Author Topic: Raw Bone Meal  (Read 29377 times)

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Offline Hannibal

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2010, 01:32:54 am »
I do believe cooking can make certain things more 'bio-available'
Which ones?
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2010, 01:37:44 am »
Which ones?

Grains are made more bioavailable via cooking. The only palaeo foods that become more bioavailable after cooking are raw eggs, and raw veg(if heated only a little). Of course, the creation of heat-created toxins as a result cancels out the benefit of extra nutrients  completely.
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Offline Hannibal

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2010, 01:51:19 am »
Grains are made more bioavailable via cooking.
That's true. But grains are really health hazardous.
Quote
The only palaeo foods that become more bioavailable after cooking are raw eggs (..)
Egg whites - yes.
But yolks - definitely no. That's biochemically proven that they are more bioavailable when they are raw.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline yuli

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2010, 01:51:54 am »
Cooking tomatos increases lycopene, some antioxidants become more available after cooking in veggies....some nutrients are highly water or fat soluble etc...there are many examples...
The point is that after eating too much cooked food our digestion suffers, no doubt about it, but I think that adding only a little amount or the RIGHT cooked food can be good.
Yes maybe eating only 90% raw and then adding 10% or 5% of the most nutritious cooked food possible is increasing your toxins slightly (VERY SLIGHTLY as some lightly cooked foods are not as toxic). BUT I don't care if my toxins are increased SLIGHTLY, just living on this polluted planet increases your toxins MORE then slightly (then I may as well kill myself anyway if I want to be 100% without any toxins because I can't).
I will always keep a tiny amount of the RIGHT cooked foods in my diet because it keeps me well versed in eating different kinds of foods and it keeps my digestion working, slightly stressing it is not a bad thing, IMO it's actually GOOD to be able to handle at least a little bit of stress, even in your diet sometimes.
But thats just my opinion, I never ever like to be 100% anything, there is no reason to unless you're dying of a disease.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2010, 01:59:04 am »
The amounts of pollutants in the environment are microscopically tiny by comparison to the amounts found even in just lightly-cooked foods.

As for lycopene etc., sure some substances may increase but heating changes their nature, thus actualy reducing the bioavailability of those nutrients, making it more difficult and stressful for the body tot ake in such nutrients.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2010, 02:07:27 am »
Cooking tomatos increases lycopene, some antioxidants become more available after cooking in veggies....
But the vitamin C is lost and some other nutrients are diminished.
Besides tomatos are nighshides - they're unhealthy.
There is a plethora of antioxidants in raw animal foods and raw fruits (esp. wild ones).


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Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline yuli

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2010, 02:22:39 am »
The amounts of pollutants in the environment are microscopically tiny by comparison to the amounts found even in just lightly-cooked foods.

Maybe if you live in a pristine natural environment, after biking all day in the city, no amount or raw meat can save me from all the pollution I rode through, I have to take a shower after or I am covered with shit. The air in cities is polluted, you're breathing fumes from factories and cars.... After I was in a clean natural place for 3 weeks this summer I came back and could hardly breathe! And I am not even right in the city just the outskirts...with greenery around.... Don't tell me that if you live in a completely toxin free place and you eat a boiled carrot you're putting in as much toxins then if you live close to a city or around cars, fumes etc and eat 100% raw...even if there's studies on it I don't buy it. Go by the way you feel....when I was in very clean nature for a long time I felt good even when I ate cooked foods. In the city raw meat diet is helping but quite as fast as was living in clean air and getting lots of sun. So I am sure if I lived in clean natural place, ate mostly raw food, and added a cooked carrot or small amount of bone soup with egg white the toxins I would get would be completely irrelevant. When you are living a clean life your body should have no problem getting rid of toxins in small amounts of cooked foods.

As for lycopene etc., sure some substances may increase but heating changes their nature, thus actualy reducing the bioavailability of those nutrients, making it more difficult and stressful for the body tot ake in such nutrients.

Thats true, but I don't know...if the body gets too stressed to eat a small piece of cooked food (nutritious one not junk-food) then to me that body is not strong enough.

I believe that eating raw animal meats and mostly primal raw foods is awesome for your health.
I believe that we don't ever need grains nor are they any good for us, this I know well from experience.
I don't buy that eating a small amount of cooked food wreaks more havoc on you then our polluted human-infested environment and the everyday stress of modern-life....
I don't buy that the toxins created when you eat a small amount of cooked food will affect a truly healthy person in any significant way, not should they - if humans ere that sensitive then that would be sad.
I believe that certain cooked foods in small amounts can put some necessary stress for my digestion (yes I like to have a little stress in everything), while still giving me nutrients, plus from the sick amount of nutrients that you get from eating a raw diet, does eating having one food with slightly less nutrients cause it was slightly cooked matter in the big scheme, nah!

Offline yuli

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2010, 02:29:06 am »
But the vitamin C is lost and some other nutrients are diminished.
Besides tomatos are nighshides - they're unhealthy.
There is a plethora of antioxidants in raw animal foods and raw fruits (esp. wild ones).

Its too easy to get enough Vit C, there are many fruits high in it, just eat one and you're good.

Nightshades don't bother me...I know some people are sensitive to them - but I love nightshades - especially tomatoes and wolfberries. I heard they are poisonous, oh well, so are magic mushrooms and weed, some poisons are good in small amounts and moderation.

Great! There is a PLETHORA of antioxidants in these raw foods.... then adding a little cooked food shouldn't matter as long as its a nutritious food and you combine it correctly! Because you already are eating a plethora of nutrients!

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2010, 02:32:03 am »
Yuli, that's not so true.
Before the pollution from cars, factories, etc. existed people still had suffered from lots of diseases and lived quite short in spite of pristine environment.  You know why? Because they had eaten health hazardous foods.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2010, 02:34:41 am »
The point is not that eating a small piece of cooked food one time is really bad for you. The point is that if you REGULARLY eat even just some lightly cooked foods, you will build up some levels of heat-created toxins in the body over time. More to the point, as you get into old age, the amounts of heat-created toxins in your body become far more of a danger, so that the less you have of them, the better off you are.Bear in mind that the body also produces natural amounts of AGEs within the body causing some minor stress, even if one is eating 100% raw, as they are part of the natural processes of the body, so overloading the body's lnatural levels of AGEs with even higher amounts derived from  cooked foods is a bad idea.

As for pollution, I will grant that a few areas are really bad re pollution(Mexico City, for example), but, here in London, a capital city in a Western industrialised nation, pollution really isn't a serious issue for me.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline yuli

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2010, 02:51:28 am »
Yuli, that's not so true.
Before the pollution from cars, factories, etc. existed people still had suffered from lots of diseases and lived quite short in spite of pristine environment.  You know why? Because they had eaten health hazardous foods.

Yeah hazardous foods like too much grains, too much rice etc...
I agree that grains can be hazardous...I wasn't talking about eating any grains for this reason.

Tyler...regarding pollution, I live in a clean area too, there's no smog around me and lots of parks, often I think oh how nice the air is here around my house...well after coming back from nature vacations believe me I can tell VERY easily, it is NOT as clean. To me its very significant in terms of toxins, not just New Mexico but any industrialized place. Even sitting around computers creates a certain level of stress, everything does.

Regarding your body building up toxins - I agree it can happen especially with too much cooked food. But your body also has the amazing property to heal you and get rid of toxins....things don't just go in they go out too! How much toxins overload your body depend on how healthy your body is and how well your body eliminates toxins. Yes it can be individual...

I'll give my dad as an example, he is like 51 now but he looks like in his early 40's...he smokes cigarettes and eats a diet of mostly cooked food (just not too much junk food). 6 years ago he looked waaay older, now he looks too good for his age....why....he bikes very long time everyday, does many good exercises, strength stuff...his lungs, even though he smokes, are stronger then any peoples lungs I know, his skin is nice and he has rosy cheeks. He can swim for hours...he is very strong, I can't keep up with him sometimes. This is a good example of a healthy body being put to stress but eliminating toxins almost at the same rate. You can only imagine how well HE would do if he switched his cooked meat to be raw.

Many people that lived past 100 added a little cooked food to their diet, no biggie, its the big picture that matters.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2010, 03:08:54 am »
The human body only has a very limited ability to get rid of heat-created toxins such as AGEs from the body. While it is possible to eliminate the natural amounts of AGEs produced within the human body regardless of diet, eliminating the higher amounts of heat-created toxins derived from cooked foods is not possible with one sole exception:- caloric restriction which scientific studies have shown to reduce levels of AGEs(this is logical as the less cooked food one eats the less toxins one takes into the body, and, with fasting, the human body has enough time to get rid of some of the toxins before more toxins arrive from the next cooked food meal.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline yuli

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2010, 03:50:38 am »
The human body only has a very limited ability to get rid of heat-created toxins such as AGEs from the body. While it is possible to eliminate the natural amounts of AGEs produced within the human body regardless of diet, eliminating the higher amounts of heat-created toxins derived from cooked foods is not possible with one sole exception:- caloric restriction which scientific studies have shown to reduce levels of AGEs(this is logical as the less cooked food one eats the less toxins one takes into the body, and, with fasting, the human body has enough time to get rid of some of the toxins before more toxins arrive from the next cooked food meal.

That's very interesting....hence why we should all fast sometimes and not always keep eating and eating - it makes sense to me.
The important fact is your body CAN get rid of AGEs, just like it can get rid of most any other toxins and bad substances IF given the chance!

Now lets say if only one of your 10 meals is cooked (and I mean LIGHTLY cooked not talking about deep fried crap), then you are eating 10% of your diet cooked....That means that you should fast 10% of the time. Since fasting is a normal and natural occurrence and since AGEs are already produced by the human body naturally (like cancer is) - all that has to be done is to keep them under control using natural method such as "stop stuffing your face with food 24/7" method :o

Most long lived people that I heard of did not eat too much, ate mostly raw, but did add a small amount of cooked item here and there, they still lived to over 100 and were healthy in their old age. One guy ate all raw vegetables, raw fish every day (no other meats by his choice) but had a slice of whole grain toast every morning (horrible I know)...well guess what, despite the toast all the raw stuff he ate, and the fish, and the fact that he never over-ate, he ate little in fact, still worked out well for him it seems.

The point is our body produces AGEs naturally, and it gets rid of them naturally. Its a cycle that you can keep spinning forever if you know what you're doing (like the example of the dude above). Heave you eaten too much cooked food, then stop eating...eventually your body WILL recover...if you put your body in a CONSTANT state of recovery you should be able to manage it a bit of cooked food without problems.

Also why do we need to completely eliminate AGEs? We just need to not have too many built up. To me this feels like when people were saying to not eat fish because it all has mercury, so what, we can handle a minute amount of mercury.

Also regarding the studies on AGEs, you know they could be wrong right? I love science but there's many "studies" and they all can be subjective, thats why studies contradict one another sometimes.
More importantly....
Is there, like, a formula they devised for exactly how many AGE's are produced by which cooked foods, have they actually measured it, and how long it takes for them to leave the body??? I'd love to see some specific numbers and formulas...
For example, if I eat 1 baked potato, exactly how many AGEs do I actually absorb into my body, and exactly how long will it take to leave the body if I am eating A) 0 calories of raw food, B) 100 calories of raw food, C) 1000 calories of raw food and so on.
And does the calories from fat eliminate it faster then calories from sugar....
If I can use their studies to calculate that....
THEN that would be really interesting and useful!!!  ;D

Offline Hannibal

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2010, 04:10:05 am »
There is much more drawbacks of cooking foods.
AGEs is only one element.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2010, 04:23:52 am »
There is much more drawbacks of cooking foods.
AGEs is only one element.
Correct, there's the lack of enzymes which reduces digestion and puts strain on the body's own enzyme-production, then there's the lack of bacteria in cooked foods, and many other heat-created toxins that are found in cooked foods and are NOT produced in the body in natural amounts, such as nitrosamines, heterocyclic amines, and polyclic aromatic hydrocarbons(that last type of toxin, polyclic aromatic hydrocarbons/PAHs, is not just found in cooked foods but also in coal- and tar-pits and in cigarette-smoke). Granted, significant fasting/intermittent fasting plus heating only a very little, plus eating only a little can all help, but it's by no means effective against PAHs, NSAs(nitrosamines), HCAs(heterocyclic amines) etc. etc.

The number of studies done on AGEs is so great that they are difficult to disprove right now(ie 1000s of them, according to pubmed etc.)

All that said, some of us have to compromise re eating cooked foods , occasionally, during social occasions etc.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline yuli

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2010, 04:34:31 am »
Tyler, Hannibal,
I agree with you about the harmful effects of cooked foods (I just love arguing even though I agree lol), I had no clue regarding AGEs when I started RAF, but I saw almost right away what WONDERS it did for my digestion! I think bacteria is very good, I love it, I seem to be leaving my meat in the fridge longer and longer these days  :P
I just still would love to have a formula though, how interesting would it be to know exactly how long to fast to get rid of the toxins from eating your occasional cooked food item, like a baked potato, or 1 cup of bone broth...would be great to know that!
...Anyways, I gotta run to my store before it closes and grab me some livers and steaks cause all this is made me hungry and all I had today was a handful of macadamias cause that all I had left  :'( ...




Offline Iguana

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2010, 03:00:06 pm »
Very interesting discussion. Sure, animals have ways to eliminate occasional amounts of toxins generated by heat, as can be sometimes found in food after volcanic eruptions or wildfires. But this ways (bacterial and virus illness) are likely to be adapted to small infrequent amounts; they runaway with regular daily intakes of cooked food and may end up being very uncomfortable, long lasting or even dangerous. This is understandable if we realize that a process able to deal smoothly with occasional restricted amounts has thus to deal with considerably larger amounts and that the kind of toxins being eliminated are simultaneously still being ingested in large quantities!
 >:
There’s also the fact that once we eat raw, our body generally begins to eliminate toxins previously accumulated. A small amount of heated food can thus either trigger this process to runaway, or else bring it to a halt.
 >D
Experiments on animals done in the 60’s by Burger and his friends showed that the duration of the detoxination process lasts about the same time than the intoxination process. So, if someone has eaten SAD for 30 years, he/she may detox for about 30 years also. But of course this is not linear, detox may be rather intense at the beginning but gets gradually very slight with time.
 8)
Also, decades of experience and observations showed that the best and easiest way to eat raw is to do it 100%. Eating cooked food once in a way makes the thing difficult, psychologically, physically and socially. People doing so tend to slowly slip back to full standard diet. I saw it around me as well with my sister, my former wife, a girlfriend and friends. It’s a bit like if one stops smoking: still smoking occasionally may lead the person to fall back into regular smoking. Grain, dairy and cooked food are addictive, just like tobacco and dope.
 -d
About the nuisance of air pollution compared to food pollution, wouldn’t it be interesting to open a specific thread? Of course, raw paleo diet does not deal with other environmental nuisances than those in food. I have something to tell about that!
 :)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline RawZi

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2010, 06:20:45 pm »
I've never owned or used a grain miller unfortunately.  I would be surprised if it was suitable for bone but it's worth a try.  What type do you have RawZi?  I would expect a high quality mill with stone grinding plates to be the most suitable.  I'm not sure if ceramic would be up to the task.  Could you test the idea on one of your existing grinders?  If it breaks then at least you'd never be tempted to use it for the production of neolithic foods!  :)

    My grain mills, I haven't used them in years.  They're not very big, and they're packed away, far away.  It is a good idea to break them, and never use them for grain.  That's not a problem in this house anyway, dh keeps buying bakery stuff and grocery shelf stuff made from complex ingredient lists including grain.  I really liked it better when I lived far from any store and made everything from scratch from what grew local.  I talked with a company yesterday, and they'll get back with me today.  Looks like I'll have a grain mill made for me, bigger than the ones I have, providing they won't heat the bones.  I may need the grain mills that are packed anyway, for a while.  Ds wants me to write a cooked menu for him.  The foods he chose didn't work the best, and when I chose those in the distant past, it supported health.  I don't know whether it will now though ... My grain mills are just attachments to kitchen appliances I have. Also I may try to use those grain mills on bones in the meantime till another is made, as my cat should probably have the bone meal NOW and not wait a couple weeks, so old and skinny, thin bones etc.
"Genuine truth angers people in general because they don't know what to do with the energy generated by a glimpse of reality." Greg W. Goodwin

Offline Michael

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2010, 07:06:04 pm »
It is a good idea to break them, and never use them for grain....I may try to use those grain mills on bones in the meantime till another is made, as my cat should probably have the bone meal NOW and not wait a couple weeks, so old and skinny, thin bones etc.

Yes, dig them out from the attic and give it a try RawZi.  I'm sure there are plenty of us here that would be interested in the results?!  If it works, then your cat will be very happy and your problem will be solved.  If it breaks, less temptation of grains for your husband (if you ever manage to move away from any stores!) :)  I realise from my own experiences how difficult it can be when our partners and family don't eat this way too.
How old is your son RawZi?  Does he suffer any specific health complications?  What kind of diet is he on now?

1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline Michael

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2010, 07:31:59 pm »
As for pollution, I will grant that a few areas are really bad re pollution(Mexico City, for example), but, here in London, a capital city in a Western industrialised nation, pollution really isn't a serious issue for me.

Are you sure about that Tyler?!!  You're in North London aren't you?  My experiences of living in London for a number of years are quite different.  I lived in Greenwich (considered by many as a 'green' part of London) and used to spend a significant amount of time in Central London.  I used to find the pollution a BIG problem!  I couldn't even walk from my house into Greenwich village without needing to wash the black soot from my face upon my return.  I would spend seemingly my entire time blowing thick black soot out of my nose and coughing it up.  My breathing and exercise potential was always significantly improved when staying away for periods in the countryside (which isn't great either with the serious pesticide issues!).  In my experience, London is colloquially known as the 'Big Smoke' with very good reason!  It may pale into insignificance when compared to Mexico City, LA etc but I certainly wouldn't say it's not a serious issue.  Other factors aside, the observational evidence is clear to see with the dominant grey pallor of most Londoners compared to the fresh, rosy-cheeked health seen in many countryside inhabitants.

Interesting discussion re: cooked food toxins etc.  Yuli, you bring a fresh perspective to the forum which is greatly appreciated.  Of course, I fully recognise and appreciate the dangers of heat-created toxins and their mid to long-term consequences to our health but I also tend to side with your argument.  Pollution in the air, water and food IS a major problem that we can do little more than intelligently minimise.  Of course, there are also a whole host of other environmental stresses (EMF and microwave radiation etc) which all impact on our body's ability to maintain homeostasis.  Our bodies are capable of cleansing and healing themselves when given the opportunity through intermittent fasting, regular fasting, predominately RPD diet etc.  I don't think a minimal amount of 'healthy' cooked food when considered in the context of an otherwise cleansing, health-building diet/lifestyle is going to cause significant harm.  In fact, I am open to the possibility that it may even - in some circumstances - offer some help despite the drawbacks eg bone broth offering minerals that a certain individual would potentially be otherwise lacking for whatever reason.

As important as it is to recognise, understand and appropriate for the dangers that now surround us in our complex modern world, it's also important not to lose sight of the big picture.
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

Offline RawZi

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2010, 08:19:23 pm »
... if you ever manage to move away from any stores!) :)  I realise from my own experiences how difficult it can be when our partners and family don't eat this way too.
How old is your son ... suffer any specific health complications?  What kind of diet is he on now?

    We've always had very different nutritional leanings.  Whether I eat this way or that way, he's more of a rebel than me, incredibly so.  Yeah, I know your wife wasn't even eating paleo before, let alone raw.  Very hard when you want to eat at home together as a family and teach children what you know to be healthy.

    He's way older than yours.  He has severe health problems.  He was (pure) vegan, he has been pure fruitarian, he's been a living fooder, he's been a junk food organic non fat vegan, for the past year and a half he was a high fat raw lacto-mella-fruitarian, last week he finally ate (raw fish) meat, then a piece of cooked yucca, now he's a raw salad cooked main-dish vegan, but considering trying (raw) eggs (will be first time).

    I have some of his history here http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/hot-topics/what-would-u-do-if-u-felt-u-needed-an-er-but-had-just-eaten-raw-meat/

    I'm hoping bone meal will be good for his teeth, and that he will try it.  Anyone familiar with tooth blotting?

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Offline Hannibal

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2010, 08:26:16 pm »
  I don't think a minimal amount of 'healthy' cooked food when considered in the context of an otherwise cleansing, health-building diet/lifestyle is going to cause significant harm.
That's true.
But when I eat even only a little of cooked food I fall out of my rhytm.
Do you blame vultures for the carcass they eat?
Livin' off the raw grass fat of the land

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2010, 09:14:48 pm »
Are you sure about that Tyler?!!  You're in North London aren't you?  My experiences of living in London for a number of years are quite different.  I lived in Greenwich (considered by many as a 'green' part of London) and used to spend a significant amount of time in Central London.  I used to find the pollution a BIG problem!  I couldn't even walk from my house into Greenwich village without needing to wash the black soot from my face upon my return.  I would spend seemingly my entire time blowing thick black soot out of my nose and coughing it up.  My breathing and exercise potential was always significantly improved when staying away for periods in the countryside (which isn't great either with the serious pesticide issues!).  In my experience, London is colloquially known as the 'Big Smoke' with very good reason!  It may pale into insignificance when compared to Mexico City, LA etc but I certainly wouldn't say it's not a serious issue.  Other factors aside, the observational evidence is clear to see with the dominant grey pallor of most Londoners compared to the fresh, rosy-cheeked health seen in many countryside inhabitants.

Interesting discussion re: cooked food toxins etc.  Yuli, you bring a fresh perspective to the forum which is greatly appreciated.  Of course, I fully recognise and appreciate the dangers of heat-created toxins and their mid to long-term consequences to our health but I also tend to side with your argument.  Pollution in the air, water and food IS a major problem that we can do little more than intelligently minimise.  Of course, there are also a whole host of other environmental stresses (EMF and microwave radiation etc) which all impact on our body's ability to maintain homeostasis.  Our bodies are capable of cleansing and healing themselves when given the opportunity through intermittent fasting, regular fasting, predominately RPD diet etc.  I don't think a minimal amount of 'healthy' cooked food when considered in the context of an otherwise cleansing, health-building diet/lifestyle is going to cause significant harm.  In fact, I am open to the possibility that it may even - in some circumstances - offer some help despite the drawbacks eg bone broth offering minerals that a certain individual would potentially be otherwise lacking for whatever reason.

As important as it is to recognise, understand and appropriate for the dangers that now surround us in our complex modern world, it's also important not to lose sight of the big picture.
  I live in Northwest London, and have trees all over the place on roads. The result is that I am not as affected as I would have been without any trees. I actually feel worse re pollution effects if I ever eat cooked foods - somehow the combination doesn`t work. Plus, every so often, I get the opportunity to visit unpolluted countryside, whereas if I was eating a little cooked food all the time, I would feel permanently weakened.

In short, find that eating any cooked foods on social occasions makes me feel so bad afterwards that I can never quit going raw. 
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline yuli

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2010, 03:08:36 am »
So, if someone has eaten SAD for 30 years, he/she may detox for about 30 years also. But of course this is not linear, detox may be rather intense at the beginning but gets gradually very slight with time.

Oh my, so if I started RAF at 27...that means I'll be 54 by the time I am fully detoxified waaah
It's a GOOD thing we don't have to be completely detoxified to enjoy the benefits of a raw animal diet and a healthy life in general, the benefits are enjoyed almost right away for most, and for the others after their initial hard detox stage (I never went through one like that but I think it can be up to 2 weeks....)

People doing so tend to slowly slip back to full standard diet. I saw it around me as well with my sister, my former wife, a girlfriend and friends. It’s a bit like if one stops smoking: still smoking occasionally may lead the person to fall back into regular smoking. Grain, dairy and cooked food are addictive, just like tobacco and dope.

I think it also depends on the individual, I don't think I'll ever go back to a nasty cooked diet. For example, a week or so ago I had no food left, I was doing renovations all day and hungry and tired...I thought ok, I'll just eat some lightly cooked buckwheat with goat butter (this was my FIRST time trying any grain after starting RAF), I ate a bowl, it was yummi because buckwheat is yummi, well, 5 minutes after eating it I had this weird too much fullness feeling, and then I threw up ALL the buckwheat into my garbage can LOL, the rejected buckwheat was incredibly acidic, it kinda felt like it burned me...so I don't think I can even eat grains anymore if I tried, needless to say I will have no more grain eating "experiments"...but it was interesting to see what would happen.

I think my only "weaknesses" left toward cooked food include: hot soup (hence why I made the bone broth egg drop)...coffee (I drink it rarely and always black)...and.....BEER (again thats not often), but naturally brewed beer doesn't seem to disagree with me like eating grains did....again, I think with time I'll cut out all these things slowly...I love being on RAF and while I am not doing it 100% (about 95% now), I have no doubt where I may slowly slip into 100% in the future.

I tried consuming both vodka and gin (not at the same time, ha ha) with some friends a while ago, and, ughhh, it gave me the WORST, violent headaches and muscle aches, I felt poisoned. Back when on SAD I used to be able to drink a ton of vodka....To me RAF is great because it doesn't LET me slip back into anything, how can I drink any liquor now? It makes me feel like I gonna die, lol....To me RAF is like a slow and steady journey towards wellbeing, this is why I love it. If I slip, it always lends me a hand to get back up  :)

I don't think a minimal amount of 'healthy' cooked food when considered in the context of an otherwise cleansing, health-building diet/lifestyle is going to cause significant harm.  In fact, I am open to the possibility that it may even - in some circumstances - offer some help despite the drawbacks eg bone broth offering minerals that a certain individual would potentially be otherwise lacking for whatever reason.

Exactly, minimal (and I am talking really MINIMAL) amounts do NOT cause me to slip back to a cooked food diet at all whatsoever. I am not afraid that I will slip back...but I wonder if with time I will not tolerate things at all as I become more detoxified....

Also when I do get taken to a restaurant, I have a extra-rare steak (as rare as they agree to make it for me  :P ), and that eaten alone or with a good beer does not cause any significant problems. When I go to a restaurant I want to eat there dammit!
I also live with a family who buy cheeses, cakes, cookies, fresh breads, grains, lots and lots of "cooked yummies"...so I always have those things around me...its amazing to look at a chocolate cake and not have the slightest inclination to taste any whatsoever, or to see my dad frying perogies and feel "ugh you're gonna put those inside yourself?".... thats how effective the RAF WOE is!



Offline Michael

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Re: Raw Bone Meal
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2010, 04:25:33 am »
That's true.
But when I eat even only a little of cooked food I fall out of my rhytm.

I think it also depends on the individual, I don't think I'll ever go back to a nasty cooked diet......minimal (and I am talking really MINIMAL) amounts do NOT cause me to slip back to a cooked food diet at all whatsoever. I am not afraid that I will slip back...but I wonder if with time I will not tolerate things at all as I become more detoxified....

Clearly, Yuli's right and it's an individual thing.  But, I can relate to what you say Hannibal.  I don't think it's ever knocked me out of my rhythm even in the early days.  I've always known since I starting eating RAF that this is the only way I want to eat.  Any diversion from it is temporary (usually due to social commitments) and normally leaves me feeling desperate to 'get back' to my diet!

Yuli, your suppositions are correct as ever.  It's certainly been my experience that even the slightest diversions are met with an increasing lack of tolerance as time goes on.  I do not experience such acute reactions as your vomiting but more a general feeling of worsened capability in all areas - digestion, energy, sleep, mood etc.  It would be nice to think that a body improving in health and vitality would be more capable of withstanding occasional stressors and I do believe this is the case.  But the practical reality, for me at least, has been that it rejects them with a heightened awareness of their unsuitability.

Quote
Also when I do get taken to a restaurant, I have a extra-rare steak (as rare as they agree to make it for me  :P ), and that eaten alone or with a good beer does not cause any significant problems. When I go to a restaurant I want to eat there dammit!

I do the same.  Whenever I eat out I try to arrange it so that it's somewhere I can eat bleu steak which I accompany with steamed greens or salad.

Quote
...its amazing to look at a chocolate cake and not have the slightest inclination to taste any whatsoever, or to see my dad frying perogies and feel "ugh you're gonna put those inside yourself?".... thats how effective the RAF WOE is!

That's been my experience also which, again, only increases as time goes on.

I actually feel worse re pollution effects if I ever eat cooked foods - somehow the combination doesn`t work. Plus, every so often, I get the opportunity to visit unpolluted countryside, whereas if I was eating a little cooked food all the time, I would feel permanently weakened.

Aha, that's a very interesting point Tyler.  I was vegetarian when I lived in London!  I wonder how different my experience would've been had I been eating RPD?  Significantly better I'm sure.  So, the conclusion is, perhaps, that - yes - pollution and such represent a significant danger to our health but, like many things, we're better able to tolerate it when eating our natural paleo diet.
1. When offered something that is too good to be true. It is.
2. Greed and fear are poor states of mind in which to make decisions; like shopping at the supermarket when you are hungry.
3. Exponential growth is mathematically unsustainable.

 

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