Author Topic: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?  (Read 5677 times)

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Offline popeye

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2009, 04:01:48 pm »
http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/raw-paleo-diet?page=1&commentId=2684079%3AComment%3A338737&x=1#2684079Comment338737

My own experience, as well as my research into the science, disagrees with the notion that high fat, low carb diets are in any way dangerous.  I have lived both diets and I know firsthand which one works and which one gave me loads of health problems.  I see a lot of claims and anecdotes in that link ("I know a guy who eats raw meat and has cavities", "my friend was on the primal diet and died" etc), but no real hard evidence to speak of, and besides, we all must go on our own experience.  Eating a fruit diet gave me cavities, and I haven't developed any cavities eating a low carb diet.  People such as Lex have solved tooth and bone problems, and many serious health problems in general, eating nothing but meat.  Does that mean you should eat nothing but meat, too?  No, all I'm saying is that personal experience is king, and no amount of zealot drum banging and arm flailing should change the fact that something either works for you or it doesn't.

There are a lot of gurus and followers on the internet who refuse to look at anything that disrupts their worldview.  For any diet, or any way of life for that matter, you will always find people who tell you what you are doing is wrong.  I say just do what works and screw everything else.

Offline popeye

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2009, 04:07:58 pm »
I just want to add that I found this quote particularly funny:

"It's also my experience that the most vociferous supporters of this diet [raw paleo] tend to be unpleasant and aggressive."

I find that ironic because I have never met a greater concentration of zealots and closed minded individuals than in some of the raw vegan groups I've been part of.

Offline whitebox84

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2009, 04:33:18 pm »
Thanks buddy -- I love your profile pic btw.

I had my first meal of raw beef a moment ago. I feel great so far. The meat guy recommended the thin slices of rib-eye. Can I get the thicker pieces and chew on those as well? This is quite a wild experiment for me, given its rather taboo, particularly with fears rampant about what happens when you eat raw meat. Even the fish guy at the store said only eat salmon and tuna. I think I can go and eat any of them, no?

How about combinations? Should I eat one food at a time. Is that best? For example, raw vegans talk about how gastric fluids specific to the foods your saliva is hitting when it enters the mouth can get confused when different combinations (which require different fluids and enzymes) hit the stomach. Foods that digest quicker ferment as they wait for the ones that take longer to get ready for the next step. This causes indigestion and so on. What is the rule of thumb with raw paleo?

Do you eat pickled ginger with salmon or other raw meats? Wasabi? These types of things to help with digestion or no need? (or perhaps they should be excluded from the diet altogether).

I think from my experience here I will be a big fruit and veg eater while at the same time including a good range of raw meats. At least for this next month that will be the idea. The issue here is that my carb intake will still be fairly high with the high level of fruits. What do you think about that?

Thanks!

Offline popeye

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2009, 04:56:26 pm »
Thanks buddy -- I love your profile pic btw.

I had my first meal of raw beef a moment ago. I feel great so far. The meat guy recommended the thin slices of rib-eye. Can I get the thicker pieces and chew on those as well? This is quite a wild experiment for me, given its rather taboo, particularly with fears rampant about what happens when you eat raw meat. Even the fish guy at the store said only eat salmon and tuna. I think I can go and eat any of them, no?

How about combinations? Should I eat one food at a time. Is that best? For example, raw vegans talk about how gastric fluids specific to the foods your saliva is hitting when it enters the mouth can get confused when different combinations (which require different fluids and enzymes) hit the stomach. Foods that digest quicker ferment as they wait for the ones that take longer to get ready for the next step. This causes indigestion and so on. What is the rule of thumb with raw paleo?

Do you eat pickled ginger with salmon or other raw meats? Wasabi? These types of things to help with digestion or no need? (or perhaps they should be excluded from the diet altogether).

I think from my experience here I will be a big fruit and veg eater while at the same time including a good range of raw meats. At least for this next month that will be the idea. The issue here is that my carb intake will still be fairly high with the high level of fruits. What do you think about that?

Thanks!

You can eat your meat however you want it--sliced thin, big chunks; it doesn't matter at all.  I don't see any reason why you shouldn't eat whatever fish tickles your fancy, either.

As far as combinations go, my experience has been that food combining grew out of the fact that eating a lot of fruit with anything will probably upset your stomach.  I always had difficulty digesting fruit if I ate it with anything else, even other types of fruit.  My digestive system improved dramatically when I cut down on the fruit and started eating a lot of animal fat.

Yes, I eat wasabi and pickled ginger with my sashimi when I go out to sushi bars and the like.  That's one of my favorite dishes.  If you like that stuff, eat it.  I have no reason to think it's dangerous.  I know the 80/10/10 movement decries spices and condiments as some kind of toxic agitators but if they don't bother you then don't worry about it.  It makes no sense to worry about minutia like spices while eating loads of fructose and glucose, which rapidly accelerate the aging process and are highly toxic to the body.  Forget fat and cholesterol being the cause of disease--the process of glycation is the real problem and is something everyone should read up on.  Glycation is the reason I keep my carb intake as low as I do.

My view is that cutting down on the fruit is the way to go.  But I wouldn't do it too quickly.  Dropping carbs drastically can lead to side effects as your body starts turning to fat for fuel.  You have to decide what to do in that regard.  My opinion is that low carb diets start becoming effective when you drop carbohydrate intake below 25% of total calories.  That means if you eat 2500 calories in one day then you can eat about 150 grams of carbs.  I personally eat about 80 grams of carbohydrate per day.  I've found that level of carb to be sustainable in that it's not so restrictive that I start missing sweet foods, but the intake is low enough that I believe I get just about the same benefits as if I ate no carbs at all.  I can't tell you if there's really a difference between 0 and 60 grams of carbohydrate a day, but if you can't stick with 0 then you shouldn't do it.  Do what you can live with for life; that's my opinion.

Hope that helps.

Edit: Also, keep and mind that I don't have any answers, just suggestions from my life.  I still have health problems myself that I'm trying to resolve.  let's all learn from each other!

Offline whitebox84

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2009, 05:41:03 pm »
Thanks for this.

What health problems do you have? How did you experience them when you were on 811 (how long were you on this?) and how long are you in raw paleo? How were the problems affected during either?

Another question -- how careful are you for santizing plates, materials, your hands, when handling raw meats, foods?

Offline whitebox84

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2009, 05:51:22 pm »
BTW, as far as glycation goes, does that mean it's probably a good idea to not eat fruits too soon after meat or anything high protein?

Offline RawZi

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2009, 06:10:28 pm »
How about combinations? Should I eat one food at a time. Is that best? For example, raw vegans talk about how gastric fluids specific to the foods your saliva is hitting when it enters the mouth can get confused when different combinations (which require different fluids and enzymes) hit the stomach. Foods that digest quicker ferment as they wait for the ones that take longer to get ready for the next step. This causes indigestion and so on. What is the rule of thumb with raw paleo?

Do you eat pickled ginger with salmon or other raw meats? Wasabi? These types of things to help with digestion or no need? (or perhaps they should be excluded from the diet altogether).

    I'm not really raw paleo as I eat (raw) grass grazed dairy a good part of the time.  I find when eating raw dairy for me, it's better combined with raw eggs, unheated honey and a little bit of unripe fruit.  Also, when eating (raw) lean meat I find it much better to combine it with an ample amount of raw fat.

    I used to love wasabi and ginger.  I feel better now without them.  I don't like (raw) mustard on raw meat either, it gives me cramps.  I don't use soy sauce.  The only condiment that suits my system well is (organic) lemon when eating urchin and caviar.

    As far as the Raw Vegans over there with their anti-meat Arguments?  Lies and exaggerations.
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Online TylerDurden

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2009, 06:14:50 pm »
Thanks buddy -- I love your profile pic btw.

I had my first meal of raw beef a moment ago. I feel great so far. The meat guy recommended the thin slices of rib-eye. Can I get the thicker pieces and chew on those as well? This is quite a wild experiment for me, given its rather taboo, particularly with fears rampant about what happens when you eat raw meat. Even the fish guy at the store said only eat salmon and tuna. I think I can go and eat any of them, no?

Correct. Phobias re raw animal foods of any kind are needless. Read up on articles on the hygiene hypothesis.
Re thicker pieces of raw meat mention:- Sure do that.

Incidentally, I've moved this topic to the hot topics forum. Please bear in mind, that in RL, we are constantly bombarded by non-rawists who condemn our raw animal food diets, so that many of us prefer having the anti-raw topics put in the hot topics forum, so as to not have to always read them, if we don't want to.

Quote
How about combinations? Should I eat one food at a time. Is that best? For example, raw vegans talk about how gastric fluids specific to the foods your saliva is hitting when it enters the mouth can get confused when different combinations (which require different fluids and enzymes) hit the stomach. Foods that digest quicker ferment as they wait for the ones that take longer to get ready for the next step. This causes indigestion and so on. What is the rule of thumb with raw paleo?

Keep plant food and animal food separate as they require different enzymes/bacteria etc.. Plant food digests very quickly, so eat plant food first, then wait at least 30 minutes before eating animal food.

Quote
Do you eat pickled ginger with salmon or other raw meats? Wasabi? These types of things to help with digestion or no need? (or perhaps they should be excluded from the diet altogether).

Ideally, condiments like wasabi should be avoided. They do seem to speed up digestion but usually that means the raw food isn't as properly absorbed, judging from my experience. Also, using condiments, however raw, makes one eat more than one should. Just eating the raw food on its own will give you a "stop" signal sooner.

Quote
I think from my experience here I will be a big fruit and veg eater while at the same time including a good range of raw meats. At least for this next month that will be the idea. The issue here is that my carb intake will still be fairly high with the high level of fruits. What do you think about that?

Thanks!

My personal experience was that I did better re health as long as I incorporated 1 large raw meat-meal a day. if I included that with vast amounts of raw fruit as well, it didn't seem to matter re health.

Re that foolish pro-raw vegan link:- I have to laugh re their mentions of tooth-decay. I mean so many of us have had their teeth almost fall out on raw vegan diets(in my case,  dairy was the worst food for my damaged teeth, but raw vegan diets also did some harm to my teeth).Still, I'm glad that there are fools like durianrider criticising our diet. That means that when they inevitably fail on such diets sooner or later, a few of them may remember our diet and try it, before it's too late.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline popeye

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2009, 06:26:01 pm »
BTW, as far as glycation goes, does that mean it's probably a good idea to not eat fruits too soon after meat or anything high protein?

It's the total amount of consumed carbohydrate per day that matters.  When you eat them isn't important.  You really don't want a lot of glucose circulating in your bloodstream and regardless of it being "high glycemic", "good/bad carbs" or whatever, it's still glucose and it will still glue your proteins together.  Search pubmed or the medical journals for "glycation" and you'll see how much has been written about it.  I am totally amazed the public has no idea what glycation is, but they will tell you any day of the week how bad eggs are for you.  Glycation is the reason why a diabetic's skin typically looks bad and the organs don't function well.  I'm certainly not saying to avoid carbs completely, but from what I've been reading avoiding them as much as you can will do you good.  Read up and see if you agree with me.

In any case, do some experimenting and see what level of carbs or fruit you are comfortable with.  I'm just giving out what I've gathered through my own investigation.  I'm kind of wary of acting in the role of an advice-giver and am much less sure of myself than I was back in my vegetarian days.  So take what I and other people here say in its own context.  Some people here eat a lot of fruit and do fine.  But I think even they will agree that animal fat is crucial re health.

Offline popeye

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2009, 06:30:06 pm »
durianrider

lol, I don't mean to be a hater but durianrider is a little much from what I've seen of him.  He says consuming raw meat is an eating disorder; well I guess all our ancestors 50,000 years ago had eating disorders!

Offline popeye

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 06:41:43 pm »
Thanks for this.

What health problems do you have? How did you experience them when you were on 811 (how long were you on this?) and how long are you in raw paleo? How were the problems affected during either?

Another question -- how careful are you for santizing plates, materials, your hands, when handling raw meats, foods?

I developed a chronic fatigue problem, which basically includes irritated bowels, difficulty concentrating, anxiety and weakness as the main symptoms.  This was after being on a 75%+ fruit diet for a couple of years.  I never could do 100% because I would get very hungry for other things and could never stomach eating 30 bananas a day to meet my calorie needs.  Some 80/10/10ers have been known to go on mono banana diets for a month to "cleanse" their system.  I have no idea how someone could do something like this.  They must be way more hardcore than me.

I started eating a meat-based diet with regularity about 8 months ago.  I don't eat an all-raw diet by any means, but I don't overcook my food either, preferring most of my meat rare, and I eat a lot of grassfed meat.  My problems have gradually been disappearing during this period.  The past week has been very successful, and I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or the supplement and gland regimen I started around that time.  Check up on my journal from time to time to see how I progress.

As far as sanitation I don't really care and eat raw eggs frequently, forget to wash my hands after handling raw meat, etc.  I really don't think it's a problem.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2009, 09:26:13 pm »
My first argument vs raw veganism is it works for me, my brother and my kids:

- I could not last more than 2 months on raw vegan + raw fruits (suffered malnutrition)
(hard to follow, hard to prepare, needs will power)

- I could not last more than 2 months on raw fruitarian (suffered malnutrition)
(easy to follow, delicious, but never really feels sated)

- I felt so great and so good and got so handsome got really comfortable on raw paleo and cured the rest of my so called incurable eczema with spectacular finality.

(easy to follow, easy to prepare, no preparation, delicious, feels satisfied, no hypoglycemic symptoms with high raw fat) Been here for almost 2 years and so far so great.

I am human.  I am an omnivore. Or maybe idiot raw vegans have forgotten that humans ARE AN OMNIVOROUS SPECIES.  Raw vegans trying to branch out a separate raw vegan human branch?  Let them try...  In the meantime we omnivores will out reproduce them.  He he he.

Raw vegan and raw fruitarian are mere tools of healing... and are resorted to only temporarily.

Raw paleo diet is a curing diet, a healing diet, a body building diet and a mainstay diet.  It is the most appropriate human diet because paleo diet cures many many many many diseases.

I challenge any rich institution or person to FUND clinical studies and I will organize these clinical studies on RAW PALEO DIET.  

Come on, put your money in something that REALLY WORKS, heal the world, fund raw paleo diet clinical studies.  

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« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 09:34:07 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline livingthelife

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2009, 10:09:33 pm »
Well, I read the thread and there isn't much content there. It's just opinion and conjecture. They don't seem to be interested in research and contemplation like the people on this forum are. Some of the arguments presented seem quite incorrect and illogical, such as the conclusion that a woman who died from lymphoma had E Coli from RAF.

I posted about veganism before - it developed among ascetics to "elevate consciousness." It wasn't intended to build a healthy body but rather to change the brain in a way that realizes "higher energies." I believe that veganism is "maintenance starvation" that creates psychological experiences of a spiritual nature. Now, however, people create a modern lifestyle around it.

I have a suspicion about this aversion to animal foods, raw or cooked: meat is usually the first to go during anorexia. This is backed up by the findings of health care professionals who treat eating disorders, just google anorexia+vegetarian. This is not to say, of course, that this connection is true for everyone on a personal level, though I do think that people are encouraged in general to eat poorly (low-fat high-fiber) - I think that anorexia has become mainstream. My opinion only.

Perhaps there is no point in responding to the comments, since that forum seems opposed to RAF.

Offline whitebox84

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2009, 10:16:27 pm »
I am really interesting in hearing more of your perspective. I'm asking that you elaborate and clarify on all your points further (and more). Your perspective comes off as extremely grounded and since I'm kind of in a state of inner turmoil from figuring out what to do, how to eat, I'd really appreciate it if you go into your thoughts and experience around this subject more deeply.

Thanks!

Offline livingthelife

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2009, 11:59:36 pm »
What I discovered (to be true for me) during spiritual seeking is that I was leaving myself to find myself. This is psychological splitting. My situation seems to be the common one of being a physiologically healthy person with a "personality disorder" - in other words, maladjusted but curable.  :)

To use Freud/Jung's description, the ego (the conscious rational mind) mediates between the id (the primal drives for survival and satisfaction) and the superego (the ideal self, the moral self, personal god). When the superego and the id are in conflict, the ego cannot reconcile them and suffers tremendously.

An integrated, psychologically healthy person will create and accept values in the superego that accept and satisfy the id. The ego will maintain balance between them.

I think that religion and spiritual disciplines can create integration, but most people don't "finish the job." They split off the superego (god, heaven, love) and id (mankind, earth, evil) to relieve conflict in the ego, but they do not attempt to then reconcile and internalize them.

Monotheistic religions (and modern civilization is based on a monotheistic world-view) as practiced seem to actually create further imbalance by making the superego totally good and the id totally bad. Obviously, a person will not be able to achieve integration in this system.

If a person was to advise others to withhold nourishment it would seem crazy, yet when it is recommended as a means to leave behind the "bad" id (mankind, earth, evil) and live with only the superego (god, heaven, love), it's incredibly attractive to anyone who is having psychological conflict that the ego cannot mediate.

The person who has learned that being hungry, powerful, vital, and effective is "bad" has learned that the id is bad. It's one thing to be hungry, to steal food, and to feel bad about having stolen; it's another thing entirely to feel that being hungry itself is bad.

The origins of the "bad id" are usually instilled in childhood, beginning in infancy, and are both cultural and personal. Other traumatic experiences can cause this as well. Further damage is done by reinforcing the badness through the superego, such as teaching that maltreatment is deserved.

Psychotherapy and spiritual disciplines are healing when they redefine both the id and the superego in a way that enables them to be the poles of one continuum so that the ego can mediate between them. Ritualistic killing of animals is a primitive means to do this: I kill this conscious being to satisfy the id but I do it with honor to satisfy the superego.

In the case of veganism, striving to die and shed the id while striving to survive are opposed and represent a personality split (this is of course the opinion of someone who believes that animal foods are necessary for health - it's what I found to be true for me).

Healing a personality disorder requires accepting things that are highly intolerable, such as the sensations surrounding child abuse or becoming conscious of past actions that bring incredible shame. Not easy to do, which is why personality disorders are so powerful and difficult to correct.

Once I'd accepted certain things I was able to realign my superego (values) and accept my id (you can't change your biological drives, only suppress them) I was able to abandon ascetic (restrictive) practices and care for myself properly by mediating between them with the rational egoic mind. I'm still working on it - and perhaps we should all always be working on it, because to adapt and create is to be alive.

Why society as a whole seems to be disordered I really don't know, but from my perspective there is a learned repugnance for nourishing food (denial of the id) in preference for non-foods or restrictive eating habits that appeal to the superego.

This is, of course, just my point of view and my own experience. There is nothing to be lost and much to be gained by each person making their own respectful and moderate exploration of "what it means to be alive."

I hope your inner turmoil is soon replaced by inner peace!  :)

Offline whitebox84

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2009, 01:48:17 am »
Gracias, my friend. Lots to digest.

Offline livingthelife

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Re: Response to the Raw Vegans Arguments here?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2009, 07:05:45 am »
Want to throw this out:

In a pantheistic/pagan/taoist/ecological/etc world-view, there is no subject/object as with the monotheist worldview.

A monotheistic worldview is good-bad, me-them, life-death, with the requirement that the thinker take a position in order to function in the paradigm.

In the pantheistic worldview, life is a fluctuating network of relationships. Plants are as equally "alive" as animals and are not considered in isolation from the larger network. Death is interwoven with life. This is a more accurate worldview, as evidenced not only by mere observation but also by investigations in physics, biology etc. Mythology provides many examples of how the pantheistic "collective" operates in human understanding.

(I owe a former member here a great debt for recommending the author Fritjof Capra, which broadened my perspective and lead to many rich investigations.)

I bring this up because it is (I believe) impossible to find the "right" answer, the "right" diet, etc. There are only configurations and tolerances. There are natural corrections that guide decisions toward optimal health, if we can stay aware of them. I think it's much easier to care for yourself if you adopt a more authentic, and more ancient, paradigm than the Cartesian & monotheistic mind/body split which defies personality integration.

Relax, be aware, be alive.  :)

 

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