Salt and Hydrochloric Acid

[Hans89]

Hello,

let me introduce myself real quick. I've been on the Primal Diet for about two months now, previously I did WAP-style eating. I live in Germany, and I don't know if there is anybody else who is doing the Primal Diet at all...

my post is very long, so I made the most important parts bold.

 Some nights ago, I woke up with a bloated belly and a lot of pain. Because of that I went to the bathroom, had diarrhoea and had to throw up. Then went to bed again. After a little while, the pain came back and increased until I had to throw up again and had diarrhoea again. The whole process went on for the about half the night and half the next day and involved a lot of pain.
 From that time on, I wasn't able to eat anything without feeling bloated and experiencing pain. The pain was strong right after eating, then got less and after some hours, it became the worst. I also experienced diarrhoea and very smelly flatulence. I felt generally weak and uncomfortable.

I'm almost sure that the problem was a lack of hydrochloric acid. When I threw up that night, I did not have a sensation of acid. I have had similar experiences of feeling sick and bloated, having to throw up and diarrhoea at night me a couple of times before I started the primal diet. However, then I had a strong acid feeling in my throat when throwing up, and after throwing up the pain subsided.

So yesterday I tried taking sea salt, which is supposed to be bad for me.... but that really helped me to finally digest some food! And now I can't digest anything without taking salt with it.

The problem however, that I have now, is that I get a headache, feel tired and feel brainfog as well. Aajonus writes that most headaches are related to salt consumption. So I'm really in a quandary here... I choose headache over the inability to digest anything, but I don't like the headache / fatigue / brainfog!


Some additional info / question:
I cannot handle dairy well, even butter, as it makes me bloated (with or without honey.) I also have trouble digesting fibrous food and sweet fruit. Both of them and dairy give me bad gas. In the past, I have always had serious problems with my digestive system, stomach aches were frequent. This somewhat improved with eating less dietary fiber. Years ago I have also taken medication for Heliobactor pilori.
In addition, a week or two ago I ate a whole mature coconut in one day after reading about the benefits of coconut. My juicer (a hand held model) does not produce any significant amount of coconut cream when juicing the meat, so I just ate it. That was a mistake, as on the next day, I had a lot of stool and I could see the coconut in there. After that, I have had some flatulence and some discomfort in my stomach. Could it be that this alkalinized my digestive system so much that now I'm unable to produce sufficient hypochloric acid?

Sorry about the length!!!
Any input will be greatly appreciated.

[KD]

hmm, well firstly have you tried talking HCL tabs? taking 1-2 tabs is a way of actually testing your levels, and if there is no effect, you can supplement meals with the tabs, at least for a short term solution.

I think alot of folks here might tend to blame at least some of your symptoms on the Primal Diet itself, but my experiences are that I never experience digestive pain or discomfort, but do go through periods of diarrhea, which for me do make sense as intestinal detox. But it seems it might be more in the way of intolerance and troubleshooting the foods themselves for you. I'd say for now if the salt is in fact helping you eat, then also don't fret about it in the short term.

have you tried animal fats instead of butter?

[lex_rooker]

Hans,
Salt is a hotly debated topic.  There seems to be some evidence that the chloride ions necessary for the production of hydrochloric acid comes mainly from salt.  Our blood also has about the same saline density as sea water.  There is also evidence that salt was traded throughout history and was considered so valuable that it was used as currency.  I think Dr. Barry Groves at http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/index.html was the first place I read about the necessity of salt in the diet.  My own experience has also shown that adding about 1/3 gram of salt (just a pinch) to my food per day solved a lot of problems with digestion as well as muscle cramping.

On the other side of the argument, the purists insist that if we are eating the proper food then salt should not be necessary.  We have few records and little substantial evidence of salt use going back beyond 10,000-12,000 years, but what we do know about the neolithic period starting around 12,000 years ago, salt has played an important role.  Some feel this is due to the fact that at about this period in history we corrupted our diet with inappropriate foods like grains, thus requiring supplementation with salt.

I doubt that anyone knows for sure one way or the other.  I, for one, have found salt helpful and therefore have chosen to include it in my diet.  As for the pronouncements of AV and other dietary gurus, I'm all about doing what works, not blindly following some guru's idea of perfection.  I've often found that what one guru says another contradicts, and much of the time gurus contradict themselves as they find that what they said yesterday isn't working as they predicted today.  Even worse, I've personally been the victim of self pronounce gurus that weren't even honest enough to admit that they weren't following their own advice because they found it didn't work, but were to embarrassed to admit it.

As for taking HCL tabs, these certainly weren't around in Paleo times but we know for sure that salt was.  If salt solves the problem then I'd use a little salt before taking HCL tabs.

Lex

[William]

I've found that salt is necessary when eating cooked meat.
I think that this is so because the salt in meat is in a form no longer bio-available when heated.
Based on taste. Salt on raw tastes repulsive.
BTW I used only Celtic or other dried seawater.

[Hans89]

hmm, well firstly have you tried talking HCL tabs? taking 1-2 tabs is a way of actually testing your levels, and if there is no effect, you can supplement meals with the tabs, at least for a short term solution.

I didn't even know that something like that existed... thank you.

have you tried animal fats instead of butter?

I've stopped taking butter because I don't like it and it makes me feel bad (I think.) I mainly eat lamb suet and the fat from around the stomach. Also bone marrow when I can get it.

I've found that salt is necessary when eating cooked meat.

I haven't eaten cooked meat for two months...




@Lex

Thank you for the input. I had read about the necessity of taking salt several times, so I was sceptical to begin with, but cast that aside for the time it worked. PD seems to work for a lot of people so I thought I should follow it in every aspect to give it a fair trial.

Right now I have to take almost a teaspoon of salt with every meal so that it doesn't hurt... If it only takes as little as you say later, I'll gladly take the salt because that experience wasn't something I'd want to repeat.

[Paleo Donk]

If, as Lex says blood is nearly the same salinity as ocean water then could it be optimal to drink some blood? Don't carnivores consume the blood of the prey right after a kill. If we aren't getting the salt and other nutrients from the blood then we would need to add it from another source. amirite?

[RawZi]

If, as Lex says blood is nearly the same salinity as ocean water then could it be optimal to drink some blood? Don't carnivores consume the blood of the prey right after a kill. If we aren't getting the salt and other nutrients from the blood then we would need to add it from another source. amirite?

    I don't know if you're right, but yes when carnivores hunt the lap up the blood.  I read that the "blood" that comes out of meat you buy is not blood, that it's myoglobin colored intersitial fluid and cytosol.  Have you tried actual blood?  I have always believed in wholeness therefore whole foods.  It does make sense that if we eat animals we might do best to drink the blood too along with them.  Maybe the intersitial fluid and cytosol would be enough to add.  Maybe it's totally different, and to what degree: I don't know.  

    Maybe drinking blood could help Lex with his kidney stones?

[William]

I've stopped taking butter because I don't like it and it makes me feel bad (I think.) I mainly eat lamb suet and the fat from around the stomach. Also bone marrow when I can get it.

You might consider making ghee - some of us who cannot eat butter have tried it and found it good. Here is the best info on making it IMHO:http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/rwgully/downloads/Ghee.pdf

Right now I have to take almost a teaspoon of salt with every meal so that it doesn't hurt... If it only takes as little as you say later, I'll gladly take the salt because that experience wasn't something I'd want to repeat.

Maybe you can get edible blood würst? (not available in Canada) Or meat that still has the blood in it?

[RawZi]

You might consider making ghee - some of us who cannot eat butter have tried it and found it good. Here is the best info on making it IMHO:http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/rwgully/downloads/Ghee.pdf


Maybe you can get edible blood würst? (not available in Canada) Or meat that still has the blood in it?

    I like my butter cultured and my blood fresh.  Ghee might be good when you're afraid in the beginning and blutwurst, how old is that?  Do they precook it?  Does it have preservatives it it?  Rice or other grain?  Paleo people and animals drink/drank the blood first and saved the meat for later.  It works out best this way.  

    I'm kidding!  No I'm not.  This is a weird forum sometimes.  We all should make some reasonable sense.  Blutworst just sounds the worst to me.

[djr_81]

I've wanted to drink blood for a while now.
It just seems like a very logical addition to a truly carnivorous diet and must be loaded with a lot of beneficial nutrients to stimulate the blood.
I agree with you Paleo Donk. I add a dash of salt to my food as I feel best when I add it. If I had a bit of blood instead it'd function much the same but in a more whole and assimilable manner.

[William]

 I'm kidding!  No I'm not.  This is a weird forum sometimes.  We all should make some reasonable sense.  Blutworst just sounds the worst to me.

I did write "edible". There's lots in Canada, probably in U.S.A., but it's not edible on a paleo diet.

[Hans89]

You might consider making ghee - some of us who cannot eat butter have tried it and found it good. Here is the best info on making it IMHO:http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/rwgully/downloads/Ghee.pdf

I know Ghee. But why should I make it? It's not raw afaik. Do you believe it would help with the problem?
I mean I'm not really looking for an alternative fat source, I want to find a solution to the digestion problem.

Maybe you can get edible blood würst? (not available in Canada) Or meat that still has the blood in it?

Blutwurst is boiled, so unfortunately not.

[Hans89]

   I like my butter cultured and my blood fresh.  Ghee might be good when you're afraid in the beginning and blutwurst, how old is that?  Do they precook it?  Does it have preservatives it it?  Rice or other grain?  Paleo people and animals drink/drank the blood first and saved the meat for later.  It works out best this way.  

    I'm kidding!  No I'm not.  This is a weird forum sometimes.  We all should make some reasonable sense.  Blutworst just sounds the worst to me.

Where and how do you get your blood? I can only imagine getting it when I butcher myself, which is something I would like to try, but not an option to do on a regular basis, at least not for the next few years.

[RawZi]

    I got it from a rancher/slaughterer.  I can't get it often and not sure I want to.  Blood has such a stigma, probably cause it's the realist food on Earth!  I mean it's blood gosh darn it!  It's what feeds animals' cells.

[Paleo Donk]

Yea, where the hell do you get blood in the states? The juice that drips out from frozen slankers cuts as they are thawing is extremely tasty. I'll defrost a few pounds worth at the same time overnight in a bowl and have several ounces of juicy goodness ready for me the next day. I assume that is not blood like someone mentioned above but would be pretty nice if it tasted like that.

Can anyone who's had blood describe the taste?

[Hans89]

    I got it from a rancher/slaughterer.  I can't get it often and not sure I want to.  Blood has such a stigma, probably cause it's the realist food on Earth!  I mean it's blood gosh darn it!  It's what feeds animals' cells.

Do you get it on the same day as the kill? Or later? Doesn't it clot? Do you get it in a mason jar?

Sorry for these questions, but I totally have no idea of these things.

[goodsamaritan]

Hello,

let me introduce myself real quick. I've been on the Primal Diet for about two months now, previously I did WAP-style eating. I live in Germany, and I don't know if there is anybody else who is doing the Primal Diet at all...

my post is very long, so I made the most important parts bold.

 Some nights ago, I woke up with a bloated belly and a lot of pain. Because of that I went to the bathroom, had diarrhoea and had to throw up. Then went to bed again. After a little while, the pain came back and increased until I had to throw up again and had diarrhoea again. The whole process went on for the about half the night and half the next day and involved a lot of pain.
 From that time on, I wasn't able to eat anything without feeling bloated and experiencing pain. The pain was strong right after eating, then got less and after some hours, it became the worst. I also experienced diarrhoea and very smelly flatulence. I felt generally weak and uncomfortable.

I'm almost sure that the problem was a lack of hydrochloric acid. When I threw up that night, I did not have a sensation of acid. I have had similar experiences of feeling sick and bloated, having to throw up and diarrhoea at night me a couple of times before I started the primal diet. However, then I had a strong acid feeling in my throat when throwing up, and after throwing up the pain subsided.

So yesterday I tried taking sea salt, which is supposed to be bad for me.... but that really helped me to finally digest some food! And now I can't digest anything without taking salt with it.

The problem however, that I have now, is that I get a headache, feel tired and feel brainfog as well. Aajonus writes that most headaches are related to salt consumption. So I'm really in a quandary here... I choose headache over the inability to digest anything, but I don't like the headache / fatigue / brainfog!


Some additional info / question:
I cannot handle dairy well, even butter, as it makes me bloated (with or without honey.) I also have trouble digesting fibrous food and sweet fruit. Both of them and dairy give me bad gas. In the past, I have always had serious problems with my digestive system, stomach aches were frequent. This somewhat improved with eating less dietary fiber. Years ago I have also taken medication for Heliobactor pilori.
In addition, a week or two ago I ate a whole mature coconut in one day after reading about the benefits of coconut. My juicer (a hand held model) does not produce any significant amount of coconut cream when juicing the meat, so I just ate it. That was a mistake, as on the next day, I had a lot of stool and I could see the coconut in there. After that, I have had some flatulence and some discomfort in my stomach. Could it be that this alkalinized my digestive system so much that now I'm unable to produce sufficient hypochloric acid?

Sorry about the length!!!
Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Now you know salt was a mere remedy.

Do some liver flushes.
Take henry bieler's soup.
Juice some veggies.
All these are liver improvement, bile improvement, digestion improvement stuff.
Bieler's soup is superior to salt.
And when you got things going, raw meat, blood, liver, are superior to salt and will keep you going.

[RawZi]

    Next day.  I kept it refrigerated.  Took about eight days to clot (but had been getting slightly thicker day by day).  Yes.

Can anyone who's had blood describe the taste?

    Like inside a healthy body.  Like if you're real clean inside and out and bit your lip.

[djr_81]

Yea, where the hell do you get blood in the states?

I'd personally save some while bleeding a carcass of a fresh kill. Throw a tub under the deer while it's hanging from the tree and it'd fill pretty quick.

[TylerDurden]

For god's sake, ignore William's dangerous recommendation of ghee. Pasteurised butter is well-known to cause far greater allergenic effects than raw butter, and, despite many very dubious claims, it still contains lactose and casein inside to a minimal extent, which means anyone who is hypersensitive to those or to milk in general will still be affected and will get even worse, long-term, because of the nasty effects of pasteurisation.

As for blood, it doesn't taste of much if from raw grassfed meats, but it tastes very rich and nutrient-dense when I get it from my lovely raw wild hare carcasses. Like an iron-rich fruit-juice almost.

[TylerDurden]

My advice, go rawpalaeo for now, add some HCL tablets(there are so many ways that primal dieters develop health-problems, such as overeating or drinking lots of veggie-juice or drinking raw dairy etc., that rawpalaeo is a safer bet).
Salt was only used in Neolithic times to add taste to some cooked meats and mainly to preserve meats from rotting. Salt causes high blood-pressure and is very nasty long-term, so avoid it like the plague.

[William]

For god's sake, ignore William's dangerous recommendation of ghee. Pasteurised butter is well-known to cause far greater allergenic effects than raw butter, and, despite many very dubious claims, it still contains lactose and casein inside to a minimal extent, which means anyone who is hypersenstivie to those or to milk in general will still be affected and will get even worse, long-term, because of the nasty effects of pasteurisation.

Ignore Tyler's advice on ghee; he cannot tell the difference from butter.

Ghee is used as a necessary fat by those who react badly to butter, and those who can't get enough edible beef fat.

[Hans89]

My advice, go rawpalaeo for now, add some HCL tablets(there are so many ways that primal dieters develop health-problems, such as overeating or drinking lots of veggie-juice or drinking raw dairy etc., that rawpalaeo is a safer bet).
Salt was only used in Neolithic times to add taste to some cooked meats and mainly to preserve meats from rotting. Salt causes high blood-pressure and is very nasty long-term, so avoid it like the plague.

How should I go about that rawpaleo... Could you briefly tell me what that means? I don't take dairy in any shape or form now... I do drink vegetable juices (one glass in the morning), eat like 3-4 large tomatoes, eat raw meat twice a day, 6-8 eggs over the day, eating two at a time, a little fruit at times, and raw lamb fat and raw honey with every meal. Sometimes nuts. I eat potatoes or rice when I feel the need for starchy food.

[RawZi]

    I think in Germany and in Poland you can buy blood from the butcher to make blutwurst.  They call it cooking grade blood.  I heard you stir it and stir it cooking.  Maybe you could drink that blood.  I don't know any German or Polish butchers to get it from here.

[Hans89]

    I think in Germany and in Poland you can buy blood from the butcher to make blutwurst.  They call it cooking grade blood.  I heard you stir it and stir it cooking.  Maybe you could drink that blood.  I don't know any German or Polish butchers to get it from here.

Thank you, I will give this a try when I get the chance. Though I don't want to go to the normal butcher as I believe they only have meat (and I guess blood) from conventionally raised animals....