Author Topic: Kristelle's Journal  (Read 15398 times)

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Offline Kristelle

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Kristelle's Journal
« on: August 17, 2008, 10:45:53 pm »
Hi,

As some of you know, I've been mostly zero-carbing and eating all my food raw for about a year. I'm 32 yrs old, 5'7, weight about 150lbs.

At the moment, I'm cutting down on fat, realizing that what may still be causing me problems is the consumption of TOO MUCH fat. Hence, it should not be surprising that, right now, I have absolutely no craving for fat and eating even a little doesn't sit right with me. I think I've been eating SOOOO much fat for the last few weeks, or even months that my body kind of needs a rest from fat. As such, I plan to eat lean protein ONLY until I begin to crave fat.

I suspect that there is enough fat already circulating in my body such that I don't need dietary fat at the moment. That probably explains why I'm somewhat overweight, probably around 10-15lbs. Once the extra bodyfat is used up and I reach my desirable weight, I will probably begin craving fats. Until then, there is plenty inside of me!

 

Offline Daryl

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2008, 02:24:18 am »
Looking forward to your thoughts on diet and nutrition, Kristelle :)

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2008, 10:21:41 am »
Barely hungry today, ate mostly protein about 50 grams. I seem to be doing very well without much food and at the moment, without any fat. I think I have enough bodyfat at the moment to last me at least another 24-48 hrs before I really start to crave fat or who knows...maybe longer!


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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 02:14:04 pm »
I find I can't eat nearly as much as people who don't eat a lot of fat. It's the best thing in the world for me as I used to pound away the food constantly before raw paleo.

Craig

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2008, 08:10:56 am »
In the last couple of days, I've started to cook my meat a little, still pretty raw inside but a little warm. Cooked my fat as well, have alot of beef fat.

First, I find the taste of fat MUCH better and can eat much more this way. It is truly yummy!

Second, I find the taste of slightly cooked meat only slightly better. The only meat I prefer raw is liver (and seafood).

Third, I find my digestion has improved and energy levels as well. I feel better eating this way, SURPRISINGLY!

Fourth, I find that eating raw fish (or shellfish) does not upset my stomach and get me tired.

Hence, slightly cooked meat (whether grass-fed, organic or not, muscle or organ meats) sits the best with me, it seems whereas seafood eaten raw is actually tastier and more easily digested.

I suspect it has to do with the fact that perhaps our Paleolithic ancestors ate their meat fresh, directly after a kill, where the meat and fat would be pretty warm (similar to slightly cooked meat and fat) and that seafood was usually colder when eaten directly after a kill.

I'm actually stunned but for now, will continue eating this way and see where this leads. 

Offline boxcarguy07

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2008, 08:23:25 am »
Interesting, Kristelle!

Thought something was funny, though...

Quote
the fact that perhaps


this is quite an oxymoron of sorts!  :D

Satya

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2008, 08:43:01 am »
I've been meaning to thank you for journaling, especially after your great posts on Lex's journal.  I know you have had digestion problems for some time.  If it is improving, that's great.  Keep us posted on this experiment.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2008, 06:34:37 am »
Hence, slightly cooked meat (whether grass-fed, organic or not, muscle or organ meats) sits the best with me, it seems whereas seafood eaten raw is actually tastier and more easily digested.

I suspect it has to do with the fact that perhaps our Paleolithic ancestors ate their meat fresh, directly after a kill, where the meat and fat would be pretty warm (similar to slightly cooked meat and fat) and that seafood was usually colder when eaten directly after a kill.

Kristelle,
I prefer my meat warm also.  I store my food in the refrigerator, but set it in a warm place several hours before eating.  I love the fat soft and chewy.  Often when I have a full schedule I'll take my food with me for the day and leave it in the car.  By the time I get to it, maybe 8 to 10 hours later, it is not only warm but usually fermenting and the taste has a little bite to it.

One idea that comes to mind is that there would have been no refrigeration in paleo times, hence immediate as well as later meals would have been warm (not to mention a bit ripe) - especially in summer.  I also suspect that this is why we seem to do so well with "High" meat.  We are well adapted to it. 

Lex

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2008, 10:51:05 am »
Well guys...I'm doing amazing...plenty of energy, feeling positive about life and really looking forward to my meals.


Offline boxcarguy07

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2008, 12:17:33 pm »
Good to hear, Kristelle!
Glad things are working out well!

xylothrill

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2008, 02:59:06 pm »
Well guys...I'm doing amazing...plenty of energy, feeling positive about life and really looking forward to my meals.



Do you experience the same effect with your digestion when you just warm your food as you do when slightly cooking it?
I like mine warm too but it wasn't always summer in Paleo times (outside of the tropics) and I'm sure a fresh kill couldn't have stayed warm for long in freezing temps. So, for those of us whose ancestors are from cold climates, our digestive systems should be able to handle food that is cold.

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2008, 07:48:54 pm »
Warming my food doesn't do anything. For some reason, I just do better with slightly cooked meat and fat.

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 06:46:06 am »
Ok well...I just realized where I went wrong all this time and I've been zero-carbing mostly for about 1 year now. I was eating too much fat! I had mentioned that earlier in my journal but did not give it enough time. Now, it's crystal clear.

Since reducing my fat intake to about 60-65% (and that seems to be even a little too much right now), I feel like a new person. In other words, I feel amazing. My problems had nothing to do with cooking, nothing at all and my theory was wrong. I'm still struggling a little with abdominal cramps, some bloating but overall, I can't complain. If the indigestion persists in the following days, I plan to reduce fat intake even further.

Interestingly, my ketones have reduced. And thinking back, when protein was higher and fat lower, my weight was less. The more fat I ate, the heavier I became. No doubt about this. That's strange considering protein supposedly converts to glucose to a greater extent than fat because if that were the case, shouldn't I be gaining weight on more protein instead?? I personally don't believe in protein gluconeogenesis, doesn't hold up in my own experience and Charles, from http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/index.php had some interesting things to say about this today...

"Francis Benedict's study from 1915 was on a subject who fasted for 31 days. This study remains the most complete of all balance studies in spite of many inadequate analytical methods. He demonstrated that for the first 5 or 6 days of fasting, a small component to the fuel of respiration was provided by carbohydrate and then none at all. After that, it was all about fat and protein. Fat contributed 85% and protein 10%. Benedict remarked that fat was the most abundant and and possibly expendable.

Many problems were unexplained and the general belief in gluconeogenesis was directly under fire. The brain supposedly requires 120-130 grams of glucose daily, although the IOM report that Taubes cited says that really only 100 grams are required. The extra 30 was set as a precaution. Everyone agrees that ketones can provide 75 grams, but they dispute is over the last 25 grams.

Total carbohydrate stores are barely adequate for 1 day's supply for cerebral function and gluconeogenesis must provide this amount. However, data shows that gluconeogenesis falls far short. Nitrogen (protein) excretion in several days decreases to 10 grams per day and in more prolonged fasting, it decreases to levels approaching 3 grams per day.

We all know of people who have fasted considerable longer than 7 days.

This renders impossible rendering more than several grams of glucose even if all amino acids were glucose producing.

The body doesn't use up the limited supply of protein it has making glucose for those tissues that need it which means that the brain has to be using something else. The 100 grams of glucose requirement is more a belief than it is science since it obviously has not been shown in rigorous testing.

Let's put this gluconeogensis from too much protein idea to rest. If you are gaining weight on your zero-carb diet, it has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of protein you're eating. Protein conversion is too expensive and can be toxic since that results in more nitrogen which would build ammonia in the blood and kill you. I was under the impression that the muscles didn't use ketones but indeed they do. They use more than what reserchers thought.

The next problem that is equally frustrating to researchers is the very one that MAC and I were discussing just the other day. What is the signal that mobilizes just the quantity of free fatty acid needed by the liver and carcass from fat tissue and likewise, what is the signal to muscle which directs mobilization of muscle protein as amino acid into the blood to be removed by liver (and kidney) during gluconoeogenesis? In other words, when the liver "goes after the muscles" to get protein, what gets rid of the nitrogen that's left over?

There are two schools of thought. The first is that insulin (its level) is the primary mediator (not surprising) and some think it is something in the brain which signals the release of peripheral fuel using neural pathways via the central nervous system. This means that the only time that the body would convert protein for energy would be if there were no fat or ketones available, so one would have to be fasting for more than nine months before this would occur. Again, the Bear is very astute.

The researchers tend to equate fasting and diabetes because in one case, insulin is low. In the other case, insulin is not effective due to the high level. This makes a huge difference to me, but the researchers seem to think they are somehow equivalent. The Bear also noted that these two cases were in no way similar.

Taubes provided David Kipnis's studies showing how fat tissue is exquisitely sensitive to insulin and we know that insulin fascilitates release of free fatty acids in response to the changing levels. The Randle cycle, which describes the glucose-fatty acid metabolism informs us how insulin levels effect the release of free fatty acids. This is well-known to all of us zero-carbers because we have no dietary glucose (or very little) and our fatty acids are not inhibited from circulating by insulin. Yet we all know that if we provide a glucose load, the fatty acids will decrease in circulation and the majority of the glucose will be stored.

Another note I found interesting, was that Benedict determined that if a man has enough fatty acids at the start, he may survive a fasting period of 6 to 9 months and probably even longer. At the end of 30 days of fasting, fat provides 90 percent of calories and protein only provides 10%. On an 8 day fast, fat provides 86% and protein provides 14%. On a 40-day fast, fat provides 95-97% and protein only provides 3%. The subjects on the 40-day fast were all obese.

For a man to survive a fast, protein conservation is critical, particularly in a primeval setting where maintaining muscle mass would be necessary. This is why we zero-carbers don't have to live in the gym. If we go once or twice per week, we are not in danger of losing our muscle mass. One-third to one-half loss of total body nitrogen is barely compatible with survival. This is the same for all the animals in the kingdom.

This leaves open the question as to what fuel supplies the gluconogenic precursor to provide the brain its necessary fuel. The probable answer is that the brain gradually decreases its utilization of glucose and uses ketones and hydroxybutyrate to become the most important fuels.

In conclusion, the question of how much the brain needs really depends on the state of the body at the time and the availability of peripheral fuels just as it does with regard to weight management. Insulin is the primary regulator of most of these processes so when contemplating your zero-carb regimen, it's important and prudent to focus on insulin first. If you do this, you will enjoy great health regardless of weight loss."






Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2008, 05:12:46 am »
I am feeling amazing today!!! YAY! Finally. Zero-carb CAN work and DOES work!

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2008, 06:26:48 am »
Ok well...I just realized where I went wrong all this time and I've been zero-carbing mostly for about 1 year now. I was eating too much fat! .......

......Since reducing my fat intake to about 60-65% (and that seems to be even a little too much right now), I feel like a new person. In other words, I feel amazing.

Interestingly, my ketones have reduced. And thinking back, when protein was higher and fat lower, my weight was less. The more fat I ate, the heavier I became. No doubt about this. That's strange considering protein supposedly converts to glucose to a greater extent than fat because if that were the case, shouldn't I be gaining weight on more protein instead??

Very interesting Kristelle.  Your experience is the same as mine.  I did feel consistently better at the 65% fat level.  I also had to cut my food consumption down significantly or I gained weight.  If you will remember, it was not uncommon for me to eat 2 lbs of food per day at 65% fat.  With my current experiment at 80+% fat I'm only eating 600g or less to maintain the same weight - and even then, trying to get that much high fat food down is a struggle.

What I started out to prove or disprove was Taubes contention that if no carbs were in the diet, then you could not gain weight.  This is clearly not the case as both you and I have demonstrated.  We have shown that all else being equal, more fat, more weight gain.  I also must temper this a bit by stating that the amount of weight gain from eating excess fat is far less than when consuming the same amount of calories as carbs, but a high fat low protein diet will cause weight gain.

I'm not sure that I go along with your ideas on GNG.  My direct experience clearly demonstrates that the larger the ratio of protein I eat in a meal, the higher my blood glucose rises after the meal - the glucose has to be coming from somewhere.  You seem to base your conclusions on the fact that when you eat a higher ratio of protein you loose weight, yet if the GNG theory were correct, the higher glucose levels from GNG should cause weight gain.  Maybe it is this basic assumption that is in error.

My experience does confirm that BG rises more after a high protein meal which to me supports the idea that GNG does occur, but my experience also shows that with a very high fat intake of 80% or more, where BG doesn't rise nearly as high as when I my fat intake is 65% or so, I gain weight.  This makes me question the basic assumption that it is only excess BG that causes the body to store fat.  If this assumption is not true, (and both our experiences seem to support that it is not true), then it's back to the drawing board, for all the rest of your conclusions are based on this one assumption being true.

Bottom line is, we've demonstrated Taubes basic assertion - no dietary carbs - no fat storage, to be untrue.  This throws suspicion on the underlying assumption that it is only excess BG that causes fat storage and/or that fat is only stored when insulin is high.  This is one reason that the experiment that I proposed with Elli, to eat only fat for a couple of meals and measure BG, Ketones and whatever else I could, is so interesting to me.

Hmmm, another thought just occurred to me.  Taubes actually stated that it was Alpha Glycerol Phosphate (AGP) that allowed the creation of triglycerides which is the way that the body mobilizes fat to move it into and out of storage.  He stated that a primary source of AGP was through the metabolism of BG in the presence of insulin and therefore reasoned that no carbs = low BG = low insulin = low ability to store fat.

But another thing we know is that the AGP molecule is the hub around which a triglyceride molecule is formed and therefore when we release body fat it is in the form of triglycerides.  Once the fatty acids are released from the triglyceride molecule the AGP is again available to pick up more fatty acids and create a new triglyceride.  Now if our body is using the fatty acids as fuel then the AGP probably won't find free fatty acids so when it makes it to the liver it will be converted to glucose.

But what about the dietary fat we eat.  Is it in the form of triglycerides?  and if it is, then doesn't the dietary fat itself provide its own AGP to create the necessary conditions for storage as body fat without the need for carbs, glucose, or insulin?  This idea seems to explain my observations, and would also validate Taubes theory because Taubes only stated that the storage of body fat needed AGP.  If the necessary AGP is part of the dietary fat itself, then this may allow fat to be stored as well.  This does not disprove the theory that excess glucose in the presence of insulin will create AGP causing fat storage, only that this is not the only source for AGP.

Lex
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 06:39:09 am by lex_rooker »

Satya

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2008, 10:20:11 pm »
I'm not sure that I go along with your ideas on GNG.  My direct experience clearly demonstrates that the larger the ratio of protein I eat in a meal, the higher my blood glucose rises after the meal - the glucose has to be coming from somewhere.  You seem to base your conclusions on the fact that when you eat a higher ratio of protein you loose weight, yet if the GNG theory were correct, the higher glucose levels from GNG should cause weight gain.  Maybe it is this basic assumption that is in error.

My experience does confirm that BG rises more after a high protein meal which to me supports the idea that GNG does occur, but my experience also shows that with a very high fat intake of 80% or more, where BG doesn't rise nearly as high as when I my fat intake is 65% or so, I gain weight.  This makes me question the basic assumption that it is only excess BG that causes the body to store fat.  If this assumption is not true, (and both our experiences seem to support that it is not true), then it's back to the drawing board, for all the rest of your conclusions are based on this one assumption being true.

Great dialogue, Kristelle and Lex.  Protein is thermogenic, can raise metabolic rate and induce a glucagon response.  So perhaps the BG rise, with the higher protein percentage that Lex's experience yielded, is mitigated by this thermogenic effect?  I dunno, just throwing it out there.

Keep up the good work Kristelle.  I could greatly benefit from knowing your food intakes, if and when you feel inclined to post that.  I have gone very low carb recently, reducing plant foods to condiment-like status.  I still have some flab to burn, so anything that is working for you, I'd like to know about.  Especially because you are raw, cuz cooked low carb has been written about extensively.  But RAFers are often saying "high fat".  Cooked, some of the fat gets cooked away, raw it doesn't.  So perhaps I should not be so concerned about fat.  I mean, I realize I need a high amount of fat low carb, but I DO NOT want to gain weight over the whole thing!  So please consider sharing your food choices and amounts.  A woman's  perspective is rare around here, ya know?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 10:32:55 pm by Satya »

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2008, 12:08:36 am »
At the moment, I'm barely eating any fat, very extra-lean veal. And I feel better everyday. The last two nights, I have been sleeping so well and just a few hours ago, had the dream of my LIFE! I was so happy, so at peace and woke up feeling incredible but also sad because it was only a dream.

I can't say I've totally recovered but the bloating is gone, the aches are gone. Ketones are trace. Weight remains the same. There are moments of intense energy, other of intense calm and peace of mind like this morning. I've only had one or two hives in the last week or so. Skin is softer but still dry a little. Hair is healthier, it seems.

Satya

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2008, 02:06:13 am »
Thanks for the information, Kristelle.  So you are not eating plants at all now?  No red peppers?  I hope things continue improving for you.

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2008, 02:24:45 am »
Have been eating only meat for the last 6 weeks and before that, on and off, on just meat.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2008, 03:33:49 am »
At the moment, I'm barely eating any fat, very extra-lean veal. And I feel better everyday. ....

A very low fat, high protein diet may give you some problems further down the road, especially if you don't eat many carbs, so be prepared.  You may need to add either some carbs or a little fat back into your diet to maintain your new found "rosey glow"!  My own experience is that I do best when fat is above 50% of calories but well below 80% of calories.  I'd say that the 60% to 70% range seems best for me.

I can't say I've totally recovered but the bloating is gone, the aches are gone. Ketones are trace. Weight remains the same. There are moments of intense energy, other of intense calm and peace of mind like this morning. I've only had one or two hives in the last week or so. Skin is softer but still dry a little. Hair is healthier, it seems.

Bloating is something that responds quickly - usually within a couple of days - as it seems dependent on the food eaten and fermentation in the intestines and colon.  Skin and hair on the other hand, can take weeks or months to see major improvement as the external portions of these are actually dead cells and it takes time for them to be repaced from the bottom up.  Rashes and hives are a mixed bag.  Some things seem to respond quickly and others take some time.  Another long term item to pay attention to is your finger nails.  Over time these should become stronger and crack and chip less. Again, the visible portion is not living tissue and it takes time for the nail to grow out and replace the older weak material.

Lex

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2008, 09:08:25 am »
I know about rabbit starvation but also realize that my body will clearly let me know when it is time to eat more fat...I will begin to crave carbs or fat...at that time, I will increase my fat. In other words, I will let my body guide me. I'm just barely beginning to actually have those cravings...I'll keep you all updated and thanks Lex for your advice and feedback. I look forward to your fat experiment.  :)


Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2008, 11:14:20 pm »
Interestingly, I recently switched my hormones such that my hormones aren't being processed by my liver as much and improvement is even greater.

I now believe part of the problem was HOW my hormones were being handled by the body and HOW MUCH fat I was eating. It is unnatural for much of sexual hormones to go through the liver. In nature, hormones arrive into the blood first where they are distributed across the body before eventually ending up in the liver. When estrogen especially circulates through the liver, many functions are affected like clotting, renin, angiotensinogen, enzymes, proteins, lipoproteins, bile/cholesterol, etc.

My digestion is much improved as is my skin.

At the moment, I'm taking hormones vaginally. I will be seeing my doctor tomorrow. I might switch to transdermal.


 

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2008, 12:18:51 am »
I'm now on estrogen patches. I've been eating more fat lately but doing ok. And my ketones are still close to negative.

Offline lex_rooker

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2008, 11:51:00 pm »
Interestingly, I recently switched my hormones such that my hormones aren't being processed by my liver as much and improvement is even greater.

This is really amazing.  I'd love to add this information to my journal.  It would be fascinating to see how diet and lifestyle changes the way my body processes testosterone etc.  Can you tell me what tests you are using to measure the amount of hormones processed by the liver vs the amount processed via other systems and tissues in the body?

Lex

Offline Kristelle

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Re: Kristelle's Journal
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2008, 02:07:28 am »
I don't have any way of measuring how much estrogen/progesterone is processed by my liver but it is a well-known fact that route of administration greatly influences this. Oral being the worst and parenteral being the best.

Unfortunetaly, symptoms returned upon restarting estrogen patches despite the very low amount of estrogen going through the liver. After this and my many experiences since hysterectomy, I can say, most definetly, that I feel best when not taking any hormones. Even a tiny amount bothers me.

I worry about the consequences of too little estrogen in my body (i.e. osteoporosis, accelerated ageing, cognitive/brain health) and often will restart hormone therapy for that reason. So, I never give my body enough time to heal from a possibly unbalanced gut/vaginal flora.

All my problems really started about 10 days after my operation. I had just stopped using antibiotics and had gotten a yeast infection. The infection was treated with over-the-counter cream and cured a few days later. During this whole time, I was taking estrogen as directed by my doctor to replace my lost hormones (ovaries removed).

The first things I noticed were a runny nose, especially during eating and dry patches of skin on my face. Next, I noticed the skin on my face would swell up in certain areas, get inflamed, itchy, and hives (which I initially thought was acne) began to appear. They were tiny pimples (with pus inside) and they were all over my face and even some on the neck, upper chest, abdomen and thighs. Mentally, I wasn't very stable either. I was anxious and had a few panic attacks. Later, I noticed joint pain (like tension in my joints), tingly sensations in body extremities, and some stiffness. I would also sweat alot for no reason. I lost about 10 pounds during this time and it seemed no matter what I ate or how much, I remained quite thin. I would barely go pee and alcohol did not do anything to me. I could drink a whole pitcher of beer and not be affected. Everything I ate or drink appeared to pass right through me. Maybe something in my gut was eating and drinking most of it...

Almost 3 years later, my situation is much improved but with still a few symptoms here and there that don't seem to stop but do improve when I completely stop estrogen. For example, when I take estrogen, I often get dizzy and experience a drunken feeling after eating any fatty substance, even the tiniest amount. Protein does nothing. If I happen to eat carbs, they also have that effect at first but if eaten continuosly for 3-4 days, I stop experiencing that feeling altogether to either carbs of fatty things. Weird, huh?
One theory is that fat destroys candida cells or possibly certain bacteria which in the process produce alcohol, ethanol giving me that feeling so often associated with excess alcohol ingestion. Later, estrogen promotes the proliferation of the very cells that have been destroyed and so the cycle continues.

I know estrogen affects gut/vaginal flora and as such, it could be possible that taking estrogen after antibiotic cessation could have kept away some of the beneficial bacteria/fungi or maintained some of unbeneficial ones such that my flora never got a chance to recuperate. If that is the case, then I only need to stay off hormones for a long enough time in order for my body to heal (3 months?). Then, I could possibly restart hormones with none of the symptoms I'm currently experiencing.     

Time will tell...

 

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