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Offline dsohei

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meat storage ideas?
« on: June 07, 2010, 01:31:58 am »
so before i do a big order from us wellness or northstar, i need to figure out how to store it. currently the ground meat i buy comes vac-packed in 1 lb sizes. unopened, this keeps in the fridge for a while - i haven't seen it go bad yet.
my question is, if i get a food saver device, can i wrap all my ground and organ meats and keep them indefinitely in the fridge, thus bypassing the freezing process?
with the small amount of oxygen in the vac-packs, will the meats go off in some unhealthy way? i read a post (that i didn't fully understand) about the differences between aerobic and anaerobic fermentation...?
so my choices are - frozen, vac-packed in fridge, open-air in fridge, which is best?
thanks!

Offline Hans89

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 03:25:11 am »
Eventually it will go bad in the vaccum packs. You might get botulism from it which is no joke. I haven't found an ideal solution yet... I want a meat locker...

Offline dsohei

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 03:37:42 am »
is there a botulism time frame? (keeping in mind that all meat will be highest quality/freshest possible.)
does anyone store their ground meat in the open air/fridge?
i'm guessing that botulism occurs in a sealed/anaerobic environment, which is why properly aged or high meat is healthy?

Offline Iguana

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 04:55:03 am »
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/raw-eggs-whites-and-yolks/msg14916/#msg14916
Quote
Large pieces of meat can be kept several months hung on hooks in a fridge. The best is to buy a ventilated fridge (expensive) or find an old fridge without automatic defrosting. Frequent defrosting brings a lot of moisture inside, which dampens the meat, impede its drying and jeopardize its conservation. A panacea is to put the meat intermittently for some hours in a ventilated food drier adjusted to ambient temperature. I often do that for about 24 hours before to put my meat in the fridge. Another way to store and age the meat is hung in a box closed with wire mesh so that air can freely circulate all around the meat while flies cannot enter. It works fine outside the house when the temperature is not too warm nor freezing.   
Francois
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Hans89

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 03:27:19 pm »
i'm guessing that botulism occurs in a sealed/anaerobic environment, which is why properly aged or high meat is healthy?

Yes. I think botulism occurs mostly in canned food.

Offline RawZi

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 06:16:31 pm »
    I would preferable cut it up and keep it in jars, and air it every four days (all in refrigerator).

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/raw-eggs-whites-and-yolks/msg14916/#msg14916Francois

    So my old fridge would have been better for this.  Whaddaya know?
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Offline Odin

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 11:13:01 pm »
Any experiences with storing liver?
I have about 500g of rabbit liver in my fridge for nearly five days and am not so sure about any bad effects.
I also have some beef in there for about 10 days and am not worried about eating that. I've had good experiences with storing meat and fish. I'm not so sure about the liver, though.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2010, 12:26:09 am »
Any experiences with storing liver?
I have about 500g of rabbit liver in my fridge for nearly five days and am not so sure about any bad effects.
I also have some beef in there for about 10 days and am not worried about eating that. I've had good experiences with storing meat and fish. I'm not so sure about the liver, though.
I've had aged raw liver and it was fine.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2010, 02:31:28 am »
I've had aged raw liver and it was fine.
Sure, just hang it on a hook in your fridge.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Odin

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2010, 03:20:56 am »
Great. Thanks for the reply, guys.

Offline dsohei

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2010, 04:52:14 am »
so i guess i will have to experiment. i only want to order long distance maybe once a month, and ground meat/"pet food" is the cheapest i've seen, along with organs. i am going to do an unpackaged ground meat in the fridge experiment. (the meats i have now are pre-frozen so there is a lot of leakage, i can see why non-frozen is better)
also i have an extra mini-fridge i was thinking about using only for meat. i can't leave it out in the open in my apartment.
i'm still wondering whether the food saver vacuum sealer is a necessary investment?
thanks for all the replies!

Offline Michael

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 09:27:46 pm »
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/raw-eggs-whites-and-yolks/msg14916/#msg14916Francois

Large pieces of meat can be kept several months hung on hooks in a fridge. The best is to buy a ventilated fridge (expensive) or find an old fridge without automatic defrosting. Frequent defrosting brings a lot of moisture inside, which dampens the meat, impede its drying and jeopardize its conservation. A panacea is to put the meat intermittently for some hours in a ventilated food drier adjusted to ambient temperature. I often do that for about 24 hours before to put my meat in the fridge. Another way to store and age the meat is hung in a box closed with wire mesh so that air can freely circulate all around the meat while flies cannot enter. It works fine outside the house when the temperature is not too warm nor freezing.

Francois, what is the difference between a 'ventilated' fridge and a normal modern fridge?  I happen to have a CAPLE Wine fridge/cabinet as seen here: http://www.caple.co.uk/appliances.aspx?cat=7&pid=210.  Do you think this would do a similarly good job of storing meat as a ventilated fridge?

Like some others, I prefer to place bulk meat orders every 3 or 4 weeks but I do often lose some - particularly offal - to mold/waste when kept in boxes or jars in my modern stainless steel fridge.  I'm keen to start hanging it and my wine fridge would serve well as a completely separate meat storage facility if it didn't share the moisture problem you mentioned.  What do you think?  The temperature on the wine fridge can be digitally adjusted between 5-18 deg C I think.  I'm not sure if this would be cold enough for meat storage?

so i guess i will have to experiment. i only want to order long distance maybe once a month, and ground meat/"pet food" is the cheapest i've seen, along with organs. i am going to do an unpackaged ground meat in the fridge experiment. (the meats i have now are pre-frozen so there is a lot of leakage, i can see why non-frozen is better)
also i have an extra mini-fridge i was thinking about using only for meat. i can't leave it out in the open in my apartment.
i'm still wondering whether the food saver vacuum sealer is a necessary investment?
thanks for all the replies!

If it's any help, I've previously spent alot of money on one of those food saving devices which utilised expelling air from special storage boxes rather than bags.  It didn't help much and eventually fell into disuse.  The extra mini-fridge would be a good idea depending if it fits in with the criteria mentioned by Francois.

Personally, I'm not sure long-term storage of ground meat is a good idea anyway.  Although it may prove a little more expensive, you would probably be better served storing cuts of meat and grinding it up yourself at the time of consumption.  I've recently bought a heavy duty Buffalo meat grinder/mincer for this purpose and it works a treat!  Storing ground meat anymore than a day or so and oxidized lipids and cholesterol is going to become an issue according to some studies.



Michael


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Offline Iguana

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2010, 04:54:07 am »
By "ventilated fridge", I mean with a fan inside. The one you gave the link for should be alright, though I have no experience with that kind of fridges. 5° C is ok, even that the ideal advised temperature for meat storage is between 0 and 2° C. But so low, there's a risk that it starts freezing, so I prefer a little more. The meat matures faster if the temperature is higher, but it's normally not a problem except that the fat becomes rancid earlier.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Michael

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2010, 05:14:51 am »
Thanks for your further input on that Francois.  In that case, I will begin experimenting with my 'new' meat hanging fridge!  :)  I'll report back with any interesting outcomes. 

If it proves unsuitable, I'll look into buying a cheap old fridge with a fan - especially having now seen the prices of some modern ventilated fridges!  This one looks rather nice though! :)  http://www.cornerfridge.com/product_details.asp?c=3&d=3&p=%7BD60CB77A-8BD2-44CB-A812-25672D33EF44%7D
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2010, 02:49:53 pm »
A cheap old fridge without fan would be fine as well as long as it has no automatic defrosting. Then you defrost it manually once in a way and store the meat somewhere else while it's defrosting.

Francois
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Michael

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2010, 05:52:24 pm »
OK.  I'll bear that in mind Francois if my current wine fridge proves unsuitable.  Thanks for the advice.  I'm excited at the prospect of adorning a dedicated meat fridge with a selection of hanging meats!  It will be another talking point for visitors to my kitchen!  :)
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
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Offline Odin

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2010, 08:44:10 pm »
A few months ago I had a piece of beef of about 2.5kg that I just left in a bowl in the fridge. I ate nearly everyday from it with no problems for more than two weeks.
Now a bit more than a week ago I did the same. However, this time after not even a week the bottom outside of the beef started to turned grayish and it also smells. I ate from it and didn't have a problem. But the taste wasn't so nice.
The next day I fried two steaks from it. The weird taste stayed.
Has anyone experienced this graying with smell?
Do you think it might be harmful?
What could be the reason for the difference? The first time it became darker, but not really gray, and it turned dryer.

The beef is grass-fed and -finished.

Offline nicole

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2010, 02:18:45 am »
Instead of keeping it in a glass bowl make a rack out of wooden sticks and rest it on top of a cassarole dish. Then place the roast on the rack and stick a few toothpicks in the top. Then cover lightly with wax paper or something and then wrap a long piece of butcher plastic around the whole dish. It saves really well this way. The meat will develop a couple of grey lines on the bottom, but barely any is wasted.
Give it to us raw, and wriggling. You keep nasty chips.

Offline raw-al

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2010, 08:58:07 am »
Cheers
Al

Offline Michael

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2010, 05:03:11 am »
By "ventilated fridge", I mean with a fan inside. The one you gave the link for should be alright, though I have no experience with that kind of fridges. 5° C is ok, even that the ideal advised temperature for meat storage is between 0 and 2° C. But so low, there's a risk that it starts freezing, so I prefer a little more. The meat matures faster if the temperature is higher, but it's normally not a problem except that the fat becomes rancid earlier.

I can finally update that I have now had my meat aging fridge (as described previously) up and running for the last 2 weeks.  It seems to be working extremely well.  I've eaten a little of the fatty lamb breast which had been aging for 2 weeks as well as a venison steak which had been aged just a few days.  The venison was, quite simply, the tastiest meat I've eaten in all my 10 years of eating RAF!  It required no addition (other than a little freshly ground black pepper) which is very unusual for me.  The lamb breast has been good too but nothing in comparison to the venison.

Even after this comparatively short aging period in my meat fridge at 5 deg C, my meats are turning a beautiful dark colour and are becoming incredibly dry and hard, or to put it in a rather more appetising way, crispy.  My only concern is that I have now noticed a green, furry mold appearing on the lamb breasts after 2 weeks.

Is this mold safe to consume?  As they're fully exposed to air, I'm assuming it's ok and similar to molds experienced in aged cheese.  But, I am concerned about consuming molds of any sort due to the links to cancer and other major health problems. Any thoughts?

1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline raw-al

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2010, 05:30:38 am »
so i guess i will have to experiment. i only want to order long distance maybe once a month, and ground meat/"pet food" is the cheapest i've seen, along with organs. i am going to do an unpackaged ground meat in the fridge experiment. (the meats i have now are pre-frozen so there is a lot of leakage, i can see why non-frozen is better)
also i have an extra mini-fridge i was thinking about using only for meat. i can't leave it out in the open in my apartment.
i'm still wondering whether the food saver vacuum sealer is a necessary investment?
thanks for all the replies!
I was travelling to Houston (TX) and had an opportunity to get lots of seafood, so I got one of those food baggers, bagged the seafood and then froze it and put it in a cooler. Haven't used it since although I have a trip to home coming up and I may do the same with haddock. My friend brokers it and it is awesome.

The guy I was with in Houston has one and he buys a side of beef and bags and freezes it. He swears by it.
Cheers
Al

Offline Ioanna

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2010, 08:19:33 am »
I can finally update that I have now had my meat aging fridge (as described previously) up and running for the last 2 weeks.  It seems to be working extremely well.  I've eaten a little of the fatty lamb breast which had been aging for 2 weeks as well as a venison steak which had been aged just a few days.  The venison was, quite simply, the tastiest meat I've eaten in all my 10 years of eating RAF!  It required no addition (other than a little freshly ground black pepper) which is very unusual for me.  The lamb breast has been good too but nothing in comparison to the venison.

Even after this comparatively short aging period in my meat fridge at 5 deg C, my meats are turning a beautiful dark colour and are becoming incredibly dry and hard, or to put it in a rather more appetising way, crispy.  My only concern is that I have now noticed a green, furry mold appearing on the lamb breasts after 2 weeks.

Is this mold safe to consume?  As they're fully exposed to air, I'm assuming it's ok and similar to molds experienced in aged cheese.  But, I am concerned about consuming molds of any sort due to the links to cancer and other major health problems. Any thoughts?



there was a period of time that my meat was growing a white fuzzy mold, and i FINALLY figured out it was due to the condensation (tradition fridge).  i've been aging my meat for while now, probably up to a month at the most, and never saw an indication (other than my last sentence :) ) of mold... not sure what that is.  was the lamb breast uncovered?

Offline donrad

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2010, 09:29:57 am »
I buy in bulk also.

I use vacuum canisters purchased on eBay. Expensive but they last forever. Only certain vacuum machines have a cannister port. All major manufacturers have cannisters. I even have an attachment that will seal canning jars. Ground meat and liver last 3X longer without oxygen in frig.

I also have great success with breifly searing big thick (very thick) burger patties on a very hot BBQ grill. It seals the outside while the inside stays raw. Keeps much longer in frig and tastes great cold or warm.

The meat you buy was probably hung in a frig for a couple of weeks to tenderize befor you got it. If you buy large cuts and dry age them they will last for weeks. Freshly grind or chop what you need by cutting off chunks with a clean knife. Fresh ground meat tastes better. Try to hang them in the frig. The mold is not bad. Wipe it off with vinegar. The meat will get more tender by enzyme action the longer it ages. Dry aging shrinks the meat and that is why the butcher does not want to do it long. Rubbing pepper and salt on the meat will also keep spoilage down. 50 degrees is optimal for tenderizing, 40 for long storage. You will be amazed at the tenderness, texture, and flavor of good dry aged meat. Experiment and enjoy.

Before refrigeration meat was smoked and salted to make it last a long time. Drying works great also. See my post on pemican. In cold climates you can hang it outside to freeze in a barn or shed.

Naturally, Don

Offline Michael

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2010, 07:49:00 pm »
Thanks for your thoughts guys.

Yes, this is a fuzzy mold too Ioanna.  I did eat some last night and haven't observed any ill effects so it's probably ok (even though I wiped it off as best I could as it's not particularly appetising!).  All of the meats are completely uncovered in my new meat fridge as they're hanging on stainless steel meat hooks.  It's basically an electronically controlled wine fridge which I've converted out for this new purpose.  It's ventilated with a fan and provides a digitally controlled temperature which I'm keeping set at 5 deg C.  I'll try to take a photo of it to post.  It's interesting that you've had no molds over a month aging period even in your traditional fridge.  It does make me wonder if my new storage facility is as ideal as I was hoping.

Donrad and raw-al, I have a large selection of those vacuum containers too.  I bought them new which cost an absolute fortune along with the electric pump which attaches to the containers and removes the air.  I used to think they were wonderful but, over time, they have pretty much ALL exploded!!  I discovered this was probably due to various chemicals and gases released by particular foods during storage.  I use them now as very expensive paint containers!!  :)

50 degrees is optimal for tenderizing, 40 for long storage. You will be amazed at the tenderness, texture, and flavor of good dry aged meat. Experiment and enjoy.......Before refrigeration meat was smoked and salted to make it last a long time. Drying works great also. See my post on pemican. In cold climates you can hang it outside to freeze in a barn or shed.

I've been storing it at the minimal setting on my wine fridge which is 5 deg C (41 deg F).  Would you recommend experimenting with 10 deg C for tenderising?

I've experimented alot with drying meats in my dehydrator but am interested in more traditional methods.  I've seen photos of inuit and scandinavian fish drying racks exposed to the elements which are incredible.  I can't remember the name of it now but it seems that it's still possible to commercially purchase such dried fish.  It's something I was previously looking into as a source of Ca! :)

1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline raw-al

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Re: meat storage ideas?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2010, 10:43:53 pm »
Donrad and raw-al, I have a large selection of those vacuum containers too.  I bought them new which cost an absolute fortune along with the electric pump which attaches to the containers and removes the air.  I used to think they were wonderful but, over time, they have pretty much ALL exploded!!  I discovered this was probably due to various chemicals and gases released by particular foods during storage.  I use them now as very expensive paint containers!!  :)

I've experimented alot with drying meats in my dehydrator but am interested in more traditional methods.  I've seen photos of inuit and scandinavian fish drying racks exposed to the elements which are incredible.  I can't remember the name of it now but it seems that it's still possible to commercially purchase such dried fish.  It's something I was previously looking into as a source of Ca! :)
Michael,
I am not sure if I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that you have containers like jars? With my vacuum bagger, I use plastic bags which come in a long roll.

Drying fish used to be big in fishing communities but I believe that used salt. ie salt fish. Salt being used as a preservative. I will try to find out if they always added salt. Not sure, but I doubt the Inuit used salt. I will ask my friend from Tibet how they dried their meat.
Cheers
Al

 

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