Author Topic: Lex's Journal  (Read 825582 times)

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Offline Dextery

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #600 on: September 04, 2009, 12:22:23 pm »
Ever since I disclosed that my urine pH was consistently running around 5.0 to 5.5, (acidic), I've been warned by many concerned do-gooder's that this is a sure sign that my blood is also very acidic and that my body is certainly sacrificing massive amounts of minerals from my bones to neutralize the acidity. It won't be long, they warn, before my bones crumble to dust and I’ll be a formless quivering mass of protoplasm.    

Add Professor Loren Cordain to those who would say your bones are mineralized by your acidic diet.
http://thepaleodiet.com/nutritional_tools/acid.shtml

Bone health is substantially dependent on dietary acid/base balance.  All foods upon digestion ultimately must report to the kidney as either acid or base.  When the diet yields a net acid load (such as low-carb fad diets that restrict consumption of fruits and vegetables), the acid must be buffered by the alkaline stores of base in the body.  Calcium salts in the bones represent the largest store of alkaline base in the body and are depleted and eliminated in the urine when the diet produces a net acid load.  The highest acid-producing foods are hard cheeses, cereal grains, salted foods, meats, and legumes, whereas the only alkaline, base-producing foods are fruits and vegetables.  Because the average American diet is overloaded with grains, cheeses, salted processed foods, and fatty meats at the expense of fruits and vegetables, it produces a net acid load and promotes bone mineralization.  By replacing hard cheeses, cereal grains, and processed foods with plenty of green vegetables and fruits, the body comes back into acid/base balance which brings us also back into calcium balance.  The goal is to avoid a net acid load on your kidneys.

Your Dexa scan must be bogus.  The experts know that you must maintain your urine at 7.2 ph so you will be in calcium balance to prevent osteoporosis.
I am also looking forward to your next DEXA scan in a couple of years to see if the good Professor is proven correct!


Offline invisible

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #601 on: September 04, 2009, 12:39:40 pm »
If that person's blog bothered me then I would sought out my life's priorities. There is no need to feel an allegiance to a raw diet. I don't consider myself the 'raw crowd'. My diet doesn't define me. In my opinion, diet should just be instinctive - the less you think about diet the better. It's beneficial to visit forums like this to read about people's experience on the diet (such as this excellent thread by lex) and learn new information, food sources etc but to engage in completely pointless arguments over really irrelevant comments is not productive. I've got a job with work, friends to talk to, women to chase, music to listen to, and my health to maintain...who cares what this man writes. I read his blog, I disagreed, gave a quick comment and moved on.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #602 on: September 04, 2009, 01:51:57 pm »
Phil,

Remember it took most of us a long time to get where we are.  It's an incremental process.  We all have cultural and environmental biases and these are difficult to overcome.  Most can't do it at all.  My dietary odyssey has lasted 35 years and through half a dozen incarnations, each of which I was convinced was the Holy Grail at the time. Such is the nature of the human animal.  

The fact that most of us here on this forum have found that our health improved even more when we dropped dairy and stopped cooking is just not where Dr Harris is today.  He may change this view over time and he may not.  Too me it makes no difference one way or the other.  Like the rest of us, Dr Harris must find his own way at his own pace.  I for one, appreciate his willingness to share his thoughts and beliefs through his blog.  He brings a seasoned medical perspective that I find valuable.  

Lex

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #603 on: September 05, 2009, 05:57:12 am »
The fact that most of us here on this forum have found that our health improved even more when we dropped dairy and stopped cooking is just not where Dr Harris is today.  He may change this view over time and he may not.  Too me it makes no difference one way or the other.  Like the rest of us, Dr Harris must find his own way at his own pace.  I for one, appreciate his willingness to share his thoughts and beliefs through his blog.  He brings a seasoned medical perspective that I find valuable.  

Lex
It never made any difference to my own choices either. However, maybe it's my new carnivorous diet, but I'm less apt to let people walk all over me these days. I don't get as angry as I used to on carbs, but I don't passively take an ass-whipping either. Charles has expounded about this with some very intriguing thoughts at the ZC forum. He seems to agree with me that meat eaters tend to be more calm and peaceful overall, but more openly aggressive when provoked, rather than passive-aggressive. It may be overreaching, but I think there's something to this. Of course, you're an exception to this, as you seem to be pacific at all times, even when Dr. Harris verbally bashes you, along with all other raw dieters, about the head, neck, face and chest. So be it. Perhaps your demeanor is a better refutation of his allegations that any scientific counter-arguments.

An interesting aside--when Raw in Florida--who I still suspect was a troll who just popped in to lecture us (but he's free to rebut that)--called me a douche bag, in the old high-carb days that would have bothered me. On my carnivore diet, I laughed. Quite a change. This diet seems to be improving my personality as well as my physical health. So, no, Harris' remarks didn't bother me personally that much (though the weaselly insinuations of raw dieters being anti-science is perhaps the worst insult he could have chosen, from my perspective--far, far worse than douche-bag--since I love science and consider myself more pro-science than him), but if he wants a fight, I'll give it to him.

Based on your recommendation and his earlier, more scientific posts that I enjoyed, and the lack of umbrage by others here, I am willing to write this one off as a momentary error on his part. We are all human, after all. I suspect he read one or two strident posts here, was dumbfounded and took out his frustrations at his blog.

Also, I googled his name and found that his practice indeed IS in one of the top dairy states (Wisconsin--the flippin' cheese-head state!). So I can understand his bizarre, anti-scientific rantings when it comes to dairy. They appear to be based on career survival, rather than science. I predict he will NEVER change his mind on dairy and am willing to bet money on that. I have found it futile to discuss dietary matters with anyone who has an economic interest in a particular food(s), so I won't bother to challenge him on it. I can also understand his not advocating raw meats, as that would also likely kill his career.

When he's not talking about dairy, he sticks more to the science. So I'll just ignore his bogus dairy spewings and continue to enjoy his other posts.

Besides, like I said at the outset, we already have enough enemies and don't need to provoke any more to attack us further. I never bothered to post at his blog (it would only give him more hits anyway) and I'm hoping that over time he'll see we're quite reasonable and decide to leave us alone. Even if he continues to rant against us, it will probably only increase our membership. As Tyler pointed out, any advertising is generally good advertising (with some rare exceptions).

When I was following an Audette-Cordain style diet and questioned the necessity of raw-meat diets like William was following, I don't recall ever engaging in the sort of broad-brush allegations that Dr. Harris did and I think I was pretty polite to William (he can correct me if I err). Even though I disagreed strongly with William's views on evolution, I strongly defended his right to claim to be a Paleo dieter against others who claimed that was impossible. And I still say Harris' post was bogus spew interspersed with a few reasonable points. Heh, heh.  -d  But I do like his more reasonable comments that followed.

And yeah, yeah, I know, I'm still overly wordy, but I'm hoping that will improve on a raw carnivore diet too! ;)
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #604 on: September 05, 2009, 12:11:46 pm »
Of course, you're an exception to this, as you seem to be pacific at all times, ......

Phil, this one made me smile and probably has Tyler & GS in uncontrolled fits of laughter.  I've certainly had my share of spirited discussions (most would probably call them heated arguements) here on this forum.  Nope, just like everyone else, when I get a bee in my bonnet, it just has to run its course - I'm no differernt than anyone else.  Its easy to keep a cool head when you are outside looking in.  It's a far different matter when your own ideas are at the center of the discussion.

Very hard to escape being human.

Lex

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #605 on: September 08, 2009, 08:26:43 am »
Finally we have a clue as to what causes most of us to have heart palpitations, generally increased heart rate, and on occasion, a minor increase in blood pressure, when we first adopt a high fat very low carb diet.

David posted this in part on the PaNu blog:

…..I have been intrigued with the idea of VLC & paleo for a while now and decided to give it a go - just finished 10th day.
A month ago my blood pressure was 121/71 and pulse 45. At the weekend I used the same blood pressure monitor - to my astonishment it was 135/81, pulse 62……


Needless to say he was a bit perplexed as all of us have been when we jumped on board the Paleo Express.  We’ve all been sold on the idea that VLC/Paleo is the perfect diet and if this is the case then why on earth would our vital signs run amok the moment we jump in with both feet.  Well it seems there's an answer. Dr Harris responded with this tidbit:

David
Your body is elaborating epinephrine to keep your blood sugar regulated. As your metabolism gets better at using fatty acids and ketone bodies, your pulse rate will return to baseline.


Well, those of us that have stuck it out know that our pulse rate does eventually return to baseline, the palpitations go way, and blood pressure usually drops well below our starting point (especially if it was above ‘normal’ when we started).  At least now we have an idea what caused the issues in the first place and I think we can safely say that if you are experiencing these symptoms then you are not yet fully keto adapted.

Dr Harris also confirmed that as we become keto adapted the ketones levels of in our urine will drop as well since ketones will now be used as a primary fuel source and there will be fewer available to spill over into the urine.

I’ve stated for some time now that I believed these issues are a normal part of adapting to the high fat very low carb way of eating.  Glad that there’s a medical explanation for what’s going on.

Lex
« Last Edit: September 08, 2009, 09:39:41 am by lex_rooker »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #606 on: September 08, 2009, 10:51:18 am »
Interesting. I found these:


Epinephrine's ketogenic effect in humans is mediated principally by lipolysis
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/263/2/E250
We conclude that epinephrine's ketogenic effect in humans is primarily the result of its lipolytic effect, is accompanied by a significantly increased rate of ketone body interconversion, is manifest largely as an increase in plasma beta-hydroxybutyrate appearance at high plasma epinephrine values, and is not limited by portal insulin at post-absorptive levels.


Effect of epinephrine on glucose metabolism in humans: contribution of the liver
R. S. Sherwin and L. Sacca
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/247/2/E157
Epinephrine causes a prompt increase in blood glucose concentration in the postabsorptive state.


Effects of epinephrine infusion on leucine and alanine kinetics in humans
J. M. Miles, S. L. Nissen, J. E. Gerich and M. W. Haymond
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/247/2/E166?ck=nck
Infusion of epinephrine in humans increases glucose production and decreases plasma concentrations of some essential amino acids....
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline halotek

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #607 on: September 09, 2009, 06:43:13 am »
Lex, did you ever reach a point where you didn't have spill over ketones on an 80%fat/20% protein diet?  Seems, like you were on that for a while, but your urine ketones stayed high, correct?  You had given yourself more than 2weeks to adapt, is that also correct?  Was it only when you up'd protein that your urine ketones went back down?

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #608 on: September 09, 2009, 12:20:54 pm »
Lex, was wondering if you do anything else to optimize your health besides the way of eating that you follow.

For instance, do you sleep on the floor, walk/run barefoot, squat while you defecate???


Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #609 on: September 09, 2009, 01:34:36 pm »
Lex, did you ever reach a point where you didn't have spill over ketones on an 80%fat/20% protein diet?  Seems, like you were on that for a while, but your urine ketones stayed high, correct?  You had given yourself more than 2weeks to adapt, is that also correct?  Was it only when you up'd protein that your urine ketones went back down?

Hi Halotek,
When on an 85%+ fat as calories diet I never did drop down to low levels of ketones.  They were always level 4+ (160 or greater) and I remained on the high fat diet for about 5 months.  As you state, it was when I upped the protein at the end of the experiment (or maybe more importantly, dropped the fat) that ketones dropped back down to trace or between zero and trace.  Since I went all meat/fat I always spill some ketones.  It's just a matter of how much.  65% - 70% calories as fat and urine ketones generally run between zero and trace.  Remember that I usually keep total calories close to 2,200 or so.  This means that as fat drops protein rises and visa versa.  I've never done an experiment where I held protien constant and then varied fat (which would also vary calories).  This might be interesting to try.  I'll give it some thought.  When I was eating high fat, protein came in at about 85 grams per day and ketones were consistently very high.  When eating the lower fat rations, protein is about 145 grams per day and ketones are consistently low.

Lex

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #610 on: September 09, 2009, 02:00:44 pm »
For instance, do you sleep on the floor, walk/run barefoot, squat while you defecate???

Let's see, I sleep on a latex foam mattress. When I was a teenager I would sleep on the floor in a sleeping bag.  Don't ask me why, it was just my thing at the time.  When I moved away from home my parents bought me a regular spring mattress.  I had that for about 30 years until the springs broke through and I was forced to replace it.  When I purchased the new mattress, I tried all the latest stuff - water beds, air mattress (Select Comfort), Tempurepedic, etc and I settled on a plain latex foam mattress as being the best all around choice for me.

I walk 8 to 12 miles per week and wear tennis shoes.  I do go barefoot most of the time when home, but streets are so full of broken glass that it's just not practical to walk any distance without shoes.  I tried it once and had to stop twice in 4 miles to remove glass shards - not fun.  If I lived by the beach I suppose I'd be barefoot all the time.  Unfortunately I'm landlocked so barefoot is usually not a great option when away from home.

I try to get about 30 to 40 minutes of full sun exposure (just wearing gym shorts) every day.  Since I don't take any supplements, I feel this is important to create vitamin D.  I've read that most of us are very deficient in vitamin D since we spend most of our time in doors and when outside are usually fully clothed.

Yes I do squat to defecate.  I started this 30 years ago after reading a book on colon health and it just seemed so logical that I took up the practice.  I keep a 9" high folding stool in every bathroom in the house and usually carry one with me when I travel.

Lex

William

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #611 on: September 09, 2009, 07:03:38 pm »
I keep a 9" high folding stool in every bathroom in the house and usually carry one with me when I travel.

What's the stool for?
I'm guessing that it's to elevate feet so as to duplicate the squatting position with common toilets?

carnivore

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #612 on: September 10, 2009, 01:15:05 am »
Finally we have a clue as to what causes most of us to have heart palpitations, generally increased heart rate, and on occasion, a minor increase in blood pressure, when we first adopt a high fat very low carb diet.

David posted this in part on the PaNu blog:

…..I have been intrigued with the idea of VLC & paleo for a while now and decided to give it a go - just finished 10th day.
A month ago my blood pressure was 121/71 and pulse 45. At the weekend I used the same blood pressure monitor - to my astonishment it was 135/81, pulse 62……


Needless to say he was a bit perplexed as all of us have been when we jumped on board the Paleo Express.  We’ve all been sold on the idea that VLC/Paleo is the perfect diet and if this is the case then why on earth would our vital signs run amok the moment we jump in with both feet.  Well it seems there's an answer. Dr Harris responded with this tidbit:

David
Your body is elaborating epinephrine to keep your blood sugar regulated. As your metabolism gets better at using fatty acids and ketone bodies, your pulse rate will return to baseline.


Well, those of us that have stuck it out know that our pulse rate does eventually return to baseline, the palpitations go way, and blood pressure usually drops well below our starting point (especially if it was above ‘normal’ when we started).  At least now we have an idea what caused the issues in the first place and I think we can safely say that if you are experiencing these symptoms then you are not yet fully keto adapted.

Dr Harris also confirmed that as we become keto adapted the ketones levels of in our urine will drop as well since ketones will now be used as a primary fuel source and there will be fewer available to spill over into the urine.

I’ve stated for some time now that I believed these issues are a normal part of adapting to the high fat very low carb way of eating.  Glad that there’s a medical explanation for what’s going on.

Lex


I find strange that on a high carb diet, my body did not produce epinephrine (no palpitation) despite an unmanaged blood glucose (hypoglycemia), and that after 9 months on a high fat/zerocarb diet, my body produces epinephrine (palpitations) although my blood sugar is steady.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #613 on: September 10, 2009, 06:21:05 am »
What's the stool for?
I'm guessing that it's to elevate feet so as to duplicate the squatting position with common toilets?

Yup, that's what it's for.  Most toilets are about 15" - 16" to the top of the seat.  Raising the feet about 9" - 10" just about perfectly duplicates a full squat.  It also has a side benefit in keeping you more flexible.  It forces you into a full range of motion of your legs.

Lex
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 06:43:50 am by lex_rooker »

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #614 on: September 10, 2009, 06:42:57 am »
I find strange that on a high carb diet, my body did not produce epinephrine (no palpitation) despite an unmanaged blood glucose (hypoglycemia), and that after 9 months on a high fat/zerocarb diet, my body produces epinephrine (palpitations) although my blood sugar is steady.

If my understanding is correct, the hormone epinephrine plays a role in keeping blood sugar constant during the months that it takes for muscle tissue to dramatically increase cellular mitochondria which is necessary to efficiently use nonesterified fatty acids (free fatty acids that are not in triglyceride form) rather than glucose.  The body communicates its needs through hormones.  On a VLC or ZC diet, there is little free glucose and signals must be sent to the liver to create more glucose from protein than would normally be required until the majority of the tissues are keto/fat adapted.  One of the side effects of epinephrine is increased pulse rate, palpitations, and a slight rise in blood pressure.  Once the body is adpated to using fat as its primary fuel, the epinephrine is no longer needed as the extra glucose is no longer needed and the symptoms disappear.

When you are eating lots of carbs there is no need for the epinephrine to signal the creation of extra glucose as the issue is one of removing excess glucose from the carbs eaten and the muscles and other tissues have more than they need.  Even when eating carbs, if epinephrine is released for some reason - fear, excitement, and the flight or fight response for example - the side effects are still the same, increased pulse rate, palpitations (you feel your heart pounding in your chest), and a rise in blood pressure.

Lex

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #615 on: September 10, 2009, 04:11:05 pm »
Lex, you keep on mentioning a claim that ketosis induces production of extra mitochondria but do you have a study showing this?
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #616 on: September 11, 2009, 12:12:34 pm »
Lex, you keep on mentioning a claim that ketosis induces production of extra mitochondria but do you have a study showing this?

Tyler, here's some PubMed links discussing proliferation of mitochondria on a ketogenic diet.  These links came from the PaNu blog.  I believe that this subject is covered in Peter's Hyperlipid blog as well.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19049599?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18582445?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19168117?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16807920?

I personally have only read the short extracts so have little in the way of details.  I'm happy to rely on Peter's and Dr Harris's statements based on these studies.  They have the education and background to understand them better than I can, and they translate the core ideas into layman's terms in their blogs.

Lex

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #617 on: September 11, 2009, 04:58:22 pm »
Thanks, Lex.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #618 on: September 11, 2009, 09:45:24 pm »
Omega 3 fats, resveratrol and intense CV training have been identified as increasing the number of mitochondria:

Polyunsaturated fatty acids of marine origin [EPA and DHA] upregulate mitochondrial biogenesis and induce ?-oxidation in white fat.
http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053209661

Resveratrol induces mitochondrial biogenesis in endothelial cells
http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/00368.2009v1

"intense cardio training adds mitochondria to fast-twitch muscle fibers and changes them from pure fast-twitch to fast-twitch oxidative which improves the rate at which you can burn fat." --John Parillo, Nutrition & Fitness Q&A with John Parrillo, Thursday, December 30, 1999 2 p.m. EST http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/99/parrillo1230.htm
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #619 on: September 12, 2009, 12:28:01 am »
Thanks for adding some more fuel to the mitochondria fire.  I know that I've read this information in multiple places over the years, but I seldom mark references for this kind of stuff and therefore have trouble finding it again.

Lex

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #620 on: September 12, 2009, 05:49:12 am »
Mitochondria are fascinating. Did you know that have their own DNA, without them we could not get energy from food, and that scientists hypothesize that mitochondria are descended from primordial bacteria? So they are like little parasitical organisms inside our very cells that we could not survive without. Because of this and many other unusual facts about human biology (such as that we have more DNA from bacteria and other organisms within our bodies--particularly the large intestine--than our own human DNA), scientists are increasingly coming to view human beings as communities of cooperating (as well as pathogenic) organisms, rather than singular, isolated individuals (though, this does not mean the end result does not produce an individual personality, which is a separate subject). On the surface it sounds like it runs counter to the orientation of American culture and religious tradition and will likely anger a lot of people the more the scientists discuss this in public. I can imagine misguided accusations about a hidden communist agenda and the like due to oversimplifications and misunderstandings of it.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

William

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #621 on: September 12, 2009, 08:21:56 am »
On the surface it sounds like it runs counter to the orientation of American culture and religious tradition and will likely anger a lot of people the more the scientists discuss this in public. I can imagine misguided accusations about a hidden communist agenda and the like due to oversimplifications and misunderstandings of it.

It agrees with pre-Christian European culture and theology/worldview/weltanschauung though (the nine worlds). Yes, that would anger a lot of people, including those who insist that we are wiser than our ancestors
Probably accusations of pagan as well as communist agenda.  ;)

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #622 on: September 14, 2009, 04:49:32 am »
Lex, you might be interested in Ron Hoggan's and my conjectures re: stimulation of CCK and secretin as a possible partial explanation for increased bone density from diets high in meat and animal fat:

http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?A2=ind0909&L=paleofood&D=1&T=0&O=D&X=05FF7F1A1104143215&Y=the411%40fastmail.fm&P=57420

Other factors I can think of are observations of low excretion of calcium by carnivorous Inuit and increased growth hormone from meats and fish and optimal sodium-potassium ratio--both of which Wiley Long wrote about in the latest edition of The Paleo Diet Update newsletter (www.thepaleodiet.com).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #623 on: September 14, 2009, 05:26:43 am »
Lex, you might be interested in Ron Hoggan's and my conjectures re: stimulation of CCK and secretin as a possible partial explanation for increased bone density from diets high in meat and animal fat:

http://listserv.icors.org/SCRIPTS/WA-ICORS.EXE?A2=ind0909&L=paleofood&D=1&T=0&O=D&X=05FF7F1A1104143215&Y=the411%40fastmail.fm&P=57420

Hi Phil,
Sorry but I can't access the link as it is requesting a login ID and password.

Lex

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Lex's Journal
« Reply #624 on: September 14, 2009, 11:24:00 am »
Sorry about the link, Lex. I've attempted to summarize what I learned from both Ron and other sources here:

"Fat-rich, acidic chyme entering the duodenum triggers the release of cholecystokinin, a hormone produced in the intestinal wall that decreases gastric motility.

The acid in chyme also triggers release of secretin, another hormone. Secretin and cholecystokinin stimulate the release of pancreatic juice that contains bicarbonate, which buffers the effects of gastric acid, and digestive enzymes." --Diane S. Aschenbrenner and Samantha J. Venable, Drug Therapy in Nursing, 2008

Digesting foods that are rich in fats and are acidifying (such as fatty meats or meats with fat--not to be confused with "acidic" foods like citrus fruits that are actually alkaline) triggers buffering secretions of alkaline bile and bicarbonate in the duodenum that raise the ph so that lipase, which requires an alkaline pH to work, can break down the fats.

Therefore, a LOW fat diet that is acidified (such as diets high in grains and low-fat dairy), does not trigger the release of as much bile and bicarbonate, so the body compensates to lower the pH of the duodenum by acquiring calcium, presumably from extracellular fluids. To maintain calcium homeostasis in whatever extracellular fluid the calcium is taken from (http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/esp/2001_saladin/folder_structure/su/m2/s6/sum2s6_1.htm), the body then leaches calcium from the bones to restore calcium levels.

The alkaline hypothesis then says that eating alkaline foods like greens can provide an alternative buffer to the leaching of bones. My guess, however, is that this buffer may be incomplete in many people--which would explain why an alkaline diet with moderate fat may have been insufficient to stop my apparent bone loss (as evidenced by loosening teeth and diminishing jaw bone density on x-rays), but a high fat carnivorous diet succeeded. Apparently, a high fat diet allows the body's own buffering processes, which may be more efficient and effective than ingesting buffers, to kick in more fully.

The sensitivity of the trigger for release of bile and bicarbonate for different people may vary. For some, a little added buffering from ingesting greens may be sufficient to avoid problems. For others, such as people with celiac disease or gluten intolerance, and apparently me, such modest measures may be dangerously insufficient. Perhaps for you and me and Ron Hoggan, we may need to ingest higher levels of fat and acidifying foods to trigger production of the CCK and secretin?

Other potential factors are that growth hormone deficiency contributes to bone density loss (Rosén T, Johannsson G, Johansson J, Bengtsson B. 1995. Consequences of Growth Hormone Deficiency in Adults and the Benefits and Risks of Recombinant Human Growth Hormone Treatment. Retrieved August 31, 2009, from Karger Hormone Research. Website: http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowAbstract&ArtikelNr=000184245&Ausgabe=241187&ProduktNr=224036), tests on Inuit people (as reported in The Paleo Diet) suggest that carnivorous-type diets result in much less calcium excreted than in the SAD.

In addition, I had these references in my files that indicate that animal protein improves calcium balance, whereas certain plant proteins, like soy protein, promote negative calcium balance:

> Herta Spencer, et al, "Do Protein and Phosphorus Cause Calcium Loss?" American Institute of Nutrition, 1988:657-660 http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/118/6/657 ("a diet low in protein and phosphorus may have adverse effects on calcium balance in the elderly. Studies with adults suggest that high protein foods do not cause calcium loss.")
> Spencer, Herta, et al, Federation Proceedings, Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, Nov 1986, 45:12:2758-2762
> Spencer, Herta and Lois Kramer, "Further studies of the effect of a high protein diet as meat on calcium metabolism", American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, June 1983 37 (6):924-929 http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/37/6/924 ("These long- and short-term studies have confirmed our previous results that a high protein intake, given as meat, does not lead to hypercalciuria and does not induce calcium loss.")
> Fallon, Sally, and Mary G Enig, PhD, "Dem Bones-Do High Protein Diets Cause Bone Loss?" Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation Health Journal, 1996, 20:2:1-4, also posted at http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtbones.html
> Hunt J. R., Gallagher S. K., Johnson L. K., Lykken G. I. High- versus low-meat diets: effects on zinc absorption, iron status, and calcium, copper, iron, magnesium, manganese, nitrogen, phosphorus, and zinc balance in postmenopausal women. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1995; 62:621-632 ("high meat consumption increases zinc retention without compromising calcium status"; note--zinc aids in the absorption of calcium into bones)
> Pannemans D.L.E., Schaafsma G., Westerterp K. R. Calcium excretion, apparent calcium absorption and calcium balance in young and elderly subjects: influence of protein intake. Br. J. Nutr. 1997; 77:721-729 ("Ca excretion in faeces (as a percentage of Ca intake) was lower during the higher protein intake")
> Barzel US. The skeleton as an ion exchange: implications for the role of acid-base imbalance in the genesis of osteoporosis. J Bone Miner Res. 1995; 10: 1431-36) ("When purified protein supplements [meaning soy - see Kaneko K, et al. Urinary calcium and calcium balance in young women affected by high protein diet of soy protein isolate and adding sulfur-containing amino acids and/or potassium.] are added to diets, calcium balance usually becomes more negative, suggesting that bone may be affected. However when increased protein is added as foods, particularly meat or dairy products, decreased calcium balance is not always seen (Hunt et al. 1995), especially in young healthy people (Pannemans et al. 1997). This is due to other components of protein-containing foods that have also been shown to alter the urinary excretion of calcium and thus potentially calcium balance. These include phosphate (Remer and Manz 1994, Spencer et al. 1988), sulfate (Remer and Manz 1994) and potassium (Sebastian et al. 1994), as well as calcium (Heaney 1993).")

I'm not sure why animal proteins and soy proteins would have opposite effects on calcium balance. Perhaps there's something about meat proteins that better triggers secretin than plant proteins?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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