Author Topic: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?  (Read 10855 times)

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Offline Iguana

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Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« on: April 27, 2013, 03:38:48 pm »
An interesting article

The dietitian author should read GCB because he would find answers to all his points.

By the way, what's wrong with legumes and why wouldn't they be paleo? We haven't found that they trigger any problem.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2013, 04:41:11 pm »
An interesting article

The dietitian author should read GCB because he would find answers to all his points.

By the way, what's wrong with legumes and why wouldn't they be paleo? We haven't found that they trigger any problem.
"Legumes" in English  just means "beans", not vegetables as in French. Beans are high in antinutrients, make one fart a lot and don't digest very well, and were not eaten in palaeo times to any real extent. Beans also usually have to be cooked in order to be eaten safely, like grains.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2013, 05:28:12 pm »
How about peanuts freshly harvested?  The farm folk eat that raw at times, but in limited quantity.
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2013, 07:34:32 pm »
"Legumes" in English  just means "beans", not vegetables as in French. Beans are high in antinutrients, make one fart a lot and don't digest very well, and were not eaten in palaeo times to any real extent. Beans also usually have to be cooked in order to be eaten safely, like grains.

Yes, I’m aware of “legumes” meaning “légumineuses” in French. We  normally don’t eat beans since they are not good raw, but raw peanuts are fine while chickpeas and lentils can be eaten raw after soaking during about 48 hours.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2013, 09:22:13 pm »
An interesting article

The dietitian author should read GCB because he would find answers to all his points.



The author hasn't done his research. He says we've been eating grains for 10,000 years.  However, there are many isolated human populations that never ate grains, even today.  Also, large-scale grain consumption didn't start in most places until about 2-3,000 years ago. 

Oh well.  He's just one more person who hasn't done his research, who is trying to seem like he's intelligent.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2013, 10:38:10 pm »
I will experiment with those lentils, Iguana.
There are lentils in the Indian grocery.
When you soak lentils for 48 hours they should sprout then?
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Offline Iguana

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2013, 01:54:14 am »
If I remember, it takes more than 48 h for them to sprout, maybe 3 or 4 days. But  I've been told most seeds can sprout even if they've been heated at about 50° C or perhaps a bit more: sprouting and then fully growing to give a normal plant would be different matters. 
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Johan August

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2013, 03:52:42 am »
When I sprouted lentils I would soak them overnight then drain them and rinse them thoroughly. I would then put them in a dark cupboard and subsequently rinse and drain them twice a day. I found them very easy and quick to sprout. In a hot climate it would perhaps be best to rinse the sprouts  more often until they are ready. They become tough if allowed to sprout too long; the tails should not be allowed to grow longer than the sprout itself. Rinsing not only assists growth with irrigation but helps to remove some of the harmful phytate.

However I have stopped using any legumes. The amount of academic papers, forty or more, that Professor Cordain lists in his book "The Paleo Answer"  and his evidence for the harmful nature of legumes, including peanuts, fully persuaded me to stop eating them sprouted or cooked. I can't understand Iguana writing that there is no evidence against them without explaining his reasons for treating the evidence that is out there as non-existent.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2013, 04:44:46 am »
I can't understand Iguana writing that there is no evidence against them without explaining his reasons for treating the evidence that is out there as non-existent.

I didn’t say exactly that there’s no evidence against legumes, I wrote: “We haven't found that they trigger any problem” — unlike with dairy, wheat, corn, and to a lesser extend with other cereal grains. That has been during 45 years of instinctive raw paleo nutrition experience with several hundred people and a lot of meticulous experimentations on animals which clearly showed the troubles induced by wheat and dairy, decades before Cordain wrote about it.

Perhaps legumes should be eaten in larger quantities than the occasional small amount we eat to trigger noticeable troubles? Does Cordain base his evidence on theoretical considerations or on some practical experiments? If he experimented, did he make sure the seeds were raw, not hot dried?

As a matter of fact I didn’t eat any for at least a couple of years, except peanuts.
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2013, 10:39:06 am »
Peanuts are massively goitrogenic, which means they're very bad for the thyroid.

In addition, they often contain aflatoxin, a type of mold, which has a severe tendency to cause cancer.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2013, 04:49:47 pm »
Massively goitrogenic?
http://www.womentowomen.com/hypothyroidism/goitrogenicfoods-thyroidhealth.aspx
Quote
My patients with hypothyroidism sometimes ask about stories they’ve heard in the news or seen on-line about the effects of certain foods on their thyroid health. Soy is their most common concern, but broccoli, peanuts, strawberries, kale, and other vegetables are also on this list. The message my patients hear, unfortunately, is that if you have any sort of thyroid dysfunction, you shouldn’t consume these foods — ever. And that’s a shame, because this all-or-nothing approach means that women with thyroid problems remove healthy, nutritious foods from their diet when they really don’t have to.
(…)
Certain “potentially goitrogenic” compounds are also present in small amounts in peanuts, pine nuts, millet, peaches, strawberries, spinach, and cassava root, among others. I tell my patients who are concerned about these foods that unless they’re consuming them in high amounts on a continual basis, they’re not likely to have undue impact on their thyroid health, because the possible goitrogens are present in such minute quantities.
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitrogen
Quote
Goitrogenic foods

Certain raw foods (cooking partially inactivates the goitrogens, except in the cases of soy and millet[6]) have been identified as lightly goitrogenic. These foods include:

    Cassava and Cabbage both due to the foods containing thiocyanate[7]
    Soybeans (and soybean products such as tofu, soybean oil, soy flour, soy lecithin)
        Other foods containing genistein have been implicated as interfering with thyroid peroxidase in laboratory rats.[8]
    Pine nuts
    Peanuts
    Millet
    Strawberries
    Pears
    Peaches
    Spinach
    Bamboo shoots
    Sweet Potatoes
    Vegetables in the genus Brassica [9]
        Bok choy
        Broccoli
        Broccolini (Asparations)
        Brussels sprouts
        Cabbage
        Canola
        Cauliflower
        Chinese cabbage
        Choy sum
        Collard greens
        Horseradish
        Kai-lan (Chinese broccoli)
        Kale
        Kohlrabi
        Mizuna
        Mustard greens
        Radishes
        Rapeseed (yu choy)
        Rapini
        Rutabagas (swedes)
        Tatsoi
        Turnips

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aflatoxin
Quote
Aflatoxin-producing members of Aspergillus are common and widespread in nature. They can colonize and contaminate grain before harvest or during storage. Host crops are particularly susceptible to infection by Aspergillus following prolonged exposure to a high-humidity environment, or damage from stressful conditions such as drought, a condition that lowers the barrier to entry.

The native habitat of Aspergillus is in soil, decaying vegetation, hay, and grains undergoing microbiological deterioration, and it invades all types of organic substrates whenever conditions are favorable for its growth. Favorable conditions include high moisture content (at least 7%) and high temperature.

Aflatoxin are found in Aflatoxin transformation products are sometimes found in eggs, milk products and meat when animals are fed contaminated grains.[13]
The presence of aflatoxins in raw peanuts is easily detected by an awful taste, so you spit it. Eat raw unseasoned peanuts in the proper amount you need following your instinct and there’s no problem at all, as always.

Awareness about goitrogenic compounds and aflatoxins was unavailable in the Paleolithic, but our paleo-ancestors nevertheless had a much better health than modern people confused with all our dietitians pretentious analytic knowledge. 

Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2013, 08:19:58 pm »
If you don't warn people about peanuts, sooner or later, someone who is new to the Paleo diet will decide to eat a pound a day of peanuts for a year, or some other very large amount for a long time, and they will completely screw up their thyroid. 

Iguana, you have to realize that not everyone here is going to be instincto. I agree, eating mono-style to a taste change is very useful, but not everyone is ready for that in the beginning.

Offline Johan August

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2013, 11:26:50 pm »
I didn’t say exactly that there’s no evidence against legumes, I wrote: “We haven't found that they trigger any problem” — unlike with dairy, wheat, corn, and to a lesser extend with other cereal grains. That has been during 45 years of instinctive raw paleo nutrition experience with several hundred people and a lot of meticulous experimentations on animals which clearly showed the troubles induced by wheat and dairy, decades before Cordain wrote about it.

Perhaps legumes should be eaten in larger quantities than the occasional small amount we eat to trigger noticeable troubles? Does Cordain base his evidence on theoretical considerations or on some practical experiments? If he experimented, did he make sure the seeds were raw, not hot dried?

As a matter of fact I didn’t eat any for at least a couple of years, except peanuts.

Many of the 65 academic articles reported on mainline experimentation. Of course I cannot answer you about what they did any more than I can judge the validity of the studies that your movement has conducted. However I see no reason to believe that a significant portion of these academic studies are misleading.

As far as quantity or volume of consumption is concerned I am sure that the occasional peanut or bean meal is unlikely  to be noteworthy either way. Personally I am concerned to know about the effect of foods that I mainly eat. I would not make any legume an habitual part of my diet, but I would not refuse to eat them if invited out to dinner.

Offline Iguana

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2013, 03:49:47 am »
Thanks for you honest answer, Johan.

If you don't warn people about peanuts, sooner or later, someone who is new to the Paleo diet will decide to eat a pound a day of peanuts for a year, or some other very large amount for a long time, and they will completely screw up their thyroid. 

Deciding to eat everyday for a year a pound of any food would be one of the most stupid decision I've ever heard of!   ;D ;)
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2013, 07:23:59 am »
Do raw peanuts taste good at all? -\

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2013, 09:00:12 am »
Do raw peanuts taste good at all? -\

Yes.  Many people, including me, like them.

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2013, 09:00:58 am »
Thanks for you honest answer, Johan.

Deciding to eat everyday for a year a pound of any food would be one of the most stupid decision I've ever heard of!   ;D ;)

Humans raised in Western cultures do stupid things when it comes to food, even when they are trying to improve their diet.

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2013, 12:57:59 pm »
Yes.  Many people, including me, like them.

Do you eat them sprouted or soaked or what?

Offline Iguana

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2013, 04:11:28 pm »
I usually eat them non soaked but when they are not so fresh they are better soaked, becoming like fresh again.

The problem I have with soaking is that I'm lazy to do it and care about it in the way Johan explained, and even if I nevertheless put something to soak, I don't know if I'll eat it the next days.  I often don't eat it till it gets bad (because I have better foods such as eggs, shellfish or meat) and thus I have to throw it away!

 :D
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 02:43:10 pm by TylerDurden »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline Joy2012

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2013, 12:21:39 pm »
CK and Iguana, thanks.

I think I will soak them and dehydrate them in my dehydrator just like I do with seeds/nuts and see how they taste.  I hope they will taste like roasted peanuts.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 02:42:30 pm by TylerDurden »

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2013, 07:14:22 am »
By the way, what's wrong with legumes and why wouldn't they be paleo? We haven't found that they trigger any problem.
It's an interesting question, Iguana. We discussed this topic some before here - http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/omnivorous-raw-paleo/raw-yam/msg67355/#msg67355

There has been disagreement on legumes from the early days of the "Paleo" movement. Boyd Eaton considered them Paleo but Loren Cordain and Ray Audette put them on prohibited lists in their books. Ray said they were not Paleo because they aren't edible raw (requiring "nothing but a sharp stick"), but he was apparently unaware that some are edible raw. Cordain provided a number of reasons and research, some of which you can find here: http://www.beyondveg.com/cordain-l/grains-leg/grains-legumes-1a.shtml. More recently, other Paleo/Primal-type diet advocates like Mark Sisson and Denise Minger gave legumes a pass as probably OK foods (for those who can tolerate them) of lesser quality than meats and veg.

Does anyone here think that tamarind (a legume fruit edible raw) or jicama (a legume tuber edible raw) or garden-fresh raw sugar snap pea pods (my guess is that their toxin content was reduced by selection over many years, though that's also true of almonds and other foods widely considered "Paleo") are not raw Paleo? What about raw (heated to 100°F) natto (raw fermented soybeans http://www.culturesforhealth.com/how-to-make-natto)? I rarely eat these foods myself and I'm not advocating anything, just curious.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 07:27:25 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2013, 02:54:00 am »
Phil, thanks a lot for reminding us that discussion with your very comprehensive and interesting post about what we are talking again...  I had forgotten it!  ??? But it's often the case here that we talk again about what had been lengthily discussed before, having forgotten the previous discussion!

Yes, raw sugar snap pea pods are one of my favorite veggies and I like tamarind very much. I had some wild tamarind in Sri lanka as well, and I'm not alone to be found of those foods!

I don't know about natto but if it's soybeans, then no, we "instinctos" normally don't eat soy.

Didn't take the time to have a look at your Beyondveg link yet - I don't like that website very much.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 03:32:18 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2013, 06:28:03 am »
I often forget things too. :D I find your open-minded questions and experiences re: legumes like tamarinds and sugar snap peas interesting. Thanks for sharing, Iguana.

I recall reading a report that tamarinds, which are indigenous to Africa, are even one of the favorite foods of wild African chimps. I've only seen a single Paleo dieter claim that tamarinds aren't Paleo (and even he said he was interested by the info I provided on tamarinds), despite the frequent claims that all legumes are verboten. Perhaps what most anti-legume Paleos really mean is that they consider legume seeds, or legume seeds that are typically cooked, are not Paleo?

Quote
I don't know about natto but if it's soybeans, then no, we "instinctos" normally don't eat soy.
Not even raw fermented soy? Why not? I don't eat it either, but I'm curious about the reasoning.

Quote
Didn't take the time to have a look at your Beyondveg link yet - I don't like that website very much.
I know that site is not popular with rawists because of the anti-raw propaganda, but it does contain a lot of outside sources on other stuff too, not just their own opinions. In this case it's an article by Dr. Cordain, rather than BeyondVeg. Of course, no matter how bad or good the publisher of the info, if the issue is very important to you, then seeking out more direct and up-to-date info from Dr. Cordain himself may be wise, in case BeyondVeg made an error in publishing it or Dr. Cordain has changed his views, found new research, etc.

I see the link was broken by a sentence period. Here's the correct link:

http://www.beyondveg.com/cordain-l/grains-leg/grains-legumes-1a.shtml

Another legume edible raw is carob (pods aka "fruit"):
Whole Raw Carob Fruit - Nature's Most Delicious Candy Grown on a TreeI found this and some other videos by this raw vegan to be quite informative (except for the anti-fat and anti-meat propaganda). He also talks in this vid about cacao fruit pulp that is also edible raw.

I generally find raw vegan/Paleo/Instincto foodists to be more knowledgeable than Paleo coctivores (cooked foodists) about plant foods that are edible raw. Denise Minger is a good example. I don't think she calls herself Paleo, but she has spoken at the Ancestral Health Symposium and she is more truly Paleo, in my book, than most Paleo dieters.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 07:24:20 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Iguana

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2013, 01:53:50 pm »
I recall reading a report that tamarinds, which are indigenous to Africa, are even one of the favorite foods of wild African chimps.
Thanks for this info: it’s also one of my favorite food!

Quote
Not even raw fermented soy? Why not? I don't eat it either, but I'm curious about the reasoning.
It’s not a reasoning… it’s that I don’t really know why… But if I remember from my “mostly cooked” days, soy has a bad taste and I never liked it in any form. I never saw it on the table when invited at “instincto” friends places, nor at any gathering and I’ve never seen any instincto eating soy. I have some kind of (perhaps preconceived) idea that soy is a food for vegans…  ;)
 
Quote
I know that site is not popular with rawists because of the anti-raw propaganda, but it does contain a lot of outside sources on other stuff too, not just their own opinions. In this case it's an article by Dr. Cordain, rather than BeyondVeg. Of course, no matter how bad or good the publisher of the info, if the issue is very important to you, then seeking out more direct and up-to-date info from Dr. Cordain himself may be wise, in case BeyondVeg made an error in publishing it or Dr. Cordain has changed his views, found new research, etc. I see the link was broken by a sentence period. Here's the correct link:

http://www.beyondveg.com/cordain-l/grains-leg/grains-legumes-1a.shtml
Just had a very quick look at this article. Perhaps I had already read it years ago.

Quote
Another legume edible raw is carob (pods aka "fruit"):
Whole Raw Carob Fruit - Nature's Most Delicious Candy Grown on a TreeI found this and some other videos by this raw vegan to be quite informative (except for the anti-fat and anti-meat propaganda). He also talks in this vid about cacao fruit pulp that is also edible raw.
Yeah, carob is a good food. There is plenty in the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal), often fallen on the ground under the trees with none caring to gather it except us, raw paleo dieters! :)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 03:04:18 pm by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Is the Paleo Diet Healthy?
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2013, 09:35:29 am »

I know that site is not popular with rawists because of the anti-raw propaganda, but it does contain a lot of outside sources on other stuff too, not just their own opinions.

Sadly, not only is the author of the site intellectually dishonest, he is often not all that well-researched on many topics, compared to a lot of other people.  Of course, the second is a result of the first. 

Actually, he probably has done the research, but only links to studies that agree with his anti-raw stance.

I really can't abide intellectual dishonesty.  I have a very strong aversion.

 

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