrosting. Frequent defrosting brings a lot of moisture inside, which dampens the meat, impede its drying and jeopardize its conservation. A panacea is to put the meat intermittently for some hours in a ventilated food drier adjusted to ambient temperature. I often do that for about 24 hours before to put my meat in the fridge. Another way to store and age the meat is hung in a box closed with wire mesh so that air can freely circulate all around the meat while flies cannot enter. It works fine outside the house when the temperature is not too warm nor freezing.   

Quote
I suspect you're right, as I noticed recently that too much unsweetened iced pekoe tea--whether green or black, crap!--gives me heartburn. What a bummer. What is in it that could cause that? Do you have any research on the harmful components (antinutrients) or effects of teas?

Tea contains the alkaloid caffeine, just like coffee !

Quote
Tea drinking is part of my Irish-American culture, so this is a bit more painful to give up than most foods. Wine is associated with French culture. Do you drink wine or mead at all?

Wine is a processed foodstuff, so in principle it is neither paleo nor part of a proper instinctive nutrition, just like fruit or vegetables juices. But it is normally not heated and thus not very harmful if drunk in small amounts. Wine was the only (seldom) exception I allowed myself, but 6 years ago I decided to stop drinking wine and I did it, only to start again in January this year because I am very sad for a personal reason I won’t disclose here. A little bit of good organic red wine helps me when I’m dreadfully sad… and while nicely fermented fruits are not available around ! 

I never tested mead, but a friend brought me a bottle which is waiting a good occasion.

Sorry if we sidetracked form whites and yokes to move toward red… wine!

Cheers then !
Francois 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2009, 06:31:14 am »
I don't own a house or land. I live in a tiny urban apartment. So I think freezing still looks like my most practical option. The outdoor temps are freezing for about half the year anyway here in Vermont. Freezing would have been a common food storage method for the Abenaki Indians who inhabited this land before Europeans.

I tried mead and liked it very much. I prefer it to most wine, but I'm not a wine connoisseur.

Thanks for the info!
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2009, 02:00:37 pm »
" After ingestion of the cooked egg protein meal, the calculated true ileal digestibility of cooked egg protein amounted to 91%. This finding demonstrates that even cooked egg protein, which has generally been considered to be easily digestible, is malabsorbed to some extent after ingestion of a physiologic load. Incomplete assimilation of dietary protein may have important consequences not only from a nutritional point of view, but also from a gastrointestinal point of view. Egg white protein is generally considered to be less digestible than heat-pretreated egg white protein. However, no data are available concerning the magnitude of this impairment in vivo. In this study, it was shown that after ingestion of 25 g of raw egg protein, almost 50% is malabsorbed over 24 h. The higher digestibility of cooked egg protein presumably results from structural changes in the protein molecule induced by heating, thereby enabling the digestive enzymes to gain broader access to the peptide bonds. It has been suggested that the reduced digestibility of raw egg white is at least partially related to the presence of trypsin inhibitors in raw egg white"
the whole article - http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/128/10/1716

IMO I think that the culprit of that poor digestibility of raw eggs is white, which contains inhibitors of enzymes (dr. E. Howell talked about this)
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2009, 05:07:13 pm »
The problem is not so much the egg-white but the fact that raw eggs generally come, unfertilised, unlike what would happen in the wild. Fertilised raw eggs have much lower levels of the antinutrient, avidin.
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Offline majormark

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2009, 06:34:52 pm »
I usually eat the yolk with maybe a teaspoon of the white and discard the rest.

This is what a PhD says about the avidin levels:

"Dr. Sharma, PhD, who is a biochemist with Bayer, contacted me about this issue. His investigation into the matter revealed that there is not enough biotin in an egg yolk to bind to all the avidin present in the raw whites. He found that 5.7 grams of biotin are required to neutralize all the avidin found in the raw whites of an average-sized egg. There are only about 25 micrograms -- or 25 millionths of a gram -- of biotin in an average egg yolk."

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/02/09/raw-eggs.aspx

It would be nice to see a comparative study with unfertilized and fertilized eggs.

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2009, 05:33:43 am »
The problem is not so much the egg-white but the fact that raw eggs generally come, unfertilised, unlike what would happen in the wild. Fertilised raw eggs have much lower levels of the antinutrient, avidin.
I think this, combined with the fact that eggs were not available year-round, may be key. Much of the eggs that Stone-Agers ate would have been fertilized or even fetal. This makes much more practical sense to me than Stone Agers discarding egg whites and only eating the yolks, especially when you consider how small some wild eggs are. For example, I can't imagine going to the bother of separating a quail yolk from white.

Another possible factor is that perhaps wild eggs have a higher ratio of yolk than today's grain-fed chicken eggs. I have noticed that in quail and duck eggs vs. chicken eggs.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline RawZi

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2009, 08:34:18 am »
    Two year eight month raw egg discussion still on going.  Add your experiences, etc if you like:

http://www.circlesoflight.com/health/raw-eggs.html

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2009, 09:15:31 am »
Given that one of the folks at that link was eating 27 raw egg whites per day without noted problems, and many of the others were eating lots of egg whites, it sounds like the egg white concerns are mostly hysteria. I've seen many similar reports on body builder forums. It's interesting how some people say to eat only the whites and others say to eat only the yolks. I eat both, though mostly fertilized.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2009, 06:32:49 pm »
I tend to be middle-ground re this. I've personally found that I get negative reactions if I eat vast amounts of raw eggs for days/weeks on end, with seemingly lesser effects if I always discard most of the raw egg-white. So I may have a personal reaction to avidin or require much higher biotin levels to counter the avidin( it may be something else - Aajonus, for example, claims that raw egg-protein/fat isn't as good for rebuilding cells as raw meat/fat).

I agree re quail eggs:- I find I can tons of them without issues.I tolerate even raw goose eggs a bit
 better than chicken eggs(they're not fed as much grain and do feed on grass/insects etc.)

All eggs I've eaten were unfertilised, incidentally.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline protoject

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2009, 07:32:46 am »
The problem is not so much the egg-white but the fact that raw eggs generally come, unfertilised, unlike what would happen in the wild. Fertilised raw eggs have much lower levels of the antinutrient, avidin.

Would you happen to be able to pull up any links or recommend a reading on this?  Why is it that a fertilized egg has less avidin?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2009, 04:19:11 pm »
Would you happen to be able to pull up any links or recommend a reading on this?  Why is it that a fertilized egg has less avidin?

Here's an article stating that fertilized eggs have less avidin:-

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171406.htm

I presume that as the egg becomes a chick, the egg-components simply change into other substances.
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Offline Guittarman03

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2009, 02:36:20 pm »
This thread I find to be one of the most interesting we've had in a while, in that I have (for one of the first times), the inclination to believe that cooked egg whites proteins are more easily digested and absorbed than raw.  I didn't think this was possible b/c of enzymes and molecule structure.  I realize that fibers can be more digestible when cooked b/c you turn some in to starch/sugar, but I never thought the same would be true of any cooked protein.

But I have to admit that when eating raw eggs, I digest the yolk just fine, but have noticed some minor stomach issues with the whites.  In fact, when I was eating 8-16 eggs a day, I noticed it was better to eat some berries with it, or I would sometimes have a slightly upset stomach.

So that experience combined with some of the things I've read here lead me to believe that it's likely raw egg white protein assimliates less well than cooked. 

Makes me wonder if this is true for any other type of animal protein source.  At any rate, it makes me happy b/c I LOVE over-easy eggs.  I could put away 4-6 even as a 5 year old.  I think I will start eating eggs again for breakfast.
When you consume an organism it loses individuality, but its biological life never ends.  Digestion is merely a transfer of its life to mine.

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Re: Raw eggs: whites and yolks.
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2009, 05:21:34 pm »
No, studies done on cooked fish and cooked meat have shown that they are worse digested than the raw equivalent. It's only the raw egg study that is the anomaly.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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