Author Topic: Coconut oil  (Read 46959 times)

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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2010, 10:37:23 am »
I have had raw whole coconuts and they are nearly impossible to get fresh in Kentucky, The ones I have eaten have given me headaches and weren't very pleasent to eat. This butter taste wonderfull and makes me feel good , what else matters unless your a fundamentalist fanatic. Its the only processed food I eat and its nearly raw and organic so I sleep good at night.
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Offline Haai

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2010, 04:13:36 pm »
But other wild plants game animals live and have lived in areas where temperatures reach 115, so wouldn't that same argument apply to all edible plants and animals that can survive in temperatures up to 115? Heck, even here in Vermont the record high recorded temp is 105 F and the plants and animals didn't all die at that time.

Like you I don't care much about dietary "ideals"--just the facts ma'am/sir--and I'm interested to hear the facts from both sides of this argument. The 104 F (40 C) figure has dominated this forum up to now, but that doesn't guarantee it's correct and it's good to get different perspectives.

I'm still curious as to where the maximum 114 F and 104 F (40 C) figures come from. Why not 113 F or 115 F, or 103/105 F? If 114 F is OK because it's below a theoretical maximum temperature on earth (with possible higher temps in direct sunlight), an actual temperature of 159.3 °F was recorded in a desert in Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremes_on_Earth), should that then be the max temp to heat foods to?

So far we seem to have just opinions on what the max temp to heat food should be to still be considered "raw" or "nutritious"--I'm more interested in facts, please. I'm not taking a stance myself--I'm in information-gathering mode on this, so I'm soliciting facts. I've benefited from eating mostly raw, but I don't know all the details behind why and how it works.

All living plants and animals regulate their own temperature, so that they do not get too hot or too cold. Mammals and birds produce heat through respiration to keep their body warm in a cold environment. In a hot environment sweating and increasing blood flow at surface of skin etc can be utilised. Ectothermic animals (eg reptiles and amphibians) regulate their temperature by moving in and out of the sun/shade to warmup or cool down. Plants prevent overheating through transpiration.
These mechanisms occur to try and keep the temperature of the organism at the optimum temperature for their enzymes. That is, the temperature at which the rate of catalysation by the enzymes is greatest. At temperatures above the optimum, enzymes begin to denature. As temperature drops below the optimum enzyme activity decreases (but they are not denatured).
So I would say that the max temp for something to be considered raw is the optimum temperature for the enzymes of that organism when it was alive. For example in humans it would be 37.8 C. However, different organisms have different optimum temperatures. I believe birds for example maintain their core body temperature at approx 40C.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2010, 10:25:27 pm »
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/coconut-oil/msg44670/#msg44670
This butter taste wonderfull and makes me feel good , what else matters unless your a fundamentalist fanatic. Its the only processed food I eat and its nearly raw and organic so I sleep good at night.
Not much else probably matters to you, and I'm not questioning your experience, which is intriguing to me, but your experience doesn't necessarily apply precisely the same way to everyone else, which is why in forums like these people ask questions and others share answers. Questioning and answering--that's the Socratic method and it's a pretty good learning tool in my experience. I've even got links re: Socrates and the Socratic method at my blog, so don't be surprised if I ask a lot of questions. :)

I'm not a fundamentalist fanatic by any stretch of the imagination (not that you were necessarily implying that, but I'll try to put you more at ease by explaining this)--you only have to glance at my avatar caption "mostly-raw facultative carnivore" (it doesn't say 100% raw zero carber, for example)--to know that, and I've been on the receiving end of some tut-tutting in the past for being insufficiently pure in both my rawness and low-carbness, but that coconut butter is expensive and I am more interested in factual answers to my questions than opinions. I'm curious about coconut butter and do intend to try it because coconut oil is indigestible and nasty tasting for me unless I mix it in with something else. If you don't have the answers, that's fine, maybe someone else will. That's the beauty of forums.

Surely it's not out of bounds to ask about the rawness of a food in a place called the "Raw Paleo forum"? I'm open to either interpretation--TD's claim that keeping foods below 40 C is essential and other people's claims that heating up to 45.6 C / 114 F ("low-and-slow", hunter-gatherer style) is OK, though perhaps not optimal. I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I'd like to learn the reasoning and evidence of both sides. I used to lean a little to the low-and-slow cooking is OK side of things, but after I'd been eating mostly raw for a while I started to notice that when suet, pork fat and honey are heated up to 114 F or somewhat higher, they acquire a wee bit of a burnt flavor. Even so-called raw honey that has only been heated up to 90 F or so doesn't taste as good as honey that has never been heated at all above room/shipping temperature. So now I do lean more to the lower-temp side of things, for taste reasons if nothing else, but I also do eat some low-and-slow-cooked foods too and even eat some higher-and-faster cooked foods when I dine at restaurants or relatives' homes and I don't vomit as a result like Tyler reports he does.

...So I would say that the max temp for something to be considered raw is the optimum temperature for the enzymes of that organism when it was alive. For example in humans it would be 37.8 C. However, different organisms have different optimum temperatures. I believe birds for example maintain their core body temperature at approx 40C.
Thanks, Haai, so the sense I'm getting from proponents of the 40 C figure is that it's a rough average of the body temperatures of animals that are consumed and the principal is not to heat anything much above its normal body temperature, yes? And it sounds like the negative effect that heating within the 40 - 45.6 C range is believed to have is to damage the enzymes in the meat eaten. Is that correct and how does 40 C apply to plants?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 10:48:35 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Haai

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2010, 11:26:36 pm »
The optimal temperature for plants is much lower than for animals. I think in the low 20s C. I think the figure will vary across different species of plants though, depending on the climate in which they live and are adapted to. I would be interested to know what the core temperature is for example of a cactus that lives in a hot desert.
So I don't know at what temperature you would consider plants to be no longer raw.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2010, 02:24:29 am »
Yes, 40 degrees celsius is about the point when (some) enzymes start getting denatured. Other enzymes have higher temperature-limits, it all varies.
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Offline miles

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2010, 02:56:00 am »
Don't bees fan air onto honey with their wings to keep it cool or something, or am I mixing something up?
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2010, 02:56:37 am »
Don't bees fan air onto honey with their wings to keep it cool or something, or am I mixing something up?
Yes, I read  about that too.
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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2010, 04:16:38 pm »
http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/general-discussion/coconut's/msg44670/#msg44670

I'm not a fundamentalist fanatic by any stretch of the imagination (not that you were necessarily implying that, but I'll try to put you more at ease by explaining this)--you only have to glance at my avatar caption "mostly-raw facultative carnivore" (it doesn't say 100% raw zero carber, for example)--to know that, and I've been on the receiving end of some tut-tutting in the past for being insufficiently pure in both my rawness and low-carbness, but that coconut butter is expensive and I am more interested in factual answers to my questions than opinions. I'm curious about coconut butter and do intend to try it because coconut oil is indigestible and nasty tasting for me unless I mix it in with something else. If you don't have the answers, that's fine, maybe someone else will. That's the beauty of forums.



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Offline sabertooth

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2010, 04:17:30 pm »
Don't mind My facetious nature, for I am the fundamentalist fanatic I was referring to, because this butter is truly the only processed food I eat, I do believe debate is important as a tool to squeeze out a consensus or at least a mutually understanding of what it is to be a modern day Paleo man.

I'm just a Wild Cat by nature so most of the negative insinuation is part of my feline nature and not an attempt to Buffalo my position, which I stand by, that this butter is about as raw as you can get when it comes to processed coconut, and its leaps and bounds above coconut oil in taste, digestibility, and nutritional content,(these are the issues I would like to discuss on this thread)
I know the importance of the whole raw thing is paramount but you must keep it into the context of the thread which is coconut oil which even if cold presses it is still a non paleo food concentrate, and I think the butter is better because it contains the nutrition of the whole coconut

Like you the oil just didn't set with me right, but the butter seems to work wonders, it has fiber and very low glycemic carbs that seem to buffer the fat and facilitate better digestion and absorbsion, I understand the issue of cost I spend 60 dollars a month on the stuff and I am fairly poor, so all I can give is my testimony and personal recommendation that anyone who uses coconut oil or who wants a better alternative should at least try one jar, I melt the butter and use it for a dipping sauce. Its truly a divine dessert.

I only found it by chance, before I was trying to mix ghee and coconut oil to add fat to my diet, because I didn't yet have a good raw fat source for the low carb approach, It was tolerable, but I didn't feel it was optimal. I fist saw non raw coconut butter on Marks daily apple and was interested in Trying it ,but it took a month or so before I saw it on the store shelf.http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-wonderful-world-of-coconut-products/
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 04:31:11 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline miles

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2010, 11:47:03 pm »
Yes, I read  about that too.

I think I read that British honey should not go above ~20C, whereas honey from warmer climates can go slightly higher, before it is damaged.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2010, 12:52:22 am »
I think I read that British honey should not go above ~20C, whereas honey from warmer climates can go slightly higher, before it is damaged.
I came across a much higher temperature as a guideline(low 30s, I think).
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Offline Haai

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2010, 01:32:35 am »
34 to 35C
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

Offline Michael

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2010, 03:13:23 am »
34 to 35C

Yes, I recall reading that bees fan the honey with their wings in a desperate effort to keep the temperature below 93F.  It was always something which had struck me as rather profound.  I think the same article also noted that if they failed in this attempt that, incredibly, they rejected the honey as a source of food.


Sabertooth, that Artisana coconut 'ambrosia' butter sounds incredible and it's very interesting to read of your positive experiences using it with regard to your otherwise problematic blood sugars.  I'll try to find out if it's available in the UK as I'd be keen to try some myself.

Thanks, Haai, so the sense I'm getting from proponents of the 40 C figure is that it's a rough average of the body temperatures of animals that are consumed and the principal is not to heat anything much above its normal body temperature, yes? And it sounds like the negative effect that heating within the 40 - 45.6 C range is believed to have is to damage the enzymes in the meat eaten. Is that correct and how does 40 C apply to plants?

Thanks for the information Haai
My understanding, Phil, has certainly always been that above the stated temperatures the enzymes begin to denature.  I'd read previously, for instance, that honey apparently contains over 5000 enzymes in it's raw state which are partly responsible for it's benefits.  However, with Alphagruis (I think!?) recently refuting the significance of the enzymes of raw food, I now wonder also about what temperatures are important.  If the enzymes are quickly de-activated by our own digestion and, therefore, unimportant perhaps we should ask - at what temperature does any additional damage become significant?

« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 03:44:31 am by Michael »
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Offline majormark

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2010, 03:51:39 am »

Has anyone tried the "Thai Organc Life" coconut oil?

I just learned that the only way to guarantee that the oil is raw is to obtain it by fermentation.  Some say this brand is the only one that does it and also that most coconut oils (even cold pressed) are obtained by first overheating the coconut pulp.

Unfortunately they are in Thailand and the shipping would cost more than the bottle itself.

So far I tried an oil from the 'now' brand which helped a little with my sunburn at the time, but the skin still pealed off.

Anyway, would you think this thing could work for extracting coconut oil?



Offline Michael

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2010, 06:46:46 am »
The coconut oil I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, majormark, is truly raw fermented oil.  I import it from the US to the UK at great expense!  It's very high quality.

I'm not sure the pictured contraption would do all of the work.  It may be useful as part of a multi-staged process.  If one could obtain the coconuts, I don't see why one couldn't follow a procedure for producing traditionally fermented coconut oil at home.  Your device looks similar to my coconut grater.
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline majormark

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2010, 07:46:52 pm »
If one could obtain the coconuts, I don't see why one couldn't follow a procedure for producing traditionally fermented coconut oil at home.  Your device looks similar to my coconut grater.

That coconut oil ferments at a certain temperature for about 24 hours, so you'd have to have a way to maintain that at home. They have it naturally in Thailand.

I checked some mixed reviews about that oil extractor and it seems the seeds are in general heated by the small lamp at the bottom to generate more oil. That is optional anyway so I will probably try to order one to see how it works.
 

Offline Michael

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2010, 03:18:14 am »
Yes, it may be difficult to maintain the correct temperature here in the UK particularly.  I'll stick to buying it for now but may keep it in mind as a future project.

Keep us posted with your experiments using the extractor!
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
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3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2010, 09:43:11 am »
My local market does have Artisana coconut butter after all. I tried it. It's OK, though it seems rather dry and bland. Could I have gotten an old jar? At least it doesn't give me nausea like coconut oil does.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2010, 07:38:13 pm »
dry? sometimes the oil separates and yo have to heat it to over 80 degrees for it to melt, but I have noticed a different consistency depending on what shipment comes in, usually the oil separates from the top and needs to be blended back in, The main point is that like you coconut oil makes me feel bad and this butter doesn't, and I believe it helped me detox, because I was polluted before this diet and I think the coconut butter has helped me restore my mineral balance.
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Offline Michael

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2010, 01:02:21 am »
I'm disappointed to read your review of the Artisana coconut butter PaleoPhil as I was looking forward to trying some myself.  I've managed to locate a UK supplier!  I guess I should just try it myself anyway.  I have the same issues with nausea caused by even small amounts of coconut oil.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2010, 07:12:28 am »
dry? sometimes the oil separates and yo have to heat it to over 80 degrees for it to melt, but I have noticed a different consistency depending on what shipment comes in, usually the oil separates from the top and needs to be blended back in, The main point is that like you coconut oil makes me feel bad and this butter doesn't, and I believe it helped me detox, because I was polluted before this diet and I think the coconut butter has helped me restore my mineral balance.
I tried blending the oil back in and adding some more oil, but it's still pretty dry/powdery and sticks to the roof of my mouth and my throat like dry peanut butter. I'm guessing it was real old.

... I have the same issues with nausea caused by even small amounts of coconut oil.
Interesting, we seem to have a lot of similarities.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2010, 01:10:11 pm »
Two days in a row that I've tried the coconut butter I've woken up with stomach gas, nausea, malaise and diarrhea. The first time I didn't wake till morning and I figured the diarrhea was probably due to some burdock root I tried. The second time (tonight) I woke during the night and the diarrhea was bad and also accompanied by cramps.

So it looks like I can get coconut butter past my stomach, but then it gives my intestines problems. It may be useful as a laxative, however, if I limit the amounts. Problem is, I don't know what the maximum I can tolerate is.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2010, 06:59:14 pm »
I think it does get old on the shelf, being totaly raw, but I have noticed that the batches have been a little dryer than when I first started tring it.

Coconut is a laxative and you may be having a detox reaction and your bowls are flushing, I'm sorry about your reactions, maybee I am more adapted to the detox effects and now rely on it to keep me clean. Take into account that I eat no other plant fodder so my gut may be primed a little differently Coconut is very cleansing and I wouldn't think that it would be responsible for such gut reactions, I have totally given up all herbs and I have used burdock as well as milk thistle, and from my experience they cause me more problems then they are worth. One mans ambrosia is an other mans gastric distress. so far coconut butter has 1 for and 1 against so who can be the tie breaker

thumbs up or down anyone?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 07:09:29 pm by sabertooth »
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Offline Michael

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2010, 01:22:25 am »
It sounds as though you need to avoid all forms of coconut PaleoPhil.  As you suggest, we have many similarities and so I, too, shall endeavour to experiment with some Artisana coconut butter when I place my next order to see if I have similar reactions.

I'll go for the tiebreaker sabertooth:)
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Coconut oil
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2010, 11:42:37 am »
It does seem that my body doesn't digest coconut butter well, but this may be just the remedy I need. I can consume more of it at a time than coconut oil, so I can achieve more of a laxative effect with less nausea. My thumb is down for coconut butter only as a staple food. If I can find the right dose, maybe it will serve as a workable medicinal.

Plus perhaps the occasional coconut-oil-and-berry akutaq, which I found I also can tolerate better than coconut oil alone. Coconut akutaq is a bit like coconut butter.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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