Author Topic: One more from France  (Read 8577 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

alphagruis

  • Guest
One more from France
« on: September 29, 2009, 04:21:20 am »
Hi everyone,

I’m on a raw paleo diet for 11 years now. This diet cured within about 6 month my problem of extremely painful recurring kidney stones i suffered from over more than 15 years. My diet is rather omnivore with a fairly large part of animal origin.

Carnivore and Iguana are friends of mine and they draw my attention to the existence of this interesting forum. I certainly agree, the concepts of RAW and PALEO undoubtedly grasp a good deal of what an optimal or healthy diet might be for homo sapiens. Within this framework major questions remain open yet, in my opinion, such as for instance
- the carnivore versus omnivore issue i.e. whether there would be  an optimum (close to zero ? ) in the ratio of the foods from plant to animal origins or if merely many healthy diets we can thrive on and with markedly different ratios actually exist ( my present guess) ,
- the pertinence of some « innovations » upon a strict paleolithic life style such as various fermented foods or raw grassfed butter , for instance.  All species as well as their diets actually do evolve, after all, and always did so.   

 I feel that the confrontation of various individual experiences in this forum  might help to make further progress. The journals in particular may provide valuable data in this respect.
 Main stream medical « science » is unfortunately still completely stuck in a purely reductionnist approach as well as plagued by a formidable cultural bias. Thus it hardly contributes a lot of valuable work and has generated a lot of confusion instead, at least up to now. Much more has been done and can be expected from anthropology and other sciences. And hopefully from forums like this one.

I wish you all the best to improve your diets, healths and life styles.



Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: One more from France
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2009, 05:00:14 am »
Bonjour Alphagruis. Your English is impressive.

Evolutionary medicine (see Dr. Ron Hoffman) and functional medicine (see Dr. Mark Hyman) are relatively new approaches that hold promise.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: One more from France
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2009, 06:02:14 am »
Thanks PaleoPhil

I agree with you,  evolutionary medicine is of great interest. I don't  know anything about Dr. Hyman and will try to learn more about his approach.


Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: One more from France
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2009, 08:06:35 am »
Thanks PaleoPhil

I agree with you,  evolutionary medicine is of great interest. I don't  know anything about Dr. Hyman and will try to learn more about his approach.


Thanks. FYI: I don't know if Dr. Hoffman literally considers himself an evolutionary medicine practitioner, but he's the prominent medical doctor who uses a Paleo-type diet that I could think of. There are others and at least one book has been written on that subject.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: One more from France
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2009, 04:18:30 pm »
Welcome to the forum! It's always good to have more members from Europe.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: One more from France
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2009, 09:37:57 am »
I forgot to mention Dr. Harris, the PaNu doctor, who is another prominent proponent of Paleo-type diets and also an MD. Interestingly, I recall that Dr. Harris had mentioned preferring his meats lightly cooked, rather than medium-to-well done like Stefansson, though neither Hoffman nor Harris advocate a raw diet.

Dr. Eades doesn't claim to advocate a Paleo-type diet, AFAIK, but he is another practicing MD whose approach is closer to a Paleo one than that of most allopathic physicians. He is a friend and colleague of Loren Cordain and has said positive things about the Paleo approach (though he disagrees with Dr. Cordain on some things and with us on others). So things have gradually been changing, and my list of people who are somehow connected to Paleolithic/evolutionary nutrition or medicine just keeps growing.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2009, 09:46:58 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: One more from France
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2009, 06:05:08 pm »
There are indeed now some prominent MD's that acknowledge the existence and major importance of Darwinian evolution in their "science". Unfortunately MD's education (at least here in France) does not even include a serious course that  teaches them the mere facts that point to and support evolution and eventually the relevant theory. So they have essentially to learn about it by themselves.

There is one french MD who also desserves to be added to your list, PaleoPhil. It's Jean Seignalet who wrote a book in 1996 entitled "L'alimentation ou la troisième médecine", unfortunately not translated in English AFAIK. He promotes a paleo type diet and provides a very convincing and comprehensive discussion of the adverse effects of heating or irradiating food. Note that he was not just an MD but a biologist involved in research and so he could take advantage of his much broader education.    

William

  • Guest
Re: One more from France
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2009, 09:46:55 pm »
While there may be adequate evidence for the evolution of other species, there is none for man.

No "facts".

Jean Seignalet was wise when he based his findings on science rather than faith.
Kouchakoff did the same.

Result is that they are commonly ignored so that otherwise intelligent people can continue the fruitless babble about hypothetical evolution. Looks like an addiction, and we need a psychologist to explain it.

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: One more from France
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2009, 06:55:31 am »
While there may be adequate evidence for the evolution of other species, there is none for man.

No "facts".

Jean Seignalet was wise when he based his findings on science rather than faith.
Kouchakoff did the same.

Result is that they are commonly ignored so that otherwise intelligent people can continue the fruitless babble about hypothetical evolution. Looks like an addiction, and we need a psychologist to explain it.

Your position is quite original, William, in that you seem to acknowledge  the phenomenon of evolution for plants and as well as animals except man. Why do you think man is an exception ?

I can hardly believe that you’re right in this respect mainly because biology and the biosphere exhibit so striking a unity  All «species »are made of the same stuff or biomolecules : proteins, enzymes, genes etc are quite similar and often even exactly the same when compared in species as different as man, chimp, wolf or deer  Genetically these animals mainly differ in the amount of non-coding DNA rather than genes. These species « function » quite similarly and the basic biochemistry is  quite the same, all get for instance ATP energy units in exactly the same biochemical way from fats and/ or carbohydrates. This remarkable unity can be simply explained by the existence of a common ancestor i.e.  by phylogeny and evolution.

So it is much more likely that either all species do evolve or none.

I do think there is actually sufficient direct and indirect evidence in favor of evolution as a fact, in spite of the « missing links » from paleonthology. As well as for the original darwinian ordering principle of natural selection, though the latter certainly cannot explain by itself alone evolution and order in the biosphere . More general self-organization must be invoked too. 

Yet I certainly agree with you  that the usual neodarwinian synthesis theory of evolution is incorrect, but not because of Darwin’s principle but due to the fact that  the central dogma of molecular biology or genetic determinism is basically wrong. This indeed led to much « fruitless babble » as you put it  and unfortunately to the ridiculous genetic tinkering of so many people who do not know what they are doing.

As you do i also think that we do not necessarily have to invoke evolution in order to explain or understand why raw paleo like diets are far superior to neolithic ones. Cooked grains or legumes are generally quite toxic and it is not unlikely that multicellular organisms simply cannot ever adapt to such foods. Bacteria can.
  The work of Seignalet indeed shows experimentally that his paleo diet works and this is the important point not theory. But note that he « believed » in evolution of man.



William

  • Guest
Re: One more from France
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2009, 07:35:19 am »
Your position is quite original, William, in that you seem to acknowledge  the phenomenon of evolution for plants and as well as animals except man. Why do you think man is an exception ?

I heard a wise man say "Believe nothing until you have confirmed it to the best of your ability.
I can't confirm evolution of man. Also, nobody gave me any money to say that it is true. :(

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: One more from France
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2009, 08:07:36 am »
...Unfortunately MD's education (at least here in France) does not even include a serious course that  teaches them the mere facts that point to and support evolution and eventually the relevant theory. So they have essentially to learn about it by themselves.

There is one french MD who also desserves to be added to your list, PaleoPhil. It's Jean Seignalet who wrote a book in 1996 entitled "L'alimentation ou la troisième médecine", unfortunately not translated in English AFAIK. He promotes a paleo type diet and provides a very convincing and comprehensive discussion of the adverse effects of heating or irradiating food. Note that he was not just an MD but a biologist involved in research and so he could take advantage of his much broader education.    
Yes, I learned about Dr. Seignalet months ago from a Youtube video. We have discussed him here. There are some Instincto books that were translated into English and at least one is available free online.

It's ironic that French MDs know so little about evolutionary medicine and nutrition and the diseases of civilization, given that re-discovery of these concepts among Western nations appears to have begun in France, among such pioneers as:

Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin (1755 to 1826)
Stanislas Tanchou, MD (one of Napoleon's surgeons) - developed the "diseases of civilization" theory
John Le Conte, MD (1818-1891)
Jean-Francois Dancel
Dr. Claude Bernard (1813 - 1878) - He influenced Dr. William Harvey who in turn influenced William Banting, who wrote a best-selling booklet entitled Letter on Corpulence that spread the news about the benefits of low carb diets to the English-speaking world.

And of course, Dr. Seignalet in more recent times.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: One more from France
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2009, 02:51:20 am »
I heard a wise man say "Believe nothing until you have confirmed it to the best of your ability.
I can't confirm evolution of man. Also, nobody gave me any money to say that it is true. :(

Unfortunately I said it's true but nobody gave me any money either ;)

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: One more from France
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2009, 03:02:53 am »
Yes, I learned about Dr. Seignalet months ago from a Youtube video. We have discussed him here. There are some Instincto books that were translated into English and at least one is available free online.

It's ironic that French MDs know so little about evolutionary medicine and nutrition and the diseases of civilization, given that re-discovery of these concepts among Western nations appears to have begun in France, among such pioneers as:

Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin (1755 to 1826)
Stanislas Tanchou, MD (one of Napoleon's surgeons) - developed the "diseases of civilization" theory
John Le Conte, MD (1818-1891)
Jean-Francois Dancel
Dr. Claude Bernard (1813 - 1878) - He influenced Dr. William Harvey who in turn influenced William Banting, who wrote a best-selling booklet entitled Letter on Corpulence that spread the news about the benefits of low carb diets to the English-speaking world.

And of course, Dr. Seignalet in more recent times.

Ah thanks PaleoPhil.

I didn't know about the influence Claude Bernard had on William Banting...

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: One more from France
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2009, 08:05:34 am »
Ah thanks PaleoPhil.

I didn't know about the influence Claude Bernard had on William Banting...
Yes, Banting, and more recently, Atkins, get most of the credit, because they did a good job writing about what they learned from others re: low carb and thereby influenced masses of people (Banting reportedly donated all the profits from his pamphlet), whereas Bernard did the creative work--unless he got his ideas from someone else, of course. Each time I think I've found the originator I find an earlier source who influenced that person, and it's quite possible that Bernard was influenced by earlier thinkers, because as early as ca 600 BC the physician Susruta/Sushruta of India described diabetes as a disease in which urine is "like an elephant's in quantity" and attributed it to carbs ("brought on by gluttonous overindulgence in rice, flour, and sugar") http://www.diabeteshealth.com/read/1992/11/01/25/history-of-diabetes-from-raw-quinces-and-gruel-to-insulin/.

Low carb diets were apparently one of the standard treatments for diabetes for the next two and a half millennia, until 1922, when Banting, Macleod, Best and Collip invented the process for insulin and the Lilly company mass produced it. Doctors saw this as an opportunity to stop restricting their patients’ carbohydrates and let them eat whatever they wanted: “It was a fabulous time to work as a diabetes doctor and the clinicians who were able to get their hands on insulin were rewarded with patients who awoke from comas, could increase their caloric intake from the high hundreds to over 2,000 and had a newfound appetite for physical activity and carbohydrates.” Review of Bliss, Michael. The Discovery of Insulin. (University of Chicago Press, 1984). http://www.closeconcerns.com/dcu/BR_1_Discovery_of_Insulin.htm [emphases mine]. Even today I have relatives with diabetes who were told by their doctors that they could eat as much carbs as they want as long as they boost their insulin doses to offset them.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: One more from France
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2009, 03:00:29 am »
Indeed, as your posts nicely show, much can be learned by looking at the history of science or the progressive development of new ideas and knowledge. I’m quite convinced that even the most creative scientists always benefited from « climbing on the shoulders of their predecessors » and the most awesome scientific breakthroughs are usually the  result of long periods of maturation. So certainly Claude Bernard as well as many others  and even the symbol of cosmic intelligence and wisdom, namely Einstein, were undoubtedly strongly influenced by earlier thinkers.

Diabetes is one of those dreadful diseases apparently brought about by the unfortunate neolithic revolution. Most modern doctors and patients still have to learn that these maladies cannot really be « cured » by shots or swallowing of drugs such as insulin without a major change in lifestyle. The discovery of insulin and its mass production permits the patients to stay on neolithic foods without dying. Yet their health degrades progressively but inexorably from what doctors call naively the « complications » of the disease . Thus paradoxically and ironically, insulin discovery, this apparently great breakthrough of reductionnist science led the doctors to abandon the earlier dietary approach, the only way to a real cure though.

Nature is wont to hide herself and science is not a simple linear progression.



Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: One more from France
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2009, 06:15:34 am »
Yes, all very true.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: One more from France
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2009, 12:23:35 am »
Here is a list of Paleo doctors I came across: http://thepaleodiet.com/healthcare_practitioners.htm.

Granted, they likely advocate much lower levels of fat than what I eat, but likely offer superior dietary suggestions to the standard low-fat, high-carb, modern food dogma. I'm not aware of any physicians or scientists who advocate RPD, unfortunately.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,016
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Raw Paleolithic Diet
Re: One more from France
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2009, 04:10:34 am »
Here is a list of Paleo doctors I came across: http://thepaleodiet.com/healthcare_practitioners.htm.

Granted, they likely advocate much lower levels of fat than what I eat, but likely offer superior dietary suggestions to the standard low-fat, high-carb, modern food dogma. I'm not aware of any physicians or scientists who advocate RPD, unfortunately.

Well, there is Dr Mercola in a partial way.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

William

  • Guest
Re: One more from France
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2009, 05:02:45 am »


Nature is wont to hide herself and science is not a simple linear progression.




More likely, we believe so strongly what we are told that we don't understand what should otherwise be obvious.
For instance some read archaeology and see stupid cavemen, while I read reports of the condition of bones, and see wise and intelligent masters of their environment who fit perfectly in the ecology.

Difficult to stop believing.

alphagruis

  • Guest
Re: One more from France
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2009, 06:29:20 am »
More likely, we believe so strongly what we are told that we don't understand what should otherwise be obvious.
For instance some read archaeology and see stupid cavemen, while I read reports of the condition of bones, and see wise and intelligent masters of their environment who fit perfectly in the ecology.

Difficult to stop believing.

Agree.

Quote from Nobel price of physics Robert B. Laughlin:

"..ideologies preclude discovery. All of us see the world as we wish it were rather than as it actually is, for it is in our nature, but we need to keep in mind that this is a design flaw of the human mind and resist it if we can. Seeing through ideologies and debunking them is what real science is all about. Mental life in general, actually."

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk