Author Topic: Honey or no honey?  (Read 12686 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline King Salmon

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating the best realistic diet
    • View Profile
Honey or no honey?
« on: July 14, 2010, 01:27:39 pm »
Do a lot of you ZeroCarbers use honey? Or some other sweetener? I'm just curious to see how long the diet could be done without a sweetener. For example,the "Bear",I believe used aspartame and dairy(which to me cream/milk are sweeteners).I know the people here wouldn't use aspartame,but is it possible to do this diet without a "sweetener" at all(no honey,no sweet dairy)?Let me know,thanks.
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline djr_81

  • Hakuna Matata
  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,246
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Honey or no honey?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2010, 04:11:09 am »
I do just fine with no sweetener.  :)
Liver in excess flares my Candida up so there's mo way I could make a natural sweetener part of my regular diet. I'd never even consider fake sweeteners like Aspartame either.
https://www.facebook.com/djr1981
As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler; solitude will not be solitude, poverty will not be poverty, nor weakness weakness.
-Henry David Thoreau

Offline Nation

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Honey or no honey?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2010, 05:01:28 am »
Given that bees don't live in cold climates and how rare sweetness is in the wild, there's no way sweet is required to achieve perfect health.



Liver in excess flares my Candida up so there's mo way I could make a natural sweetener part of my regular diet.

man, you're quite sensitive to carbs! I haven't looked up how much carbs other offals have, do you get flare ups from any other organs?

Offline djr_81

  • Hakuna Matata
  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,246
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Honey or no honey?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2010, 06:04:23 am »
man, you're quite sensitive to carbs! I haven't looked up how much carbs other offals have, do you get flare ups from any other organs?
I haven't noticed issues with any other organs.
I can handle a bit of liver fine but the more of it I eat the spacier/foggier I get and the longer (days) it takes to recover equilibrium. :(
https://www.facebook.com/djr1981
As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler; solitude will not be solitude, poverty will not be poverty, nor weakness weakness.
-Henry David Thoreau

Offline kurite

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,270
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Honey or no honey?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2010, 06:39:43 am »
Given that bees don't live in cold climates and how rare sweetness is in the wild, there's no way sweet is required to achieve perfect health.



man, you're quite sensitive to carbs! I haven't looked up how much carbs other offals have, do you get flare ups from any other organs?

It gets to below 0 degrees F out here and theres plenty of bees.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2010, 08:45:50 am »
Do a lot of you ZeroCarbers use honey?
Since honey contains carbs, then true ZeroCarbers by definition do not eat honey. Did you mean to ask if any carnivores eat honey? Like bears with carnivorous morphology but omnivorous tastes, I occasionally eat honey, but see it as a treat. I don't regularly use any sweetener.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline King Salmon

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating the best realistic diet
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2010, 09:07:41 am »
Phil: I'm refering to people wo follow the zerocarb WOE.It seems there are differences,like I mentioned above,as to what it truly consists of.Some zerocarbers eat cooked food,some drink coffee(yes,you'll see that on the other ZC site),some eat dairy,some use honey....etc.I guess there should be different classifications just like there are in the vegetarian world.
But,it seems most zerocarbers that I've read about so far tend to "add" something here and there for some reason or another(which is fine).For example,from what I read in Lex's posts,he found he needed to add salt.Bear added milk,cream,aspartame,some add honey....etc.
So,the point is:There must be a reason why honey,milk(sweetener),splenda is added.Is it that after a while the body needs something "different" than just meat??

p.s. I do realize that some people who diet are more concerned with weight loss than health,so that might account for some of the differences.I don't know,just asking.Thanks
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline djr_81

  • Hakuna Matata
  • Global Moderator
  • Mammoth Hunter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,246
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2010, 09:17:12 am »
For example,from what I read in Lex's posts,he found he needed to add salt.
I was doing that for quite a while. I had hypostatic orthotension when I didn't. I cut it out again a couple days ago and things are going better (anecdotally I also seem to be getting more energy from the same amount of food sans salt).
https://www.facebook.com/djr1981
As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler; solitude will not be solitude, poverty will not be poverty, nor weakness weakness.
-Henry David Thoreau

Offline klowcarb

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2010, 09:33:19 am »
Hell, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Honey is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOT zero carb. Ew.

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2010, 10:27:20 am »
Heh, I knew you would flip out if you saw that claim, Katelyn.  ;D

Phil: I'm refering to people wo follow the zerocarb WOE.
I've never heard of someone calling themselves ZC while eating honey regularly. Do they claim that honey is ZC? If so, do they make this claim based on Aajonus' bogus claim that there are no carbs in honey (just "enzymes")?

Quote
It seems there are differences,like I mentioned above,as to what it truly consists of.Some zerocarbers eat cooked food,some drink coffee(yes,you'll see that on the other ZC site), some eat dairy,some use honey...
I used to read ZIOH and never saw anyone claim that honey was ZC. Has someone made that claim there?

Here is something on honey (and other "sugars") by Charles at the ZIOH forum:
Quote
....The neutrophils that we rely on to kill any invading bacteria and viruses form 60% – 70% of the white blood cells in our bodies. They are generally much more active than any other blood cell. It can be disastrous to our health, therefore, if their effectiveness is compromised in any way. But this is exactly what happens if we eat too much carbohydrate and too much sugar in particular.

By ‘sugar’ I do not mean just the white, granulated stuff we serve from a bowl on the table; this is called ‘sucrose’ but the term sugar applies to glucose, fructose (fruit sugar), maltose (grain sugar), honey (a mixture of glucose, fructose, sucrose and dextrin). http://blog.zeroinginonhealth.com/2009/04/28/afraid-of-swine-flu-stop-eating-carbohydrates/

Let me know if Charles is now including honey in his definition of "ZC". I could use another chuckle like the one I enjoyed after reading that he had added milk to his definition. :)

Quote
.etc.I guess there should be different classifications just like there are in the vegetarian world.
Yeah, like "carnivore" and "low carb". That's why this section's title contains "carnivore" as well as "ZC".

Quote
For example,from what I read in Lex's posts,he found he needed to add salt.Bear added milk,cream,aspartame,some add honey....etc.
Salt is not a carb and I wasn't aware that Bear calls himself ZC, but even if he does, that doesn't make honey ZC.

Quote
So,the point is:There must be a reason why honey,milk(sweetener),splenda is added.Is it that after a while the body needs something "different" than just meat??
I don't know and it could be something as simple as they like the taste. You'd have to ask them.

Personally, I find I don't do well on honey (I reported an experiment with it and symptoms after eating honey in my journal), but I don't claim that my experience indicates what the experience of others will be.

Quote
p.s. I do realize that some people who diet are more concerned with weight loss than health,so that might account for some of the differences.I don't know,just asking.Thanks
Yes, I believe that does account for some of the differences in what some low carb dieters eat, though not all. What do you eat and why?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 10:39:49 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline King Salmon

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating the best realistic diet
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2010, 01:20:10 pm »
Phil: I didn't say "regularly".I noticed that Actionhero uses it on occasion.Also,I was trying to refer to sweeteners in a general sense.I asked: "honey or some other sweetener"?
On Charles' site they use all kinds of stuff:splenda,milk,cream,BBQ sauce....whatever.It doesn't matter what Charles' definitions are.I'm talking about what the members actually eat.Haven't you seen the recipes in there???
As far as classifications,there might as well be ones for cooked-ZC, raw-ZC,and part-time raw-ZC. Since this is a raw site then obviously the ones who cook would go to Charles' site.Also,you could have lacto-raw-ZC,or lacto-part-time-raw-ZC :D
I know salt is not a carb.I just mean that it seems the body needs something else other than only meat in a some/maybe a lot of cases(such as dairy,sweetener,and/or salt).
For me,I'm getting to VLC at this point.Seafood,meat,eggs,celery,cucumber,tomato,macadamias.I want to try that for a while and see how I feel.
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline actionhero

  • Bear Hunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2010, 10:11:21 pm »
If you eat honey you are not officially ZC since honey is pure sugar. To me ZC is more about leaving out all plants, fruits and vegetables because of their negative influence on digestion and absorption. Most strict ZC have a reason why they avoid all sugar. It's either to prevent negative health symptoms from returning or they think they will lose control over themselves and start binging which will lead to them gaining fat. If neither of these are you then there is no reason why you shouldn't have raw honey every once in a while. It's a great mood elevator and gives a burst of quick energy. Just don't get hooked on the stuff.                       
A P E X   P R E D A T O R

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2010, 07:35:41 pm »
Phil: I didn't say "regularly".I noticed that Actionhero uses it on occasion.
As I mentioned, if it's not a regular food then it could be regarded as an occasional cheat, but that would not make it zero carb--it would be an acknowledged cheat.

Quote
would be a Also,I was trying to refer to sweeteners in a general sense.I asked: "honey or some other sweetener"?
The answer to that is no, sweeteners in a general sense are not generally regarded as truly "ZC" by anyone other than folks trying to justify their habits. Even zero-carb sweeteners have been found to spike insulin (Charles of ZIOH has actually written about that, and studies have demonstrated this). The most common hypothesis for why is that the super-sweet taste tricks the body into thinking it is ingesting sugar, so the body generates insulin to offset the perceived sugar. Artificial sweeteners are likely unhealthy in other ways and I would personally eat raw honey before I'd eat artificial sweeteners, but to each his/her own. Inclusion of sweeteners of any sort could be regarded as cheats/exceptions/compromises, but I don't see any of them as truly ZC in the spirit of what doing ZC is supposed to be about.

If ZC is to be of any value it needs to provide some benefit and have some rationale for how it works. Most of the rationales that I have seen for why it works include reducing insulin spikes and body fat, which artificial sweeteners allegedly do not do (reports indicate they do the opposite in both cases).

Quote
On Charles' site they use all kinds of stuff:splenda,milk,cream,BBQ sauce....whatever.It doesn't matter what Charles' definitions are.
Correct--at least not to me it doesn't, and apparently not you. I congratulate you on not drinking the ZIOH cool aid. ;) (Not that I have a personal beef of any sort with Charlies or that forum--I learned some good stuff there and first encountered Lex Rooker there, which was a major boon for me--we just have different views on some things.) I see Charles' claim that milk is ZC as an excuse to eat it, not something grounded in fact or supported by evidence.

So, to summarize, if you want to consume sugars, artificial sweeteners, or milk, go ahead, but you aren't likely to convince me that they fit the alleged purposes of most ZC diets, except possibly as cheats for those who are able to stick to diets better by cheating. However--friendly warning--my experience has been that the people that most need cheats and seek others' OK's for doing so tend to be the most highly addicted and the least likely to stick with it--no offense intended.

Quote
I'm talking about what the members actually eat.Haven't you seen the recipes in there???
It sounds like you're talking about the recent bizarre experiments of Charles and others who followed him off the deep end into things like ice cream, yes? Like I said, I don't consider Charles' making and eating of ice cream to be evidence that it's ZC, nor anyone else's following him into that experiment. As I recall, even he admitted it was a cheat, not truly ZC even under his new loose definition. I don't understand how he equates an all-animal-foods-diet that includes milk with ZC, but I can guess why. For one thing, it would be a pain to have to change his URL and Web documents to replace ZIOH and ZC with All Animal Foods (AAF) or something. Plus, AAF isn't as catchy as ZC. :)

Quote
As far as classifications,there might as well be ones for cooked-ZC, raw-ZC,and part-time raw-ZC. Since this is a raw site then obviously the ones who cook would go to Charles' site.
Correct--as well as the Dirty Carnivore site--and that's what folks tend to do. The owner of the DC site (Satya) is a former member of this forum. There's some good info at both forums, though I prefer the latter because it's less dogmatic, more-evidence-based approach is closer to mine.

Quote
Also,you could have lacto-raw-ZC,or lacto-part-time-raw-ZC :D
Heh, heh. At the risk of pissing Tyler off, I think that sort of factionalism and obsession with detail is a wee bit more characteristic of vegan/vegetarian/fruitarian forums than ZC forums, though a faction did split off of ZIOH and it is possible there could be more schisms in the future.

Quote
I know salt is not a carb.I just mean that it seems the body needs something else other than only meat in a some/maybe a lot of cases(such as dairy,sweetener,and/or salt).
Yeah, but you're mixing together disparate things and "it seems the body needs something else" is not a good reason to eat something. I think there is a case for salt intake if not enough salt sources like animal blood are consumed, but the case for salt does not justify dairy or sweetener. To me raw dairy only makes sense as a staple if one is not intolerant and animal body fats are not feasible, and then just the fat and possibly fermented milk. Sweetener only makes sense as one reason for some to eat some whole raw fruit or honeycomb, but never as a processed additive. But to each his own.

So what is the real main reason people eat dairy, sweeteners and salt? Because when combined and processed in certain ways, such as to make ice cream, they taste very good and are very addictive and they are some of the hardest foods to give up. Diet forums are littered with people who either refuse to consider trying to give them up for a time (and they often literally say "I refuse to give up ____") or fail at trying to eliminate them, especially...

> sweet or carby ingredients and foods like sugar, soda pop, marshmallow fluff, frosting, pudding, refined glutinous wheat, honey, artificial sweeteners, fruits (especially fruit candies, drinks, juices, jellies, jams, dried fruits and sugary fruits)
> fatty foods (especially processed fats) like hydrogenated oils, dairy products, fatty corn-fed meats, corn-dogs, peanut butter, pemmican, and bacon
> salty foods like chips and salted nuts
> foods that produce opioids and opioid-like molecules, such as the gluten-rich grains (wheat, rye and barley), gluten-like grains (oats), and milk
> cooked, refined or otherwise processed foods and ingredients

When you combine three or more of these five elements into a single processed food product, you get a formula for addiction (ex: pizza, candy bars, ice cream with candy mix-ins or toppings, granola bars, yogurt with granola or M&M candies, peanut butter and jelly or marshmallow fluff sandwich made with Wonder Bread, cookies, cakes, you get the idea). Just look at what kids' favorite foods are and what happens when they don't get them to see these addictions play out before you.

Even on healthy-diet forums like this one, the foods that people be most passionate about tend to have one or more of these characteristics, such as naturally sweet raw fruits, naturally sweet fruit juices, raw dairy products, raw fatty steaks, pemmican (not truly raw but eaten by some here), unheated honey, coconut cream mixed with unheated honey, etc. If you don't believe me, check the forum for arguments and see which foods people are arguing over. There's a lot more passion displayed for raw fruits, dairy and fatty meats than raw greens, broccoli and lean meats. That doesn't mean the latter are necessarily healthier, it just reveals some of the source of the passion.

Quote
For me,I'm getting to VLC at this point.Seafood,meat,eggs,celery,cucumber,tomato,macadamias.I want to try that for a while and see how I feel.
Good luck. Make sure you get enough fats for your individual needs and unless you're planning on eating a lot of wild, fatty fish, shellfish and seaweeds, I would also read up on and perhaps consider pasture-fed animal fats and organs, sea salt, and young greens (but I'm no expert and still have some symptoms that haven't completely resolved).
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 08:37:37 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline King Salmon

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating the best realistic diet
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2010, 02:28:28 am »
Thanks Phil,I appreciate it.Just to be clear,I'm not asking about sweeteners because I'm eating them or considering them as part of ZC.I'm asking in order to figure out people's habits and behaviors and what they believe is ZC.That's all.
I've been reading Lex's journal and even he ate other stuff once in a while.Like once a month scrambled eggs with butter(cooked).Which is fine.I'm not criticizing,but it's fun to read.Humans are a funny bunch.


As far as fats:So far what I can find is pasteurized butter,rendered beef fat,rendered pork fat(not good enough?).Eggs are helping me quite a bit.As well as fatty fish,ground grass-finished beef,pork,lamb(all from same farm anyway)I'll search for suet/marrow if I feel the need to.Might order from Slanker's.I don't know.
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2010, 05:31:43 am »
I've been reading Lex's journal and even he ate other stuff once in a while.Like once a month scrambled eggs with butter(cooked).
My understanding is that Lex doesn't eat near-ZC (he eats liver as part of his mix regularly) because he thinks it's necessary, but because he tried it as an experiment and since it has been very successful doesn't see a reason to add in plant carbs right now. So I doubt that he's trying to adhere to any particular definition of ZC, though raw ZC approximates his approach (I think RPD or raw carnivore would actually be more accurate terms).

Quote
As far as fats:So far what I can find is pasteurized butter,rendered beef fat,rendered pork fat(not good enough?).Eggs are helping me quite a bit.As well as fatty fish,ground grass-finished beef,pork,lamb(all from same farm anyway)I'll search for suet/marrow if I feel the need to.Might order from Slanker's.I don't know.
I wouldn't bother ordering until you've tried them all and found out what works for you. You don't want to end up with a load of food you don't want.

Re: raw honey, I love the stuff, but if I buy it I find it hard not to eat the entire container within a few days, so I try to resist temptation and buy small containers when I do get it. When I tested my blood sugar after eating some raw honey, it had skyrocketed to pathological levels.
  I've had honey sitting in the cupboard and swear I see a mental image of it and it's like it's calling me (I know it sounds crazy). I think it's a bad sign when a food calls you, and I try to keep such foods out of the house. Raw meat and animal fat never call me. I forget they even exist, but after I eat them I feel great and think, "Oh yeah, that's why meat and animal fat are good to eat--they make me feel great." The good feeling I get from eating meat and fat is very different than a sugar buzz.
  Sugar buzz has an off-feeling after or combined with the buzz and there is often brain fog, scum on the teeth, and other symptoms at the time or the next morning. With raw meat and fat there is only the good feeling and no negative side effects.
  So, yes, I buy raw honey once in a while, or sample some of my sister's, but I don't think it's a good idea.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 05:41:58 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline King Salmon

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating the best realistic diet
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2010, 07:32:23 am »
Yeah sweeteners are pretty addictive.Ask any bear you might come across ;) However,from reading on these forums,one of the benefits of ZC vs VLC/LC is that cravings should cease to exist.But from what you're telling me plus the recipes(ice cream,cheesecake,mousse,hamburgers) on the other site,I guess not ;D

I think one of the things we shouldn't get bogged down on is to try to live up to a particular "classification" of a diet.I mean seriously,did paleo man go around and say,"I'm not eating that fruit/vegetable,I'm ZC"? No way.

sidetrack:I think cooking came about just to expand food availability.First came fire,then came the baked potato.After that,all hell broke loose.That's all,no big mystery 8)

[Moderator note: sorry, KingSalmon, I accidentally modified your note while trying to reply. --PP]
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 10:30:09 pm by PaleoPhil »
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2010, 10:32:26 pm »
Yeah sweeteners are pretty addictive.Ask any bear you might come across ;) However,from reading on these forums,one of the benefits of ZC vs VLC/LC is that cravings should cease to exist.But from what you're telling me plus the recipes(ice cream,cheesecake,mousse,hamburgers) on the other site,I guess not ;D
Speaking only for myself, and not claiming it means anything for anyone else, there are certain foods I used to crave that I don't anymore, such as pizza, ice cream, cheese, crackers, cookies, and other baked goods, but if there are reminders of certain foods, then I do crave them again. I find the biggest trigger of cravings to be eating some of a crave-generating food again and then storing some in the house. Forums like this one in which people rave about raw fruits and honey do tempt as well. Raw fruits and honey give me the strongest cravings these days. Perhaps it's because I still eat them occasionally, but I think there's more to it, since honey is the favorite food of the Hadza, above even meat.

Interestingly, the Hadza women also rank berries above meat, whereas the men rank meat over berries. Scientists think this is because of the gender-based division of labor between hunting and gathering resulting in gender-based dietary differences that had a small effect over millions of years.

Quote
I think one of the things we shouldn't get bogged down on is to try to live up to a particular "classification" of a diet.I mean seriously,did paleo man go around and say,"I'm not eating that fruit/vegetable,I'm ZC"? No way.
Everyone is eating a particular "classificiation" of a diet, even if it's just the SAD or the "anything goes" diet, but I agree with you about avoiding dogma, which is why I'm glad that "Carnivorous" is in the title of this section. Unfortunately, people tend to focus on the "Zero Carb". It's like a lightning rod. It might help to add "Very Low Carb" so folks wouldn't confuse carnivorous with ZC. If we had vegans here they might be more upset by the "Carnivorous".

I'm not a ZCer myself, though I'm close. I'm a RVLCer like you, but I tend to prefer the term "facultative carnivore", because it reminds me less of the dogma that has tainted "ZC" than VLC does. I despise dogma. Plus, animal carbs from liver, eggs and shellfish don't seem to bother me, whereas plant carbs do, so carnivore seems a more appropriate term for me. Most carnivores eat fruits, though I do also eat greens, which isn't typically in a carnivorous diet (other than for some of the omnivorous-eating and herbivorous-eating morphological carnivores like some bears), unless you count grasses and other wild plants that carnivores tend to eat for likely medicinal purposes.

Quote
So far,my RVLC is going really well! I get pure water/sodium from cucumbers and celery(world's best natural water filter)and my other needs are met with what I described above.To me, ZC seems too dry,and I seem to have less cravings than a lot ZC'ers from what I have read so far.But,of course,there is no shortage of opinions ;)
Good for you, and I agree that ZC as conceived by people like those at ZIOH other than Lex Rooker never made complete sense to me. Some ZCers do very well, and the photo transformations at ZIOH are actually much more impressive than the few we have here, but others do not do so well. Despite all the negative talk about pemmican in this forum, the last I checked the all-pemmican-diet eaters, Del Fuego and his family, were still doing very well and looked great. It's hard for me to knock success, even if I wonder whether in the long run they would do better with some organs in their diet. Del Fuego was also experimenting with other foods when I last checked.

Quote
sidetrack:I think cooking came about just to expand food availability.First came fire,then came the baked potato.After that,all hell broke loose.That's all,no big mystery 8)
Yeah, I think most scientists and well-read folks already hold that basic view (excusing the New World potato example, which I'm guessing you meant as a joke).
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline King Salmon

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating the best realistic diet
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2010, 12:05:43 am »
Re: Del Fuego....all pemmican? I didn't know that. I don't know much about pemmican but it seems like a pain to make.If Del Fuego is doing well,then it makes me feel better about using lard/talow though ;) I think Lex experimented with it as well.Don't know about currently though.I know it's a hot topic so I won't bother you about it here too much.
However,I did notice that Charles seems to be doing well on cooked/partially cooked grain-fed(possibly feedlot)meats that he buys at WalMart.I guess the kicker will be:long-term effects.But,like we've discussed,he's already added a few "extra" items to his menu.So,we'll see.But for me,I just don't like to cook anyway.Hate cleaning up after,I'd rather have all that fat inside me than scrubbing it off the pan ;D
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline King Salmon

  • Elder
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Gender: Male
  • Eating the best realistic diet
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2010, 04:29:27 pm »
Addition to above post: I've been reading Lex's journal.I'm on page 52 now.I came across the part about Delfuego and pemmican.Weird that he can't deal with raw though.Lex said he didn't know what the deal was and that it sounded overly dramatic.All I can say is this:There are also plenty of families who eat SAD and look great as well.Some of these people are professional athletes.They look better than any raw fooder anywhere.George Forman eats hot dogs and hamburgers.Most people who come to raw foods,animal,plant or otherwise,do it because their health got messed up somewhere down the line.A lot of them look like crap.Once in a while you'll see one guy that looks good and think "wow, whatever he's doing that's what I should do".I'm not going on a hamburger/hot dog diet just to copy George Forman.Sometimes it's because of luck,genetics,whatever.But there are people who are healthy enough to not even think about "diet" and "foods".So David Wolfe thrives on honey and cacao.Delfuego thrives on pemmican.Pick your poison -d
"Eat the best of what's available and call it a day"

Offline PaleoPhil

  • Mammoth Hunter
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,198
  • Gender: Male
  • Mad scientist (not into blind Paleo re-enactment)
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2010, 06:35:28 am »
...But for me,I just don't like to cook anyway.Hate cleaning up after,I'd rather have all that fat inside me than scrubbing it off the pan ;D
Heh, heh. Same here. Originally eating raw was going to be a temporary experiment for me, and then I would test a standard cooked-Paleo diet again and see what happened, but when I started listing all the reasons for me to eat raw in response to bogus assumptions made about it, I started to wonder why I should eat much cooked again. I still can't come up with good reasons to eat cooked, other than occasionally in social situations.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline MoonStalkeR

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2010, 04:01:48 am »
Honey sounds like a reasonable carb source for transition.

On one hand, you don't have to deal with destructive plant matter invading your GI tract. On the other hand, you get a fast, heavy dose of concentrated sugars which doesn't sound healthy either. I can also imagine the yeasts throwing a party afterwards...

Honey does sound safer than fruits or veggies for carbs, depending on situation.

Offline klowcarb

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2010, 04:56:20 am »
Just go ZC cold "turkey." Mmmm, meat.  :)

Offline MoonStalkeR

  • Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 276
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2010, 07:08:00 am »
Speaking of going cold turkey, did anyone try raw turkey meat?

Offline klowcarb

  • Chief
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2010, 09:08:53 am »
Poultry doesn't appeal to me, raw or cooked.

Offline Haai

  • Shaman
  • *****
  • Posts: 484
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Honey or no honey?
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2010, 07:02:48 pm »
Speaking of going cold turkey, did anyone try raw turkey meat?

I ate a lot of it when I first started raw paleo. This was mainly because, apart from the fact that I liked it, I had read Lorren Cordain's book and, as most of us here know, he highly recommends lean meat, such as turkey.
"In the modern, prevailing view of the cosmos, we sit here as tiny, unimportant specks of protoplasm, flukes of nature, and stare out into an almost limitless void. Vast, nameless tracts of emptiness dominate the scene. Talk about feeling small.
But we do not look out at the universe; it is, instead, within us, as a rich 3-D visual experience whose location is the mind" - R. Lanza, Beyond Biocentrism.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk