Author Topic: Glucose / Fructose  (Read 13874 times)

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Offline Nicola

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Glucose / Fructose
« on: July 07, 2008, 03:56:31 am »
Favorite summer fruit... :-X

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/

Nicola

Satya

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2008, 11:49:36 am »
Glucose is absolutely required by humans, which is why we will create it from protein when it is absent in the diet.  Are you suggesting that the fruit (fructose) available in summer is somehow unpaleo or unhealthy?  I would suggest that anyone suggesting such a view may be looking at the picture too closely, and perhaps a more macroscopic and historic view of reality may well be in order. IOW, fruit ain't bad and fruit ain't what is causing massive health problems in peoples.  Grains and dairy most likely are the culprits.  Also, get out and get moving if you feel inclined to worry about such things.  Climb a rock, hunt a deer.  Swim from an alligator, gathers juniper berries.  Whatever you do, don't get too honed in on ideas that stray far from paleo basics.  No matter how convincing they may appar scientifically, they are probably not worries.  Worry is a killer in itself.  Live, eat, play, enjoy.  Repeat.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 05:00:35 am by Satya »

Offline wodgina

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2008, 02:20:52 pm »

Thanks for the link, it's a great blog with many interesting things to say. Especially about his idea's on gut bacteria affecting the brain and cravings, it really does make sense in regards to candida.



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Offline Nicola

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2008, 06:12:36 pm »
Glucose is absolutely required by humans, which is why we will create it from protein when it is absent in the diet.  Are you suggesting that the fruit (fructose) available in summer is somehow unpaleo or unhealthy?  I would suggest that anyone suggesting such a view may be looking at the picture too closely, and perhaps a more macroscopic and historic view of reality may well be in order. IOW, fruit ain't bad and fruit ain't what is causing massive health problems in peoples.  Grains and dairy most likely are the culprits.  Also, get out and get moving if you feel inclined to worry about such things.  Climb a rock, hunt a deer.  Swim from an alligator, gathers juniper berries.  Whatever you do, don't get too honed in on ideas that stray far from paleo basics.  No matter how convincing they may appar scientifically, they are probably not worries.  Worry is a killer in itself.  Live, eat, play, enjoy.  Repeat.

Fructose does cause problems just like many other "human foods"; just because you can eat them raw does not mean they are paleo and that means healthy... Perhaps that is why many "go out and get moving" insted of being able to focus on life! Diet will affect our behaviour...

Nicola


Satya

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 11:24:32 pm »
Fructose does cause problems just like many other "human foods"; just because you can eat them raw does not mean they are paleo and that means healthy... Perhaps that is why many "go out and get moving" insted of being able to focus on life! Diet will affect our behaviour...

Nicola,

I do not believe that an all carnivorous diet is one that we have evolved on for any length of time as a species.  High in animal foods, yes, but not devoid of plant matter.  Even the Inuit of recent times before civilization encroached ate fruit in summer and preserved it for winter.  When you think about having to depend on your environment for food, you can imagine that choice of foods is/was not always an option.  You have to eat to survive, and without farms to supply you, would you really turn down summer fruits because of the fear of some fructose?

Fructose may cause problems in high amounts for some people.  But for omnivores eating locally grown foods, I don't think that eating fruit when it is in season is a bad thing for many people.  I think some people on this board even eat a good amount of fruit year round without problem.  Of course, I would probably not do so well on a great amount of fruit daily, personally.  I eat seasonal, summer fruit maybe 5 servings a week perhaps at most.  But people here are probably health-conscious enough not to eat high fructose corn syrup (which is what Dr. Groves' diabetes article focused on), table sugar, and other processed foods with lots of sweetener.  I don't even eat bananas myself, but some people might enjoy them without problems.

My point is that we can vilify anything and find fault in it, or we can find a moderate approach.  We can stress out about the glycogen in muscle meat.  We can worry about eating too much fat, too little fat.  And I suppose the purpose of this group is to discuss these issues at length.  But at what point is it an obsession?  Did our ancestors fret about all of this?  To some extent perhaps.  For instance, when the animals available were lean, the tribe would be concerned about famine, and things we now call rabbit starvation.  But again, I don't think these same people, depending on the land and/or sea in their vicinity shunned fruit in season because they worried about fructose.  Many fruits are altered to be sweeter in the modern world, but berries, melons, tomatoes, cucumbers, coconut, avocados and many others are not sweet enough in reasonable amounts to fret about and can add nutrients and water to the diet.

And that is another consideration in itself.  How to get fresh water in survival situations?  It is a great concern.  In the desert, there are cacti and small animals with liquid.  I would definitely eat the fruit or the plant to hydrate myself when pumped in water was not available.

Second-opinions on fructose:
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/fructose-diabetes.html
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 04:49:06 am by Satya »

Offline Nicola

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2008, 04:43:09 am »

Offline protoject

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2008, 01:31:59 am »
I know that once I added more raw animal fat into my diet (NOT raw dairy though...) that the way my body reacts to sugars in fruit is different. It's like my body actually USES the sugars, instead of me getting diabetes insipidus.

Offline avalon

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 10:01:05 am »
Nicola,

I don't think you can compare prepared fruit drinks to Fruits hanging on a tree. And anyone, not suffering from an eating disorder, won't be binging on fruit all day- or, unless they are Fruitarian, which is not what you're talking about.

What we should be concerned about and is mentioned in that article is High Fructose Corn Syrup. That does not a fresh Papaya make.

And Satya, Wonderful Post!

Best wishes,
Avalon  :)

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 10:54:23 pm »
Speaking of Papaya...

A few weeks ago my wife came back home from her company's organic farm and with her she brought a TREE RIPENED organic Papaya!

It was the sweetest, tastiest, most refreshing, most filling papaya we ever had.

Tree ripened is a luxury we only get from time to time.  What I do know is organic and tree ripened fruits are absolutely outstanding and I am pretty sure these kinds of fruits kept our ancestors alive along with wild game.
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William

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008, 09:48:00 pm »


I do not believe that an all carnivorous diet is one that we have evolved on for any length of time as a species.  High in animal foods, yes, but not devoid of plant matter.  Even the Inuit of recent times before civilization encroached ate fruit in summer and preserved it for winter.


I cannot agree.
I have been in Inuit land, and never saw a tree there. Fruit grows on trees.


William

Offline wodgina

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2008, 10:08:35 pm »
I cannot agree.
I have been in Inuit land, and never saw a tree there. Fruit grows on trees.


William
I agree with both of you?
Where I live the amount of plant matter eaten would have been negligible. There's hardly any fruit/berries/seeds worth the energy in even trying to find them and the ones I've found are acrid or tasteless. The contribution to energy requirements or nutrition would have been insignificant compared to knocking a fat wallaby or echidna over the head.
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Satya

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2008, 12:24:22 am »
I cannot agree.
I have been in Inuit land, and never saw a tree there. Fruit grows on trees.

Fruits grow on shrubs and vines, too.  Cranberries grow up north.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cranberrymap.jpg

My statement was: "High in animal foods, yes, but not devoid of plant matter."  I think people will exploit any available food source and not restrict themselves to animal foods only.  The Inuit dried cranberries, consumed seaweed and preserved sorrel in seal oil in the 1930s, according to Weston Price's book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.  These were not eaten in huge amounts, obviously, but they did not shun them either.  That is my point: traditional cultures will not shun plant foods as they are too close to famine to turn their noses up at plants.  And they used them as medicinals too.  We moderns can go for zero carb because we can CHOOSE to do so - iow, the grovery store is a short trip away.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2008, 01:06:27 am »
The thing is, though, the northernmost Inuits wouldn't have had any access to cranberries etc. at all, being merely surounded by ice and lichen-covered rocks. So, lichen/moss would be the only plant-matter they could easily get hold of, presumably.
I do agre that the southern Inuits in Canada proper would have had access to plant-foods.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2008, 06:50:58 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline Sully

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2008, 03:14:26 am »
I think it was bramble berries that some Inuits froze to preserve and eat. I'm sure there was others.

I personally believe hunter gatherers were opportunist. No they would not attempt to survive on only berries. But if they found a patch, they would eat it. Fruit doesn't run away, like live animals. So when it came in season, I'm sure the easily acquired food would not be passed by.

I settle this issue by eating only plants I can gather myself. The plants I find the most where i am located are fruits. Leaves, nuts and roots, are not as plentiful as fruits where I am at.

Offline bluesandteals

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2008, 01:45:15 pm »
I know that once I added more raw animal fat into my diet (NOT raw dairy though...) that the way my body reacts to sugars in fruit is different. It's like my body actually USES the sugars, instead of me getting diabetes insipidus.
Thank you for the comment about how adding more raw animal fat into your diet affected how you react to sugars.  I too have found the same thing. 

Offline pookietooth

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2008, 01:21:07 am »
I think in most of human history, fructose was a rare treat, not very easy to find. We have bred fruits to have a lot more sugar in them than they used to.

Offline Squall

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2008, 07:49:11 am »
I do not believe that an all carnivorous diet is one that we have evolved on for any length of time as a species.

I think "all-carnivorous" should probably be qualified better. Strictly speaking, I'd say your statement is right, Satya. We certainly do have the ability to easily digest and assimilate small amounts of plant and fruit matter. But whether a member of a paleolithic society was all-carnivorous or omnivorous probably had more to do with season. In areas with harsh winters, I would imagine that in wintertime the daily staple was some form of preserved meat/fat ration, possibly intentionally left over from big-game hunts in the fall. Then in the spring and summer, the diet would have switched to omnivorous as small game proliferated and berries were ripe. Mind you, this example better fits the setting for northern Europe/Canada, than say savanna hunters in Africa. But I feel safe saying that wide swings in diet were conditional on seasons and that with few exceptions, no society was 100% carnivore.

I don't think it would be a bad pursuit to follow something akin to this either: changing dietary styles with the season. However, I also don't think that one should consider just the season. If some paleolithic societies were exclusively carnivorous during harsh winters, it could just have been due to much lower activity levels. What is there to do really when you can't hunt or gather? I seem to keep coming across a growing body of anecdotal evidence saying that all-carnivorous diets do wonders for preventing muscle wasting. Consequently, the same societies may have eaten considerably more berries (not apples, bananas, or oranges) and possibly tubers in less lean times, when they would have been more active. Maybe tailoring dietary swings would be better off according to activity levels? But then it might be prudent to give your system a "break" occasionally in the form of an artificial "season". I don't know if we have a physiological calendar regarding a rhythm in seasons, but if we do, being exclusively omnivorous or exclusively carnivorous all of your life may be problematic (but not as bad as being exclusively anti-carnivorous ;))
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2008, 05:51:09 pm »
Considering there was an Ice Age in Palaeo times, that does support the notion of a near-zero-carb or all-zero-carb diet. Although, there's other conflicting evidence against that idea, as well.
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Offline Nicola

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2008, 06:02:51 am »

Offline Nicola

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2009, 08:54:32 pm »

Offline invisible

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2009, 03:51:52 pm »
Even if limited ammounts of plant food were available, does this mean it was actually eaten? I don't really buy the idea that plants were eaten seasonally when meat was scarce. When meat would be scarce, likely plants were even scarcer - even if they weren't I don't think it is important. Humans were also excellent hunters so if any animals were eating meat, it would be humans. Lions are known to eat some plants when facing starvation, but the fact that they do does not mean that they should continue to do so if meat is available. In fact I have read of lions in captivity living on vegetarian diets for years. Whether humans did eat plants seasonally when meat was scarce does not mean that we should choose to eat plants if given the option.

William

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2009, 01:34:36 am »
Even if limited ammounts of plant food were available, does this mean it was actually eaten?

I agree.
How's this for a postulate: Berry comes from the word bear, meaning that berries are what bears eat in order to become fat so that we can kill them and eat that fat, leaving the meat for the dogs/wolves/foxes.

It is a grand design.

I have about 20 lb. of wild blueberries in my freezer, and no desire to eat them since going zero carb/pemmican.

Satya

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2009, 06:34:05 am »
Fructose studies are really demonstrating the ill effects of it on humans.  All of the fruit we eat has been made super sweet and big via breeding techniques.  They are half fructose generally.  Even cranberries are larger than they were when I was a kid.

Check this from Whole Health Source which shows that fructose is much more harmful to the body than glucose.

William brings up an excellent point about whether or not fruit was eaten much in the Paleolithic, where it was always colder than now (varying by how much colder) and where the big mega game animals were plentiful.  And then factor in the fact that going zero carb DOES decrease the appetite for plant foods, and you have to wonder how much of this modern fruit eating is just a sugar addiction.  Certainly we need nothing from fruit that we can't get from meat.  Vitamin C is only needed in huge quantities when carbs are eaten in huge quantities (since the molecules are similar), and Stefansson proved that all meat was healthy decades ago.

Offline Nicola

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Re: Glucose / Fructose
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2009, 03:22:35 am »
Inflammation threw fructose

Fruit juices are another fraud. The juice (fructose) should be removed and discarded. The fructose is very unhealthy. Mice are given type II diabetes for research purposes by feeding them fructose (especially high fructose corn syrup.) Fructose is avoided in the beef industry, because it causes rapid cross-linking of collagen and leads to tough meat. The same thing happens in humans who eat fructose, it causes aging of the skin and other tissues.

http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/search/label/inflammation

Nicola

 

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