Author Topic: School killings  (Read 25186 times)

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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: School killings
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2012, 02:55:01 am »
...I know for a fact that NYPD police officers receive hundreds of hours of training and range time in learning how to accurately shoot firearms. Every officer on the force is capable of hitting a fist-sized target from a distance of eight feet. Officers must routinely re-qualify on their pistol skills to remain on the force.

True enough, but handgun exams are generally done in controlled situations where you're standing in a shooting range aiming at a target that isn't moving with no distractions. You might score perfectly, and then on the street with people running and yelling and your target trying to evade you, rush you, throw things at you or shoot back it's entirely possibly you might not be able to hit anything with your sidearm reliably, even at 8 or 10 feet.

I'm accurate with a handgun in controlled situations without distractions out to maybe 30 yards, beyond that I can't reliably hit a paper target (without a laser sight). Add people moving around behind me, someone yelling or a group of people conversing, someone talking to me or trying to get my attention, and suddenly I can't reliably hit the paper beyond 10 yards. Add people moving around behind my target, people moving suddenly or erratically, yelling, pushing each other (or me) and it's easy for me to see how the NYPD incident happened without any ill intent on the part of the responding officers (or the mayor, LOL).

If police officers 'lose it' amidst threatening situations surely the same would happen to anyone, including a teacher or a bystander who happened to be carrying a handgun and decided to play Hero. The difference is that the teacher or the random bystander who decided to shoot the 'bad guy' would be sued or jailed if they accidentally hit an innocent person, or even if they damaged property. Sometimes what looks like a gun from a distance isn't, or turns out to be a fake. In those situations, a vigilante who shoots to kill has just committed murder, and will be (and should be) treated appropriately by the criminal justice system.

As I said before, if we armed teachers or principles and expected them to use their firearms in cases of school shootings, even if we forced them to endure training at the level of police officers, in the heat of emergencies they'd often enough make poor decisions and the end result would be more bullets ricocheting through school hallways and most likely more injured people (including children), even if the shooters were killed by a teacher's lucky shot rather than by their own suicide shot. The best way to deal with the problem of school shooting is to intervene in the would-be shooters life well before they start planning their massacre. If we fail at that, the best we can do is prey and clean up the mess as best we can.

I used to work occasionally in the personal protection sector, and the discussion of whether to carry a firearm or not came up a lot at training seminars I attended. The liabilities involved in using or even just drawing a firearm during a conflict can be huge, and I never once carried when protecting someone in a professional capacity. It never seemed worth it, and neither I nor my clients ever regretted my decisions on that front.

Quote
...the element of surprise goes after the first shot. After that, a mass shooting spree is unlikely with teachers all over armed to the teeth.

Even though guns are loud, there are a lot of things that can make similar sounds in buildings, and the gunshot sounds can be muffled or distorted so that those far away can't recognize them for what they are. Even if one does recognize a gunshot (or series of them) for what they are, no one in their right mind would storm the room where the shooting is happening. Those sorts of entrances only work in the movies. In the real world they result in the defender getting shot and perhaps killed outright, giving the shooter access to their gun and ammunition despite their best intentions otherwise.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 03:09:21 am by Eric »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: School killings
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2012, 03:54:10 am »
I seriously doubt that hormonally influenced  teenagers would have the foresight to use silencers. Besides, they want to make the biggest splash possible, so they are hardly going to be silent while shooting.

Ultimately, it's a question of  amount of firepower. If lots of teachers are armed, there's no way that the one or two teenagers wouldn't very quickly be pinned down in a small area, unable to carry on their killing spree until the police arrived.

Basically, if school teachers were armed, killer-happy teenagers would simply search for other areas which had anti-gun laws. The prime attraction of shooting in schools is that they are vulnerable due to not being allowed to have guns.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: School killings
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2012, 06:02:14 am »
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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: School killings
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2012, 06:21:19 am »
Hmm, maybe...
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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: School killings
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2012, 06:43:46 am »
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I seriously doubt that hormonally influenced  teenagers would have the foresight to use silencers...

I never assumed they would. Silenced or even repressed firearms are nearly impossible to distinguish from background noise in public places. I was referring to non-silenced firearms or non-repressed rifles. Even the 'normal' bang of a firearm can be mistaken for other things inside buildings due to muffling and distortion. Same is even true outdoors, particularly in areas where there are rocks, thick forest or lots of topography (hills, valleys, cliffs, etc.)

Quote

Ultimately, it's a question of  amount of firepower. If lots of teachers are armed, there's no way that the one or two teenagers wouldn't very quickly be pinned down in a small area, unable to carry on their killing spree until the police arrived.

Spoken like someone whose 'expertise' in firearm combatives stems entirely from watching movies, TV and the occasional dramatic re-enactment. The point I'm trying to make is that no amount of training will give teachers the skills and confidence in firearm combat to 'pin down' an armed opponent while still remaining competent enough as educators to do their teaching job (setting aside, for the moment, the completely legitimate question of whether they are competent enough to do their teaching job). That level of skill is seen in SWAT units, military special forces and some paramilitary organizations; even most police officers fall short on this. Part of the skill here involves proficiency in working with the firearm(s) they're carrying, the other part involves dedicated training on how to work with a team of similarly trained people to carry out a goal (i.e. clear a room or a hallway or distract and attack a perpetrator). It takes years of dedicated, fierce training to develop these skills. Teachers and principles, no matter how heavily armed, will not attain that level of skill and confidence and can't remotely be expected to competently wield firearms as a defensive measure against school shootings.

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Basically, if school teachers were armed, killer-happy teenagers would simply search for other areas which had anti-gun laws. The prime attraction of shooting in schools is that they are vulnerable due to not being allowed to have guns.

LOL. All school shootings I'm aware of, and mass killings more generally, take place because the shooter was familiar with the terrain and had particular targets picked out. Maybe a particular teacher or student, a particular staff member, a particular supervisor (as in some workplace shootings) or coworker. I challenge you to cite evidence that firearm laws drive the targeting decisions of mass shooters.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: School killings
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2012, 06:58:22 am »
This is so childish. Obviously, since hormonally-challenged teenagers willing to kill do have some sense of survival, they will inevitably target those areas where other people carrying guns are much less likely to be present. This is simple logic.

As regards my own experience, I actually spent many, many years shooting on shooting-ranges at school or thereafter, plus sometimes firing  12-bore shotguns when on farms. The only reason I haven't shot outside those occasions is because of the UK's absurd draconian anti-gun laws. My brother in Kenya, fortunately, had more opportunity to shoot over there, as they are so sick of criminals in that country, that they want the latter dead as soon as possible.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 04:58:24 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: School killings
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2012, 06:59:17 am »
Hiring 3-4 heavily armed veterans for each school should be a good deterrent.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: School killings
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2012, 07:29:34 am »
Hiring 3-4 heavily armed veterans for each school should be a good deterrent.

LOL
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Offline raw-al

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Re: School killings
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2012, 07:29:59 am »
Cheers
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Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: School killings
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2012, 08:05:31 am »
I teach high school and if I heard gun shots and knew they were gun shots I would run for the closest of the many exits in the school and tell my students to do the same.

If I was armed with a handgun...I would run to the closest exit and wait for police.

If I was armed with a handgun and bullet-proof vest...I would run...

If 10 other teachers were armed with vests....I would run...

If every other teacher was armed with a machine gun with vests I would run...

If I had a minianture one-man tank in my  classroom then I would probably try and take out the shooter.

Without very extensive combat training and back-up I am running. If I was armed and did have elementary aged kids I suppose I would lock myself down with the kids and attempt to barricade the door but if there is an exit nearby I might tell the kids to use the run strategy as well.

Again, how many  civilians have even taken a shot at a shooter during a mass killing spree?

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: School killings
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2012, 08:19:06 am »
Is this reporter for real?

More believable than the lone gunman hypothesis being trotted out by the mass media.

Again, how many  civilians have even taken a shot at a shooter during a mass killing spree?

Here is grandpa foiling a hold up.

How to stop a massacre (PG-13 edition with improved sound effects)
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Offline Projectile Vomit

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Re: School killings
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2012, 08:26:51 am »
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I teach high school and if I heard gun shots and knew they were gun shots I would run for the closest of the many exits in the school and tell my students to do the same...

I would too.

Unfortunately views like Geoff's (handle: TylerDurden) are far too common, fueled by goofball 'one-man-army' movies like Batman, Die Hard, etc. Real life isn't like that. Combat scenarios don't unfold like that. School shootings don't unfold like that.

But far too many people believe they do, or can, because they see that theme repeated over and over in the media, on television, in movies, like a militaristic mantra. These media representations give combat-illiterate people gravely unrealistic ideas of what untrained civilians are capable of when concealing a glock under their jacket. These media representations also work wonders for firearm sales, despite the fact that most people who own firearms aren't competent enough to safely defend themselves with them.

Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: School killings
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2012, 08:52:50 am »
I found this article that goes into some detail of what I was looking for. Apparently there was one incident in 1982 that a civilian killed an assailant but this was after the assailant had already fled on his bicycle(lol). Another incident in 2002 with fuzzy details - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

Here is the article

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation

Also in this article, a couple of really bad incidents for civilians who tried to play hero.

Also, with that rambo gramps in the internet cafe. It looked like he missed the assailant from around 10 feet(just read he did hit them. Apparently one bullet wasn't enough). Also the assailant, with his gun, did not even return fire. I think I read somewhere that the assailant might not have had a real gun or bullets. Makes sense since his buddy had a bat, and he didn't even think to return fire. This could have easily ended very badly for gramps and the other patrons.

Offline LePatron7

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Re: School killings
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2012, 08:59:33 am »
I definitely don't think arming teachers is the best idea, even if they're given training.

I think the solution rests with some new gun laws. For example no clips holding more than 10 bullets. Who needs 30 bullets in their clip any way? No automatic weapons, assault weapons, etc.

I think also that part of the solution if reforming mental health. Sane people don't typically go commit mass shootings. If mental health treatment is changed to stuff that really treats the illness, like niacin, SCD, RPD, etc. We'd likely see a changing of how other illnesses are treated as well.
Disclaimer: I was told I was misdiagnosed over 10 years ago, and I haven't taken any medication in over a decade.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: School killings
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2012, 09:24:51 am »
Well, the academic world is riddled with 10th rate marxists. "Liberal" is just a ridiculously nice term  used to describe people who formerly were called  very "nasty" names like "marxist", "communist" etc.
Yeah, I actually like your "libtard" term (and neoconman). It has a humorous element and is not just nasty, like Commie and whatnot.
 
Quote
I am sure that any "Liberal" teachers would have the cowardice necessary to protest against bearing any arms to defend their school-children, so that they could ensure that lots more schoolchildren could be killed. Heck, if they had a tiny amount of self-respect, such Libtard teachers might even throw themselves forward so that the relevant gunmen could execute them/put them down out of kindness.
It seems the teachers in this case, whether they were libtards or not, gave their lives to try to defend the children. That seems much more courageous than cowardly. I don't know whether they would have shot the shooter, but they didn't seem to be lacking in the courage department.

I did hear that in Israel (on National Public Radio, of all places), arming and training a couple teachers in each school did help deter terror attacks. I don't know whether it's true or not.

That said, I do think that more gun-owners should be taught not only about shooting at firing-ranges, but also about safe rules re hunting wild game etc. That teaches not only respect but also self-respect.
I agree with you there. Around here, one thing that some dingbat gun owners do is shoot up road signs, which sometimes makes them hard to read. Not too helpful. And my aunt was shot by a neighbor kid's BB gun through the kitchen window. Not too swift. Luckily she only suffered a minor injury, but if people are going to use firearms, they should be thoroughly trained and taught responsibility. When I was taught to use a BB gun in Boy Scouts I took it very seriously and was turned off by how most of the other Scouts were goofing around with them and had to be brought into line by the scout leaders. Come to think of it, I scored better on the target than most of those jackass kids.

The US has a reputation for talking much bigger than the walk. For all the bluster and blunder of this spokesman (Alex Jones) who is duplicated all over your country, talks a big story, but examine the facts.

The US has more guns per capita arguable than citizens anywhere else in the world and yet they have the highest rate of government detainees (0.743%) of any country in the world, including The Soviet Union at it's worst of excesses.
Hmmm, that seems like a good point. If firearms are so good at deterring crime, why does the most heavily armed nation in the world have one of the highest crime rates?

If Americans have by far the most guns then why hasn't one mass killer been killed by a civilian? Has any mass shooter even been shot at? Gun nuts keep insisting that more guns would have stopped these massacres or at least reduced the number of killings. What the gun nuts never point out are all the times that concealed carriers have been at the scene and simply fled or hid like everyone else and waited for the cops and never reported to anyone that they had a gun. This silent evidence will never be recorded.
Food for thought. I did hear about one guy who had a pistol at a mass shooting, and the teen shooter shot him 6 times with an AK47.

I haven't investigated the topic that much, so I'm keeping an open mind re: solutions. One thing that gets pointed out a lot is that the USA actually has a declining murder rate, so some folks write off these slaughters as aberrations that can be ignored--but I realized that the problem with these mass killings is not the total number of annual murders in the US, it's the terror and trauma that they cause. These are forms of domestic terrorism.

I definitely don't think arming teachers is the best idea, even if they're given training.

I think the solution rests with some new gun laws. For example no clips holding more than 10 bullets. Who needs 30 bullets in their clip any way? No automatic weapons, assault weapons, etc.
Even some Republicans have been supporting that. I suspect that some sort of legislation along those lines may get enacted. I guess we'll see whether it helps at all.
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Offline wodgina

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Re: School killings
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2012, 12:10:21 pm »
I found this article that goes into some detail of what I was looking for. Apparently there was one incident in 1982 that a civilian killed an assailant but this was after the assailant had already fled on his bicycle(lol). Another incident in 2002 with fuzzy details - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

Here is the article

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/09/mass-shootings-investigation

Also in this article, a couple of really bad incidents for civilians who tried to play hero.

Also, with that rambo gramps in the internet cafe. It looked like he missed the assailant from around 10 feet(just read he did hit them. Apparently one bullet wasn't enough). Also the assailant, with his gun, did not even return fire. I think I read somewhere that the assailant might not have had a real gun or bullets. Makes sense since his buddy had a bat, and he didn't even think to return fire. This could have easily ended very badly for gramps and the other patrons.

That Gramps was more dangerous than the robbers (someone could of got killed ha ha)

It now has come out the Mum was a bit of a bitch and also home schooled him. Dad had divorced mum.

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Offline TylerDurden

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Re: School killings
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2012, 05:18:17 pm »
I would too.

Unfortunately views like Geoff's (handle: TylerDurden) are far too common, fueled by goofball 'one-man-army' movies like Batman, Die Hard, etc. Real life isn't like that. Combat scenarios don't unfold like that. School shootings don't unfold like that.
  I only chose my handle at the time  because TD had made one quotation about reverting to palaeo-like times and was an anarchist like me. And I personally loathe mainstream Hollywood movies like Die Hard, and have had plenty of training with guns in real life. All this talk about shooting is anyway absurd as in most RL situations involving guns, mere brandishing of a  (non-loaded) weapon would be enough to deter most people most of the time, and shooting only used as a last resort.

My own concerns re this are that police in the UK are pretty inept due partially, no doubt, to most of them not carrying weapons. The few who do carry are unsurprisingly not trained enough in guns so that they commit far more mistakes in genuinely dangerous situations(often the fools get told by their superiors to shoot to kill without thinking, like in the Menezes disaster).

The Austrian police are amazing, by contrast. They all have to carry pistols  by law, but hardly ever need to take them out. Simply wearing them openly in a holster is enough to give them an air of authority so that they very rarely have to use them.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 05:39:04 pm by TylerDurden »
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: School killings
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2012, 10:46:41 pm »


The Austrian police are amazing, by contrast. They all have to carry pistols  by law, but hardly ever need to take them out. Simply wearing them openly in a holster is enough to give them an air of authority so that they very rarely have to use them.

Even the police in the US very rarely use their guns.

Also, it's Austria.  There's a much better welfare system there than in the US, so people aren't desperate for money all the time.  Desperate people do desperate things.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: School killings
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2012, 02:37:27 am »
Err, robbery is a very popular crime in Austria.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: School killings
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2012, 04:11:22 am »
More believable than the lone gunman hypothesis being trotted out by the mass media.

Here is grandpa foiling a hold up.

How to stop a massacre (PG-13 edition with improved sound effects)
I think gramps was a danger to everyone. I wonder where all the stray bullets went.

Notice that he didn't connect with any of those shots, despite being very close shots. The burglars got away with no apparent wounds. That means all those bullets ricocheted around posing a threat of unintended consequences.

A friend of mine's father had a gas station. I remember asking his when I was a teenager, if he had a gun to protect himself from thieves. He said that money is not that important that he would murder or risk hitting a bystander. Even the Police advise against heroism.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: School killings
« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2012, 05:58:13 am »
I seriously doubt that hormonally influenced  teenagers would have the foresight to use silencers. Besides, they want to make the biggest splash possible, so they are hardly going to be silent while shooting.

Ultimately, it's a question of  amount of firepower. If lots of teachers are armed, there's no way that the one or two teenagers wouldn't very quickly be pinned down in a small area, unable to carry on their killing spree until the police arrived.

Basically, if school teachers were armed, killer-happy teenagers would simply search for other areas which had anti-gun laws. The prime attraction of shooting in schools is that they are vulnerable due to not being allowed to have guns.
They do not go looking for other areas where there are anti-gun laws. They go to their own school or close by places. Do you have some examples of kids who have done this in a premeditated way?

The prime attraction of schools is the distorted view these kids have for other kids. In fact they could probably pick off more people in a crowded mall.
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Offline raw-al

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Re: School killings
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2012, 06:10:55 am »
I teach high school and if I heard gun shots and knew they were gun shots I would run for the closest of the many exits in the school and tell my students to do the same.

If I was armed with a handgun...I would run to the closest exit and wait for police.

If I was armed with a handgun and bullet-proof vest...I would run...

If 10 other teachers were armed with vests....I would run...

If every other teacher was armed with a machine gun with vests I would run...

If I had a minianture one-man tank in my  classroom then I would probably try and take out the shooter.

Without very extensive combat training and back-up I am running. If I was armed and did have elementary aged kids I suppose I would lock myself down with the kids and attempt to barricade the door but if there is an exit nearby I might tell the kids to use the run strategy as well.

Again, how many  civilians have even taken a shot at a shooter during a mass killing spree?
Spot on. Pick your battles.

Maybe you're on to something though, just forget the guns/training, issue a miniature one-man tank for every classroom. : )
Cheers
Al

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: School killings
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2012, 06:12:41 am »
Obvious answer:- schools are the most obvious  areas one thinks of when one tries to think of areas which have anti-gun-laws. Picking off more people in a crowded mall would not be so  much fun - more fun would be to shoot utterly defenceless pre-school children in schools.
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Offline Paleo Donk

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Re: School killings
« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2012, 12:25:24 pm »
The argument for killing in gun-free zones is interesting at first but what I think is important to consider is the actual fact whether or not normal law-abiding citizens pay attention to these laws. It might actually be in fact the opposite of what we would first think- that gun-free zones actually have more concealed carriers since the concealed carriers supposedly know that they are more at 'risk'.

I would be really interested in a poll of concealed carriers and how often they actually follow the laws of gun-free zones. I'd be surprised if there was any hard data collected on this but I don't think we can just assume that gun-free zones = no guns.

Just a few weeks ago in the oregon mall shooting a concealed carrier was amidst the gunfire in a gun-free zone, so we know this sort of thing does indeed happen. But how often?

Offline Brad462

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Re: School killings
« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2012, 04:50:36 pm »
I read that the shooter was a vegan.  Maybe instead of blaming guns we should blame fruit for this tragedy.
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