Author Topic: Fighting naturally/fighting smart  (Read 24894 times)

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Offline JeuneKoq

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Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« on: July 09, 2014, 08:22:45 pm »
Hi everyone!

I started this topic because I believe physical fighting to be a good way to exercise, keep fit and release certain tensions, in the body and the mind. I am looking for a martial art or combat sport that feels both natural and is realistically applicable in a fist-to-fist situation. I am not really interested in a defense sport that would enable me to take the gun away from an armed man or anything of the like, even though I would not for the matter reject anyone's suggestion of a combat sport that would implement this kind of ability. What I'm after is a MA or combat sport that puts into use natural, functional movements, and in various forms (hands, legs, elbows, standing up, on the ground,...). It could also be a combination of two combat sports: for example wrestling and karate (note: I clearly know very little about combat sports, and have taken part in very few martial art lessons when younger, meaning one year of judo, another of "king-boxing", and some karate and taekwondo here and there)

An example of a combat sport that I don't find natural at all: boxing.
Use of fists only, bad technique (Fist strikes should be used against the softer part of the opponent's body, or else the fighter might end up with broken knuckles or generally just any type of hand trauma. Open hand strikes should be used against harder part of the body such as the head, in my opinion. Might be wrong though; please do correct if it's the case), virtually inapplicable in real-life fights.

This topic is open to any suggestions, or remarks.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 10:06:39 pm »
The best fighting sport is supposed to be Jiu-Jitsu, in that it is an all-rounder as a sport, not focusing too much on the legs or other specific parts of the body.

Offline Eric

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2014, 12:52:00 am »
Where do you live? What you'll train in will be largely defined by what's available.

I'd first search for a good ninjutsu teacher. They're few and far between though; most who teach under the ninjutsu banner are either frauds or just plain incompetent. If you can't find a good ninjutsu teacher, my next choice would be Krav Maga.

Both of these systems are broad in their scope, and both include hand-to-hand training, grappling, ground fighting, and weapons work.
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2014, 04:15:13 am »
Thank you Tyler and Eric for your suggestions!

I have to look more into this, but as a first impression (meaning: after watching two-three videos for each martial arts) both ninjutsu and jiu-jitsu appear to me as more "artistic" combat sports, with aesthetically pleasing -and certainly efficient, to some degree-, complex fighting techniques. But can it really be applied in a real life fist-fight against any opponents, be it a martial artist, or just a chaotic run-at-you throw-some-kicks-and-punches thug? If you have any experience with these martial arts, maybe you could clarify this.
Krav-maga already looks more like what I'm looking for, judging by the little I know about it. Then again it seems a bit too defense-oriented, with no real offensive components to it. Am I right?
 
Also aside of that I would like to know if there is any combat sport out there that is less directed for personal protection and real life, serious fighting, and instead is more fun, unwinding oriented. I had wrestling in mind, but if you know of another combat sport, or a better one that falls into that category, I'd love to know. I was thinking about this when I saw my dog "play" with her mates, and remembering how I used to play-fight as a kid.

Btw I live in Belgium  :P But who knows, the ninjas are everywhere....
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 04:26:12 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2014, 04:26:51 am »
Judo is the sport to play for fun.

The reason I cited Jiu-Jitsu is not due to my own abilities as my martial-arts expertise is at best average. However, I saw several Jiu-Jitsu practitioners  who were not necessarily physically strong or quick or whatever who could easily put otherwise stronger opponents into unbreakable arm-locks and the like which could easily end up in broken bones if the Jiu-Jitsu guy  wanted that.


Offline Eric

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2014, 04:56:03 am »
It seems as though you want a single system that's everything. No such fighting system exists. As I mentioned above, most ninjutsu teachers are either frauds or are incompetent. If you're watching YouTube videos from one of these people, you aren't seeing what the system really looks like. It can be beautiful and artistic, but is still quite useful in most any fighting situation.

Krav Maga is not primarily a defensive system, it is very well balanced between its defensive and offensive elements, perhaps even more heavily weighted towards the offensive side of things. Krav Maga is the fighting system taught to military personnel in Israel. There are increasingly teachers who offer it elsewhere throughout the world, each putting their unique slant on it, and unfortunately some are watering it down so as not to frighten away potential paying students.
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2014, 10:27:46 am »
I have attended his teachings

http://jimdees.com/

Mostly internal martial arts at first, then over the years you can be deadly.  Jim is an active duty police officer and he practices this martial art hands on to the bad guys every single duty day.

I suck at this stuff, but my friend is really into it.

Jim starts the day with: Qigong: Eight Piece Brocades Chi Kung - an internal martial art that exercises the internal organs.

This exercise was done by Li Ching Yuen, that 256 year old guy who died in 1933.


« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 10:35:33 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2014, 10:29:03 am »
I hear capoeira is a lot of fun.

Offline van

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 11:07:22 am »
I'm surprised Sully hasn't chimed in yet.   You might want to watch the real thing,, as in MMA.  those guy travel all around the world learning various disciplines.  One thing that's interesting to me, is you never see any one eastern martial art ever getting somebody to the top of MMA.   

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2014, 11:25:23 am »
Van, some martial arts are too deadly for spectator sport. 
That is a concept Jim tells the younger guys in his police force... do not mimick tv or movie sports, hands on martial arts should be deadly and quickly disable the bad guys.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 11:32:41 am by goodsamaritan »
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Offline Eric

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2014, 05:33:22 pm »
MMA can definitely be good exercise and can be useful in self defense situations, but it trains people to abide by lots of rules that are enforced in the cage that wouldn't be enforced in a street fight. If you can find a good MMA training facility it's worth stopping by, but realize they focus on competition.
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Offline van

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2014, 12:30:46 am »
Van, some martial arts are too deadly for spectator sport. 
That is a concept Jim tells the younger guys in his police force... do not mimick tv or movie sports, hands on martial arts should be deadly and quickly disable the bad guys.


Lelt's look at the rules then.   No kicking in the groin,, no martial arts training for that.  No eye gouging,, no martial arts training for that.   No kicking the head when a man is down on the ground,, no martial arts training for that.  Yes, they wear light weight gloves, so it is harder to grab a rib or pull the heart out of someones chest.... 
    But let's look at what they are allowed to to.  Kick to the temple with any part of the body.  Choke the throat and or any part of the body.  Ram the nose into the brain.   Crumple knew joints either by bending with arms or any assorted kicks.   The list goes on.    I'll say it again, place any one disciplined eastern martial arts 'expert' in the ring with a winning MMA fighter, and all my money will go on....

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2014, 05:00:08 am »
Personally I'm not looking for a martial art that is meant for killing or (permanently) handicapping  my opponent. I can see how these kind of combat sports could've emerged over time, given the fact that there is no true predator left to man, other than man himself.

Observing nature one will find that animals rarely attempt to kill members of the same specie, especially if the animal happens to be a clan member, for obvious survival reasons. The time a wolf does fight a wolf, or a deer fights another deer (ex: during mating season, or when members of rival clans meet), the disputant's aim during the clash will be to inflict enough pain to it's adversary as to force it to abandon the fight. Blood, broken ribs, sure, but if the animal gets a broken leg or something worse from it's opponent, the animal is likely to die. This does happen, but it would usually not be intentional from the opponent's part.

If you applied this to an overly caricatural paleo man's situation, Harry would be fighting Sam because Sam also has eyes for the beautiful Lucy. Feeling too hurt after a good deal of kicks and punches from Harry's part, Sam would then abandon the fight and decide that Lucy isn't worth all the beating up. Sam would leave the battle scene and be off to the flower fields, letting his bruises heal while soaking up the hot afternoon sun rays. Sam is a stubborn one, and would soon seek out another gorgeous paleo woman, ready to take another beating from a competing admirer...

I'll have to look deeper into all the martial arts that where suggested here, but it looks like MMA is quite close to what I would like to practice. Even though I picture MMA as being the kind of place where overly aggressive kids go to throw their punches, without there being a more lifestyle or individual betterment philosophy to it, if you get what mean; As opposed to martial arts in general.

However seeing that Sully practiced or still practices MMA, I wouldn't be surprised to have my presumptions shown wrong.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 05:07:42 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline van

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2014, 08:33:29 am »
that was a good intuitive take,, but consider this.    Early man, many men,  do kill, especially for other tribe's women.   Killing has always existed.   Just because there's a pretense of spirituality behind some form of martial arts most likely has little to do with true spirituality ( please don't ask me to define what that is,, as everyone has to find there own answer).  But I can tell you it probably has little to do with what you see in the movies or even documentaries.  Most all practices, if leaning towards some conscious evolvement, will eventually lead one to learning to be with what is, completely.      I have not trained at any MMA gyms, but I bet it's more than you project.   And the more would be the dedication to exceed.  Those guys work really hard and give of themselves tremendously.   And the ones that succeed, yes they have genetics, but moreover intelligence.  Look at some Utube training films of any of the brazilians or the canadian  George St. Clair.    Highly trained and disciplined 

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2014, 12:21:54 am »
Ive trained in mixed martial arts and basic combative training, with a good friend of mine.
http://www.truthincombat.com/philosophy.html

I am currently working an a martial arts fighting routine for my next pole performance, which is a creative way to stay fit, to say the least.
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Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2014, 07:06:53 am »
I've been searching again for a proper CS or MA, one that is meant to let off steam, keep fit and learn some basic fighting skills. Not long ago my mind was set on the idea that I first needed to sort out my back problems, and let heal a keloid scar on my chest, before engaging in such physical contact-oriented activity.

If I remember correctly, getting too much impact on a keloid scar could only cause the affected area to bulb up some more with collagen. I noticed the scar has reduced size since avoiding over-eating, and especially eating too much cooked meat (I am still in a transitional phase, since I'm only starting to get comfortable eating raw foods around my colleagues, and still eat regular dinner with my family when they do cook dinner. There are other criterions/obstacles in my life that makes it difficult for me to nourish myself the way I would like to , but I won't discuss it here )

So re the keloid scar wrestling was definitely a no-no for me, as getting bumped on the chest by the opponent's shoulder seems unavoidable. There's a photo of a keloid scar at the end of this page, for those who don't know how it looks like.


I was first reluctant at getting involved in these kind of  combat sport for the reason I cited, but at the same time I was (and still am) feeling the urge to let off some aggressively inside me through fighting. In fact I feel I have a lot of aggressive energy to release and express, and keeping it to myself has made me act in an unhealthy "compensating" way. It has made me want to crack my back, and over-eat cooked food as a way to release tensions, relax. Which is not helping the problem, and probably making things worse.
Also I'm currently having some issues with my right foot, so I haven't been able to let some steam off by running, as I would usually have done. Also running helped with anxiety, so that's another thing I have to take care of.

This is the reason why I have come back to the idea that practicing a CS or MA would be good for me, amongst other things.


I would like to start with a more fist and kicks combat sport, without any or too much grappling, but I'm looking for one that includes a variety of attacks with a variety of body parts: punches, palm strikes, knee strike, elbows, heel kick,...

I consider a CS or MA to be quality if it involves palm strikes, as it is a more natural and a more injury avoiding kind of attack when hitting the head, as compared to a fist punch. If done incorrectly, and even when done the best way possible, a fist punch thrown into a hard surface of the body such as the head frequently leads to unnecessary hand injury. My goal being to preserve a healthy, functioning hand as long as possible, I would rather be given the option to opt for a palm strike when sparing with a partner.

here's a little info on palm strikes: http://www.scifighting.com/2013/03/14/945/benefits-of-the-palm-strike/

Also I have my doubt on shinbone kicking being a very efficient, and non-self damaging attack. When learning kick-boxing, I have always felt uncomfortable shinbone-kicking, as it would hurt more than it would inflict pain to the opponent. Also seeing how thai boxers must render their shinbone nervous system insensitive by working their legs with a rolling pin, and hardening the bone by healing micro-fractures caused by hitting hard objects, shinbones doesn't seems like a very intuitive part of the body to hit a person with.
I mean Paleo men, as an example, who fought frequently for fun or dominance wouldn't have spent their time hardening their shinbone for the next fight. They probably used parts of the body that were already fit for fighting, such as heel kicks and fists, and grapple for the most part.

Also, if it is true that shinbones are not designed to be used this way, I wonder if using them in this odd manner could lead to some kind of leg damage/deterioration. As a running enthusiast I would rather avoid such negative outcome, if it was known to end this way.

So do you guys know of any CS or MA that matches my expectations?
And what do you think of shinbone kicking?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 07:20:52 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2014, 03:39:56 pm »
Also I found that Combat sports usually teach you how to take blows by tucking in (photo below), while martial arts that I know of will instead focus on deviating the hits, and perhaps use the opponent's forward motion against him, or seize the opportunity to grab its arm or leg.
Which strategy is the best/safest/most realistically put into use?

Offline Neone

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2014, 10:47:30 am »
Good lord man you are overthinking things. Go to whatever your local club is and learn the basics. Its not like you spend two weeks on learning to punch and then go into flying elbow strikes so just get started. In the kind of real but not real fighting you are talking about you really only use basic punching and kicking, and take some kind of ground fighting which is a lot of fun if you are secure enough in your sexuality to get gripsed up nice and close with other muscled sweaty men.

In regards to deflecting or bracing for a hit, it really depends, it is all situational and happens very fast, generally you will just take a hit while you try to dodge, you only learn how to not get hit in the head, by getting hit in the head so stop trying to make sure you learn the "perfect" martial art and just get out there and start training at the best club you can find.
That's not paleo.

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2014, 11:46:38 pm »
You're actually right, Neone. This has been an issue for me countless times. Just as an example it's almost impossible for me to go clothe-shopping on my own because I want to find the "perfect" sweater or whatever, so I need someone else to tell me "It suits you, just fucking buy it!".
Also I see that I've asked pretty much the same thing in the beginning of this thread, and that I've already been given some answers. MMA seems closest to what I want to practice, so removing the grappling part (for now) I guess I'll have to look at Kick-boxing or Thai-boxing. Plus I don't know if MMA clubs accepts beginners who have never seriously trained in any other MA before.

As for shinbone-kicking, I'm still interested in any opinion on the matter, regarding it's value as an attack.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 01:44:25 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline van

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2014, 02:56:25 am »
As regards shin bone kicking,, did you see (Utube) spider Silva break both lower bones accidentally kicking another's shin bone (shin bone on shin bone)?   go watch it if you haven't already.   In the Ufc, they rarely kick the shin bone, but instead, aim for the back of the calf, inside and outside of thigh, or higher.. 

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2014, 03:30:08 am »
As regards shin bone kicking,, did you see (Utube) spider Silva break both lower bones accidentally kicking another's shin bone (shin bone on shin bone)?   go watch it if you haven't already.   In the Ufc, they rarely kick the shin bone, but instead, aim for the back of the calf, inside and outside of thigh, or higher.. 
UUuugh no I hadn't!! But I just did!  :(

(not for the faint of hearts) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRBvZMxYNJY#ws

See this is one of the reasons why I don't think shinbone kicking is such a great (as in necessary, safely usable) attack to learn. I mean sure it can inflict quite some damage if you aim well, but in a (real) fight things usually happen very fast, plus the opponents are under a lot of pressure, sometimes tired. That's why accidents such as the one in the video can happen, even to professionals.

And to put it in a "Paleo time" perspective, a broken leg usually means death, as it would be too much effort and responsibility for the other clan members to carry him around and feed him while hoping for the leg to heal soon. So I don't think they would voluntarily take the risk of getting their shinbone broken by hitting an adversary's skull, elbow, hip, or shinbone.

Bone to bone contact is a bad idea most of the time.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 03:43:26 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline eveheart

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2014, 04:04:13 am »
And to put it in a "Paleo time" perspective, a broken leg usually means death, as it would be too much effort and responsibility for the other clan members to carry him around and feed him while hoping for the leg to heal soon. So I don't think they would voluntarily take the risk of getting their shinbone broken by hitting an adversary's skull, elbow, hip, or shinbone.

Another perspective from "Paleo time" is the idea that all fights are to the death. The thought of self-preservation pales in comparison to the thought of killing the opponent before he kills you, and you pull whatever punch, kick, twist, or bite is available in the heat of the moment. In other words, if you are going to win or die, you don't much care at the moment if winning is fatal to yourself. I know people who have survived a hand-to-hand fight to the death, and this is how they describe it.

Demonstration competitions look completely different, as the rules of engagement are an attempt to mitigate injury and avoid death.

"I intend to live forever; so far, so good." -Steven Wright, comedian

Offline JeuneKoq

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2014, 05:00:36 am »
First of all, not all fights are to the death.

There are play-fights, where the people involved push themselves around, tackle, grapple, throw a few hits sometimes, but are having fun and don't have particularly negative feelings against their opponents.

Then there are more regular fights, where the two opponents feel angry at each other and want to inflict pain to one another, but don't necessarily want to kill the other person. they will hit, kick, and grapple more aggressively, but will stop when tired or when they feel they've harmed the other enough. fights used to be like that when I was a kid, the loser would usually be the one crying. These kind of fights would most likely happen in Paleo times when a clan member would like to establish it's social ranking superiority over another member, or claim exclusive relationship with a female , if speech wasn't enough.

And finally, and surely not the most common type: fights to the death. As you can imagine there is extra aggressively involved, but what preoccupies us here is the way the opponents would engage, and act in such fight.

Naturally they would most likely charge against their adversary, and when standing they would use the top of their body the most to attack their opponent. Punches, palm strikes, grabs, elbow strikes. Perhaps a few knee-kicks. They would probably end up grappling quite quickly, and carry on on the ground with hand strikes. The only time when they would use their feet and legs to hit would be if they found enough distance between them and their opponent to do so, such as being on the ground while the other is still standing, or backing up when both are on their feet. And even in that case they would most likely use only heel kicks and its variants.

Just to illustrate the fact that shinbone kicking doesn't come spontaneously at all, even in situations where every kind of hit and attack is welcome. It just doesn't feel right to use it this way, at least not to me. I only started even considering shinbone kicking when I trained kick-boxing for a year, and still we only hit soft, easy targets (ex: partner's protected hand).
A good experiment to show this is going outside and trying to hit at tree. It's better if the tree has a smooth bark.

-Try hitting it moderately hard with your heel: almost no hesitation

-Try hitting it m-hard with a palm strike: same

-Now get ready to hit it as hard with your fist: hesitating? That's normal, your brain doesn't want you to harm yourself, it has evaluated that the loss will be greater than the benefit. The bark is not soft enough.

-Get ready to hit it as hard with a shinbone kick: you hesitated, didn't you? (unless you're intensely trained to do so, which is not the case of Paleo man. And I'm quite sure even a professional would still hesitate) Same as with the fist, the risk of getting harmed more than harming is too great.

On a side note: it's also easier to aim and hit the right place with fists than with a shinbone kick.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 05:33:49 am by JeuneKoq »

Offline Iguana

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2014, 05:22:57 am »
In May a totally wild cat was attracted to my place by the smell of fish. He finally became a good friend of mine, the most intelligent, friendly and gentle cat I’ve ever had. He never bites or claw, unlike cats fed cooked food have a propensity to do sometimes. He sleeps just in front of my door and I can’t go out without caressing him… He never wants me to stop it, looking at me straight in the eyes and asking for more!

This tends to substantiate the observations in GCB’s experiments that the consumption of cooked food, dairy and cereal grains (especially wheat), increases aggressiveness in animals, humans included.
 
There are plenty of indications from various researches that deadly conflicts between our ancestors during the Paleolithic were extremely rare. This is a tremendously important point for understanding what’s happening now on our planet.
I highly recommend the reading of that outstanding book which corroborates GCB’s theory. http://www.sexatdawn.com/page11/page10/page10.html
I downloaded it on my hard disk when our member Aura (what happened to her?) had found it online. I can send it by MP on request because it seems no longer freely available online.
`
This has already been discussed in that thread:
… "Sex at Dawn"
by Christopher Ryan, PhD, and Cacilda Jethá, MD, freely downloadable here http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/6191785/

It’s a great read that every paleo dieter should read, one of the 2 or 3 best books I ever read and even perhaps the best of them all.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 05:36:53 am by Iguana »
Cause and effect are distant in time and space in complex systems, while at the same time there’s a tendency to look for causes near the events sought to be explained. Time delays in feedback in systems result in the condition where the long-run response of a system to an action is often different from its short-run response. — Ronald J. Ziegler

Offline badboy9311

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Re: Fighting naturally/fighting smart
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2014, 06:41:16 am »
First off, what do you consider as "natural" ?
Natural brawling involving two animals/human are raw, technique-less and often just the sheer difference between
A. Size
B. Experience
C. athletic ability (strength, speed, cardio health etc..)
By saying natural you are basically discounting what human have learnt throughout the thousands years of violence and the knowledge that have accumulated, and natural would mean "brawling" in a sense.
Now, let's say you are open to learning, then there's a wide range of options.
My recommendation is the following: decide if you enjoy fighting on your feet, or on the floor.
Which one is more applicable? Both. that's the whole point of mixed martial art and the like..Ignoring one and you'll be demolished by the other. Likewise if you are interested in actually getting stronger, you won't just train upper body, but lower body as well.

So, how does MMA become natural? or be more naturalistic in terms of body involvement?
Simple: You learn.
Many movements in martial arts are just not very natural. For example: a simple blocking of a punch coming in from the left with a left shoulder raise (imagine tucking your head in) isn't very natural, at least not something you come out of the womb and knows how to do. Your natural reaction in this case is usually fully duck down or jump away, or try to put your hands up to block the punch.
However, the learning of this simple technique allows the fighter to take a hit that has little to no impact on his body due to absorption of the impact from shoulder, then he has his hands free so now he can attack his components. See how valuable boxing can become for hand-to-hand combat in this scenario ?
To say that one form of martial arts is not natural and does not make sense, is simply judging it from its specialized department. boxing being hand to hand exchanges on purely upper body level as example.
To jump out of this, learn Mixed Martial Arts. Start from the following: Muay Thai/Boxing/Wrestling/Brazilian Jiu-Jitzu
In terms of naturalistic movement, a lot of bullshit is floating around the globe..certain martial arts are simply not combat heavy enough to be contested, and can't even make it into real-world application. Take up one type of standing style first, or 1 type of ground style first, then go from there.
Once you've mastered one type of fighting style, you'd need a little basic from the others. For example, I used to be really involved in standing combat. All I needed was to learn how to defend against take-downs then im pretty much set in most situations. If you learn from the grounding style, all you need to learn is basic punching/blocking/kicking, then you're set as well.

In the end, fighting is size, athletic ability and experience. Natural or not..Doesn't really account for much.
If a "natural" style kind of guy got in the cage with a brazilian jiu-jitsu guy without knowing basic ground fighting style, he's done for. Same thing goes for the brazilian jiu-jitsu guy knowing nothing about stand-ups. I've seen both and you don't want to be in that situation.

if you're doing it for recreational reason, just go with a stand-up kind first.

 

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