Author Topic: Danger of Raw Food Products Made from Raw Milk (Yogurt, Cheese, and Butter)  (Read 37500 times)

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Offline Josh

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There's something about diet that makes people appear as fanatics.

I think an element of it is that people want to believe in what they're eating. They're committed to health to take on a diet like raw paleo, or vegan or another difficult diet.

So there's part of them that doesn't want to allow the possibility that it's not perfect...because they want to believe that they're definitely doing the best thing for their health.

I agree it's much better to talk from your own experience, and think that it's good to accept that we may not have all the answers.

Offline monkeysee

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First Post.

I've been drinking a half-gal of raw, whole, grassfed cow's milk daily for a year, after considering myself "lactose intolerant" for decades.
Many surprising, unexpected health improvements coincided with this period.  MANY.
My condolences for those who can't manage the raw dairy. 

Monk

Offline p0wer

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Dairy is a hormone cocktail. It dramatically increases intake of estrogens for example, about 60-80% of dietary estrogens come from dairy on average. Estrogen is something you definitely don't want to have in excess.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf061972e

Offline PaleoPhil

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Welcome, Monk. If you become a frequent poster here I prophesy that there will be rows between you and Tyler.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline raw-al

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Dairy is a hormone cocktail. It dramatically increases intake of estrogens for example, about 60-80% of dietary estrogens come from dairy on average. Estrogen is something you definitely don't want to have in excess.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf061972e

In your opinion....
Cheers
Al

Offline raw-al

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Dairy is a hormone cocktail. It dramatically increases intake of estrogens for example, about 60-80% of dietary estrogens come from dairy on average. Estrogen is something you definitely don't want to have in excess.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf061972e

Meat is also a hormone cocktail.
Cheers
Al

Offline raw-al

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There's something about diet that makes people appear as fanatics.

I think an element of it is that people want to believe in what they're eating. They're committed to health to take on a diet like raw paleo, or vegan or another difficult diet.

So there's part of them that doesn't want to allow the possibility that it's not perfect...because they want to believe that they're definitely doing the best thing for their health.

I agree it's much better to talk from your own experience, and think that it's good to accept that we may not have all the answers.
Very well said. That in a nutshell speaks volumes about some of the stuff which is trotted out. Many diets work, some are better than others, for various reasons including the individuals physiology, psychology, immune system, available foods, employment, environment, climate and ethereal things such as the love involved in the preparation and even the state of mind of the food grower (farmer)
Cheers
Al

Offline raw-al

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First Post.

I've been drinking a half-gal of raw, whole, grassfed cow's milk daily for a year, after considering myself "lactose intolerant" for decades.
Many surprising, unexpected health improvements coincided with this period.  MANY.
My condolences for those who can't manage the raw dairy. 

Monk
Wow! Dats a lotta cow juice!

What else do you eat regularly?

I was LI also with pasteurized milk but with raw I have no problems. I consume roughly 12 litres in 14 days.
Cheers
Al

Offline p0wer

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Meat is also a hormone cocktail.

Not nearly as much as milk (or find a study that shows otherwise).

Offline raw-al

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Not nearly as much as milk (or find a study that shows otherwise).
Foods contain a wide variety of substances that are known about at this time or will be discovered in the future. The individual components of food only tell a small part of the story. This is the reductionist theory of the world which is based on the current system of drugs which is essentially a handy way of selling things to the public under the guys of "scientifically studied" with such terms as DIN or "Drug Identification Number", a clever system which allows drug companies to patent their concoctions.

This system is dangerous, barbaric and designed strictly for the purpose of making money as the concoctions typically don't cure anything or do horrendous side damage. (side effects) Even the side effects are good for business as they require more meds. Their efficacy is measured in surprisingly low percentages as part of the certification process. The process is designed by scientists to make money and protect their "products" while keeping other systems locked out by their refusal to allow products that contain a multiplicity of active ingredients to be certified despite having thousands of years of practical knowledge and experience as "proof".

The vast amounts of money generated by this reductionist theory is useful in lobbying of government agencies to allow the reductionist products and no other.
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Al

Offline raw-al

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Not nearly as much as milk (or find a study that shows otherwise).
Can you show me a study that shows that the elevated levels of hormones in raw milk is bad news? (in comparison to that in raw meat)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 02:07:01 am by raw-al »
Cheers
Al

Offline p0wer

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So we know that higher estrogen levels for example are strongly linked to some cancers, and we know that milk is particularly high in estrogens. Should we ignore these facts?

Offline raw-al

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So we know that higher estrogen levels for example are strongly linked to some cancers, and we know that milk is particularly high in estrogens. Should we ignore these facts?
Only if you have proof via other studies that show cancers cropping up in people that consume raw milk.

You see the problem with your proposition is that you are assuming the individual components of a food do not interact with other components in a synergistic or antagonistic way. This is reductionistic thinking pure and simple.

The world abounds with foods that contain individual components that by themselves would be dangerous but when in concert with other components are like a symphony.

Your conclusions jump from a to b which is typical of the other "scientific" theories that have been touted to get people to only go out in the sun when slathered in sunscreen, eggs are dangerous, chow down on tofu or other soybean derivatives, and any number of other wild eyed ideas that made sense to the newspaper reporter at the time.

Where are the studies showing a link? Or is that another make work project for some more researchers?
Cheers
Al

Offline blimpie

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Welcome, Monk. If you become a frequent poster here I prophesy that there will be rows between you and Tyler.

Indeed Phil. If he doesn't get banned first. On this forum, claiming to drink so much raw milk and experience benefits of all things is the worst kind of blasphemy possible, with the risk of losing membership and being shunned by the community. Good luck to you Monk.
Some people would say I'm full of hot air.

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Offline p0wer

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The world abounds with foods that contain individual components that by themselves would be dangerous but when in concert with other components are like a symphony.

Sure, but in which foods does that symphony work well for us? Obviously not in cooked food, grains, etc. Why shouldn't we question dairy as well? It significantly changes the hormonal balance in the body after all.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19496976

Quote
RESULTS:

After the intake of cow milk, serum estrone (E1) and progesterone concentrations significantly increased, and serum luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone and testosterone significantly decreased in men. Urine concentrations of E1, estradiol, estriol and pregnanediol significantly increased in all adults and children. In four out of five women, ovulation occurred during the milk intake, and the timing of ovulation was similar among the three menstrual cycles.

Offline raw-al

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Sure, but in which foods does that symphony work well for us? Obviously not in cooked food, grains, etc. Why shouldn't we question dairy as well? It significantly changes the hormonal balance in the body after all.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19496976

Still it is reductionist thinking. The study was based on 18 people. "Subjects were seven men, six prepubertal children, and five women". Were they thin, fat, tall, short, healthy, sick, lazy, athletic, SAD eaters, health food junkies, TV addicts, drug addicts, smokers, vegetarian, fruitarian, etc.

Was the study done by someone who had a dollar to be made off of selling something.

The milk used was specifically obtained from pregnant cows

There is the famous case of Nestles the giant junkfood company in the US that put on a big advertising campaign in Africa a number of years ago trying to convince the African women that their baby formula milk was much healthier than Mother's milk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9_boycott

And to answer your question we should all question everything we eat, but not because of the "latest scientific research". If you believe a food is problematic give it up for a wek or a month and see what happens.

Dairy is problematic for a certain portion of the population as is probably every food known to man.

I cannot eat garlic or onions or hot spicy foods. However some people love it and thrive on it. So instead of wasting money on a big research project, I simply don't eat it.
Cheers
Al

Offline TylerDurden

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Indeed Phil. If he doesn't get banned first. On this forum, claiming to drink so much raw milk and experience benefits of all things is the worst kind of blasphemy possible, with the risk of losing membership and being shunned by the community. Good luck to you Monk.
Rubbish. Despite the pro-raw dairy fanatics often being far too overly fanatical on the subject, they have been allowed a lot of leeway. Currently, the forum has no problem with people merely stating that raw dairy works well for their own bodies. What annoys people here, though, is that the pro-raw-dairy faction often such as trying to pretend that raw dairy can be consumed without any problems by the vast majority of the population despite  evidence to the contrary, scientific and anecdotal. Like I said before, one of the main reasons is that there is a pro-raw-dairy lobby in the US(the country with the biggest proportion of raw food dieters) which is somewhat cult-like in behaviour due to government crackdowns on raw dairy. Also, given that pro-raw-dairy fanatics on other forums have tried to suppress any anti-raw-dairy comments people here naturally tend to react against similiar attempts by pro-raw dairy cultists on this forum.
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Offline Iguana

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Yes, and by the way the name of this forum is Raw Paleo Forum.

Animal milk was not consumed by humans in the paleolithic era (and even neither in South East Asia and Africa until very recently). Wild animals don't drink milk from other animal species and not even milk from their own specie when adults. Thus I fail to see what all these biased pro dairy arguments are doing here.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Yes, and by the way the name of this forum is Raw Paleo Forum.

Animal milk was not consumed by humans in the paleolithic era (and even neither in South East Asia and Africa until very recently). Wild animals don't drink milk from other animal species and not even milk from their own specie when adults. Thus I fail to see what all these biased pro dairy arguments are doing here.
Well, to be fair, there are 2 sub-forums within rawpaleoforum devoted to raw dairy among other raw aspects. We accept that there are some who do fine on raw dairy, we just don't accept that it is somehow illegal to caution against raw dairy, given that so many people develop problems with it.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Yes, and by the way the name of this forum is Raw Paleo Forum.
Sure and I haven't seen anyone here claim that milk is thoroughly Paleo. You're not saying that Tyler doesn't go overboard re: dairy are you? I don't think Tyler will ban the fellow. I just think there will probably be rows, and it looks like my prophecy is already coming true. ;D I have run into dairy fanatics--or more accurately, they ran over me ;)--so I can understand Tyler's impatience with dairy advocates, but I think witnessing Tyler's overreactions helps dissuade me from doing the same.

Also, it occurs to me that if the case against dairy is so clear-cut, then we should be able to easily handle any pro-dairy arguments here and it shouldn't be necessary to ban them, not that anyone was planning on doing so, of course.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 07:39:41 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Ok guys !
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline raw-al

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Yes, and by the way the name of this forum is Raw Paleo Forum.

Animal milk was not consumed by humans in the paleolithic era (and even neither in South East Asia and Africa until very recently). Wild animals don't drink milk from other animal species and not even milk from their own specie when adults. Thus I fail to see what all these biased pro dairy arguments are doing here.
Paleos had neither grocery stores, farms, refrigerators, couriers and all the scientific hoodoo that gets bandied about here, so that's hardly been an issue in the past here.
Cheers
Al

Offline TylerDurden

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Actually, many Palaeos did have access to refrigeration as they were in an Ice Age and could routinely store their foods in the ice to freeze them.As for grocery stores, that is merely a question of convenience as,otherwise, we would have to spend most of our time hunting and gathering. Raw dairy is a whole different category, as it wasn't available in palaeo times in any real extent.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline monkeysee

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Welcome, Monk. If you become a frequent poster here I prophesy that there will be rows between you and Tyler.

Thanks for the welcome. 
I noticed that Tyler also has posts promoting appearances by Aajonus, so he can't be that adamant against against "milkers".


Offline monkeysee

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In that first year, it's hard to say what else I ate regularly, but raw milk was the volumetric bulk of my diet.  It was also the caloric bulk, as I was not eating a lot, although I didn't count calories.  I was originally planning to drink a gallon a day, but I just wasn't that hungry.
  I sometimes had home-cooked eggs and bacon for breakfast, and for dinner I had some variety of home cooked rice, cooked meat and uncooked, very sour kimchi meal at dinner.  I also sometimes had fresh fruit such as apples, blueberries, ripe (brown) bananas, peaches, etc., but not a lot.  Pretty much the same breakfast and dinner as I had before I started on the milk, but dinner was in smaller portions, and my mid-day meals and junk snacks were eliminated.  Sometimes I had freshly made pizza for lunch, but I haven't done that in while.  I haven't had bacon or pizza in many months.
  In general I was trying to cut out anything not prepared at home, and much anything not raw, and exerted control over all ingredients - everything had to be as close to pre-industrial as possible (organic, pastured, etc.).  The milk reduced my appetite for cooked meals even at home, and gradually my breakfast became raw milk cheese and apples, and/or raw pastured eggs, but sometimes I had a cooked omelet.  Sometimes my wife would buy junk like potato chips, gelato, or a slice of chocolate cake from a gourmet who sells items at farmers markets; I would eat some of that, in part so she wouldn't eat all of it herself (the sacrifices I had to make), but I asked her not to get that stuff any more and she buys it less and less often (or successfully hides it from me).
  I generally crave something to chew on during the day at work or I end up buying chips or similar junk; raw cheese and apples meet that need; raw eggs don't.  I may try eating raw meat at work - my diet is now in evolution towards eating raw meat, but I don't have any plans to eliminate the milk.

  One reason I tried and stuck with the raw milk program was that it really helped my digestion.  I also no longer felt exhausted without taking vitamins, so I was able to stop taking vitamins (I took Vitamin D boosts, 5000-10000 IU, maybe three times during the first three months, but nothing after that).  Many other benefits followed, pretty shocking really, which is what gave credibility in my mind to the claims Aajonus makes for raw dairy and meat. 

  For the last month, my dinner has been a quarter to half pound of grassfed beef for dinner; it's pre-frozen steak, to make it easier to cut.  My wife chops it up and mixes it with fresh crushed garlic, some high quality sesame oil, sesame seeds, fresh ground black pepper, salt (I asked her to stop when I found out), and a small amount of sugar (rapadura, but I asked her to replace it with unheated honey or nothing at all), which she places on a plate of sliced pears and tops with a pastured egg yolk.  Maybe a bit too "gourmet" and not ideal, but it's what I started with and it's very tasty.  It would do a restaurant proud, but I'd probably be OK at this point with just eating the chopped beef straight.  It's hard to describe, but I was literally angry when I first tried the beef:  I was so angry that I'd wasted my whole life not eating this stuff (I'm over 40).

  I could say a lot more, so I'll stop.


Wow! Dats a lotta cow juice!

What else do you eat regularly?

I was LI also with pasteurized milk but with raw I have no problems. I consume roughly 12 litres in 14 days.

 

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