How do you do this thing practically and get the deep healing?

[Dorothy]

A friend lent me Aajonus Vonderplanitz book Recipe for Living Without Disease. I have my own chickens and have great eggs but in his book AV says that the "protein in eggs is not utilized for cellular reproduction. They are utilized for regeneration and maintenance and cannot be substituted for meat except occasionally."

He also says that "Freezing food alters, damages, or destroys most enzymes and damages many vitamins. In animal tests, animals fed exclusively uncooked frozen meat developed severe skin problems, including mange. The other group fed the same diet of the same meat but unfrozen remained healthy and vibrant."

AV talks extensively about the dangers of irradiation and eating animals that are not fed their natural diets so it's not like I'm going to be able to go to the store and buy the standard meat.

My dogs although eating an all raw frozen diet DO have skin problems now. 

Slankers sends its meat frozen. All the raw dog foods are frozen. Getting grass-fed meat from the farmer's market - it's all frozen.

A store near me JUST started to carry grass-fed so I have a lot of research to do, but I wonder what the rest of you do besides going out and hunting for yourself? Do y'all just take get a whole animal and what you can't eat you make into high meat or something until it's gone? What do you do about fish? The freezing is what kills parasites and just about all sushi is frozen in this state.

I'm having a hard time figuring out the practicalities. I've got the eggs down from my yard, never refrigerated, bloom on. I've got a great source of grass-fed dairy and figured out how to ferment it properly for digestion. I have not a clue how long you can keep raw meats in the fridge and still have them not get really smelly or two intense for a newbie. I have to go slow with this for the hubbie and not scare him away. The eggs and milk took me a VERY long time to figure out. Would y'all help me some with this meat learning curve please? I've been reading through as many old posts as I can - but I'm still lost and I don't have time to sludge through this the way that I am and help my hubbie the way that I need to.

Thanks in advance.

[TylerDurden]

I think Aajonus is correct about the egg issue. Some people, such as myself, seem to have food-intolerance towards raw eggs. Like AV, I find them great for instant energy but not for rebuilding muscles etc. I once when I started the diet, as an experiment, ate mostly raw egg-yolks(minus egg-whites) for my raw animal food portion of my diet, and my health-recovery stalled completely.

I am deeply sceptical of the notion that frozen meats cause mange. Don't think I came across any reference to a genuine study. If AV claims to have done the experiment, then I don't believe a word of it.

When I got raw meats delivered, I was usually given the option of having them delivered either prefrozen or chilled(ie with lots of ice-packs in the box as well). Chilled means just stored at 2 degrees Celsius.

[Dorothy]

You are right - there was no footnote to that study regarding feeding dogs frozen vs. fresh - I just went back and checked. AV does tend to make general statements that seem like they should have some references as to how he came to those conclusions that give me pause at times. But when it comes to the skin problems, my three dogs do eat all frozen/defrosted raw meat and one of them does have mange and is not wanting to eat the food any more. I will try giving at least him unfrozen food and see what happens.... if I can figure out where and how and all. It will be good to verify such a claim for myself.

So when you get your chilled delivery (if you do) - how many days worth of food do you get and do you store it in the fridge? How do you store it in glass, bags etc? Does it ferment?

Have you gotten your food frozen and still felt the healing benefits continue?

Thanks Tyler.

[TylerDurden]

Prefrozen meat generally tastes less good than non-frozen meats, unsurprisingly. But that's all, I have not noticed a drop in health as a result, and eating prefrozen meats did not slow down my recovery when I was still healing on a RVAF diet ages ago. That said, a very, very few RVAFers have claimed that they did not do well on prefrozen meats.

I used to get my chilled meats delivered, meant to last 2 weeks. But, the smell was noticed by cooked foodists, so I reduced it to 1 week each time. I always use vacuum-packed meats.

[Dorothy]

Taste is important. Even after a week in the fridge would you say that the taste of the raw meat was still better than frozen/defrosted meats?

Is there any downside to ordering meats to be delivered or bought from a vendor once a week and kept in the refrigerator for someone new to the diet?

Thank you very much Tyler for the guidance. 

[eveheart]

I get my meat never-frozen from a butcher. It took me a few months of shopping around at many different markets to find a butcher that worked with me. He is a retail butcher with quite a few commercial accounts from ethnic restaurants that cook various offal dishes. He orders one 100% grass-fed beef carcass per week and saves me the femurs. I also get the lamb leg-bone whenever he bones one. I think what has worked for me so far is creating the relationship with my butcher. That didn't happen overnight, and I had lots of discouragement while I was searching. Like someone who is dating with incredibly high standards.

[TylerDurden]

Taste is important. Even after a week in the fridge would you say that the taste of the raw meat was still better than frozen/defrosted meats?

Is there any downside to ordering meats to be delivered or bought from a vendor once a week and kept in the refrigerator for someone new to the diet?

Thank you very much Tyler for the guidance. 

  Well, actually, many long-termers find that the taste improves to some extent the longer it is in the fridge. Some even get used to and enjoy the taste of high-meats even. And, yes, the taste of nonfrozen meat is always better.

[Dorothy]

I get my meat never-frozen from a butcher. It took me a few months of shopping around at many different markets to find a butcher that worked with me. He is a retail butcher with quite a few commercial accounts from ethnic restaurants that cook various offal dishes. He orders one 100% grass-fed beef carcass per week and saves me the femurs. I also get the lamb leg-bone whenever he bones one. I think what has worked for me so far is creating the relationship with my butcher. That didn't happen overnight, and I had lots of discouragement while I was searching. Like someone who is dating with incredibly high standards.

LMAO Eve. I never in a million years would have dreamed that I might be courting a butcher - but here I go! That's really exactly what I have to do isn't it? OMG. My family and friends are going to be rolling around holding their tummies they are going to laugh so hard.

I'm also thinking that I might have to go to the Hispanic section of town to get the good organ meats etc. But since I speak some Spanish but was always a vegetarian I'm going to have to go and learn how to "speak meat" in Spanish as well as English. Oh, this is going to be a hoot.

I'm going to go a manifesting! I attracting my husband by making a detailed list of what I wanted - and now I have to attract a butcher. My oh my oh my! I will make my list.

You aren't going to believe this - but I never thought of actually going to a butcher. 

[Dorothy]

  Well, actually, many long-termers find that the taste improves to some extent the longer it is in the fridge. Some even get used to and enjoy the taste of high-meats even. And, yes, the taste of nonfrozen meat is always better.

Oh yes Tyler - I know about high meats. It's more about being a newbie. High meat I'm putting in the "advanced" pile of my paleo "to do" list. After how long in the fridge does it start to become "high".

But if unfrozen always tastes better - then I need to find a way that is close enough to home to get fresh organic, grass-fed unfrozen frequently.

Thank you yet again.

[Dorothy]

Hey Eve - I just had a conversation with a local farmer who is a part of my local Weston A. Price group and she just informed me that the animals that the farmers send off to be butchered always come back frozen. She said even the fresh-seeming stuff in the stores was frozen at some point in the journey.

I'm trying to get together maybe a few people to work on a local source of fresh meat. Maybe if there is a group of us that comes a courting we will be more like a group of minstrels singing at the butchers window. hee hee. 

[goodsamaritan]

A friend lent me Aajonus Vonderplanitz book Recipe for Living Without Disease. I have my own chickens and have great eggs but in his book AV says that the "protein in eggs is not utilized for cellular reproduction. They are utilized for regeneration and maintenance and cannot be substituted for meat except occasionally."

In my experience, Aajonus is right on the money on this.

He also says that "Freezing food alters, damages, or destroys most enzymes and damages many vitamins. In animal tests, animals fed exclusively uncooked frozen meat developed severe skin problems, including mange. The other group fed the same diet of the same meat but unfrozen remained healthy and vibrant."

That is Aajonus' opinion.  And there may be a ring of truth in it.  I find freshly killed meat immensely tastier and delectable than frozen.

What do you do about fish? The freezing is what kills parasites and just about all sushi is frozen in this state.

I just eat fish raw.  In some cases the fish tastes better in ceviche.

I'm having a hard time figuring out the practicalities. I've got the eggs down from my yard, never refrigerated, bloom on. I've got a great source of grass-fed dairy and figured out how to ferment it properly for digestion. I have not a clue how long you can keep raw meats in the fridge and still have them not get really smelly or two intense for a newbie. I have to go slow with this for the hubbie and not scare him away. The eggs and milk took me a VERY long time to figure out. Would y'all help me some with this meat learning curve please? I've been reading through as many old posts as I can - but I'm still lost and I don't have time to sludge through this the way that I am and help my hubbie the way that I need to.

With experience and time you will figure out the practicalities. 

[magnetic]

Oh yes Tyler - I know about high meats. It's more about being a newbie. High meat I'm putting in the "advanced" pile of my paleo "to do" list. After how long in the fridge does it start to become "high".

But if unfrozen always tastes better - then I need to find a way that is close enough to home to get fresh organic, grass-fed unfrozen frequently.

Thank you yet again.

I bought 1/4 of a cow from a farmer and the butcher agreed not to freeze certain parts of my order. Most butchers will work with you, especially if you are buying an entire animal or a large part of one. I made 10 lbs. of high meat which was amazing. They also gave me lungs, glands, eyes and so on. They wouldn't give me the head or brain, though.  

I found high meat to be delicious and I had only been eating a RPD for a few months. You could always try it by setting a small amount of meat aside. Or you could use one of your eggs.

[Dorothy]

In my experience, Aajonus is right on the money on this.

That is AAjonus' opinion.  And there may be a ring of truth in it.  I find freshly killed meat immensely tastier and delectable than frozen.

I just eat fish raw.  In some cases the fish tastes better in ceviche.

With experience and time you will figure out the practicalities.  

Thank you GS - the opinions are helping. Taste is important. I did make some ceviche that was truly delicious. Not a hard sell to the hubbie at all. The practicalities will sort themselves you are right - with enough calling around and talking to local groups. But the opinions here do make a big difference. I would have just ordered from Slakers but instead I'm going to start searching for a good butcher and some local farmers to work with instead. I really need this to taste good for it to fly.

[Dorothy]

I bought 1/4 of a cow from a farmer and the butcher agreed not to freeze certain parts of my order. Most butchers will work with you, especially if you are buying an entire animal or a large part of one. I made 10 lbs. of high meat which was amazing. They also gave me lungs, glands, eyes and so on. They wouldn't give me the head or brain, though.  

I found high meat to be delicious and I had only been eating a RPD for a few months. You could always try it by setting a small amount of meat aside. Or you could use one of your eggs.

So good to know Magnetic - that most butchers are flexible and especially that for a relatively newbie the high meat worked. When you suggest using one of my eggs do you mean leaving it in the shell on the counter for a very long time? That's a great idea - but with only 3 chickens eggs never last that long around here.    But we are almost done with building our bigger coop and will be getting a bunch more chickens hopefully soon - then I will certainly do some experimenting with them. Fermented eggs are supposed to be a real delicacy. 

[goodsamaritan]

When you visit Manila, the butchering culture here is to butcher around 12 midnight and deliver to the wet markets by 4am, carve and display by 5am.

You wanna see videos of beef still fresh with muscles still twitching?

Or you can pick a live goat and it will be slaughtered in front of you.

[Dorothy]

Americans are so disconnected from their food.... but I'm not exactly sure that I would want being THAT close being such a sissy and all. If I lived in Manila I might never even try to eat meat. lol.

Seriously though - you are lucky GS to have such resources at your fingertips. I'm having quite the challenge procuring anything not already frozen. I'm going to go to the farmer's market on Saturday and do a thorough investigation. Someone told me there are a couple of vendors where I might get fresh meat from. Fingers crossed.

 

[afroza]

I agree with AV about eggs being an inferior source of protein compared with meat.

The problem with frozen meats is that you loose some of the bacteria and probably enzymes as well and it makes it harder to digest for me, and it definately loses taste. I agree with those who said you need to get a good butcher contact. That will help you immensely.

Maybe you don´t want to eat chickens, since you raise them, otherwise raw chicken with some lemon juice is a very easy beginners meal.

I did lot´s of flavoring at first because I didn´t want the transition to RAF to be hard or boring. For instance I did (and still do sometimes) a nice homemade pesto with fresh basil, garlic, raw pine nuts and raw parmesan cheese and butter, that I ate with my meat meals. Or a nice guacamole with avocados, garlic and fresh chili peppers. There is so many things you can do to treat yourself to tasty meals even on a RAF diet. Sometimes i put coconutoil, lemongrass, cream and some green chili on the meat and I pretend I am in a thai restaurant  After a while people on a RAF diet tend to need less flavor.

[magnetic]

When you visit Manila, the butchering culture here is to butcher around 12 midnight and deliver to the wet markets by 4am, carve and display by 5am.

You wanna see videos of beef still fresh with muscles still twitching?

Or you can pick a live goat and it will be slaughtered in front of you.

When I visited a slaughterhouse I noticed that the back muscles were still twitching many minutes after the animal was dead and cut in half. I was surprised.

[magnetic]

When you suggest using one of my eggs do you mean leaving it in the shell on the counter for a very long time?

I was thinking more of using methods used in preparation of high meat, like putting it in a jar with room for air and airing it out every 3 or 4 days, until the desired "highness" is achieved.

[Dorothy]

Thank you all for your wonderful suggestions.

I have learned that the local farmers in Texas always get their meats back from the butcher frozen. I found one farmer at the farmer's market that would get me unfrozen ground wild boar meat.

So far ground organic grass-fed meats with an egg yolk on top with a tiny bit of whole salt and pepper tastes very good to me even if pre-frozen, so I am working diligently to find a source of unfrozen meat without having to drive the long-distances to the processing plants. Farmers that grass feed in Texas are having a terrible time because of the extreme droughts and record high temperatures this year.

I am definitely going to try all those wonderful sauce recipes though! They sound lovely.   

[Fermenter Zym]

"Quote from: Dorothy on August 01, 2011, 11:16:23 pm
A friend lent me Aajonus Vonderplanitz book Recipe for Living Without Disease. I have my own chickens and have great eggs but in his book AV says that the "protein in eggs is not utilized for cellular reproduction. They are utilized for regeneration and maintenance and cannot be substituted for meat except occasionally."

In my experience, Aajonus is right on the money on this."

Are eggs a good source of bioavailable fat then?

[van]

Dorothy I am in the camp of eating only fresh.  My sheep/goat farm dogs have always eaten just fresh.  Years ago I read a book by the grandmother of feeding dogs raw.  She swore up and down about how eventually freezing would catch up with them.   I'm sure Iguana could add his viewpoint.  But then there's Lex and all he eats is frozen, so to each their own. 
   For excellent quality fresh Bison, that I much prefer taste and energy wise over anything else,  got North Star Bison, and talk to Mary the owner.  She's most responsible to your needs and what you pay in shipping you'll easily pay in gas and time driving to get your food.  I buy 5-10 lb chunks of sirloin and hang it in my fridge on hooks,  maybe your husband could rig something up.  It really works well,  I just reach in and slice off a piece as it ages and gets better.     good luck,  those eggs are good aren't they.  We sprout the grain in five gallon pails with holes in them before feeding.  You might like to think about that,,, not really hard to do once your set up, and then you can buy organic whole seeds and grain instead of mashed crushed oxidized chicken meal. 

[Aaaaaa]

Hey van!  You sound like you're doing what I am planning on doing, meat-wise!  I'm actually going to order some bison from NorthStar Bison tomorrow...they are only 4 hours away from me, so apparently I can use regular shipping and still get it in 1 day.  :-)

What do you get for your chunks of sirloin?  Roast?  How long does 5 lbs last you?  I *was* going to order two roasts, about 3lbs each, and open one for the first week, and leave the other vacuum sealed for the second week.  Maybe its a better idea to just get one big chunk of meat that is about 6lbs total and open it right away and hang it up like you do?  I have noticed that even my pre-frozen meats taste better when they've been "airing" in the fridge for a while.  I like those dry edges they get! :-P
Could you post a photo, or explain in more depth about your meat-hanging apparatus in your fridge?   I am thinking of rigging up something like that. 

Where do you get your dog's food?  I have a small husky mix, Loki, that I've been feeding raw for about a year now.  I'm sure that prefrozen raw is better than kibble, but what I'm hearing about prefrozen meat eventually being bad for humans/animals is worrying me.  I just don't know how I'd be able to do it affordably--I doubt I can afford to buy him meat from NorthStar...the cheapest stuff I saw was like $11/lb!  Any suggestions?

I sure wish I had chickens like you guys do!  I do get pastured eggs, but I only go once a month.  I asked my farmer to leave mine unwashed and unrefridgerated for this next order--we'll see if she agrees, hopefully!  Do you think they would be OK for about a month at room temp (69-70*F)?   And how does one make those aged/fermented eggs?  From the pictures I've seen, they almost solidify like hardboiled eggs?

[van]

Sileindigo, hi.  Maybe I can get a few pics, in a while, but for now,  I use the Stainless Steel wire rack from the oven and I hang it from the top of the fridge.  I can do this because my fridge has a light panel that I can tie to.  Then I lower the shelves below some, and with hooks I buy at the hardware store,  I machine file one end to be sharp and hang the pieces from the wire oven rack.  It works Very well.  I used to leave the meat in bags and open when needed.  that all seemed fine, neat and handy, but the meat has no air in the bags and so any bacteria would be anearobic, plus I don't trust the plastic leaching from the extended time in the bags.  As soon as I get the order, I rinse really well, let drip dry in collanders in the sinks and then hang in fridge.  I'd say six pound roasts are good to hang, maybe less.    Don't worry about ordering too much, it will just hang longer and be just fine.    Maybe since you live so close, Mary could put together 'dog' food  for you from scraps,  worth asking about. 

[eveheart]

Sile, I hang big chunks of meat on hooks, too. Here's a thread with pics that inspired me:

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/keeping-meat-and-fat-in-the-fridge-for-week(s)/msg77490/#msg77490