Author Topic: who was the healthiest tribe  (Read 25849 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2010, 09:57:49 am »
Hi Treisee, welcome to this forum. In the words of the Lakota oyate (the allied people) ... "Mitakuye Oyasin" (we are all related).

It's nice we have someone from the Maori culture here who can speak from a first-hand perspective. I'm interested in Maori culture and would like to learn more. For example, do you have any Maori music you could share with us? I have a couple tunes I enjoy that are modern but sound like they contain Maori language and some traditional elements.

Did you know that Russell Means, a Lakota activist, started a "T.R.E.A.T.Y. Total Immersion School" system which he says "is based on the successes achieved by the Total Immersion School experience of the Maori Peoples in New Zealand"? Do you know anything about the  "Total Immersion School" system in New Zealand? Means claimed that the "successes were so remarkable [in New Zealand that] the government of New Zealand adopted the concept throughout the country and established over 180 Total Immersion Schools."

He talks about it a little in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3RhU6l_550
Here's the school system's website: http://treatyschool.org/

....The Maori people have been touted as Hunter Gatherers and Paleo type people. This is complete fallacy.
I haven't noticed anyone referring to the Maori as hunter gatherers in this thread, nor did Weston Price use the term "hunter gatherers" or "Paleo" people for the Maori, nor I think for anyone else, in his book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. Price did refer to pygmies and tribes of the Nile as "hunters". Are you referring perhaps to a different thread or a different book or article?

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But the one thing that has been over looked in many circles is the NZ Maoris weakness and addiction to Kumera, ....
Yes, I've heard of kumara. As I've mentioned elsewhere in this forum, after the advent of cooking, every people I've read about that had access to tubers took advantage of them, either by gathering wild tubers or growing domesticated ones or doing both.

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But if you wanted to learn about the true Paleolithic peoples of NZ then you could do a little research on the Mori Oris, the original people group who lived in NZ before the Maoris arrived, and of which were all wiped out by the aggressive new arrivals, the Maoris.
Thanks for the reference. Can you share more about them or do you have a good source to refer us to so we can learn more about the "Mori Ori"?

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So my pick for the "Best out of the 12" is... definitely not Maori.
Personally, I wouldn't even focus on one "best". It wasn't Weston Price's point and it has never been mine either. I agree with Daniel Quinn and Survival International that there is "no one right way to live." I think people generally fare better in the long run when they adapt to their local habitat and try to live somewhat in harmony with nature, rather than force a single way of life or even WOE on the entire planet.

Sláinte mhaith to you, which means "good health" in Irish (Gaeilge).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 10:06:25 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2010, 10:44:51 am »
I don't mind Kumera either, I really need to get to NZ again. Got friends and free accomdation at Raglan!

Kumera is sweet potato, right?

I'm experimenting with sweet potatos for 2 of my children to replace rice.
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Offline wodgina

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2010, 10:47:26 am »
Had some about 3 years ago. It was nice with raw butter. Too nice!
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2010, 11:07:53 am »
Had some about 3 years ago. It was nice with raw butter. Too nice!

It's not raw but it seems to be energy packed without the hypglycemic causing effects of fruit.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2010, 10:01:58 pm »
My 86 year old grandmother eats sweet potatoes regularly she seems to be in better health than most young people

I bake one for my children about twice a week and they seem to be doing very well,
I drench it in butter to balance the high carbs
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Offline wodgina

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2010, 10:05:01 pm »
the older generation can eat crap and get away with it. They are less damaged...epigenetics.


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Offline Iguana

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2010, 11:35:13 pm »
It's not raw but it seems to be energy packed without the hypglycemic causing effects of fruit.

The pink variety of sweet potatoes can be delicious raw, I'm very found of it. Polynesians call it kumara.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline sabertooth

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2010, 09:49:34 am »
I personally hail from a long lived race of hill fokes(Scott's, Irish, German with a splash of Indian) that settled the mountains of eastern Kentucky

Most of the people in my family tree lived into their late 80s or 90s on an old fashioned cooked diet,

The human body is amazing in its ability to adapt to any environment, and regenerate it self.
But its a delicate balance that has been upset by the addition of industrial toxins into the cooked food supply.

My grand parrents ate organic, before they knew what organic was, they trapped small game,had chickens hogs, made and drank moonshine, and still lived healthy into old age,

 My grandmother is 86 and eats meals like sweat potato casserole or
Boiled carrots, potatoes,onions, with a portion of cube steak. and snacks on slices of banana


She wasn't vaccinated with poisons at birth, so her liver could handle the toxins produced by cooking
Her father who lived into his 90s fed her farm fresh food from the time she was weened from the breast.

Not only old age but quality of life is important ,I sware that my people kept sharp mind into old age without any of the problems that are occurring in this younger generation

My other grand mother and father drink like fish and smoke like a train and eat crap, and are still alive and well into their mid 70s(they have bionic livers I swore its true)

There wasnt any health problems in the family until we were hit with the curse of vaccination and factory food.

Now nearly everyone I can think of is afflicted the the diseases of civilization( no exaggeration)

« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 09:57:42 am by sabertooth »
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Offline wodgina

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2010, 10:22:08 am »
I have to eat RZC else I feel like absolute shit.

My Dad will drink a pint of chocolate milk before a race and still win
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Offline Treisee

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2010, 08:27:56 pm »
Hi Treisee, welcome to this forum. In the words of the Lakota oyate (the allied people) ... "Mitakuye Oyasin" (we are all related).

Hello Phil, Ka pai (thank you) for the welcome, I have been here for around a year but have been a bit of a lurker really, just reading and soaking in what others have to say about this WOE.

Quote
Did you know that Russell Means, a Lakota activist, started a "T.R.E.A.T.Y. Total Immersion School" system which he says "is based on the successes achieved by the Total Immersion School experience of the Maori Peoples in New Zealand"? Do you know anything about the  "Total Immersion School" system in New Zealand?
I haven't heard of Russell Means, but I do know of the Total Immersion School system. It is very popular here in NZ with Maori families that are fluent speakers of Maori (called Te Reo) and who use it as their primary language at home. This is a video on one of the first TI Schools in NZ called Te Hoani Waititi. It is not far from where I live. I do not send my own children to a Maori school mainly because we are a homeschooling family, but if they would be attending a school of some sort then a TIS would be the first place I would send them. They are very effective in raising children up in their culture and language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxmdG-FDsNQ

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I haven't noticed anyone referring to the Maori as hunter gatherers in this thread, nor did Weston Price use the term "hunter gatherers" or "Paleo" people for the Maori, nor I think for anyone else, in his book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. Price did refer to pygmies and tribes of the Nile as "hunters". Are you referring perhaps to a different thread or a different book or article?

Weston Price didn't use the specific term "hunter gatherers" or "Paleo" people but he did title his first chapter in his book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration
as 'Why Seek Wisdom from Primitive Races'.  With a quick look online to a thesaurus on the word primitive, it comes up with;
Main Entry:   primitive
Part of Speech:   adjective
Definition:   barbaric, crude
Synonyms:    animal, atavistic, austere, barbarian, barbarous, brutish, childlike, fierce, ignorant, naive, natural, nonliterate, preliterate, raw, rough, rude, rudimentary, savage, simple, uncivilized, uncultivated, uncultured, underdeveloped, undeveloped, undomesticated, unlearned, unrefined, unsophisticated, untamed, untaught, untrained, untutored, vestigial, wild.

These synonyms speak to me of some of the characteristics that have been associated with hunter/gatherers and Paleo types of people and my using those specific words was just a way of speaking to those in this thread in general language that many would clearly understand especially when we are in a forum that is focused on Paleos and their way of eating.

The Maori people have been seen in NZ as hunters and gatherers. It is a part of the history and social structures of NZ to see Maori in this way, as it helps to clearly define the Maori into a class of peoples that is entirely different from the class of Europeans that arrived here later in history who would define themselves as cultured, sophisticated, educated and definitely not wild like they saw the Maoris as. So in effect I was not referring to any specific book or article but I was referring to an outlook and idea that is pervasive in the society of NZ as a whole.


Quote
Can you share more about them or do you have a good source to refer us to so we can learn more about the "Mori Ori"?

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en Is a great place to start study on Maoris, and there are pieces on the Mori Oris also.

Quote
I think people generally fare better in the long run when they adapt to their local habitat and try to live somewhat in harmony with nature.
I agree with you, and the Maori people are amazing specimens of health and vitality when they adapt to living here in NZ. As soon as they begin to eat the modern diet they quickly succumb to many diseases such as diabetes, obesity etc. NZ is a wonderful place to eat the Paleo way, we have easy access to pure and natural foods that are close by and in abundance, we can hunt, gather, raise and grow many beautiful delicious foods but sadly many Maori choose to turn away from them in favor of modern convenience food, we see it everywhere across the country.
Our government has undertaken many educational campaigns to try stem the tide of ill health that is plaguing our country, but we seem to be following in the same footsteps as America, and very few people are listening much less changing the way they eat and sadly it is prevalent in those of my own race.
 
A Maori saying;

He aha te painga o nga kai reka a te Pakeha - o te rare, o te keke, o te purini, o te winika, o te pepa, o te waipiro?
What benefit is there in the sweet food of the Pakeha - lollies, cakes, puddings, vinegar, pepper and alcohol?

Kahore kau
None at all

Pakeha= White man, New Zealander of European descent, Connotations of a flea.








Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: who was the healthiest tribe
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2010, 11:02:50 am »
Quote
It is a part of the history and social structures of NZ to see Maori in this way, as it helps to clearly define the Maori into a class of peoples that is entirely different from the class of Europeans that arrived here later in history who would define themselves as cultured, sophisticated, educated and definitely not wild like they saw the Maoris as. So in effect I was not referring to any specific book or article but I was referring to an outlook and idea that is pervasive in the society of NZ as a whole.
You did not state it that way originally, so I take it that your original words were a misstatement and this is what you really mean.

FYI: not only have I not noticed anyone saying here that the Maori were not farmers or didn't eat kumara, much less that the idea is pervasive here, I have actually seen Tyler mention kumara before you did (emphasis mine): "...it turns out that the severe collapse in the Maori population after the colonists arrived, appears to have been not only due to being shifted onto swamp-land etc.,like I stated earlier, but also to do with the fact that there was a large reduction in the amount of animal food available to them as a result of this transfer, so that they depended mostly on the grains in the ancient Maori diet, such as sweet potatoes(kumara),ferns etc., which caused a devastating collapse in health." (http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/the-avg-lifespan-life-expectancy-canard/msg18601/#msg18601)

So far your words have appeared to be more of an affirmation of what has been said here previously than a negation, very much in step with the statements that have been made here. Perhaps you were thinking of someone else other than this forum, such as NZ society, when you made your original critical comments.

Quote
He aha te painga o nga kai reka a te Pakeha - o te rare, o te keke, o te purini, o te winika, o te pepa, o te waipiro?
What benefit is there in the sweet food of the Pakeha - lollies, cakes, puddings, vinegar, pepper and alcohol?

Kahore kau
None at all
True.

Quote
Treisee wrote: But if you wanted to learn about the true Paleolithic peoples of NZ then you could do a little research on the Mori Oris, the original people group who lived in NZ before the Maoris arrived, and of which were all wiped out by the aggressive new arrivals, the Maoris.

PaleoPhil wrote: Can you share more about them or do you have a good source to refer us to so we can learn more about the "Mori Ori"?

Treisee wrote: http://www.teara.govt.nz/en Is a great place to start study on Maoris, and there are pieces on the Mori Oris also.
Thanks, here's what I found at that site:

From Demise of the myth of pre-Maori people (http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/ideas-of-maori-origins/5): "Duff’s excavations at the archaeological site of Wairau Bar in Marlborough established conclusively that the moa hunters were an early Maori people. He showed that differences between human tools found in different excavated layers could be explained by the evolution of a Maori culture, and were not evidence of a separate, pre-Maori people in New Zealand."
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 11:34:20 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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