Author Topic: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo  (Read 6017 times)

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Offline RawZi

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Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« on: December 21, 2009, 04:40:23 am »
    My son was very sick, something neurological due to some toxin.  He finally decided to go raw.  He's doing his own way.  It is working better than semi cooked (vegan) was for him, and better than raw vegan and frutarian was for him.  What he's been doing is living on unheated honey, biodynamic raw butter, biodynamic raw milk and raw organic apples, not much else except a few organic seedless grapes etc.

    Anyway, he cheated yesterday.  He ate a bunch of Indian naan bread with raw biodynamic butter on top after the bread cooled.  Today first his left kidney then both kidneys started to be sore to the touch. 

    Any ideas of an herb to take or how long this new pain will last?     
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Offline djr_81

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 05:06:25 am »
I get the same symptom when I ingest something I'm allergic to.
If it's stemmed from an intolerance or allergy the body gets over the initial issues in a maximum of 4 days.
Let him ride it out. It'll steel his determination to stay the right course. :)

On a side note, does he not eat anything as a protein source? I'd have concerns about that in the long-term.
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Offline RawZi

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 05:40:09 am »
    He eats biodynamic raw cheese, yogurt and kefir, but more the milk and butter, especially butter.  He won't touch eggs, fish, poultry, meat or their derivatives as food (or soaps etc).  He doesn't eat beans or nuts at all.  He has had bad reactions to soy years ago too.  On rare occasion he'll eat a little seaweed or avocado, but kind of reacts to them as well.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 07:20:09 am »
Since he's eating honey, would he be interested in eating more like John the Baptist (locusts and honey) and eat insects? What about mineral water, greens and berries (especially wild berries and other local, wild fruits)? He's restricted himself so much it will be difficult to avoid deficiencies in the long run and he is at risk for dental problems in the relatively short run (that tends to be one of the early symptoms that those on meat-deficient diets report, along with lethargy, malaise, mental fog, depression, poor sleep quality, morning aches and pains, etc.).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 07:36:45 am »
If I get kidney pain I will go on an orange juice fast or drink avocado leaves tea.
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Offline raw

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2009, 11:26:49 am »
dear rawzi/ i know the point when my body wants to cheat. that gives me signals that my body doesn't get enough nutrients. i just wonder that why he doesn't eat any raw animal proteins? i hope, he's feeling all right now.
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Offline RawZi

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2009, 01:38:47 pm »
dear rawzi/ i know the point when my body wants to cheat. that gives me signals that my body doesn't get enough nutrients. i just wonder that why he doesn't eat any raw animal proteins? i hope, he's feeling all right now.

    My husband really wanted to eat out at a cooked restaurant with me.  I went, we brought back naan.  There were two, one garlic, one plain, both large.  It's a small family owned restaurant and they make them fresh.  He hadn't eaten cooked anything in a long time.  He ate most of the plain one, and did not touch the garlic.  A friend of ours at an ashram eats just like my son, and recommended homemade chapatis to add to his diet, as he had too to his own recently.  After my son's experience with this, the kidney sensitivity has not gone yet, he said he will wait much longer before trying another cooked food again.  We were at his doctor's today too.  We told the doctor about the bread incident and its result.  The doctor said since my son is so sensitive to new things and changes in routine that he just has to be careful.  

    He is resistant to eating raw animal proteins; because he has gone so long without them and does not want to break his record, waste the time he's done it so far as he puts it.  Also because he adores all animals (except not so much most insects), so he finds it almost impossible to wrap his mind around causing any harm to any individual animal.        

If I get kidney pain I will go on an orange juice fast or drink avocado leaves tea.

    He quit orange juice, as he found it too acidic.  I heard that before about avocado tea, that it is strengthening.  I will suggest these things to him.  How about orange leaf tea?

Since he's eating honey, would he be interested in eating more like John the Baptist (locusts and honey) and eat insects? What about mineral water, greens and berries (especially wild berries and other local, wild fruits)? He's restricted himself so much it will be difficult to avoid deficiencies in the long run and he is at risk for dental problems in the relatively short run (that tends to be one of the early symptoms that those on meat-deficient diets report, along with lethargy, malaise, mental fog, depression, poor sleep quality, morning aches and pains, etc.).

    Actually yes, he is interested in eating insects, but has made no moves in that direction.  He also had a severe Vitamin D deficiency in his blood while vegan, like none the head of endocrinology ever saw I fear.  D deficiency also runs in his father's side of the family.  The D deficient family members also limited their diets to maybe four foods or less.  The dairy seems to be helping him recover from that.  He does eat some organic berries and he was eating organic salad and stopped (but is considering starting again).  When I find wild edible plants I bring them to him and he eats them.  How do we get sufficient locusts?  Have you tried eating them?
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2009, 05:51:44 pm »
I suppsoe you could start farming insects. There are things like ant-farms etc. But, realistically speaking, meat-eating isn't necessarily cruel - I mean hunter-gatherers used to venerate and even  worship  their prey.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2009, 08:07:42 am »
...    He is resistant to eating raw animal proteins; because he has gone so long without them and does not want to break his record,
Why does he not want to "break his record"?

Quote
Also because he adores all animals (except not so much most insects), so he finds it almost impossible to wrap his mind around causing any harm to any individual animal.
Tyler's right about hunter-gatherers (and other traditional peoples) believing that meat eating is not cruel. For example, in the Lakota culture buffalo (American bison) is traditionally eaten, yet my understanding is the buffalo are looked upon as beings who have spirits and even as their relatives. However, people who believe that meat eating is wrong tend to be very difficult to convince, even when it affects their health negatively.

Quote
   How do we get sufficient locusts?  Have you tried eating them?
I don't know how other people do it, but when I needed insects for science class I used a net attached by a wire to a broomstick to catch them. It was pretty easy.

I've never tried eating them and don't have to, because I eat meat and organs, but if someone offered me one I would eat it. I think I would cut off the hind legs though, as they look tough. If they were good enough for John the Baptist to live on, I figure they're at least worth trying.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2009, 08:24:56 am »
My father in law ate locusts when they infested the their farm.  This was very seasonal and rare.  Since the bugs ate all their produce, they had no other recourse but to eat the bugs. 
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Offline RawZi

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2009, 09:09:53 am »
If it's stemmed from an intolerance or allergy the body gets over the initial issues in a maximum of 4 days.

    The kidney sensitivity is getting better.  The four day thing, djr, seems to be proving right.

Why does he not want to "break his record"?
... However, people who believe that meat eating is wrong tend to be very difficult to convince, even when it affects their health negatively.
...

    People live their life one way, something they believe in, especially when it comes to "ethical" (at least toward cows etc) eating, it's hard to change a mind (or soul?) that is like that, and may not be worth it if it's really too much for them.  It's SAD that society puts raw meat as a perversion.  I know sparing a cow's life to the world's detriment is or can be considered a perversion.  I don't see that it will help for me to act disrespectful of his beliefs.  He won't change if I tell him his view is wrong or anything like that.  He has met people like me too, as far as they eat raw meat, mostly people just starting it.  He respects hunting the most, especially the endurance hunting.  

    He fully understands raw is the healthy way even from his own experience.  He has not eaten raw meat, but saw my health improve and he's bright and understands what we discuss about health.  He has accidentally tried (in all probably less than two teaspoons): cooked egg white, cooked beef and cooked shellfish and got terrible reactions from each.

I suppsoe you could start farming insects. There are things like ant-farms etc.

    I will look into that soon.  I am thinking about how to do it too.  

    I wonder what the neighbors would do if I had insects living somewhat happily in a residential area that we ate and the neighbors then found out.  Grasshoppers are pretty.  Maybe that would help their views, in case.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2009, 09:17:06 am »
...I don't see that it will help for me to act disrespectful of his beliefs.  He won't change if I tell him his view is wrong or anything like that. ...
Yes, you're likely correct, for "a man convinced agin his will is of the same opinion still."
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline djr_81

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Re: Need some opinions on something not totally paleo
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2009, 11:21:09 am »
   The kidney sensitivity is getting better.  The four day thing, djr, seems to be proving right.
Not a big surprise if he's not ingesting gluten regularly and then has some bread.
At least you know his immune system is working like it should. :)

I think looking into farming insects is a very good idea.
As I mentioned elsewhere you can get mealworms or crickets at a pet store and breed a generation or two then start using them as a protein source. I wouldn't touch the things until you have turned over the group at least once; they're kept in foul conditions at the stores and you wouldn't want that in your body.
Just be careful with farming them; if he's too involved and starts developing affection for his "pets" he might decide he doesn't want to pursue this option either. We've gotten that way with snails we've been raising for puffer fish and a turtle.
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