Author Topic: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2  (Read 118722 times)

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carnivore

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Re: Explain INstincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2010, 11:16:25 pm »
You are rather an example of what shouldn’t be done:
[...]
The absence of selection by the sense of smell could be one.

Bad practice, bad provisioning, ...I am a bit weary to always here the same refrain.

I did not say I could not digest raw meat, I said I was disgusted (could not stomach it). I was not breastfed.

1800 to 2200 kcal per day is clearly not enough for the majority of people, unless completely inactive and happy to be underweight as some seem to be!
An active man of my size simply needs around 3000 kcal. And 2 meals probably indeed makes me overeat to compensate for the lack of calories...

And FYI :
500g avocado = 800 Kcal
500g dates = 1400 kcal




 

Offline GCB

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Re: Explain INstincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2010, 07:20:23 am »

Bad practice, bad provisioning, ...I am a bit weary to always here the same refrain.

If you’re told the same story over and over again, it’s because you never change your tune, saying repeatedly the same old story. You seem to belong to the kind of guys complaining to their car’s manufacturer about the difficulties they get on the road… whereas they didn’t bother to learn how to drive and are using the wrong fuel.

Quote
I did not say I could not digest raw meat, I said I was disgusted (could not stomach it). I was not breastfed.

I apologize : I didn’t properly catch the meaning of “stomach it”.

The disgust for a foodstuff is a complex process. The fact that you weren’t breastfed can explain this aversion for proteins immunologicaly close to the cow's milk you received instead of mother's milk. One of the rules I could draw from experience is that one should not remain for long in a state of blockage a food class off. It is necessary to repeatedly put the body in contact with a foodstuff of that class, initially at the sense of smell and taste levels, and if that blockage is maintained, to consume minor amounts of the stuff – apparently to reactivate the immunizing functions responsible of this blockage.
 
Hence, you most probably would not have suffered of a lack of proteins as that seem to have been the case. I never said the instinct does everything. It is able to ensure an excellent nutritional balance, but the traditional diet after-effects make it itself prone to various dysfunctions, and it is the role of the instincto as a teaching to bring the appropriate solutions.

Quote
1800 to 2200 kcal per day is clearly not enough for the majority of people, unless completely inactive and happy to be underweight as some seem to be!
An active man of my size simply needs around 3000 kcal. And 2 meals probably indeed makes me overeat to compensate for the lack of calories...

Indeed, laborers need about 3000 kcal/day, but it happens that their instinct drives them to ingest larger rations in a completely automatic way along with the digestive capacity increasing accordingly. Everyone could notice that physical effort, for example a mountain trek, boosts the appetite and facilitates digestion (except for the seriously sick people).

To tell the truth, I did not have the impression that you belong to this type of workers…


Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Explain INstincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2010, 12:16:24 pm »
Its pretty well known that for a SWD that their sense of smell and perception of food is largely completely retarded. There have been numerous experiments where people are asked to taste one food and then given the exact same food to taste again and will rate one much different than the other. This is very common with liquids - soft drinks and wine where such things as the bottle, advertising brand and preconditioned ideas of taste (say where the experimenter tries the first drink and spits it out immediately before the tasters drink it) have such an enormous impact.

Has anyone done a blindfolded test with respect to instincto nutrition? Would eating blindfolded be a better way to choose your food for the day? Or better yet, have someone put your food up to your nose for you so that you can remove as many preconceived notions about the food you are about to eat.

Offline Susan

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Re: Explain INstincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2010, 02:02:11 pm »
When I started to complete my raw diet with meat and innards, I was unable to eat more than a thimbleful. And I couldn't say that it smells or tastes good. But knowing that raw meat maybe can help me to regain my health I tried eyery day. After a few weeks everthing changed: the smell and the taste of meat became very attractive and finally I was able to eat and to digest innards and meat with great pleasure and in quantities.

Sometimes it's really better to choose the food of the day blind. I rembered a piece of meat, well matured, which smelled and tasted very attractive. After a few bits a handfull maggots came in front of my eyes. The first impulse was to spit out this nasty stuff. I started to reflect my behavior an decided to close my eyes and to continue my meal. I completed it without problems and it was really satisfying. We are refucing many things "instinctive" due to our unnatural education and in this case our intelligence can help to regain our real instincts.

Susan

Offline Hanna

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Re: Explain INstincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2010, 02:56:37 pm »
When I started to complete my raw diet with meat and innards, I was unable to eat more than a thimbleful. And I couldn't say that it smells or tastes good. But knowing that raw meat maybe can help me to regain my health I tried eyery day. After a few weeks everthing changed: the smell and the taste of meat became very attractive and finally I was able to eat and to digest innards and meat with great pleasure and in quantities.

Hi susan,

Interesting; I should try this too with muscle meat. Where do you buy the brain that you eat? Every time I eat brain I feel "high" afterwards. Yesterday I ate salmon AND brain; I can´t describe how I felt in the evening...

Offline Hanna

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Re: Explain INstincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2010, 03:37:51 pm »
It seems you did not read properly my post. It is unnecessary that such an environment exists in the form of an original paradise. Our genetics could include the ones of various animals we evolved from and memorize numerous partial situations, by adapting for example the alliesthesic mechanisms during a period to such or such new plant, during another to consumption of the meat of a specific animal, etc. It can thus gather all kinds of data making the organism able to function as well as possible in a global alimentary context, and it is this context which I tried to define empirically. The facts showed the need to exclude cooked, seasoned and crushed food, dairy products and cereal, and to be careful with  artificially selected modern foodstuff (be it fruits, vegetables, or meat of domestic animals).


Ok, thank you for that answer.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2010, 04:03:28 pm »
Especially for Alphagruis:

Come on guys:

REMINDER: THIS IS THE PRO-INSTINCTO SECTION

I would like to see the original spirit of the discussions in each raw paleo diet be observed.

There is a logic to why Geoff and Craig made a board section for each raw paleo variant.

We have precedents with other boards like the Primal Diet and the Raw Omnivore sections where people were asked to take their anti-Primal Diet and anti-Omnivore attacks outside of those boards.

The logic is that the Instincto forum is meant primarily for discussing the Instincto diet in a positive, constructive way and that anti-Instincto posts should be made in the Hot Topics forum

Since Iguana is the moderator in the Instincto board, let's respect his decisions to keep this board in order.

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Iguana

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2010, 05:22:46 pm »
Alphagruis best posts have been quoted in a new thread and removed from this one. The author is kindly requested to directly post his new messages of the same class either in the relevant new thread Alpha's best or in the "Instincto Debunking Thread". Thanks in advance.

Factual critiques and arguments against the instincto theory are welcome here as long as they are expressed without insults or personal attacks.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 10:33:30 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Susan

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #108 on: July 14, 2010, 08:41:33 pm »
Hanna, I buy brain from Orkos and I know some hunters, who give me the innards of their hunted games. It's a pity that only boar from Orkos has brain, lamb and horse never have one. Poor animals  ;).

I never tried salmon, because I can get only cultured one. What about yours? If it's cultured, it is not surprinsing that you feel "high"  after a meal. :) My feeling after eating brain when I really need it is satisfaction und peace.

Offline Hanna

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2010, 01:04:58 am »
Hi Susan,

The salmon was this one: http://www.lochduart.com/
Very tasty! I´m always a bit  "high" when I have eaten fatty fish. In the case of brain this effect is just stronger. Mainly I eat wild fish, especially mackerel.

Offline GCB

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Re: Explain INstincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2010, 05:33:14 am »

Its pretty well known that for a SWD that their sense of smell and perception of food is largely completely retarded. There have been numerous experiments where people are asked to taste one food and then given the exact same food to taste again and will rate one much different than the other. This is very common with liquids - soft drinks and wine where such things as the bottle, advertising brand and preconditioned ideas of taste (say where the experimenter tries the first drink and spits it out immediately before the tasters drink it) have such an enormous impact.

Has anyone done a blindfolded test with respect to instincto nutrition? Would eating blindfolded be a better way to choose your food for the day? Or better yet, have someone put your food up to your nose for you so that you can remove as many preconceived notions about the food you are about to eat.

Paleo Donk, your remarks are absolutely relevant.

Unnatural savors of cooked and industrial food deteriorate the sensory operation. It is a form of adaptation with effect that the beginners in instinctive nutrition are very often induced in error. The simple habituation to salted tastes, for example, makes that raw food, not salted nor seasoned appears a priori insipid. The sense of smell itself is distorted by the effect of artificial flavors (synthetic vanillin for example!) and even by artificial perfumes used in cosmetic. These disturbances touch many components of the different flavors. Therefore one needs a certain time and some effort in training to give back to the senses their normal work.

Blindfolding does not avoid directly these deteriorations of the olfactive or gustatory sensitivity, but being unaware of the nature of the tested stuff has a paramount effect to learn how to dissociate psychological projections (which you rightly underline in connection with the look of drinks’ bottles) and the natural physiological operation of the sensory mechanisms. When the smelled or tasted stuff is known, the brain interposes a whole series of memories and preconceived ideas. With blindfolding (or with the product hidden at the bottom of a small opaque bottle), these parasitic projections are avoided, so that one much better picks the foodstuff wanted or rejected by the organism.

This is indeed why I have always advised the use of blindfolding to facilitate the necessary rehabilitation. The guys who don’t bother to carry out a satisfactory rehabilitation can obviously unbalance and never discover the natural operation of their senses, neither their selectivity, nor their sensitivity. That then gives people who even remain convinced that the alimentary instinct doesn’t exist and who launch a crusade  >:  to disparage the instincto diet! ;)

« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 07:14:35 am by GCB »

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #111 on: July 16, 2010, 12:46:17 pm »
Ok I just came across Clara Davis' 1928 study "Self-selection of Diet by Newly Weaned Infants" from a pretty haphazard source - The book Elephants on Acid. I assume you have heard of the study. Well, in the excerpt the author describes how Davis had 3 different infants several months of age contained in a hospital where she would offer each infant a huge selection of foods and have the infant decide which foods it wanted. Of course there were cooked foods, grain products and whole milk but no junk foods. The nurses were instructed to let the infants pick out their own food. Two of the infants stayed on the diet for 6 months and the other for a year. The results of the study seem to point in the direction of instincto eating - The babies would spontaneously and unpredictably change their diets every few weeks.

One of the infants had rickets at the outgoing and a bowl of cod liver oil was placed on the tray and he consumed it for 3 months until the rickets went away and then stopped eating it.

Have you conducted any infant studies like the above?

Ok, I just found a summary of the study online.

Quote

In the 1920s and 1930s, the pediatrician Clara Davis conducted pioneering studies, now considered classic, and published at least 12 papers on the selection of diets by infants and young children (Davis 1928, 1934, 1938, 1939). In the first study (Davis 1928), three infants (7-9 months old) were involved, two for six months and the third for one year. In 1939, Davis reported in much less detail the results of a study involving 12 more children over a period ranging from 6 months to 4.5 years (Davis 1939). The research protocol was the same for both studies.

Of the 34 foods offered, 90% of the energy intake for all three infants was derived from 14 foods. Of these, 9 were preferred by all three infants (bone marrow, milk, eggs, banana, apples, oranges, cornmeal, whole wheat, and oatmeal). Bone marrow was the largest single source of calories (27%) for one infant, whereas milk provided the bulk of calories for the other two (19 and 39%). All three infants shared a low preference for 10 vegetables, as well as for pineapple, peaches, liver, kidney, ocean fish, and sea salt. These foods constituted less than 10% of the total energy intake.

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-3j.shtml

Raw meat was apparently offered as there is a picture of it in my book. The infants still fell ill to influenze, whooping cough and chicken pox.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 12:53:54 pm by Paleo Donk »

Offline GCB

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #112 on: July 17, 2010, 06:33:09 am »
Ok I just came across Clara Davis' 1928 study "Self-selection of Diet by Newly Weaned Infants" from a pretty haphazard source - The book Elephants on Acid. I assume you have heard of the study. Well, in the excerpt the author describes how Davis had 3 different infants several months of age contained in a hospital where she would offer each infant a huge selection of foods and have the infant decide which foods it wanted. Of course there were cooked foods, grain products and whole milk but no junk foods. The nurses were instructed to let the infants pick out their own food. Two of the infants stayed on the diet for 6 months and the other for a year. The results of the study seem to point in the direction of instincto eating - The babies would spontaneously and unpredictably change their diets every few weeks.
One of the infants had rickets at the outgoing and a bowl of cod liver oil was placed on the tray and he consumed it for 3 months until the rickets went away and then stopped eating it.
Have you conducted any infant studies like the above?
The infants still fell ill to influenza, whooping cough and chicken pox.

Excellent idea to point out the famous experiment of Clara Davis!

The results show indeed that there’s a self-regulation of the food intake in the very young children. This self-regulation is therefore likely to be innate rather than induced by training. Such an innate automatism ensuring a self-regulation is precisely what is (or must be) called alimentary instinct.

I could discern the phenomenon on many children who stayed in my alimentary rehabilitation centre, and already before on my own children and those of the instinctos of the first decades. It is very interesting for us to know that regulation mechanisms already exist for cooked food. However, it was done with relatively simple foodstuffs. The more the cooking receipts are sophisticated, the more the senses are induced in error. The advantage of the instincto, thanks to the suppression of all the causes of flavors denaturation, is that this regulation is exerted under the best conditions, with the most precise results.

This is checked at the level of the inflammatory tendency, but also in the various child diseases, influenzas, etc at level of the symptoms importance (in fact related to the inflammatory tendency). I could notice that instincto children never presented the usual symptoms. They got these diseases, like the majority of their pars, but in mild form i.e. the symptoms remained almost unperceivable. This explains why the subjects implied in the protocol of Clara Davis got these various diseases on the usual mode: instinctive nutritional balance wasn’t as ideal because of cooking and other causes of savors deterioration, without taking into account the formation of AGEs and other heat damaged or wrecked molecules.

The alimentary instinct is undoubtedly the most deeply rooted of all the instincts, in humans as in animals. It is believed lost, but it isn’t so because the mechanisms constituting it are atrophied, but because the foodstuff presented day after day to the sensory organs hamper their normal functioning. After generations of cooking art, our culture ended up rejecting the listening of the body, under pretext that instincts belong to animals, to substitute to it the omnipotence of the mental. Instincto-nutrition makes it possible to find the right balance between these two entities, both essential to the human organism and psyche balance.


« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 06:56:01 am by GCB »

Offline Hanna

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #113 on: July 17, 2010, 03:02:09 pm »
 
>>The results show indeed that there’s a self-regulation of the food intake in the very young children. This self-regulation is therefore likely to be innate rather than induced by training.

 
Do you honestly believe that a sample size of 3 children is sufficient to obtain statistically significant results?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 03:09:34 pm by Hanna »

Offline GCB

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #114 on: July 17, 2010, 11:34:26 pm »

Do you honestly believe that a sample size of 3 children is sufficient to obtain statistically significant results?

In the whole, 3 + 12 = 15 children.

Quote
In the 1920s and 1930s, the pediatrician Clara Davis conducted pioneering studies, now considered classic, and published at least 12 papers on the selection of diets by infants and young children (Davis 1928, 1934, 1938, 1939). In the first study (Davis 1928), three infants (7-9 months old) were involved, two for six months and the third for one year. In 1939, Davis reported in much less detail the results of a study involving 12 more children over a period ranging from 6 months to 4.5 years (Davis 1939). The research protocol was the same for both studies.

Many studies of this type are done with few subjects, because it’s very difficult to compel a lot of them to strict diet conditions. They are rarely done over such a long time. Be that as it may, these results tend to confirm the postulate of an alimentary instinct. Notice that I didn’t claim that they are significant in a statistical sense. Nevertheless, they are a confirmation of my own observations.


carnivore

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Re: Explain INstincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #115 on: July 18, 2010, 01:00:49 am »
If you’re told the same story over and over again, it’s because you never change your tune, saying repeatedly the same old story. You seem to belong to the kind of guys complaining to their car’s manufacturer about the difficulties they get on the road… whereas they didn’t bother to learn how to drive and are using the wrong fuel.

Well, Didn't you ask me some questions ?

[...]

Quote
Indeed, laborers need about 3000 kcal/day, but it happens that their instinct drives them to ingest larger rations in a completely automatic way along with the digestive capacity increasing accordingly. Everyone could notice that physical effort, for example a mountain trek, boosts the appetite and facilitates digestion (except for the seriously sick people).

To tell the truth, I did not have the impression that you belong to this type of workers…

No, laborers need probably around 5000 Kcal/day or more. Male with moderate physical activity like me need around 3000 Kcal.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 07:54:33 pm by Iguana »

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2010, 04:34:32 am »
Appreciate the responses GCB - I don't quite jibe with everything you say but I'll leave those criticisms for the other thread.

Another question - How big of a role does mercury amalgam fillings play in disrupting the alimentary instinct? I have ten right now and in the process of finding a way to get them removed. And once the fillings are removed is it possible to naturally chelate the heavy metals out through instincto eating of cilantro or other herbs known to chelate metals?

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2010, 05:29:06 am »

>>The results show indeed that there’s a self-regulation of the food intake in the very young children. This self-regulation is therefore likely to be innate rather than induced by training.

 
Do you honestly believe that a sample size of 3 children is sufficient to obtain statistically significant results?

Our whole raw paleo forum is based on anecdotal evidence.
We and our own children are our own anecdotal success.
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Offline Susan

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #118 on: July 18, 2010, 06:16:51 am »
Paleo Donk asked how big the role of amalgam fillings play in disrupting the alimentary instinct.

As far as I can see people who want to eat instinctive raw have a lot of problems if they don't want to remove this fillings. Observed problems are: underweight, skin problems, problems with candida, disorders of the coordination and the impossibilty to live 100% raw permanently.

The problem of underweight concerns people with goldfillings too.

The fillings seemed to be really life-threatening for raw people. And maybe some of the people who died from cancer despite living 100% raw have had this fillings.

Different raw food can help to eliminate mercury, especially those containing sulfur. Your instinct can select the best after removing all fillings.

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #119 on: July 18, 2010, 06:38:48 am »
I had my mercury fillings removed.
They were replaced with white fillings.
How do I know if these are the correct fillings?
Do I wait for my teeth to re-grow / repair and remove these white fillings?
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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #120 on: July 18, 2010, 12:40:25 pm »
There will be no problem if the dentist uses dental cement without fluorine. If he uses synthetic materials or cement with fluorine one have to remove them again. Synthetics are known to destroy mirror neurons and stem cells and fluorine causes troubles with minerals (caries can continue). Unfortunately most synthetics contained fluorine. 




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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #121 on: July 18, 2010, 03:14:15 pm »
And because of this opinion the German followers of this guy have  removed all their dentures and fillings or even their teeth...
Are there people stupid enough to get all their teeth removed?   ???

As far as I can see people who want to eat instinctive raw have a lot of problems if they don't want to remove this fillings. Observed problems are: underweight, skin problems, problems with candida, disorders of the coordination and the impossibilty to live 100% raw permanently.

Different raw food can help to eliminate mercury, especially those containing sulfur. Your instinct can select the best after removing all fillings.

I think you overly inflate this problem, Susan. I survived to a lot of metallic fillings done before my 18 years old. My teeth decay and health troubles almost completely stopped at this age when I switched to a kind of Weston Price diet and decades latter to instincto-nutrition. If the removal of such fillings isn't done with extraordinary precautions, it results in a sudden large mercury ingestion that could well be much more noxious than simply leaving it in place, especially when it's been there for years.

I still have a few old metallic filings left, I don’t care about them and I do not see why their presence would impair my senses of smell and taste. There are so many other nuisances, notably cooked food and such that can be more harmful by several orders of magnitude! 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #122 on: July 18, 2010, 04:17:32 pm »
To tell the truth only a few people removed their fillings and nobody removed own teeth. That will be very stupid indeed. :)

I know your arguments from a lot of elder raw eating people. They are telling me everthing is well and that they are feeling good inspite the poisonous fillings. When somebody feels good I haven't the compulsion to convince him to remove the fillings. But there are people who don't feel good and who are very emaciated despite raw eating and in this cases it's maybe better to remove the fillings.


Offline Hanna

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #123 on: July 18, 2010, 05:57:28 pm »
Are there people stupid enough to get all their teeth removed?   ???

There was at least one case, but I don´t remember the details. Isn´t there this crazy physician - Max Daunderer? He apparently advises people to get their teeth pulled.  

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Re: Explain Instincto Diet Fully #2
« Reply #124 on: July 18, 2010, 06:12:41 pm »
Our whole raw paleo forum is based on anecdotal evidence.
We and our own children are our own anecdotal success.

And therefore we should not generalize from our experiences. Many rawfood "gurus" generalize on the basis of anecdotal evidence and, even worse, explain away results that do not support their predictions (bad practice, detoxination etc.), i. e. they consider only results (seemingly) supporting their hypotheses. Therefore their hypotheses cannot be falsified. A good example are German rawvegan gurus.

 

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