Paleo Diet: Raw Paleo Diet and Lifestyle Forum

Raw Paleo Diet Forums => Hot Topics => Topic started by: PaleoPhil on February 03, 2014, 07:54:38 pm

Title: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 03, 2014, 07:54:38 pm
Chronic Zero Carb, Very Low Carb and Ketogenic diets are even worse than I realized. They are only useful in the short term, and no one knows how long is too long. Some people are developing serious, life-threatening autoimmune diseases while staying on them. Some of the early symptoms are cold fingers, low morning oral or axillary body temperature, and sensitivities to various foods. Don't let it progress into autoimmunity.

If you are following a zero carb or very-low-carb (also called "ketogenic) raw or cooked Paleo diet (I'll define VLC as roughly below 20% of calories), including a thing called the "Autoimmune Protocol", or an elimination diet recommended by a Naturopath that unfortunately turned out to be ketogenic and low in resistant starch, then you, like me, have been misled (probably in part by ignorant Paleo and LC "experts" who don't know what they're talking about). It's not safe, much less ideal. I don't have time to answer a lot of questions right now, unfortunately, so for now I ask folks to learn all you can about resistant starch and the Old Friends Hypothesis.

Apparently, two of the important things that humans should do are:

- stay out of ketosis most of the time (it's a stressful process designed to kick in during starvation, not every day)
- consume sufficient resistant starch (something like around 20 - 30 grams per day, but start out with smaller amounts to avoid flatulence or detox) and other prebiotics

Starchy foods have unfortunately been wrongly demonized. Many of them contain resistant starch that feeds our gut bacteria, especially raw starchy foods, so it's actually a good argument for eating plenty of raw foods, as long as a big portion of them are starchy, which are unfortunately rare in supermarkets these days.

I apologize for in the past recommending that people read Lex Rooker's journal. I didn't understand how dangerous his experiment is. Not many people on the planet did. Please forgive me.

Pay attention to what the critics of VLC/ketogenic say, like Iguana, not the proponents.

See the comments of Spanish Caravan, such as at this thread, for more information:

http://freetheanimal.com/2014/01/carbing-this-beast.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/01/carbing-this-beast.html)


Spanish Caravan is a brilliant physician who was unfortunately sucked in by the thinking behind this dangerous diet and is now spilling the beans about this anonymously to avoid the risk of litigation. Other physicians know that VLC is a disaster but are afraid to publicly admit the error. Some other people online who have figured this out are Richard Nikoley, Tatertot Tim, Dr. BG, Paul Jaminet and Chris Kresser.

It's possible that he or I may have some details wrong, because this is so new. No one has tried a chronic ketogenic diet before in all of human history. It's a dangerous novel experiment, with humans as guinea pigs.

I figured out too late that VLC makes no sense and is dangerous and didn't realize that I was missing this important thing called resistant starch.  I now think that one reason I've been finding it so hard to reincorporate carby foods into my diet is that my gut microbiome was damaged. It had already been damaged by years of antibiotics, so I was especially susceptible to this additional damage. I actually think that even the regular early cooked Paleo diet along the lines of what Loren Cordain recommended that included a reasonable amount of carbs from fruits and nuts started the damage for me, because it was low in resistant starch. It was a misleading diet because it made me feel so good at first.

I'm currently trying to aim for a diet that's more like what Paul Jaminet and Chris Kresser recommend, though it's difficult due to my carb intolerance. I make sure to consume plenty of resistant starch most days (with intermittent days where I don't). Paul says to avoid legumes, but some of them are good sources of resistant starch, so I don't recommend doing that unnecessarily. Like starch, legumes also got more demonized than they should have been. If you're gut microbiome got screwed up, you may have to avoid them at first.

I know some people aren't going to believe me, but I don't want to get drawn into time-sucking debates. This thread is for the people who are having problems on VLC.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 03, 2014, 09:58:25 pm
A couple of things:- First,  an attack like this should have gone into the hot topics forum. I have done so now. Secondly, the above text seems to be rather "science-poor" and designed to frighten rather than inform,  hardly  PP´s usual stance.  Thirdly, I like many before me did RVLC for many years before going back to eating more carbs, and I never suffered from cold hands and feet or any serious problem. All I found was that anaerobic exercise like lifting weights required a bit more carbs in the diet to do well. I did do very badly on RZC after just a few weeks, but that involved cutting out all plant foods altogether.
Then there is the awkward point that babies who are being naturally breastfed are in ketosis the whole time, which rather indicates that ketosis can be healthy!
 
Then there is all this talk about starch. I seem to recall a previous chat I had with you where I cited a source showing that a tribe, famous for eating lots of starchy tubers,  actually loathed eating the tubers and only viewed them as being "starvation-food" at best that they had no choice to eat during  frequent periods of scarcity.  Recommending starvation-food to us rawpalaeodieters when we have all this lovely raw animal fat etc. on offer to feast on instead really is a non-starter.

I see in that comments section a recommendation of 30-40% carbs which is described as being "low!"  Absolute rubbish. And the legumes, full of  antinutrients, what a piss-poor food-type to recommend!
 
 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 03, 2014, 10:59:33 pm
I have to say Phil that this is unlike you to cherry pick for information supporting your viewpoints.  I thought you to be more 'scientific' in your approach.   
   Might I suggest you investigate and discover of 'those' that you quote to have done poorly with the low carb approach as to why you say they have done poorly.  For example, should you mention those in Charles's camp,  one could very well speculate several reasons should they actually have done poorly;  primarily eating meat from Costco, eating one large protein meal a day, and obviously cooking the heck out of their food. 
   Over the years you made 'discoveries' of all sorts that appear to you to be the next best thing, and now RS.   And of course it very well may be.    Let's see.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 04, 2014, 12:47:59 am
Very interesting link. Thank you, PaleoPhil, for keeping us informed :-*. I would very much appreciate if you could continue to keep us (or at least me!) informed.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 04, 2014, 01:23:31 am
Yes, thanks Phil. As expected, your stance has triggered a lot of opposition, but I'm on total agreement with you on this point.

Until children are born of ZC parents and grown up to healthy adults while strictly keeping on ZC, this modern ideology should be cautioned as potentially dangerous when steadily practiced for more than a few months.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 04, 2014, 01:51:55 am
there is one family, who's member is on Charles' forum.  He's posted videos of his family.  But, I agree,  one would have to look to the inuit or american plains indians to validate whether generations can flourish on low to zero carb.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: ys on February 04, 2014, 03:23:04 am
Quote
Some of the early symptoms are cold fingers, low morning oral or axillary body temperature, and sensitivities to various foods.

That's what I had before.  These issues went away completely after I switched to low carb 5+ years ago.  Whenever I increase carb intake esp starches I don't feel as well.  Maybe some people are different?  I would not be so quick to generalize.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 04, 2014, 03:34:22 am
Quote
Some of the early symptoms are cold fingers, low morning oral or axillary body temperature, and sensitivities to various foods. Don't let it progress into autoimmunity.

These are symptoms of low thyroid function. It's more than likely the people experiencing these symptoms were low on key minerals and vitamins that support the thyroid (selenium, vitamin a, vitamin d, iodine).

The thyroid tends to slow down on a low carb diet. Carbohydrates stimulate thyroid function. On a low carbohydrate diet it is especially important to include enough thyroid supportive nutrients.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: mango on February 04, 2014, 04:29:30 am
All I can say is Wow.  PaleoPhil, I hope it turns out that your account has been hacked and you are not the writer of these posts.  Such ranting and raving, making unsubstantiated claims, spreading fear about a zero carb lifestyle based on your limited experiences.. etc. seem quite  out of character from the scientific minded person that I thought you were.

I'm only posting in here mainly to prevent newcomers from being scared off from ridiculous posts such as this.
My experiences being on a raw ZC for close to a year now have been nothing short of spectacular. 
Amongst so many drastic improvements in the health of my mind and body, a raw ZC diet has healed me from from carpal tunnel syndrome which made it unbearable to work or sit at a desk and a small intestine bacterial overgrowth that has plagued me my entire life. 

It's funny that you also chose to bash on the autoimmune protocol and the cooked ZC diet.  I started with the autoimmune protocol and it greatly helped me, then moved on to a cooked ZC diet, and ultimately found the glorious raw ZC diet.  I wouldn't be where I was today without going through these stages individually. 
In the communities for each of these diets there are many, many people having great success.

Lex Rooker's journal singlehandedly made me believe that a diet which at the time seemed to radical compared to anything I have ever done, could be safe and benefit ones health.  I really owe a lot to that man sharing and documenting his experiences.

I fully believe *that on today, 2/3/14, that you believe* that "resistant starch" is a requirement for all individuals and would greatly benefit everyone.  But creating new topics such as this one and other posts you've recently made are not the place for this - this is what your journal is for - to document your experiments/results/beliefs on what you think is best for your own body.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 04, 2014, 04:38:50 am
Yes, thanks Phil. As expected, your stance has triggered a lot of opposition, but I'm on total agreement with you on this point.

Until children are born of ZC parents and grown up to healthy adults while strictly keeping on ZC, this modern ideology should be cautioned as potentially dangerous when steadily practiced for more than a few months.
  Err, plenty of Inuit children have been born of ZC parents and grown to be healthy adults..........
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Projectile Vomit on February 04, 2014, 05:10:45 am
On that note, Inuit rely heavily on ocean fish and mammals for food, so perhaps their higher intake of mineral-dense ocean animals makes up for their comparative lack of carbohydrate and/or resistant starch.

I find it unfortunate that people are coming down hard on Phil regarding his changing stance on ZC and VLC. Both of these are largely experimental diets, never practiced before by most genetic lineages of Homo sapiens. Those who follow these paths are consenting to using themselves as experimental subjects, and the outcomes are anything but known. Might work great for some people and not others, might work okay for a select few and be disastrous for the vast majority, we won't know for years, or perhaps even generations.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 04, 2014, 05:24:40 am
  Err, plenty of Inuit children have been born of ZC parents and grown to be healthy adults..........

So, what PP wrote below would be wrong too? I don’t think Inuits have ever been totally ZC, anyway. Moreover, as Eric points out, Inuits have had plenty of access to sea mammals which are a totally different source of animal fat and proteins than beef. They live in a very different environment than our people too.

(Inuits) presumably developed their large livers over thousands of years. I don't think it makes sense to try to do that within a single lifetime.

ZC is even more dangerous than I realized. If anything, I would have been even harsher about it in the past if I knew what I know now.

The larger Inuit livers provide them with more glycogen, which I'll bet kept them from running out of glycogen during the night if they were well fed, even though they were often not getting much carbs. Doesn't make sense to try to do what they did with a small liver.

Plus, even Eskimos didn't pass up Eskimo potatoes and probably also ate the fermented stomach contents of animals, at least a little bit. And who knows how important their high meats/fish/birds were, which were not prepared the way Aajonus claimed, as Eric pointed out.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 04, 2014, 05:26:34 am
I find it unfortunate that people are coming down hard on Phil regarding his changing stance on ZC and VLC. Both of these are largely experimental diets, never practiced before by most genetic lineages of Homo sapiens. Those who follow these paths are consenting to using themselves as experimental subjects, and the outcomes are anything but known. Might work great for some people and not others, might work okay for a select few and be disastrous for the vast majority, we won't know for years, or perhaps even generations.

Exactly. I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 04, 2014, 05:55:57 am
Quote
Moreover, as Eric points out, Inuits have had plenty of access to sea mammals which are a totally different source of animal fat and proteins than beef. They live in a very different environment than our people too.

Seafood is also rich in iodine. I truly believe the extra iodine I do take does contribute to my success on RZC.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: goodsamaritan on February 04, 2014, 08:19:20 am
I think Raw ZC should be used as a temporary remedy, not long term.... like raw veganism... temporary. 

...And not for beginners of RPD.

I used 3 days of Raw ZC for my then 5 yr old daughter to stop inflammation in a tooth infection.  The dentist wanted antibiotics for 7 days.  I gave Raw ZC to the girl for 3 days.  The dentist said in 3 days the pain will be taken away by antibiotics.  Raw ZC took away the pain in 2 days.

I gave her raw bone marrow, raw liver and raw muscle meat plus mineral water for 3 days.

I was on raw horse meat and horse fat and water for almost a week when my son was bleeding with intussusception... and that raw ZC thing was just what I needed for tense concentration and successfully heal him.  It was more of a subconscious thing when that happened because that was the only food available to me at that time.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: goodsamaritan on February 04, 2014, 08:37:37 am
I would like to add that I put our driver on Raw ZC for 8 days to heal his pneumonia.

Quote
Moreover, as Eric points out, Inuits have had plenty of access to sea mammals which are a totally different source of animal fat and proteins than beef. They live in a very different environment than our people too.

Seafood is also rich in iodine. I truly believe the extra iodine I do take does contribute to my success on RZC.

Most of the grazing land today may be depleted of the minerals they should contain.  And land around the world is not uniformly nutritious.  While the ocean may have more pristine built in nutrition left in it. 

I'm thankful for the raw ZC experimentors like you because it gives healers like me ideas how this can be used for healing.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 04, 2014, 08:48:52 am
Quote
Most of the grazing land today may be depleted of the minerals they should contain.  And land around the world is not uniformly nutritious.  While the ocean may have more pristine built in nutrition left in it. 

You also have to remember that iodine is a key player in protecting our bodies from pollutants, radiation, toxins and heavy metals (probably the best chelator). The more of such we are exposed to - the more we need.

Quote
I'm thankful for the raw ZC experimentors like you because it gives healers like me ideas how this can be used for healing.

I'm glad I can be of any help!
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 04, 2014, 09:16:56 am
Hi folks, My dear uncle, a good soul, just died rather suddenly right when he seemed to be recovering from a bad virus unrelated to this topic. Luckily, he and I are both Irish (2nd and 3rd generation), and the real Irish are certain that their departed relatives are somehow still around nearby in the other world, even though I'm not religious (don't ask me to explain it, I don't understand it myself). Thus the wake is likely to be more like a family reunion than a mourning session, especially since he lived many years. I always get a kick when a non-Irish priest does the sermon and remarks on how happy the Irish seem to be at wakes and funerals. :) I don't know about the younger generations though, they seem to be changing.

I'll try to quickly drum up some answers here. In case I don't have time for much more answers, I may have to leave it to Eric and Iguana and anyone else who understands the topic somewhat or has had a chance to read up on resistant starch to answer additional questions for now, if they can. Thanks guys if you can, and thank heavens there are some people here who see through the arguments and excuses for the dangerous chronic ZC/VLC starchless diets (I'm not talking about careful, intermittent days of VLC).

This is awful, because I think this topic is a matter of life and death too. Anyone who's familiar with my posts knows I've never said that before, and it indeed is not like me at all, so you know I'm not just making it up. How I do wish this was just due to my account being hacked.

Yes, I'm trying to frighten people and shake them up. I'm frightened myself. It's looking like a nightmare that we're only just starting to get the gist of. Richard Nikoley said that there will be more information to come. I had seen lots of reports of minor issues from cooked VLCers and ZCers before. Now it seems they are becoming more serious. From the early indications, it seems that insufficient starch, especially resistant starch, is one of the key factors. It's looking like Dr. McDougall was right to a certain degree, in that starchy foods are apparently important foods and probably shouldn't be severely restricted, much less entirely elminated from the diet.

I likely wouldn't have time to answer all the questions or debate every critic even if it weren't for this personal matter, because it's a perfect storm that is currently swirling in the Paleo and LC dieting worlds. All sorts of people are coming out and saying "Yeah, I have those problems too, but the LC gurus and most avid followers said to ignore them and...

just eat more fat
give it time
don't worry about it
that's natural physiological insulin resistance
constipation is no big deal, just take Natural Calm Magnesium
there's no such thing as a starch/carb deficiency
I don't see how resistant starch is necessary
you can get all the carbs you need from whole sweet raw organic fruits or ...
etc.

Sound familiar? It turns out it's mostly or all bogus. Don't believe them.

I thought of a temporary compromise solution. Chronic ZC has never been tried before by any human population (at least not one that survived) in all of human history (those who think it has are probably not going to listen to me, so I'm speaking to the rest of you). Given that there are now reports of much more severe problems caused by chronic cooked VLC diets (you'll find them at Free the Animal, Mark's Daily Apple and probably other forums) than the issues it is generally being used to treat, and given that we don't know how much of a protection rawness is from those problems, why don't folks who aren't adamant about it take a one month break from zero carbing, to give this thing time to play out, keeping an eye and ear out for more information?

Just a thought. I'm not telling anyone what to do, just praying some will pay attention and look into it, quickly.

Over the years you made 'discoveries' of all sorts that appear to you to be the next best thing, and now RS.   And of course it very well may be.    Let's see.
Heh, good one, Van. Luckily, there are half a dozen or so "experts" who are saying this stuff, including at least one MD (Spanish Caravan), and the number is likely to grow as more and more followers demand answers (if you're a fan of one of the gurus and they haven't spoken out on the topic, then it's time to ask them about it), so you don't have to believe me.

@Hanna, Thanks, hope this helps.

That's what I had before.  These issues went away completely after I switched to low carb 5+ years ago.  Whenever I increase carb intake esp starches I don't feel as well.
Same here, that's one of the early signs that the gut bacteria have been messed up. I'm working on trying to remedy that now myself. I'm currently using mainly potato starch and raw dried green plantain slices with some success but still have a ways to go. I hope I can fix this. There's plenty of info on potato starch, plantains and other RS sources from Tatertot at a couple blogs and forums, which you can probably easily find by googling Tatertot and resistant starch. Unfortunately for folks here, his focus and just about everyone else's is on cooked sources.

Thanks for sharing that important type of case I forgot to mention and my own at that {smacks own head}, ys. I'm praying that your and my problems with starches won't turn into the severe cases that others reportedly have been, and I hope to god that none of the people I told about Paleo or Dr. Bernstein, and none of the people they told about them, and anyone who was influenced by me here (which I hope is none) is in dire straits or headed that way. I've been trying to check around, but it's hard with a death of a great man in the clan.

Maybe I shouldn't post more links for now, because I saw someone accuse Richard that this is a marketing gimmick for his book. I have nothing to do with Richard's book, but it occurs to me that some might ass-u-me otherwise. :)

@mango I like Lex quite a bit too, which is why I'm trying to warn him. Boy do I hope I'm wrong about the importance of resistant starch and other prebiotics. I'm not taking that chance myself and I already appear to have benefited from RS, according to my glucometer and thermometer, and they haven't lied to me lately that I know of. :) You're free to do what you wish, of course.

@Eric, Don't worry, I expected the hullabaloo, and you're right on the money as is often the case.

@Iguana, And you're on the money about the Inuit with their Eskimo potato, fermented stomach contents, tree barks and saps and such.

@GS, Right on, man--temporary, not long term.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 04, 2014, 09:48:05 am
Then there is the awkward point that babies who are being naturally breastfed are in ketosis the whole time, which rather indicates that ketosis can be healthy!
Ah, good point I forgot to mention, thanks for the reminder, Tyler.
 
I should clarify that there is apparently a bad form of ketosis and a good form (bear in mind this stuff is all rather new, as no one in their right mind ever tried chronic ketogenic diets until recently--even Atkins had just a temporary induction phase). The good one is when you eat something like mother’s milk that contains prebiotics that feed your gut bacteria, in addition to the food for yourself (or the infant, in this case). That way, both you and the bacteria are getting fed.
 
So the safe way to do ketosis is by eating prebiotics and maybe a modest amount of some foods rich in SCFAs, not by severely limiting carb intake long-term. Even then, I don't know how often it's safe to go into ketosis via prebiotics.
 
The bad form is where you severely restrict your carb intake and feed only yourself by eating lots of fat and little or no prebiotics. Then you feed yourself but starve your good bacteria, a recipe for eventual disaster, though it may take many years to occur.
 
Remember, mother’s milk contains carbs (reportedly 39% - see http://filteredhealth.com/435/paul-jaminet-ph-d-evidence-on-aging-and-disease (http://filteredhealth.com/435/paul-jaminet-ph-d-evidence-on-aging-and-disease)). Humans are designed to eat some carbs (as well as fats and proteins) and also some prebiotics. Starchy foods contain both starchy carbs and a prebiotic called “resistant starch” that feeds our gut bacteria, which then feed us some more with fat that they produce. Aren't those little buggers sweet?  :D
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 04, 2014, 05:56:36 pm
Van, Tyler, how much carbs do you eat a day?

Quote
Thirdly, I like many before me did RVLC for many years before going back to eating more carbs, and I never suffered from cold hands and feet or any serious problem.


Tyler, as far as I remember, you eat cooked carbs frequently or occasionally, don`t you?
How much carbs did you eat ON AVERAGE when eating RVLC?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 04, 2014, 06:45:28 pm
Nowadays, I am being constantly encouraged/pushed to eat more raw fruit and  veg (better than being expected to eat cooked foods, though)so probably eat   about  250g (?) of raw carbs a day on average. I am far more alert when I do RVLC and have far less appetite so spend less on food  but I have been a bit more careless with my  health these days as I have long since recovered from the painful illnesses I had pre-RPD diet.

I occasionally eat cooked carbs. It's those blasted Viennese cakes.

During those years when I did RVLC, I would eat a banana a week, at most. Or perhaps just an apple or one other fruit,  instead of the banana, that sort of thing.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 04, 2014, 06:49:05 pm
Hi from another (almost) raw zero carber, successfully since over 4 years.

I think 24isours point about seafood is a great point. I also think, good water / hydration is huge when we speak about a body that burns fat for fuel.
There are so many things you can do wrong... and the fault might very well not be the keto diet... just sayin'...

On Charles forum are plenty of successful zero carbers.. doing 100% cooked meat diet since many years. There are a couple of women that was infertile even, and now have healthy ZC babies! Pictures and videos to check out too. Yes, there are some having issues too, but I do not really wonder eating grilled chicken wings.. dairy etc...... The more successful usually keep it at cleaner food sources. I have followed the forum a bit for my own personal research. Pretty remarkable that you can stay so healthy / heal from many issues on a cooked meat diet, seriously.

I have to say I really love my WOE. I feel just great!  I do eat lots of raw oysters and seafood too and seaweeds. Maybe that is why I do so well. My liver is in great shape (was testing last fall, and I test regularly - all my labs were great!)
But. I also avoid artificial light at night + take care to get daylight in my eyes, avoid EMFs as good as it gets, I go early to bed, drink plenty of good water from own well, tan a lot nude all summer long + do earthing, I let my body feel the natural temps where I live (cold) and I exercise my mind... ;)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 04, 2014, 07:23:27 pm
No need to eat tubers and unnatural potato starch to get RS. Or feed the bacteria in our gut. Raw fresh nuts are a GREAT RS source and totally natural and it is easy to get wild nuts too so no need to eat anything cultivated either.
Wild greens picked in the yard with some dirt on are great for our gut too... as is wild berries and high meat! :)

The last Paleo craze is RS and more carbs... easy to get fooled I know. But we need to look deeper and also from a 30 000 foot view. And for me, the most important question arise;

Is this NATURAL? If not, I just know what my answer will be.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 04, 2014, 09:07:58 pm
Do you know which nuts have the most RS Inger, aside from the ones I mentioned that were on the list? I'd like to learn about any others. thanks
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 04, 2014, 09:44:38 pm
Nuts contain antinutrients, although those antinutrients do get reduced a bit if you leave them in water for 24 hours before eating them.

Just read about resistant starch on wikipedia.-

"RS1 Physically inaccessible or digestible resistant starch, such as that found in seeds or legumes and unprocessed whole grains
 RS2 Resistant starch that occurs in its natural granular form, such as uncooked potato, green banana flour and high amylose corn
 RS3 Resistant starch that is formed when starch-containing foods are cooked and cooled such as in legumes,[2] bread, cornflakes and cooked-and-chilled potatoes, pasta salad or sushi rice. Occurs due to retrogradation, which refers to the collective processes of dissolved starch becoming less soluble after being heated and dissolved in water and then cooled.
 RS4 Starches that have been chemically modified to resist digestion. This type of resistant starches can have a wide variety of structures and are not found in nature
"

Seeds , whole grains and legumes are harldly suitable  given antinutrients in them. Uncooked potato has high levels in particular. I remember one rock star mentioning how he had eaten raw potato and nothing else for a month and nearly died. As for rice,  bread etc:, all are similiarly unsuitable.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 04, 2014, 10:22:09 pm
IDK Phil... I need to research that. I just know they contain RS and as IDK what nuts have more or less I just eat a variety preferring wild nuts / seeds...

Actually if nuts are fresh and raw and organic they have many health benefits (rancid or heated nuts are bad!). I know they have antinutrients too but a little bit on a otherwise carnivorious diet I guess will not hurt. Maybe it will be just hormetic :)

I do nuts here and there and I feel great and have had no issues as long as I am VERY picky with the quality. They MUST be raw. And fresh!
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 05, 2014, 03:22:26 pm
PP was concerned about rising blood glucose, among others, and this is something experienced by you, Inger, too.

These are symptoms of low thyroid function. It's more than likely the people experiencing these symptoms were low on key minerals and vitamins that support the thyroid (selenium, vitamin a, vitamin d, iodine).

How do you ensure to include these nutrients? NEMs? Special foods?
What about your blood glucose?

Mine has been low (but within the norm) whenever it was measured although I eat fruit high in fructose.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 05, 2014, 05:20:01 pm
I am not worried about my highish blood glucose at all anymore Hanna. It is not pathological when you look at the context..... I have done my research believe me.
When you run on fat/ketones and live in the cold this is what will happen and it is for a reason.

The nutrients mentioned above for thyroid health you get all from seafood in abundance...  :)
That is why seafood is so important.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 05, 2014, 06:59:19 pm
The seafod explanation is a bit glib. What about those Arctic  tribes which did not live near the coast, yet lived far north where no plants were easily available?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 05, 2014, 07:23:51 pm
Which tribes?
Seafood is an interesting aspect. I eat quite „low carb“ (although nothing near zero carb) and eat seafoods very regularly too. Currently, I eat seaweeds almost every day, and I love and eat them since several years.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 05, 2014, 08:07:02 pm
I am not worried about my highish blood glucose at all anymore Hanna.
I wasn't either at first, because so many were claiming that this is just "natural physiological insulin resistance" and totally benign (it struck me as a little odd at the time that so many were just accepting this without providing much evidence, but no one was saying otherwise, even folks who seemed fairly skeptical, like a skeptical physician VLC Paleo blogger and Lex Rooker--the physician later increased his starch intake, and started talking about the Old Friends Hypothesis being more important, which I and Tyler and some others had been reading a bit about too, so I was probably more open to that idea than most Paleos, and that was another clue for me along the way), but I now I think it was one the early signs that something was wrong.

Resistant starch quickly reversed this for me, whereas increasing my consumption of raw fruits and honey or cooked starches low in resistant starch didn't. It hasn't fixed everything, though, so it's not an instant cure for everything, but that's still pretty remarkable to me.

Beware Inger, I think Dr. Kruse is unfortunately one of the more wrong of the gurus. Be on the lookout for of any of his followers reporting high or gradually rising fasting blood glucose, low WBC, low T3, hypothyroid, feeling cold, cold extremities, vitamin and mineral deficiencies (especially magnesium and B vitamins), poor sleep, waking during the night, low dream recall, dreaming in only black and white, food intolerances and other symptoms associated with VLC and low intakes of RS. These problems seem to hit women and people with histories of antibiotic use first.

Tigernuts (or tiger nuts?) are actually a sedge tuber and are one of the more interesting starchy foods. Not only are they edible raw, everyone who as tried them and reported back says they are quite tasty. Apparently, they are so tasty that children in WW2 Britain loved them, according to this guy who remembered loving them so much he decided to see if he could find them again and then to sell them:
TigerNutsIntro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXPbW2WqfgQ#ws)

Tyler, Maybe you could ask some old timers in Britain if they remember tigernuts?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 05, 2014, 08:48:38 pm
Ah, the other name of tigernuts is chufas. Yeah, rather tasty: I had some years ago. Orkos sells them but I forgot to order it lately.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 05, 2014, 09:31:33 pm
Quote
How do you ensure to include these nutrients? NEMs? Special foods?
What about your blood glucose?

I've been supplementing Iodine for almost four years now as I rarely eat seafood. I make sure to get my Vitamin D from sunshine in the summer and during winter months I supplement with a whole food source. I supplement an extra 3/4 teaspoon of sea salt throughout the day mixed in water. The Vitamin A comes from organ meat and beef is high in selenium.

I have not checked my glucose since I've started the diet.

Quote
The seafod explanation is a bit glib.



The seafood explanation is a hypothesis I based on research proving a low carb diet slows down thyroid function and my ability to thrive on a RZC diet. Some of the symptoms you had experienced during your RZC trial were reversed for me and countless others a short time after they started supplementing extra Iodine.
--------
Conclusion:
Research says thyroid hormones are produced at a much faster rate when carbohydrates are included in the diet and hormone production drops significantly during a low carbohydrate diet. Iodine a long with proper nutrients has been shown to normalize thyroid function in those with under active, over active,  or autoimmune thyroid conditions.

(I don't think any of these studies used a zero carbohydrate diet, just a LOW carbohydrate diet. This would make me think the production of hormones process would slow down even further.)

Quote
What about those Arctic tribes which did not live near the coast, yet lived far north where no plants were easily available?
-----------
I don't see why they would need any sea vegetables with an abundant source of raw seafood.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 05, 2014, 09:35:28 pm
The "old-timers" in WW2 Britain were forced to endure massive shortages due to rationing, this stupid practice going on until 1951!  I know nothing about a foolish craze for  inadequate foods like tigernuts but if they did so, it was only because better, healthier foods were not so readily available. I do recall my  father being a lot more sensible and  successsfully shooting  wild rabbits and wild hares instead. Only catch was that his father told him off for not giving away the plunder to locals in need.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 05, 2014, 09:43:31 pm
I don't see why they would need any sea vegetables with an abundant source of raw seafood.
  The point is that those tribes which had no access to the coast would have had no access to seafood or seaweed, and still managed to thrive, thus disproving any iodine claims.

My own experience of RVLC was extremely successful with several advantages over higher carb diets, with none of the bad experiences I had on RZC experiments, barring the very minor issue of not doing as well on anaerobic exercise activity as when on high carb diets. Over those  RVLC years, I did not eat much at all  in the way of raw seafood  - I indulged in that food-group  more after I foolishly went higher-carb years later. 

I should add that, given my past health-problems pre-RPD diet, my thyroid and adrenals were severely damaged, so I have even more reason to disbelieve the thyroid_VLC claims. Whatever the case, given the poor nutritional content of foods rich in resistant starch, I can be certain that RS foods are by no means "superfoods".
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 05, 2014, 10:14:31 pm
Quote
The point is that those tribes which had no access to the coast would have had no access to seafood or seaweed, and still managed to thrive, thus disproving any iodine claims.

What about the inland water ways? What about the water beneath their feet? Did they really have to be near the coast to have access to raw seafood?

Quote
I should add that, given my past health-problems pre-RPD diet, my thyroid and adrenals were severely damaged, so I have even more reason to disbelieve the thyroid_VLC claims.

Why do you disbelieve the claims? It is proven that a low carbohydrate intake slows down thyroid function.
Is it because you were eating a high carb diet before you started the RZC and your energy levels seemed high?
Just because you are eating more carbohydrates and your thyroid is working faster doesn't mean it is working efficiently -especially if you are low in Iodine to begin with.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: goodsamaritan on February 05, 2014, 10:16:24 pm
Iodine levels from the Raw ZC practitioners... how did you get your iodine levels raised to a good enough level?  Sea food?  Iodine supplements?  Any tests we can do?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 05, 2014, 10:29:59 pm
Iodine levels from the Raw ZC practitioners... how did you get your iodine levels raised to a good enough level?  Sea food?  Iodine supplements?  Any tests we can do?

I started supplementing Iodide at 50mg for the first few years. As I tweaked my diet and started getting adequate companion nutrients I noticed I needed less and less. I would think for RPDieters a good dose to start at would be around the lowest recommended dose which is around 6.5mg. You should also look into Dr. Brownstein's Iodine research.  I personally stick with IODIDE supplements and not elemental IODINE as Iodide is sourced from food. Some doctors claim that you need both Iodide and Iodine because certain tissues/glands require the elemental version (Iodine) over Iodide but it has been proven that the body can convert Iodide to Iodine when needed.

Here are some useful links:

http://www.oasisadvancedwellness.com/learning/iodine-fulfillment-therapy.html (http://www.oasisadvancedwellness.com/learning/iodine-fulfillment-therapy.html)
http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-10/IOD_10.htm (http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/IOD-10/IOD_10.htm)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 05, 2014, 10:38:55 pm
Also see:
http://healyourselfathome.com/HOW/NEWSTARTS/1_NUTRITION/MINERALS/IODINE/HOW_TO_SUPPLEMENT/lugols_dosage_guidelines.aspx (http://healyourselfathome.com/HOW/NEWSTARTS/1_NUTRITION/MINERALS/IODINE/HOW_TO_SUPPLEMENT/lugols_dosage_guidelines.aspx)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 06, 2014, 12:04:40 am
What about the inland water ways? What about the water beneath their feet? Did they really have to be near the coast to have access to raw seafood?
  The water beneath their feet? You mean, the ice above the ground! Err, fish do not generally enjoy swimming in glaciers and the like.  To answer your question, to have access they would have needed to be near a river to get freshwater(not seawater) fish, which is no guarantee. Migrating tribes would have rather relied on pemmican and similiar foods, judging from sources, in order to sustain themselves rather than eating  seafood.
Quote
Why do you disbelieve the claims? It is proven that a low carbohydrate intake slows down thyroid function.
Is it because you were eating a high carb diet before you started the RZC and your energy levels seemed high?
Just because you are eating more carbohydrates and your thyroid is working faster doesn't mean it is working efficiently -especially if you are low in Iodine to begin with.
You completely misunderstand. I wholly disbelieve the vague claims re iodine and VLC because I was for many years on an RVLC diet, with, at best,  no more than a banana(or similiar fruit) a week , and I  really thrived on that diet without this nonsense of needing extra iodine supplements(or indeed any other supplements, for that matter). I did suffer when I transitioned to a wholly  RZC diet around that time, but I started then actually getting some initial health benefits, even over what I got from an RVLC diet, such as increased alertness, before, after c 3 weeks into RZC, starting to suffer from worse and worse health problems until I had to give  RZC up. I presume I am someone who only needs a tiny amount of carbs every so often. I also trust people like  Lex or Wodgina or Ioanna who seem to do just fine minus any iodine supplementation. Now, maybe  those successful on RZC have larger livers or better thyroid functions than people like me, who knows? At any rate, such claims are way less bizarre than this peddling of harmful  "resistant starch".
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: goodsamaritan on February 06, 2014, 12:10:50 am
You guys may be talking about aquatic life from brackish water, rivers, lakes... not just from the ocean?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 06, 2014, 12:22:15 am
Looks like there are some who really got worse with raw ZC. Like Brad on our forum

Quote
Hi Juzeza,

Its been a while but I think I went zero carb for about 3-4months, I would say going Zero Carb was the most detrimental thing I have ever done to my health, and I've done a lot of bad shit, lol.  My body completely crashed, weight dropped off, my body demineralised and I almost died.  I've found that a small amount of carbs is necessary for optimum health, either from Raw Honey, fruit, veggies (even cooked) or raw dairy. I would say around 5% of caloric intake. Whatever works for the individual.  I would listen to your body and try not to get carried away with a specific type of diet touted by many, even if it worked for them.  There are no rules and no ones keeping score.

Brady

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/before-and-after-photos/brady's-before-and-after-pics-gained-20kg-in-3-months/50/ (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/before-and-after-photos/brady's-before-and-after-pics-gained-20kg-in-3-months/50/)

I wonder about many things. Looks we all need to be careful and listen to our body. But we sure live in a very unnatural world most of us. So even if raw zerocarb could be ideal in a natural environment human today might need some help from other sources. What those are we just need to figure out as it seems to be very different. No one knows how Brad would have done if he had taken Iodine supplements or lots of seafood with his RZC

I often think, it is so freaking hard to know when you do not try all the variables. How can we say what worked or what not in the end... weird world.  ;)

I just know for me close to zerocarb is just awesome. Some days I am zerocarb and some days I have a few carbs, like seaweeds, raw onions, some nuts. In summer/fall I eat as much wild berries as I want, and it is much! And also some other stuff from the garden. I do think seasonal eating is best. And I do ice baths too. I just was two minutes in the 0 degree C river.. I never regret it. Makes me feel so awesome. So maybe cold could be a factor too. At least here up north were it is cold in winter.

I also do coconut oil, raw and high quality. That helps too at least in the beginning of changing to a fatburner.

It is just, we can share what we do, and how it works for us. And be honest and tell when we get issues too. That way we can all learn.  :)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 06, 2014, 12:26:03 am
You guys may be talking about aquatic life from brackish water, rivers, lakes... not just from the ocean?

Seafood from lakes and rivers have some Iodine too and other important minerals
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: goodsamaritan on February 06, 2014, 12:29:17 am
Looks like there are some who really got worse with raw ZC. Like Brad on our forum

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/before-and-after-photos/brady's-before-and-after-pics-gained-20kg-in-3-months/50/ (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/before-and-after-photos/brady's-before-and-after-pics-gained-20kg-in-3-months/50/)

I wonder about many things. Looks we all need to be careful and listen to our body. But we sure live in a very unnatural world most of us. So even if raw zerocarb could be ideal in a natural environment human today might need some help from other sources. What those are we just need to figure out as it seems to be very different. No one knows how Brad would have done if he had taken Iodine supplements or lots of seafood with his RZC

I often think, it is so freaking hard to know when you do not try all the variables. How can we say what worked or what not in the end... weird world.  ;)

I just know for me close to zerocarb is just awesome. Some days I am zerocarb and some days I have a few carbs, like seaweeds, raw onions, some nuts. In summer/fall I eat as much wild berries as I want, and it is much! And also some other stuff from the garden. I do think seasonal eating is best. And I do ice baths too. I just was two minutes in the 0 degree C river.. I never regret it. Makes me feel so awesome. So maybe cold could be a factor too. At least here up north were it is cold in winter.

I also do coconut oil, raw and high quality. That helps too at least in the beginning of changing to a fatburner.

It is just, we can share what we do, and how it works for us. And be honest and tell when we get issues too. That way we can all learn.  :)

Geographically we are far apart, living in various places, where as I learned that nutrition stuff is not evenly spread out across the globe... the kind of nutrition is also variable... so many factors.  I'm just so glad Geoff / Tyler decided Raw Zero Carb to be included in this forum.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 06, 2014, 12:31:29 am
Tyler... maybe your thyroid is really bad. Maybe you have lots of bromide/chloride/fluoride toxins in your body?

Did you had to eat fluoride pills as a kid? I did. Very sad I think today. Those poisons are not easy to get rid of I can tell you... I do believe Iodine supplementation can help with that. I am not 100% sure about that yet tho, but I tend to think it is very useful thing for most, at least the one who got lots of those other halides. It just needs to be done carefully and slowly.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: eveheart on February 06, 2014, 12:32:41 am
I started supplementing Iodide at 50mg for the first few years. As I tweaked my diet and started getting adequate companion nutrients I noticed I needed less and less. I would think for RPDieters a good dose to start at would be around the lowest recommended dose which is around 6.5mg. You should also look into Dr. Brownstein's Iodine research.  I personally stick with IODIDE supplements and not elemental IODINE as Iodide is sourced from food. Some doctors claim that you need both Iodide and Iodine because certain tissues/glands require the elemental version (Iodine) over Iodide but it has been proven that the body can convert Iodide to Iodine when needed.

24isours, I have skimmed your journal to try to put your success into perspective, and I have followed Dr. Brownstein's recommendations myself.

While my VLC raw paleo makes me feel great (mental clarity, low inflammation, excellent blood sugar levels, etc.), my blood work in the auto-immune department (thyroid and other involvement) remains the same: I have not improved my glandular function, and I still test positive for antibodies).

Do you have any personal blood-test evidence that shows improvement that would be attributed to Brownstein's protocol and not to elimination of dairy, gluten, etc?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 06, 2014, 12:47:36 am
Well, it was obvious from the start, that many of us would need to go down  different paths to regain their health
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 06, 2014, 12:49:33 am
Tyler... maybe your thyroid is really bad. Maybe you have lots of bromide/chloride/fluoride toxins in your body?

Did you had to eat fluoride pills as a kid? I did. Very sad I think today. Those poisons are not easy to get rid of I can tell you... I do believe Iodine supplementation can help with that. I am not 100% sure about that yet tho, but I tend to think it is very useful thing for most, at least the one who got lots of those other halides. It just needs to be done carefully and slowly.
Never had to ingest fluoride pills! Also, I was in Austria for most of my childhood where the water comes  straight from the mountains. And, no my thyroid seems fine, at any rate, I do not seem to have any of the thyroid-related health problems I had had pre-RPD diet.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 06, 2014, 04:27:58 am
Tyler:

Quote
The water beneath their feet? You mean, the ice above the ground! Err, fish do not generally enjoy swimming in glaciers and the like.  To answer your question, to have access they would have needed to be near a river to get freshwater(not seawater) fish, which is no guarantee. Migrating tribes would have rather relied on pemmican and similiar foods, judging from sources, in order to sustain themselves rather than eating  seafood.

Just like Inger said, seafood from lakes and rivers also contain Iodine.
Iodine is also abundant in polar atmospheres. Didn't the Arctic Tribes melt ice and snow for water as well?

Check this out:

'The volatilisation of iodine from the ocean and release to the atmosphere in the ice-covered polar regions has been studied. Laboratory experiments involving sea ice- and ice associated- diatoms have shown how the extreme conditions experienced in sea ice brine channels may lead to an increase in production of organic forms of iodine. Trends were observed in production by different classes of enzymes, active in the oxidative metabolism of the cell. An enhancement in trace gas concentrations due to the concentration effect of solvent volume reduction has also been demonstrated. Field campaigns have been undertaken in both the Arctic and Antarctic. Ship-based measurements in the Weddell Sea have implicated I2 as a key species in the mechanism of enhancement of atmospheric iodine in this region. Organic and inorganic forms of iodine were measured in seawater, sea ice and the atmosphere. On the Brunt ice shelf, enhanced concentrations of CH3I and C2H5I were measured in the snow firn air, with a diurnal profile, suggesting the snow may be a source of these compounds. These measurements have implications for atmospheric mixing ratios of IO, measured from the ship and validated by satellite data, and new particle formation. This is the first combined in situ study in Antarctica of organic and inorganic iodine compounds in sea water, ice and air. On the Western Antarctic Peninsula, IO was detected in the atmosphere, and seawater measurements of iodocarbons have demonstrated how organic compounds of iodine are enhanced during the phytoplankton bloom; these measurements are also a first. Iodine emissions in the sea ice zone were also quantified in two campaigns in the Arctic environment. High concentrations of halocarbons were measured in the brine of sea ice, with respect to the water below, in the Arctic Ocean. High atmospheric halocarbon mixing ratios and flux calculations have demonstrated the effect on the atmosphere above. In the Canadian sub-Arctic, where the ice had quite different physical properties, halocarbon concentrations were the highest ever recorded for some compounds, due to extreme concentration in very cold ice. The enhancement of organic forms of iodine in sea ice has therefore been demonstrated. I2 has been implicated as a key species in iodine emissions. Therefore, understanding has been furthered on the chemistry of iodine in sea ice and polar atmosphere. - See more at: http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.569386#sthash.zHE4xS55.dpuf' (http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.569386#sthash.zHE4xS55.dpuf')

It seems Iodine is plentiful in polar regions.
---------------

Quote
I did suffer when I transitioned to a wholly  RZC diet around that time, but I started then actually getting some initial health benefits, even over what I got from an RVLC diet, such as increased alertness, before, after c 3 weeks into RZC, starting to suffer from worse and worse health problems until I had to give  RZC up

I'm not toting Iodine as a cure all as most likely other factors could have been involved with you not being successful on your RZC journey. Maybe you weren't getting enough fat solubles? Vitamin D? Vitamin A? I don't know..

Quote
I also trust people like  Lex or Wodgina or Ioanna who seem to do just fine minus any iodine supplementation. Now, maybe  those successful on RZC have larger livers or better thyroid functions than people like me, who knows? At any rate, such claims are way less bizarre than this peddling of harmful  "resistant starch".

Less bizarre, but still bizarre? Lol, Tyler...  ;D I'm not familiar with the way Wodgina or Ioanna go about their diets. They are completely RZC? I know Lex was having some problems initially with the diet and he mentioned that he had low Vitamin D levels and laying out in the sun helped him with his teeth.  Personally, I've noticed after getting more sun I had a dramatic increase in exercise tolerance on this diet.

Eveheart:


Quote
24isours, I have skimmed your journal to try to put your success into perspective, and I have followed Dr. Brownstein's recommendations myself.

While my VLC raw paleo makes me feel great (mental clarity, low inflammation, excellent blood sugar levels, etc.), my blood work in the auto-immune department (thyroid and other involvement) remains the same: I have not improved my glandular function, and I still test positive for antibodies).

At one point I started noticing I was actually becoming hyperthyroid from such a large dose of Iodine. At time I'd have symptoms of hypothyroid as well. It wasn't until I lowered my dose down to single digit milligram levels I started feeling better. I would think that taking Iodine at such a high dose while following a RPD (assuming it contains enough glandular supportive nutrients) can actually cause problems. There have been several studies of long term high dose Iodine supplementation causing all sorts of problems for people, including autoimmune issues. Are you taking a high dose? If so, maybe this could be keeping you from seeing improvements? How is your Vitamin D level?

Quote
Do you have any personal blood-test evidence that shows improvement that would be attributed to Brownstein's protocol and not to elimination of dairy, gluten, etc?

Regarding gluten and dairy, I know they both can really take a toll on thyroid function. Eliminating both surely did improve my health but I was still having problems. It wasn't until I started RZC when I noticed the greatest improvement in health. I began eliminating dairy and gluten about the same time I started the Iodine protocol. During the Iodine protocol I did a lot of experimenting with my diet/lifestyle and eventually came to conclusion that supplementing was causing me problems. It seemed the longer I had taken the Iodine while improving my Vitamin A and D levels the less I needed. Maybe the improvements weren't caused by the Iodine at all, I don't know. Research indicates most of us are deficient in the mineral and it is proven to help keep the thyroid in working order and the body cleansed of heavy metals, toxins, radiation, etc.. I guess if I stop supplementing Iodine and start noticing changes in my health I would know if it had a significant impact on my health gains but I don't think I'd want to ..

I do not have any blood tests. I actually haven't gotten any blood tests since starting RZC.

I'm not telling anyone what to do or what to supplement with, or at least I don't mean to. If I come across that way I do apologize but I'm just sharing what is currently working for me and hope it can help others in some way. Thank you all for the discussion and it is great to be a part of this forum.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 06, 2014, 04:35:49 am
I know nothing about a foolish craze for  inadequate foods like tigernuts but if they did so, it was only because better, healthier foods were not so readily available.
Why would chufas / tigernuts be inadequate? Since it can be found wild and can be very tasty for a lot of people, what’s wrong? Our paleo ancestors certainly ate it sometimes.
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_esculentus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyperus_esculentus) Cyperus esculentus (or chufa sedge, nut grass, yellow nutsedge, tigernut sedge, or earth almond) is a crop of the sedge family native to warm temperate to subtropical regions of the Northern Hemisphere. It can be found wild, as a weed or as a crop. It has been cultivated since the fourth millennium BC in Egypt, and for several centuries in Southern Europe.

Nutritional value

Despite its name, tigernut is a tuber. However, its chemical composition shares characteristics with tubers and with nuts. It has been reported to be a “health” food, since its consumption can help prevent heart disease and thrombosis and is said to activate blood circulation and reduce the risk of colon cancer.[14] This tuber is rich in energy content (starch, fat, sugar, and protein), minerals (mainly phosphorus and potassium), and vitamins E and C thus making this tuber also suitable for diabetics. Tigernut tubers contain almost twice the quantity of starch as potato or sweet potato tubers. The oil of the tuber was found to contain 18% saturated (palmitic acid and stearic acid) and 82% unsaturated (oleic acid and linoleic acid) fatty acids.[15] The moderately high content of phytosterols further enriches the quality and value of tigernut oil as a food source.
What is a “healthy” food? Sorry, I don’t understand this concept of “healthy foods”. Why would there be foods always “healthy” for everyone at every time and in every amount? I only mention the paragraph “Nutritional value” of Wikipedia for info, not because I care about such considerations / suppositions.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 06, 2014, 04:52:17 am
I'm not familiar with the way Wodgina or Ioanna go about their diets

Neither am I, especially about Wodgina. The only things I ever read on his posts is grudge on women and that he surfs. LOL!  :)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: eveheart on February 06, 2014, 09:51:45 am
At one point I started noticing I was actually becoming hyperthyroid from such a large dose of Iodine. At time I'd have symptoms of hypothyroid as well. It wasn't until I lowered my dose down to single digit milligram levels I started feeling better. I would think that taking Iodine at such a high dose while following a RPD (assuming it contains enough glandular supportive nutrients) can actually cause problems. There have been several studies of long term high dose Iodine supplementation causing all sorts of problems for people, including autoimmune issues. Are you taking a high dose? If so, maybe this could be keeping you from seeing improvements? How is your Vitamin D level?

I get TSH, Vitamin D, and a few other blood tests done 2 - 4 times per year. My Vitamin D levels have ranged between 50 and 90 for the last 3 years. My TSH didn't budge with iodine supplementation at any level. I've paid good money to well-regarded naturopaths, and I am not pursuing that type of treatment now. I think I understand the biological premise of auto-immune disorders, but perhaps there is too much damage for treatment to yield results. I prefer seaweed and seafood over supplements. All things considered, I get lots of mileage from RPD.

Quote
I'm not telling anyone what to do or what to supplement with, or at least I don't mean to. If I come across that way I do apologize but I'm just sharing what is currently working for me and hope it can help others in some way. Thank you all for the discussion and it is great to be a part of this forum.

You did not come across wrong in any way; I just wanted to put your experience into perspective. Age, big-city pollution, and decades of vegetarianism are a significant factors for me. (I'm old enough to be your grandmother. I love saying that LOL).

Thanks for your response.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 06, 2014, 09:22:40 pm
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I get TSH, Vitamin D, and a few other blood tests done 2 - 4 times per year. My Vitamin D levels have ranged between 50 and 90 for the last 3 years. My TSH didn't budge with iodine supplementation at any level. I've paid good money to well-regarded naturopaths, and I am not pursuing that type of treatment now. I think I understand the biological premise of auto-immune disorders, but perhaps there is too much damage for treatment to yield results. I prefer seaweed and seafood over supplements. All things considered, I get lots of mileage from RPD.

Have you completely eliminated gluten, dairy, and possible allergenic foods like eggs?

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You did not come across wrong in any way; I just wanted to put your experience into perspective. Age, big-city pollution, and decades of vegetarianism are a significant factors for me. (I'm old enough to be your grandmother. I love saying that LOL).

Good to hear and hey... grandmas are full of wisdom :]
I'm sure you look great for your age.

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: eveheart on February 06, 2014, 09:54:09 pm
Have you completely eliminated gluten, dairy, and possible allergenic foods like eggs?

I sure have, and that accounts for how well I feel. Joint inflammation is a great warning for me that a food is not right.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 06, 2014, 11:14:55 pm
Why would chufas / tigernuts be inadequate? Since it can be found wild and can be very tasty for a lot of people, what’s wrong? Our paleo ancestors certainly ate it sometimes.
  I was thinking of a  recent tribe which routinely ate lots of starchy tubers but found that they tasted vile compared to much better foods like raw wild game.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 06, 2014, 11:44:12 pm
I sure have, and that accounts for how well I feel. Joint inflammation is a great warning for me that a food is not right.


Joint inflammation comes around if I start eating anything from the nightshade family or food high in phytic acid.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 07, 2014, 01:55:07 am
Hi 24isours,

I like your posts, they give the impression that you are intelligent and rational.
However, I never understood the ZC/VLC concept. I understand Inger's reasons but even she is not ZC.
Which rationale did motivate you to go ZC? What gave you this idea? A specific disease?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 07, 2014, 10:16:40 pm
Hi 24isours,

I like your posts, they give the impression that you are intelligent and rational.
However, I never understood the ZC/VLC concept. I understand Inger's reasons but even she is not ZC.
Which rationale did motivate you to go ZC? What gave you this idea? A specific disease?

Thank you , Hanna.

Well, for me the Zero Carb concept hadn't even come to mind until I had familiarized myself with the harmful effects cooked food has on the body. Shortly after tweaking my diet to about 50% raw I started noticing improved health. As I continued researching the harmful effects of certain foods I starting reading about anti nutrients, gluten, dairy, and food allergies. I slowly started eliminating gluten and dairy from there on and my health continued to improve (more energy, clearer thinking, better skin). At this point I had still been eating grains, nuts and vegetables. I eventually started to see my health decline while eating this way. It was becoming harder and harder to stay awake at work and I wasn't feeling as strong. After incorporating more meat into my diet (specifically red meat) I started getting stronger. By this time, my diet probably consisted of seven different things: Chicken, beef, salad, quinoa, potatoes, seeds, and nuts. I was feeling pretty good other than having bouts of inflammation in my jaw and joints, and moderate fatigue. So I started researching again and ran into the Paleo Diet (and RPD). From there on I started eliminating grains, seeds and nuts completely due to the high content of anti nutrients. The amount of preparation required to actually get nutritional value out of such foods and their harmful effects on the body just wasn't making sense to me. Then a light bulb popped up in my head... Raw food makes sense! All of these anti nutrients, toxins from cooked food, nutrients that weren't even bioavailable/digestable unless cooked.... it just didn't seem rational to continue eating this way if I wanted to achieve optimal health. So I weighed it out; when I cook this food, I'll be able to get more nutrients out of it (great!!!) but at the same time I'm still filling my body with toxins, anti nutrients, indigestible fibers that will just rot in my colon.. hmmm...
So, I decided I'll take the most nutrient dense, bioavailable, raw food to be the staple of my diet, red meat.

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: aLptHW4k4y on February 08, 2014, 02:53:29 am
Whatever the case, given the poor nutritional content of foods rich in resistant starch, I can be certain that RS foods are by no means "superfoods".
You'd eat small amounts of those resistant starch foods, i.e. it is a supplement rather than a whole food to solely exist on. The nutritional content is irrelevant, as their effect comes from maintaining a happier gut. At least that's how I understand what these resistant starch proponents are saying, whether it has such a huge impact on health is a different story..
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 08, 2014, 04:36:03 am
I agree with aLptHW4k4y.

This fear of antinutrients is irrelevant if we follow our alimentary instinct. Anything ingested in excess becomes anti-nutrient. Dietary science has only a very fragmentary understanding of what happens in metabolism. Things are extremely complex. A stuff being nutritious or beneficial for someone at a given time in a given amount may be noxious for somebody else in the same amount.

By following our alimentary instinct, we benefit right now of the future dietary science  findings!

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Excerpts of Wikipedia:
Excessive intake of required nutrients can also result in them having an anti-nutrient action.

While some clinical studies have suggested flavonoids have a role in cancer prevention, others have been inconclusive or suggested they may be harmful. Such conflicting findings have been attributed, in part, to the fact that many of the studies are retrospective in design and use a small sample size.[37]

Antinutrients are found at some level in almost all foods for a variety of reasons. However, their levels are reduced in modern crops, probably as an outcome of the process of domestication.[11] The possibility now exists to eliminate antinutrients entirely using genetic engineering; but, since these compounds may also have beneficial effects, such genetic modifications could make the foods more nutritious but not improve people's health.[12]


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http://breakingmuscle.com/nutrition/dissecting-anti-nutrients-the-good-and-bad-of-phytic-acid
One of the easiest mistakes to make in the world of nutrition is to assume that any nutrient or substance behaves in just one way, whether it’s good or bad. Truth is, the body is much more unique and complex than we can truly understand, and stuff we eat tends to have many different functions once it’s inside of us. Every person, though sharing similar nutrient needs, is going to respond differently and accommodate foods, such as those containing phytic acid, more or less easily than others. Keep an open mind, think critically, and don’t lose sight of the forest for the trees.


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http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/070111p54.shtml
A New Perspective
Food scientists have known about the existence of many antinutrients, but they are just scratching the surface when it comes to understanding these substances’ overall function in human health. A new theory is beginning to emerge that suggests low levels of antinutrients may contain beneficial properties for the body. This shouldn’t come as a surprise since a body of evidence links the consumption of whole plant foods with a range of health benefits.

“There are some misconceptions with regards to what antinutrients are and their impact on human health. By definition, antinutrients are compounds, either natural or synthetic, that prevent the utilization of nutrients,” says Rao. “As a result of this concept, antinutrients were considered by nutritionists as being undesirable and compounds that needed to be removed from our foods by processing or genetics. However, recent research has shown that what we consider as antinutrients may in fact be beneficial to our health.”

Rao points to dietary fiber as a good example of how antinutrients may actually be beneficial. Long ago, there was no known nutritional role for dietary fiber. In fact, according to Rao, researchers believed that dietary fiber could bind to minerals and some other nutrients and make them unavailable. As a result, cereal-processing technology was developed in the late 1800s to remove or reduce dietary fiber from cereals and flours.

Today, we know dietary fiber serves a very important role in human health. Fiber is now considered to play a role in preventing cancer, cardiovascular diseases, diabetes, and many other chronic human diseases. “So dietary fiber, once thought to be an antinutrient, is now considered beneficial,” says Rao.

The viewpoint on antinutrients has changed to such an extent in the scientific community that Rao reports these substances are increasingly referred to as “biologically active compounds” in food.

“Our early research with dietary fiber contributed considerably to this change in thinking. Following on the dietary fiber work, we have conducted extensive research on several other so-called antinutrients, such as saponins, trypsin inhibitors, and lectins, and showed that they may play a role in the prevention of human chronic diseases, such as cancer, cardiovascular diseases, diabetes, and several other human health disorders,” says Rao. “The question seems to be one of concentrations in terms of their effects, going from nutritional to pharmacological to toxic.”

Scientists now have a fairly good understanding of antinutrients’ mechanisms of action, but more research is needed to better understand their role in human health. Ironically, some compounds on the list of antinutrients are now referred to as “nutraceuticals” or “functional foods” because of their demonstrated beneficial effects on human health.
Perhaps in the near future, the chapter on antinutrients in nutrition textbooks will bear another name.


— Sharon Palmer, RD, is a contributing editor at Today’s Dietitian and a freelance food and nutrition writer in southern California.

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 08, 2014, 05:04:16 am
Iguana, antinutrients are vitally important. I mean, there are plenty of poisonous, toxic plants which can maim us or kill us, why should we even try to eat them?  Your idea is ridiculous, therefore.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 08, 2014, 05:46:13 am
We won't try to eat them unless we are extremely hungry, and if we try we will spit them immediately: toxic plants are horribly bitter.

There are extremely few exceptions — if there are some at all, which I'm quite unsure.

Which idea of mine expressed above is ridiculous?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 08, 2014, 05:50:58 am
Try eating part of an amanita phalloides mushroom and then tell me how ridiculous that is, that is, if you are still alive to do so!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 08, 2014, 05:53:18 am
GCB did it in a TV appearance. He's still alive!

Edit: no, sorry it seems it was not on TV. Here is the story:
http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggraw_eat2.html (http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggraw_eat2.html)
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_So, you would serve a “death cap” on your dinner table without turning a hair?

o After some period of rethinking, yes. That might sound surprising. That anxiety and mistrust one feels when confronted with nature precisely follows from a loss of instinct_or, rather, its having fallen into disuse. (Even I am lapsing into traditional platitudes.) That reminds me of a journalist who didn’t want to give my ideas a fair hearing. One day, she brought me a whole assortment of mushrooms from a mycologic exhibition, blindfolded me, and asked me how my nose reacted to the stimuli. In the lot, unknown to me, there was a death cap. I smelled it; it didn’t smell too strong, but was slightly off-putting_or noxious, as mycologists might say. If I had been an animal, I would have never tried it. Since I was a man, out of curiosity, I put the quarter of the cap in my mouth and I chewed it for a while to see what would happen. As I chewed on, the flavor turned increasingly musty. Though the taste was not particularly revolting, it was nonetheless bland, and somewhat sickly. I would have never swallowed it. I didn’t take things any further.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: nummi on February 08, 2014, 06:37:44 am
Isn't toxicity and lethality based on a person on a version of SAD diet?
Very much possible that which a SAD dieter finds far too toxic, perhaps even lethal, in our case could have some beneficial effect (if aside toxicity any at all), or aid against some illness or such, as we are in a better overall condition and better equipped against such effects in general. (Not into experimenting this...)
There are berries that are toxic, but then aren't berries supposed to be, evolutionarily speaking, food for animals (to spread the seeds)? Why else would they have flesh around the seeds?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 08, 2014, 07:49:51 am
  I was thinking of a  recent tribe which routinely ate lots of starchy tubers but found that they tasted vile compared to much better foods like raw wild game.
Tyler, instead of relying on notions about some tribe (I think it was the Hadza of Africa?), why not try them yourself, if they are available to you? Who knows, you might find that you like chufas/tigernuts, which doesn't seem out of the question, given that Iguana likes them.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 08, 2014, 07:58:56 am
You'd eat small amounts of those resistant starch foods, i.e. it is a supplement rather than a whole food to solely exist on. The nutritional content is irrelevant, as their effect comes from maintaining a happier gut. At least that's how I understand what these resistant starch proponents are saying, whether it has such a huge impact on health is a different story..
The main point is to feed your gut bugs in addition to yourself, yes. Also, the gut bugs in turn provide you with some important nutrients and/or improved absorption of nutrients (such as butyric acid and b vitamins), as I understand it (though I'm no expert, as I'm pretty new to it myself).
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: LePatron7 on February 08, 2014, 12:57:50 pm
I personally would like to keep out of the VLC/ZC and higher carb debate. But in regards to resistant starch, I get very little resistant starch, if any at all.

My diet is a raw version of the specific carbohydrate diet, which strives to eliminate any and all indigestible carbohydrates (except for fiber, cellulose, etc.). I do pretty well on it. Therefore I get very little, maybe no resistant starch.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: eveheart on February 08, 2014, 01:43:49 pm
My diet is a raw version of the specific carbohydrate diet, which strives to eliminate any and all indigestible carbohydrates (except for fiber, cellulose, etc.). I do pretty well on it. Therefore I get very little, maybe no resistant starch.

I took a quick peek at the SCD-legal foods list, and I saw plenty of foods that contain resistant starch. RS is just one of those common components of many plant foods, even if you are not paying any attention to it.

Are you saying that you are specifically avoiding plant foods and therefore RS, or that you are not targeting it?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: LePatron7 on February 08, 2014, 01:53:16 pm
I took a quick peek at the SCD-legal foods list, and I saw plenty of foods that contain resistant starch. RS is just one of those common components of many plant foods, even if you are not paying any attention to it.

Are you saying that you are specifically avoiding plant foods and therefore RS, or that you are not targeting it?

No, I stick to SCD legal foods. I thought they avoid resistant, and all starch. Which food include it?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: eveheart on February 08, 2014, 02:10:04 pm
No, I stick to SCD legal foods. I thought they avoid resistant, and all starch. Which food include it?

RS is "different" - I'll let you check out some of the links to lists and definitions on your own - but it's the stuff that does not break down in digestion like a carb macronutrient and then it becomes the medium that good gut bacteria can thrive on. Trying to put a standard "starch" definition on it is misleading, because we typically think of starch = carbohydrate.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 08, 2014, 03:48:40 pm
Isn't toxicity and lethality based on a person on a version of SAD diet?
Very much possible that which a SAD dieter finds far too toxic, perhaps even lethal, in our case could have some beneficial effect (if aside toxicity any at all), or aid against some illness or such, as we are in a better overall condition and better equipped against such effects in general. (Not into experimenting this...)
There are berries that are toxic, but then aren't berries supposed to be, evolutionarily speaking, food for animals (to spread the seeds)? Why else would they have flesh around the seeds?

Toxicity depends on the dose. A food is beneficial when eaten in the proper amount. Go beyond that amount and it becomes at least detrimental and at worse deadly. When a stuff  is processed, cooked or mixed, it turns out to be difficult or impossible to feel what’s the right amount (it may even be nil)  and poisoning can happen.

Moreover, the habit of eating something because we’ve been taught it’s nutritious and good for us should be discarded. Animals don’t behave that way: they are constantly vigilant, not only about the appearance of a danger around, predator or anything, but also in continuous interrogative state about what they should eat and not to eat. If they fail to do so, they put themselves in an inferior health state and jeopardize their chances of survival, the natural selection wiping out the weakest ones.

We are led to think that we know better than animals, that our science and knowledge place us above them. In the nutritional field, it’s a big mistake: when in an unspoiled environment, animals know better than us what to eat and what not to eat. But of course, just like ours, their instinct is mislead by artificially processed stuff which had never been in the environment before mankind spread it.         
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: aLptHW4k4y on February 08, 2014, 03:49:31 pm
Yes Iguana exactly, we can't just assume some food is good or bad based on what scientists have discovered by now about it's nutritional composition. Knowing how much protein, fat, vitamin B or antinutrients it has means largely nothing, because there are so many other factors, interactions and effects that have not been quantified. Going by your gut feeling about foods therefore seems like the most reliable way to determine if it's good or bad, because it has been trained and developed over millions of years. But we can't trust it over newer neolithic foods, and especially not preprocessed stuff which has been specifically tailored to trick our senses.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 08, 2014, 09:24:08 pm
Some anti nutrients may be beneficial in small amounts, I get it but at which dose do they start having negative effects? This is of course a very complex question. It seems most of these benefits that come from anti nutrients and fiber benefit those with medical problems that are most likely caused by the SAD, no? How do these beneficial factors of anti nutrients and fibers fit into a diet like mine? Well, I don't feel the need to eat anything other than meat/fat.
Are these alimentary instincts based on foods you crave as well?
It seems the only time I crave something sweet is if I'm unable to get in some good exercise. After exercising the craving completely diminishes. The same thing happens for most people and it has to do with the increased serotonin production/release from exercise. Eating a bowl of cherries or pasta has been known to have a similar affect on serotonin. I'd rather choose exercise.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 08, 2014, 10:39:32 pm
Some anti nutrients may be beneficial in small amounts, I get it but at which dose do they start having negative effects?
It’s the same for every food: when we have enough of it we feel it, either by the stuff  becoming less and less tasty or by any other feeling such as a slight nausea, for example. This works well enough only with raw, unprocessed, unmixed, unseasoned paleo or nearly paleo stuff.   

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This is of course a very complex question. It seems most of these benefits that come from anti nutrients and fiber benefit those with medical problems that are most likely caused by the SAD, no?
It’s possible, and we are more or less all in this case. But most wild animals also regularly eat foods containing what is called “anti-nutrients”.

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How do these beneficial factors of anti nutrients and fibers fit into a diet like mine? Well, I don't feel the need to eat anything other than meat/fat.
If you’re fully satisfied that way and are never attracted by the smell of other raw foods, then maybe meat and fat are the only foods you need at this time. But such a condition normally doesn’t last more than few months. At least you should check from time to time by smelling all the other foods you stumble upon. In the wild, meat of large mammals is not always very easy to obtain!   

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Are these alimentary instincts based on foods you crave as well?
It seems the only time I crave something sweet is if I'm unable to get in some good exercise. After exercising the craving completely diminishes. The same thing happens for most people and it has to do with the increased serotonin production/release from exercise. Eating a bowl of cherries or pasta has been known to have a similar affect on serotonin. I'd rather choose exercise.
Our cravings are formed by memory of previous experiences — or worse experiences with the cooked foodstuff and when on standard cooked diet — and since our needs change over time, cravings don’t necessarily reflect our current needs. We shouldn’t rely on them, but rather on our senses of smell and taste.

I don’t know about such effect of exercise, never experienced that and it’s the first time I read something like that. After a lot of exercise I’m generally hungry, not always for meat and also I don’t always have meat at home: in Europe or when traveling around the World, meat suitable for us raw paleo dieters is not easily available. Then I may have sea fish, shellfish or eggs instead. It’s very likely much safer to alternate this way. See this GCB’s post:
 http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/is-it-dangerous-to-eat-too-much-meat/msg80452/#msg80452 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/is-it-dangerous-to-eat-too-much-meat/msg80452/#msg80452) 
 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 09, 2014, 01:15:52 am
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It’s the same for every food: when we have enough of it we feel it, either by the stuff  becoming less and less tasty or by any other feeling such as a slight nausea, for example. This works well enough only with raw, unprocessed, unmixed, unseasoned paleo or nearly paleo stuff. 

I don't agree. I could very well eat a pound of raw unprocessed macadamia nuts in a day. The next day I'll have joint inflammation all over my body as well as fatigue which is most likely caused by the anti nutrients. Did you ever think it could be possible for the body to over ride such instincts of sensing these anti nutrients, etc, because of its desperate need for satiety? None of these symptoms come about while on my ketogenic/carnivorous diet. I'll eat my meal and be completely satiated without any harmful effects. As a matter of fact the mental and physical well being I get from eating these foods cannot be matched by eating plant foods. My point is, why not consistently eat the most nutrient dense, energy dense, and bioavailable food (meat/fat)?

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If you’re fully satisfied that way and are never attracted by the smell of other raw foods, then maybe meat and fat are the only foods you need at this time. But such a condition normally doesn’t last more than few months. At least you should check from time to time by smelling all the other foods you stumble upon. In the wild, meat of large mammals is not always very easy to obtain!

Before agriculture came about, why is there any reason to believe that copious amounts of meat and fat weren't always available for human consumption? The Paleolithic Era was known for it's megafauna.



Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 09, 2014, 01:29:52 am
It’s the same for every food: when we have enough of it we feel it, either by the stuff  becoming less and less tasty or by any other feeling such as a slight nausea, for example. This works well enough only with raw, unprocessed, unmixed, unseasoned paleo or nearly paleo stuff.   
It’s possible, and we are more or less all in this case. But most wild animals also regularly eat foods containing what is called “anti-nutrients”.
If you’re fully satisfied that way and are never attracted by the smell of other raw foods, then maybe meat and fat are the only foods you need at this time. But such a condition normally doesn’t last more than few months. At least you should check from time to time by smelling all the other foods you stumble upon. In the wild, meat of large mammals is not always very easy to obtain!   
Our cravings are formed by memory of previous experiences — or worse experiences with the cooked foodstuff and when on standard cooked diet — and since our needs change over time, cravings don’t necessarily reflect our current needs. We shouldn’t rely on them, but rather on our senses of smell and taste.

I don’t know about such effect of exercise, never experienced that and it’s the first time I read something like that. After a lot of exercise I’m generally hungry, not always for meat and also I don’t always have meat at home: in Europe or when traveling around the World, meat suitable for us raw paleo dieters is not easily available. Then I may have sea fish, shellfish or eggs instead. It’s very likely much safer to alternate this way. See this GCB’s post:
 http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/is-it-dangerous-to-eat-too-much-meat/msg80452/#msg80452 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/is-it-dangerous-to-eat-too-much-meat/msg80452/#msg80452) 
 I think that there probably exists a huge difference between GCB's advise on eating too much meat,, in that while at Orkos, time after time,  I witnessed long time instinctive eaters eat very large portions of meat.  In my opinion,  they ate more protein than the body could use for maintenance and repair,, thus the rest was an overload for those purposes, and the byproduct of that excess is toxic to some degree.   This is what I think GCB meant.  As opposed to eating smaller amounts of meat more frequently to sustain the body's need for protein for maintenance and repair.  I have significantly cut down my portions of protein, and spread them through out the day and feel all the better.   If one were to look at a hunter gatherer (especially as Iguana likes to point out that big animals were not always available) through out the day, he/she would have eaten all sorts of small protein critters, including frogs, insects, snakes, snails, eggs etc..  thus more or less grazing.   I doubt that 'they' collected small bits of food and at the end of the day ate it all.  But whether or not, I still think it's an overload for the body to ever eat more protein than what the body needs for maintenance and repair.      Of course if one doesn't have additional carbs or fats and will starve without the calories converted to glucose from excess protein, than that's a different story.

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 09, 2014, 01:36:38 am
I don't agree. I could very well eat a pound of raw unprocessed macadamia nuts in a day. The next day I'll have joint inflammation all over my body as well as fatigue which is most likely caused by the anti nutrients. Did you ever think it could be possible for the body to over ride such instincts of sensing these anti nutrients, etc, because of its desperate need for satiety? None of these symptoms come about while on my ketogenic/carnivorous diet. I'll eat my meal and be completely satiated without any harmful effects. As a matter of fact the mental and physical well being I get from eating these foods cannot be matched by eating plant foods. My point is, why not consistently eat the most nutrient dense, energy dense, and bioavailable food (meat/fat)?

Before agriculture came about, why is there any reason to believe that copious amounts of meat and fat weren't always available for human consumption? The Paleolithic Era was known for it's megafauna.





  In smelling 'other' foods, which ones do we have today that would have around 'back then'?   This is a point that has already been debated... but an apple, orange, grape... is  going to have a most different smell than it's counterpart thousands of years ago.   Today they are bred for color, taste, and smell...    And yes, there are some fruits like wild berries and figs that  are still pretty much intact as how they were.   But for any of us here, to go into even a very big organic store and expect to find fruits of original status, is next to impossible, unless you're GS in the tropics.   
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 09, 2014, 01:49:21 am
I absolutely agree that too much animal protein is toxic. I've made myself sick a few times overdoing it. There hasn't been any recorded advantage of consuming more than 0.64g/lb of protein. There are studies that show protein oxidizing at intakes (basically a nutrient overload) a little bit over 1g/lb of protein.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 09, 2014, 02:58:57 am
I don't agree. I could very well eat a pound of raw unprocessed macadamia nuts in a day. The next day I'll have joint inflammation all over my body as well as fatigue which is most likely caused by the anti nutrients. Did you ever think it could be possible for the body to over ride such instincts of sensing these anti nutrients, etc, because of its desperate need for satiety?

Of course, it is possible to override our alimentary instinct. Hunger may lead us to eat things we wouldn’t eat otherwise and if we are limited or limit ourselves to a single foodstuff at a meal, we tend to eat too much of it. That said, I’ve eaten hundreds kilos of macadamias since 1987 and it never triggered the joints' inflammations you talk about.

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None of these symptoms come about while on my ketogenic/carnivorous diet. I'll eat my meal and be completely satiated without any harmful effects. As a matter of fact the mental and physical well being I get from eating these foods cannot be matched by eating plant foods. My point is, why not consistently eat the most nutrient dense, energy dense, and bioavailable food (meat/fat)?

A also like to have an animal food almost everyday and feel more satisfied so, but I generally don’t feel fully satisfied with only and exclusively an animal food at a meal, except in the tropics where the climate is hot. But if you feel well so, then it’s fine. You asked questions. I tried to answer to the best of my (limited) knowledge. I can’t say more.

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Before agriculture came about, why is there any reason to believe that copious amounts of meat and fat weren't always available for human consumption? The Paleolithic Era was known for it's megafauna.

Yes, but the anthropoids had to develop hunting tactics and weapons to be able to kill big animals without putting themselves in too much danger. Almost at that time, they mastered the fire too and probably started to grill meat. Most of us should therefore be more or less adapted to grilled meat, but this is rather doubtful. Likewise, it’s likely that we are not perfectly adapted to a long-lasting everyday consumption of mammals’ meat. It’s what experience shows.

We’ll see when some zero carbers have done it during a few decades. Once again, the troubles haven’t happened immediately, but after several years only.   
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 09, 2014, 03:03:53 am
I get a negative reaction to nuts, too. Not as harmful as joint inflammation and it is much less if I soak the nuts in water for 24 hourts beforehand to get rid of some of theantinutrients.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 09, 2014, 03:12:08 am
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Yes, but the anthropoids had to develop hunting tactics and weapons to be able to kill big animals without putting themselves in too much danger.

Hence maybe one of the main reasons why we are still here and they are extinct? :)

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Almost at that time, they mastered the fire too and probably started to grill meat. Most of us should therefore be more or less adapted to grilled meat, but this is rather doubtful.

Obviously we are not adapted to cooked meat. So this would make me think fire was mostly used for hunting advantage, protection, visibility and warmth.


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Likewise, it’s likely that we are not perfectly adapted to a long-lasting everyday consumption of mammals’ meat. It’s what experience shows.

Stefansson lived 9 years on meat without any health problems. The Inuit lived their whole lives eating mammal's meat everyday.

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We’ll see when some zero carbers have done it during a few decades. Once again, the troubles haven’t happened immediately, but after several years only.   

Yes, we will see.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 09, 2014, 03:23:10 am
I could very well eat a pound of raw unprocessed macadamia nuts in a day.
Same here. I get pimples from that. However, I’m sure this is not because of the antinutrients, because I don’t get any pimples, for example, from soaked lentils, from peas, broccoli, cauliflower, walnuts or almonds, even if I eat great amounts of them. Did you have inflammations after eating any of these foods (raw, of course)? What about fruit?

There are studies that show protein oxidizing at intakes (basically a nutrient overload) a little bit over 1g/lb of protein.
You mean the protein oxidizes in the blood? What are the consequences of this oxidation of protein? Do you have a link to such a study?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 09, 2014, 03:46:26 am
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You mean the protein oxidizes in the blood? What are the consequences of this oxidation of protein? Do you have a link to such a study?

I believe it oxidizes in the liver.

Oxidative stress has been known to cause a multitude of different diseases including cancer.

Check this out:

http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/ (http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/)

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Same here. I get pimples from that. However, I’m sure this is not because of the antinutrients, because I don’t get any pimples, for example, from soaked lentils, from peas, broccoli, cauliflower, walnuts or almonds, even if I eat great amounts of them. Did you have inflammations after eating any of these foods (raw, of course)?

I have eaten sprouted almonds and pumpkin seeds but still had negative reactions. The inflammation lessens for sure but is still there. My skin also tends to get really itchy when I eat nuts and seeds. I don't remember broccoli and cauliflower being much of a problem (then again it's been a while since I have eaten them) but I did decide to avoid them after reading up on goitrogens.
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What about fruit?

Fruit is usually okay. If I eat too much I will get bloated though.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 09, 2014, 04:24:52 am
How much protein do you eat a day? You eat zero carb, so your liver has to synthesize glucose from protein. Doesn’t that mean you have to eat quite a bit protein?

After incorporating more meat into my diet (specifically red meat) I started getting stronger. By this time, my diet probably consisted of seven different things: Chicken, beef, salad, quinoa, potatoes, seeds, and nuts. I was feeling pretty good other than having bouts of inflammation in my jaw and joints, and moderate fatigue. So I started researching again and ran into the Paleo Diet (and RPD). From there on I started eliminating grains, seeds and nuts completely due to the high content of anti nutrients.

My body has become stronger and fitter too since I have increased my intake of mammal meat. Currently, I eat meat about three oder four times a week. I’m physically stronger now than I have ever been in my life. However, fish is still the best doping for my brain. Moreover, I cannot imagine that meat could replace vegetables or watery fruits for me (maybe seafood could, for a while), although I guess that animal fats (including fatty fish and a lot of bone marrow) could replace my plant fats such as nuts.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 09, 2014, 04:56:39 am
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How much protein do you eat a day? You eat zero carb, so your liver has to synthesize glucose from protein. Doesn’t that mean you have to eat quite a bit protein?
I eat about 110-120g of protein per day. I raised it recently because I've been working out more. Before I started working out harder I was at about 80-85g of protein per day. I could probably get through the day while being sedentary at 70g of protein. I've lowered my fat intake considerably as I was taking in too many calories. At one point I was eating around 270g of fat and 70g of protein while trying to go to the gym. Getting a good work out was hard until I figured out I needed more protein to repair my muscles. I slowly decreased my fat intake and upped my protein intake and right now my macronutrients are:

110-120g Protein
200g Fat
Around 2260 Calories

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My body has become stronger and fitter too since I have increased my intake of mammal meat.

That is good to hear :)

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However, fish is still the best doping for my brain. Moreover, I cannot imagine that meat could replace vegetables or watery fruits for me (maybe seafood could, for a while), although I guess that animal fats (including fatty fish and a lot of bone marrow) could replace my plant fats such as nuts.

Saturated fats are my preferred fuel. I don't do well on a lot of polyunsaturated fats for energy. I was ordering bone marrow for a while in the beginning of the diet but decided to switch over to beef or bison fat. Right now I don't have to worry about ordering extra fat as I am eating high fat ground beef mixed with organs.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 09, 2014, 05:01:08 am
Also, I eat all of this as one meal in the morning.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 09, 2014, 05:25:06 am
I personally would like to keep out of the VLC/ZC and higher carb debate. But in regards to resistant starch, I get very little resistant starch, if any at all.

My diet is a raw version of the specific carbohydrate diet, which strives to eliminate any and all indigestible carbohydrates (except for fiber, cellulose, etc.). I do pretty well on it. Therefore I get very little, maybe no resistant starch.
Along those lines, Norm Robillard had recommended in the past that everyone with Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) minimize RS, but after positive reports by some who say they have SIBO, and from lots of people in general, he has been taking another look at it, cautiously of course. He prudently suggested in a podcast interview that SIBO patients who are interested proceed with caution, starting with small amounts.

Theoretically RS could be a problem for SIBO patients, because SIBO is supposed to involve good bacteria getting into places where they don't belong, further up the intestines. I've been keeping my eyes open for negative reports of worsening SIBO and haven't seen any yet.

The two top negative reports I have seen have been for:

> excessive flatulence, usually ameliorated by reducing the amount of RS consumed to tolerance (like how people back down Magnesium dosage to avoid getting stools that are too loose)
> joint pain, usually remedied by switching to foods and/or therapeutics that are theoretically lower in the offending antigen (for example, some people reported joint pain from potato starch or potatoes that resolved when they switched to plantains and other foods or plantain flower, mung bean starch or tapioca flour)

And some other people toughed it out and the symptoms eventually went away, which they attributed to improved tolerance/adaptation or the end of a detox period. Of course, none of this can be proven and there is so much more to learn.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 09, 2014, 05:32:06 am
Saturated fats are my preferred fuel. I don't do well on a lot of polyunsaturated fats for energy.
What happens to you if you eat too much bone marrow (I guess it contains a lot of polyunsaturated fats)?
Did you (your "instinct") like the bone marrow in spite of that?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 09, 2014, 05:43:38 am
Sorry, I read that monounsaturated or saturated fat makes up the largest portion of bone marrow.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 09, 2014, 05:49:46 am

And some other people toughed it out and the symptoms eventually went away, which they attributed to improved tolerance/adaptation or the end of a detox period. Of course, none of this can be proven and there is so much more to learn.

 :) Interesting!
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 09, 2014, 07:28:31 am
Phil I'm still looking for you to show me where lots of people on vlc are being hurt??  You're certainly in the minority here on this forum, if your troubles are due to vlc.
Van, VLC includes cooked VLCers, but my guess is you'll only be interested in raw cases. Re: that, did you not see Inger's example of Brady?
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/zero-carb-and-vlcketogenic-a-lethal-recipe-for-disaster/msg119014/#msg119014 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/zero-carb-and-vlcketogenic-a-lethal-recipe-for-disaster/msg119014/#msg119014)

Another example that was recently mentioned was GCB's wife, a case with which I think Iguana is familiar, IIRC.

Of course, there will be excuses made for every failure story or problem and attempts will be made to punch holes in every study, dig site find, population group example, and so on, and the debates will be endless, just as when any dietary doctrine is being defended, so everyone will need to do their own research and testing and decide for themselves. When it comes down to it, most people put much more weight on their own experience than that of others. Unfortunately, sometimes signs go unrecognized and symptoms missed or miss-attributed.

Maybe the info I share will help someone recognize a problem they had missed. If it helps even a few people, it will have been worth it. Already at least a couple of people have thanked me and many more have thanked Tatertot Tim, Richard Nikoley and others for sharing info on RS, the potential pitfalls of VLC, and related topics.

I'm less interested in debating folks at the moment than in providing some info on this emerging topic of resistant starch and its related threads (prebiotics, the Old Friends Hypothesis, mitochondria, metabolism, cellular respiration, ...); especially in my journal, which is more a place to put my experiments, results and thoughts than to debate. I provided some links that people can check out if they're interested in learning more. There are plenty of folks at some of those links who would be happy to debate you.

Anyone who knows my history knows I'm not coming at the topic from a background of being a high-carb zealot, like an 80-10-10er or something.

Besides, when a radically new dietary approach is proposed, such as a diet chronically very low in carbs (and resistant starch), the burden of proof lies on those proposing it. I looked for strong evidence of such myself and instead over time found much evidence to the contrary.

Yes, when you drink a water which mineral content is particularly well suited to your current needs, it tastes sweet.
Interesting, thanks Iguana.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 09, 2014, 10:24:49 am
I don't understand why you would use one person who for only eating vlc or zc for three to four months did poorly,, especially with little knowledge ( or maybe you have more facts about Brady?) of what he actually ate/did.   Again, there are many here doing more than fine eating vlc, myself included now for over 8 years.   Rosedale has treated diabetic patients for over 25 years with vlc.  I would suggest contacting him to verify your results/suspicions.     My guess is that there is value in RS, and, that you've something else going on within.   I have read where constipation has been a problem for you.  Peristalsis happens by at least two mechanisms;  one being the acidic level in one's colon which triggers peristalsis, and another is simply pressure put on the colon wall by feces themselves.   You may well need to up your acidic level with the inclusion of acidic forming foods/bacteria, hence RS foods,  to compensate for possibly a pressure sensing mechanism that is faulty in your colon.    I never have had a constipation problem, but I would tend to believe that that alone could cause brain fog as you describe. 
   I am interested in what you learn from all of this and from analysis done on your poop...   Too bad you couldn't  have done some before including the RS foods,,, maybe you'll want to go off them for a while for comparison study. 
   I use to buy directly from a culture scientist  who made bacterial cultures for companies all over the world.  One of which he received a patent for that literally helped solve South Korea's problem of stomach ulcers due to bad stomach bacteria.  They incorporated his bacterial strain into yogurts that are sold like candy out of vending machines throughout Korea.   He and I speculated as to whether it made sense to actually go to Africa and collect fece samples from the healthiest Masai tribesmen living as close to their natural ways.  Then isolate the strains of bacteria, and grow them to be sold as a probiotic here in the US.   I still think it had merit. 
    And I do think that the bacteria in the colon science is going to be the Big health possibility of the future.  Should be an interesting ride  for you. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 09, 2014, 05:14:57 pm
I remember Miles:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/welcoming-commitee/zero-carber-here!/msg111415/#msg111415 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/welcoming-commitee/zero-carber-here!/msg111415/#msg111415)

Or Löwenherz:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/massive-health-problems-good-bye-raw-paleo (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/hot-topics/massive-health-problems-good-bye-raw-paleo)!/
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Cooked vegetables have been very helpful in reducing inflammation.
I remember more, but don’t remember their names anymore.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 09, 2014, 05:27:29 pm
Hence maybe one of the main reasons why we are still here and they are extinct? :)
Do you mean anthropoids are not our ancestors?

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Obviously we are not adapted to cooked meat. So this would make me think fire was mostly used for hunting advantage, protection, visibility and warmth.
We don’t know if a totally satisfactory adaptation to cooked meat (and cooked food in general) is possible and, if possible, how long it would take. Therefore, even if some of our ancestors started grilling meat just after they controlled fire, 350.000 or even perhaps 450.000 years ago, it would not insure at all that we are reasonably adapted to grilled or cooked  meat. 

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Stefansson lived 9 years on meat without any health problems. The Inuit lived their whole lives eating mammal's meat everyday.
Stefansson didn’t live 9 years exclusively on meat. His documented experiment lasted a year only and when living alongside Inuit, the quote below says “Inuit would often go 6 to 9 months a year eating nothing but meat and fish”, their overall diet being 90% meat (sea mammals) and fish, which is quite different of a 100% beef and bison diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilhjalmur_Stefansson#Low-carbohydrate_diet_of_meat_and_fish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilhjalmur_Stefansson#Low-carbohydrate_diet_of_meat_and_fish)
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Stefansson is also a figure of considerable interest in dietary circles, especially those with an interest in very low-carbohydrate diets. Stefansson documented the fact that the Inuit diet consisted of about 90% meat and fish; Inuit would often go 6 to 9 months a year eating nothing but meat and fish—essentially, a no-carbohydrate diet. He found that he and his fellow explorers of European descent were also perfectly healthy on such a diet. When medical authorities questioned him on this, he and a fellow explorer agreed to undertake a study under the auspices of the Journal of the American Medical Association to demonstrate that they could eat a 100% meat diet in a closely observed laboratory setting for the first several weeks, with paid observers for the rest of an entire year. Stefansson was compensated for his efforts by the American Meat Institute.[15] The results were published in the Journal, and both men were perfectly healthy on such a diet, without vitamin supplementation or anything else in their diet except meat and entrails.[16]

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Yes, we will see.
I appreciate the fact that you’re willing to serve as guinea pig to the benefit of humanity. That’s courageous, really! I hope you will still keep us informed in the long run.

I eat about 110-120g of protein per day. I raised it recently because I've been working out more. Before I started working out harder I was at about 80-85g of protein per day. I could probably get through the day while being sedentary at 70g of protein. I've lowered my fat intake considerably as I was taking in too many calories. At one point I was eating around 270g of fat and 70g of protein while trying to go to the gym. Getting a good work out was hard until I figured out I needed more protein to repair my muscles. I slowly decreased my fat intake and upped my protein intake and right now my macronutrients are:

110-120g Protein
200g Fat
Around 2260 Calories

Saturated fats are my preferred fuel. I don't do well on a lot of polyunsaturated fats for energy. I was ordering bone marrow for a while in the beginning of the diet but decided to switch over to beef or bison fat. Right now I don't have to worry about ordering extra fat as I am eating high fat ground beef mixed with organs.
I find such counting and planning highly weird because I have absolutely no idea how much protein, fat and carbohydrates I've ever eaten in my life and I don’t care. I doubt our healthy  ancestors of a million years ago would know or care, either!

Cheers
François 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 10, 2014, 12:12:34 am
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Do you mean anthropoids are not our ancestors?

No, I'm saying it is possible that one of the reasons for megafauna extinction was because we hunted them all.

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Stefansson didn’t live 9 years exclusively on meat. His documented experiment lasted a year only and when living alongside Inuit, the quote below says “Inuit would often go 6 to 9 months a year eating nothing but meat and fish”, their overall diet being 90% meat (sea mammals) and fish, which is quite different of a 100% beef and bison diet.

Either way he still thrived on a majority of meat and fat for 9 years. I don't think the amount of berries he had eaten in the summer had anything to do with maintaining health. Aren't wild berries known to be low in sugars? One hundred grams of wild blueberries (alaska native) only contains about 10 grams of carbohydrate. I doubt he was eating much more than this which means he was still maintaining a ketogenic state. Also keep in mind the experiment at Bellevue Hospital when he had eaten nothing but meat for one whole year did not contain seafood. He was perfectly healthy at the end of the experiment.

The macronutrient make up of land mammal vs sea mammal meat is very different for sure. I try my best to incorporate any missing minerals and vitamins I would get from fish into my diet because of it. This is why I supplement Iodine year long and Vitamin D in the winter. The majority of difference comes from the high Omega 3 levels from a diet consisting of mostly seafood. So far I have not had any of the known symptoms of Omega 3 deficiency. In the future I may start trying to incorporate some more seafood if need be.

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I appreciate the fact that you’re willing to serve as guinea pig to the benefit of humanity. That’s courageous, really! I hope you will still keep us informed in the long run.

I feel really good eating this way and will continue doing so until problems do arise. I will keep the forum informed in the long run for sure.

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I find such counting and planning highly weird because I have absolutely no idea how much protein, fat and carbohydrates I've ever eaten in my life and I don’t care. I doubt our healthy  ancestors of a million years ago would know or care, either!

I only do this because I have to keep track of my body fat %. Counting calories helps me figure out how much of a caloric deficit I need to be in to lose body fat, how many calories needed to bring my weight back up to a certain level or maintain my current weight. And of course to stay in ketosis as I find it beneficial.

 

Cheers :)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: eveheart on February 10, 2014, 12:21:46 am
I find such counting and planning highly weird because I have absolutely no idea how much protein, fat and carbohydrates I've ever eaten in my life and I don’t care. I doubt our healthy  ancestors of a million years ago would know or care, either!

That's where I am doubtful about long-term ZC as a true paleolithic eating practice. With tasty, attractive, great-smelling plant foods covering much of the face of the earth, which paleolithic parents would have warned their paleolithic children, "Don't eat those berries, you've already had 100g when you ate that tuber. Here, chew on this fat instead. Yummy!" They knew that bees meant honey. They knew that certain clumps of weeds meant tasty tubers down below. I don't need research studies to know this - just look at your own children as they explore their world by taste!

To me, ZC is a style of biohacking (in the sense of managing one's own biology). It's one of the plausible ways of experimenting on yourself. Biohacking is less than 200 years old, if you date it back to Banting.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 10, 2014, 01:55:06 am
I agree, they probably ate anything that they found, and didn't think twice.  However, when food supply was plentiful, as in devouring a large beast, whether or not they labeled meat as protein and so on,  they would have discovered as we do here, that too much of one type of food would leave them feeling less than optimal.  But when starving I doubt that they cared.   We on the other hand mostly have full refrigerators and whether we count grams of food or not, we over time can discern as to what amounts of food enlivens us, or makes us feel dull and sluggish.  Too much fat, grams or not, and we've over eaten fat.  Too much sugar and for some who are sensitive, and we notice a sugar rush and ensuing crash.   Again, if we were living day to day foraging we would have little concern over overeating, and more concern with filling our stomachs.    But for myself, who experimented with simply eating by taste and smell etc. ,,  I find that using some discipline and not eating as much sugary foods as would be dictated by taste and smell has done me a world of good.  And the same is holding true with using discipline with not eating meat or proteins to satiety, but by cutting down on the 'number' of grams and instead using fat as fuel.     Again, early ancestors had little if any concept on longevity.  They lived meal to meal.  We on the other hand, especially informed by the internet and millions of other curious minds around the planet, can use information with experience to potentially go one step farther potentially towards living long healthy aware lives than those early ancestors eating meal to meal in the wild.    Too often we look to them for the answers.   Nature never intended them to live well into their nineties, but just long enough to procreate and pass along hunting and survival skills while living in communal groups. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 10, 2014, 02:10:17 am
I don't know about Miles,, but Lowenherz had some very strange limiting  dietary practices that he BELIEVED to be true.     As in only (at least for some time) using coconuts as his fat source...   My experience with vlc or zc is that it takes some skill, as in especially  not overeating protein, finding multiple sources of animal and vegetable fat as a mainstay, finding good sources of traces minerals if not eating from the ocean, utilizing organs, including sources of Vit-c and some plants for additional minerals and possibly fibre.    I've utilized sea weeds and include occasional greens, radishes, garlic, leeks, lettuces...  and exercise daily.    There are more, obviously.    But rather than dismiss vlc or zc,  I think it would be more useful to investigate where those who  'failed' trying went wrong.  My guess is you look deep enough you'll find something.    And more recently Phil may be on to something with his looking to RS.  Because personally it seems that I've coincidently included those in my diet all along. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 10, 2014, 02:20:27 am
Very well put, Van! Using protein for satiety and fuel over time would prove to be inefficient and our ancestors knew fat was preferred. I would think we would be much more adapted to high sugar intakes if carbohydrates were a main fuel source.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on February 10, 2014, 04:39:04 pm
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My experience with vlc or zc is that it takes some skill, as in especially  not overeating protein, finding multiple sources of animal and vegetable fat as a mainstay, finding good sources of traces minerals if not eating from the ocean, utilizing organs, including sources of Vit-c and some plants for additional minerals and possibly fibre.    I've utilized sea weeds and include occasional greens, radishes, garlic, leeks, lettuces...  and exercise daily.   
So you eat or ate ZC/VLC? How many carbs do or did you eat? How long have you eaten this way? Don’t you drink milk?

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But rather than dismiss vlc or zc,  I think it would be more useful to investigate where those who  'failed' trying went wrong.  My guess is you look deep enough you'll find something. 
I agree with Phil on that:
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when a radically new dietary approach is proposed, such as a diet chronically very low in carbs (and resistant starch), the burden of proof lies on those proposing it.
The same goes for raw food diets in general: It' still an experiment.
BTW, what’s wrong with coconuts?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 10, 2014, 05:00:14 pm
Van, you have an ingenious and inventive mind!
I agree, they probably ate anything that they found, and didn't think twice.  However, when food supply was plentiful, as in devouring a large beast, whether or not they labeled meat as protein and so on,  they would have discovered as we do here, that too much of one type of food would leave them feeling less than optimal.
How could we eat too much of one type of unprocessed, non spiced wild food?

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But for myself, who experimented with simply eating by taste and smell etc. ,,  I find that using some discipline and not eating as much sugary foods as would be dictated by taste and smell has done me a world of good.  And the same is holding true with using discipline with not eating meat or proteins to satiety, but by cutting down on the 'number' of grams and instead using fat as fuel.
Of course, we are better off when using some discipline with modern foods artificially selected to taste better during several hundreds generations. Moreover, constantly having a refrigerator full of various foods available in large amounts is an artificial condition making some discipline  an absolute need. The obvious solution would be to live in the wilderness and have to hunt and gather ourselves all our food… Who’s willing to do that? Some instinctos have done such an experiment, but for a limited duration only.

As for eating fat to completely replace carbs, it might be fine as long as you have a reliable source of suitable fats and if you can eat and digest amounts of fats sufficient to suppress all need for carbs without problems. Frankly, I never met these conditions lastingly.

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Again, early ancestors had little if any concept on longevity.
We don’t know: animals don’t seem to have either but nevertheless most of them live much longer than “just long enough to procreate and pass along hunting and survival skills” as you say below.

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They lived meal to meal.  We on the other hand, especially informed by the internet and millions of other curious minds around the planet, can use information with experience to potentially go one step farther potentially towards living long healthy aware lives than those early ancestors eating meal to meal in the wild.
Many of them certainly lived longer and better lives than most of us, “knowledgeable and informed” civilized people. Thinking that we know how and can improve nature is one of the most fundamental mistakes humanity has ever done.

That said, we can nevertheless use the information we have to avoid the mistakes done in the past ever since we use fire.   

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    Too often we look to them for the answers.   Nature never intended them to live well into their nineties, but just long enough to procreate and pass along hunting and survival skills while living in communal groups. 

See my above answer.

Cheers
François
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 10, 2014, 07:27:58 pm
Raw food diets have been around for a 100 years plus, so there is no  "burden of proof" required. Same goes for zero-carb, and especially low-carb diets,  which have been successfully practised by various arctic tribes for many millenia. By contrast, this resistant starch nonsense is a wholly new, nonsensical  gimmick with virtually no solid scientific data backing it, so definitely does need a  lot more evidence to back it before it can remotely gain any credibility whatsoever.

Incidentally, it is a false statement to state that  raw foods are "just an experiment".  Not only have they been going on for  over a century,  not  even counting the fact that many tribes ate mostly raw foods in their diets for millenia,  but there is now so much overwhelming scientific evidence to show that cooking creates harmful toxins, that raw animal/raw plant-food  food diet can be considered  to be a  "proven" diet.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 10, 2014, 07:50:21 pm
Wouldn’t it be appropriate to say that raw paleo diet is a counter-experiment? About 10,000 years ago the human kind launched itself in a vast experiment (which is running away out of control) by systematically cooking food, drinking animal milk and adopting cereal grains as a staple. This is the real experiment, something that had never been done by any species during billions years of life on Earth.

On the other hand, the zero carb diet is a real experiment too since it’s something that had never been done by anyone in his right mind, as Phil rightly said. It’s not paleo, it’s an ideology which has nothing to do with a paleo diet. 

Arctic tribes have been on low-carb, not on zero carb — but your post implicitly agrees with that.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 10, 2014, 08:05:31 pm
Hey folks, can we please try to keep debating to a minimum in this journal, and focus more on asking questions about what I've posted and sharing related experiences (and experiences that contradict mine are quite welcome)? I created the recent ZC/VLC thread so folks could do more of the debating stuff there, and even there I hope there will also be questions and shared experiences.

There are lots of questions too, and I'll try to get to answering them all.

Ok, I did split the posts around this one from your journal and transfered them here.
Iguana
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 10, 2014, 08:50:13 pm
Wouldn’t it be appropriate to say that raw paleo diet is a counter-experiment? About 10,000 years ago the human kind launched itself in a vast experiment (which is running away out of control) by systematically cooking food, drinking animal milk and adopting cereal grains as a staple. This is the real experiment, something that had never been done by any species during billions years of life on Earth.

On the other hand, the zero carb diet is a real experiment too since it’s something that had never been done by anyone in his right mind, as Phil rightly said. It’s not paleo, it’s an ideology which has nothing to do with a paleo diet. 

Arctic tribes have been on low-carb, not on zero carb — but your post implicitly agrees with that.

You're insisting that zero carb is an experiment done by only those not in the right frame of mind and unheard of. Well, you thinking 10 grams of carbohydrates in the form of berries or from other sources per day is enough to significantly keep the Inuit anymore healthier doesn't seem quite logical. Also, ten grams of carbohydrate is not enough to stop production of ketones.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 11, 2014, 12:12:33 am

Arctic tribes have been on low-carb, not on zero carb — but your post implicitly agrees with that.

  Arctic tribes have, at the very least, in certain cases, been regularly zero-carb for many months at a time.  Past a certain point  northwards, the only plant life, if at all, would have occurred only during the few weeks of summer, otherwise not at all.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 11, 2014, 12:49:29 am
So you eat or ate ZC/VLC? How many carbs do or did you eat? How long have you eaten this way? Don’t you drink milk?
I agree with Phil on that: The same goes for raw food diets in general: It' still an experiment.
BTW, what’s wrong with coconuts?
Nothing wrong with coconuts, it's just a limited version of fat, as opposed to animal.    I don't drink milk now for about ten years.  I don't really do the math with carbs, but the amounts might be 30-60?    It's been over eight years at least Vlc.   And about forty being raw.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 11, 2014, 01:44:44 am
Nothing wrong with coconuts, it's just a limited version of fat, as opposed to animal.    I don't drink milk now for about ten years.  I don't really do the math with carbs, but the amounts might be 30-60?    It's been over eight years at least Vlc.   And about forty being raw.
So how many years was that raw vegan or fruitarian and how many RVAF with raw dairy?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 11, 2014, 02:54:14 am
Kind of a mixed bag;   I was instincto for about five years,  had goats and got most of my calories from them for about twelve, and now vlc/close to zc for more than eight.  But in the beginning is where I ruined my health with raw pretty much raw vegan with lots of fruit.  Oh, after the goats I did about two years of 80/20, which was also a disaster.  And then there was that one plus year stint at macro way back when... learned to make some pretty good rice though.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 11, 2014, 04:34:45 am
You're insisting that zero carb is an experiment done by only those not in the right frame of mind and unheard of. Well, you thinking 10 grams of carbohydrates in the form of berries or from other sources per day is enough to significantly keep the Inuit anymore healthier doesn't seem quite logical. Also, ten grams of carbohydrate is not enough to stop production of ketones.

Sorry, for me zero means zero = 0. A minute amount of a particular food can have a major health significance. I don’t know how much berries an Inuit eats, but they are also very found of seals’ liver which contains carbs and they eat intestines as well plus all the edible plants they can find. Wikipedia:
“While it is not possible to cultivate native plants for food in the Arctic, the Inuit have traditionally gathered those that are naturally available. Grasses, tubers, roots, stems, berries, fireweed and seaweed (kuanniq or edible seaweed) were collected and preserved depending on the season and the location.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7]"

So, they are not “zero carb”, but low carb. They eat that way ever since childhood, and as Phil pointed out, “Inuit studied in the 1970s were found to have abnormally large livers, presumably to assist in this process” (Wikipedia), so there must have been a gradual adaptation over several generations. They are probably at the extreme limit of human adaptability to a cold climate and to a low carb diet.

  Arctic tribes have, at the very least, in certain cases, been regularly zero-carb for many months at a time.  Past a certain point  northwards, the only plant life, if at all, would have occurred only during the few weeks of summer, otherwise not at all.

There’s no question that some individuals can withstand a “zero carb diet” during many months without problems. The troubles may arise only after some years of being permanently on such a diet. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 11, 2014, 05:04:25 am
experience shows me that there's little difference between zero and low low carb...  I think this is nit picking here.     The point that should be focused on is keto adaptation,  the body's ability to preferentially use fat as fuel and it's ability to, and the resultant transformations that happens in the body.    Whether it's zero or low, the same ability holds true for me.  In fact my energy or feeling balanced and centered is better the closer I stay towards zero.    Iguana I understand your situation where abundant fats aren't available in your area.  And I can empathize  for that.   You'd probably have to go north to find animals/sea food with accessible fat.   Without having lived the experiment, it can only be conjecture on your part..    And like all thought,  the understanding is in the experience.     With my five years of experimenting with instincto,  no one ever even suggested upping my intake of fat and thus reducing my intake of sugars.   In fact I only saw one time someone at Montrame, a woman, eat fat alone,  ( I think I mentioned before that she was treating herself with some disease..).  She ate probably 6-8 ounces.   I remember how I thought to myself,  how gross,, the thought of eating fat all by itself.  Little did I know. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 11, 2014, 05:50:34 am
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Sorry, for me zero means zero = 0. A minute amount of a particular food can have a major health significance. I don’t know how much berries an Inuit eats, but they are also very found of seals’ liver which contains carbs and they eat intestines as well plus all the edible plants they can find

Okay then, so according to you I am not zero carb as I eat a little over an ounce of beef liver per day. That is 1.5 grams of carbs.
How about when they ran out of plant food or when it wasn't available? There will always be more questions to ask and I think this debate could continue on forever..

Like Van says, staying in ketosis is what we strive for. I know I could stay in ketosis even if I had started eating a few servings of greens or berries per day but I personally don't see a need to do so.

I'm done debating.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 11, 2014, 06:25:31 am
No, I'm saying it is possible that one of the reasons for megafauna extinction was because we hunted them all.
And these extinctions occurred much farther back than 10,000 years, and once they were extinct they were no longer available to be eaten and other foods had to be consumed.

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One hundred grams of wild blueberries (alaska native) only contains about 10 grams of carbohydrate.
Wouldn't the example of Eskimo wild berry eating suggest eating similar foods today (such as cranberries, wild Maine blueberries, or wild black raspberries, for example, which are all available to me), rather than avoiding all berries? How does one get the notion to eat zero carbs from a population that ate some carbs?

Plus, Stefansson normally included some potatoes in his diet (outside of his temporary all-meat phases like the one-year Bellevue Experiment) and in his recommended protocol and he also reported witnessing inland Eskimos eating wild potatoes. Plus, Eskimos traditionally also ate other carb-containing foods like roots, animal stomach contents, glycogen-rich fresh raw liver, eggs, and tree saps and barks. Why would we use their example to justify avoiding these foods that they ate?

I find that using some discipline and not eating as much sugary foods as would be dictated by taste and smell has done me a world of good.
Sure, same here. One nice thing about resistant starch is that it's not sugary at all. Instead, it generates butyrate, a fat, so one could think of it as a fat. Another nice thing about the butyrate RS generates is that it helps modulate blood sugar and the immune system so that sugars don't cause as much damage.

Not everyone is as harmed by sugary foods as I am, so I don't just assume that my low carb tolerance is natural or normal. I looked to see if there was any way to address the underlying problems causing the carb intolerance, instead of just coddling it with a very restricted diet forever. I found something in RS that seems to be helping.

experience shows me that there's little difference between zero and low low carb...  I think this is nit picking here.
If there's little difference, then why not eat those small amounts of carbs? Why bother restricting the diet more severely than even the Eskimos traditionally did just to attain zero carbs without significant additional benefit? Don't you like some carby foods? If a little bit doesn't do harm and you find them tasty, why not eat the amount you say makes "little difference"?

Overall health doesn't involve just the health of the external shell of the human body -  it also involves internal elements, such as the gut microbiome. Have any of the people who are assuming that they're doing great on VLC/ZC gotten their gut microbiome checked, or their IGM or IGG antibody levels? According to this physician, there may be problems that you're not even aware of:
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You won’t know what’s wrong with you until it progresses to the point of severe immune deficiency. For example, I developed IgM deficiency, igg subclass deficiency and hypocomplementemia after, let’s see hardcore 12 months(?) of ketosis. What symptoms do I have? None except a chronic runny nose that’s only midly bothersome. My Vit D is at 80 and I don’t take flu shots and I don’t have respiratory infections. But the low-grade runny nose is constant all seasons. Plus I react to airborne particles and have umpteen food allergies. That’s why I keep saying, you really don’t know how you’re jeopardizing your health. Just because it feels good doesn’t mean you’re healthy. That’s why the carbs ad libitum argument is flawed. You might be on top of the world VLCing but you have no idea what it’s doing to your immune system.

Autoimmunity and immunodeficiency are stealthy and creepy disease states; you’ll only be made of its encroachment through specialized blood tests and the appearance of mild and vague symptoms, which in many cases you won’t be able to connect to VLCing. Think of it as a frog being boiled alive on your stovetop.

- Spanish Caravan, http://freetheanimal.com/2014/02/ketogenic-diets-news.html#comment-558674 (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/02/ketogenic-diets-news.html#comment-558674)
Brady, Miles, Lowenherz, and me have all been provided (by multiple people who remember these cases) as examples of people who fared better when they added some carby food or some sort of plant food back into their diet. Listing these examples doesn't mean that these were the only examples. Anyone who has read this forum for some years knows there were more. Feel free to list all the counter examples you like, preferably (where possible) supported with objective evidence, like basal temperature, resting heart rate, fasting blood glucose, post prandial BG, gut microbiome test results, triglycerides, LDL, LDL-P, immune system test results, ... --not just opinions, excuses and hypotheses.

Rosedale has treated diabetic patients for over 25 years with vlc.  I would suggest contacting him to verify your results/suspicions.
Interesting coincidence that you should mention Dr. Rosedale. I have read some of his blog, watched one of his presentations and chatted with him briefly in Internet comments in the past and commended him and Paul Jaminet on their civil and informative debates. Are you aware that Dr. Rosedale's carb recommendation (at around 20% of calories as carbs, on avg) is only 5 points lower than the safe-starch-guy Paul Jaminet's (at around 25% of calories as carbs, within a range of 20-30+%)?

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My guess is that there is value in RS, and, that you've something else going on within. I have read where constipation has been a problem for you.  Peristalsis happens by at least two mechanisms;  one being the acidic level in one's colon which triggers peristalsis, and another is simply pressure put on the colon wall by feces themselves.
And one of the interesting things about peristalsis is that butyrate in the colon, generated by bacteria, helps to promote it. Resistant starch and other prebiotics fill in so many missing pieces of the puzzle that there is just too much to cover without making it my full time career.

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I use to buy directly from a culture scientist  who made bacterial cultures for companies all over the world.  One of which he received a patent for that literally helped solve South Korea's problem of stomach ulcers due to bad stomach bacteria.  They incorporated his bacterial strain into yogurts that are sold like candy out of vending machines throughout Korea.   He and I speculated as to whether it made sense to actually go to Africa and collect fece samples from the healthiest Masai tribesmen living as close to their natural ways.  Then isolate the strains of bacteria, and grow them to be sold as a probiotic here in the US.   I still think it had merit.
The current general thinking is that using probiotics to help generate more bacteria in the gut isn't likely to work well if one isn't feeding the bacteria. There's also some thinking that probiotics don't actually populate the gut with bacteria, but work in another way. If true, that would explain how probiotics using dead bacteria could work.

I haven't heard about the probiotic you mentioned, but I have scoured the Internet in the past for the most highly touted probiotics, some supported by studies, and tried several of them and even wrote a bit about this in the past, though I don't remember if I put anything in my journal, specifically. Right now I'm using Prescript-Assist, which is currently touted as one of the best and has a study supporting it. I haven't noticed any benefits like I have with RS, but I haven't given up on probiotics, despite the past failures with it, sometimes expensive. I also eat some probiotic foods. So I'm on board with you on probiotics.

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And I do think that the bacteria in the colon science is going to be the Big health possibility of the future.  Should be an interesting ride  for you.
Agreed, thanks.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: paper_clips43 on February 11, 2014, 07:17:52 am
Okay then, so according to you I am not zero carb as I eat a little over an ounce of beef liver per day. That is 1.5 grams of carbs.
How about when they ran out of plant food or when it wasn't available? There will always be more questions to ask and I think this debate could continue on forever..

Like Van says, staying in ketosis is what we strive for. I know I could stay in ketosis even if I had started eating a few servings of greens or berries per day but I personally don't see a need to do so.

I'm done debating.

It looks like you have a great amount of muscle and weight 24isours! That is awesome and surprising to me since you are low carb. Also I noticed from your picture you have a mole on the right side of your face. Has that always been there? If so has it gotten better or worse since you started low carb?

The only reason I ask is because it is on your liver line.
When I started low carb I got a mole on my liver line as well and since I stopped eating low carb for about a year now I finally have seen it mostly disappear.

Everyone is different though...
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 11, 2014, 07:44:37 am
It seems that some people are finding it impossible to comprehend that the fact that some Inuit tribes further south etc. may have had  access to a little bark or whatever does not change the fact that other Inuit tribes had no such access being far  away from such sources. I doubt people would, anyway, get out of ketosis if they only had very occasional access to raw plants in small quantities per person. More to the point, during the Ice Age it must have been even more difficult for tribes migrating across the ice-fields to gain access to plant foods in any significant quantity.

As for the 4 people mentioned as being supposed "proof", I don't want to belabour the point, but I know that other members  have at various  times in the past  suggested that those very  4 people were simply  orthorexic(among some others like Nicola), rather than being  genuine cases of failure at every different  dietary variant  they inevitably  switched to every so often.

I always wonder about the carbs in raw liver. if one is eating the whole animal plus the liver as well, then surely it is impossible to get out of ketosis(providing one is eating normal daily amounts of food, of course!).Perhaps carbs from an animal source are not the same as carbs from plant sources?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 11, 2014, 08:40:35 am
Where did anyone claim that no Inuit tribes had little access to plant foods (I have pointed to the Greenland Inuit myself in the past as having diets especially low in plant foods, though even they were not traditionally completely zero carb), or that the four examples provided by Inger, Hannah, Iguana and me were "proof" of anything? Van asked for examples and we responded (and as Hannah pointed out, there were more).

Your own reported experience with VLC was hardly a resounding success, yet even that would not be "proof", nor will there ever be universally accepted "proof" when it comes to diets. One thing you can be sure of is that the debates will go on forever.

If you think that VLC/ZC is so great, why don't you return to it? Actions speak louder than words. A success story would be more persuasive than opinions. I gave VLC a longer try than you did, after all.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 11, 2014, 09:17:11 am
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And these extinctions occurred much farther back than 10,000 years, and once they were extinct they were no longer available to be eaten and other foods had to be consumed.

I'm sure other animals went extinct because of our hunting. An example would be the American Bison that became nearly extinct and there were probably countless others before. Human biology in a way proves this if you think about how much more adapted we've become through the years to use meats and fats as energy and how we utilize nutrients in meats and fats significantly better than those in plant foods. Ever take a look at the Carotene to Retinol conversion rate? In some people the conversion rate is about 29:1.

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Wouldn't the example of Eskimo wild berry eating suggest eating similar foods today (such as cranberries, wild Maine blueberries, or wild black raspberries, for example, which are all available to me), rather than avoiding all berries? How does one get the notion to eat zero carbs from a population that ate some carbs?

It was an experiment that wound up working. I do like berries and I may even eat some on occasion when summer comes but I don't find them necessary really. Either way I'd be sure to stay in ketosis as it is very beneficial in multiple ways (one being muscle building).

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If there's little difference, then why not eat those small amounts of carbs? Why bother restricting the diet more severely than even the Eskimos traditionally did just to attain zero carbs without significant additional benefit? Don't you like some carby foods? If a little bit doesn't do harm and you find them tasty, why not eat the amount you say makes "little difference"?

Overall health doesn't involve just the health of the external shell of the human body -  it also involves internal elements, such as the gut microbiome. Have any of the people who are assuming that they're doing great on VLC/ZC gotten their gut microbiome checked, or their IGM or IGG antibody levels? According to this physician, there may be problems that you're not even aware of:

Great point and I will look more into this, thanks. Like I said, I just don't find it necessary as this time.







Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 11, 2014, 09:29:26 am
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It looks like you have a great amount of muscle and weight 24isours! That is awesome and surprising to me since you are low carb. Also I noticed from your picture you have a mole on the right side of your face. Has that always been there? If so has it gotten better or worse since you started low carb?

Why is it surprising? Thanks I get to the gym often - it is part of my job.

That mole has been there forever. It hasn't changed much until I started going raw - it seems to be getting lighter over the years actually if that is what you meant by getting better.



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The only reason I ask is because it is on your liver line.
When I started low carb I got a mole on my liver line as well and since I stopped eating low carb for about a year now I finally have seen it mostly disappear.

Everyone is different though...


Interesting.. it was in the same area?

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 11, 2014, 10:02:31 am
I'm sure other animals went extinct because of our hunting. An example would be the American Bison that became nearly extinct and there were probably countless others before.
Yup, I do agree that hunting and meat eating were a part of the lives of ALL primates and even created a thread making that point a while ago (it was called something like "all primates hunt and eat meat," IIRC). I just don't buy the notion that H. sapiens were predominantly zero carb. Plant foods were also consumed for millions of years. I also don't buy the notion that humans or any primates were ever "vegetarians" that avoided eating all flesh from animals and insects.

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It was an experiment that wound up working. I do like berries and I may even eat some on occasion when summer comes but I don't find them necessary really.
And I don't find completely avoiding berries, which evidence suggests have been part of the human diet for millions of years, to be necessary. There seems to be plenty of room for middle ground.

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Either way I'd be sure to stay in ketosis as it is very beneficial in multiple ways (one being muscle building).
One thing that rarely gets discussed by either extreme of the macronutrient wars is that there are ways to stay ketogenic while at the same time feeding the gut bacteria. I've been exploring my notes on that a bit in the last few days. It's not necessary to starve the gut bacteria to stay ketogenic, so I don't see the point of starving them.

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Great point and I will look more into this, thanks. Like I said, I just don't find it necessary as this time.
Thanks, I'm not so much interested in persuading folks like you who seem to be doing well (who knows, maybe you are doing a type of ketogenic diet that works and doesn't starve the gut bugs) as I am in sharing some concerning info with the folks who are noticing problems (like one or more of high and rising FBG and post-prandial BG, basal temp. below 97.8, poor carb tolerance, cold extremities, etc.) and only seeing people tell them to keep doing more of the same, or "just eat more fat," or take megadoses of Mg or iodine, or such.

I suspect that eating raw and eating plenty of organs helps avoid the problems of VLC/ZC, but I don't have strong evidence re: that. It's more of a hunch. It doesn't seem to be entirely protective, however, because even Lex Rooker, a longtimer raw VLCer, and one of the more successful ones, reported high FBG and somewhat high A1C, IIRC.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: paper_clips43 on February 11, 2014, 12:49:08 pm
Why is it surprising? Thanks I get to the gym often - it is part of my job.

That mole has been there forever. It hasn't changed much until I started going raw - it seems to be getting lighter over the years actually if that is what you meant by getting better.




Interesting.. it was in the same area?

Just because I lost all my muscle when I went low carb.

Yes it was in the exact same area and one above it connecting to the nose.

That line gets more noticeable when I have too much fat and not enough carbs.

Whens the last time you got your labs done? And would you consider posting them?

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 11, 2014, 03:35:00 pm
Where did anyone claim that no Inuit tribes had little access to plant foods (I have pointed to the Greenland Inuit myself in the past as having diets especially low in plant foods, though even they were not traditionally completely zero carb), or that the four examples provided by Inger, Hannah, Iguana and me were "proof" of anything? Van asked for examples and we responded (and as Hannah pointed out, there were more).

Your own reported experience with VLC was hardly a resounding success, yet even that would not be "proof", nor will there ever be universally accepted "proof" when it comes to diets. One thing you can be sure of is that the debates will go on forever.

If you think that VLC/ZC is so great, why don't you return to it? Actions speak louder than words. A success story would be more persuasive than opinions. I gave VLC a longer try than you did, after all.
Some open equivocation in the first part of the response, but anyway.

As for my own experience of RVLC, it WAS indeed  a "resounding success".  It had only one minor flaw re reduced effectiveness of anaerobic exercise, otherwise it was all positive.As for the absurd nonsense re my not returning to it yet, well that is only due to social pressure on me to eat  more raw plant foods in accordance with modern doctors' guidelines - I accept the pressure as I would rather eat more raw plant foods than eat any cooked foods.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 11, 2014, 04:35:52 pm
A  "resounding success" ? Looks like it's you who wrote that:

As regards plants, I have had enough personal experience that makes it clear that raw plants, especially fruits, are essential for optimum human health, albeit in small quantities. No plant-food whatsoever in the diet, at best greatly reduces physical performance, and, for many people such as myself, it causes  very terminal health-problems in the long run.

I've done c.3 raw, zero-carb trials., each lasting c. 5-6 weeks or so, the last one being  a couple of years or so ago(2-3?). I've been doing rawpalaeo(LC or VLC) for 8 years, in general. I'm afraid that people have been making wrong assumptions, as my allexperts.com page was rather unclear on the issue(up till now, a lot of people seem to have gotten the erroneous impression that I was doing a 100% raw, fatty organ-meats diet or something.


Basically, every time I went zero-carb , I would experience the following effects:- at first, for the first 2 weeks, I'd get greater focus/alertness, and greatly decreased physical performance/endurance. Then, after that, by the 3rd week, I would quickly  get decreased alertness, chronic fatigue, panic attacks, ravenous hunger(for carbs) and I would have to struggle to force myself to eat even tiny amounts of raw animal food. After several weeks of this, I would get deep black circles under the eyes and loose, weakened  teeth - both kinds of symptoms I had before going rawpalaeo(and during my raw-dairy-phase). I'd lose a lot of weight due to the lack of appetite and the ravenous hunger for carbs interfered with my daily life, to a huge extent.I'd also get panic-attacks(especially on one occasion, when while zero-carb I tried some heated suet, for taste-reasons, but at other times as well. I'd , in addition, feel forced to drink vast amounts of mineral-water, due to excessive thirst, but no amount of water was enough as I really needed some raw fruit, instead. By the 5th/6th weeks, life became an absolute hell, getting additional headaches etc. etc.,  and I would feel literally like I was dying, so I had no choice but to give up on raw, zero-carb or face hospitalisation, and, eventually, death.

I remember hearing something being claimed on various diet-forums about how going zero-carb puts an excessive strain on one's glandular system. So that, presumably, people with a reasonably healthy glandular system, from the get-go, might be fine on it, whether for a period or even  in the long-term. But anyone who has ever had issues with their (adrenal/thyroid etc.) glands in the past(which is a majority of those on SAD-diets, IMO), even if they've healed as a result of raw foods, night be well advised to stay away from zero-carb like the plague.

I am not suggesting that zero-carb is automatically a disaster for everyone. What concerns me, though, is this:- most Arctic tribes do eat berries in summer, even if they eat practically 99-100% meats, raw or cooked, at other times. They , presumably, also eat the fermented stomach-contents(ie plant-matter) of the animal-carcasses they cut up. So, 100% carnivorous diet for life, for humans, may be  rarer than expected.

Plus, a lot of people do very badly on zero-carb, raw or otherwise, judging from reports of RPDers. I'm not the only one. Though, I'll grant that the overwhelming majority of people do better on raw,low-carb(<35%) than raw, high-carb(like Instincto)(80%+ raw plant-foods).

While there are individual differences in adaptation or non-adaptation to zero-carb, the evidence re loss of physical performance is pretty much across the board - I'm assuming you do low-level exercise so don't notice much difference? Certainly, I (and a number of raw athletes on other groups) have noticed a distinct, massive drop in physical performance when cutting out all carbs from the diet, such as having no endurance or losing physical strength. Plus most photos of long-term zero-carbers show them to be rather too light of weight and not very muscular(indeed same happens to me when I've been extremely VLC or 0 carb) , requiring quite some time to recover from very harsh exercise etc..  This is in stark contrast to the widely reported massive physical attributes/exercise-levels of Palaeo tribespeople, (re evidence of bones), which seems to imply, IMO, that these Cro-Magnon  must have had some carbs in their diet. To date, it has been pointed out that no modern athlete nowadays follow a genuine zero-carb diet, which rather proves things.

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 11, 2014, 06:10:13 pm
As usual, iguana, you completely ignored my point. I had actually only done badly on raw zero carb, whereas I did fine on raw, very  low carb, as mentioned in the passages you quoted. I do also accept that many people do fine on raw, zero-carb, I just  usually add that a number of people just cannot handle raw zero carb in any way, that's all. Raw, very-low carb diets are  absolutely fine for most people.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 11, 2014, 06:42:31 pm
So, according to you and contrary to what Van an 24isours say, there's a fundamental difference between the outcome with raw very low carb (RVLC) which is absolutely fine and is diametrically opposed to raw zero carb (RZC), which often results in total disasters. Do I get it right this time?  :)

Could you give us clue as where about this sharp but absolutely critical threshold between ZC and very VLC would stand? Is 1 ppm (part per million) of carbs already VLC? Or would 0.01% of carbs be a minimum to cross the borderline between the ZC inferno and the VLC paradise? Or is it 1%? 10%? Percents in weight? In volume? In calories?



Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 11, 2014, 08:37:18 pm
Quote
One thing that rarely gets discussed by either extreme of the macronutrient wars is that there are ways to stay ketogenic while at the same time feeding the gut bacteria. I've been exploring my notes on that a bit in the last few days. It's not necessary to starve the gut bacteria to stay ketogenic, so I don't see the point of starving them.

Absolutely and that would be the middle ground you talk about. A middle ground to me if I were to add some carbs back into my diet would probably include no more than 20-30 grams of carbohydrate. My fat and protein macro would stay the same. Usually anywhere between 20-60 grams of carbohydrates will throw someone out of ketosis.

Quote
Thanks, I'm not so much interested in persuading folks like you who seem to be doing well (who knows, maybe you are doing a type of ketogenic diet that works and doesn't starve the gut bugs) as I am in sharing some concerning info with the folks who are noticing problems (like one or more of high and rising FBG and post-prandial BG, basal temp. below 97.8, poor carb tolerance, cold extremities, etc.) and only seeing people tell them to keep doing more of the same, or "just eat more fat," or take megadoses of Mg or iodine, or such.

I suspect that eating raw and eating plenty of organs helps avoid the problems of VLC/ZC, but I don't have strong evidence re: that. It's more of a hunch. It doesn't seem to be entirely protective, however, because even Lex Rooker, a longtimer raw VLCer, and one of the more successful ones, reported high FBG and somewhat high A1C, IIRC.

There is no need to persuade me as I am open minded, believe it or not... haha. Those symptoms to me really do sound like thyroid imbalances and research shows most people are deficient in Iodine. I'm sure these people would benefit from eating seaweed or taking some extra Iodine. Btw, I am not recommending megadoses, three to six milligrams for someone on a RPD should be plenty. Even Lex's high FBG can be improved by including some in his diet. I know he did start supplementing for a while ( I believe in megadoses which I find completely unnecessary for someone on a RPD) but I think that was after he had his A1C/FBG checked. I suggest you look into all the positive results Dr. Brownstein and Dr. Abraham had with Iodine supplementation. Results have gone as far as reversing diabetes in some patients.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 11, 2014, 08:44:45 pm
Quote
Could you give us clue as where about this sharp but absolutely critical threshold between ZC and very VLC would stand? Is 1 ppm (part per million) of carbs already VLC? Or would 0.01% of carbs be a minimum to cross the borderline between the ZC inferno and the VLC paradise? Or is it 1%? 10%? Percents in weight? In volume? In calories?

1 ppm... bhahaha  ;D

I would say,

ZC:     Meat, fat, organs - along the ranges of 75-85% of calories in fat and the rest protein.
VLC:   70-80% of calories from fat maybe around 5% from carbs the rest from protein..

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 11, 2014, 10:28:42 pm
I am many days ZC (0 carbs) and many days VLC. In summer/fall I can eat me full on wild berries.... I eat and eat and eat until I want no more. But the wild berries here have very little carbs... and they are crazy delicious!!! I never ever had any issues eating those. But, I cannot even eat apples from our own garden without reacting in some way. Cultivated fruit for me = not healthy. My own N=1

This discussion is getting pretty funny LOL
I am thinking like Van and 24isours, it is not about ZC and VLC, it is about being able to burn fat for fuel/ketosis. And not NEEDING carbs, but just feel great having none at all. No carb cravings. No hunger pangs. No blood sugar swings.

IMO a healthy human is able to do that without issues. Because we have faced it all the way during the evolution... times when we had nothing else as meat/fat/seafood to eat or even worse... nothing at all so we had to live on our own fat reserves. I 100% believe we are adapted to do this. And I think it is good for us too. Look how many people have started to eat LCHF here in Scandinavia, and they are thriving. They eat cooked! Especially people who live in countries with a winter season are very well adapted to this. But even in Africa etc. are times of the year where is little or no fruits to find (dry periods etc)

For me, the unnatural way is to eat heavily cultivated, overly sweet and big fruits... from around the world... totally unnatural to the climate we might live in or the season we are in. what is natural about that, in the end?

Do they taste good? Oh yes! That is why I was not able to quit eating the either. I was addicted to those sweeties  -[
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on February 11, 2014, 10:48:41 pm
So, according to you and contrary to what Van an 24isours say, there's a fundamental difference between the outcome with raw very low carb (RVLC) which is absolutely fine and is diametrically opposed to raw zero carb (RZC), which often results in total disasters. Do I get it right this time?  :)

Could you give us clue as where about this sharp but absolutely critical threshold between ZC and very VLC would stand? Is 1 ppm (part per million) of carbs already VLC? Or would 0.01% of carbs be a minimum to cross the borderline between the ZC inferno and the VLC paradise? Or is it 1%? 10%? Percents in weight? In volume? In calories?

Not exactly. From what I have come across , RZC  results in many disasters as well as  many successes. RVLC reports very, very few problems, by contrast. No idea of what the dividing line is for each person as everyone is different. In my own case, I got away with just one banana a week or so and still did absolutely  fine on an RVLC diet. Who knows? Maybe all I need to be fine is 5 blueberries a week or so of carbs?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 11, 2014, 11:24:30 pm
even the native Americans that were pretty much ZC most of the year ate wild berries and greens and plants etc. so there might be something to it that we need those too, for optimal health. I have never been without them for long time either. I believe in using everything in nature (the natural stuff not the cultivated) but those have so little carbs you pretty much run on fat anyways.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: raw on February 11, 2014, 11:54:36 pm
My kids and me myself consume regularly cultivated imported fruits. Which is NO GOOD. But parents are involved, I mean my parents. Even though they see the great result of being raw paleo dieters, still they keep reminding me that my kids are far from getting all fancy food out there. It's like a punishment for my kids. And telling me that they will break this rules (just eating raw uncooked animals ) when they will grow up more. I can imagine my self and my kids that it is possible and might be the better way to live just depending on free wild food in forest. What is carb? No need for anything... It has many proves in the past where men get lost in nature, they simply  relying on nature days, weeks, months and yrs , they survive well miraculously. Most of the time those  men are not on any pacific RPD.... The same way, me and my family never done RPD before and we started this diet trying high meat before raw meat. Nothing is written on stone.....
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 13, 2014, 08:08:27 pm
I get TSH, Vitamin D, and a few other blood tests done 2 - 4 times per year. My Vitamin D levels have ranged between 50 and 90 for the last 3 years. My TSH didn't budge with iodine supplementation at any level.
Thanks for sharing that, eveheart.

I haven't been seeing nearly as many success stories from iodine use as I have been from RS, such as with FBG. Like Lex Rooker and me, other VLCers and ZCers have also reported high and rising FBG:
Quote
For zero-carbers over 50, the fasting blood glucose was often somewhere between 95 and 110 mg/dl and could even go as high as the high teens. http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2009_07_01_archive.html (http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2009_07_01_archive.html)
Famous VLCers Bear Stanley and Peter of Hyperlipid are a couple of the better-known examples of high FBG: http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/archive/index.php/thread-779-3.html (http://www.livinlowcarbdiscussion.com/archive/index.php/thread-779-3.html)
 
Iodine didn't help with my FBG or post-meal BG, nor with Lex's (I think Lex reported it as averaging over 100 mg/dl, IIRC), AFAIK, whereas RS quickly and easily started working for me. Hasn't Lex been using iodine for some time now? It would be good to get an update on that from him.

I had indeed seen the positive reports re: Brownstein, Abraham and past positive comments about iodine in this forum, which is part of why I tried iodine. Brownstein was mentioned here, for example:
Lex Rooker’s “5  iodine” is the same as that given by Brownstein (from “Iodine Why You Need It” 4th Edition page 55):
“Dr Lugol began using a solution termed “Lugol’s Iodine” that was a mixture of 5% iodine and 10% potassium iodide in water (...) Two drops of Lugol’s solution (0.1ml) contains 5mg of iodine and 7.5mg of iodide.”
I was particularly intrigued by Lex's report of a slight improvement in his PSA (though unfortunately no effect on his "prostate size, growth, or symptoms" - http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/lex's-journal/msg114579/#msg114579 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/lex's-journal/msg114579/#msg114579)). Yet I found RS to work much better for me on FBG and other health metrics.

Quote
"The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for adult men and women is 150 µg/day. The median intake of iodine from food in the United States is approximately 240 to 300 µg/day for men and 190 to 210 µg/day for women. The Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for adults is 1,100 µg/day (1.1 mg/day), a value based on serum thyroptropin concentration in response to varying levels of ingested iodine." http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10026&page=258 (http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10026&page=258)
As this shows, whether one considers three to six milligrams of iodine per day to be a megadose or not (the term was used here http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/mega-dosing-iodine/msg108879/#msg108879 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/mega-dosing-iodine/msg108879/#msg108879) - but if that's not acceptable, is "high dose" an acceptable term to use?), it's way more than what is ingested by most people. So the question becomes, why do some people believe they need such unusually high intakes to maintain such things as normal FBG that others do not need high intakes of iodine for?

There are other key factors to consider beyond carb intake and iodine, such as whether the good gut bacteria are being fed sufficiently, and they reportedly feed on prebiotics. So one would presumably also need to get enough prebiotics and not just carbs. A wild diet that includes plenty of plant foods and honey naturally contains lots of prebiotics. The more one restricts plant food intake, the more difficult it becomes to get enough.

One of the more important prebiotics found in raw wild foods that have been consumed by humans for millions of years seems to be resistant starch. Once one recognizes that, then the question becomes how much is enough and how much is optimal? I've seen figures ranging from 15-50 g per day, IIRC. Some studies reported benefits from intakes of 15-30 grams per day (links for a couple of those studies and other basic RS info is available at this summary page: http://authoritynutrition.com/resistant-starch-101 (http://authoritynutrition.com/resistant-starch-101)).

Based on my experience and that of others, it seems that some health metrics can also help determine whether one's gut bugs are well fed, such as FBG, post-meal BG, basal temperature, warmth of extremities and overall warmth, resting heart rate, sleep quality, dream recall, food sensitivities/tolerance, Bristol stool scale, labido, ....

even the native Americans that were pretty much ZC most of the year ate wild berries and greens and plants etc. so there might be something to it that we need those too, for optimal health.
Exactly, Inger. The lowest average annual carb intake I've seen reported for any human society was a Greenland Inuit tribe at 2%. Anyone going below that is engaging in a novel experiment, and without the aid of the large livers of the Inuit and their special foods that are unobtainable in the USA.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: 24isours on February 13, 2014, 09:55:35 pm
Quote
As this shows, whether one considers three to six milligrams of iodine per day to be a megadose or not (the term was used here http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/mega-dosing-iodine/msg108879/#msg108879 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/mega-dosing-iodine/msg108879/#msg108879) - but if that's not acceptable, is "high dose" an acceptable term to use?), it's way more than what is ingested by most people. So the question becomes, why do some people believe they need such unusually high intakes to maintain such things as normal FBG that others do not need high intakes of iodine for?

Yes, it is way more ingested by most people but has been proven to be one the most deficient minerals in ones' diet.
I've already provided a link of research that shows low carb diets slowing down the production of T3 (thyroid hormone) - which has a large influence on glucose metabolism. Let me break down my hypothesis:

[/list]
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 15, 2014, 07:01:56 am
This discussion is getting pretty funny LOL

Ha, ha! We’ve got to have some fun, don’t we?  ;D

1 ppm... bhahaha  ;D
I would say,
ZC:     Meat, fat, organs - along the ranges of 75-85% of calories in fat and the rest protein.
VLC:   70-80% of calories from fat maybe around 5% from carbs the rest from protein..

Thanks. “1 ppm”, I was  kidding.  ;)

Still I have a big problem with all those numbers, analysis and intellectual attempts to govern one’s food intake because they are based on our current tremendously incomplete knowledge, our poor understanding of the living processes and their almost infinitely complex interactions. It typically belongs to the way of thinking (“we know and we can”)  of the civilized men who think we are the masters of nature. No, sorry we don’t know! We are not the masters of nature: nature is our master!

As Eveheart excellently puts it:
That's where I am doubtful about long-term ZC as a true paleolithic eating practice. With tasty, attractive, great-smelling plant foods covering much of the face of the earth, which paleolithic parents would have warned their paleolithic children, "Don't eat those berries, you've already had 100g when you ate that tuber. Here, chew on this fat instead. Yummy!" They knew that bees meant honey. They knew that certain clumps of weeds meant tasty tubers down below. I don't need research studies to know this - just look at your own children as they explore their world by taste!

Moreover, some home erectus for example, could not only find berries but also some of the biggest and sweetest fruits on the planet such as cempedaks. I guess they didn’t care about ketosis… Even myself didn’t know about it before reading this forum!  Still I don’t know precisely what contains the different foods I eat and I don’t care.  :)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 16, 2014, 03:03:07 am
I think you're missing the point on measuring, weights etc..   Just as you have a few certain guidelines in instincto,, not too much red meat, go easy on the fruits, etc..  (presumably because of collected prior experience)  some here are curious about how much is too much when it comes to say meat or fat, or the ratio of each.     I doubt many here actually weigh out each meal, but use weights occasionally as a reference or as a way of collecting experience.   
   As regards being in a state of ketosis...  yes I'm sure early man/woman didn't care much.   When there was food around they ate it.  Just as you do.  That doesn't preclude the obvious possibility that they were forced into ketosis when carbs were scarce. And I'd be willing to venture that they noticed the difference when they were in ketosis and when they'd exit.  But as to whether they put two and two together,  who knows?     Something that it appears you've never experienced and are unwilling to experiment with, but continue to offer opinions about nevertheless.   And my opinion is that until you'd ever experience ketosis you won't care to.     Which brings me to a couple of recent findings that at least I've seen in the last week.. and that is the growing evidence that we can become addicted as much to sugar as drugs or alcohol, that the brain has addictive pleasure spots.  So far I haven't seen any evidence either way of what form of sugar they are making the statement for.    But it does make me think back some years of how I used to defend my belief in sugary fruits.   I had to do a cold turkey to even begin to experiment.     And my present day assumption is that those either from genetic limitations or from years of abusing one's body through any kind of sugar/carb abuse ending up with higher amounts of insulin resistance, will find immediate favor with moving towards ketosis.   And probably those like  yourself who hasn't abused your body with sugar are more than comfortable with fueling with sugar.    In other words, many do what we need to do,, and some never will. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 16, 2014, 10:40:00 pm
@24isours, As I mentioned in the excerpt of mine you quoted, Lex has been taking 100mg iodine and he has been doing so for much more than 3 months. You can read about it in his journal. He reported following a protocol based on the work work of the Drs. Abraham and Brownstein that you are recommending.

My FBG and basal temp quickly and dramatically improved aftering adding more RS to my diet, whereas no dose of iodine (including Lugol's solution), even more than 100mg, had any effect from months of taking it. At this point I'm not seeing the point of continued iodine supplementation, though I have leftover Lugol's and other sources, so I may use some now and then, but I'll probably go with mostly food sources. While there could be hidden benefits like Lex's slight PSA improvement, once I started seeing benefits from RS, I lost interest in supplemental iodine. If I get a bad PSA score in the future, I might reconsider.

Why would I want to do a diet that's so low in carbs that it slows down the production of T3 and then take unnaturally high doses of iodine to offset that? Why wouldn't I just do like Iguana, GCB, GoodSamaritan, Eric, Brady, Lowenherz, Danny Roddy (who was briefly active at the forum in the past and tried Lex Rooker's basic approach with poor results), Spanish Caravan and others and try to eat a more natural diet that doesn't suppress T3? Even Inger at least eats wild berries and greens in summer and Eveheart tries to get iodine from seaweed and seafood instead of high dose supplements from nonfood sources.

I find health results (which biomarkers can help track, like blood work, BG measures, temperature, resting heart rate, blood oxygen saturation, and gut microbiome) more persuasive than hypotheses. Lex Rooker's slight improvement in his PSA number helped interest me in supplemental iodine (in part because a close relative has elevated PSA). If you do get some tests done, I hope you'll share your results. I wouldn't expect them to be as detailed or thorough as Lex's data, nor do I go to that extent myself. I'm hoping your results will be good and I'm hoping that I didn't do any serious long-term damage by not getting much RS for years. Fingers crossed. Who knows, maybe if your test results are stellar I'll get more interested in supplemental iodine again.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 16, 2014, 11:57:18 pm
Phil, I am wondering if you are still using goodly amounts of honey, fermented or other?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Johan August on February 17, 2014, 02:04:48 am
 I have just checked Brownstein's book on iodine and he does not mention FBG or anything related.

I have taken Lugol's iodine for about two years now, beginning after taking an iodine loading test which showed that I was  deficient. What was, and is important to me is iodine's recognized protection value against prostate and breast cancers. I think that it is a bit misguided to take a high dose of iodine and expect it to do anything much about your FBG  and then abandon iodine supplementation when it fails to improve your FBG.

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: eveheart on February 17, 2014, 03:29:43 am
I have just checked Brownstein's book on iodine and he does not mention FBG or anything related.

Dr. Brownstein is the thyroid guy; Dr. Bernstein is the diabetes guy (if this was the source of your confusion).

Quote
Even Inger at least eats wild berries and greens in summer and Eveheart tries to get iodine from seaweed and seafood instead of high dose supplements from nonfood sources.

For the record, I never eat a ZC diet, only VLC - low enough to manage my insulin release and blood sugar levels. I consider VLC to be therapeutic, not paleo, if you understand the distinction.

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Johan August on February 17, 2014, 04:07:51 am


I don't think I am confusing them. I have Richard K Bernstein's book in front of me and he does not mention iodine in the index; I have read parts of his book, not all the parts relating to type 1 diabetes and the practical issues relating to it. I'm not sure what you mean. My ;point was even if there were a good reason for taking iodine for FBG, which I know nothing about, there are other excellent reasons for continuing taking it for reasons not directly related to FBG.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 17, 2014, 05:10:25 am
Something that it appears you've never experienced and are unwilling to experiment with, but continue to offer opinions about nevertheless.   And my opinion is that until you'd ever experience ketosis you won't care to.

1. Why would I be a guinea pig?

2. Even if I would, I couldn’t. As I told you – you even acknowledged that — I’ve never found enough suitable animal fat to fed my hunger in a sustainable way, and when I have some, I can’t eat more than I’m able to digest anyway.

3. I don’t have the necessary knowledge: I don’t know exactly which foods contain or don’t contain carbs.

4. Such an experiment would not prove much: at most that we can survive or even live quite well and feel great for a while without carbs. We already know that.

5. I can’t experiment every possible variants of diet: it would take several lifetimes.

6. What matters is what happens in the long run. A whole lot of people live well and feel perfectly healthy on a mainly cooked standard diet. What does it prove?

Quote
   Which brings me to a couple of recent findings that at least I've seen in the last week.. and that is the growing evidence that we can become addicted as much to sugar as drugs or alcohol, that the brain has addictive pleasure spots.

Such studies are based on the current and wrong belief that something wild and unprocessed, “primal”, can taste good but be bad for our health. I explained it here a few days ago:

Gluttony doesn’t exist in normal, natural (raw paleo) situations. It’s rather the expression of our dietary instinct. 

Yes, he wasn’t thinking about raw paleo in writing that paragraph and he’s of course in the ubiquitous current paradigm that something can taste good while being bad for our health. But this contradiction — which impregnate our whole culture and society in almost every aspect — falls with the instinctive raw paleo diet. Unprocessed wild foods either taste bad and are noxious or taste good and are beneficial.

(...) we can eat too much of domestic animal meats such as beef and lamb, as well as we can eat to much of cultivated fruits. This doesn’t happen with unprocessed, unmixed wild foods.

The paradox that sometimes good = bad  or  bad = good doesn’t exist in natural conditions: if it had been prevalent, animal life on this planet wouldn’t have flourished and we wouldn’t be here.

Think about it, guys. The consequences in all social sciences and even in philosophy (ethics) are tremendous. We finally have a coherent ethic, based on facts. It’s an awesome fundamental revolution!

An outstanding professor of philosophy told us about GCB : “ If our civilization survives, I think he’ll be recognized in the future as one of the greatest thinker of history”.

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 17, 2014, 05:18:13 am
@Van, Yes, I still consume small amounts of RF honey. It provides some nice benefit to my scalp and skin even in small amounts and it's tasty to boot (yet doesn't give me cravings, interestingly). That's a keeper. :)

I have just checked Brownstein's book on iodine and he does not mention FBG or anything related.

I have taken Lugol's iodine for about two years now, beginning after taking an iodine loading test which showed that I was  deficient. What was, and is important to me is iodine's recognized protection value against prostate and breast cancers. I think that it is a bit misguided to take a high dose of iodine and expect it to do anything much about your FBG  and then abandon iodine supplementation when it fails to improve your FBG.

I wasn't claiming that Lugol's is a treatment for FBG, nor that FBG is mentioned in Brownstein's (nor Bernstein's) book. I was responding to the FBG claim from 24isours, such as here:
Those symptoms to me really do sound like thyroid imbalances and research shows most people are deficient in Iodine. I'm sure these people would benefit from eating seaweed or taking some extra Iodine. Btw, I am not recommending megadoses, three to six milligrams for someone on a RPD should be plenty. Even Lex's high FBG can be improved by including some in his diet. I know he did start supplementing for a while ( I believe in megadoses which I find completely unnecessary for someone on a RPD) but I think that was after he had his A1C/FBG checked. I suggest you look into all the positive results Dr. Brownstein and Dr. Abraham had with Iodine supplementation. Results have gone as far as reversing diabetes in some patients.

and his question here:
Did you or Lex take it in high enough doses long enough to reach sufficiency?

If you think 24isours' points re: FBG were wrong, then please take it up with 24isour, as I don't wish to get too deep into an iodine tangent in this thread.

I'm still occasionally using Lugol's and have multiple reasons for increasingly losing interest in it (not yet completely, though) and thinking my focus should be elsewhere, but they probably aren't necessary to get into detail on for the purposes of this thread. What I am interested in that does seem relevant to the thread is an answer to my question to 24isour of why I would want to do a diet that's so low in carbs that it results in "slowing down the production of T3" (per 24isour) and then take the high doses of iodine he noted to offset that and normalize thyroid hormone production?

I'm also noticing that people with a history of ZC or VLC diets (including myself) seem to be more into iodine, Mg and other supplements than people who eat more moderate diets (like Iguana, say). Doesn't that strike anyone as a bit strange? Don't you think it probably looks a bit odd to people like Iguana to see some folks touting ZC or VLC diets and at the same time taking or even recommending high doses of a supplement(s) that those like him eating more carby foods don't find necessary? Sure, it could be coincidence, but maybe not. Wouldn't it be nice if we could find a way to fix the issues that may require us to take more supplements than usual? What if it turns out that increasing our intake of certain plant foods might help with that and what if some of them are foods or food substances that we aren't particularly familiar with? Wouldn't we want to learn more?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 17, 2014, 11:37:36 pm


6..... A whole lot of people live well and feel perfectly healthy on a mainly cooked standard diet. What does it prove?



yeah.. that is the mystery for sure. I think I know the answer now. It all depends on my redox potential. That is why someone can tolerate all kind of stuff while others can not. How do we increase our redox potential? That is the real question we should ask when it comes to health IMHO.......  :)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: goodsamaritan on February 17, 2014, 11:39:04 pm
redox potential?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 18, 2014, 12:30:01 am
I never thought about it as a mystery. The answer is in the first part of my point 6:
“6. What matters is what happens in the long run.”

Some will die of a malignant tumor at 5 years old while some less unlucky ones will live in apparent fine health until they die of cancer at 50, 75 or even 100 years old.

Some individuals may have a better partial adaptation to cooked / Neolithic foods. We are not all identical: we have differences in genetics, in physical constitution, in health, in way of living, in luck, etc.

( Redox potentential: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_potential (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_potential) )  ???  l)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 18, 2014, 10:49:04 am
Redox ties nicely into the gut microbiota:

"the gut microbiota is involved in redox stress damages, motility, angiogenesis, proliferation, differentiation, and fat storage regulation (Huycke & Gaskins, 2004)."
Intestinal Microbiota around Colorectal Cancer Genesis
www.iconceptpress.com/download/paper/12070119594933.pdf (http://www.iconceptpress.com/download/paper/12070119594933.pdf)
 
Redox signaling mediated by the gut microbiota.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23937589 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23937589)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: paper_clips43 on February 19, 2014, 01:58:25 am
    Yes, it is way more ingested by most people but has been proven to be one the most deficient minerals in ones' diet.
    I've already provided a link of research that shows low carb diets slowing down the production of T3 (thyroid hormone) - which has a large influence on glucose metabolism. Let me break down my hypothesis:

    • Carbohydrates Stimulate Thyroid Hormone (including RS as it is a carb)
    • Low Carbohydrate Diets slow production of T3 (Thyroid Hormone)
      • Thyroid Hormone is a huge player in blood glucose regulation
      • Iodine Deficiency is extremely common
        • Iodine Sufficiency leads to normalization of thyroid hormone production
        • TSH Levels can come back 'normal' on those deficient in Iodine in their blood work

      Did you or Lex take it in high enough doses long enough to reach sufficiency? Tests results would most likely not improve considerably until sufficiency levels are reached. Doses of 50mg for 3 months can be used to reach sufficiency.
      ------

      Of course this is all a hypothesis and I haven't gotten blood work since becoming Iodine sufficient and starting my RZC diet but I think one is in order.



How often do you eat Thyroid Gland?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on February 19, 2014, 09:24:04 am
Dang, How have I missed this conversation.....

Lethal recipe for disaster may be a bit overreaching.

There are subtle variations in the metabolic systems of individuals which may account for why some people, including myself, native American, and Inuit do not suffer and die from a lack of carbohydrates.

I point out the fact that the liver is capable of converting fat and protein into carbohydrate, so that even people like myself who eat around 30 to 40 carbohydrates per day, may in fact be able to produce 100 grams or more of carbohydrate each day in the liver. Which is enough to sustain good health.

Perhaps eating above the threshold of whats considered ketogenic has a negative effect on the livers ability to produce carbs, in people who are low carb adapted...

Also eating below a certain threshold , as in the case of ZC my also have a negative effect on the enzymatic , and metabolic systems. Though some people may have some adaptation which allows them to thrive on a diet close to zero carbs.

I am postulating that there must be a 'sweet spot' when it comes to optimal carb intake., and this sweet spot is dependent on a number of factors which are completely subjective and must be calculated on an individual basis, and therefore its ridiculous to argue about it.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 20, 2014, 03:17:22 am
 
I am postulating that there must be a 'sweet spot' when it comes to optimal carb intake., and this sweet spot is dependent on a number of factors which are completely subjective and must be calculated on an individual basis, and therefore its ridiculous to argue about it.

Yes, there’s certainly an individual and variable  “sweet spot” for the amount of sweets  :). But if we have a sufficient choice of different unprocessed raw paleo foods and if we never eat any cooked-processed-spiced-mixed foods or non paleo foods, this is automatically controlled and adjusted. How would you calculate it? 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 20, 2014, 05:19:45 am
I never saw long time instinctos eat moderately on sweet fruits, to even suggest there was some amount of moderation at play.   I doubt that the concept was present.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 20, 2014, 05:28:07 am
It depends what you call "moderately". We eat a lot of fruits, but not more than what suits us.

I state the obvious but obviously the obvious has to be stated, ha, ha...  :)  ;D
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Sorentus on February 22, 2014, 06:46:51 am
What if one happens to be intolerant to every anti nutriment because of a severely deficient gut?

The thing about RS is that they are good for as long as you posses a good gut flora with the bacteria adapted for it, someone who has a messed up GI tract might not tolerate them well, some potato starch I believe also contain anti nutriment even in the extracted form so one could be having a negative reaction from them.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 22, 2014, 07:56:26 am
Excellent question, Sorrentus. Anti-nutrients and toxins are only one side of the coin. There are also pronutrients and antitoxins. To build up one's resilience, so that the natural antinutrients in raw Paleo foods are less of a problem, one can use the pronutrients and antitoxins.

One way to do this is to consume prebiotics that feed our butyrate-producing Old Friends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis#Old_friends) in the gut. Butyrate helps generate glutathione (http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/6/1064.full.pdf) and gut bacteria also help synthesize B vitamins (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21933312). Both glutathione and B vitamins are antitoxins. Old Friends (such as probiotic bacteria) and butyrate also help calm down an overactive immune system. Someone who has a good supply of Old Friends, butyrate, glutathione, and B vitamins would presumably be more resilient to food toxins.

See also:

The Human Microbiome, Diet, and Health: Workshop Summary, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK154087 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK154087)

Resistant Starch: Now We’re Getting Somewhere, Part 2 (35 links to research), http://freetheanimal.com/2013/06/resistant-starch-now-we%E2%80%99re-getting-somewhere-part-2-35-links-to-research.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2013/06/resistant-starch-now-we%E2%80%99re-getting-somewhere-part-2-35-links-to-research.html)

Some of My Best Friends Are Germs, http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/magazine/say-hello-to-the-100-trillion-bacteria-that-make-up-your-microbiome.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/19/magazine/say-hello-to-the-100-trillion-bacteria-that-make-up-your-microbiome.html?pagewanted=all)

There are multiple sources of RS, so that if potato starch doesn't work well for you, you can use something else. I have multiple sources and potato starch isn't my top fave. Some folks also have good luck by starting out slow and gradually building up their intake of RS. Feel free to PM me about it.

Slainte mhath!
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Sorentus on February 22, 2014, 09:03:28 am
Yeah I've tried probiotic a few times from SBO to other lacto/bifidus ones. I tried b-vitamin supplement and eating a lot of ghee for the buryric acid. I haven't found any of it useful and even lots of oil doesn't even make me go. I ate at times 12 tablespoon of coconut oil and although my liver wanted to explode, I didn't go. I likely have severe gut dysbiosis. 

I feel the one only real way to hope to introduce the bacteria strain that we might miss for proper digestion is a Fecal Transplant. Something I want to get done, you just don't know which old friend you might be lacking, it might just not even be there anymore and probitoic might not offer the right strain you need. Bacterias all do very different things and we only know so much about them. I even had a 40 Hookworms injection about 3 weeks ago and I'm hoping it helps my immune system stop attacking itself so that I can introduce fruits.

Right now meat doesn't seem to give me an intolerance reaction, I get several intestinal pain but I think it might be my body having a though time adapting. I don't even eat fruits because I can't safely tolerate them. I tried all elimination diet there is and meat is the only food that doesn't make me look pregnant after I eat it. I also went and decided to limit myself to 1Tbs of raw honey with meat rather then the 3 I would have  :P.

With fermented honey, fermented veggie and high meat, fecal transplant and hookworm, I HOPE I get to eat fruits without symptoms and be able to introduce RS.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 22, 2014, 10:36:52 am
I suggest you try cassia pods from orkos.  Iguana could tell you more if you're interested.   They are a great laxative and cleanser.  If you do get them ( they're about an inch in diameter and a foot to foot and a half long with many little discs that you suck on,,)  start with just one or two a day on an empty stomach, building up by one additional to what ever your body needs. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Sorentus on February 22, 2014, 11:14:53 am
What exactly is orkos? I couldn't find it on google.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 22, 2014, 11:45:23 am
it's a distribution co. in France that imports all sorts of food from all over the world.  Why don't you pm Iguana
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 22, 2014, 03:46:32 pm
There's a topic about cassia fistula: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/cassia-fistula-why-when-how-much/ (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/instinctoanopsology/cassia-fistula-why-when-how-much/)
The sticks are a bout 1 cm in diameter rather than 1 inch.
Orkos: http://www.orkos.com/index_FR.php (http://www.orkos.com/index_FR.php)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Sorentus on February 23, 2014, 01:10:30 am
That's too bad, French is my native language but I live in Canada  :P and they only deliver in Europe, but it's a good reference.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 23, 2014, 04:43:27 am
Yeah I've tried probiotic a few times from SBO to other lacto/bifidus ones.
I was mainly talking about prebiotics, which are the foods that feed our good gut bacteria, such as resistant starch, fruit pectin, oligosaccharides, mucins, gums and inulin. I'm also taking the Prescript Assist probiotic these days, and I eat some probiotic foods.

I also didn't get any benefit from ghee when I tried it, and that and heated EVCO made me nauseous. I ended up throwing them out. I found butter and centrifuged coconut oil to be far superior, with no noticeable negative effects, though I don't notice much benefit from them either, and of course, lots of folks here warn against eating butter and some purists warn against even centrifuged coconut oil because it's "processed."

Fecal transplant is a promising treatment for the future. Doing it on one's own risks getting pathogens from someone, so I doubt I'll try that, at least not as long as I'm getting improvements from prebiotics (and maybe eventually probiotics).

Let us know how the hookworms go.

There are multiple sources of RS, not just potato starch.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Sorentus on February 23, 2014, 06:45:24 am
Which other source of RS would you recommend? Beside potato I can only see corn and banana and I don't digest banana well.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 23, 2014, 08:03:41 am
I'll PM you, as I don't want to possibly trigger a debate over what's Paleo and such.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on February 23, 2014, 09:50:16 am
Sorentus, ever try coconut?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Sorentus on February 23, 2014, 10:01:51 am
In what form? I tried Raw coconut, coconut oil, coconut flour, coconut secret aminos(soya sauce substitute) and I bought coconut sugar which I'll likely won't try anytime soon.

Coconut flour is full of insoluble fiber, not sure if that's a RS you refer to.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on February 25, 2014, 09:48:53 am
I use coconut butter which is dehydrated blended whole coconut flesh. There isn't a lot of info I could find about coconut in the RS bonanza blogs, but I suspect that coconut fiber can be just as beneficial as other source of resistance starch in producing a healthy gut ecology in certain individuals. 

Raw coconut has a laxative effect that limits how much I can eat, but for some reason dehydrated coconut isn't a problem and I can eat it without the issues which other fiber rich plant foods can cause.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 25, 2014, 10:41:08 am
probably due to the fine particle size of the coconut in the butter, being not as irritating to the wall of either small or large intestine.  To get to that smooth buttery state, the coconut is subjected to a Lot of grinding which more than likely gets pretty hot, and incorporates lots of oxidizing air during the grinding. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Sorentus on February 27, 2014, 09:44:06 am
Phil, here is something I came across today and I think you might enjoy. It talks about the effects on gut flora and more of doing VLC. It talks about why its good to get RS in the diet and give stuff to feed the bacterias.

http://chriskresser.com/you-are-what-your-bacteria-eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach (http://chriskresser.com/you-are-what-your-bacteria-eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach)

and someone experimenting ZC and the effects on his gut flora. Although it follows paleo it's unlikely raw.

http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/ (http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on February 27, 2014, 10:19:30 am
check out the latter of the links,  can't wait to see what he learned.    I'll say it again,  we are at the very beginnings of knowing what is 'good' flora, for obviously there are many types all over the world..
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on February 28, 2014, 12:20:40 am
Excellent research premise! These are the kinds of studies I would like to see hit the mainstream.

Perhaps studies like this could validate the claims of people like A.V. and other less known anti germ theory advocates such as the Hi meat eaters on this forum.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: micelte on February 28, 2014, 02:37:19 am
Thank you for the links. It's quite amazing to see that scientists are now starting to reveal to the world the importance of having straight contact and ingest microbes in order to gain health.

Here is an extract of another blog post from the same website (http://humanfoodproject.com/please-pass-microbes/ (http://humanfoodproject.com/please-pass-microbes/)) about Hadza's people litteraly eating the bacteria from their dead Impala:

Before the two Hadza men I was with jumped in to help skin and gut the Impala, I quickly took swabs of each of their hands (and 1 hour after, 3 hours after, and so on) to assess how the skin (palm) microbiota change throughout the day/week of a typical Hadza. As they slowly and methodically dismembered the animal, they carefully placed the stomach and its still steaming contents on the fleshy side of the recently removed hide. In a separate area, they piled the fatty internal organs (which men are only allowed to eat by the way). Once the animal had been processed more or less, I was amazed to see all three men take a handful of the partially digested plant material from the recently removed stomach to scrub off the copious amounts of blood that now covered their hands and foreman’s. This was followed by a final “cleaning” with dry grass for good measure.

While I was fascinated by the microbe-laden stomach contents being used as hand scrubber – presumably transferring an extraordinary diversity of microbes from the Impala gut to the hands of the Hadza – I was not prepared for what they did next. Once they had cleaned out – by hand – the contents of the stomach (“cleaned” is a generous word), they carved pieces of the stomach into bite-sized chunks and consumed it sushi-style. By which I mean they didn’t cook it or attempt to kill or eliminate the microbes from the gut of the Impala in anyway. And if this unprecedented transfer of microbes from the skin, blood, and stomach of another mammal wasn’t enough, they then turned their attention to the colon of the Impala.

After removing the poo pellets (which we collect samples of as well), they tossed the tubular colon onto a hastily built fire. However, it only sat on the fire for a minute at best and clearly not long enough to terminate the menagerie of invisible microbes clinging to the inside wall of the colon. They proceeded to cut the colon into chunks and to eat more or less raw.


As a conclusion, the future probably belongs to the bush, city dwellers good luck! ;)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: micelte on February 28, 2014, 02:47:00 am
OK, and to go back to the subject (sorry my previous post was a little off...), here is an interesting selected extract from http://humanfoodproject.com/sorry-low-carbers-your-microbiome-is-just-not-that-into-you/: (http://humanfoodproject.com/sorry-low-carbers-your-microbiome-is-just-not-that-into-you/:)

A bit of a paradox in all of this is the increased likelihood that a low carb microbial community will most certainly lead to increased gut permeability – a well-known phenomenon whereby microbial parts (lipopolysaccharides, which leads to metabolic endotoxemia) and whole microbes themselves (bacteremia) leak from the intestinal track into the blood, leading to low-grade inflammation that is at the root of metabolic diseases such as type 2 diabetes, obesity and heart disease. So it is a paradox that a leaky gut that can be triggered from a low carb (high fat) diet – and a possible increase in gram-negative bacteria and a reduction in healthy bacteria like Bifidobacterium – doesn’t result in weight gain as demonstrated in study after study in mice and humans. Weird.

I hope people do not take this as some kind of attack on low carb diets – couldn’t be farther from the truth. There is NO AGENDA. Again, NO AGENDA. (It’s worth noting I consume a high fat, high protein, high fiber diet). Just wanted to point out some obvious concerns (maybe unfounded) and that if we get a large enough sample of low carb folks in American Gut, we might be able to provide some interesting insight – or not. Who knows, maybe low carb folks have super healthy gut microbiota (whatever that is).

So to my low carb brothers and sisters out there, try and eat a little more fibrous material if you can – diversity matters –  and help your gut bugs help you. It’s what evolution intended.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on February 28, 2014, 03:01:34 am
I have no gut issues at all... eating very little plant matter if any. But I do high meat... and all kind of bacteria rich foods like raw fish head smoothie... oysters... and I eat wild edibles when they grow, with dirt on... in summer own carrots with dirt from the yard.

the only reason I eat the carrots is because of the... dirt.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: micelte on February 28, 2014, 03:12:16 am
Great Inger, thanks for sharing. I am actually not criticizing low carbers here - just publishing what I found and what may be of interest to everyone...

In the end, anyways, it's the FEELINGS which matter, not the science ;)

Take care
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: micelte on February 28, 2014, 03:12:46 am
In the next post, you are the devil by the way, Inger :D
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on February 28, 2014, 03:16:32 am
Thanks Micelte, very interesting. That's why it's important not to wash our food, especially as we usually don't drink water from puddles as animals do. There are plenty of all kinds of bacteria on the fruit and plant's skin. Juice of washed grapes, for example, won't ferment into wine because the yeast which is present on their skin has been washed away: I learned it at the oenology school back in 1966! Of course, nowadays those random and various yeast are killed with SO2 after which the must is seeded again with a selected species of yeast.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: eveheart on February 28, 2014, 03:18:06 am
http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/ (http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/)

Great links, Sorentus! Thanks for posting them.

Quote
Name just about any ailment plaguing humanity and you will find some researcher, somewhere, working the microbial angle for a causal or correlative connection.
What I take from this article is that everybody has a gut microbiome. Duh, right? But it bears saying that the gut balances itself to the foods being eaten. We don't need to focus on which diet is balanced correctly and which one is not. But if one is sick, the gut microbiome should not be overlooked.

The title of the article says a lot. I'm not a scientist, but knowing that my gut microbiome will adjust to my intake ratios, I think I can use some degree of poo-observation to gauge my own experiments. If my gut is well enough to start with, (and I'm sure it is), I should find a sweet spot of more-good-bacteria, less-bad bacteria with dietary balance alone, without resorting to fecal implants or other outside remedies.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: paper_clips43 on February 28, 2014, 07:12:53 am
I have no gut issues at all... eating very little plant matter if any. But I do high meat... and all kind of bacteria rich foods like raw fish head smoothie... oysters... and I eat wild edibles when they grow, with dirt on... in summer own carrots with dirt from the yard.

the only reason I eat the carrots is because of the... dirt.

Any chance you could elaborate on your fish head smoothie? Which fish and what parts do you use?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: micelte on February 28, 2014, 07:37:59 am
Quote from Inger from an older thread:

Quote
I do fishhead-smoothie from fatty fishheads, raw. Just cut the head into pieces with a scissor and add water and blend until smooth in a mixer. Drink. Isn't too delicious but I hold my nose. You can add the guts too and liver and all. Very healthy.

I did a smoothie from prefrozen sardines yesterday but I think that was not good idea. I got the runs tonight/morning and cramping in my stomach. I guess the fatty fish might have gone a bit rancid? Cause they do - even if frozen. Tasted great to me but sardines do have strong and salty taste so it might have covered the rancidness? I ate the meat of the sardines pure and raw yesterday without anything and it tasted great to me? Strange. Or it was plain too much fat.. It is so long since I had such stomach distress, it almost never happends to me. Or it could have been the raw prefrozen scallops that I had too, yesterday? No idea. Anyways, I just ate a huge breakfast with elkmeat, sauerkraut and coconutoil and I am fine now.
I guess I will stay away from the sardines a while though.. It might be something added to prefrozen seafood, that I don't know of.. stay nothing on the package though. But who knows!

I would by whole mackerel always. Then you get the roe and fishmilk and liver and all! So good for you. I use to take the guts out the same day as I buy the fish and then they hold fine a few days in the fridge. I do smoothie from the heads and guts and from the file ts I do sashimi or tartar or anything delicious! I always eat them raw. Fatty fish I never cook, does not sit well in my stomach. But non fatty is fine gently cooked - for me at least.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on February 28, 2014, 08:25:12 pm
Phil, here is something I came across today and I think you might enjoy. It talks about the effects on gut flora and more of doing VLC. It talks about why its good to get RS in the diet and give stuff to feed the bacterias.

http://chriskresser.com/you-are-what-your-bacteria-eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach (http://chriskresser.com/you-are-what-your-bacteria-eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach)

and someone experimenting ZC and the effects on his gut flora. Although it follows paleo it's unlikely raw.

http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/ (http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/)
Yes, those are goodies. The Human Food Project is one thing I had in mind when I suggested to Lex that testing his gut microbiome would be interesting. They are asking for VLC Paleo dieters like Lex and Sabertooth to do the test, because they are particularly interested in what the results will be in such unusual cases.

I asked my healthcare provider about doing a gut microbiome test, but so far she hasn't shown interest and hers is the only medical group that is reported to do such a test in my area.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on March 01, 2014, 03:05:30 am

I've tried to post a comment at the bottom of the article, in order to get someones attention, but it says its pending moderation.

I also tried to post on the projects facebook page and it was taken down.

How would you go about contacting Jeff Leach to offer contributions to his research?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on March 01, 2014, 03:06:56 am
Any chance you could elaborate on your fish head smoothie? Which fish and what parts do you use?

haha... Michelte gave you the answer. Easy peasy, just cut off the fish heads, add in the roe or whatever organs you want, and run through a food processor with some water. Drink. Yuck. I always hold my nose. But makes me feel awesome!

Have had only one issue with raw fish as far as I remember, it is in the quote from Michelte. I survived just fine lol I bet my gut gets stronger every time. I even eat dead oysters without issues. Not the bad smelling ones tho.  ;)

I need to make a fish head smoothie video! I will when I get to it, so busy lately with our construction business... holy moly I am not good at this work at all being a waitress my whole life, eh
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 01, 2014, 06:13:43 am
Sabertooth, anyone can participate in Jeff Leach's American Gut Project by donating $99 to the nonprofit to cover costs and following the instructions at http://humanfoodproject.com/americangut (http://humanfoodproject.com/americangut)

Jeff has repeatedly said that he is especially interested in the participation of people on unusual diets like Paleo, VLC, and such, because not a lot of people follow these approaches, so it's hard to get a big enough sample to make for a statistically significant dataset, and they would also be an interesting contrast to the more common dietary approaches and might reveal some interesting results.

By doing so, VLCers can also put their money where their mouth is and put their claims about the healthiness of chronic VLC to the test. Test results are more likely to persuade others than claims, theories and opinions.

I may do it myself, because I so far haven't been able to interest my healthcare provider in prescribing a gut microbiome test.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on March 01, 2014, 06:33:46 am
Cool,

If I can get enough money on my tax return, I will participate.

 My girlfriend may sign up too. She is higher carb eating and more vegetarian, so it would be interesting to know the differences in our gut microbes.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Sorentus on March 01, 2014, 06:40:32 am
I'm happy to see the interests in gut microbe's composition. I would surely participate in it if my funds would allow it, I am very curious in my microbiota composition. I will be getting FMT and will report in my journal if it has made any significant change in my digestion.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on March 01, 2014, 09:39:02 am
I'm all for it... I do think 'they' may not have the answer as to what the ideal gut balance is, yet..  Including different floras for different diets and different folks, and different regions.  Human nature will sure provoke early 'answers' but I bet you a nickel, in ten years there will be different answers.   This isn't to say that they will probably alert some who have less than 'healthy' bacteria. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 01, 2014, 07:51:21 pm
Yup, that's why they're doing the research, and they are also checking the gut bacteria of some Hadza people:

Quote
our work with the Hadzabe hunter-gatherers in Tanzania will allow us to compare our western selves to people who still hunt and gather the majority of their food, have limited access to western medications, are all born naturally and breastfed for 2+ years, live outside more or less 24/7, are covered in microbial-laden soil (natures blanket), and that have an intimate connection to a vast (natural) microbial world that we in the so-called developed world have moved away from. We don’t know what we will learn over the coming years, but it’s a given we will be a little smarter when it comes to modulating and nudging our gut microbes in a healthier direction with diet and lifestyle choices (I sure hate to see Big Pharma drug our microbiome into compliance – lets not let it happen folks!). http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/ (http://humanfoodproject.com/going-feral-one-year-journey-acquire-healthiest-gut-microbiome-world-heard/)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on March 02, 2014, 01:54:57 am
I wish they'd have a more varied control group than just the Hazda's,,  and yes, I know that original people's are hard to find.  But fish eating cultures, cultures who focus on vegetables, Mongolians who include milk....   Would give a broader knowledge base on what might be healthy bacteria profiles. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 02, 2014, 04:38:56 am
They already have examined many traditional and semi-traditional groups (and modern populations) in various parts of the world and are seeking to continue to expand the survey, and Jeff talked some about this in the sentence right before the excerpt I quoted:
Quote
In addition to a large sample of westerners, we will also able to compare these tens of thousands of samples to other data sets – including groups from Africa, India, South America, and so on.
The Hadza just happen to be the population they could find and access that is living closest to the hunter-gatherer past of humans. They were actually a recent addition to the survey, after Jeff pointed out that the Hadza were living more like HGs than most of the populations they had sampled, so that they would be an interesting addition.

They have also begged for people like you, Van, to provide their samples. It's a chance for you to provide evidence to support the efficacy of your diet. While the human gut microbiome is not fully understood, like you mentioned, and it's not clear what is optimal, there is apparently enough known to get some rough sense of whose gut is rather messed up (such as high levels of pathogenic bacteria or extremely low levels of all bacteria).

Jeff even welcomes people to make suggestions in the comments on his blog about what diets he should test himself, though he doesn't have time to test everything, of course.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on March 02, 2014, 06:32:34 am
good,  I'll have to take the time and read through it,, have it bookmarked.    I think he really needs some of the samples from zero carb group,, those who have 'starved their microbes'.   I still eat seaweed ( which I wonder about it's content of RS, certainly doesn't digest in the stomach), some pieces of kale,  meyer lemons, occasional nuts in the shell, pumpkin seeds fairly regularly, sunchokes, garlic routinely, small amounts of honey, coconut, occasional avocado,  but probably low enough in carbs where I never really get out of ketosis.   I'll still look for the evidence that we need all these friendly bacteria.   Obviously if we didn't eat nutrient rich foods, we would  then depend on the bacteria to produce or excrete their by products for us to feed on.     Let's see what he learns.    One interesting finding might be;   when we are breast fed, Bifidus bacteria predominate.  They are milk sugar feeding bacteria.  As we grow into adults, those bifidus bacteria switch over to other bacteria that don't require lactose.  Now then, with tribes that don't eat enough carbs, RS or not, to support those carb eating bacteria,  what's there in their place.  What's in a lion's gut, or tiger's or shark or whale, or wolves'.    They don't seem to perish without eating RS.     Like I said, it's a new frontier.    Another guess is that future products on the market shelfs will include genetically modified bacteria that will be purported to do it all.  One's that will gobble up all the crap, like chocolate cake and fake ice cream and turn it into healthy byproducts.  Hell, soon we'll be selling our crap to developing third would countries. 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: eveheart on March 02, 2014, 08:20:34 am
... I think he really needs some of the samples from zero carb group,, those who have 'starved their microbes'.

LOL! I've read lots on the humanfoodproject.com, and I find that their gut microbiome work is particularly unbiased. Great care is taken to avoid foregone conclusions at the research level. My take-away is that everyone has gut bacteria - so no starved microbes! - and profiles vary according to food profiles. There is no bragging, "My microbes are better than your microbes, nyah, nyah, nyah!" There is no sensationalism there, which I find refreshing in this day and age.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on March 02, 2014, 08:35:20 am
A real point of interest should be in the composition of microbes in the gut of a zero carber. The carnivorous gut must be full of flesh eating bacteria, while void of plant fermentation varieties. They may also discover that supposedly harmful strains of bacteria can live in harmony in the guts of these extreme dieters. People who have been consuming highmeat for years, are capable of harboring gut flora which would make the average person extremely ill.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on March 02, 2014, 03:42:50 pm
Phil, why this emphasis on resistant starch? Why don't you (and others) put the same emphasis on prebiotics in general, such as inulin? Is there something special about RS?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 02, 2014, 11:58:11 pm
Phil, why this emphasis on resistant starch? Why don't you (and others) put the same emphasis on prebiotics in general, such as inulin? Is there something special about RS?
It's a reflection of peoples' current biases. For some reason, people don't tend to have a problem with eating foods that contain other prebiotics like inulin, but resist (pun intended  -d ) eating those that contain resistant starch. The word "starch" seems to have been demonized, so that it is apparently a turn-off for many. It's not a matter of inulin versus resistant starch, it's a matter of consuming both (and certainly not neither, as with ZC). Since many raw Paleoists are already familiar with inulin and probably consume decent amounts of it, that is less of a concern then the paucity of RS consumption and the lack of understanding about it, though I do also talk about inulin-rich foods like jicama and use the term "prebiotics" often to stress the importance of getting a variety of them.

As a matter of fact, Jicama is one of my favorite foods. I found that the key with jicama is to buy the smallest ones, as they are the tastiest. Since I like to consume a variety of prebiotics, I even created a raw salad in which I combine jicama with other prebiotic foods, and it's yummy.

People tend to be already more familiar with inulin, because there is marketing of products that contain it, such as Fiber Choice, Citrucel, Benefibre, etc. There is not nearly as much marketing of resistant starch, and it also has that demonized word "starch" in it, so until recently most people (including me) have been less familiar with it and less curious about it. Can you name a single marketed fiber tablet or powder that is advertised as a resistant starch fiber supplement? Even though Bob's Red Mill has a potato starch product, they don't yet market it as a fiber supplement.

Interestingly, I read about a study that found that inulin was actually the least beneficial prebiotic that they tested (which was surprising to me), with RS and others found to be more beneficial, so the marketing hype seems to be out of proportion with reality (I don't have the study at hand, sorry).

I was already eating plenty of inulin at the time I tried RS, and I benefited nonetheless. It doesn't make sense to assume that eating just inulin will cover all bases.

Given that resistant starch and other prebiotics are highest in raw foods, why aren't rawists embracing them as an indication that our ancestors ate and benefited from these raw foods and using them as an argument for eating more raw?

Some of the more open minded VLCers have experimented with RS and reported benefits. The latest one is Tom Naughton, maker of the Fathead movie (I posted about it here: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/fantastic-health-benefits-of-butyrate-6649/msg119953/#msg119953 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/fantastic-health-benefits-of-butyrate-6649/msg119953/#msg119953)). He was skeptical of resistant starch first, and even wrote a blog article poo-pooing it (oops, pun not intended that time  ;D ) years ago based on one bad study, but then an ex-VLCer tipped him off about better research on it that he read and was impressed. He reported his success on Jimmy Moore's  most recent Low Carb Conversations podcast. On the same podcast, famous committed VLCer and ketogenic dieter Jimmy Moore even announced that he's going to do an n=1 experiment with RS.

Lots of Primal Blueprint dieters were negative about resistant starch until Mark Sisson wrote a positive article about it, after having earlier been dismissive of it. Now a fair number of people at his forum are experimenting with it and reporting benefits. It seems that a lot of people need to see their favorite gurus give the OK to something before they'll try it. So if Jimmy's experiment is successful, we may see another wave of experimenters.

I was also a VLCer (albeit a de facto one) and skeptic when I first heard about RS. You can read my skeptical early comments about it at this very forum. Doesn't that say something about RS, when even the skeptics are changing their minds about it after trying it or reading the research?

So the question isn't why would a growing number of people who have tried RS-rich foods and benefited emphasize RS, it's why are so many of the rest still belittling it before trying it?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Hanna on March 03, 2014, 04:06:50 pm
People tend to be already more familiar with inulin, because there is marketing of products that contain it, such as Fiber Choice, Citrucel, Benefibre, etc. (...)
Interestingly, I read about a study that found that inulin was actually the least beneficial prebiotic that they tested (which was surprising to me), with RS and others found to be more beneficial, so the marketing hype seems to be out of proportion with reality (I don't have the study at hand, sorry).

I was already eating plenty of inulin at the time I tried RS, and I benefited nonetheless.
Now I understand.
According to the following article, combinations of carbohydrates "may have synergistic effects on the SCFA pattern and may also shift the site of fermentation“ and therefore be more effective than the supplementation of single sources of indigestible carbs. Therefore, eating whole vegetables such as Belgian endive or a broad range of vegetables could be much more effective than, for example, inulin supplements.

Quote
Most studies have been performed on substrates tested as single sources of indigestible carbohydrates, which is not representative of a human diet that contains a complex mixture of carbohydrates. The combination of different indigestible carbohydrates may influence the fermentation pattern, and a mixture of pectin and guar gum gave a higher proportion of butyric acid in the caecum of rats (15%) compared to the individual substrates (10 and 6%, respectively) (Henningsson A,Bjorck I, Nyman M, unpublished results). Further, the site for SCFA generation in the colon is likely to be dependent on how rapidly fermented the carbohydrate is. Interestingly, it has been demonstrated that the fermentation of easily fermentable high-amylose maize starch could be shifted to the distal colon of rats, when fed in mixture with a slowly fermentable dietary fibre, e.g. psyllium (61). This is an interesting observation since it provides a dietary tool to increase butyric acid formation in the distal colon where most colonic cancers appear in humans.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=short-chain%20fatty%20acid%20formation%20at%20fermentation%20of%20indigestible%20carbohydrates%20by%20ifsa%20henningsson%2C%20inger%20bjiirck%20and%20margareta%20nyman&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foodandnutritionresearch.net%2Findex.php%2Ffnr%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F1801%2F1708&ei=27J3T9z7Oeb50gGsyaTTDQ&usg=AFQjCNHPQ2xu4rVbuYSDdDAYQbkngcCrIg&cad=rja (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=short-chain%20fatty%20acid%20formation%20at%20fermentation%20of%20indigestible%20carbohydrates%20by%20ifsa%20henningsson%2C%20inger%20bjiirck%20and%20margareta%20nyman&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foodandnutritionresearch.net%2Findex.php%2Ffnr%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F1801%2F1708&ei=27J3T9z7Oeb50gGsyaTTDQ&usg=AFQjCNHPQ2xu4rVbuYSDdDAYQbkngcCrIg&cad=rja)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 03, 2014, 08:19:48 pm
Yes, thank goodness some people are getting it. It is a health nightmare that more and more people are deciding that this or that ancient food is "unnecessary" or even poisonous, especially in light of the development of supergerms. Even if we do not need them, our gut bacteria do. The people warning about this don't need to prove it, people have never tried going without these foods. The people claiming we are better off without them need to prove it. If they don't stop spreading the lies, the deaths will be on their conscience.

If you read up on the Old Friends Hypothesis and think about it all, it should become still more clear.

Belgine endive is a good example. I tried it and it had an unusual mild bitterness that I liked. I'm trying to eat a wider variety of prebiotic foods. As a scientist, Jeff Leach can't tell people what to do, but pay attention to what he eats. Tatertot Tim and Richard aren't scientists so they are telling people. They may be getting some things wrong for all we know, but the people who try their suggestions are mostly reporting dramatic benefits.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on March 03, 2014, 08:28:09 pm
Judging from the data re wikipedia etc., resistant starch is most easily obtained from cooked foods, not raw ones. When resistant starch is indeed present in a raw food, most of the time that very raw food is high in antinutrients and therefore highly unlikely to have been eaten in palaeo times, and should not be eaten at all, therefore,  in accordance with palaeo guidelines.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on March 03, 2014, 09:14:51 pm
Tyler, we spoke a few times about chufas, which contains a lot of RS, grow also wild and are very tasty for most people. Thus we can assume that at least these chufas were sometimes eaten in paleo times.

Phil asked me (in some other thread) what RS containing plants are in the instincto food range. I had a look at the Wikipedia page and there's a short list of RS containing foods. In it there are several foods sometimes eaten by instinctos: green peas, slightly green bananas (preferably plantains) and — soaked and in occasional small amounts — lentils, oats, barley. 3 days ago I found a few wild grains and I tested it as promised to you. You said no point, but anyway the experiment was done; it tasted fine, like oats, but there wasn’t much to eat in each and it would take a whole day to only slightly fed oneself.

It may not be in accordance with usual paleo guidelines, but the facts are there that these grains eaten once in while in limited amount did not cause any troubles on experimental animals and on humans, contrary to wheat.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on March 03, 2014, 11:53:42 pm
Rubbish.

Don't bother mentioning chufas again, as they contain plentiful amounts of antinutrients/phytosterols.

Any genuine Instincto in palaeo times would have avoided unripe bananas and gone in for ripe yellow ones instead, for obvious reasons re taste. Plantains, huh? One of the most tasteless plant foods  I have ever eaten.

Soaking in water is a form of processing.  This would not have occurred until the Neolithic era  for obvious reasons, since food preparation in palaeo times would have consisted of no more than hiding food under a rock to let it decompose. Letting foods decompose is about the only natural form of processing  there is.

One anyway only has to look at the types of resistant starch mentioned on Wikipedia to see how incredibly unnatural they are:-

"RS1 Physically inaccessible or digestible resistant starch, such as that found in seeds or legumes and unprocessed whole grains
RS2 Resistant starch that occurs in its natural granular form, such as uncooked potato, green banana flour and high amylose corn
RS3 Resistant starch that is formed when starch-containing foods are cooked and cooled such as in legumes,[2] bread, cornflakes and cooked-and-chilled potatoes, pasta salad or sushi rice. Occurs due to retrogradation, which refers to the collective processes of dissolved starch becoming less soluble after being heated and dissolved in water and then cooled.
RS4 Starches that have been chemically modified to resist digestion. This type of resistant starches can have a wide variety of structures and are not found in nature."

The bottom line is, sure, we can always do things to make a food "less worse"/"less unhealthy" but these processes cannot turn that food into a healthy one.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: LePatron7 on March 04, 2014, 04:38:09 am
Rubbish.

If I had a nickel.. Lol TD do you notice that a lot of times when someone mentions something you disagree with it's always "rubbish," "that's absurd," or some other remark expressing how much you disagree?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on March 04, 2014, 05:16:48 am
I agree,,  a little bit like the boy who called wolf...
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on March 04, 2014, 05:49:24 am
I agree,,  a little bit like the boy who called wolf...
This is just a means of expression. I use it especially when people are using anti-raw or anti-palaeo arguments. The one Iguana is using is a hoary, old one used by anti-rawists in order to justify cooking, which is why I am most surprised to find him using it.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: van on March 04, 2014, 06:29:16 am
Two things,, first is I don't think Iguana has any intention of mentioning it and promoting cooking...  But the other, is how the word 'rubbish' comes across in written form.  It simply doesn't promote healthy debate.  I can see it used in a lively person to person conversation, where you can see body and facial expression, but here, I think if you wrote that to me about something I had written, I might take it the wrong way.      And then I always appreciate your varied opinions...
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 04, 2014, 06:55:03 am
Don't bother mentioning chufas again, as they contain plentiful amounts of antinutrients/phytosterols.

Any genuine Instincto in palaeo times would have avoided unripe bananas and gone in for ripe yellow ones instead, for obvious reasons re taste. Plantains, huh? One of the most tasteless plant foods  I have ever eaten.

Soaking in water is a form of processing.  This would not have occurred until the Neolithic era  for obvious reasons, since food preparation in palaeo times would have consisted of no more than hiding food under a rock to let it decompose. Letting foods decompose is about the only natural form of processing  there is.
So if chufas are still verboten despite being edible raw and Iguana liking their taste, then is the real problem with them not that they taste vile after all? I don't recall you mentioning before that chufas are too high in antinutrients/phytosterols. Did you find some information on that? How do you know they contain too much  antinutrients/phytosterols that can’t be mostly metabolized into harmless nutrients by those with sufficient digestion and/or bacteria?

What are the new rules, that we shouldn't eat anything that contains significant antinutrients or phytosterols or is not tasty, as determined by you, and we shouldn't soak anything because Paleolithic hunter gatherers allegedly didn't? How much phytosterols is too much? Are freezing and drying OK?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on March 04, 2014, 03:23:57 pm
Two things,, first is I don't think Iguana has any intention of mentioning it and promoting cooking... 

Well,  I use the word "rubbish" often when I would far rather use more explicit language: "Rubbish" is quite mild by comparison to what I would really like to say  when confronted with the more dodgy anti-raw arguments. I know Iguana is technically not wanting to be anti-raw, incidentally, but he is using a standard anti-raw argument:- the idea that if something contains  "only"    l) l) l)  small amounts of  toxins, that this is OK to eat.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on March 04, 2014, 03:53:38 pm
That's not really what I mean, Geoff.

Many substances can be either beneficial (nutrients) or noxious (anti-nutrients) depending on the circumstances: species of animal, dose, current state of the animal/ person, genetic differences between individuals, etc.

Not only the characteristics of the stuff must be considered, but also those of the animal who eats it. Thus, we have a relative and fluctuant situation with several variables.

It seems also obvious that at least some plants can be beneficial in small doses but toxic at a higher dose. Even an excessive intake of water can be deadly!
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Sorentus on March 05, 2014, 12:13:28 am
What is food for one can be poison for another, just because someone has eaten various food containing anti-nutriment that doesn't mean anyone else should be fine eating them and that goes for raw paleo or any other diet.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: LePatron7 on March 05, 2014, 01:58:32 am
It's interesting that there's so much bashing of plant foods, yet all the healthiest animals we eat (ruminants - cows, sheep, etc) all eat plants.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: nummi on March 05, 2014, 02:08:23 am
even true carnivorous animals eat plants. although it's rather more like nibbling on grasses once in a while. because there's something in them they need, like calcium, magnesium, iron, fiber, etc.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on March 05, 2014, 04:55:55 am
That's not really what I mean, Geoff.

Many substances can be either beneficial (nutrients) or noxious (anti-nutrients) depending on the circumstances: species of animal, dose, current state of the animal/ person, genetic differences between individuals, etc.

Not only the characteristics of the stuff must be considered, but also those of the animal who eats it. Thus, we have a relative and fluctuant situation with several variables.

It seems also obvious that at least some plants can be beneficial in small doses but toxic at a higher dose. Even an excessive intake of water can be deadly!

You are as usual missing the whole point, which is that plants deliberately produce those antinutrients in order to discourage animals from eating them. They are therefore never meant to be beneficial at all, in the first place.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on March 05, 2014, 04:59:24 am
So if chufas are still verboten despite being edible raw and Iguana liking their taste, then is the real problem with them not that they taste vile after all? I don't recall you mentioning before that chufas are too high in antinutrients/phytosterols. Did you find some information on that? How do you know they contain too much  antinutrients/phytosterols that can’t be mostly metabolized into harmless nutrients by those with sufficient digestion and/or bacteria?

What are the new rules, that we shouldn't eat anything that contains significant antinutrients or phytosterols or is not tasty, as determined by you, and we shouldn't soak anything because Paleolithic hunter gatherers allegedly didn't? How much phytosterols is too much? Are freezing and drying OK?
*sigh* As I pointed out to Iguana, if a plant has antinutrients, it has designed itself to NOT be eaten! Therefore it should be avoided.  As for how I found it out, I googled it, of course.  Palaeo guidelines anyway mean that foods high in antinutrients can be easily avoided if one follows them.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on March 05, 2014, 05:04:13 am
You are as usual missing the whole point,
Some weeks ago, you wrote "Iguana is right, as usual"!  ;D
Yeah, I'm fully aware of what you say, but still there are animals (called herbivores) who feed on those plants packed with antinutrients, as DaBoss pointed out.

*sigh* As I pointed out to Iguana, if a plant has antinutrients, it has designed itself to NOT be eaten! Therefore it should be avoided.  As for how I found it out, I googled it, of course.  Palaeo guidelines anyway mean that foods high in antinutrients can be easily avoided if one follows them.
Ok then, we’ll have to admit that hominids in the Paleolithic era refrained to eat chufas even if they liked it because they knew that a million years latter biochemists in their laboratories would find these little sweet things packed with plenty anti-nutrients. Why not, they must have had powerful shamans!

Are we here to have reasonable, logical discussions and info sharing or to remain deadlocked until our death into unchallengeable respective stances? 

Cheers
François 
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on March 05, 2014, 05:30:08 am
Some weeks ago, you wrote "Iguana is right, as usual"!  ;D
Yeah, I'm fully aware of what you say, but still there are animals (called herbivores) who feed on those plants packed with antinutrients, as DaBoss pointed out.
Ok then, we’ll have to admit that hominids in the Paleolithic era refrained to eat chufas even if they liked it because they knew that a million years latter biochemists in their laboratories would find these little sweet things packed with plenty anti-nutrients. Why not, they must have had powerful shamans!

Are we here to have reasonable, logical discussions and info sharing or to remain deadlocked until our death into unchallengeable respective stances? 

Cheers
François 

Those herbivores which eat such plants have specially adapted stomachs/digestive systems  designed to break down and counter the toxins in the plants. Even then, many animals which eat plants high in toxins often have to  resort to other tactics in order to deal with the toxins. For example, parrots eating plants high in antinutrients routinely feed on kaolin/clay  which helps get rid of the toxins.

Re the other  absurd claim:-  The whole point is that, due to our enhanced science, we know which foods to avoid and can do so. Palaeo peoples did not have access to such info so would have died from the accidental eating of a deathcap mushroom, say. Interestingly,  I recall one study of a typical hunter gatherer tribe which stated that they traditionally viewed tubers(like chufas) as low-grade food that they only ate during starvation-periods, whereas they far preferred the taste of meats etc.

I am appalled that you would use a standard anti-raw argument, re claiming that foods  with small amounts of toxins are "OK" - it's a lame argument and easily debunked, anyway.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on March 05, 2014, 05:48:54 am
I am appalled that you would use a standard anti-raw argument, re claiming that foods  with small amounts of toxins are "OK" - it's a lame argument and easily debunked, anyway.
No, I don't say that. I mean that the organisms have a capacity to detoxify a certain amount of toxins or "antinutrients" in a food, so the valuable nutrients in that food can be used. Only when the capacity of the body to detoxify those toxins is overwhelmed, then, and only then, the food becomes noxious. It's all a matter of correct dosing. 

You bring forward again the tale that paleo people would have accidentally die from ingesting a deathcap mushroom, ignoring the answer already given that GCB proved this doesn't happen when the mushroom is raw and unprocessed because its taste is bad. There are plenty of other kinds of poisonous plants in nature, but animals are still thriving on this planet because they avoid those plants,  and that without the help of modern science.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 05, 2014, 07:29:09 am
I know Iguana is technically not wanting to be anti-raw, incidentally, but he is using a standard anti-raw argument:- the idea that if something contains  "only"    l) l) l)  small amounts of  toxins, that this is OK to eat.
Do you mean that even small amounts of plant toxins are too much and should be avoided? Is there any safe amount? If so, how much?

*sigh* As I pointed out to Iguana, if a plant has antinutrients, it has designed itself to NOT be eaten! Therefore it should be avoided.  As for how I found it out, I googled it, of course.
So we should avoid all foods that contain any antinutrients, like the phytosterols you mentioned? Anything that needs soaking is just out, yes? Thanks for Googling it. How much phytosterols do chufas contain?

Re the other  absurd claim:-  The whole point is that, due to our enhanced science, we know which foods to avoid and can do so.
What is this enhanced science?

Quote
Interestingly,  I recall one study of a typical hunter gatherer tribe which stated that they traditionally viewed tubers(like chufas) as low-grade food that they only ate during starvation-periods, whereas they far preferred the taste of meats etc.
I think that was the Hadza tribe, yes?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on March 05, 2014, 03:56:31 pm
PP has repeated a post he made elsewhere, no point in replying.

Re GCB:- Sorry, but the claim sounds highly dodgy to me.
 I simply do not believe it.

Re the other point:- Yes, the body has a limited ability to handle minor toxins. But this poses a burden for the body. If that burden is constantly repeated through constant chufa consumption etc., even if the body can still handle it,  it means that the body will have expended resources it could have used elsewhere.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on March 05, 2014, 04:16:34 pm
It's no question to constantly repeat the consumption of chufas, but to just eat an amount limited by our instinct once in a way and only as it remains tasty.

The experiment with mushrooms can be very easily replicated by anyone. If a mushroom has an attractive smell, only then it may be carefully tested in the mouth several seconds before either spitting or swallowing it. I'm not scared to test any wild plant.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on March 05, 2014, 07:37:13 pm
It's no question to constantly repeat the consumption of chufas, but to just eat an amount limited by our instinct once in a way and only as it remains tasty.

The experiment with mushrooms can be very easily replicated by anyone. If a mushroom has an attractive smell, only then it may be carefully tested in the mouth several seconds before either spitting or swallowing it. I'm not scared to test any wild plant.
How many wild animals actually bother to test a wild plant before eating it? None, I'd say.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on March 05, 2014, 08:05:56 pm
Right: mammals' sense of smell seems to be much more powerful than ours, so they apparently rely on it and would not test anything if not attracted to it by their nose. A striking case is the elephants, who can move their nose around in search for food, instead of moving and constantly lowering the whole huge animal!  :)

For birds and fish, I don't know how they choose their food, I never bothered to search, but it could be interesting to know. Training by the parents is certainly also useful or even necessary.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 06, 2014, 11:26:34 am
This should help the open minded dispel some of the "Paleofantasies" about the Eskimos and Stone Agers:
Quote
A few weeks ago, we uncovered the secret to an ancient starchy tuber that is more nutrient dense than red meat and is absent from the modern "Paleo" diet.

We also learned that starchy forbs and grassy tubers dominated the landscape of the ice age. Our ancestors were even grinding starches on millstones at the peak of the ice age.

Today, in Part 1 of this two-part post, we begin to dismantle the myth of the Inuit and the Masai who supposedly ate no starch, no fibers and no prebiotics.

In fact, those cultures did eat animal starches and animal fibers. Unfortunately, unless one does their own hunting and eats part of their kills raw, those animal starches and fibers are all but missing from a modern low carb diet. ...

Read more at: Disrupting Paleo: Inuit and Masai Ate Carbs and Prebiotics, Part 1
http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 17, 2014, 05:21:16 am
In case anyone's still wondering why I'm not enamored with "the autoimmune protocol" [AIP] diet or chronic ZC/VLC Paleo as a long-term way of eating, or what sort of benefits resistant starch can offer, check out this Facebook comment from Robb Wolf, one of the leading proponents of the AIP and Paleo (emphasis mine):
Quote
Been doing RS (jumped right in at 4TBL/day...I guess I got lucky I did not explode) Purely subjective findings: Digestion is better than in past 15 years. My pesky problem of not tolerating the carbs I need to train MMA/BJJ is largely gone. I still partition more carbs PWO, have fewer on non-training days, but overall very impressed with the results. I bit leaner, good performance. In the past my concept of "gut health" largely started and stopped with "avoid gluten." Now I look at green plantain chips as a means to get "awesome poos" and stave off blood sugar wackyness. I would have called extreme BS on this as I;ve always eaten a ton of greens, squash etc but I find Richard does not align with silly shit AND the solution was like $2/bag. When shit is that cheap, it's got to work.

January 21 at 10:18pm https://www.facebook.com/rnikoley/posts/10151979889556137 (https://www.facebook.com/rnikoley/posts/10151979889556137)
If you aren't a Facebook member, it's also available here, along with some commentary: http://freetheanimal.com/2014/01/great-potato-starch.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/01/great-potato-starch.html)

I think with his last sentence he means that if lots of folks are reporting good results from something and there's no big profit motive, then there is likely something more to it than marketing hype.

I've noticed that the type of diet for which devotees and promoters seem to most highly recommend and talk about iodine and magnesium supplements is chronic VLC/ZC. It's one of the many things that tipped me off that going too far in that direction might not be wise in the longer term.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on March 17, 2014, 05:38:58 am
AIP, TBL, PWO, MMA/BJJ, BS? Sorry, I don’t understand that language!  :(
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 17, 2014, 06:10:41 am
AIP is autoimmune protocol

These are what I think Robb meant:

TBL = tablespoons
PWO = post workout
MMA = mixed martial arts
BJJ = Brazilian jiu-jitsu
BS = bull shit  :D
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Iguana on March 17, 2014, 06:16:30 am
Thanks! I suspected that for BS, but had no clue for the others!
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on March 18, 2014, 11:42:20 am
Being well versed in the art of B.S..... I believe that there is room for a little give and take in this argument, regarding our capacity to adapt to anti nutrients and such.

Naturally organisms wish to maintain homeostasis, so whenever environmental stability would allow, creatures will develop specialized diets so as to limit their exposures to mutigenic compounds. These mutigenic compounds that an organism is exposed to when consuming foods outside of their habitual range, will cause physical discomfort , sickness, and will trigger the beginning of mutagenesis which is the process by which adaptation is passed to the next generation.

Having adapted to a particular diet an organism becomes dependent on a limited variety of food stuffs, from which its own DNA has become accustom Organisms will instinctively avoid mutagenic compounds that may jeopardize their present sense of well being. The bitter taste or unpleasant taste warns one that there is something to be avoided. Only as a last resort, when the pains of hunger and the prospects of starvation become present, will an organism dare to ingest material that they would instinctively avoid during times of plenty.

Mutegenisis is often a result of environmental changes which force an organism to consume foodstuffs outside of its genetically adapted comfort zone. More often than not it is a matter of survival which drives the desperate and dieing to consume foods which would normally be avoided. The results of the process of ingesting foods that one isn't fully mutagenically adapted are highly unpredictable, and the genetic changes that result of this are passed down to the next generation. The process has been mislabeled in the past as "random mutation" and I believe the word Mutagenesis a is more accurate term. Its often a brutal process which leads to deformity and failures of subsequent generations, which are dealt with through the process of " natural selection". For those who survive, the transnational changes provide the means by which an organism can mutagenically adapt to a change in environment.
 
Through our evolutionary history we have had long periods of relative stability, followed by times of incredible and drastic change. There is no doubt that our dietary past has left its mark, and has lead us to be the most adaptable omnivore on the planet.

The New science of micro RNA shows us how the food we eat actually is assimilated into our DNA. Over time dietary changes will reprogram our genes in order to facilitate Adaption. All life springs forth from a single source, and the genetic material of all the organic matter we consume infuses with our own genetics and alters the expression of our own biological workings, in a synergistic way, that works toward maintaining a balance and harmony between an organism and the environment composed of other organisms. It would greatly benefit the progress of scientific understanding if these discoveries where more clearly understood by the mainstream.

This process of adaption to the intake of organic sustenance of genetically unfamiliar sources is often not very pleasant, and for animals to become adapted to the anti-nutrients, bio-toxins, and mutagens, contained in historically alien food stuff, there are negative consequences. The great plagues and scourges of our history are a testament to the painful process of adaption. Though, while many who attempted to survive off of foodstuffs they were ill adapted too, were wiped out and annihilated by natural selection..... there were those who were able to develop the genetic adaption necessary to survive on grain rich, cooked diets full of bio-toxins and anti-nutrients.

In digression, I am one who feels like there are many layers to the discussion, and though some segments of the human population have been able to adapt to significant amounts of anti-nutrient rich neolithic foodstuffs, that does not mean that these foods are optimal.

Even though some may have an adapted to handling these modern foods, these adaptions are so new that they have yet to work all the bugs out of the program. Also the environment is continuing to be polluted and degradated at a rate far beyond the capacity of any organisms capacity to adapt. It should be obvious to people on this forum that many people are still struggling to conform to these complex and artificially concocted changes to the human diet that began in Neolithic times, and have reach a level of out of control insanity within our present day. 

For the people who are not suited to consuming the high levels of anti-nutrients, caramelized proteins, vegetable oils and refined carbohydrates which make up the base of the modern diet, there is a better way. The paleo diet can lead you back to more stable dietary default setting which remain hidden deep within in our genetic hard drives, awaiting the signal to reactivate.   
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Inger on March 18, 2014, 03:22:17 pm
I think it has to do with our redox potential... a lot. If it is great you can take so much more.

Sadly, our modern world easily destroys that redox potential of ours.

More about redox if you are interested. A very much recommended read;

http://jackkruse.com/redox-rx/ (http://jackkruse.com/redox-rx/)

Quote

  1.  How do I test or measure my redox potential?
  2.  How do I improve my redox potential?
  3.  How is the redox potential described in summary?






Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on March 19, 2014, 09:39:05 am
Quote
"Dreaming is usually a sign of a good redox potential. A strong redox potential means you membranes have a lot of stored charge in them."

http://jackkruse.com/redox-rx (http://jackkruse.com/redox-rx)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on April 13, 2014, 09:00:34 pm
Here's another incentive to not do chronic ZC:
Quote
As Grilling Season Arrives, Beef Prices On the Rise [USA]
April 13, 2014 By David Williams
http://argyllfreepress.com/2014/04/13/as-grilling-season-arrives-beef-prices-on-the-rise/ (http://argyllfreepress.com/2014/04/13/as-grilling-season-arrives-beef-prices-on-the-rise/)

Just in time for this year’s grilling season, beef prices have risen to their highest point in 27 years. This has taken consumer and restaurants by surprise with relief likely not to happen anytime in the near future.

As cattle herds dwindle and the export demand increases from countries such as Japan and China, the average cost of retail fresh beef has climbed to $5.28 per pound as of February. That price was nearly 25 cents higher than in January and the highest the country has seen since 1987.

Everything being produced is consumed, said one analyst and prices likely will remain high for the next few years as producers of cattle start rebuilding their herds amidst questions about whether the Midwest and Southwest will have enough rain to help pastures replenish.

...cattle herds are the smallest in the nation since 1951

Meat and egg prices have indeed been rising in my area.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Sorentus on April 14, 2014, 12:22:39 am
I'm doing zero carb because I believe I have a rare case of critical small bacteria overgrowth, the slightest carb or fiber makes me gassy and have major discomfort and every time I reach ketosis these critter drive me insane, I become so hungry no matter how much I eat and I crave carbs, carbs and more carb and then its a vicious cycle, I binge on it , even in small amount and then I feel like complete shit for days until I fail and eat carbs when I reach ketosis again. last night I had peanut butter since I didn't have it in 7 months, I couldn't sleep over how bad I wanted it. Now I'm likely sick again, I'l try and go all out zero carb.

I took smoked marijuana, i drank coffee for years and I had to give up all my favorite foods, habits without exception since becoming ill, but this hunger feeling is like a withdrawal that CANNOT go away. I'm sure all these bacterias are playing with my brain hormones.

I'm giving one more month with the hookworms and if I see no release, I'm going all out killing all these ****ers. Natural antibiotics and if it fail I'm, taking real ones. These bastard are a though case, I mean, I'm starving them of their sugar so surely they'll do everything to survive.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: edmon171 on April 14, 2014, 05:17:33 am
I have been chronic ZC for years and mostly chronic VLC for a decade before that. I have become metabolically resistant to weight loss from gaining and losing the same 100lb over and over. If I start eating starch or sugar I have somehow developed the ability to gain weight faster than I can eat it, nevermind lose it. Two weeks of carbs can set me back 3 months of weight loss on strict ZC. Also, I get itchy, gassy, smelly, depressed, mood swings, asthma, intense hunger and cravings for the worst poison junk food, skin problems, I sleep an extra 4 hours and still feel like shit when I drag myself out of bed, catch frequent colds, there is more but I've made my point. I'm like an addict, if I let it go on long enough you will find me in a car littered with chocolate wrappers and fast food bags maxing out my last credit card at the mcdonalds drive thru. I say no thank you to all of that, I will take ketosis for life whatever the alleged consequences. I'm almost 100% sure the people who had problems were making one of the big three mistakes: cheating too frequently to fully adapt to burning fatty acids in the body directly and reserving most ketones for the brain, eating such a large amount of protein that it converts to glucose and resets adaptation, or not drastically increasing the fat intake for normal weight people.

About the resistant starch and gut bacteria, If I am eating raw meat then my gut will be populated with the right bacteria for what I am eating. Why do I need to feed starch to the the starch eating bacteria? This is why I stopped taking probiotics. One day I just realized, "wtf am I doing? These bacteria are for digesting lactose and fermenting plant cellulose. I don't have any of that in my diet. The probiotics must be just dieing and getting eaten by the other bacteria, what a waste of money."
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: colorles on May 11, 2014, 09:54:21 pm
hello, my name is colorles. as you can see i'm a newly joined member, although i have been reading some of the threads on this site well since sometime last year. and having read through this thread has finally motivated me to join the place. for starters though i have one question: this thread seems to have transitioned through a few different subtopics, and lastly seems to be focused on gut bacteria. and thus my question is, isn't the stomach of a functional carnivore supposed to be sterile, due to the potency of the stomach acid? isn't it the stomach(s) of functional herbivores that need all the bacteria to help break down hard to digest plant matter?

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 11, 2014, 10:18:02 pm
Welcome Colorles. Carnivore stomachs are not sterile and most of their GI tract bacteria is in the intestines, rather than the stomach.

Humans are not carnivores and we also have most of the GI bacteria in the intestines. When people talk about "gut bacteria" for humans they generally refer mainly to the bacteria in the colon and cecum.

Humans do not have sterile GI tracts even before birth. The sterile fetus notion turned out to be a horribly bogus myth that has probably contributed to untold unnecessary suffering:
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/gut-bacteria/msg118616/#msg118616 (http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/gut-bacteria/msg118616/#msg118616)

A mountain of evidence has been accumulating that prebiotics, such as pectin, resistant starch, oligosaccharides, inulin, gums, and mucins, are crucially important over the longer term to human health. For example:

Pectin - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100119213138.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100119213138.htm)

Resistant starch -
Quote
If you want to convince me resistant starch lowers blood sugar, show me the studies where it’s added to the diet, not used to replace white flour.

Oops.

Turns out those studies exist and have been around for decades. ...

despite being labeled as “starch,” resistant starch doesn’t turn to glucose in your body.  It resists digestion (thus the term) until it reaches your colon, where it feeds your gut bacteria – and that’s where the benefits kick in.  The good gut bacteria digest the resistant starch and release butyrate, a short-chain fatty acid, as a result.  Yup, eating a “starch” produces good fats in your colon.

And although the exact biological mechanism isn’t known (at least according to the research I’ve read), something about the process increases insulin sensitivity and leads to lower blood sugar, both before and after meals.  Let’s see … glucose control, insulin control, gut health … isn’t that what drew most of us to a low-carb paleo diet in the first place?

- Tom Naughton, the "Fathead" low carb blogger and promoter of skeptical scientific thinking
http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2014/04/14/revisiting-resistant-starch-part-one/ (http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2014/04/14/revisiting-resistant-starch-part-one/)
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/60/4/544.short (http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/60/4/544.short)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8695600 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8695600)
http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v95/n4/abs/ajg2000259a.html (http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v95/n4/abs/ajg2000259a.html)
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-06282005-175436/unrestricted/ALDfinal.pdf (http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-06282005-175436/unrestricted/ALDfinal.pdf)
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/2/276.full (http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/2/276.full)
http://images.abbottnutrition.com/ANHI/MEDIA/Second%20Meal%20Effect%20Review%20and%20Citation%20Table.pdf (http://images.abbottnutrition.com/ANHI/MEDIA/Second%20Meal%20Effect%20Review%20and%20Citation%20Table.pdf)
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/3/651.full (http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/3/651.full)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%253Adoi%252F10.1371%252Fjournal.pone.0015046 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%253Adoi%252F10.1371%252Fjournal.pone.0015046)

Oligosaccharides - http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/271641.php (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/271641.php)

Inulin - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24724475 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24724475)

Tree gums - http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Gum-arabic-shows-prebiotic-potential-in-humans-Study (http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Gum-arabic-shows-prebiotic-potential-in-humans-Study)

Mucins - http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html)

And on and on...

The various subtopics in this thread all relate to the broader topic of the Old Friends Hypothesis and the importance of microorganisms to human health. One of the biggest problems with VLC/ZC diets has been that most of them have largely ignored or even dismissed this important aspect of human health.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: colorles on May 11, 2014, 11:56:21 pm
than you PaleoPhil for the response, i will read all of those links in due time. the only thing i will say at the moment about the argument of whether humans are carnivores or not, is that that depends on just what definition of "carnivore" we are using (also what comes into play is the regional adaptations of the various races of humanity). you know, because most functional carnivores will still eat plant matter like wild berries for instance, if they come across it in the wild (which of course is relatively rare, which is why it is such a treat). obligate carnivores of course, will not (they do not even have the taste buds to register such things). so technically given that most functional carnivores will eat plant matter from time to time, does that make them omnivores? well, technically. but still functional, hunting carnivores that attain most of their satiation from killed prey. compare that to true omnivores like bears or pigs, which can healthy sustain themselves on mostly carbs

humans, simply put cannot healthy sustain themselves on mostly carbs. simply cant, it causes too much damage to the arteries over time through lesions and plaque build up (the true cause of heart disease and so many ailments). and having read your posts before, i know very well you are not saying to completely disregard animal foods, so of course i am not putting those words into your mouth. i'm just saying that if you examine the digestive track of a human and compare it to a similar pack hunting creature like a wolf, the similarities are obvious. the traditional tribal lifestlye of humans compared to the packs of wolves...the similarities are obvious. both species even have similar eye expressions, which is why we can communicate so well without words. its no coincidence, humans and wolves once occupied that same niche ie pack hunting predators. oportunistic pack hunting predators that would not pass up some fresh berries and such, or pretty much anything edible if found, but pack hunting predators that in the wild needed to obtain the vast majority of their food from hunted prey, nonetheless. which is why feel that eating a "wolf diet" is most ideal especially for a northerner like myself

long story short: humans, like wolves are most accurately described as opportunistic pack hunting functional carnivores. which means the staple of the diet is animal foods, supplemented by occasion and/or seasonal plant matter (most likely berries)

but i thank you for your response, and i will look into all this fuss about resistant starch and company
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 12, 2014, 01:07:22 am
Yes, I am very familiar with the fact that there are facultative as well as obligate carnivores and have written extensively about it in this forum. I even referred to my diet as a "raw facultative carnivore" diet for some years until the evidence (my further inquiries into the scientific research, the reported experiences of others and my own experience) tilted my opinion toward "omnivore" or "adaptivore" being a more accurate descriptor of humans and a better direction for myself.

I didn't argue that facultative carnivores eating plant matter from time to time makes them omnivores, nor that people can sustain themselves healthfully eating "mostly carbs," nor that human and wolf digestive tracts and lifestyles do not have similarities. Thus, when it comes to me, they are irrelevant straw man arguments.

I still eat a relatively low carb diet myself. Anyone who has read my past posts knows that I haven't advocated for a high-carb diet (I have seen reports that some people, including whole tribes, have done well on >50% of calories as carbs, but my own carb tolerance is currently still too low to even bother contemplating such things much at present), and that my past leanings were actually towards facultative carnivory.

Humans are not only predators, but also gatherers. There are similarities between wolves and humans, but we are not wolves, we are humans (primates). I don't feel that a chronic "wolf diet" is ideal for me over the long term (nor a high carb diet, for that matter, at least not at present). You are free too eat what you wish, of course.

The difference between facultative carnivores and omnivores/adaptivores is a complex gray area, not that large, and prone to confusion. It's only a small logical step from one to the other. It may help avoid confusion to instead focus on the topics of getting enough of the right foods to feed one's beneficial microbiota, keep the GI tract (pH balance, tight junctions, butyrate level, etc.) healthy, and avoid problems of excessive chronic VLCing without greatly exceeding one's individual carb tolerance.

"Starch" is a dirty word for many VLCers (and thus the term "resistant starch" was a bit off-putting to me at first), so it may help to think more in other terms like prebiotics, butyrate (a fat), the Old Friends Hypothesis, the microbiome and such, to get around the starch stumbling block.

Good luck with your inquiries and with whatever course you chart, Colorles.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on May 12, 2014, 02:14:13 am

The various subtopics in this thread all relate to the broader topic of the Old Friends Hypothesis and the importance of microorganisms to human health. One of the biggest problems with VLC/ZC diets has been that most of them have largely ignored or even dismissed this important aspect of human health.

I will agree in part,
In order to fully adapt to any diet there must be a baseline level of healthy gut microbes that work in tune with the foodstuff ingested by their host.

The gut ecology of carnivorous animals is vastly different from omnivores, and it can be difficult for people who have lived their entire developmental years inhabited by one micro-biome( of the SAD diet) to fully transition to a diet that favors a completely different (Raw Paleo) based gut ecology.

Its obvious that standard probiotics will not be very helpful for those transitioning away from carbohydrate rich diets toward a ketogenic one. I agree with Phil that there are starches which could be more beneficial to carnivorous low carb dieters than other forms of carbohydrate.

I have been an a low carb diet for some time and have experimented with different prebiotic carbs that I can tolerate. I do need some carbs every day to feel optimal, around 30 to 50 a day now. I have been relying on coconut to meet my basic needs, but have been experimenting with other varieties. I will eat some salad greens, with herbs and tomatoes and avocados. I will also top of my salad with some artichoke, or palm hearts. It has taken a long time to figure out just what foods will work in supporting good gut ecology without disrupting my fat burning metabolic capability.

Many plant fibers and carbs do not work well with me, and many starchy and fibrous vegetables will make me feel bloated

Everything is so lush and green now, and I would like to begin foraging for wild forms of vegetation that I may be better adapted to....

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: colorles on May 12, 2014, 02:26:44 am
as i said, i didn't intend to put words in your mouth. i was more or less just responding to your point "humans are not carnivores"

i wouldn't turn down simple sources of carbs, in moderation. and during the autumn in particular i'l eat pears from my family pear tree in abundance (and of course share the harvest with friends and such), even if i normally don't eat larger fruits like that. but what they are to me at least, is nothing more than a supplement, an addition to an already solid mainstay diet of animal foods. and from what you have written, we seem to come to an accord on such, with the exception of the starches and the like. which, is something completely new to me, and from what i have read some of the longerstanding posters here as well. so as i said, it is something i will no doubt look into

i more or less just eat what feels right, and what fits according to the balanced and healthy paced lifestyle i am living a day at a time (not to mention climate). the body tends to know what it needs, at any given time (and of course eventually you learn to be able to tell the difference between drug like cravings to certain foods, which dissipate over time, and the bodies actual honest need for certain kinds of foods). i should know from my past, not to get too obsessive with anything, and that applies to diet. hence why even if i clearly favor one type of food over another, well nature itself tends to ensure that i eat a natural variety of things (after all, nature ensures that there are various berries to eat in the summer, plenty of fresh pears in the autumn to eat like i said, not to mention cranberries, and well as humans we have the ability to dry our food, so i have no doubt that paleo humans, at least some paleo humans would have learned to dry fruits and berries and store them throughout the winter. because even as the hunters of large fauna, any smart creature would take advantage of other food sources and the potential for food storage. same thing applies to smoking meats, which i firmly believe was one of if not the first usage of fire on meats. after all, which smart creature would not take advantage of the ability to store dried meats? but i digress)

point being, nature is willing to lay a path for you, if you are willing to listen
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on May 12, 2014, 03:18:45 am
I think you're right, Sabertooth, that at least some, and perhaps many, people need to transition between dietary types slowly and carefully, especially the longer they have been doing the prior type.

Colorles, I regard plant foods as more than supplements, especially if certain animal foods that are higher in prebiotics and carbs are not plentiful, such as fresh, frozen or fermented raw sea mammal foods like muktuk (up to 25% carbs and plenty of prebiotics, http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2014/03/disrupting-carbs-prebiotics.html)).

I agree that we need to pay attention to signals from our own bodies, and also pay attention to the health of the 90% or so of our cells that are made up by the commensal microorganisms within and on us, which is not as easily detected.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on May 16, 2014, 10:47:00 am
Plastic zippers are sooo not paleo!
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: political atheist on August 09, 2015, 07:32:14 pm
does mature coconut meat and coconut flour and avocados contain RS?

does soaked and/ or sprouted nuts/seeds contain RS?

does fermented veggies contain RS?

plantain must be green like bananas to get the RS?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 10, 2015, 03:46:27 am
does mature coconut meat and coconut flour and avocados contain RS?
No. Resistant starch is in foods that contain starch. Coconut fiber likely contains other prebiotic microbiota-accessible carbs (MACs), though I don't know what type.

does soaked and/ or sprouted nuts/seeds contain RS? - Some do (such as chestnuts, cashews, and sunflower seeds), sprouted contain less.

Tiger nuts are another nut-like food, though they are actually a marsh sedge tuber (water chestnuts are also marsh sedge tubers that contain plenty of RS). Tiger nuts reportedly "contain almost twice the starch of potatoes" http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/blog/tigernuts-the-original-superfood. (http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/blog/tigernuts-the-original-superfood.) They have been consumed by humans and proto-humans for at least a couple million years, back before even the earliest estimated date of 1.9 mya for the start of cooking (and most at this forum don't think cooking started that early). http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140109003949.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140109003949.htm)

does fermented veggies contain RS? - most do not, but they do contain other prebiotic MACs, such as oligosaccharides.

plantain must be green like bananas to get the RS? - No, but the more green, the higher the RS content. I like plantains slightly ripened (still mostly green) and dried. I often also dry them while very green. Bananas don't dry very well, so I like them a bit more ripe and eat them at various stages of ripeness.

Here is a list of the RS content of various foods (most, but not all, are typically cooked):

http://freetheanimal.com/2013/08/resistant-starch-content-of-foods-other-anecdote-and-miscellania.html (http://freetheanimal.com/2013/08/resistant-starch-content-of-foods-other-anecdote-and-miscellania.html)

Some also say that jicama contains starch (and therefore RS), but there are conflicting reports on that. Jicama has been reported by some to taste similar to //ekwa tubers, which do contain starch (up to almost 3 times as much starch as cooked russet potatoes), and therefore RS:

"Among the 5 species of //ekwa tubers, the starch content range was from 5.0 g/100 g to 51.1 g/100 g."
Composition of Tubers Used by Hadza Foragers of Tanzania
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/anthro/bec/papers/Schoeninger1.pdf (http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/anthro/bec/papers/Schoeninger1.pdf)

Raw russet potato, 15.9 g / 100 g
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2547/2 (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2547/2)

Potatoes, Russet, flesh and skin, baked, 17.4 g / 100 g
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2550/2 (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2550/2)

The Hadza (Hadzabe) have been reported to often eat //ekwa tubers raw or briefly cooked (one Hadza man said that they minimally cook tubers and only because it makes it easier to remove the skins, not to improve taste or digestibility--though that was just one report from one individual and therefore not conclusive, of course).
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Satya on August 25, 2015, 06:03:12 am
Hi Phil.  Looks like I found a new place to debate you on RS.  -d  Doesn't RS have a topic of its own though? 

Isn't it true that the microbes that eat RS can also consume other non starch polysaccharides (fiber) and so really, consuming starch is not actually necessary to feed these guys?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 25, 2015, 06:12:59 am
Hi Phil.  Looks like I found a new place to debate you on RS.  -d  Doesn't RS have a topic of its own though?
Somewhere, yeah. I said most of what was on my mind about it and the questions and responses were getting redundant, so I stopped contributing to it. I'm also not into hard-selling others on things, just sharing info so folks can decide for themselves.

Quote
Isn't it true that the microbes that eat RS can also consume other non starch polysaccharides (fiber) and so really, consuming starch is not actually necessary to feed these guys?
Wouldn't that apply vice-versa too? Why pick on only RS? Could it be because it has the evil word "starch" in it? ;)

I'm not as huge a fan of RS-rich foods as some folks (I actually started out as a skeptic of it in this forum and have debated some of the RS superfans elsewhere too :) ), and haven't had the miraculous results that some did, but I have found them to be a net plus overall (for example, just yesterday my aunt said I was looking better--even "younger" :) ), even though I was already eating the other prebiotic foods touted by LCers as alternatives to RS, and don't see a reason to exclude all the RS foods simply because of the word "starch." That said, I wouldn't want anyone to eat any type of food just because I had fairly good early results with it.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Satya on August 25, 2015, 09:22:45 pm
Wouldn't that apply vice-versa too? Why pick on only RS? Could it be because it has the evil word "starch" in it? ;)

Starch is not necessarily evil, but it depends upon genetic context, as some people can digest it better than others (eg, Masterjohn showed vast genetic variation in the number of amylase genes).  But the reductionist isolation approach to RS, which has often been to eat raw potato starch has been perhaps a bigger problem for some people than a vlc ketogenic approach ever was or will be. You foment against vlc...or rather foam at the mouth about here, ;D yet the RS experiment is pretty much the same ball of wax, is it not? 

I am simply stating that for people who want to avoid starches, eating fiber can feed the beasties so they don't have to compromise - for whatever reason - and eat things they may not do well with.

Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on August 25, 2015, 10:29:44 pm
I also notice that many RS foods have other antinutrient or digestive agitative factors which people who lack the amylase and microbes to break down, have trouble with.

That's why I am extremely picky about my carb choices, and notice that some plant fibers and starches are more compatible with my particular needs than others.

I've started experimenting with concocting home made dirt smoothies, I was looking at my compost pile which is composed of vegetable waste, meat waste and a little peat moss, that has been tilled into a black soil by my chickens. Once fully broken down I noticed how rich it looked and how clean and earthy it smelled, so I grabbed a handful mixed it with water and threw it into the blendtec, and presto I have invented the ultimate prebiotic smoothie.

Its still in the early stages, but after two weeks of drinking dirty water, I haven't had any issues and my bowels are working fine.

Its funny that people spend a fortune juicing and blending organic veggies, or experiment with processed raw starches in order to build gut ecology or cleanse out bad gut ecology, when a much more rational and economic solution may just be to eat dirt?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: political atheist on August 26, 2015, 01:59:23 am
i read that old timers who are now 100 years old, pretty much healthy and strong independent, ate raw potatoes like apples.. thats 100% raw natural RS

anybody eats/ate raw potatoes?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: TylerDurden on August 26, 2015, 03:11:21 am
I gather that only sweet potatoes are truly edible, the other types have far too many antinutrient levels in them.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Satya on August 26, 2015, 04:16:50 am
I've started experimenting with concocting home made dirt smoothies, I was looking at my compost pile which is composed of vegetable waste, meat waste and a little peat moss, that has been tilled into a black soil by my chickens. Once fully broken down I noticed how rich it looked and how clean and earthy it smelled, so I grabbed a handful mixed it with water and threw it into the blendtec, and presto I have invented the ultimate prebiotic smoothie.

What's wrong with you?  You could be ca$hing in big time on your dirt smoothie idea!  In fact, not only is it prebiotic and probiotic, it's postbiotic too, as it comes from the compost heap and may contain chicken droppings!  Think of the raw paleo parties you could throw with the profits from your invention,.  Better get cracking before someone else steals your thunder.  ;)
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: jessica on August 26, 2015, 06:40:23 am
sweet potatoes are high oxalates, which can fuck some people up.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 26, 2015, 10:20:40 am
Starch is not necessarily evil, but it depends upon genetic context, as some people can digest it better than others (eg, Masterjohn showed vast genetic variation in the number of amylase genes).
And there is also much more to it than genes. There are also microbes, epigenetics, enzymes, and other cofactors. 

I don't advocate a reductionist isolation approach focused only on Bob's Red Mill PS. Even Tatertot from the start advocated whole food sources too. He is much more strongly positive about BRM PS than me and loves to answer questions about it at an MDA thread on it, and he knows more about it than me. So if you're looking for someone to debate about it with, he's your man. :)

i read that old timers who are now 100 years old, pretty much healthy and strong independent, ate raw potatoes like apples.. thats 100% raw natural RS

anybody eats/ate raw potatoes?
Yes, my grandfather used to eat raw potatoes now and then, though probably not enough to attribute health benefits to, and I eat some small, fresh raw potatoes, preferably organic. Raw potato juice is also an old folk remedy. I find high quality raw potatoes to be more digestible and tastier than most sweet potatoes, though I'm not a big fan of sweet potatoes, haven't seen very small sweet potatoes yet, and haven't tried the variety(ies) of sweet potatoes that are commonly eaten raw. I have seen people with nightshade allergies or digestive or microbial issues report problems with raw potatoes (or RPS) and I'm not telling anyone else what to do, but I haven't had any significant problems with them, FWIW, aside from a tiny bit of tingling in my upper mouth/throat from some.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: sabertooth on August 26, 2015, 10:30:22 pm
My granny told me about my great grandparents occasionally biting into raw potatoes, and eating whole raw onions.
They also ate fermented Beans and Sweet Potatoes, these people were dirt poor and lived like mountain goats, eating practically anything they could to keep from going hungry.

What's wrong with you?  You could be ca$hing in big time on your dirt smoothie idea!  In fact, not only is it prebiotic and probiotic, it's postbiotic too, as it comes from the compost heap and may contain chicken droppings!  Think of the raw paleo parties you could throw with the profits from your invention,.  Better get cracking before someone else steals your thunder.  ;)


Homemade probiotic dirt supplements is kind of a hard sell these days, back in the depression days my granny made mud pies, and her brother would be given worms by my great grandmother as a snack. They lived in dirt running barefoot through the chicken coops and pig stys and the produce they ate was not triple washed.

Its just a bit funny knowing what I have learned, that people would pay lots of money to have some special clay delivered to their home, and for probiotic powders and tablets. When they could just take a little time to cultivate their own.... But people are fearful, and no doubt the clean and pure dirt my grandparents wallowed in as children has been tainted. People are now so afraid of tainted dirt that they have to have some organizations assurance that everything is pure and completely free of " Pathogenic Bacteria"

Could you imagine the shitstorm the FDA would have is someone like me ever tried to market Raw edible compost that contained rotten animal flesh and possibly chicken shit?
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: Projectile Vomit on August 26, 2015, 11:25:13 pm
I also eat raw potatoes sometimes, as well as a range of other raw tubers. Sometimes I blend them into smoothies, sometimes slice them thin and add them to wild green salads. I recall the first few times I did this I got gas, but after that it's been fine. Seems to me that our microbiomes take time to adjust to new eating practices, but it does adjust.

Dirt smoothies sounds intriguing. I might try that.
Title: Re: Zero Carb and VLC/Ketogenic - A Lethal Recipe for Disaster
Post by: PaleoPhil on August 27, 2015, 06:10:13 am
My granny told me about my great grandparents occasionally biting into raw potatoes, and eating whole raw onions.
They also ate fermented Beans and Sweet Potatoes, these people were dirt poor and lived like mountain goats, eating practically anything they could to keep from going hungry.
Impressive.


Clay is different than dirt, and there are differences between clays, though I wouldn't be surprised if there's some good clay around my area somewhere. It's another old folk knowledge that has been largely forgotten.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirt)
http://kremesti.com/water/silt_clay_mud.htm (http://kremesti.com/water/silt_clay_mud.htm)

Some wild elephants travel hundreds of miles or "make perilous nocturnal climbs to hillside caves" to obtain the choicest clays, which they return to each year, with some dying from the hard journey or falls. http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/22/science/clay-eating-proves-widespread-but-reason-is-uncertain.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/22/science/clay-eating-proves-widespread-but-reason-is-uncertain.html) Quality clay is apparently a matter of life or death for the elephants. Those that don't reach good enough clays in time at least once per year die, according to one documentary I saw.

Elephants are also able to communicate better via clay soils that better conduct the soundwaves from their vocalizations:
Elphants' toes get the message (http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2007/06/28/elephants_toes_get_the_message_study_finds/?page=full)

I also eat raw potatoes sometimes, as well as a range of other raw tubers. Sometimes I blend them into smoothies, sometimes slice them thin and add them to wild green salads. I recall the first few times I did this I got gas, but after that it's been fine. Seems to me that our microbiomes take time to adjust to new eating practices, but it does adjust.
I haven't had the mouth tingling from any raw potatoes in a while. I wonder if I'm better adapted now too. I've never gotten any gas from them, so I guess I started off able to digest them pretty well, which is not that surprising given that I was raised on plenty of potatoes.