Author Topic: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results  (Read 28531 times)

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Offline billy4184

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2011, 06:57:05 am »
Sabertooth, I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. I don't see how a cat could not benefit from being smart. Evolution is supposed to favour those who survive, and a cat on top of the food chain, with no known natural predators, and access to an ample supply of food would theoretically be a prime candidate.
I understand what you say about the perfect storm creating man and I do agree.
The article you posted clearly draws a comparison between Neanderthals who ate red meat (which usually carries a higher percentage of fat) and early humans who ate seafood (generally a lot less fat). This is one of the basis for its thread that omega 3 and DHA contributed to the formation of the human brain.
I do say that fat is calorie dense and therefore might have provided an abundance of calories during periods when vegetation was scarce, but I don't think this would apply in the tropics and only for short periods of time (on an evolutionary scale) in mid latitudes.
The human brain (largely composed of fat) does not need high dietary fat in order to grow, because fat can and usually is made from everything that is eaten. The body does not say "well I'm not getting enough dietary fat so sorry, no can do" it makes it from whatever it is given.
Lastly, if our brains evolved on a diet of high fat, why didn't our guts? Why didn't our teeth? Why didn't our bodily secretions and functions and everything else? Carbohydrates are still preferred as an energy source. I don't care what any Stefansson or any scientists say but I feel like hell in ketosis.
Cheers

« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 07:13:16 am by TylerDurden »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2011, 07:17:50 am »
The idea is that a much bigger hominid brain requires a hell of a lot more energy to sustain itself, and fat has far more of that in it than proteins or carbohydrates. Plus, brains are one of the few organs in the body made mostly of  fat - marrow and, to a much lesser extent,  tongue being the major exceptions. So, teeth etc. are not relevant here.

As far as ketosis is concerned, I agree with you there, I did very badly on it, too(though it took c. 3 weeks to start suffering, in my case). But the idea isn't that our palaeo ancestors ate an all-animal food diet(though some of them  must have), they simply prized the brains and marrow above all other foods. The idea being that those organs would have been left behind by predators.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2011, 07:24:51 am »
Summary: I agree with Billy on some points and disagree on others; I nearly completely agree with Tyler and completely agree with Sabertooth. The key point that no one disputed and is universally accepted by scientists is that increased brain growth provided increased intelligence going from Australopithecines to Neanderthals and Cro Magnons. I haven't seen a good explanation of why we should ignore brain size completely after that point.

I'm surprised I didn't get more backlash. Good to see that political correctness doesn't appear to run amok here.

Details:

Hi PaleoPhil,
Asians are supposed to be the most intelligent race in terms of IQ and they are usually the smallest, skinniest people around.
If you look at the map, you'll see that plenty of Asians, including Chinese, are in the bigger-brained areas. The research up to this point is pretty limited, though, as it's so politically incorrect, so it will be interesting to see what future research finds.

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I'm not necessarily refuting the information you put forward, but it may well be something like, for example, the skull grew so that there could be more fat to keep the brain warm.
Of course, we can imagine anything. It's putting our speculations to the test that is the important thing, either by finding research to support them or doing our own tests.

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Like I said before, fat can be made from any of the macronutrients including carbs and protein. I haven't seen an animal fatter than an elephant and it doesn't eat meat.
Wild elephants may not be as fat as you think and body fat is not correlated with brain fat, AFAIK. More importantly, a key factor for intelligence is brain to body ratio, which is quite low in elephants and much higher in humans.

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I would suspect that the evolution of the human brain was something which involved a lot of different factors, a lot of them seemingly very small and insignificant, such as the inclusion of slightly more omega 3 than usual. That and the adaptability of the human organism as a catalyst. But that's just my theory.
That's pretty much what I said, except I would say significantly more omega 3, likely sourced from eating brains and marrow of wild animals, fish and shellfish. Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt mentioned that 25% of the human brain is omega 3 FA and 65% is saturated FA. We are literally fatheads :) and scientists like Loren Cordain hypothesize that eating brains and other foods rich in omega 3 (and I would add, saturated fat) provided the raw material for the evolution of larger hominin brains.

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I don't know if Eskimos are smarter than the general population,
I don't know either, as brain size is not the same thing as intelligence, but the evidence does show correlation (which is not causation, of course).

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but perhaps their increased brain size is because of all the omega 3 and DHA that they get from the fish they eat?
and sea mammals and land mammals (as the resource material for the brain), perhaps in combination with the demands on the brain of the Arctic environment (the selective pressure).

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Asians (especially Japan) tend to eat a lot of fish too.
Yes, and they've been eating them for thousands of years or more and in the past they were largely wild fish (omega-3 rich). It is a bit surprising that the Japanese and Scandinavians don't rank higher on that skull-size map, given the history of seafood consumption. It looks like the areas where caribou and reindeer were the staple traditional foods have the largest skull sizes.

I'm afraid that the 10 percent of the brain idea is just an urban myth. It started early in the past century but, since then, scientists have worked out that all parts of the brain are used.
Quite right. It gets repeated so often that it's taken as gospel.

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As for intelligence,  I would concede that larger brain-size is a little indicative re intelligence(that is people with larger brains will, presumably, usually have above-average intelligence, though not necessarily genius-level). However, I am convinced that cultural behaviour, among other things, also plays a part in intelligence.
I agree.

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Also, I'm a sceptic of the accuracy of IQ tests, since I found that I started doing better on  IQ tests in general, after doing 1 or 2 of them.
The evidence is imperfect, so I'm sure there will be plenty more debate in the scientific community on this.

A side note--Seth Roberts, myself and others have reported improved brain function on Paleo and raw Paleo diets. Seth even does his own little intelligence tests and tracks which foods give it a boost. So your own brain function may well have improved. We know that brains can shrink on deficient diets, such as in the vegan and vegetarian brain shrinkage case, so it's not far-fetched to think that some reversal of that shrinkage might be possible via improved diet, as well as improved neural connections and so on.

---

Excellent points, Sabertooth.

---

Sabertooth, I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from. I don't see how a cat could not benefit from being smart.
Benefits from evolutionary changes, like increased intelligence from larger brains, don't come without a cost. Cats already have sufficient intelligence to hunt and kill prey with their speed, fangs, claws, strength and so on. Brains consume a lot of energy and larger heads could reduce speed, balance, agility, etc. If the energy cost and other costs of a larger brain were more than offset by the intelligence gained, then cats would have evolved larger brains, but it apparently wasn't, so they didn't. Otherwise, all mammals would evolve larger and larger brains and all would have huge heads. LOL

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I don't think this would apply in the tropics and only for short periods of time (on an evolutionary scale) in mid latitudes.
The tropics that H. erectus and H. sapiens evolved in were savannahs mixed with forest, lakes, rivers and seasides (the balance of which shifted with each major climactic change) that were teeming with megafauna. It wasn't like the banana forest that vegans dream up, if that's what you're thinking (bananas aren't even native to Africa, BTW).

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Lastly, if our brains evolved on a diet of high fat, why didn't our guts? Why didn't our teeth?
Who says they didn't and why? Our guts actually did reduce in size as animal fat and meat intake increased and intake of tough, fibery foods declined, and continued to shrink as cooked foods were introduced and increasingly consumed.

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Carbohydrates are still preferred as an energy source. I don't care what any Stefansen or any scientists say but I feel like hell in ketosis.
Carbs are a useful energy source, but that is beside the point, as Tyler pointed out well.

I disagree with Stefansson on some points too, and surprisingly, he actually was OK with including some carbs like potatoes in his recommended diet and he reported witnessing Eskimos eat wild potatoes, which are called Eskimo potatoes, BTW. You won't see zero carbers talk about Eskimo potatoes much, because they don't fit their preconceived notions. Both the notions of the banana jungle paradise and the zero-carb Eskimos are largely based on myth rather than evidence.

The key point that no one disputed is that increased brain growth is universally recognized by scientists as providing increased intelligence going from Australopithecines to Neanderthals and Cro Magnon; it's only the recent bit of the last 30,000 years or so where they start to abandon this view and suddenly say that brain size magically doesn't matter any more. Rather too convenient, I think, and possibly mainly due to towing the line of political correctness so as to stay employed and continue receiving funding, and perhaps because people generally don't like to think that any group of people is born with a significant advantage, especially among committed leftwing ideologues like the recently departed Stephan Jay Gould.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2011, 07:44:47 am »
Well, things like my concentration/alertness have definitely improved, as has my memory, so I'm sure my brain has benefitted. I doubt my ability to do IQ tests has improved - at least, I did one online IQ test recently, wherein I scored just c. 125 IQ points, whereas other official and unofficial IQ tests in the past, pre-raw diet, had me, usually, at an average 135 IQ points, with variations up to 150 or somewhere below for specific individual IQ tests measuring visuo-spatial intelligence, numerical ability etc.. I doubt that means I am less intelligent due to the diet, as the online test seems less "valid" than the other types of test I performed in the past, I suspect my IQ is still the same.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2011, 08:04:42 am »
So concentration, alertness and memory have no impact on IQ scores? If so, that's surprising. At any rate, I don't want to get bogged down into a discussion of IQ tests. We seem to agree on the fundamental points.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2011, 08:14:24 am »
So concentration, alertness and memory have no impact on IQ scores? If so, that's surprising.
I know, it surprised me too.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2011, 11:38:21 am »
The 10% usage isn't true? I've been hearing that over and over for close to forever. Thanks for putting me straight on that one. I tell ya, things that are accepted as true seem to change so often that it's hard to consider anything true anymore.

So I'll bite Phil:

"The key point that no one disputed is that increased brain growth is universally recognized by scientists as providing increased intelligence going from Australopithecines to Neanderthals and Cro Magnon; it's only the recent bit of the last 30,000 years or so where they start to abandon this view and suddenly say that brain size magically doesn't matter any more."

How do they know that intelligence increased going from Australopithecines to Neanderthals and Cro Magnon? I mean IQ tests don't even count! If use of new technologies count that would prove that having smaller brains increased intelligence moving now into the information age! How does one classify and determine intelligence?

Many scientists consider tool use and advanced language skills to be the best sign of intelligence - but parrots have been proven to use our own language as well being able to count and do other advanced verbal communications with humans. (See anything about Alex the african grey). Crows use tools. But birds have smaller brains in proportion to their body weight than the large predator mammals! (That is unless that is also untrue even though it's what I've heard my whole life). 

How we use our brains has changed. Does it really make us less intelligent now than our ancestors if our brains are smaller? Are there tests that were done on the vegans/vegetarians to prove that they were dumber because they had smaller brains? Maybe they became more like parrots when their ancestors did activities more like lions?

How does one prove the correlation between larger brains as higher intelligence across species with totally different kinds of activities? How can one say that the brain being larger in our ancestors who were out hunting and changing environments constantly and using different parts of their brains than we do were more intelligent than we are now?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prove that any diet is better. I just don't see so far with what has been posted here so far (or maybe I missed it) that proves a correlation between brain size and intelligence.

It seems to me similar to the cholesterol myth: cholesterol is present in people that have heart attacks so it must cause them. Brain size was bigger when we think that humans got smarter so that must have made them that way.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 02:22:03 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline billy4184

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2011, 01:35:40 pm »
The idea is that a much bigger hominid brain requires a hell of a lot more energy to sustain itself, and fat has far more of that in it than proteins or carbohydrates.

Brains consume a lot of energy and larger heads could reduce speed, balance, agility, etc.

I don't imagine that the brain uses more than 20% of the total calories required, which for a 2000 calorie diet is 400. If the brain became 1.5 times bigger, the difference is about 200 calories. This is not a great deal by any stretch of the imagination.

We're talking about paleolithic times here!
The kalahari bushmen currently live quite well in the middle of the kalahari desert, where you or me would drop dead in a few hours. They are confined to limited reserves in the hope that they will decide to join the city life. They compete with sports hunters and a very strained, very lean ecosystem, and according to a few sources only need to spend a four-hour week (excluding food preparation) gathering food.
I would say that by comparison, our paleolithic ancestors in the tropics would have been presented with such a buffet that they wouldn't know where to start! 200 calories more would not have been hard to find.

Let me state again my argument:
Dietary fat did NOT result in a bigger brain
Omega 3 likely CONTRIBUTED

Eating more seafood may have contributed to a bigger brain because of the availability of omega 3. But, as Sabertooth's article implied, it had to do with the introduction of seafood, not some kind of explosion in meat-eating in general, because the Neanderthals already ate a lot of red meat, and did not appear to experience any measurable difference. It definitely, in my opinion, had nothing to do with eating more fat as such.

I agree with Paleophil that probably a small difference in brain size equals a small difference in intelligence, but as Dorothy said the current tests are debatable and on the whole this is a very  debatable matter. Personally, I think it would have a lot to do with active neurons or something like that. However, if a brain doubled in size, I believe it would be significantly more intelligent.

Lastly, the idea that a big cat already gets enough food and so it will not evolve does not sound right at all to me. If that were the case, if humans started eating a lot of fat, they would cease to evolve, rather than grow a bigger brain.
Cheers
"It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell." Buddha

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2011, 02:45:47 pm »
Dorothy, the point re crows etc. is correct, but only in the sense that there is no fine dividing line between humans and other animals, merely a series of progressive steps inbetween.

What we see in dogs and wolves is interesting as a comparison. For example, it is well-known that wolves are way more intelligent than dogs, being subject to natural selection etc. But dogs generally do better than wolves at certain typical human-made tasks for pets, simply because they have been imprinted, via inbreeding for certain obedience-related characteristics, and have been trained from birth in a pavlovian manner to do tasks. By contrast, when wolves' intelligence was tested in a neutral fashion, they were found to out-perform dogs:-

http://www.livescience.com/5672-wolves-beat-dogs-logic-test.html


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/my-puppy-my-self/201110/the-canine-human-bond-the-real-reason-dogs-are-smarter-chimps

The point, here, is that the standard Palaeolithic caveman is very likely to have been a genius compared to Neolithic or modern man, but the latter two had more complex social systems and technology which, ultimately, made them seem more intelligent. Another comparison would be intelligent criminals, with access to only some forms of technology and a clever plan, faced by millions of (mostly) less intelligent government employees(police etc.) - the latter usually beat the former, not because of high-level thinking, but  because they have better access to technology( the general population , for example, is usually banned from buying chemicals for explosives etc.) plus the police etc. have access to information on criminals' usual habits, as well as standard police procedure etc. So, advanced cultural info can make modern man seem more intelligent than a palaeolithic man, even if that isn't the case.
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2011, 02:51:01 pm »
Meat is a better explanation than fish for bigger hominid brains. For one thing, the aquatic ape theory is largely discredited re unsuitable evidence. Plus, most humans did not just live right next to the coast or rivers in palaeo times but would keep up with migrating herds across vast distances.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2011, 05:34:11 pm »
There's an interesting SF book by William Golding, "the Inheritors", about Neanderthals having telepathy which meant they never developed language like humans had to, so this is the glib explanation for why Neanderthals died out. I personally wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the Neanderthals were more intelligent than modern humans in actual fact.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline billy4184

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2011, 06:08:33 pm »
There's an interesting SF book by William Golding, "the Inheritors", about Neanderthals having telepathy which meant they never developed language like humans had to, so this is the glib explanation for why Neanderthals died out. I personally wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the Neanderthals were more intelligent than modern humans in actual fact.

Sounds like an interesting book. It doesn't sound likely, but then again a lot of people seem to think that our evolution is at an end. It may conceivably have ended a while ago, but technology still came forth as a completion of the expression of our abilities.
I respect science, but I'm aware of the shakiness of the foundations for many of our conclusions.
I think my Dad has it somewhere. I'll definitely look it up.

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2011, 08:12:54 pm »
How do they know that intelligence increased going from Australopithecines to Neanderthals and Cro Magnon? I mean IQ tests don't even count!
Not based on IQ tests, as humans have changed since Neanderthal and Cro Magnon days and no group of living people is regarded as truly Neanderthal or Cro Magnon. Scientists look at the overall evidence, including brain size, artifacts, tatoos, animal remains, habitat remains and so on. If you have evidence that human intelligence hasn't progressed since Australopithecines, feel free to share it.

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How we use our brains have changed. Does it really make us less intelligent now than our ancestors if our brains are smaller? Are there tests that were done on the vegans/vegetarians to prove that they were dummer because they had smaller brains? Maybe they became more like parrots when their ancestors did activities more like lions?
It seems like you're searching for reasons not to believe the evidence.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prove that any diet is better. I just don't see so far with what has been posted here so far (or maybe I missed it) that proves a correlation between brain size and intelligence.
Science is not about proof, it's about asking questions, searching for evidence, analyzing it, developing hypotheses based on the evidence and putting those to the test.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 09:56:17 pm by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2011, 08:16:00 pm »
I don't imagine that the brain uses more than 20% of the total calories required, which for a 2000 calorie diet is 400. If the brain became 1.5 times bigger, the difference is about 200 calories.
Again, one can imagine anything one likes, it's the evidence which is key.

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Let me state again my argument:
Dietary fat did NOT result in a bigger brain....
Omega 3 likely CONTRIBUTED...
Omega 3 is dietary fat, so fat did contribute to a bigger brain. Whether it came more from seafood or land mammals is not that crucial to my main original points.

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I agree with Paleophil that probably a small difference in brain size equals a small difference in intelligence, but as Dorothy said the current tests are debatable and on the whole this is a very  debatable matter.
I basically agree.

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Lastly, the idea that a big cat already gets enough food and so it will not evolve does not sound right at all to me.
Without selective pressures, why would it evolve a larger brain?

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If that were the case, if humans started eating a lot of fat, they would cease to evolve, rather than grow a bigger brain.
Why? What then is your alternative hypothesis about the food(s) that provided the raw material for the evolution of larger hominin brains?

The reason dietary fat, including omega 3 FAs, is so crucial to the brain and overall health is dramatically underscored by a recent blog post, with observational and research evidence thoughtfully supplied within it: Paleo Baby
THURSDAY, MAY 5, 2011, http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/2011/05/paleo-baby.html

For those who doubt any of this, test it out yourself in the way that Seth Roberts does (The unreasonable effectiveness of my self-experimentation): try a low fat raw vegan diet and see how your brain fairs on that vs. a raw Paleo diet rich in animal/seafood fat.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Dorothy

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2011, 11:35:10 pm »
Not based on IQ tests, as humans have changed since Neanderthal and Cro Magnon days and no group of living people is regarded as truly Neanderthal or Cro Magnon. Scientists look at the overall evidence, including brain size, artifacts, tatoos, animal remains, habitat remains and so on. If you have evidence that human intelligence hasn't progressed since Australopithecines, feel free to share it.
It seems like you're searching for reasons not to believe the evidence.
Science is not about proof, it's about asking questions, searching for evidence, analyzing it, developing hypotheses based on the evidence and putting those to the test.

"overall evidence, including brain size, artifacts, tatoos, animal remains, habitat remains and so on. "

This is so unspecific that I'm surprised you would say such a thing. Brain size is being debated so the thing we are debating itself as evidence? What artifacts? Tatoos- how do we know about tatoos on skin that no longer exist? What about habitat remains? These might say that they had some tools? What???

I'm not looking for ways to not believe evidence - I'm asking how there could be evidence and what you think it is? I don't need to present proof - you were presenting "proof" and I'm asking you what it is and how those conclusions could even be arrived at? You can make hypotheses and gather information that eventually will make you come to conclusions - but what you have presented so far speaks more to wanting a certain outcome and finding things to support your hypotheses even though there are countless holes and little that is substantive that has been shared so far.

Brain size = increased intelligence. Why? How?

Humans can increase their intelligence (according to what I have read) dramatically without increasing their brain size by learning new and varied skills. The more challenge to a brain the more neural pathways that get formed. The environment and activities play a crucial role in evaluating intelligence.

Birds can be more intelligent because they have to evaluate size, shape, color, number when it comes to food sources over large and varied terrain, communicate with each other verbally in elaborate ways including complex mating songs and are extremely social with elaborate and subtle hierarchies structures that are necessary for survival. At least - that's what many believe from what I read and I think it makes sense. They still have small brains though.

And wolves vs. dogs Tyler - I'm not sure the pertinence when it comes to parrots that are not domesticated animals even when pets and that are studied in the wild and I don't think many people keep pet crows. Dogs it is very true have been bred to the point where they are one of the few animals that look into the eyes and faces of humans and can interpret our emotions and understand pointing. They have adapted to pet living and to some, that makes them intelligent in a way that some believe wolves are far behind.

Again - what do you use to evaluate intelligence? If it's about telepathy, then my dogs are unbelievably smart because they respond to my thoughts without me speaking all the time. I can give my beagle a command to sit without saying it or moving and she does it. I can just think about feeding the dogs and they go crazy. Which environment - the wild or living with humans makes for higher intelligence? It depends on what you use as indicators of intelligence.


Offline HIT_it_RAW

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2011, 04:00:19 am »
Quote
Brain size = increased intelligence. Why? How?

Humans can increase their intelligence (according to what I have read) dramatically without increasing their brain size by learning new and varied skills. The more challenge to a brain the more neural pathways that get formed. The environment and activities play a crucial role in evaluating intelligence.
Science has made an attempt to measure intelligence by brain size. They plotted brain surface area and weight against bodyweight. Spermwhales came in first humans second..

The scientific community has long stated that humans cannot improve intelligence(IQ) one can merely enlarge knowledge. Very recently there has been some proof that it might be possible to improve IQ during teenage years. This is still controversial and very much point of debate.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15369851
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preserve the meat, deliver a baby, nurture the sick and reassure the dying, fight a war … specialization is for insects.”

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2011, 06:14:49 am »
The trouble, D, is that you are confusing training/education with intelligence. The 2 are NOT the same. So, wolves are more intelligent than dogs(I believe they can even  respond to human eye contact, given one study I read yesterday) - the difference is, merely, that dogs are better trained, via inbreeding for certain traits, as well as dog-training and, in particular, socialisation, than wolves.

Similiarly, someone might become a bit better at solving puzzles due to training or extra stimulation of some sort helping to thicken some areas of the brain for that period of time(which would boost concentration/attention to detail/memory etc.), but their intelligence would stay the same. In other words, put dogs and wolves in a situation not involving humans, and the wolves would win every time, due to their higher intelligence.

To give a real-life example:- I know of an adult with a mental age of 2 who, through  endless education/training/psychological counselling is able to swim, open locks, shake hands, carry heavy buckets down steps and a hundred other more complex tasks - to the point where, at first glance, one would assume that he was like everyone else re intellect.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2011, 07:15:31 am »
Did you read the link that HIR posted Tyler? They say that the boy mentioned above increased his intelligence based on his IQ score. What other measurement do we have at this point to judge intelligence?

There is something to be said for the training of a brain. Once a new neural pathway is established it is not only a new skill, but a difference in the brain itself. Multiply new neural pathways thousands or millions of times over and you have increased intelligence.... don't you?

My dogs haven't been trained to look at my eyes - it's a form of evolution to survive well in their environment that includes humans and I don't understand why that isn't considered a part of intelligence. Even the youngest puppies make eye contact. Or even if it is just breeding (human intervention for adaptation at greater speeds to be better/smarter at living with us) why wouldn't it count? People with impaired brain function often cannot and do not look other people in the eyes.

I'm not trying to make any point in regard to how important fat is for brain function or the paleo diet. I'm just not convinced that brain size equates necessarily to higher intelligence or whales would never have been hunted nearly to extinction and parrots would be dumber than most mammals. Snark.

And........... Phil enticed (almost dared) me!  :P
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 02:23:48 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline billy4184

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2011, 09:10:34 am »
Dorothy, I agree with you.
It's like saying a typewriter is more advanced than an ipod because its bigger. It depends what's inside. Besides the neuron density, the brain has a lot of different components, the relative sizes of which can deeply affect `intelligence' based on individual perceptions of what intelligence is. I mean, a dog can smell a hell of a lot better than a human, and I'm sure it has to do with increased neural activity in some part of the brain. Does that make it more intelligent? Science doesn't really know very much about the human body at all, in my book.
I must say that I do theorize that there is a limit to the capability of a certain size of brain, a limit which can be raised if it is enlargened. However I am not sure.

Paleophil, I know that omega 3 is a fat, but it is a certain type of fat. I am arguing that dietary fat as such is not conducive to human brain evolution or development. Fish has ten times more omega 3 than the richest red meat, and so a few sardines, which overall are very lean, would provide the same omega 3 as a few kilos of beef.

I don't know where this perception came from that brain development requires some gigantic amount of fat and energy. It is a little computer which uses a surprisingly small amount of power. Most of the energy consumed is used in heating and maintaining a very big body, as well as muscular activity. Therefore I would be much more concerned with the type of food I was eating, than the overall quantity. A lot of people believe that if they drown themselves in the vitamins, they will get `superhuman powers'. Luckily for them, the body tightly regulates that sort of thing or they would poison themselves. I believe its the same with fat, except that its not well regulated. Eat too much and you'll probably just get fat, and probably develop a lot of health problems as well.

I don't have any worthwhile theories yet on why the brain evolved, but it didn't have to do with raw energy or simple fat as far as I'm concerned.

I don't want to try vegan at the moment, thanks very much, because I doubt that I would be able to avoid all the problems I have heard others describe. Problems which can be entirely avoided with small amounts of the right kind of meat. Just look at the Okinawans, living healthily to 114. They eat a bit of fish every now and then, and mostly vegetables and rice (not raw though). That's all the proof I need to know that I don't need a lot of fat.

It seems like people have to swing from vegan to carnivore and back again, without stopping to check what's in between.

Cheers
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 09:27:13 am by billy4184 »
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2011, 10:46:52 am »
Summary:
> Isn't measured brain sizes evidence regarding brain sizes, albeit quite limited by the small amount of evidence available?
> I'm not claiming proof of anything.
> Brain size does not equal increased intelligence, they are merely correlated, and my original point was more regarding brain size than intelligence, as intelligence is much more difficult to measure than brain and skull size.

Details:

"overall evidence, including brain size, artifacts, tatoos, animal remains, habitat remains and so on. "

This is so unspecific that I'm surprised you would say such a thing. Brain size is being debated so the thing we are debating itself as evidence?
Since when is measured brain sizes (based on molding material they put into skulls) not evidence of brain size? Do you have better evidence?

Quote
I'm not looking for ways to not believe evidence - I'm asking how there could be evidence and what you think it is? I don't need to present proof - you were presenting "proof"
I don't recall ever claiming to present "proof" on this topic and I try to be careful in general not to claim proof, though I probably don't always succeed. If you see somewhere where I used that term, please let me know so I can correct it out. Suggestive evidence is not proof, though it's better than no evidence at all.

Quote
but what you have presented so far speaks more to wanting a certain outcome and finding things to support your hypotheses even though there are countless holes and little that is substantive that has been shared so far.
I just try to follow wherever the evidence, science and logic lead. As I said before, if you have better evidence, please share it.

Quote
Brain size = increased intelligence. Why? How?
Brain size doesn't equal intelligence, it is correlated with it. Correlation is not causation, it's only suggestive evidence that can point the way for further research. That equation goes well beyond the evidence. I even was careful to note the following:
(Billy wrote:) "I don't know if Eskimos are smarter than the general population...."

(I replied:) "I don't know either, as brain size is not the same thing as intelligence, but the evidence does show correlation (which is not causation, of course)."

This is a good example of why my standard approach is to try to avoid claiming to have "proved" anything (when I'm paying proper attention to my language) and I try to be careful to use language like "correlation," "the evidence suggests," "it seems that" and so on, rather than "this proves" or "this is absolutely the case" or "this must be...." I even created a thread on this topic where I advocated for not making absolute claims, especially not without evidence. I'm comfortable with uncertainty and open-mindedness. I try to go wherever the evidence leads me. Of course, different people sometimes interpret the same evidence differently, which is fine and which is what scientific discussion and debate is for. I find I'm persuaded more by the evidence that other folks present (which can include anecdotal evidence where appropriate--I'm not an evidence snob) than I am by opinions. You're free to your opinions, of course, just please don't expect me to be swayed much by them, nor do I expect you to be swayed much by mine.

Quote
Humans can increase their intelligence (according to what I have read) dramatically without increasing their brain size by learning new and varied skills.
I've never argued that one can't increase one's intelligence. Please note that I suggested the opposite was possible to Tyler above--that an improved diet might increase reverse brain shrinkage and thus increase intelligence--and I've read that doing mental exercises can help maintain mental ability into old age and reduce the damaging effects of Alzheimer's.

Quote
Birds can be more intelligent because they have to evaluate size, shape, color, number when it comes to food sources over large and varied terrain, communicate with each other verbally in elaborate ways including complex mating songs and are extremely social with elaborate and subtle hierarchies structures that are necessary for survival.
More intelligent than what, humans?

Thanks for the feedback, Dorothy. I tried to be as clear as possible and I hope I got the message across better this time. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks again and cheerio!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 11:00:28 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
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Offline billy4184

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2011, 11:31:12 am »
PaleoPhil,
I do appreciate the quality of your arguments, even if I don't agree with you on some things. I enjoy `locking horns' with people like you who are articulate and knowledgeable. When I read other forums, the threads that I enjoy the most are those which have people from different points of view creating a lively debate.
Cheers
"It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell." Buddha

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2011, 06:36:55 pm »
Re comment:- "I mean, a dog can smell a hell of a lot better than a human, and I'm sure it has to do with increased neural activity in some part of the brain" - Well, it's not just an aspect of the dogs' smell-centre in the brain being larger, but they also have far more olfactory receptrors than us in their noses.

But, again, it's an irrelevant point, since intelligence is usually defined by the size of the frontal lobes(and the connections inbetween the 2 lobes) - so if a brain is larger all-round, then that person's frontal lobes  will be larger too, likely making them more intelligent - unless, for example, you are suggesting that some humans have, unlike other humans, brains more like dogs with smell-centres in the brain 40 times larger than any other human type?!!

I am dubious re the fish-omega-3 claim: Maybe that's the case with regard to grainfed meats, but grassfed meats, and especially wild meats, should have huge amounts of omega-3s in them. Anyway, it's also irrelevant since most palaeo humans did not only lived on the coast or by rivers all the time, so must have depended largely on meats.

Re Okinawans:- There is some evidence to suggest that they benefit largely from (raw) seafood and caloric restriction:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet

Most unfortunately for you, it turns out, from the above article, that the Okinawans do indeed go in heavily for fat in their diet, notably pork!!! (cf:- "The Okinawan diet has a generous amount of fat, particularly from pork, which is central part of the diet; additionally, all cooking is done in lard.").

So the message is "eat lots of fat to live longer".

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 08:47:00 pm by TylerDurden »
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" Ron Paul.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2011, 06:48:23 pm »
D, IQ tests are not really valid tests for intelligence. They determine things like numerical ability, which in all but a few savants, is learnt through education.  Simply put, someone can train themselves to think faster  or to have a better memory  etc., but that is not the same as innate intelligence.

Re dogs:-  It doesn’t count because it’s not innate intelligence. Sure, border collies are the most intelligent of dogs but they have zilch chance of survival in the wild compared to wolves. The point is also that the person I mentioned I knew who had the mental age of 2, also used to have trouble with  looking into peoples’ eyes, but, I met him just recently after many years, and after a great deal of training in previous months, he was able to look me in the eyes without a problem. Yet, no psychologist would pretend that he had become more intelligent. Sure, this training of his no doubt improved certain mental pathways, but he is still retarded(or do we have to use the more politically-correct word „special“, these days?).

As for whales, we were not talking about brain-size but brain-size to body ratio. It makes sense that a very large mammal, such as a whale, would need a large brain in order to control the rest of its body, but only humans really have an excess brain-size to body ratio, which means parts of the human brain can be used for other things like intellectual thought.

¨Parrots are none too bright. Sure, they can be taught to discern colours or corners and the like, but one can’t suggest that a parrot is a genius just because it can copy its masters voice to the point where it can recite the National Anthem –mimicry has nothing to do with intelligence.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline billy4184

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2011, 07:28:54 pm »
Congratulations Tyler on waving around a study it looks like you haven't even read. I'll quote it:

"The Okinawan diet includes small quantities of animal meat, primarily pork, and cooking is sometimes done with lard. However, their overall traditional diet would be considered a very-high-carbohydrate by modern standards, with carbohydrates, protein, and fat providing 85%, 9% and 6% of total calories respectively."

The reason I got arguing on this thread in the first place was about another piece of literature that it looks like no one even bothered to read. Great.
6% is not `generous' or `heavy'.
I'm not here to tell you or anyone what to eat, I don't have any barrow to push, unlike some people here. I am only arguing for the clear-headed acceptance of the truth, no matter what it is. So it is not `unfortunate' for me if  you decide not to see it, I can accept that. I just hope you will allow other people to make their own choices, by encouraging the spread of useful and truthful information, which is what I hope this forum is about.
I've said enough. My arguments speak for themselves.
Cheers
"It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell." Buddha

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: What are your experiences with short term vs. long term results
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2011, 08:15:09 pm »
PaleoPhil,
I do appreciate the quality of your arguments, even if I don't agree with you on some things. I enjoy `locking horns' with people like you who are articulate and knowledgeable. When I read other forums, the threads that I enjoy the most are those which have people from different points of view creating a lively debate.
Cheers
Thanks, Billy. I value the person with an honest, warrior spirit who provides me with useful info and I welcome honorable battle.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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