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Offline Hans89

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paleo dairy
« on: May 21, 2010, 12:12:34 am »
Not sure if this has been brought up before... But I was thinking that paleo people could have eaten the contents of calves' stomaches that had half-digested milk in them. Actually calves' stomachs is where rennet comes from. So cheese might be the most natural of all dairy. I feel like I digest it best of all dairy and was wondering why, even though I don't eat it now because it's not ideal for me.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2010, 02:49:01 am »
Most people find raw butter the easiest to get used to of all types of raw dairy. Though many like me find even raw butter to be a problem.

As for the palaeo-dairy issue, first of all, hunter-gatherers seem to more often target the older animals(as they have more fat-layers). Plus, even if calves' stomachs were eaten sometimes, that does not guarantee that humans as a whole got adapted to raw dairy in any way.
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Offline kurite

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2010, 05:56:59 am »
No its been shown that as a whole, humans generally lose the ability to produce lactase after age 5.
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Offline chucky

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2010, 01:47:32 pm »
No its been shown that as a whole, humans generally lose the ability to produce lactase after age 5.

But therefore raw milk has plenty of bacteria that mimic the presence of lactase. For myself I still haven't figured out if I can tolerate raw milk. All my symptoms with foods are mental and not physical but also with some delay that makes it difficult.  Eliminating all vegetables and eating mainly meat has given me incredible good mental health and self-realization.

Offline Hans89

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2010, 04:12:11 pm »
Most people find raw butter the easiest to get used to of all types of raw dairy.

Yeah, I've read that many times... Interestingly I (now) find butter disgusting while cheese is still appealing to me sometimes.

Offline Hans89

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2010, 04:13:39 pm »
No its been shown that as a whole, humans generally lose the ability to produce lactase after age 5.

Well, properly aged cheese should be virtually lactose-free, so that shouldn't be the problem (I don't mean to deny other problems with dairy including cheese though.)

Offline kurite

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2010, 12:55:31 pm »
Well, properly aged cheese should be virtually lactose-free, so that shouldn't be the problem (I don't mean to deny other problems with dairy including cheese though.)
Although thats true, there is still small amounts of lactose and why would you want to eat something that is clearly non-paleo? If its simply that one food that you can't give up than eat it but I really don't believe that cheese mimics any paleo food.
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Offline Hans89

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2010, 05:23:03 pm »
Although thats true, there is still small amounts of lactose and why would you want to eat something that is clearly non-paleo? If its simply that one food that you can't give up than eat it but I really don't believe that cheese mimics any paleo food.

I'm in fact trying to give it up hoping that will help my gut heal, but sometimes I have given in to cravings. My point is just that (truly raw) cheese might be the most natural an digestible of all dairy, and I wanted to hear opinions on that. The problem, though, is that "raw cheese" is made from raw milk, but is heated somewhat in the production process I believe. Anyhow I guess I'll make and eat cheese sparingly once I'm content with my bowel health and see how that is... that might however take a long time or maybe never happen...

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2010, 02:36:31 am »
I'm interested in trying the most digestible and least antigenic dairy product(s) of all myself, to put the dairy-promoting claims to the test. My guess was that raw cultured butter would potentially be the least problematic. Do you think that raw cheese would be less problematic than raw cultured butter and if so, why? My understanding is that most cheeses contain casein and/or whey, which are both potential antigens, whereas butters generally contain much less casein or whey.
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Offline Hans89

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 03:28:09 pm »
I'm interested in trying the most digestible and least antigenic dairy product(s) of all myself, to put the dairy-promoting claims to the test. My guess was that raw cultured butter would potentially be the least problematic. Do you think that raw cheese would be less problematic than raw cultured butter and if so, why? My understanding is that most cheeses contain casein and/or whey, which are both potential antigens, whereas butters generally contain much less casein or whey.

Yes on casein, but I don't think there are more than traces of whey cause it gets taken out of the cheese during processing.

I don't really have a theoretical explanation other than that cheese seems to be more natural: Rennet is taken from calves stomaches and then used to make cheese, so it's like a calf - being the animal that milk is ideal for - predigested the milk for you. What I have is my experience that I do a lot better on (high quality) raw cheese than on raw butter, and that it tastes a lot better to me. Cheese is also the only dairy I crave occassionally. However, I only have one source of raw butter, and it's not cultured, so I can't be sure about that.

Offline RawZi

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 05:19:41 pm »
... My guess was that raw cultured butter would potentially be the least problematic. Do you think that raw cheese would be less problematic than raw cultured butter and if so, why? My understanding is that most cheeses contain casein and/or whey, which are both potential antigens, whereas butters generally contain much less casein or whey.

    Are you eating a high fat diet now?  If so, maybe butter would be best.  I find butter works very well for me.  AV says cream is hard to digest, but when I culture cream, I don't seem to get anything but benefit from it.  He also says cream is good for healing certain things.  Maybe the benefits weigh out the negatives for me.  Cheese doesn't have whey.  Whey is usually less allergenic than casein.  Maybe you could try cultured raw grass-fed whey?  Maybe you should get allergy testing first?  Maybe they can help you figure out whether it's more the casein or the whey you react to.
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alphagruis

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 06:16:04 pm »
My understanding is that most cheeses contain casein and/or whey, which are both potential antigens, whereas butters generally contain much less casein or whey.

Paleo Phil, what is your argument here ? All proteins, whether from dairy or meat or fish are antigens, from a technical point of view, namely trigger a reaction from immunity involved cells if they get into our blood stream in non (or improperly) digested form i.e. not cut into their amino acid or small peptide pieces.

I think the question boils down to this one: Are we capable or not to properly digest raw casein or other dairy proteins in cheese? This remains an open question in my opinion that should not be confused with our poor ability to digest plain milk in which the presence of lactose is well documented to impair digestion in a large fraction of adult humans.

In spite of the usual paleo argument that we are probably not well adapted to dairy, I believe that things are possibly not that simple and should remain open. For instance the same paleo argument applied to an African would conclude that he is not well adapted to meat from arctic sea or terrestrial mammals since his ancestors never ate this stuff. And obviously proteins from such mammals differ from those of african mammals or animals but AFAIK Africans also easily digest this "arctic" meat.

I have been on a 100% dairy free RPD for 11 years and 7 months and I'm now in very good shape. As you do I intend to test a bit the above question on myself because I'm just a curious scientist. I feel I'm now in a good position to acknowledge at least most of the short term possible adverse effects and I recently found a nice source of 100% grass fed raw butter and cheese. Cautiously I'll first try with butter since it's indeed essentially just fat.    
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 06:45:03 pm by alphagruis »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2010, 06:52:47 pm »
Minor other issue:- people have claimed that palaeo peoples ate the udders of cows to get the milk therein. This is actually absurd as the udders of cows have become artificially much, much larger than their original wild ancestors, the palaeo-era aurochs , due to inbreeding over millenia.So palaeo udders would have been too small to bother with, plus most of the milk generally gets created by sucking on the teat thus releasing milk-creating hormones, not an option in the palaeo era before domestication began, as animals would have to be live and domesticated for that.
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Offline RawZi

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 08:57:28 pm »
Are we capable or not to properly digest raw casein or other dairy proteins in cheese?

    AV says raw cheese is too dense to be a food (digestible).  He says to use raw cheese to absorb some toxins from our bodies.  He says cooking cheese makes all its nutrients available.  He also says eating raw cheese with unheated honey makes the cheese's minerals available.  He doesn't recommend cooking cheese, as all cooked food is more or less sub par.  I'm not saying anyone has to agree with him, but I think he may be right about cheese.
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carnivore

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 12:10:14 am »
Paleo Phil, what is your argument here ? All proteins, whether from dairy or meat or fish are antigens, from a technical point of view, namely trigger a reaction from immunity involved cells if they get into our blood stream in non (or improperly) digested form i.e. not cut into their amino acid or small peptide pieces.

I think the question boils down to this one: Are we capable or not to properly digest raw casein or other dairy proteins in cheese? This remains an open question in my opinion that should not be confused with our poor ability to digest plain milk in which the presence of lactose is well documented to impair digestion in a large fraction of adult humans.

Casein intolerance/allergy is also very well documented.

Quote
In spite of the usual paleo argument that we are probably not well adapted to dairy, I believe that things are possibly not that simple and should remain open. For instance the same paleo argument applied to an African would conclude that he is not well adapted to meat from arctic sea or terrestrial mammals since his ancestors never ate this stuff. And obviously proteins from such mammals differ from those of african mammals or animals but AFAIK Africans also easily digest this "arctic" meat.

The protein from milk is not at all comparable to the protein from meat!

Quote
I have been on a 100% dairy free RPD for 11 years and 7 months and I'm now in very good shape. As you do I intend to test a bit the above question on myself because I'm just a curious scientist. I feel I'm now in a good position to acknowledge at least most of the short term possible adverse effects and I recently found a nice source of 100% grass fed raw butter and cheese. Cautiously I'll first try with butter since it's indeed essentially just fat.    

I had to wait several months of eating regularly raw grassfed butter before noticing symptoms.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 12:31:33 am by carnivore »

Offline KD

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2010, 12:43:40 am »
I think there is some flaw here on exactly how rennet is used to make cheese. Just because it is an ingredient directly sourced from an animal, or contributes its enzymes to process milk (I wouldn't say digest), does not make it any different than if you combined any other type of animal source probiotic (like high meat) with butter fat and labeled that a paleo food.

on Rennet:
Traditional method

Dried and cleaned stomachs of young calves are sliced into small pieces and then put into saltwater or whey, together with some vinegar or wine to lower the pH of the solution. After some time (overnight or several days), the solution is filtered. The crude rennet that remains in the filtered solution can then be used to coagulate milk. About 1 gram of this solution can normally coagulate 2 to 4 litres of milk.

Today this method is used only by traditional cheese-makers in central Europe: Switzerland, Jura, France, Romania, and Alp-Sennereien in Austria.

Modern method

Deep-frozen stomachs are milled and put into an enzyme-extracting solution. The crude rennet extract is then activated by adding acid; the enzymes in the stomach are produced in an inactive form and are activated by the stomach acid. After neutralization of the acid, the rennet extract is filtered in several stages and concentrated until reaching a typical potency of about 1:15000; meaning 1 gram of extract would have the ability to coagulate 15000 grams (15 litres) of milk.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet

---

obviously even before actual cheese making, this is a less natural process than butter, which requires no additives or equipment.

Although, I agree with Alphagruis about the Africa comparison. I don't think one needs to argue dairy as a food ancestors a million years ago would eat, only whether it is compatible food, or supplies sufficient fats and minerals that may be difficult to get by some trying to mimic but not replicate what a paleolithic diet would consist of, in nutrition, not actual dietary contents. Whether it applies, and without side-effects is open to debate. But, merely saying it was non-existent practice, is not suitable proof, as cow and orange in that respect are as -or more- neolithic, as milk would have always existed in mamels, although likely not consumed by other species in any quantity.

alphagruis

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2010, 02:43:22 am »
   AV says raw cheese is too dense to be a food (digestible).  He says to use raw cheese to absorb some toxins from our bodies.  He says cooking cheese makes all its nutrients available.  He also says eating raw cheese with unheated honey makes the cheese's minerals available.  He doesn't recommend cooking cheese, as all cooked food is more or less sub par.  I'm not saying anyone has to agree with him, but I think he may be right about cheese.

IMO cheese is highly toxic in cooked form. In raw form it is certainly a very dense food that is traditionally well known to digest  more slowly than meat and this can now be traced back to the specific structure of caseins. What bothers me with cheese is also that it has usually a high salt content and is probably too palatable a food that is too easily overeaten.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 03:26:52 am by alphagruis »

alphagruis

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2010, 03:18:32 am »
KD, I agree with your comments.

Casein intolerance/allergy is also very well documented.

Well, it's documented with people on SAD with impaired digestion, leaky guts,  pasteurized dairy etc. I believe it's worth to reconsider this question in our RPD reference frame.

Quote
The protein from milk is not at all comparable to the protein from meat!

I agree that casein has a very specific structure that can only digest slowly as compared to muscle meat. Slow digestion may however have some advantages, such as a slow release of amino acids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casein

 Note that human milk also contains caseins (with similarly little tertiary structure difficult to denature) that babies manage nevertheless to digest properly.

Quote
I had to wait several months of eating regularly raw grassfed butter before noticing symptoms.

That's interesting. I look forward to find out whether or not my experience will confirm yours.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 03:23:48 am by alphagruis »

Offline Hans89

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2010, 05:20:29 am »
It's the same with me... fruit or dairy... when I take them in moderation at first I think "wow, it's ok now", but after a while symptoms start to show up.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2010, 07:46:35 am »
Yes on casein, but I don't think there are more than traces of whey cause it gets taken out of the cheese during processing.
Yes, there's probably not a lot of whey in the crumbly "farm" types of cheeses (though there is a significant amount in pot cheeses and a lot in whey cheeses), but it does me little good, because I appear to be cursed by casein and lactose as well, and even pasteurized dairy fat and ghee appear to scorn me. I doubt I'll do well on any form of raw dairy either, but I don't get seriously ill any more if I just have a little and I do enjoy experiments. Some people say not to complain or criticize if you haven't tried it, so I'll try it.

    Are you eating a high fat diet now?  If so, maybe butter would be best.  I find butter works very well for me.  AV says cream is hard to digest, but when I culture cream, I don't seem to get anything but benefit from it.  He also says cream is good for healing certain things.  Maybe the benefits weigh out the negatives for me.  Cheese doesn't have whey.  Whey is usually less allergenic than casein.  Maybe you could try cultured raw grass-fed whey?  Maybe you should get allergy testing first?  Maybe they can help you figure out whether it's more the casein or the whey you react to.
Yes, RawZi, I'm eating high fat. I've tried pasteurized cultured pastured butter without success, so I plan on trying raw cultured butter next. I've already had food allergy and intolerance tests and they found I had substantial antibodies (both the allergy type and the intolerance type) to casein, whey and lactose. I scored higher on many foods than most patients.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/paleo-dairy/msg36485/#msg36485
Paleo Phil, what is your argument here ?
Argument? No argument. I'm speaking for myself, not anyone else. I have reported numerous times about my intolerance of dairy products. I merely asked a question so that I may determine what is the best remaining test of dairy for me.

I find it intriguing that any negative report from eating dairy products or raw fruits by anyone seems to generate such passions and disputes. What is it about these two foods that causes people to defend them so vigorously?

It's the same with me... fruit or dairy... when I take them in moderation at first I think "wow, it's ok now", but after a while symptoms start to show up.
I'm sorry for you that you share this curse with me, but I don't let it bother me and I hope it doesn't bother you. My experiments are borne of curiosity rather than despair.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
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Offline RawZi

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2010, 09:46:29 am »
Yes, RawZi, I'm eating high fat. I've tried pasteurized cultured pastured butter without success, so I plan on trying raw cultured butter next. I've already had food allergy and intolerance tests and they found I had substantial antibodies (both the allergy type and the intolerance type) to casein, whey and lactose. I scored higher on many foods than most patients.

    My son was allergic to any and all proteins in A1 cow milk and it's possible products.  Butter worked alright though.  He really only does well with homemade kefir and raw butter now.

    For me, pasteurized organic grass-fed butter is horrible.  I tried it (for a week) last year while traveling.  I had to have something and dh wanted me not to bring or get my foods along the way.  I shouldn't have listened.  The butter was a disaster for my health.  It took me months to recover from that butter.

IMO cheese is highly toxic in cooked form. In raw form it is certainly a very dense food that is traditionally well known to digest  more slowly than meat and this can now be traced back to the specific structure of caseins. What bothers me with cheese is also that it has usually a high salt content and is probably too palatable a food that is too easily overeaten.

    I've tried heated cheese.  It makes me congested.  I don't like cheese for the most part, it has a very strong smell raw or not.  Cow milk cheese has higher sodium than goat.  Summer cheese tastes saltier than Winter sourced too.  It's hard to find unsalted cheeses, but that's what I go for.  Yes, too, cheese can be addictive.  I think that's well documented.
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alphagruis

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2010, 04:00:32 pm »

I find it intriguing that any negative report from eating dairy products or raw fruits by anyone seems to generate such passions and disputes. What is it about these two foods that causes people to defend them so vigorously?


I'm not so intrigued. Besides usual emotional reasons basically involved in all health and diet issues, this is due to the simple fact that we do not yet understand properly what happens from scientific point of view. On the one hand life is a very poorly understood phenomenon theoretically and on the other hand many if not most dietary experiments with various foods are simply not (or poorly) reproducible. For instance some of us do well with fruit or butter, some don't.

This is a very uncomfortable situation, well known in the physics of complex systems (life is an example of them) where instability in unfortunately at work. 

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2010, 05:11:27 pm »
I find it intriguing that any negative report from eating dairy products or raw fruits by anyone seems to generate such passions and disputes. What is it about these two foods that causes people to defend them so vigorously?
Err, ZCers can easily be rather more aggressive when defending only raw-meat diets/attacking carbs(that other  ZC forum, The Bear, William etc.) Indeed, there've been threads reporting increased aggression among ZCers!

As for raw dairy, I've come across some people who've been trying to get healthy on SAD diets for years and then become remarkably fanatical when raw-dairy-consumption sorted out their issues such as fertility. This isn't a problem if the raw-dairy(and other raw foods) solves most or all of the problems they have - what is awkward is if raw dairy-consumption solves only 1 or 2 health-problems but causes a few further health-issues as a result of dairy-allergy or magnesium-deficiency etc.
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carnivore

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2010, 12:37:50 am »
Well, it's documented with people on SAD with impaired digestion, leaky guts,  pasteurized dairy etc. I believe it's worth to reconsider this question in our RPD reference frame.

Lactose intolerance is documented with the same SAD eaters. I don't see why you aknowledge one, and not the other. Even butter contains some lactose (and casein), albeit less than milk, and thus can "impair digestion in a large fraction of adult humans."

Quote
I agree that casein has a very specific structure that can only digest slowly as compared to muscle meat. Slow digestion may however have some advantages, such as a slow release of amino acids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casein

Slow digestion means that it is difficult to digest. Not an advantage for me!

Quote
Note that human milk also contains caseins (with similarly little tertiary structure difficult to denature) that babies manage nevertheless to digest properly.

Yes because babies are adapted to human milk. And many babies can't tolerate cow's milk, even raw. Bovine casein is definitively not the same as human casein!

Quote
That's interesting. I look forward to find out whether or not my experience will confirm yours.

I am pretty sure you'll react a way in an other, soon or later. Milk, and thus dairies contain other problematic components (hormones, etc.). Cordain has made a good job on this subject (in the Paleodiet newsletters).

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: paleo dairy
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2010, 02:35:03 am »
Carnivore is absolutely right. Human raw milk is nothing like raw cows' milk and is close to 100% digestible by human infants as a direct result of certain unique hormones etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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