Author Topic: Kidney Stones  (Read 9385 times)

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Offline paper_clips43

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Kidney Stones
« on: June 20, 2013, 01:11:15 am »
I have recently developed some large kidney stones. I passed a stone 3 years ago before I was into eating healthy and now I have been raw paleo for the past year and have developed even larger stones. I have limited my raw meat consumption to 4 ounces or less and that seemed to help although left me very hungry. Then when I had 4 ounces lamb with 4 ounces lamb fat for breakfast yesterday I had the worst pain ever. I gently threw up my meal about 10 minutes later and laid hunched over in excruciating pain for about 45 minutes until it completely subsided and left my insides feeling a little tender. It seems even a little bit of raw animal food is making it worse although now I have no idea how to eat. Does anyone have any advice?

I am taking chanca piedra tea now per advice from a friend. I am drinking plenty of water. I had to resort to eating some cooked rice because I had no idea what else to eat. Most fruits aggravate stones and all animal foods do as well. I can't stand most plant foods and most of them are not good for kidney stones as well.
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Offline van

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 01:17:38 am »
maybe GS will chime in??  or you could write to him.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 06:27:36 am »
Suspect a nutritional deficiency

Supplement with an organic magnesium source such as malunggay capsules or malunggay powdered tea. Drink the same dosage as lactating mothers. This may prevent kidney future kidney stone formation if you are magnesium deficient.

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 07:20:35 am »
Have you done any of your own research on this yet?

Quote
I was VLC for several years, and LC/paleo for 2 years before that. My cholesterol markers were initially fine eating that way, but by the fourth year they were going through the roof. Peter at Hyperlipid said high LDL was nothing to worry about, while at that same time Kurt Harris was writing that "the best cholesterol is one left unchecked" or something like that.

So I let it go for as long as I could. Until I got 3 kidney stones in a row. Then I realized I had let these LC gurus think for me for way too long. It was time to do MY OWN research, not rely on theirs.

And what I found was that they had been twisting, convoluting and misinterpreting the facts, and sometimes just plain omitting stuff that didn't agree with their biases.

gunther gatherer
December 31, 2012 4:51 AM
http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2012/12/jimkkkins-saga-of-jimmy-moore-and-david.html
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline paper_clips43

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2013, 12:10:01 am »
@GS
I read a post from you a while back that mentioned Mulunggay for lactating mothers. I got a bottle for my sister who at the time was having troubles with lactation. I ordered a bottle for myself now. I can let you know how it works. Thank you for the advice. I had no idea it was full of magnesium.

@PaleoPhil
When I was closer to the Aajonus way of eating I had no problem with kidney stones. It was during this last winter that I experimented with RVLC and at first felt fine. Until only the 6th day when I got a bump under my eye which I since learned is related to kidneys. I definitely believe that RVLC quickly accelerated my stone formation. RVLC is not for me.

I just hope I have not ruined my body's ability to digest raw meat. I was vegan yesterday and felt fine regarding kidney area. Although I already crave meat. Anyone have any advice on that subject? Should I be vegan for a while? Should I eat lightly cooked meat or maybe only white meat? Organi meats I learned have the highest Purins in it which are most likely the culprit for my stone formation. I have eaten a lot of organs this year and feel healthy besides the kidney stones.
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Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 08:45:26 am »
Hi Paper Clips, It's interesting how similar your story is to Gunther Gatherer's. It's also interesting that our own VLCer Lex Rooker also developed kidney stones. I suspect that you and Gunter are right that VLC can raise the risk of stone formation in at least some people and perhaps especially if certain measures are not taken to offset the risk. What do you think of his advice to do your own research rather than just rely on the opinions of others? Have you done any research on the topic? If so, did you learn any interesting things you'd like to share?
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2013, 10:09:42 am »
These sound like uric acid stones, not calcium stones. I say that because uric acid stones are fairly common in low-carbers. Drinking more water and eating watery fruit is a good way to deal with those. There may be some specific herbs and fruits that are especially good for them.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2013, 10:15:44 am »
If these are uric acid stones you may be eating too much protein for your needs.
Lower the protein and increase fat and carbs and hydration.
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2013, 11:22:14 am »
If these are uric acid stones you may be eating too much protein for your needs.
Lower the protein and increase fat and carbs and hydration.


Indeed. I forgot to mention about eating more fat and less protein.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 07:21:17 pm »
While uric acid stones are more common among VLCers, they are also at higher risk of calcium oxalate stones, according to some sources:
Quote
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-iv-kidney-stones/

Just over half of ketogenic diet kidney stones are composed of uric acid and just under half of calcium oxalate mixed with calcium phosphate or uric acid. Among the general public, about 85% of stones are calcium oxalate mixes and about 10% are uric acid.  So, roughly speaking, uric acid kidney stones are 500-fold more frequent on the ketogenic diet and calcium oxalate stones are 50-fold more frequent.

Lex's stones were calcium oxalate. Of course, we can't know for sure whether it was his diet that caused them and he mentioned that he was restricting his water intake at the time:
Quote
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/lex's-journal/1000/?action=post;quote=30227;last_msg=109673

My stones are calcium as they show up very nicely on x-rays.  Don't know exact composition as I've never passed one.  My urine had a very high specific gravity at well over 1.05 (as high as my test strips read, normal is 1.01 to 1.03), and highly acidic with a pH of 4.5 to 5.5.  Drinking more water has lessened reduce the both the acidity and specific gravity significantly.  pH now runs 6.0 - 6.5 and SG runs between 1.015 and 1.025.

Lex
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline van

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2013, 10:13:25 pm »
I can add something interesting to this.  I've been vlc for about six or so years now.  As mentioned I've been experimenting with urine therapy...   What urine therapy has shown me is that eating even less than 'normal amounts of protein, my urine is dark and not very 'attractive' especially to drink.  Basically real strong and acidic, and if left sitting will often have sediment. (Yes I could lessen it's color and strength by drinking a whole lot more water, but that isn't something that feels like what my body wants,, would have to be more of a mental regimin)   My thinking is that my kidneys are having to filter all this out all day long.   To taste it tells me that I'm glad it's not in my blood any longer.  I started experimenting by eating very small portions of protein, meat,  maybe three ounces several times a day instead of eating basically the same amount twice per day, and sure enough my urine is very light yellow, and certainly as mild as if eating fruit and veggies.     Again, this is a most recent discovery, but seemingly significant from at least my point of view.    I try to imagine how this could be and come up with a few thoughts.  One is that if you agree with Bruno Comby from the instincto group in France who wrote the book on eating insects, he believes our strongest genetic digestive makeup for digesting protein comes from eating insects.  In other words, as humans we have developed the genetic digestive system for eating insects longer than any other protein.  And if so, insect eaters would eat through out the day, as they find they're bugs,, more like grazing.   Rosedale speaks of the dangers of eating larger protein meals.  That the excess protein not used for repair and maintenance is converted to sugar at the expense of creating an obnoxious byproduct (?).   
    I've also switched to distilled water and tend to believe the theories that excess inorganic mins, especially excess calcium can get left behind in the body.  Most well or mineral waters are full of calcium, mine being no exception.  And try to provide my mineral uptake, from organic mineral food sources like the seaweed.   Lex for some time also took as a supplement one of those dead sea bed deposit mineral powders, I think from Utah which I think is one that is part sea sediment, and part volcanic ash.  So when you think about that, and about how hard the water is in LA, and eating one meal a day as Lex so often does and the resultant information from the Phil's previous post, it does seem to add up to the potential of creating stones.     I wonder what the urine is like from other vlc eaters like Lex who especially eat one meal a day.   I remember while visiting 'Zeroing in on Health' a meat and fat cooked site,  Delfuego a popular contributor,  who's wife supposedly cured her lyme disease with eating only  pemican, wrote where he eats one big pemican meal per day, at night, and will during and afterwards drink upwards of a gallon of water,, exposing how that watching wolves drink water after eating explains his drinking ( or to me seemingly diluting his stomach digestive acids) of so much water.
   From eating smaller meals,  I am enjoying the feeling of never feeling weighed down by a big meal, and the ability to simply go all day long with out resting after eating.   It does feel unnatural to only eat such a small amount when I could obviously put more in my mouth, and does require some inner coaching, but I do also appreciate knowing that if I eat mono meals, the next meal can be something completely different and thus include more variety that way.   

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2013, 10:52:26 pm »
Hmmm.... nice share of experience there, Van.

It jives with this kidney cancer patient I've been helping the past month why I put him on Aajonus' body building meals even if he only has 1 kidney working and the other one is immense. (small meal sets repeated 3x a day)

I'd share that on raw paleo diet, that patient of mine eliminated the strong bad odor and bubbling froth of his pee.

Also from my own experiments, eating one big cooked meat meal at night makes my pee in the morning bubbly frothy.  Reminds me why raw is just so much better.
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Offline paper_clips43

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2013, 05:40:34 am »
Thanks for all the great advice. As soon as I pass the stone I will be sure to let you know what type it was. I am considering getting a X ray. Although I am usually very against these my uncle (A Naturopathic Doctor) is strongly recommending it.

@PaleoPhil
I have done a lot of my own research and I have found that kidney stones have quite a lot of conflicting information. Listening to my intuition though says to eat watermelon and other watery fruits. Although when I eat to much I breakout so I have to be very careful with this. Also I find that if I eat fruit later in the day I feel better as opposed to early in the morning. I feel like VLC is either only for some people or for when the body is in perfect health and most of the detoxing has been accomplished. I hope to find the type of stone I have soon so that I may further research the culprit for its formation.

@CK
Hmm Uric acid stone makes sense because I tried water fasting and I felt kidney pain at the 18 hour mark which hints at it being Uric Acid. I really do not know for sure though. I am taking Chanca Piedra tea as well as a kidney tonic that my uncle (naturopathic doctor) prescribed.

@Van
What do you think about urine therapy for kidney stones? I already use it for acne and it works wonders. I have drank it only when sick and wonder about the uric acid in the urine could potentially exacerbate the stone formation. Or it could have the opposite effect due to a homeopathic way of exposing the body to minute amounts of uric acid. All day I make sure my pee is very light yellow by staying adequately hydrated. Every morning its a deep dark yellow and my ankles are a little soar no matter what I eat. I actually read a post of yours a while back and since then have limited my meat consumption to 4 ounces or less and usually 2-3 times a day. I am feeling now that I should only eat 4 ounces a day once per day and at the end of the day until I feel different. Also I am drinking mostly distilled water with a pinch of celtic sea salt in it. I have a spring near by although my instincts tell me to stay away from it for the time being.
When you eat mono meals. How long do you wait till your next meal? Because when I eat a mono meal of only 4 ounces of meat I am hungry until my next meal. I went mono for a week and lost a bunch of weight although I was very very clear headed and quite happy until I ate 9 apricots and felt sick. haha.

If I was over weight or at least average weight I would probably just continue to eat mono. Since I struggle with underweight I am a little worried about a nutritional deficiency if I were to eat mono for a long period of time.
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Offline LePatron7

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2013, 06:35:21 am »
Because when I eat a mono meal of only 4 ounces of meat I am hungry until my next meal. I went mono for a week and lost a bunch of weight although I was very very clear headed and quite happy until I ate 9 apricots and felt sick. haha.

Are you eating any fat with your meals? I eat 5 oz of meat per meal, about the same as you. But I also eat 2.5 oz of beef fat with each meal. I never feel hungry between meals. But I imagine I'd be very hungry between meals if all I ate was the meat. Without the fat it would be 500 less calories, per meal! Also fat slows down digestion.
Disclaimer: I was told I was misdiagnosed over 10 years ago, and I haven't taken any medication in over a decade.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2013, 06:48:55 am »
I hope they gave you a filter to pass your urine through so you can catch the stone for analysis. An x-ray may reveal more stones in wait, so you know how much work you need to do to reverse the damage and it might motivate you to do more. Small doses of radiation are reportedly even potentially hormetically beneficial (see Todd Becker, Vincent Guiliano, Seth Roberts, Nassim Taleb, Wim Hoff and others for more info on hormesis).

There is indeed lots of conflicting info on kidney stones, as well as conflicting opinions in this and other forums. There's so little consensus and such wide differences in personal experiences that one really is mostly on one's own on the topic.

Watery fruit sounds reasonable, though I never noticed any benefits for my own past chronic kidney stones and overly dark and thick urine from fruits or fruit juices (like unsweetened cranberry juice, for example), or water or other conventional therapies, and too much fruit makes me break out too. I didn't see any improvement until I cut grains out of my diet and haven't had any stones since (and that was over 8 years ago).

I did notice that if I eat too much muscle meat, even with raw fat added, that my urine starts to darken and condense a bit again, though not nearly as much as in my grain-eating days. I suspect that the main problem with VLC comes from when it's done too chronically instead of intermittently/varyingly and especially if one undereats or fasts too often or for too long or is underweight or there isn't enough in the way of minerals and other antioxidants in the body or the food to counter the stress from chronic VLC.

Diets at either macronutrient extreme - both ZC/extremeVLC and very high-fruit raw vegan - seem to be especially stressful on thin people. I've lost count of the number of failures by thin folks on both extremes. I think this is a major reason why Aajonus says that body fat is beneficial and detoxifying (toxins reportedly get stored away in body fat, presumably relieving the body from their stress) and I recently read someone (I forget who) say that six pack abs indicate that one is too thin for health optimization.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 07:29:00 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2013, 07:29:31 am »
My cousin's wife had success with these lemons and some water.
http://www.curemanual.com/diseases-and-tweaks/how-to-cure-kidney-stones-at-home/
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Offline paper_clips43

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2013, 01:29:25 am »
@GS What do you think about using limes instead?  Can I use a straw to drink the lemon/lime juice?

I have been using this remedy about two times a day with limes.
Usually in the morning. Seems to be helping. Today is day three.
I can only tolerate 1-2 oz bison fat and 2-4 ounces bison organ/mussel.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a supplement or particular food to eat more of while my meat consumption is so low?

Anyone else ever taken Shilajit? Or have any insights on its effects?
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2013, 07:20:15 am »
I do not have experience with limes so you need to share your experience.

You might look into using a bob beck magnetic pulser.

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Offline jessica

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 10:42:28 am »
be very careful with limes, they will eat through your enamel in no time.  even if you are careful.

Offline paper_clips43

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Re: Kidney Stones
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2013, 06:02:56 am »
Yah I could totally feel my teeth change one morning. Just slightly and I stopped the experiment. It might have helped though. I at a meal of 3 oz bison liver and 3 oz backfat last night and felt fine. I think I need to just rest after I eat my one meat meal. Also I started taking Shilajit for minerals while I do not consume as much meat and because of the fulvic acid. I feel a nice energy boost and clear headedness from it so am going to continue. Also planning on ordering blue ocean minerals for the magnesium content. Has anyone else taken Shilajit or have an opinion on the mattter? As far as I can tell its paleo.
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