Author Topic: Hunting  (Read 55104 times)

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alphagruis

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2009, 08:51:44 pm »
Well, the main problem comes from fairly densely populated areas as in many regions here in Europe. Even a shotgun with slugs has a range usually as large as one mile not to speak of rifles whose ranges may be typically 3 or 4 miles. Maybe less powerful firearms might do the job too.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2009, 09:08:50 pm »
What about spears? this is more like my cup of tea. I'm pretty quick and I've gotten very close before (spear less though) I'm still a little freaked by killing animals though. Not hungry enough.
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alphagruis

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #77 on: December 31, 2009, 10:28:24 pm »
Yes, I also think that we cannot be really comfortable with the fact that in the act of hunting modern firearms make us so tremendously superior to our preys.

Offline Sitting Coyote

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2009, 10:35:14 pm »
What I should have said regarding the use of firearms for hunting is that they're freaking dangerous the way hunters currently use them.  They don't have to be.  Here in Vermont, and in most states in the US, you have to take some kind of hunter safety course before you can buy your hunting license.  These hunter safety courses are usually de facto firearm safety courses.  Most include a few common elements:

1.  Always make sure you have a solid backstop before you pull the trigger or release your arrow,

2.  Always make sure you can clearly see what you are shooting at,

3.  Never walk around with a cartridge in your firearm's chamber or a nocked arrow.

If all hunters followed these three rules, particularly those hunters who choose to use firearms, there would be no hunting accidents.  No toddlers shot in their homes, no hunters shot by other hunters, no hunters shot by themselves.  Firearms don't have to be dangerous, but hunters choose to make them dangerous because of they way they choose to handle and use them.

Personally, I prefer bowhunting over using firearms.  You have to practice a lot more, and you have to be far pickier regarding what shot you take, but to me that's a small price to pay.  Besides, I make my own bows out of wood staves and I enjoy shooting them, so the practice part is a pleasure.  And if you can develop good field craft, it becomes relatively easy to get close enough to take a clean shot.  This past season I got within 3 yards of a fawn and 5 of a spike that I'd guess weighed 160 pounds, although I let them both walk by.  I wasn't hungry enough to kill a fawn and here in Vermont we have peculiar rules regarding how large a buck's antlers need to be to make him legal and I don't think the spike's antlers were quite big enough. 


Offline jessica

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2009, 11:02:53 pm »
most of my friends hunt with bows, and my family used to use that method, however the men in my family(they are the drunk rednecks of the woods) had often shot an animal and watched it run away with an arrow in its neck!  totally unacceptable.  if and when i hunt i will be taking a riffle, although i have no problem learning to shoot with a bow, i wouldnt use that method until i was entirely certain that i had an excellent shot.  i would honestly shoot a dear, chase it and shoot its brains out.  i know that sounds cruel but i would want it dead as quickly and throughly as possible to insure the least bit of suffering!  we have wild turkeys up here too...they are pretty large and i have found some feather recently where i have no seen birds before(YUM!)
i always think in a survival situation i would spear a deer, but youd probably have to have a few hunters, stalk and corner an animal unless you were preying on a smaller deer because they are extremely strong and fast

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2009, 11:36:39 pm »
Guns have always freaked me out. I've never felt comfortable with that much power in my hands and won't be going hunting anytime soon. When I was in college, several of my fraternity brothers would go hunting and it seemed for the most part to be an excuse to drink. They even have camoflauged beer cans now.

Offline Sitting Coyote

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #81 on: January 01, 2010, 12:04:21 am »
I've thought on a few occasions about making a really sturdy spear and finding a remote place to try and kill a deer with it.  I've certainly been successful at getting close enough.  Heck, about 6 years ago I got close enough to touch a wild fawn, although it was just a fawn and they're not as attentive as older deer.  And this year I got within 3 yards of another fawn, close enough to jump out and slap it before it could run away.  I could easily have speared it.

One aspect of using a longer range weapon to kill an animal is that you don't have to watch what happens between the impact of your projectile and when the animal finally stops moving.  When you take a hunter safety, or hunter "education", class, they generally recommend that you stay where you were when you made the shot for at least 30 minutes before you try to find the animal.  They recommend this to prevent an animal from running further than it normally would before expiring so that it's easier to find, but I think it serves a double purpose.  I think another important reason they recommend this is to protect hunters who still have some semblance of a soul from having to watch an animal die. 

When I shot my deer this past fall I saw it fall within 10 feet of where I'd shot it.  So rather than waiting I hustled down from the cliff I was perched on to tag my deer.  I got down to it in about five minutes and still got to watch a couple minutes worth of agonized writhing before the deer went still.  Before this experience I had this idealized vision that a deer gets shot and just plops down dead.  NOT!  Even when you shoot a deer with a rifle and hit the vitals, unless you get the perfect shot the animal suffers for at least a couple minutes and often several minutes before it finally goes still.  While watching the deer writhe part of me wanted to load another cartridge and end its suffering with a close-range head shot, but I was carrying a 0.308 so if I did that I could well have blown its head wide open.  Maybe next year I'll carry a 0.22 pistol with me during rifle season, although they don't let us carry firearms into the woods during archery season here in Vermont. 

Perhaps it sounds strange, but being able to experience the above is a large part of the reason why I choose to hunt.  It's painful to participate in the process of killing an animal (unless you've successfully buried your soul beneath years of modern pragmatism), but I think it's important to go through that if you're going to eat meat.  I think it's easy for people to glorify meat eating when they're able to slough the duty of killing onto someone else and just get the end product.  When the duty of killing is on your own shoulders, the whole process is far more demanding and powerful, at least for me. 

I think I read on this thread about someone who wanted to eat liver and kidneys of a fresh kill right after field dressing.  By the time I got to field dressing after having shot the deer and watched it die I was in tears and I didn't eat anything for three days.  Not because I was grossed out, as I've butchered deer before and butchering mine wasn't any different, but just because the process of putting a living, breathing, walking, browsing animal in the crosshairs of my rifle and then intentionally making it dead was a very powerful experience.  I hope that it never becomes any less powerful, and while I will certainly continue to eat meat my desire to abandon omnivory in favor of carnivory has certainly been tempered.

alphagruis

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #82 on: January 01, 2010, 01:21:56 am »
Interesting and nice comments. I agree, there is basically something wrong when people who eat meat never have to kill the animals their meat comes from. They can't get an appropriate perception of the reality and sense of responsibility IMHO.
As to carnivory versus omnivory, I'm rather omnivore because I've not yet encountered any serious reason to adopt such simplistic views as "plant foods or carbs are bad and animal foods are good" for homo sapiens. The only thing i'm pretty sure of is that we can't be healthy over many generations without a good deal of food from animal origin and I was never a vegan.

As to the firearms use and manipulation safety rules, you recall in your post, Eric, in  order to get a hunting license here in France one has to pass an exam that includes tests in theory and practise. Nevertheless there are accidents almost every year, one reason being that alcohol and hunting are probably still too often mixed.... 

William

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #83 on: January 01, 2010, 01:25:01 am »
I'm guessing that no farmers are here. I've seen lots of chickens killed, and the killers did not emote all over the place about it. Same for other livestock, and some are killed with a rifle at close range, for example penned hogs.


The trick is to see the prey as mobile food until it is dead, then do the spiritual thing for the sake of your soul as all traditional hunters did.

It might be a good idea for the nice girls of both sexes among us to buy a live chicken or 9, whack its head off with an ax, and watch it do the dance of death. Deer are less entertaining.

alphagruis

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #84 on: January 01, 2010, 01:53:40 am »
I've killed a lot of domestic chickens exactly as you describe it, William. A wild deer is fairly different, it's a mighty wonderful most elegant land mammal much closer to our species than chicken. I never killed one but for sure I'll do it if I'll have to do it.

Offline Sitting Coyote

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #85 on: January 01, 2010, 03:42:07 am »
I'm guessing that no farmers are here. I've seen lots of chickens killed, and the killers did not emote all over the place about it. Same for other livestock, and some are killed with a rifle at close range, for example penned hogs.

Thanks for your comments William and alphagruis.  No offense to you, William, but the above statement perfectly captures my idea of burying one's soul beneath years of modern pragmatism.  A farmer who sells meat from his livestock can't afford to emote all over the place.  After all, he (or she) has pigs, cows, chickens to kill, and a bottom line to worry about if he's to keep his business afloat. 

It is this pragmatic approach to viewing animals as economic products to be bought and sold that, I believe, steals some of our humanity and robs us of our philosophical links to our ancestors.  It's difficult if not impossible to escape, to be sure.  I won't need to buy meat this year on account of my deer, but will probably buy eggs now and then and perhaps a grass-fed cow liver or other organs to supplement.  And, of course, I'll buy vegetables, which don't want to die any more than the deer did.

So I guess I'm left with a question:  How should I live so as to maintain as much of my humanity as I can while still eating the diet my body is designed for?

Offline Sitting Coyote

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #86 on: January 01, 2010, 03:52:40 am »
And alphagruis, you are certainly right about the dangers in combining alcohol and the use of firearms.  As someone who's never drank I forget about that.  Strange, since all of the other relatives I have who hunt also happen to be alcoholics...

Offline djr_81

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2010, 04:34:12 am »
So I guess I'm left with a question:  How should I live so as to maintain as much of my humanity as I can while still eating the diet my body is designed for?
Do just what you are doing. The larger the animal the less of them you need to kill to continue your existence. This is the way of the wild, why fight it? I don't see an issue with reverence to the prey but it must be secondary to survival.
Supplement with intelligent fruit choices if you are looking to minimize your "ethical/moral footprint" as they are produced by the plant to propagate and spread it's progeny. Just make sure you get a good amount of good quality raw fat and meat as it's our healthiest/best source of nutrition. :)
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William

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #88 on: January 01, 2010, 04:44:19 am »


So I guess I'm left with a question:  How should I live so as to maintain as much of my humanity as I can while still eating the diet my body is designed for?

Paleoman was at least as human as we IMHO, and pragmatically killed to feed his loved ones. It might be possible to see oneself as part of the ecological balance, now that there are not enough wolves to cull the herd.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #89 on: January 01, 2010, 08:26:38 am »
As Eric knows, Randall Eaton has written and lectured extensively on the ethics of hunting. Lierre Keith has done the same on the ethics of eating meat. No matter what we eat, animals will be killed. When land is razed and plowed for crops and planted with monocrops, a host of animals are slaughtered as a result--even if no pesticides are used--many dying slowly and cruelly through starvation or dehydration. This is why the only areas in the world that are biodiverse are those that have no large-scale crop agriculture or urban development (ex: what remains of the Amazon forest). Because they don't see the animals they kill, vegetarians, vegans and PETA activists fool themselves into believing that no animals suffer or die as a result of their behavior. It's a lie.

See also: "A More Dangerous Game Bears On The Golf Course, Deer On The Windshield, Wolves On The Walk Back Home: How the decline of hunting is changing the natural order of predator and prey," by MATTHEW TEAGUE, November 24, 2008, http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1148866/index.htm. We have become further and further distanced from nature, with disastrous consequences in many ways beyond those described here.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
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alphagruis

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #90 on: January 01, 2010, 06:58:08 pm »
I agree PaleoPhil, of course vegans or other anti-hunting activists are plain wrong. Most of the vegans are actually living in urban areas and so have indeed become completely distanced from nature. They don't really know what they talk about or what ecology actually is or means.

But we cannot escape from what is in my opinion the central (and unfortunately hot) issue in the present discussion. Almost 7 billions homo sapiens exceeds by far the carrying capacity of this biosphere. This is a clear cut conspicuous sign that much too much biomass is by now in our human bodies and much too little remains in other wild (or domestic) healthy animals we are designed to live off. The mere existence of this forum clearly demonstrates that it becomes more and more difficult to keep healthy as an individual in this situation precisely because of this definite loss or lack of balance that obviously implies a "sick biosphere".

That's what makes me (and should make everybody IMHO) at least somewhat uncomfortable when we have to kill wild animals, not of course the mere fact or law of Nature that we have to kill for survival. We unfortunately no more live in paleotimes but after a 10000 years long neolithic disaster.    

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #91 on: January 02, 2010, 03:47:38 am »
...That's what makes me (and should make everybody IMHO) at least somewhat uncomfortable when we have to kill wild animals, not of course the mere fact or law of Nature that we have to kill for survival. We unfortunately no more live in paleotimes but after a 10000 years long neolithic disaster.    
Yes, people can go too far to extremes in either direction--both anti-hunting fanaticism and careless hunting that results in extermination. Achieving balance is more nuanced and more difficult, but also more responsible. One of the long-term keys toward achieving balance is of course voluntary reduction of human overpopulation through birth control, as well as breastfeeding and improved diets and exercise that results in greater spacing between children, and any other good ideas people can come up with. Since I doubt anyone is ever going to have any success promoting killing humans instead of animals or re-introducing predators into heavily populated areas (but feel free to give it a try if you doubt me), conscientious hunting for food is not only sacred, healthy and enjoyable, it appears to be necessary to avoid overconcentration of certain prey species leading to environmental devastation plus rampant disease and starvation among those same species.

My parents used to have a cottage on Lake Ontario in New York state. The deer population there became so overpopulated that every small tree was stripped of all its low branches and deer-reachable greenery (it was rare to see any tree so stripped when my parents first moved there)--every single young tree that I saw! Gardening became nearly impossible, even with wire fencing, because the deer and other prey animals ate everything.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 03:59:57 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Sully

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2010, 06:28:40 am »
What about spears? this is more like my cup of tea. I'm pretty quick and I've gotten very close before (spear less though) I'm still a little freaked by killing animals though. Not hungry enough.
I would like to do spear hunting too. Hers a nice video of modern spear hunting.
I don't get freaked out by killing animals necessarily, I just make sure some potentially dangerous ones are dead. I got pretty aggressive with the squirrel I killed. Shot it. Then smashed its head with a bat. Yeah I know, its just a small squirrel lol, but have you ever seen how those things fight? Wow, gray tree squirrels are no joke, huge fangs too. I was also in a hurry to snag and bag it so no one saw me. I didn't even expect to kill a squirrel that morning.


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oldest form of hunting here...a baboon demonstrates

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2010, 07:31:42 am »
Wow, amazingly easy pickins in both cases (though a herd of stampeding buffalo can be scary, of course). Good vids, thanks.

Why/how did you have a bat with you when you shot the squirrel?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 07:47:12 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Sully

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2010, 08:19:46 am »
Why/how did you have a bat with you when you shot the squirrel?
Well, I shot the squirrel from my bedroom aiming out the window. I had a miniature wooden bat in my room. Hoping no neighbors or my landlord wouldn't see me, I went outside with the bat and a bag, put it out of its misery and assured the fang tooth gremlin was dead and I bagged it. It was an unexpected kill, I acted fast and was excited.

I knew people would think I was crazy. It might be better to have a hunting licenses next time and go to the woods. :)  I would like to go hunting squirrels and small game with something like a small solid stick or a boomerang. Stun it then finish it off with a bat or a spear to the organs. I enjoy physical hunts much more than just pointing a gun (although that takes skill too, its just not my cup of tea).






Offline Sitting Coyote

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2010, 02:42:21 am »
Hi Sully, from your posts it seems to me a tool that would suit you better than a boomerang, bat and spear for squirrels and similar-sized game would be a throwing stick.  You can join PaleoPlanet and learn about how to make them.  A boomerang is a throwing stick designed so that it comes back, but most throwing sticks don't come back.  A throwing stick is a hard, usually stout stick that's about the length of your arm or just a bit shorter.  There are all sorts of different designs.

If you're going to take a finishing shot or stab on something small like a squirrel, you should go for the head rather than the organs.  Organs are too valuable as food to destroy. 

William

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2010, 04:50:43 am »

If you're going to take a finishing shot or stab on something small like a squirrel, you should go for the head rather than the organs.  Organs are too valuable as food to destroy. 

Better to shoot it in the brain in the first place, then you don't have to see it suffer and do something as crude as beating it to death. (been there, done that)
An accurate .22lr rifle, using sub-sonic match quality ammunition so as not to alarm the neighbours would be the answer.


Offline Sully

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2010, 05:05:12 am »
Hi Sully, from your posts it seems to me a tool that would suit you better than a boomerang, bat and spear for squirrels and similar-sized game would be a throwing stick.   A throwing stick is a hard, usually stout stick that's about the length of your arm or just a bit shorter.  There are all sorts of different designs.

If you're going to take a finishing shot or stab on something small like a squirrel, you should go for the head rather than the organs.  Organs are too valuable as food to destroy.  
That's what I would use, a solid stick for throwing, simple and effective. As for finishing it off, I finished the squirrel by hitting it in the head with the bat. If I had a long stick or spear. A stab to the organs would work and would still preserve them for eating, but bashing in the head like you said would be easier for smaller animals. Which is what I did with the bat. I did an up and down motion, as if thrusting a pole in the ground.

Offline Sitting Coyote

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2010, 05:27:49 am »
Whether an "up-and-down" motion is ideal depends on how the animal is oriented on the ground.  You don't need to crush an animals head to kill it.  In my experience, which primarily comes from killing rabbits, a killing blow is best executed by hitting the animal on the back of the head.  So if the animal were sitting on the ground the way a squirrel or rabbit would normally sit, you aren't striking straight down but are striking a little from its rear, making sure to impact at the back of its head at the base of its skull.  This separates the skull from the first or second cervical vertebrae and usually shatters at least a couple of the vertebrae in the process, insuring an instant kill.  The animal might shudder a little, but it's dead.

Killing an animal is never as clean as we would like it to be, so I'm just trying to offer some ideas as to how to make it as clean as possible.  I mentored a college guy this summer in dispatching a rabbit he'd been raising, and he was understandably hesitant to take the swing.  I got him to do it finally and it was a perfect shot, the animal was dead right after impact.  But he saw the animal shudder and started to panic, and before I could stop him he started hammering at the rabbit's head.  He cracked it six more times before I was able to get the stick out of his hand, although most of his blows hit it in the head so damaged meat was minimal. 

Offline Sully

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Re: Hunting
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2010, 09:11:47 am »
Truthfully I don't care. Bloody, messy, dirty, whatever whatever etc etc. I don't give a damn.

Your putting way to much thought behind how to kill something for my liking. Its simple, JUST DO IT.
I kill to eat it, and I happen to enjoy killing it as well. Sometimes it may suffer a hard death sometimes not. I just don't care.


 

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